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Constitutional to Expel Law Student for Writing "[W]hatever Harvard Professor Noel Ignatiev Meant by … '[A]bolish the White Race by Any Means Necessary' … Must Be Done with Jews"
An Eleventh Circuit panel concludes (by a 2-1 vote) that this is likely the right result.
From yesterday's Eleventh Circuit order in Damsky v. Summerlin, written by Judge Elizabeth Branch, joined by Judge Barbara Lagoa; note that the logic could equally apply to other posts that could reasonably be seen as advocating violence, such as "Globalize the Intifada," calls for attacks on ICE agents, and the like:
The University of Florida ("UF") expelled Preston Damsky, a law student, for posts he made on X (formerly Twitter), including one post that stated, "Jews must be abolished by any means necessary." Damsky then sued Chris Summerlin, UF's Dean of Students, arguing that UF violated his First Amendment rights. UF now appeals the district court's order granting Damsky a preliminary injunction and requiring UF to reinstate him as a student. We find that UF is likely to succeed on the merits because Damsky's speech was likely not protected by the First Amendment.
UF was allowed to regulate Damsky's speech because, particularly when read in context, his statements were reasonably interpreted as a call for extralegal violence that caused a serious disruption to other students' educational experiences and the school's ability to provide its services. Accordingly, we grant UF's motion for a stay of the district court's injunction pending appeal….
In 2024, Damsky wrote two seminar papers as part of his coursework at UF's Levin College of Law ("UF Law") in which he argued that the United States was founded as a race-based nation state and that our Constitution will survive only if we share a commitment to racial nationalism. One of Damsky's papers warned that "White America" faced a "demographic assault" and stated that if the judiciary does not remedy that issue, then overthrowing the government may be necessary if "they are to survive as masters in the land of their ancestors." In another paper Damsky argued that "[t]he hour is late, but we are not yet so outnumbered and so neutered that we cannot seize back what is rightfully ours."
Because Damsky submitted a draft of his work as part of a peer review process, other students obtained copies of his wntmg. Some of Damsky's classmates began raising safety concerns to UF and began avoiding Damsky when possible. A classmate later testified at a disciplinary hearing that when he asked Damsky what he meant to argue in his papers, Damsky confirmed that his writing made "a call for extralegal violence" or "a call for contemporary racial violence." At the time, the interim dean of UF Law decided not to take any disciplinary action against Damsky and concluded that any statements he made in his academic work were protected by the First Amendment.
A few months later, Damsky made a public post on X that stated, "My position on Jews is simple: whatever Harvard professor Noel Ignatiev meant by his call to 'abolish the White race by any means necessary' is what I think must be done with Jews. Jews must be abolished by any means necessary."
A Jewish UF Law professor publicly responded to Damsky from her X account asking "Are you saying you would murder me and my family? Is that your position?" Damsky replied, again publicly, "Did Ignatiev want Whites murdered? If so, were his words as objectionable as mine? If Ignatiev sought genocide, then surely a genocide of all Whites would be an even greater outrage than a genocide of all Jews, given the far greater number of Whites." The exchange ended with the professor responding to Damsky "I notice you didn't say no, but instead resorted to a whataboutism … Yes, his words are despicable, but you implicitly admit yours are, too."
In response to Damsky's posts, the interim dean took various measures to ensure campus safety including "increas[ing] police patrols and cameras and instituting increased security measures prior to final exams." Faculty, students, and staff also reacted to Damsky's speech:
[S]ome students skipped class or were late to class and did not feel safe disclosing the reason for their lateness or missing. Some students skipped academic activities, some students left campus, one law school staff member, who had asked to have her photograph taken down from the law school's website because of her Jewish surname, resigned, community members feared going to events on campus, and some students were spooked by loud sounds in the classroom.
Following this exchange on X, UF placed Damsky on an interim suspension and denied him access to campus. While he was suspended, Damsky was enrolled in classes and permitted to attend school remotely. After a disciplinary hearing, UF expelled Damsky….
The District Court ruled the expulsion violated the First Amendment, and ordered UF to reinstate Damsky. But the Eleventh Circuit panel stayed the District Court decision, concluding that Damsky's speech was likely unprotected against disciplinary action:
The First Amendment does not protect student speech that "materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others." Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Cmty. Sch. Dist. (1969). Applying Tinker, we have held that there "is no First Amendment right allowing a student to knowingly make comments, whether oral or written, that reasonably could be perceived as a threat of school violence, whether general or specific, while on school property during the school day." {While Supreme Court precedent does not clearly indicate whether Tinker applies in the university setting, this Court, in a published decision, has applied Tinker in the higher education context. See Doe v. Valencia Coll. (11th Cir. 2018).} …
UF is likely to show that Damsky's posts "materially disrupt[ed] classwork" for two reasons. First, UF students, faculty, and staff could reasonably interpret Damsky's posts as threatening violence on UP's campus, which sparked community safety concerns. Second, the UF community could reasonably interpret Damsky's posts as promoting extralegal violence, and schools can regulate at least some speech that calls for illegal conduct.
We begin with UF's argument that Damsky's posts threatened violence that caused safety concerns at UF. Damsky posted on X that his "position on Jews is simple: whatever Harvard professor Noel Ignatiev meant by his call to 'abolish the White race by any means necessary' is what I think must be done with Jews. Jews must be abolished by any means necessary." A reasonable reader could understand Damsky's post and its use of the word "abolish" to mean that Jews must be murdered. See Abolish, Oxford English Dictionary (defining abolish as "[t]o put an end to, do away with (an institution, custom, or practice); to eradicate, destroy (something prevalent); to annul or make void"). {The dissent notes that Damsky's posts have other plausible interpretations. We do not claim that the only reasonable interpretation of Damsky's speech is that it threatened violence, nor is that what our caselaw requires for UF to regulate Damsky's speech.} That understanding is bolstered by Damsky's statement that 'Jews must be abolished by any means necessary." "[A]ny means necessary" can reasonably be interpreted to include violent measures. {The dissent argues that Damsky's posts were political speech, which is at the "core" of First Amendment protection. But Damsky's posts, which are reasonably interpreted as advocating for extralegal violence against a minority group, are readily distinguishable from what courts have considered political speech. Thus, we do not afford Damsky's speech, which was reasonably interpreted as advocating violence, any additional protections on the basis that it also touches on matters of political concern.}
While Damsky created some ambiguity by conditioning the meaning of his "position on Jews" on the intentions of a Harvard professor, a reasonable reader, particularly members of the UF community who were aware of Damsky's prior statements and actions, could still understand his post as a call for violence. {[T]hose past statements are relevant because they inform how UF and its community would reasonably interpret his current X posts.} For example, before the X posts that led to his expulsion, Damsky disseminated an essay to his classmates that he later confirmed was "a call for extralegal violence" and "a call for contemporary racial violence."
Additionally, when a Jewish UF Law professor replied to Damsky's post and asked if he meant that he "would murder [her] and [her] family," Damsky did not say no, which left open the reasonable interpretation that he did want to kill her and her family. Instead, he conditioned his position that Jews must be murdered on whether a Harvard professor wanted white people to be murdered. The UF professor "knew [Damsky] had already lost a job as a prosecutor based on his extreme views, which would make a reasonable person reluctant to double down in this way." Damsky's response to the professor reasonably indicated to her that "he cared more about furthering white supremacy than he cared about his future career and he also seemed to want to create ambiguity about whether he would actually carry out violence towards [the Jewish professor] and [her] family."
Further, in his X reply to the UF professor, Damsky affirmatively brought up genocide and stated that "[i]f [the previously mentioned Harvard professor] sought genocide, then surely a genocide of all Whites would be an even greater outrage than a genocide of all Jews, given the far greater number of Whites." Explicitly invoking genocide in connection with his statement that "Jews must be abolished" confirms the reasonableness of an interpretation that Damsky was advocating for violence.
Several other contextual facts support a reading of Damsky's post as a call for violence against Jews that could materialize on UF's campus. First, UF Law staff members reported Damsky's aggressive behavior. When he was inadvertently locked out of a UF building, Damsky began "banging, kicking, yanking the glass door and yelling, 'Let me in the F-ing door,'" to the point that multiple UF Law employees were "uncomfortable and afraid" and "concerned about [their] safety because [Damsky] seemed enraged."
Second, a news outlet quoted an interview with Damsky where he said that it would not be wrong to refer to him as a Nazi. Third, another student reported that Damsky tweeted that his "support for Palestine was simply a means to an end." {The people residing in territories operated by the Palestine Liberation Organization in Gaza and the West Bank have been in a longstanding violent conflict with Israel, a Jewish state.} So Damsky's X posts, particularly when read within the context of his other writings, statements, and actions, are reasonably understood as a credible call for violence.
Now we turn to the second reason that Damsky's posts are likely not protected speech-they promoted extralegal violence. Applying Tinker, the Supreme Court has held that under the First Amendment a school may "restrict student speech at a school event, when that speech is reasonably viewed as promoting illegal drug use." Morse v. Frederick. The Court emphasized that "[t]he special characteristics of the school environment, and the governmental interest in stopping student drug abuse … allow schools to restrict student expression that they reasonably regard as promoting illegal drug use." Like the school in Morse, UF is permitted to punish Damsky because, as discussed above, he made statements that were reasonably viewed as promoting illegal activity (murdering Jews). Morse and this case involve speech reasonably interpreted as promoting different illegal actions but the special characteristics of the school environment and the strong governmental interest in stopping violence on campuses likely warrant the same outcome we reached in Morse.…
It is true that the Supreme Court in Mahanoy Area School Dist. v. B.L. (2021) held that a school violated a student's First Amendment rights by punishing her for off-campus online speech. While Damsky also engaged in off-campus online speech, Mahanoy is nonetheless distinguishable. The Mahanoy Court considered the fact that the student's speech "did not identify the school in her posts or target any member of the school community with vulgar or abusive language." By contrast, Damsky's posts were sufficiently connected to UF. Damsky knew "at the time of making the statements on X that some members of [the UF] community perceived him as a threat," and that community members viewed his tweets. In addition, Damsky's speech involved a direct conversation with a UF law professor. Finally, his speech could be reasonably perceived as targeting members of the school community. There is a "large and engaged Jewish community" at UF and the professor Damsky exchanged posts with was Jewish. So, his statement that "Jews must be abolished by any means necessary" necessarily encompassed members of the UF community.
Yet another distinction is that the Court in Mahanoy considered the student's First Amendment interests and the school's interest in avoiding the potential disruption that speech would cause and found that there was "no evidence" of a substantial disruption. Here, however, there is strong evidence that Damsky' s speech created a substantial disruption of the school's activities. And the disruption in this case-a credible fear of targeted violence-is one of the most severe disruptions imaginable….
Judge Kevin Newsom dissented:
As an initial matter, the University hasn't made the requisite showing, and the Court today doesn't conclude, that Damsky's X post was a "true threat." That is so for the reasons well explained in Judge Winsor's order. "True threats" are limited to "'serious expression[s] conveying that a speaker means to 'commit an act of unlawful violence.'" Under the Supreme Court's true-threat doctrine, even advocacy of the use of force is protected unless it "is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969).
However shocking, Damsky's post isn't a true threat. While it could reasonably be interpreted to advocate force, that's not the only—or even necessarily the most logical—interpretation. As the Court itself notes, Damsky's post "created some ambiguity by conditioning the meaning of his 'position on Jews' on the intentions of a Harvard professor." In any event, the post simply isn't sufficiently specific or targeted to suggest an intention to incite or produce "imminent lawless action," nor was it likely to do so….
The real question—which the Court makes the centerpiece of its analysis—is whether Tinker and its progeny justify Damsky's expulsion. I don't think they do.
I should acknowledge at the outset that I've previously expressed skepticism that Tinker's deferential (which is to say less speech-protective) framework should even apply in the university setting. So far as I can tell, the existing caselaw sends "mixed signals"—on the one hand affirming the "undoubted prerogative" of state universities "to enforce reasonable rules governing student conduct," Papish v. Bd. of Curators of Univ. of Mo. (1973), while on the other hand emphatically rejecting "the view that, because of the acknowledged need for order [in state educational institutions,] First Amendment protections should apply with less force on college campuses," Healy v. James (1972).
But alas, it seems that both the Supreme Court and this Court have (however unreflectively) invoked Tinker in the university setting. So I'm willing to stipulate that, at least as a conceptual matter, Tinker and its progeny apply here. For reasons I'll explain, though, I don't think that means they apply jot-for-jot….
Why is Damsky's odious and ignorant X post likely protected by the First Amendment? In short, because he's a 29-year-old graduate student engaged in off-campus speech of a political nature that wasn't directed at or connected to the school in any meaningful way.
Damsky engaged in off-campus speech. Like the schoolgirl in Mahanoy, Damsky engaged in off-campus, rather than on-campus, speech. Accordingly, for the same three reasons the Court specified there, whatever interest the University might otherwise have in restricting Damsky's expression is "diminished." First, the University doesn't stand in loco parentis with respect to Damsky's off-campus speech—in fact, the University doesn't stand in loco parentis to an adult like Damsky at all. Second, if, in addition to whatever restrictions it might impose on students' on-campus expression, the University can punish Damsky for content that he posts to his own social media account on his own time, then it risks (over)broadly curtailing his speech rights. And third, if secondary schools are "nurseries of democracy" and "marketplace[s] of ideas," then a fortiori a university—and perhaps even more so a law school—must likewise have a keen interest in protecting Damsky's unpopular expression, even if it "disapprove[s] of what [he] say[s]." So, for exactly the same reasons that the off-campus-ness of the young cheerleader's Snapchat rant "diminished" the strength of whatever "special characteristics" might otherwise have justified her suspension from the squad, the off-campus-ness of Damsky's X post "diminishes" the strength of the University's interest in expelling him. None of this, of course, is to say that a school—or even a university—can never regulate a student's off-campus speech, just that it bears a heavy burden if it wants to do so.
Damsky's speech wasn't directed at the University. Again, like the cheerleader's speech in Mahanoy, Damsky's post wasn't directed at the school or any of its constituents. Indeed—and yet again—this case would seem to follow a fortiori from Mahanoy. Recall the girl's post: "Fuck school fuck softball fuck cheer fuck everything." If that didn't "target any member of the school community"—despite its express reference to "school" and school-sanctioned extracurriculars—then it's hard to imagine how Damsky's—which didn't so much as mention UF or any of its students or faculty members—could.
To be sure, lesser protection would attend, for instance, "serious or severe bullying or harassment targeting particular individuals" and "threats aimed at teachers or other students," with respect to which schools may continue to have "significant" regulatory interests. But, again, Damsky's X post wasn't directed at the University. In suggesting otherwise, the Court, it seems to me, is stretching. It appears to say, for instance, that because Damsky might have known that some UF students "perceived him as a threat," and because UF has a large Jewish community, his post was directed at the school and targeted its constituents.
With respect, I don't think that follows. Surely, the sort of directedness and targeting that matters for First Amendment purposes must be of the speaker's own making. For similar reasons, the fact that a UF professor chose to engage with and comment on Damsky's X post does not indicate that Damsky "target[ed]" her. That professor directed her speech at Damsky, not vice versa….
To be sure, Damsky replied to a UF professor's response to his initial post. Seemingly to underscore what it sees as the violent nature of Damsky's speech, the Court emphasizes that when the professor "asked if [Damsky] meant he 'would murder [her] and [her] family," Damsky "did not say no"—and thereby "left open the reasonable interpretation that he wanted to kill [the professor] and her family." Surely, though, Damsky's non-response—his silence—also left open the equally plausible interpretation that he had no such desire or intention. He simply didn't (in the Court's estimation, adequately) clarify the meaning of his original post; he "answered the question with a question." … He posed "two rhetorical questions" {"Did Ignatiev want Whites murdered? If so, were his words as objectionable as mine?"} and "a conditional statement" {"If Ignatiev sought genocide, then surely a genocide of all Whites would be an even greater outrage than a genocide of all Jews, given the far greater number of Whites."} about the meaning of a Harvard professor's words. That "is far from the kind of detailed, specific" language that constitutes a "school-directed threat." …
Damsky is a graduate student. Even on the assumption that Tinker isn't categorically inapplicable in the university setting, the fact that Damsky is a 29-year-old law student, and not a grade-school student, must surely count for something in the free-speech calculus. In fact, I think it counts double. First, for their part, universities simply don't have the same interest in maintaining "order and decorum," or even in "protect[ing], guid[ing], and disciplin[ing]" students, that primary and secondary schools do. College is where people go to learn how to do the hard work of adulting. Universities can't—and shouldn't—exercise the same degree of control over their students' thoughts, statements, and actions that elementary, middle, and even high schools do.
Second, for their part, university students surely have greater speech interests than do their grade-school counterparts…. [T]he Supreme Court (even in the course of applying Tinker in a university setting) has expressly rejected "the view that … First Amendment protections should apply with less force on college campuses than in the community at large," and it has repeatedly emphasized the First Amendment's centrality to the university experience.
Damsky engaged in political speech. However grotesquely, Damsky was engaged in political speech, which the Supreme Court has repeatedly held occupies the very "core" of the First Amendment's guarantee. {And to be clear, even if Damsky's X post could be understood to sanction political violence—as I think it arguably could be—that fact alone wouldn't strip it of constitutional protection. For good or ill, the "mere advocacy of illegal acts," without more, is "a kind of speech falling within the First Amendment's core."} …
H. Christopher Bartolomucci and Justin Miller, who are my colleagues at Schaerr Jaffe LLP (where I'm a part-part-part-time academic affiliate), and Brande Smith (University of Florida) represent Summerlin. I have not been involved with Schaerr's work on this case, and I put this post solely because of my interest in the subject matter.
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This seems like a close case. I wouldn't have been shocked if this court had come out the opposite way. And I'm not outraged by this decision. Do I *really* think Damsky would have murdered anyone on campus or a person's family? No, of course not. But there was enough here to put a hell of a lot of people in real fear. The fact that his various statements and/or threats were made over an extended period and that he seems to have doubled-down on some of them, also cuts in favor of some discipline against him. (IMO) But, hey, I hear Tucker Carlson is looking for a co-host. Could be a match made in heaven.
He sounds like a lovely guy.
Your argument does not make sense. If you believe (as you seem to) that his comments were not a true threat, then it was not enough put reasonable people in "real fear". Adding the context of the older messages only matters if the new readers who alleged to be fearful actually knew of those older messages. Without that, they do not advance the true-threat analysis the way you seem to think they do.
I agree that he comes across as a not-nice guy. But if you want to make that the legal standard, you'll have to build a lot more jails.
You understand that the court didn't do a true threat analysis at all, right? It expressly declined to analyze the situation on that basis, and instead upheld the suspension on a material disruption basis.
He wasn't being prosecuted; he was being expelled.
Why "of course" not? Do you know something about him beyond the information that has come out as a result of the suit? If not, why is it incredible to think that he might, based on his statements? (I'm of course not saying you should be certain that he'd be violent; I'm questioning why you'd be certain that he wouldn't.)
It's a fair question. And I'm certainly not certain (in the existential sense). I'm really saying, "In the 750 times in my life when I've heard someone say that they want to kill another person, or another group of people who belong to Subset X, they don't follow through. Thank God; most people are not murdering monsters. And even absolute awful shitheads are just blowing off steam 99.9% of the time.
But OF COURSE there is the one out of a thousand (or the one out of fifty thousand) where the person does follow through. And we quite rightly ask, 'What signs did we miss? What red flags did we overlook, or excuse away?'
As I wrote at the top of my first comment; I do think this is a case that is close. And I only expressed relative certitude that this particular guy would not follow through based only on the statistics...based on how unlikely it is to see true follow-through. (But I have no problem with the general approach of, "We know a killing or mass killing is statistically unlikely. But we do have enough to address this problem, and the risk part of the calculus is so high that we will err on the side of caution and on the side of students'/faculty safety here." )
The exchange ended with the professor responding to Damsky "I notice you didn't say no, but instead resorted to a whataboutism … Yes, his words are despicable, but you implicitly admit yours are, too."
The person who wrote that is a worthless piece of shit, and has NO business being a professor of law.
"whataboutism" is: here's the precedent you created, now you ahve to live with it.
If you have a problem with the concept of "precedent matters", and bitching about "whataboutism" says you do, then you have no place in the law.
Did this Jewish UF Law professor object when Harvard professor Noel Ignatiev issued his call to 'abolish the White race by any means necessary'? No? She was perfectly fine with him calling for the murder of hundreds of millions of "white people"?
Then she needs to take a hearty cup of STFU, and piss off
This is not persuasive. One need not decry all the evils of the world to lodge a specific critique. And of course she does say, at least in context of argument and assumptions that the other statement was "despicable" which I don't think means "perfectly fine" as you characterize her views. And of course in the U.S. most Jews are also considered white.
If you're ok with a Harvard Professor calling to murder > 100 million Americans because they have the "wrong" skin color, then you don't get to claim to be worried about, or bothered by, "genocide".
And if you say "that's whataboutism" when someone points this out, you have no business being on a law schools' faculty
Do you actually think the right interpretation is that he wants to kill 100 million Americans? Or are you just grasping for something to deflect to?
He's fuel for the antisemite; that's about the full extent of his relevance or mattering.
By "he," you mean Ignatiev? I'm not sure what is the "right" interpretation of his statement, but it could certainly be interpreted as a call for genocide, just like I'm not sure what is the "right" interpretation of any particular person's chanting "From the river to the sea . . ." but it could certainly be interpreted as a call for genocide.
‘Pass the beans’ could be interpreted as a call for genocide. Not by anyone with sense, though.
When dealing with human speech, context matters.
I know, I know. It’s terribly inefficient and lossy.
If the right interpretation of the Harvard lunatic is NOT that he wanted to kill 100 million humans, then the right interpretation of the student is that he didn't want to kill Jews.
In which case the student shouldn't be punished.
So, you tell me, which is the "right interpretation"?
Except in context the student misinterpreted Ignatiev through ignorance or on purpose [see Gregory below], just as you are, so he could actually advocate for genocide.
You can tell this from the other things the student said.
You're ignoring all context, reading things completely literally, and then choosing unlikely parsings to get where you want to go.
And where you want to go is absolving the Nazi, and condemning the Harvard prof.
The Harvard guy is a particularly cringey style of leftist, but that's about as far as that goes.
Sorry for your oppression contest.
Yet another stupid comment. Two comments said by different people in different times and places need not be interpreted the same way just because they are structurally similar.
If a bunch of fans in the stands of a baseball game yell, "Boo! Kill the umpires!" after a terrible call, that does not mean anyone must take it as seriously as a bunch of people in Nazi regalia yelling, "Boo! Kill the Jews!" outside a synagogue.
'abolish the White race by any means necessary'
How do you interpret that statement?
A professor trying to be provocative by making his ideas seem even more edgy and dangerous than they already are?
There are so many levels under which this response of yours is stupid. Someone's failure to object to some event at some other point in time and space — even if it were an identical fact pattern — does not in fact create a "precedent." Maybe this law professor didn't object to the Harvard thing because she was unaware of it. Maybe she didn't object because she wasn't afraid because she knew the Harvard professor personally and thus had a basis to judge that he wasn't serious. Maybe she didn't object because things that happen 1,000 miles away from where one lives generally don't put one in fear the same way that things that happen at one's own workplace do.
Or maybe she's a hypocrite. But Niemöller's famous poem doesn't go
FWIW, having read Ignatiev's work, he doesn't call for violence against white people, he believes that whites are at the top of an implicit racial caste system, and the way to abolish that caste system is to abolish the notion of there being a white race. I have my issues with Ignatiev's analysis, but violence isn't one of them because that's not what he's advocating.
Is there any information on how Ignatiev even came up as a topic for Damsky to raise? Did the class in question read or discuss his work?
As a practical matter, for purposes of true threat analysis, Damsky's response of a hypothetical question asking "Did Ignatiev want Whites murdered?" doesn't really move the needle. A reasonable recipient of Damsky's message would have no way to feel confident that Damsky didn't think Ignatiev was threatening violence, regardless of how the recipient interprets Ignatiev.
Ignatiev’s work comes up periodically on Twitter as evidence for a liberal/Jewish plot to destroy the white race. He likely just saw a quote from it and ran with it without checking for context.
I agree with the point you're making, but I again want to point out that the court didn't do a true threat analysis.
If by abolish the white race, you mean don't have any system which gives legal advantages to anyone for being white, abolish away!
But if that's what abolishing means, then we should "abolish" *all* races, in the sense of having no legally-"superior" race, but instead equal, nonracial treatment.
Of course there are differences among people, in *some* respects, though acknowledging this is *not* an excuse for discrimination or imputations of generic inferiority. History, cultural tastes, etc., make things interesting without providing an excuse for oppression or discrimination.
What would we think of someone why said they wanted to abolish Jewishness or the Jewish race or whatever? Wikipedia says Ignatiev is of Jewish descent. Would he be comfortable with "abolishing Jewishness"?
But here's an interesting wrinkle from Wikipedia, the Affair of the Kosher Toaster:
"From 1986 until 1992, Ignatiev served as a tutor (academic adviser) for Dunster House at Harvard College. In early 1992, Ignatiev objected to the university's purchase of a toaster oven for the Dunster House dining hall that would be designated for kosher use only. He insisted that cooking utensils with restricted use should be paid for by private funds. In a letter to the Harvard student newspaper, the Harvard Crimson, Ignatiev wrote: 'I regard anti-Semitism, like all forms of religious, ethnic and racial bigotry, as a crime against humanity and whoever calls me an anti-Semite will face a libel suit'.
"Dunster House subsequently declined to renew Ignatiev's contract, saying that his conduct during the dispute was 'unbecoming of a Harvard tutor'. Dunster co-master Hetty Liem said it was the job of a tutor 'to foster a sense of community and tolerance and to serve as a role model for the students' and that Ignatiev had not done so."
At least one can think of a plausible argument in favor of Ignatiev's toaster stance. But to be fair, most Gentiles are permitted to eat kosher foods, so the toaster oven would accommodate the Jewish students without limiting the choices of the Gentiles (who probably had other utensils anyway, if they wanted something non-kosher).
Or in short, since a Gentile student would be free to use kosher ingredients to prepare something in the toaster for himself to eat, why shouldn't he share in the payment?
Taking your post seriously, the problem I have with all arguments about "whites" as a group, is that "white" in the US is not a particular culture with a common history, it's a catch-all for "anywhere not deemed to be non-white." What does a wiccan lesbian hippie of Dutch descent have in common with an Appalachian snake handler of Scoth-Irish descent or a Hasidic Jew in Brooklyn? Nothing, except the racial tag of "white." And that's why "abolishing whiteness" is not like "abolishing Jewishness" but would be like "abolishing Italian American-ness" or "Mormon-ness."
Whites don't have a lot in common, unless you count the movement to "abolish whiteness." That tends to single them out and give them something in common: someone is targeting them with, at the very least provocative language.
"'abolishing whiteness' is not like 'abolishing Jewishness' but would be like 'abolishing Italian American-ness' or 'Mormon-ness.'"
Mormons are *definitely* "a particular culture with a common history." To a large extent, so are Italian-Americans, making allowances for region of origin in the Old Country. (A quick search diclosed a book called *The Italian Americans : a history* by Maria Laurino (New York: W. W. Norton, 2015). So I'm not the only one making this point).
Thus, I'm a bit unclear on the implications of your comparison.
What does the Hasidic Jew have in common with, say, Gayle Rubin? What does either of them have in common with Lloyd Blankfein? And what about Tom Steyer or Arthur Sulzberger (both Jewish under the Nuremberg laws)? I guess, if you really work at it, you can find slightly more diversity among Americans of European descent in toto than among the subset thereof who are of Jewish descent, but not much.
What does a wiccan lesbian hippie of Dutch descent have in common with an Appalachian snake handler of Scoth-Irish descent
They're both species of German.
I think the point — stupid as it was in that context — would not be that you're restricting the choices of Gentiles (or non-observant Jews, for that matter), but that you're imposing an additional cost on the non-Jews in order to accommodate the observant Jews. The school could save the non-Jews, collectively, the $29.99 it spent on the kosher toaster. (Like I said, it's a stupid point.)
All I know is that prisons (at least the enlightened ones) manage to handle the religious dietary preferences of convicted felons, so maybe a Harvard dormitory should be able to manage the same thing with its students.
Are nonreligious prisoners exempt from paying from their religious fellow prisoners' special diets?
I don't think prisoners generally pay for other prisoners' meals.
Perhaps adults could get the Pickering test instead of Tinker. Plaintiff was punished for speech on a matter of public concern (should Jews exist?) that caused actual disruption.
Not having intimate familiarity with the caselaw here, I think it’s bad policy to expel a graduate student for this kind of statement. Anyone with access to Google can tell that ignatiev advocates abolishing white racial identity, not murdering white people. Annoying radical liberal thought, but not genocidal or violent. This joker’s disingenuous reframing of ignatiev’s work might be unfair to ignatiev, but it’s the kind of disingenuous shock content that dominates all social media these days. Maybe a reasonable person time traveling from the 70s might be put in fear, but I don’t see that for a present day student.
How is White Racial Identity different than White?
I don't understand this distinction.
Does he want to abolish black racial identity or Hispanic racial identity or Jew racial identity?
Or just White?
Point of information: There is no such thing as "Jew racial identity."
David Bernstein’s debated his points on this blog in the past. My understanding is that ignatiev sees white identity as a different category than other races, being closer to an absence of racial identity (and thus free from racial subordination). He argues that certain groups, like the Irish, became incorporated into whiteness, which is evidence that the white racial category isn’t like other racial categories, which have more static definitions (Bernstein has a post debating this specifically). Again, I don’t agree with him, but I don’t think his pitch invokes violence against anyone.
Anyone with access to Google can tell that ignatiev advocates abolishing white racial identity, not murdering white people.
My understanding is that ignatiev sees white identity as a different category than other races, being closer to an absence of racial identity (and thus free from racial subordination).
Thanks, Gregory. Intriguing.
I'm struggling with the idea of abolishing the non existent. If white identity is the absence of racial identity, what would abolishing it look like ? If it were an actual thing with actual content - "we blotchy pink folk must stick together, against the terrifying hordes of vaguely yellow, light brown, dark brown and ink black savages that threaten us" then, yes, I can see what abolishing it might look like. Kinda. Though I'd be interested in the methods that might be used.
But all I can come up with to abolish the absence of a racial identity, is that you must create a presence - make the "muh, us, we're not anything in particular" folk think "yay for us, the blotchy pinks !" That would abolish what you say Ignatiev thinks the current white racial identity is - ie nada - and replace it with .... an actual white racial identity !
Anyway, it's now a lot easier to understand all those mirror-deprived middle aged white ladies going round insisting that whiteness is evil. It's, er, something, Jim - but not as we know it.
I wonder if the guy has thought of the idea of arranging for those ethnic groups that DO have a racial identity to melt into the bland soup of non existent whiteness, a la Irish ? Or is that too 60s ?
The irony is that white identity (or perhaps calling it "white consciousness" would make it clearer) has been a far left project as well as an alt-right project. (For different reasons with different ends, to be sure.) The idea was that whiteness was unjustly treated as the default — the norm — and because this largely operated at the unconscious level, it led to whites not even realizing the ways in which this operated and the white privilege it engendered. It caused whites to see the lobbies of other racial groups as (illegitimate) special interests, rather than as just competing interest groups. And the only way to overcome this situation was to get whites to be conscious of their whiteness, to 'understand' that they were no different than other racial groups.
Trouble is, of course, that getting more whites to 'understand' that they were just another racial group did not cause those people to be more sympathetic to the claims of other groups, but to say, "Well, then, it's just as legitimate for us to look out for own interests as for them to look out for theirs."
The court ruled that, at this preliminary stage, "UF has made a strong showing that it is likely to succeed on the merits ..."
I don't think the headline of this post correctly captures the actual ruling.
The Plaintiff still has the opportunity on remand to prove his entitlement to a final injunction. This decision, however, strikes me as incorrect.
As the dissent points out, cases such as Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, 393 U.S. 503 (1969), and the execrable Morse v. Frederick, 551 U.S. 393 (2007), which address the right of school administrators vis-a-vis high school students should not govern disciplinary proceedings against a law student for his provocative speech.
Mr. Damsky appears to be a world class jerk, but as Justice Frankfurter wrote in dissent in United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J., dissenting), "It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people."
It's not as if he said, "Ignatiev calling for the abolition of the white race is like some guy calling for the abolition of the Jewish race, and both kinds of advocacy are intolerable."
He said that "Jews must be abolished by any means necessary." In a class paper, he said Whites should overthrow the government for the (alleged) protection of their race. So his previous endorsement of violence and his call for abolition of Jews could certainly be interpreted as meaning violence.
Maybe he *wasn't* advocating anti-Jewish violence, but was simply engaged in a ridiculous game of owning the libs. Even if that was the case, his lack of clarity allowed others to interpret his words in a violent way.
People who toy with ideas of violence would be well-advised to exhibit some clarity and specify that their discussion of violence if theoretical, or historical.
Of course, I know about the case of Brandenburg v. Ohio, so the state has to tolerate some advocacy of violence. But when the speaker starts suggesting that he's actually supporting imminent violence, then my suggestion, if he doesn't actually mean it, is to clarify himself promptly.
Two additional pieces of context might be helpful here. I was a student at this school for all the events described here (even if attending less each week; senioritis!) and would chat with him in passing.
First, I will go on a limb and say that it’s likely that Damsky has some mild case of Asperger’s. He’s very interested in discussion of all sorts of ideas, especially relating to political theory. Several colleagues (including two Jewish students) and I found him very pleasant to talk with, though he’s not one to pay attention to the social niceties that most are. Even if ignorant to smart social practice, he’s not some dumb guy who doesn’t know or care about the law (he kept racking up so many book awards the school felt the need to stop announcing them publicly); instead he is an obviously intelligent student who thought his speech was squarely protected by the First Amendment. Of course almost everyone at the school disagreed with his views on Jewish influence in the country (as laid out in his above references to his writings, and would say in discussions in public), but it was so incredibly obvious he had zero personal animus towards anyone of Jewish background. Some at the school even thought he is of some Jewish background himself, though I didn’t know one way or another.
Second, the students reporting feeling unsafe are all, to my understanding, members of the National Lawyers Guild. Here, they coordinated, at least some of, their reporting of feeling unsafe, etc. to the school. Screenshots of their group message circulated around the school. And even earlier, their members had encouraged reporting Damsky to the school via a class group chat during his first year for his mere agreement in class with his (black) con law professor (whom he would later befriend) that Plessy v. Ferguson was constitutional under an originalist read. No reasonable person would ever have felt “threatened” by this guy. This kind of pressure is part of what led to the school locking doors, etc. I’d also note that the law professor involved here is not incredibly even keeled, as you might tell from her X comment on Damsky’s post.
Among normal students at the school, at least while I was there, Damsky’s speech was disagreed with but UF’s action here was viewed as extreme overkill. I hope he wins en banc or at SCOTUS.
Unless SCOTUS wants to hold that Tinker simply doesn't apply in the college context, I can't see why it would be interested in this case. It would be at most error correction.
Somebody wrote a bad word in a bathroom of the high school for my town. Overwrought messages went out and parents and residents got in a tizzy. I asked a student about the incident. She hadn't heard of it. It was of interest to the outraged class, not the normal people.
The dissent seems much more persuasive to me, and if taken up en banc or by SCOTUS, I expect the dissent to prevail.