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Felon's Living with Family Members Who He Knows Own Guns Doesn't Itself Show "Possession" Under State Ban on Felons Possessing Guns
So concludes the Louisiana Supreme Court, though my sense is that other courts may well have decided this differently.
From State v. White, decided by the Louisiana Supreme Court Thursday, in an opinion by Justice John Michael Guidry
The State charged the defendant with three counts of possession of a firearm by a convicted felon after parole officers found [two] guns in the house where he lived with family members….
Defendant was convicted as to these two guns, and sentenced to seven years in prison, but the Louisiana Supreme Court reversed:
To convict [under state felon-in-possession law], the State is required to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant had: 1) possession of a firearm, 2) a prior conviction for an enumerated felony, 3) an absence of the ten-year statutory period of limitation, and 4) a general intent to commit the offense…. Defendant's 2020 drug conviction and the fact that the ten-year cleansing period between the prior conviction and the current offense did not lapse are undisputed….
Possession … can be either actual or constructive…. "'[C]onstructive possession' is a term of legal art, describing the situation in which a person, not in physical possession of a thing, can, nevertheless be considered to be in legal possession of the thing." Constructive possession of a firearm occurs when the firearm is subject to the defendant's dominion and control, even if only temporarily or shared….
The court concluded there wasn't enough evidence of defendant's dominion and control over the guns:
The jury found the defendant guilty of attempted possession of the firearm found in the master bedroom that he shared with his wife. Notably, the gun was found in a dresser drawer that contained clothing items that in color and design appeared to belong to a woman. Kimberly, the defendant's wife, testified that the drawer containing the gun also contained {her underwear, bras, and girdle} and an electronic gaming device she stated belonged to her.
To establish the defendant's dominion and control over the gun found in the dresser drawer, the State offered the testimony of Officer Cook, who stated that the dresser was located in the bedroom that the defendant shared with his wife and that the defendant's parole paperwork was found in another drawer of the same dresser in which the gun was found. Photographs introduced into evidence by the State, however, display the gun and the parole paperwork in what appear to be two separate dressers. Kimberly likewise testified that the parole documents were in a different "chest of drawers" than the one that contained the gun….
Herein, there was no evidence to prove that the gun found in the defendant's bedroom was subject to his dominion and control…. [T]he defendant moved into the home, which had been procured by Kimberly, merely three weeks before his arrest for possessing the gun found in the dresser. The rest of his family had been residing in the home for well over a year.
Moreover, the dresser drawer appeared to be within the exclusive control of Kimberly. The gun was found in a drawer full of Kimberly's belongings, and while Officer Cook testified that the defendant's parole papers were found in the same dresser, Officer Cook's testimony is refuted by the State's own photos showing that the parole papers were in an entirely different dresser. … [T]he evidence offered by the State failed to exclude the hypothesis that Kimberly owned and never informed the defendant about the gun in the dresser, which she had placed there over a year before he moved into the home….
As for the gun found in the living room couch in the instant case, although in a common area of the home, the couch was also [the] designated bed [for defendant's son, Jordan, because he had no separate bedroom in the house]. {Jordan … testified that the gun in the [living room] couch belonged to him…. } While there was no evidence presented that Jordan had the exclusive use of the couch, there is no dispute that the couch was solely being used by Jordan prior to the gun being found…. Notably, Jordan's testimony that he kept the gun in his truck or in the couch established that the gun was generally subject to Jordan's dominion and control. There was no evidence presented to show that the gun was accessible to the defendant while it was in the couch, as none of the witnesses testified that the defendant was seen or found near the couch or in the living room prior to being detained by the parole officers. Hence, while the evidence clearly establishes the gun in the couch was subject to Jordan's control, it falls far short of establishing that the gun was ever jointly subject to the defendant's dominion and control….
And the court also found there wasn't enough evidence that the possession was intentional:
[A]s the State provided no [sufficient] evidence to prove that the defendant was aware of the gun in the dresser in the master bedroom, we find the State failed to produce sufficient evidence to prove the defendant intended to possess that gun.
[As to the gun in the couch,] conceding the defendant admitted to Officer Cook his awareness that his son still had a gun in the house, he did not disclose any intent to use or take possession of the gun….
Chief Justice John Weimer joined in the majority opinion, but wrote separately to add:
[T]he family lived in a small, modest home in a high crime area. There had been a recent break-in at the family's home, and defendant's son was shot. Many hold the "right to bear arms" of the Second Amendment and the related provision of the Louisiana Constitution sacrosanct. There is no evidence the other family members had forfeited their right to bear arms, and the facts of this matter unfortunately demonstrate the need to protect themselves.
A contrary decision in this matter would adversely impact the rights of the other family members in the household and force on them the choice of exercising their constitutional rights or requiring a father/husband to live off the premises. The facts indicate defendant had only weeks before being found worthy of being released on parole.
Justice Cade Cole agreed with the majority and with Chief Justice Weimer's Second Amendment point; he added, "the standard for parole revocation is different from the standard for securing a criminal conviction. At oral argument in this case, both defendant and the state agreed that this defendant's parole could have validly been revoked under that more lenient standard." (This might be because, as the majority noted, "the presence of any gun in the home may have been a violation of the conditions of the defendant's parole"; query how that would affect the Second Amendment question.)
Justice William Crain dissented:
The jury was free to assess the credibility of the witnesses and weigh the evidence presented…. [J]uries [have] vast discretion to decide what inferences to draw from the evidence presented at trial, requiring only that jurors draw reasonable inferences from basic facts to ultimate facts. It was reasonable for the jury to infer the defendant had constructive possession of the two guns and the requisite criminal intent to commit the charged offenses…. The majority errs in reweighing the evidence, assessing the credibility of the witnesses, and substituting its own opinion for that of the jury….
For some other cases on the subject, see p. 1499 of my Implementing the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in Self-Defense.
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I suppose with jury trials so seldom, it is inevitable that many legal professionals will conclude juries exist for ornamental purposes only.
This is an interesting example of a felon in possession case. My first reaction was "sheesh, folks, is it so hard to keep the guns locked away when a felon is living in the house, just to avoid this kind of trouble?". And these folks seemed ready for trouble - mom had a gun in her dresser, daughter one under her mattress, and son one in the couch he used for a bed. That seems pretty paranoid until:
"Two days before the guns were discovered, parole officer Ayleen Cook visited the defendant’s home looking for another individual. The defendant told Officer Cook about an incident that had occurred a couple of weeks before in which an intruder invaded the home, and in the course of robbing the defendant’s son, Jordan, used Jordan’s gun to shoot Jordan."
It seems these people weren't living in a nice neighborhood. For most of us who live in nice neighborhoods sleeping with a gun handy because of a recent home invasion seems hard to imagine, but not everyone has that luxury.
On the one hand, restricting gun ownership to only the most responsible, levelheaded, law abiding tranche of people is attractive. As is restricting ownership from the most hotheaded, most violent tranche of people. But in between is the tranche of people like this fellow - law breaking enough he was convicted of drug possession, but without a record as bad as the people who broke into his house and shot his son. That's where the hard decisions are. On the facts as presented here, sending this guy away doesn't seem like a wise use of penal resources. OTOH if they catch the folks who broke in and shot his son, I'm OK with sending them away both for the home invasion, and later if they get caught with a gun (or knife handy in their backpack!).
(If I'm reading the summary right, LA's felon prohibition is for 10 years post conviction, which strikes me as more reasonable than a lifetime ban)
If the guns are locked up then what use are the guns?
Well, my policy is that they are usually either locked up or on my person. YMMV.
Perhaps a possession ban should not have been in place with respect to this individual, however if
it would appear that the defendant was very aware there were firearms in the residence and that they were easily accessible (just as they were to Jordan's attacker) and hence to him. Thus the defendant "knew or reasonably should have known" that there were likely firearms readily available in the home. If he couldn't convince the residents of the home to get rid of those firearms, his choice to stay in the home with firearms was his and his alone -- just as if he chose to stay in a home with loaded and unlocked firearms mounted on every wall and even in his own nightstand.
(I question if conviction on a drug offense should impose any restriction on firearm possession but that's the law and I don't know the particulars of this defendant's crime.)
The defendant knew that Jordan had a gun at the time of the break in. He also knew that he gun had been confiscated by police at the time.
He was supposedly unaware of the replacement pistol.
That said, the jury agreed with you.
Irrespective of this case, ...an intruder invaded the home, and in the course of robbing the defendant’s son, Jordan, used Jordan’s gun to shoot Jordan."...is useful as a reminder that any firearm maintained in a household is far more likely to be used against members of the household, or acquaintances in the house with permission, than against a stranger or an individual without permitted access.
And it's even more likely if a family member or other permitted-access individual is kinda cray-cray. I'm sure that doesn't apply to any of the posters here.
"far more likely" - no. Possible? Yes. But the claims that a firearm is "far more likely" to be used against the owner has been repeatedly debunked. The incidence of that happening is quite low and could only be interpreted as "far more likely" by very creative data exclusion of what counted as 'use' in the first place. For example, 'brandishing' was not counted as a 'use' even though brandishing alone is sufficient to resolve most potentially-violent situations.
But, sure, if you're worried about domestic violence, you shouldn't leave your primary means of defense where your abuser can get to it before you do. You also shouldn't bother with a firearm unless you are mentally and emotionally ready to pull the trigger - and yes, that's harder when you are in a relationship with your abuser.
Way to counter an argument I did make. Specifically, I did not say "against the owner" (singular), but described an expanded target population of all people routinely present in the home: "...used against members of the household."
Unlike yours, my usage was the same as in the original quote: "... used Jordan’s gun to shoot Jordan." The stats—encompassing those injured or killed by intentional, accidental, or self-inflicted gun-enabled violence—are not debunked.
You went beyond the original quote, likely relying on selected studies incorporating inherently unreliable self-reporting of otherwise unconfirmable deterrence gun display ("Well, he looked sideways at my girl so I pulled out my Glock and you shoulda seen that sucker run!"). I can brandish my disc golf Destroyer (distance driver) and say I'm gonna park this one! But I don't use it until I actually throw it (though at 71, I'm usually out-distanced by the typically much younger pick-up players at the local DG course anyway).
The only way you can bring the "far more" number down, is to disingenuously remove firearm suicide from the equation. But, yes, all else being equal, you, keeping firearms in your house, are statistically far more likely than I, to be injured or die by gunfire.
Does whatever study you quote from control for lawfully owned guns vs. illegally owned guns? Control for the presence of convicted criminals in the residence? How about control for instances of justifiable self defense use of the firearm against a "member" of the household?
For "any firearm in the home" statistic to be useful for the general population, it should be measured only by LAWFULLY owned firearms in homes without violent criminals residing. I don't recall any study with this parameter. Until one comes along, I don't think many law abiding people will want to defer their right to armed defense based on stats derived by incidents occurring in crack houses and gang hangouts.
Please explain, why?
My observation was of only one thing: is a firearm in a gun-owning household more likely, or less likely to be used to injure or kill 1) a household member, or 2) someone unrelated to the household? Also, though the odds are closer on this one, to be a victim of gun violence. (For simplicity, I group anyone with presence authorized by the household in that population).
Not a lot of variables needed for that. And the data are not from just one study, but dozens of studies with different purposes (one might concern domestic violence; another, suicide; a third, home invasions). Household gun injuries collected may be only incidental to the study or, on one rather famous one, involve an all-cause study of childhood deaths).
Hint: 'external' firearms and shooter motivation/victim behavior are not relevant to what I said. No matter the intent or non-intent of a person firing a shot ('accidents' are included), the person injured or killed is either a household member or not, and the firearm used was either already present in the house, or not.
Again my point is simply that numerous multiple-discipline studies collecting data about home gun injury or death, demonstrate that a household firearm is far more likely to injure or kill a household member than anyone outside the household.
Or, even more simply, Yes, that gun you keep in your house because it makes you feel safe? It's far more likely to be used against you or a family member, than against an intruder.
I'm unaware of any study that has established that a firearm in a gun-owning household is more likely to be used to kill a member of the household, than anybody else. Although I've encountered at least one study that established something completely different that was described that way...
Perhaps you could provide an actual cite, so we can look at this study, and not have to take your word for it? Until you do that much, I see no reason to take your claims seriously.
But the whole idea does suffer from a couple obvious problems:
1. Killing somebody isn't the goal of self defense, defending one's self is. So excluding all self-defense uses that don't result in killing the one you're defending yourself against is screwed up.
2. If you get a restraining order against a violent 'member of your household', (Say a boyfriend who just drops by occasionally.) they violate it and attack you, and you successfully use a gun to defend yourself, it likely gets coded as 'killing a member of the household', not "successful self-defense".
It's a sad fact that a lot of violent crime is committed against relatives and 'loved' ones, because, shocker: Criminals have families! Does that imply that the relatives of criminals should be denied the means to defend themselves?
The idea that if a person loses his gun rights forever due to a felony, that anyone he ever lives with should as well is obscene.
The problem is that this isn't immediately obvious to people who start out thinking that the idea of gun rights is what's obscene. THOSE people are just looking for any excuse they can find to infringe them.
They don't believe it's actually a right, so there's nothing to infringe in their mind.
Sounds a lot like G. Gordon Liddy, who boasted of his wife's gun collection. Some legal commentators were dubious of his legal prospects if the government chose to go after him.
In Massachusetts the Appeals Court wanted to uphold a conviction for possession without a license. The court ruled that when the defendant locked the car in which he had reason to believe a gun was kept, he had constructive possession of the gun. So now if you go out with your friend who has a gun and he decided to leave it in your car, you can't lock your car without facing a mandatory minimum 18 months. You need a gun license to press the "lock" button on your remote.
I remember seeing a case where a prohibited person worked in a business that kept guns. His desk was close enough to the room with guns that he had constructive possession as a matter of law.
Hand the car key to the gun owner.
" a term of legal art "
Here in Canada the firearms regulation system makes these things clearer. In order to lawfully possess a firearm, you have to have a Firearms Acquisition Certificate, for which you have to take a course and pass both written and practical exams. One of the duties of the holder of an FAC is to deny access to anyone who does not have one. So, if the wife has an FAC and her husband does not, for whatever reason (legal prohibition, lack of interest, inability to pass the exam) she must store her weapons in such a way that her husband does not have ready access, e.g. by storing them in a gun safe or using trigger locks to which he does not have the key or combination. Keeping an unlocked gun in her underwear drawer, to which her husband had access even if it was not "his" drawer, would be a clear violation of the law.
And that is why Canada sucks.
Clearer - yes.
Unconstitutional if it were US law - also yes.
Bad social policy even under Canada law - again, yes. That approach makes gun possession a privilege rather than a right. It also renders the weapon useless in the very situations where it is most likely to be needed.
It's also disingenuous nonsense.
Use a safe with a keypad and tell your husband the code.
The state can't prove he knows the code.
In a forgotten aspect of DC v Heller, SCOTUS held that it is unconstitutional for the state to require a firearm be locked up so as to not be available for emergent self defense.
The opinion also notes:
Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons
The concern here is that a felon would have access. It leaves open a law that "denies access" to felons. Felons don't have, under the opinion, the right to use guns for self-defense.
"The jury was free to assess the credibility of the witnesses and weigh the evidence presented…. [J]uries [have] vast discretion to decide what inferences to draw from the evidence presented at trial, requiring only that jurors draw reasonable inferences from basic facts to ultimate facts. It was reasonable for the jury to infer the defendant had constructive possession of the two guns and the requisite criminal intent to commit the charged offenses…. The majority errs in reweighing the evidence, assessing the credibility of the witnesses, and substituting its own opinion for that of the jury…."
I wonder if this judge would be as sanguine about the jury's discretion when it comes to jury nullification.
A recent case on constructive possession: US v. McHenry (10th Cir. 24-7048). Defendant committed a robbery. Defendant left the scene as part of a two car convoy. One of the cars had a gun in it. Even if the robbery was already over and the gun was in the other car, he could be guilty of "carrying" a firearm "during" a crime of violence. (See first full paragraph on page 10.) He could constructively possess a gun that was in another car. This legal finding is important because the gun crime comes with a consecutive mandatory minimum sentence under 18 USC 924(c)(1)(A). There is no mandatory minimum sentence for using the shotgun during a kidnapping because kidnapping is not a "crime of violence" under federal law. There is a mandatory minimum sentence for having the shotgun in a car where it didn't matter.
"The trial court sentenced the defendant to seven years in prison at hard labor and a $500 fine on count 1, and 14 years in prison at hard labor and a $1,000 fine on count 3, with the sentences to run concurrently. "
WTF. Is that still a thing?
The jury clearly gave some thought to the totality of the evidence and made choices about which guns he had access to, and which he did not.
I think they did fail to account for the likelihood that he was seriously relying on a 22 caliber pistol as his primary bedroom weapon.
There's a worthless saturday night special in a lingerie drawer. That's obviously her. There are two 9mm pistols where two other men sleep. Including one person who had demonstrably purchased it for his own personal self defense. These two guns are obviously "theirs."
To me, the evidence shows that the guns weren't "his." It also shows that he has good cause to own a gun for self defense.
The jury found him guilty of *attempted* possession. Weirdly, I feel like there's a stronger case for the actual crime here than for the attempt. Was he in possession? Arguably. Did he *attempt* to be in possession? Not really. He just passively lived in the house where other people had guns.
The State v. Fisher case seems a pretty lenient decision. There's a gun in an open bag on the floor board and the clip for the particular gun is in the pocket of the defendant. The sister says the gun is hers, so it must have always been in her bag? And not placed in the bag from the console or dash while the officer walked up to the window? Not easy.
One question: How do you put a gun *in* a couch? On a couch, or under a couch? Of course. But "in" a couch? There are a small number of couches that have pouches or drawers. So, you could easily put a gun in such a couch. Did the court mean "stuck the gun between the cushions?" I guess that's some version of "in."
(If I put a gun into my couch by jamming it in between two cushions, there is a non-zero chance that someone could sit down and the gun would fire upwards, into their, um, happy area. No bueno.)
I agree with Davey C anove. There might arguably have been sufficient evidence of constructive albeit passive possession. But there was no evidence of a possession attempt. Attempts have to involve actual acts on the defendant’s part. It’s not sufficient to legally attribute what other people did to him.
The opinion focuses on his lack of control over the two guns (couch and bedroom). Mere knowledge that guns were in the house or that the people have guns (including your wife) is not enough.
So, for instance, he knew someone had a gun & that person sleeps on the couch. But he didn't specifically have control of the gun at the time of arrest, though it is reasonable to be concerned he would have access since the couch is in a common area.
The result appears reasonable given the state law. OTOH, I think concern about a felon having access to guns provides a state the discretion to be stricter. It's a policy choice.
The non-felony family members would still have a constitutional right to own a gun for self-defense. The concern is the felon's access. For instance, a non-felon can have a loaded gun on their dresser. It is trickier if the person knows a resident felon is likely to come into the room and have access to the gun.
(A gun in your dresser is obviously less blatant, but it is still realistically a concern if a felon shares a bedroom with a spouse who has a gun in their unlocked drawer. More so if the felon knows the spouse possesses a gun. They are likely to look for it.)
The defendant was not merely "passive" here -- he chose to be in a place where he knew there was one or more guns. But for purposes of state law, he was not guilty.
No crim experience but if they didn't find constructive possession in the automobile in Fisher, this instant case has even more attenuations.
Maybe Bubba Jones' solution is a solution.