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Second Amendment Roundup: Arms and the Citizenship Issue
Illegal aliens are prohibited from possession of firearms.
Now that the Supreme Court has granted cert in Trump v. Barbara, the meaning of the Citizenship Clause in the Fourteenth Amendment should be definitively clarified. There are numerous collateral issues that are stake besides whether a birth certificate reflects citizenship. One of those is whether the person may lawfully receive or possess firearms.
The Gun Control Act (GCA) makes it unlawful for "an alien" who "is illegally or unlawfully in the United States" or who (with certain exceptions) "has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa" to receive or possess a firearm. 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(5). As elsewhere provided, "The term 'alien' means any person not a citizen or national of the United States." 8 U.S.C. § 1101(a)(3). That raises serious questions about whether a person born in the United States is "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" so as to be a "citizen" under the Fourteenth Amendment. Is a person born here of illegal aliens or of temporary visitors on a nonimmigrant visa a non-citizen who does not have Second Amendment rights?
I have posted an article on SSRN entitled "Birthright Citizenship Requires Parental Allegiance to the United States: The Meaning of 'Subject to the Jurisdiction Thereof' in the Fourteenth Amendment." Although the article doesn't mention the Second Amendment in detail, that issue looms in the background of who are citizens and thus who may lawfully possess firearms.
The federal appellate courts have consistently held that illegal aliens are subject to the federal gun ban because they are not protected by the Second Amendment. Post-Rahimi, the Seventh Circuit held in U.S. v. Carbajal-Flores (2025): "Even if the plain text of the Second Amendment presumptively protects Carbajal-Flores because he falls within 'the people,' a long tradition exists of disarming individuals, like illegal aliens, who have not sworn allegiance to the sovereign." As if to confirm his dangerousness, the defendant was apprehended firing shots at passing vehicles during the George Floyd riots.
Similarly, in U.S. v. Jimenez-Shilon (2022), the Eleventh Circuit skipped over the textual issue and found that under the history-tradition test, firearm ownership was limited to citizens. While decided just before Bruen, the court relied only on what would become Bruen's text-history test and did not wander into tiers of scrutiny.
While the cases are rarer, it has also been held that aliens here under a nonimmigrant visa are not protected by the Second Amendment. Noted U.S. v. Oghenebrume (M.D. La. 2025): "F-1 visas are held by those 'having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning,' who enter the United States 'temporarily and solely for the purpose of' education. Thus, on its face, the provision restricts aliens who have no intention of becoming a citizen and who have not declared allegiance to the United States."
Pursuant to Bruen, the courts cite various historical analogues involving persons deemed by the Founders as untrustworthy and dangerous who could be disarmed. Perhaps the strongest analogue is the disarming of supporters of the Crown and even persons who refused to take an oath of allegiance during the American Revolution. Without allegiance, citizenship has no meaning.
None of the precedents on the GCA appear to concern whether persons born here of illegal aliens or temporary visitors are "citizens" as defined by the Fourteenth Amendment. The Amendment's framers inserted the "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause to ensure that persons born here have allegiance to the United States. It so happens, as I show in my book Securing Civil Rights: Freedmen, the Fourteenth Amendment, and the Right to Bear Arms, these same framers were strong supporters of Second Amendment rights.
Start with the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which defined a citizen as one born in the U.S. who is "not subject to any foreign power." Senator Lyman Trumbull, who introduced the bill, desired "to make citizens of everybody born in the United States who owe allegiance to the United States," which excluded "persons temporarily resident in it whom we would have no right to make citizens…." On protection of civil rights for African Americans who would be defined as citizens, Trumbull cited the black codes that "prohibit[ed] any negro or mulatto from having fire-arms," emphasizing "the intention of this bill to secure those rights."
Expanding on language in the Civil Rights Act, the Freedmen's Bureau Act of 1866 recognized that the right "to have full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings concerning personal liberty, personal security, and [estate], including the constitutional right to bear arms, shall be secured to and enjoyed by all the citizens … without respect to race or color or previous condition of slavery." (Emphasis added.) The arms reference was originally moved to be inserted by Rep. Nathaniel P. Banks, who figured in a later debate related to citizenship (see below).
The purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment was to constitutionalize the 1866 Civil Rights Act, which some courts declared invalid as beyond the power of Congress (including on the issue of Second Amendment rights for freedmen). The main goal of the citizenship clauses of both the Act and the Amendment was to overturn Dred Scott and ensure that African Americans were considered citizens. It would have been incongruous indeed had the Amendment's clause "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" repudiated the Act's clause "not subject to any foreign power."
Senator Jacob Howard, who introduced the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, explained that three classes of persons were excluded from citizenship – "persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, [and those] who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers…." The clause required "a full and complete jurisdiction." Senator Trumbull said that the clause meant "subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof," i.e., "[n]ot owing allegiance to anybody else." In short, "fully and completely subject to the jurisdiction of the United States," as Senator George Williams put it. That excludes citizens of other countries who come here illegally or are temporary visitors because they have no allegiance to the United States.
Given their allegiance to their tribes, the Civil Rights Act had also "exclud[ed] Indians not taxed" from the definition of citizen. It was unnecessary to include that phrase in the Fourteenth Amendment, explained Senator George H. Williams, because such Indians were excluded from the Amendment's broader term "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." However, the 1924 Indian Citizenship Act declared "all non citizen Indians born within the territorial limits of the United States" to be citizens. They demonstrated their loyalty to the U.S. by serving in the armed forces in World War I. Simply residing on the land and being subject to some of the laws was insufficient to establish citizenship.
Advocates who would essentially delete the "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause contend that the clause applies only to children born of ambassadors and those born of members of invading armies. But the law of nations already exempted such persons from citizenship. As Emer de Vattel wrote in The Law of Nations, "children born out of the country in the armies of the state, or in the house of its minister at a foreign court, are reputed born in the country; for a citizen, who is absent with his family on the service of the state, but still dependent on it, and subject to its jurisdiction, cannot be considered as having quitted its territory."
The debates on the Citizenship Clause have been analyzed extensively elsewhere, but little or no reference has been made to the Expatriation Act of 1868, which was passed the day before the Fourteenth Amendment was declared as ratified. The Act provided that "the right of expatriation is a natural and inherent right of all people," and denied that naturalized citizens "are subjects of foreign states, owing allegiance to the governments thereof…." It further provided that all naturalized citizens, when in foreign states, were entitled to "the same protection of persons and property that is accorded to native-born citizens…."
The 1868 Report of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs averred that "the American Constitution is itself proof that Blackstone's theory of allegiance was not accepted by the American governments." Under feudalism, "[a]llegiance was due to the Crown and controlled by the place of birth…." By contrast, "the express or implied consent of both parties is necessary to the extinction of mutual obligations between a Government and its subject."
The English doctrine of allegiance of jus soli (right of the soil) was based on pure birth-right citizenship under which perpetual allegiance was owed to the sovereign of the soil where one is born, from which one may never extricate himself. As Rep. Godlove Stein Orth explained, the English common-law rule of citizenship was abrogated by the Declaration of Independence, the Naturalization Clause, and America's consistent policy.
Rep. Nathaniel P. Banks, chairman of the Committee on Foreign Affairs who reported the bill, compared the inherent right of emigration to "the right to bear arms, the freedom of speech, the liberty of the press, [and] the right of petition," about which "the Government shall pass no act abridging or denying the existence of such rights." But emigration was a two-way street, requiring both the consent of the country and the wish of the emigrant.
The Burlingame-Seward Treaty, signed on the same day that the Fourteenth Amendment was certified as ratified, has also been ignored in the debate over the Citizenship Clause. The United States and the Emperor of China recognized "the inherent and inalienable right of man to change his home and allegiance," but provided that "nothing herein contained shall be held to confer naturalization upon citizens of the United States in China, nor upon the subjects of China in the United States." That being the case, surely it was not understood that a person born of Chinese subjects in the United States, without more, had birth-right citizenship under American law.
When it decides Trump v. Barbara, the Supreme Court will decide what to do about its precedents like Wong Kim Ark (1898), which held that the son of Chinese parents lawfully and permanently domiciled in the U.S. was a citizen. If it recognizes pure birth-right citizenship without giving much meaning to the definition's "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause, then children born in the U.S. of parents here unlawfully or temporarily – who have no allegiance to the U.S. – will be citizens. Why would it be assumed that such children would have allegiance to the United States?
Absent an unlikely circuit conflict, it seems doubtful that the Supreme Court will ever grant cert in a challenge to the federal ban on possession of a firearm by illegal aliens. If it does grant cert, its Rahimi decision all but guarantees that the Court would uphold the ban. But how it resolves Trump v. Barbara, by either expanding or restricting who are "citizens," the Court will also decide the coverage of the ban on firearm possession by persons born of those "illegally or unlawfully in the United States."
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Advocates who would essentially delete the "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause contend that the clause applies only to children born of ambassadors and those born of members of invading armies. But the law of nations already exempted such persons from citizenship.
What’s the “law of nations” got to do with constitutional interpretation? Basically nothing. If the “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” language was not there, clearly children of ambassadors and invaders would, by any reading of the clear text, be citizens at birth. The drafters were simply making clear the “law of nations” regarding this was made explicit so that people like the OP couldn’t play these kinds of games.
Not "basically" nothing. Absolutely nothing. Vattel was writing about continental law, not Anglo-American common law, when discussing citizenship.
But also, yes, what you say is right: the 14th was not meant to break new ground in citizenship at all; it was meant to confirm the way the U.S. had always handled citizenship, up until Roger Taney made up his racist claim just a few years earlier that blacks could never be citizens. So the fact that children of ambassadors were never considered citizens isn't an argument against the standard interpretation; it supports it.
Not absolutely nothing.
"To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;"
Just not a lot.
We made it pretty easy for "free white" people to declare allegiance and become citizens. We didn't start recording the entry of aliens until 1798. https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/alien-and-sedition-acts
Note that "under the jurisdiction" of the US in 1790 was an underlying assumption.
https://www.mountvernon.org/education/primary-source-collections/primary-source-collections/article/naturalization-acts-of-1790-and-1795
United States Congress, “An act to establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization,” March 26, 1790
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That any Alien being a free white person, who shall have resided within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States for the term of two years, may be admitted to become a citizen thereof on application to any common law Court of record in any one of the States wherein he shall have resided for the term of one year at least, and making proof to the satisfaction of such Court that he is a person of good character, and taking the oath or affirmation prescribed by law to support the Constitution of the United States, which Oath or Affirmation such Court shall administer, and the Clerk of such Court shall record such Application, and the proceedings thereon; and thereupon such person shall be considered as a Citizen of the United States. And the children of such person so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States. And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens: Provided, that the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States: Provided also, that no person heretofore proscribed by any States, shall be admitted a citizen as aforesaid, except by an Act of the Legislature of the State in which such person was proscribed.
No one is deleting the "subject to the jurisdiction thereof clause." That's just dishonesty from Halbrook.
What they are doing is interpreting it differently than he does - correctly, in accordance with the its normal meaning rather than in some convoluted way based on some mildly ambiguous statements in Congress.
I have no idea what Halbrook's dilettantish dabbling in the 14th amendment issue even is supposed to mean. Nothing about whether the children of illegal aliens are citizens will have the slightest effect on the issue of whether illegal aliens themselves have any 2A rights.
If someone with his record is a dilettante, what does that make you with less of a record?
A nut who thinks an author who died before the Declaration of Independence was "writing about continental law, not Anglo-American common law" in reference to a book that -- according to Ben Franklin "came to us in good season, when the circumstances of a rising State make it necessary to frequently consult the Law of Nations" and "has been continually in the hands of the members of our Congress now sitting." This is a book that was "unrivaled among such treatises in its influence on the American founders."
Ah, you do realize that the American colonies had been around for long enough to develop their own common law by the time of the revolution, right? The British started colonizing North America in the 1600's.
There was no "their own common law" about citizenship in the American colonies. It could only follow English law.
Nieporent wildly misrepresented a book that had huge influence on the Founding Fathers in order to pretend that its take on citizenship could not have reflected their thoughts. It did not reflect US law because of causality, not because of what de Vattel intended to write about. The book certainly influenced and informed their thoughts about law.
Sure, Vattel said plenty of stuff that the founders took note of with respect to international commerce and about travel on the high seas. But there is no evidence that the book had any influence on the founding fathers with respect to citizenship, which is the context we're discussing. Vattel always gets trotted out by the xenophobic crowd; long time VC readers will remember the "Obama isn't a natural born citizen" era based on Vattel's description of how citizenship worked. (Note that Vattel never wrote a single word about the phrase "natural born citizen," but that didn't stop them from claiming that his book proved that Obama wasn't eligible to be president.) Vattel focused on jus sanguinis, which was the continental model.
"Vattel always gets trotted out by the xenophobic crowd; long time VC readers will remember the "Obama isn't a natural born citizen" era based on Vattel's description of how citizenship worked. "
I thought the argument there was simply that Obama wasn't born on US territory, (He was, of course, but set that aside for a moment.) and so could only be a natural born citizen by statute, not the birthright clause. Per the statutes regarding citizenship at the time, he indeed would NOT have qualified for natural born citizenship, because although his mother was a citizen, she had not resided within the US for the requisite period prior to his birth.
That's why where he was actually born was so important: He genuinely would not have been a natural born citizen, and thus qualified to be President, had he not been born in the US.
I honestly can't recall any of the birthers ever mentioning Vattel. Their argument was statutory, not constitutional, and rested on a mistaken claim about the location of his birth.
The truth is, it wasn't Obama who failed to be a natural born citizen, it was McCain. He genuinely was not born in the US, and did not qualify for citizenship on a statutory basis at the time of his birth. A subsequent law naturalized him, and purported to have retroactive application, but I don't think you can retroactively alter facts like that, for constitutional purposes.
Per the statutes regarding citizenship at the time, he indeed would NOT have qualified for natural born citizenship, because although his mother was a citizen, she had not resided within the US for the requisite period prior to his birth.
Can you explain this claim a little bit more? As far as I can tell from her bio she lived in the US her entire life.
Up to BHO's birth, I mean.
Yes, but the statute in effect at the time required her to have lived in the US — at the time of childbirth — for a minimum of five years after obtaining the age of fourteen. Since she was only 18 when he was born, and 18 < 5+14, she had not satisfied that requirement.
So if he had been born in Kenya — which of course no sane person thinks happened — he would not have been a citizen at birth, which meant he would not have been eligible for the presidency.
Note that this law has since changed; otherwise Ted Cruz — who really was born outside the U.S. — wouldn’t have been a citizen at birth. But Cruz is 9 years younger than Obama, and the law changed in the interim, so that only 2 years had to be after the age of 14.
Thanks. I actually didn't know about the 14+5 rule.
I'm sure it was discussed thoroughly in the birther literature at the time but once I saw their arguments were BS from the beginning, being based on the false idea he was born in Kenya, I figured the rest was BS also and stopped paying attention.
The simplest explanation is that he *claimed* to be from Kenya when it was convenient for him to do so, as a student at the time. Hence the yearbook.
Our timeline would be completely different were it not for the messy divorce of a sexy Borg.
I can't say definitively that this is wrong about McCain birtherism, but I have a hard time believing that US law at the time wouldn't anticipate the (natural born) status of US citizens' children (military or foreign diplomats) being born outside the United States. Beyond the question of whether the canal zone was US territory for the purposes of immigration law.
The Canal Zone at the time was neither fish nor fowl; it fell into a weird loophole like that part of Yellowstone where one can kill people with impunity. Congress did realize that and fixed it; the issue for McCain was that natural born citizen status (which of course is relevant only to presidential aspirations) probably can't be created retroactively. (Except of course via constitutional amendment.)
(IMO, McCain was likely ineligible.)
He's an experienced litigator… with respect to the 2nd amendment. With respect to the 14th amendment, he's a dilettante.
I think anybody who is an experienced litigator with respect to the 2nd amendment and state laws is, perforce, not a 14th amendment dilettante, because the 14th amendment is the only reason the 2nd amendment applies to the states.
One can accept the 14A application as an initial premise without needing to go any further into 14A, particularly if you're a Holbrook who would always be inclined to accept such a premise.
Sure, you could, but confidently assuming that he's a 14th amendment dilettante just because he specializes in the 2nd amendment? I think that's the sort of thing that needs to be demonstrated, not assumed.
Probably hard to establish it, in light of this book he wrote back in '98.
then children born in the U.S. of parents here unlawfully or temporarily – who have no allegiance to the U.S. – will be citizens. Why would it be assumed that such children would have allegiance to the United States?
Well, that's a hell of a DNF conclusion. Let's ask the sneaky, illegal parents: "Do you want to be citizens and stay?"
All together now: "Hell, yes!" They long for it. Even birth tourism recognizes the shitty, dictatorial and corrupt-laden hellholes they come from, a last gasp effort to give their child a better life, here.
It's goofy arguments like this why I've been loudly gut punching Democrats on their traitorous (how else to describe raw, piglike power grabs?) behavior of importation and encouragement of massive numbers of illegals, to shift redistdicting every 10 years.
But the proper response is not to play silly games like redefining birthright citizenship, something we can be proud of (re-read the above!)
I knew the Republicans had gone off into the weeds when they started taking a squat all over the words on the Statue of Liberty, because the unfaithful, rotten to the core Democrats started pushing it...in service to their insidious attempts at massive illegal immigration, pardon my French, but what evil, nasty fucks. Which side? Yes.
That's when I saw red. Just unfaithful power mongers on both sides playing their lying games in service thereto.
That's not how naturalization works at all.
(And what does "DNF" mean? Disjunctive normal form? Duke Nukem Forever? Did Not Finish?)
"Does not follow," I think.
It's how we defined naturalization in 1790.
The assumption that the people in question have no allegiance to the US rests entirely on the fact that we won't let them.
I too was struck by that weird argument by Halbrook. Not to be circular, but it would be assumed that such children would have allegiance to the U.S. because they're citizens. Just like every other birthright citizen.
(To be clear, I reject the rhetorical legerdemain of pretending that the 14th amendment says "allegiance" rather than "jurisdiction," and then anachronistically applying the modern conception of allegiance as a feeling of personal devotion or loyalty.)
As I read down the whole post, I kept thinking of Ernest Borgnine in Ice Station Zebra, I think it was. They're in a sub under the Arctic during the Cold War, and some officer suspects his character, being Russian, and he responds angrily.
"I am an American by choice, not by accident of birth!"
It does not follow that a country calling someone a citizen by birth means that individual has allegiance to that country -- that is a circular argument for citizenship. It follows that a child would have whatever allegiance their parents raise them to hold.
then by all means, inquire of the parents for the child, inquire of the adult when adult. Maybe the social contract could be more formal.
Of course it's a circular argument; that's why I was criticizing Halbrook for trying to employ it.
It does not follow that a country calling someone a citizen by birth means that individual has allegiance to that country -- that is a circular argument for citizenship. It follows that a child would have whatever allegiance their parents raise them to hold.
This seems to be the circular one, confusing legal allegiance with social allegiance.
Here's what the parents tell them when they're 18 and the US makes them choose: get yer ass into the US.
"then children born in the U.S. of parents here unlawfully or temporarily – who have no allegiance to the U.S. – will be citizens. Why would it be assumed that such children would have allegiance to the United States?"
Maybe, just maybe, the clause applies to the parents, not the child?
"I knew the Republicans had gone off into the weeds when they started taking a squat all over the words on the Statue of Liberty"
The inscription of the statue applies to legal immigrants; they did when in was donated, they do now.
(those who illegally enter the country, by border crossing or visa overstay, or whatever means, are not immigrants, they are criminals)
First of all, by definition people who overstay their visas did not "illegally enter the country" at all.
Second, yes, those who commit the misdemeanor of entry without inspection are technically criminals (as is everyone who drives a car in the United States), but that in no way means that they "are not immigrants."
Kevin Williamson had some interesting points about the practical reality of "overstaying your visa" while awaiting green card approval. It explains why it's so easy to round up people at green card hearings. Their entry visas have frequently lapsed, but they can't leave the country while the green card is in review.
https://thedispatch.com/article/immigration-criminals-green-card-arrests-trump/
Proud of a policy of birth tourism for citizenship? That's real stupid, sir. Even Democrat Harry Reid understood that.
It's also not what the drafters the citizenship clause intended. "Sojourners" are referenced in the congressional debate. They weren't considered included.
Proud of the fact that people want to come here? Sure, maybe. Although, if it's just to benefit themselves, freeload, or take advantage of our stupidity then maybe not.
Your logic is apparently that you can just ask anyone in the world if they want to be in the US, and if they say "hell yeah" that means they have allegiance to the US? Oof. You're not the one to be calling others' arguments goofy! Allegiance here refers to a legal obligation and status, not some mushy feelings.
The key that's missing from your understanding the mutuality of consent with respect to the bringing of newcomers into the subjectship jurisdiction and exclusive allegiance of the U.S. In the newly innovated conception of the U.S., the newcomer has the inalienable right to cast off prior allegiances and embrace a new one. But the U.S. also has the right to decide whether to admit the newcomer into such political allegiance and benefits.
Yes, they were.
I don't speak for him, but no. People here by definition owe allegiance (in the 19th century sense) to the U.S. (Except for diplomats yada yada yada.)
Sure, if we're talking about naturalization. But birthright citizenship — which is what we're discussing here, and as the name implies — is not about any such mutual anything or any consent. It's automatic. Indeed, the entire point of the 14th amendment was to confirm that your notion was not the basis of American citizenship. That was Taney's view: that we never consented for black people to be citizens. The 14th amendment says, "So what? They are anyway."
Yes, I'm familiar with your unique view that "allegiance" is fully synonymous with "subject to laws."
Your view is at odds with all the scholars I'm aware of who have written in favor of the pro-birth tourism view. Whereas they simply reject the idea that "allegiance" is relevant, it's nice that you half-concede the point. But then you define "allegiance" down to nothing more than the mere temporal obligation to obey laws. And if I recall correctly, you define allegiance very exclusively in that way, so a German citizen who is here on vacation has absolutely no allegiance to Germany in your view, correct?
To be clear, I don't really care what "allegiance" might mean, because that's not the term used in the actual constitution; STTJT is. So, in fact, I do reject its relevance. But assuming arguendo that it's relevant, yes, that is indeed my view in a 19th century context: that one owes full allegiance to the sovereign where one is (except diplomats yada yada).
Wong Kim Ark treats allegiance and jurisdiction as synonymous.
Allegiance vs. Subject to the jurisdiction aside, again, your talk seems lousy with social allegiance, not legal, as if people coming here to be here are not socially allegiant.
Again, Ernest Borgnine in Ice Station Zebra: "I am an American by choice, not by accident of birth!" The kids born here, but with dual citizenship, are given a choice at 18, pick one.
Given some of the Putin apologia around here, to say nothing of Nazi, I wonder if some here have social allegiance to freedom itself, or if their mind is so poisoned by American internecine politics, they would throw in with any and all other factions just to gather a critical mass.
Don't forget the snake oil anti-vaccine salesmen!
My view is expressly endorsed by the explicit text of Wong Kim Ark!
The test for "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" is a simple one. Does the United States have jurisdiction over them? If the Justice Department wants to arrest them for something, can they get out of it using diplomatic or other immunity? If they can't, then they are subject to our jurisdiction.
Seems to me that if the US can kick them out, that's exercising jurisdiction over them.
Seems to me, by that standard we bossed around a lot of German soldiers during WWII. All citizens, as a result?
I would suggest that subject to the jurisdiction of the US military is the not the same as the jurisdiction of the United States, but it's moot point anyway as those German soldiers were not born in the United States, so there is no need for the jurisdiction test.
OK, so if they'd managed to invade the US, it would be different?
My point is, governments act against people who are "not subject to the jurisdiction thereof" all the time.
Then we are back to my first point about military jurisdiction being distinct from civil. For example soldiers in an invading army wouldn't be charged with possessing unregistered machine guns.
Well that's the point of invading soldiers. They would fall under some international rules of war treatment and not your prosaic laws.
Kicking them out, if your country should be so lucky to dominate the situation, does not become jurisdiction. It's the opposite, like diplomatic immunity, a different set of rules.
No speeding tickets for their tanks. No murder charges for the bodies. Violated FAA-regulated air space? Ooh, the fines for that sound nasty.
You'll note the reliance on "It's an invasion!" sophistry, to work around the problems. I've even pointed out archaeologists have described mass migrations as invasions but not military in style. One dirt layer is one culture, and a hundred years up a completely new one, and, pre-written history, nobody is sure what really happens. We could be on a schedule like that, it seems.
Children born to an invading enemy is actually a well-established example of those who don’t have birthright citizenship. It hasn’t been used much lately in the United States, but it exists.
I mean, besides the fact that enemy soldiers are generally not charged with arson, murder, and jaywalking, there's also the detail that they have to be BORN here, not just be here. Otherwise every tourist would be a citizen.
Kicking them out is like the *one* thing we can do to diplomats. That's not really enough to say we have jurisdiction.
Tell it to Danny Glover.
No. That's how the word "jurisdiction" is commonly thought of today. But it's not what it meant in the citizenship clause.
"What do we mean by "subject to the jurisidction of the United States" Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means."
- Trumbull
He then went on to explain how Indians were not subject to jurisdiction, due to the fact that they owed allegiance to a quasi-foreign sovereign, and the fact that they were not subject to laws within their territory was to illustrate the quasi-foreign nature of the tribes.
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms predates the US C institution which recognizes the right and is commanded to not infringe it.
How can any person, regardless of nationality, have their arms taken away?
Go ask any US citizen who cannot afford the background check, fingerprinting, and training mandated by some states to exercise their natural right, "guaranteed by the US Constitution.
How can any person, regardless of nationality, have their arms taken away?
Can a thirteen-year-old who murders someone have their arms taken away? Such a teenager is a person.
The 2A speaks of "the right of the people," and it is reasonable to suggest that those not a member of that class [an obvious example in 1787 would be slaves, but it might also involve foreigners] are not protected.
Put aside that the amendment is not literally absolute. That wasn't what any reasonable person thought at the time, and it isn't the case now.
There are other concerns (e.g., equal protection), but speaking of the 2A alone, there are "persons" who can have arms taken away, including the insane or whatever.
Let's be clear: The Bill of Rights, including the 2nd amendment, were supposed to be incorporated through the P&I clause, not some oxymoronic "substantive due process", which was just a work-around to resume incorporation without overturning Slaughterhouse.
The P&I clause expressly restricts its reach to citizens.
Therefore 2nd amendment rights are limited to citizens.
That argument might say something about the Second Amendment as incorporated against the states, but the Second Amendment has always directly limited what the federal government may do, regardless of the P&I Clause's wording, and Title 18 of the U.S. Code codifies certain federal statutes.
Yes, that's where "the People" comes into play. The 2nd amendment assigns the right to "the People". The Court has defined "the People" more expansively than just citizens, (Improperly, I think, but it has.) so the federal government is probably foreclosed from denying Green card holders from owning guns.
But illegal aliens and tourists unambiguously are neither citizens nor members of "the People" even in its most expansive definition, so they're out in the cold whether state or federal.
This may or may not be Brettlaw, but I just want to reiterate that even if Brett is 100% correct, it doesn't have the first damn thing to do with the issue of birthright citizenship. (I don't think Brett is claiming otherwise, but Halbrook is claiming that it does.) The question of what rights non-citizens have is entirely separate from the question of who is a citizen.
I think you have gotten the direction of legal causation in his argument backwards. Indeed, the question of what rights non-citizens have is entirely separate from the question of who is a citizen, and I don't think Halbrook would disagree with that.
Rather, his argument works in the OPPOSITE direction:
If you accept that, for federal purposes at least, the 2nd amendment only applies to citizens, then it very much matters who is a citizen. And thus whether birthright citizenship applies to the children of illegal aliens IS, in fact, relevant to whether they are protected by the 2nd amendment.
But if that's all he's saying then I have no idea what the point of his writing is. Is he just echoing CJ Taney: "These people couldn't possibly be citizens because if they were they'd have the RKBA"?
The recurring disparaging of "Brettlaw" is exhausting. Either refute his position with other law or precedent, or remain silent conceding its a valid position not yet explicitly affirmed by any court.
What he says makes sense to this similar non-lawyer, what little of read about the curious word choice in 2A. I agree that Halbrook is off the rails in this blog entry, outside his area of expertise. As I think any other lawyer here who attempts to opine on "the people" without any expertise, or at least bringing a counter-argument to the table.
The simple interpretation is that all federal firearms laws are unconstitutional. That's obviously not how it worked out in the courts.
I suppose an exception could be made for restrictions on convicted felons.
I don't really see how, because it's a bit of a constitutional over-reach for the federal government to add penalties to state felony convictions that the state didn't choose to impose at sentencing.
Of course, at the time that penalty was adopted, the courts were pretending that gun ownership was just a privilege, not a right, so denial of it was not legally treated as a penalty, just an administrative matter in regards to a privilege the government had no need to extend in the first place.
Yes, and this is why I understood Taney's motivation to drive the Dred Scott case into the ditch: because he presumed that things like the right to bear arms was a fundamental right of citizenship, so he needed to deny that to any/all blacks. Lest others be inspired by John Brown's Harpers Ferry raid to arm themselves. Not the franchise, because at that time nobody thought every citizen meant suffrage.
Up until the 1880s, immigration was relatively open and there were labor shortages.
I doubt congress considered the idea of restrictive immigration one way or the other, except maybe as an abstract idea 6000 miles away. There were no pregnancy tourists, given the risk and time; if families did come here it was to homestead and there was plenty of land to be hand, if you could defend it.
The median age was twenty years old. People just didnt move around the way they do today.
That's not exactly wrong, but it's not entirely true. Lots of people came to the U.S. with the intent to return to their home countries after a period of time. (Wong Kim Ark's parents themselves did that, for instance.)
The initial qualification for citizenship was pretty simple.
Have you lived here for a number of years?
Have you behaved well?
Do you declare allegiance to the US?
https://immigrationhistory.org/item/1790-nationality-act/
That said, re-reading this I can see the argument that there was no consideration of granting citizenship to the children, apart from the parents. Children up to age 21 were granted citizenship at the same time as the naturalized parents. There's no carve out for children who were born here.
At the same time, it was a moot question. If the parents didn't naturalize, the kids could do it themselves at age 21.
They didn't automatically confer citizenship upon the children of people who did not themselves request citizenship. Honestly, that would be rather presumptuous, don't you think? These kids had citizenship claims elsewhere, and their parents might intend to go home.
All that said, at best we can argue that the 14th amendment didn't consider the children of immigrants, and now they get the benefit of sloppy language.
"persons temporarily resident in it whom we would have no right to make citizens…."
quote from the post that reinforces the idea of not granting citizenship to the children of aliens, unless they requested it.
Interesting that a 2A lawyer has the best explanation of the history of the birthright-citizenship arguments I've ever read. I'm not sure what to make of it yet but I am better informed for having read it. Thank you.
As I said up above, don't be terribly surprised. You could say he wrote the book on it.
Original understanding, to the degree it matters (IMHO only so much), does provide a stronger argument for a right to personal ownership of arms under the 14A than the 2A alone.
It also counsels against a narrow reading of birthright citizenship, which would bring with it a collection of unfortunate results harming people who are protected as citizens.
The federal appellate courts have consistently held that illegal aliens are subject to the federal gun ban because they are not protected by the Second Amendment.
At some point, I think undocumented immigrants (who are "persons") have a "liberty" to self-defense, and a complete erasure of it is a violation of due process.
"The federal appellate courts have consistently held that illegal aliens are subject to the federal gun ban because they are not protected by the Second Amendment. "
This is very interesting. If they are NOT protected by the Second Amendment, then they are NOT protected by any of them.
Not at all. Illegal aliens are persons, but not members of “the people.” The 2nd Amendment, like a few others, applies by its terms only to “the people.” Most amendments apply to any “person.” But a few others are broader still. The 6th and 13th Amendment applies to “the accused” and to a “party” respectively, whether or not meeting the definition of a “person.”
I see the 2nd Amendment and the Citizenship Clause of the 14th Amendment as requiring two different analyses. However, as I see it, both analyses are textual rather than based on any concept history or tradition. The 2nd Amendment’s use of the term “the people” is, as I see it, controlling. This has nothing to do with Bruen’s history and tradition analysis. The definition of “the people,” like “person,” is a textual inquiry. The term appears in multiple constitutional procisions and means the same in all (US v. Verdugo-Irwuidez). It is not tied to any one. So how to analyze the 2nd Amendment specifically is irrelevant. Citizens are members of “the people.” Lawful permanent residents quite likely are as well. Legal temporary visitors and illegal aliens of any kind are not.
Similarly, the Citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment was clearly intended to cover both recently-freed slaves, who had been born legally aliens (per Dred Scott) considered not legally competent to have allegiances, and former Confederates who continued to refuse to declare allegiance and hence perceived themselves as having no duty of allegiance to the United States.
It seems to me that any concept of history and tradition based on theories of allegiance is completely inconsistent with the applicability of the 14th Amendment to those two groups. And since those two groups constituted the main groups the Framers of the 14th Amendment had in mind when enacting the 14th Amendment and to which all at the time agreed it applied, an allegiance-based gloss is not only totally incompatible with originalism, it is totally incompatible with history.
How do we determine whether a newborn child is “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States without engaging in conclusory, or circular, reasoning?
Because “subject to the jurisdiction of” has a definite meaning. Unlike foreign ambassadors and consuls who have diplomatic immunity from American law, and unlike Indians who at the time the 14th Amendment was passed were considered citizens of foreign nations with their own laws and concepts of citizenship, American law applies to a child born in the United States from the moment of its birth.
Well, I’m not surprised it has a “definite meaning”. But what is the source of that “definite meaning”? Did Congress at some point pass a law saying that? Could they therefore pass a different law?
Otherwise, what you are asserting is both conclusary and circular: the baby is a citizen, and is therefore subject to the jurisdiction of local law; the baby is subject to the jurisdiction of local law, and is therefore a citizen.
I am not only pointing out the difficulty of showing that a new-born is “subject to” any jurisdictional interface beyond the bare assertion. There is also the problem that, for many if not most international travelers, the baby is at birth a citizen of the parents’ country, and is therefore, for many purposes, subject to the jurisdiction of their home country.
No, people are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States if the US can prosecute them for a crime if they commit one. There are well-established exceptions that American courts don’t have jurisdiction over as a matter of immunity, long-standing international law, or practicality.
They include ambassadors and consuls with diplomatic immunity, sailors on foreign ships in a US port, members of an invading army occupying a portion of the United States, and, in the days when Indian tribes were regarded as foreign nations, members of an Indian tribe.
sailors on foreign ships in a US port,
OT, but this interests me. Does the immunity only apply to sailors who are actually on board the ship, or only to crimes committed on the ship? Is the assumption that it's the business of the foreign country, not the US, to prosecute such crimes?
What if a sailor, firing while aboard, shoots and kills someone on shore? Surely the US can prosecute the case. No?
Apparently the law of maritime jurisdiction has been changed since the 19th century by a series of 20th century treaties and conventions, and 14th Amendment citizenship changed with it. Today, only sailors on a foreign warship or other government-owned ship not engaged in commerce would be considered immune and children born on them not citizens. Merchant and commercial ships, private yachts, etc. are subject to US jurisdiction when in US waters, and children born on them are citizens.
This makes the answer to your question easier. If a foreign warship fires onto the shore in the United States, it’s not a police or ordinary law enforcement matter. It has to be handled diplomatically or militarily. For a foreign merchant ship, private yacht, etc., it’s an ordinary police matter.
Thank you.
"What do we mean by "subject to the jurisidction of the United States" Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means."
Right. A diplomat owes allegiance to someone else — his home country — even while here. The children of non-citizens do not.
See above.
I've been waffling on the statutory history.
But I think it's actually simple. From the beginning, we had little or no limitations on immigration, and we granted citizenship to "Free white" people and their children upon request.
We specifically excluded blacks and natives and then Chinese and then imposed any manner of racial restrictions.
The whole point of the 14th amendment was to end the racism of our birthright citizenship.
We had a supreme court case in 1898 to settle the specifics.
The racists can't accept this, and know they don't have the political support to change the constitution so they want to undo 125 years of history and precedent instead.
This is the Chinese Exclusion Act all over again.
I think it's time to rewatch Blazing Saddles.
No, it's not the Chinese Exclusion Act all over again. Unless you are affirming that aliens not authorized to enter the United States can be kept out. I'm talking about the part of it that denied entry to Chinese or their eligibility ever to apply to become naturalized citizens. Not what it or other law might have said attempted to do with their children born in the United States.
Not at all. We can still exclude whomever we want. We can enact another Chinese Exclusion Act, or for that matter a Muslim Exclusion Act, tomorrow if Congress wishes.
Birthright citizenship establishes who in this country is a citizen automatically, as a matter of right. But it has nothing to do with either who can enter this country from outside it, or who, not having birthright citizenship, can be naturalized as as a citizen. Both remain a matter of Congress’ discretion.
No. We had native American citizens before the citizenship clause. We had Chinese, "Gypsies", Irish, German, and all manner of races as citizens before the clause - to the chagrin of some racists. There was the Dred Scott problem, which was addressed by legislation and by the clause. But otherwise the clause was intended to be "simply declaratory" of what the law already was.
Yes: jus soli. Birthright citizenship.
Except they said sojourners and all others having foreign allegiance were not subject to jurisdiction in the meaning of the clause.
They did not say that about sojourners, and — as discussed — you're misunderstanding "allegiance."
"persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, [and those] who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers…."
If you think that a particular phrase should be interpreted a certain way, do have to make arguments and persuade people that the phrase should be given your preferred interpretation, or do you get to just pop in words enclosed in brackets that give the phrase your preferred meaning?
Wow. It was a long post so I glanced past and missed that subterfuge. A few years ago Michael Anton famously inserted an "[or]" there, but I've never seen an "[and those]" before. It's incredibly dishonest, and obviously so since foreigners and aliens are the same thing; it can't legitimately be read as a list of three things.
You have to make arguments to persuade, of course.
Worth noting that such arguments have been made, if not here then elsewhere. A full reading of the record shows that the bracketed words are an accurate and honest clarification of the sentence. Those who wish to interpret it the other way would insert different words to clarify the sentence or make it grammatically incomplete, but they don't have good arguments for it.
The Burlingame-Seward Treaty, signed on the same day that the Fourteenth Amendment was certified as ratified,... provided that "nothing herein contained shall be held to confer naturalization upon citizens of the United States in China, nor upon the subjects of China in the United States." That being the case, surely it was not understood that a person born of Chinese subjects in the United States, without more, had birth-right citizenship under American law.
This is pure conjecture, over broad and based on nothing but Halbrook's opinion.
Halbrook argument assumes its own premise, that if a parent can’t be naturalized then the child can’t be a native born citizen. The court rejected this “reasoning” in Wong Kim Ark, pointing out that negroes also couldn’t be naturalized in 1868. “If congress could control who is a natural born citizen with its naturalization laws then Congress could at any time deny negroes born here citizenship by striking them from the naturalization laws, and the 14th amendment never served its purpose”
Halbrook is a White supremicist who thinks only Whites can be citizens. It would be nice if he weren’t so cowardly and just said the quiet part out loud.
Wow, we finally found a group of people Halbrook thinks don't have gun rights!
And we also find out that, unlike David Kopel, who combines 2nd amendment absolutism with libertarianism, Halbrook is just a plain old fascist.
I’m glad Halbrook finally removed his mask and admitted his racism. In US v. Wong Kim Ark the government tried arguing that citizenship was race based and Asians couldn’t be natural-born citizens. Fortunately the court never bought that line of reasoning. If Wong Kim Ark is overturned citizenship could be restricted to Whites which would please Halbrook very much.