The Volokh Conspiracy
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Is "Impeding Travel for Many Students" as Part of a Protest First Amendment-Protected Speech?
The First Circuit says "yes." Really?
Eugene has already blogged about Stand With Us v. MIT, a recent case in which the First Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the dismissal of a hostile environment claim against MIT brought on behalf of Jewish students.
Eugene's post focused on the question of whether a university can be required to suppress speech intensely hostile to Israel and/or Zionists to avoid hostile environment liability. The court said "no," Eugene approves, and as a general matter, I agree.
However, the, court went well beyond that holding, into what I consider bizarre, obviously incorrect legal reasoning. I was particularly struck by this passage:
Our conclusion that plaintiffs have failed to allege actionable racial harassment consists of three parts. To begin, most of the conduct about which plaintiffs complain is speech protected by the First Amendment, and we do not construe Title VI as requiring a university to quash protected speech. Furthermore, by gathering together in groups on campus, disrupting campus tranquility, and impeding travel for many students, the protestors did not render their speech antisemitic, much less unprotected.
Wait, what? Of course, the fact that the students broke MIT rules by, e.g., occupying parts of buildings and building an illicit encampment ("disrupting campus tranquility" and "impeding travel for many students") did not render related protected speech unprotected. But the actions themselves were unprotected, right?
Not according to the court. Here is the key passage:
Here, the student protestors engaged in speech on a matter of public concern -- the conflict in Gaza -- while on the campus of a private university in which they were enrolled. MIT chose to restrict that speech in part and allow it to continue in part. Now, plaintiffs seek to hold MIT liable, under a federal statute, for its failure to curtail that speech even further.
The theory seems to be that if students were breaking campus rules, and the law, on a private campus while engaging in a protest, that their protest nevertheless constituted protected speech activity unless and until the private university, MIT, ordered them to stop.
That doesn't make any sense to me. Let's say a group of protestors converge on the public sidewalk at the corner of my block, engaging in protected speech. Then, a subgroup of them peel off, and camp out in my driveway, and chant slogans there. For whatever reason, I choose not to ask them to leave my property, nor do I call the police--but I also don't tell them they are permitted to stay. The protestors are still breaking the law, and their "speech," i.e., their protest on my lawn, is not protected by the First Amendment.
I suppose one could argue that I have implicitly given permission by not calling the police, but that strikes me as incorrect. And it seems egregiously in the context of the MIT protest, because not only were the protestors breaking MIT rules, not only were they trespassing and thus violating the law, but "impeding travel for many students" may well be a violation of the 1871 Civil Rights Act (the KKK Act), which bans conspiracies to deprive individuals of their civil rights. MIT can't waive that violation, constructively or otherwise.
The court goes on to suggest that while MIT could, as a private university, restrict student speech, it can't be obligated to do so under Title VI because the speech was pro-Palestinian or anti-Israel.
That's true, but the court completely ignores the menacing nature of the actions taken by the protestors. According the facts alleged in the complaint, which the court was required to accept as true at this stage of the litigation, at the encampment students chanted, in Arabic, slogans that included: "From water to water, Palestine is Arab!"; "Palestine is free, Israel out"; "We want to talk about the obvious, we don't want to see Zionists"; "The iron gates of Al Aqsa, open for the martyr!"; and "From water to water, death to Zionism!"
Also according to the complaint, a Jewish student had previously been assaulted by a masked protestor during the occupation of a building lobby. That protest was sufficiently menacing that MIT Hillel sent out a warning to its email list cautioning students to avoid the area.
The encampment, meanwhile, took place across from Hillel. The court acknowledged that
its impact on Jewish students was plausibly heightened. Indeed, plaintiffs allege that they moved a scheduled Passover seder "to an alternate location" because MIT had not yet cleared the encampment and thus students did not feel comfortable attending the seder at Hillel. But plaintiffs allege no facts to plausibly indicate that the protestors chose Kresge Lawn for their encampment because of its proximity to Hillel rather than for its prominent location and preferred terrain for tents.
The court here seems to entirely miss the point. The question is not whether the encampment intentionally placed next to Hillel. Rather, it's whether a reasonable Jewish student was being subject to a hostile environment sufficiently pervasive so as to be deprived of educational opportunities.
That question must be considered in context, and in context the question is whether when you have (a) masked students chanting violent slogans; (b) a history of at least one assault by in a related protest; (c) an national environment in which other Jewish students were being assaulted by anti-Israel protestors; and (d) an encampment that violated pre-existing campus rules, the encampment created a reasonable fear of violence such that the university was obligated to enforce its own rules to avoid creation of a hostile environment for Jewish students.
The plaintiffs presented tangible evidence of that fear, the fact that they moved their Passover Seder from the Hillel building and thus away from the encampment. The court treats this as if the encampment simply made the students feel uncomfortable due to the encampment's message, rather than acknowledging that the students feared at best having their religious ceremony disrupted by masked protestors, and moreover that any such disruption would include violence.
The plaintiffs also alleged that because of intimidation and threats they were unable to attend classes, lectures, and Hillel events. The court argues, in turn, that the hostile speech experience by the students could not be deemed sufficiently severe and pervasive to constitute a hostile environment.
In doing so, the court makes the error of considering violent and occasional overtly antisemitic rhetoric, the violence and looming threats thereof, and the disruptions caused by the violations of unenforced campus rules and the law independently, as opposed to as a holistic environment.
A recent article in the Harvard Law Review Forum makes the same error. In a response I will soon be posting online, I conclude:
Professors Eidelson and Hellman correctly remind us that the First Amendment limits the extent to which universities may restrict political expression, even when it is grossly offensive. But their analysis undervalues the contextual dimension that makes certain rhetoric—such as calls to "globalize the intifada" or to achieve "liberation by any means necessary"—qualitatively different from mere advocacy or protest. When such slogans (1) are shouted in concert by masked demonstrators affiliated with organizations credibly tied to groups that glorify or sponsor violence, and when these chants (2) coincide with a measurable surge of physical assaults, arson, and death threats directed at Jewish students and American Jews more generally, and the chants (3) are accompanied by illicit campus behavior by a subgroup of the chanters, against whom preexisting rules are not enforce, they operate as components of a broader campaign of intimidation that materially interferes with Jewish students' ability to learn, assemble, and participate fully in university life.
Title VI's "reasonable person" standard must be applied with fidelity to that social reality. Courts .. should recognize that fear of violence, when grounded in contemporaneous incidents and credible threats, constitutes a legitimate and legally cognizable injury. Universities, for their part, may not invoke free-speech principles as a shield for inaction when the protected expression is intertwined with rule-breaking, harassment, or violence. Courts may not transform the First Amendment from a safeguard of discourse into an instrument of impunity for rioting, vandalism, building takeovers and other actions that create the sort of disorder from which violent antisemitism naturally springs.
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This is part of the mostly-leftist idea that you have a right to "protest" above and beyond the right to assemble and speak -- that you can trespass, vandalize, disturb the peace, obstruct traffic, and so forth. The test should be very simple: would you be allowed to do whatever it is just for the heck of it? If not, then you can't do it as part of a protest. End of discussion.
I agree. The contrary position has always puzzled me in the context of speech. People say things like they have a right to march in the streets. I don't believe so. The streets are for vehicular traffic not a venue for protest. If I was sitting in the middle of the road to relax, they would move me. If they move someone out of the street for any reason, including for speech, then that seems like a reasonable neutral regulation.
I agree that if they let Republicans march in the streets but arrest Democrats for doing so, that is an impermissible speech based regulation. But protesting in the street obstructing traffic or on campus obstructing students from going from A to B in my mind are not protected activities.
Is it? If it's private land, as long as inpediment doesn't rise to something like false imprisonment, is it violating anything? If the U allows it, that's that.
Note this is not the same as if there's some laws about harrassment or whatever one gets to sue over. Was the court suggesting the impedence was part of the protected speech? I am not so sure, but it is irrelevant as there was apparently no foul there, either.
You mean as long as a private university allows the protestors to be there? Then they run into the Title VI problem if they are allowing what was discussed in the article.
And I tend to agree with the author that this activity is separate from the speech component. Calling it speech confuses the issue.
wvattorney13, you're correct that calling it "speech" confuses the issue. Speech necessarily is conduct. Words without conduct are not speech. Words without conduct are mere thoughts. Far more accurate than "speech" would be th words "expression" and "communication." But the people who wrote and ratified our Constitution wanted to very broadly protect our freedoms and our rights to think for ourselves, express ourselves and communicate with each other, so they used mere idioms (long-standing idioms) like "freedom of religion," "freedom of speech," "freedom of the press" or "liberty of the press," "right to assemble" or "right to petition." Those very people had long used conduct as expression, e.g., demonstrating, protesting, flying flags, erecting Liberty Poles and burning effigies of hated political figures. We (including state, federal and local governments) have long used public streets for such purposes, including for parades and street fairs.
MIT is not a public street, and at MIT, and even on public streets under the First Amendment, speech is subject to reasonable time, place, and manner regulations. Not occupying buildings, parts of campus, disrupting classes, or blocking other students' way all fall within that category. In fact, those go beyond "reasonable" and into "essential" if you want to have a proper campus environment where debate is conducted through communication rather than intimidation.
You keep saying "occupying buildings" but that's not what the case appears to be about.
Furthermore, by gathering together in groups on campus, disrupting campus tranquility, and impeding travel for many students...
I read this as observing that by their very nature, large protests "disrupt tranquility" and "impede travel" much like when you, David, are huffing and puffing your way up a narrow staircase you're impeding the travel of the throng of healthy people held up behind you.
If you require protests to have no perceptible impact to anyone else, that effectively prohibits protests. Which is, of course, your fascist motive.
I don't read the article that way. It suggests that THIS protest and THESE protesters are conducting themselves in a way that does those things.
The whole point of the article is that you can disagree that these things are happening and then it would be free speech, but the court seems to hold that even if these things are happening, it is nonetheless protected insofar that MIT cannot be faulted for allowing it.
IOW, there are two competing interests, according to the court: the right of the students to protest and the duty imposed on MIT by statute to not allow a hostile campus according to the Civil Rights Act. The court finds that the duty to provide a non-hostile campus does not require MIT to suppress free speech.
The author complains that this answers the wrong question, that what the students are doing is conduct unprotected by the 1A such that MIT does have a duty to prohibit it.
Oh I know what the author is complaining about. He thinks that all pro-Palestinian protests are by their very nature "menacing" to Jewish student pussies who are apt to become paralyzed with fear when confronted with phrases such as "Palestine is Arab" and "Jewish student pussies."
He cloaks that complaint in vague allegations of intimidation which fall apart upon examination. Here, he does it by continuing to bring up "occupation of buildings" and such, which weren't, as far as I can tell, part of the case at all.
You are doing what the author is complaining about by dividing and conquering. You are saying that the phrases themselves that are being said are not unlawful because X. The location where the protesters are is not unlawful because Y. The statements made to students are okay because Z.
He is saying that if you look at everything in totality, it is an intimidating environment unprotected by the 1A.
I don't think you're reading my posts.
He is saying that if you look at everything in totality, it is an intimidating environment unprotected by the 1A.
And I'm saying he's wrong to the point of being dishonest. The totality doesn't include occupying buildings, even though he's claimed as much repeatedly. It doesn't include disrupting classes or blocking students. He's making all that up in order to pretend like there's some sort of totality that the court is ignoring.
But it's all a fantasy. The reality is, protests always come with some inherent amount of disruption. They take up space. They're loud. They're distracting. Those aspects of protests can't be enough to cause them to lose First Amendment protection or else no protest would enjoy First Amendment protection. That's the point of the court.
Beyond that I'm just making fun of David's transparently fascist motivations and thin skin (but thick everything else).
21 years ago -- October 2004 -- the Red Sox came back from a 0-3 deficit against the New York Yankees in the ALCS and after 86 years, went on to win the World Series for the first time.
That fall the college kids were chanting "Yankees Suck" -- it's only a couple hundred miles down to much larger Yankee Stadium and chants of "Yankees Suck" could be heard.
Fenway Park is "across the tracks" (and now I-90) from Kenmore Square and near the colleges, so it's an understatement to say that the celebrations tended to be tumultuous.
The police responded with force -- shooting to death an Emerson College student who wasn't even doing anything -- and the colleges expelled anyone involved in the "celebrations."
So as to speech, "Yankees Suck" is speech, "Jews Suck" is speech -- and why should the latter be protected when the former is not?
Is this your brain on drugs?
Professor Bernstein — As I have insisted before, the notion of time, place and manner restrictions may have its place with regard to speech. It is hard to justify TPM as a constraint on assembly. The manner part is already Constitutionally specified; it must be peaceable. Agreement among citizens about a time and place to assemble are thus the very essence of the right. A government which can take that away, or even much restrict it, is at least analogous to a government empowered to censor speech content; content being of the essence with regard to speech.
The two rights are not merely alternative manifestations of the same expressive freedom. They were justifiably enumerated separately. They are properly governed by different rules.
That logical argument is supported as well by historical experience. The streets themselves were the customary venues for political assemblies in colonial times. It took the invention of the automobile to change that.
In parts of New England, especially around Boston, that older custom is still reflected in place designations in official use. The very notion of the public square was not, as some suppose, a reference to a public commons, which was and remains a different concept. Thus, although it exists alongside a public commons, Harvard Square is not the commons, it is a street intersection at one corner of the commons.
Throughout Boston and Cambridge there are other, "squares:" Copley Square, Kenmore Square, Davis Square, Sullivan Square, Central Square, Inman Square, and Porter Square all illustrate the same fact, the original meaning of the, "public square," was an important intersection of urban streets.
If we insist on a right of assembly in the public square, then in original usage we are insisting on a Constitutional right to use the public streets for a purpose more protected than customary transportation. To mean what it says in the Constitution, the right of peaceable assembly must imply a right to clear the street to make use of it instead for demonstrations. I do not suppose that implies a right to discriminate among those who wish to be there, but it certainly must imply a right to be free of government interference while demonstrating on the streets.
Can I stand in the middle of the expressway? What if I stand in the middle of the expressway holding a sign that says "Vote Vance" or "Vote Gavin"? Does that make it okay?
More importantly, can I run over you if you do?
Stephen, there were oxcarts and wagons in the 1640s. The open fireplaces burnt a massive amount of firewood (something like 2 cord a room) and it had to be hauled from the docks. Etc.
And as I have responded before, your personal opinion is untethered to anything resembling law. Indeed, time, place, and manner is almost entirely about assembly. It's barely applicable to speech qua speech.
But why you're willing to so deprecate free speech while arguing for much more maximal positions on press and assembly, even though 2 centuries confirm that they're assessed essentially the same way, mutatis mutandis, will continue to be a mystery.
David, you seem to be overlooking the obvious. The freedom at issue belongs to MIT (a private institution), not the students, right? You're objecting to the government not penalizing MIT because of MIT's association with people (and failure to punish people) who said and did certain things, right?
In particular, you objected that the government did not penalize MIT because MIT (in part) merely allegedly allowed "menacing" speech, which you quoted but which didn't sound like anything I think of as menacing. Doesn't "to menace" mean something akin to threatening someone with physical harm?
David thinks "Palestine is Arab" is a violent threat through some chain of motivated logic that mostly involves presumptions of bad faith, the coin of his realm and central axiom of his fallaceprudence.
It's not complicated: By Any Means Necessary.
To the left, the end justifies the means, and the left's ends are sufficiently important to justify ANY means necessary to achieve them.
By contrast, the right's ends, being bad, can't justify any means at all, even perfectly lawful and innocuous means like peaceful conversation. So Charlie Kirk is rightfully killed for trying to engage people in conversation, because he wasn't doing it to advance the left's ends, only the right's.
The left didn't kill Charlie Kirk.
Impleading travel may be prohibitable but it sure isn't ANY MEANS NECCESSARY you drama llama.
You don't live in a political thriller with good guys and bad guys. Quit making up evil leftists to justify your support for terrible things.
Brett, Kirk was killed for exactly what Kirk said was "worth it" a "prudent deal" and "rational." Kirk's own words on this particular subject included the following:
"I think it’s worth it. I think it’s worth it to have [ ] gun deaths every single year so that we can have the second amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal. It is rational."
That was Charlie Kirk at an event organized by TPUSA Faith (the religious arm of Kirk’s conservative group Turning Point USA) on 5 April 2023. Also in 2023, on The Charlie Kirk Show, Kirk even advocated (at least) buying and actively and routinely bearing arms in public, specifically, for political reasons:
"You have a government that hates you. You have a traitor as the president. Buy weapons, I keep on saying that. Buy weapons. Buy ammo. If you go into a public place, bring a gun with you."
Did he say that you should shoot people for political reasons? Because if he didn't, I think your post is outrageously offensive and completely off base.
Jack Jordan seems to have a problem with civil rights
The most telling part is that Kirk was shot with a bolt action WWII rifle-- a hunting rifle.
You know, those same guns that the left tells us that they have NO intention of touching whatsoever and that anyone who says that they want to touch them are just putting forward false propaganda because they would ONLY outlaw so called assault weapons?
But then we hear that Kirk had it coming because he supported keeping the weapon that killed him legal.
Which is it?
lol you think Jack Jordon is a big Libby Lib?
wvattorney13 — Note that nobody has called for any restrictions on bolt action rifles as a precaution against political gun violence. That may be because such weapons are not very well suited, or very popular, for that purpose.
The AR-style rifles seem much preferred. I notice that people on the political right, and people on the political left, both come to that same conclusion.
They seem to differ on what to do in response.
JFK, MLK, Medgar Evers, and of course Charlie Kirk come to mind as assassinations with bolt action rifles. They aren't as popular as handguns for that purpose, but not unheard of.
OTOH, I can't think of a single assassination involving an AR-15. Since you say they are 'much preferred', which incidents do you recall?
(there may be some; it's hard to search because googling 'AR-15 assassination' just gives page after page of pages discussing the attempt on Trump)
(to be clear, I don't think there is any reason an AR would not work for a close-ish range assassination - any rifle would, but your assertion doesn't seem to be that they could be used, but rather that they are used more than bolt actions, and that doesn't seem to match the facts)
Absaroka — Re-read my comment. "Assassinations," is not in it. Just as AR-style rifles were not in widespread use at the time of the killings of JFK, MLK, or Evers. So Kirk is your exception to the rule.
But you also seem to suppose close range is somehow implicated in what I termed, "gun violence." There I could have been more specific. My principal concern is that mass shootings, even at considerable ranges, such as in Las Vegas, will become commonplace among disaffected right wingers.
They make it no secret that they buy AR-style guns for political purposes, exactly as Charlie Kirk advocated they do. Kirk did not specify, AR-style, of course. That was my conclusion, based on looking at the weapons right wingers flaunt at political events.
Maybe let me know the next time you see self-styled militia types toting bolt actions through the streets.
Ah, since you were replying to a post about assassinations I thought that was thee kind of political violence you were talking about.
Sure, AR's have been used for political violence in the wider sense - the attempt on Trump and the attack on the ICE facility in Alvarodo being recent examples. Farther back the Malheur occupation comes to mind.
This is demonstrably untrue. Bolt action hunting rifles are FAR more suited to the purpose of assassination at long range than an AR-15 or similar rifle. That is why hunters trying to hit a deer at long distance prefer these rifles to assault type rifles. They are more accurate and larger caliber. Nobody has reached a different conclusion.
If Crooks had a bolt action rifle in PA he hits Trump.
wvattorney13 — It is demonstrably true that today's mass killers choose AR-style rifles for mass killings far more often than they choose bolt action rifles. Mass killing is the most political kind of killing, as demonstrated by every army ever.
To test your hypothesis to the contrary, I suggest a thought experiment. Hypothetically, the U.S. government manufactures a new model bolt-action rifle, designed for a scope sight, and optimized for long-range shooting and practical carrying in the field. Thus, a general-purpose gun, but not a purpose-built sniper rifle. The new rifle is built to a premium standard in a government arsenal, and made available in most popular calibers, It features no detachable magazine, using instead a 4-shot box magazine, which must be reloaded one cartridge at a time. It is voluntarily exchangeable for any used AR-style rifle, with no cost for the transaction, which may be done anonymously. How many such weapons would a government arsenal have to manufacture to sate private militia demand to exchange their ARs for the new rifles?
That's the experiment. Just tell me that would create an appreciable reduction among privately-owned AR-type firearms, and I will support it as a reasonable means to improve public safety by means of voluntary gun control. I presume you understand that few would be demanded.
Also, there is no point trying to con me with amateur gun lore. I hunted deer, elk, and small game for years in Idaho. I owned various caliber rifles, with different action and magazine types, including bolt actions, lever actions, box magazines, tube magazines, and detachable magazines. I have shot semi-automatics—pistols and rifles—but never owned one of those. I have owned one pistol, a revolver.
I had a close friend who let me shoot the 30-40 Krag his dad brought home from the Spanish American War. I got one shot only. Ammunition was hard to come by.
I also hunted upland birds, avidly, with shotguns of various gauges. I used single-shot shotguns, double-barreled shotguns, and pump shotguns. I did my bird hunting mostly on steep terrain, favoring chukar partridge over pheasants, Hungarian ("grey") partridges, and sage grouse. But I took my share of all of those, and a few spruce grouse besides—birds so confiding that you can literally hunt them successfully with a stick.
I have no doubt I carried guns ready to use for their intended killing purpose for more hours than most of the commenters participating here have done. More hours even than some combat infantry veterans have experienced.
This blog hosts too many commenters who cherish gun expertise developed and tested mostly on gun ranges. Until you have carried loaded guns afield long enough to have made a few dangerous involuntary mistakes—like momentary loss of muzzle control—as anyone who has been afield for countless hours in steep, uneven, and slippery terrain will do, your judgments about gun safety are not to be trusted.
Idaho hunting seasons at the time I lived there began in August, and remained continuously open into the following January. Every year, hunting and fishing were my avocations, and for more than a few years I organized my life around hunting.
After buying and shooting an assortment of rifles, I settled on a scope sighted bolt action Ruger, chambered for .270 Winchester as my most accurate and preferred big game rifle.
But if I had to do it for survival, I could have taken down even a moose with my lever action .22 magnum rabbit hunting gun. The destructive capacity of that cartridge—although far less than .223 Winchester—is not to be underestimated. If I had to trek without provisions through a hundred miles or more of wilderness, the .22 magnum lever action is the gun I would carry with me.
In rural Idaho, it even contributed to success while hitchhiking. Display it prominently in your left hand, stick out your right thumb, and the first pickup by stops to pick you up and find out how you did.
Note that survivalist meat hunting residents of the far north have been known to choose the .22 long rifle cartridge to hunt moose. An article I read said their tactic was to gut shoot an animal repeatedly, and then track it as it bled out. Not sporting, but economical.
My point is twofold. First, please don't try to con me about guns. Second, gun lore unaccompanied by plentiful practical experience tends toward bullshit. I get that if you do not have that level of practical experience, you might not be trying to con anyone, just repeating the cons the gun industry arranges to put in your path.
"If Crooks had a bolt action rifle in PA he hits Trump."
Nah. It's actually the case that Trump moved his head at the very last instant; If he hadn't, it would have been a perfect head shot. A bolt action doesn't do squat about your target moving after you've already started pulling the trigger.
wvattorney13, where did "we hear that Kirk had it coming"? Not from me. That's very clearly not what I said. But did you think that's what Kirk said? For what purpose do you think Kirk said the following to his followers:
"You have a government that hates you. You have a traitor as the president. Buy weapons, I keep on saying that. Buy weapons. Buy ammo. If you go into a public place, bring a gun with you."
For self defense, obviously, not assasination.
No WV -- that rifle was obsolete in the 1930s, the model dates from the 1890s.
Michael, what makes you think that I "have a problem with civil rights"? I'm dedicated to supporting and defending our Constitution (including our rights), and for many years I risked life and limb to do so. For decades, I carried guns, fired guns, and trained people on gun safely and use of force.
I believe very much in what SCOTUS wrote in Bruen and Heller about the Second Amendment. I believe our Constitution secures the rights of self-defense and self-preservation. I don't believe in people encouraging people to think of firearms as a means to resolve political issues.
I don't believe in stupid statements (or implications) like Kirk's: "Buy weapons, I keep on saying that. Buy weapons. Buy ammo. If you go into a public place, bring a gun with you" because "You have a government that hates you. You have a traitor as the president." And "gun deaths every single year" is "worth it" "so that we can have the second amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal. It is rational."
He said we should accept it. Personally, I disagree with Charlie Kirk and think political assassination is outrageous and should not be tolerated.
Where in Kirk's comments did he say or imply that the RKBA protected by the 2A means that people should use their guns for political assassination or murder such that he is now reaping what he sowed?
He said we should accept it. Personally, I disagree with Charlie Kirk and think political assassination is outrageous and should not be tolerated.
wvattorney13 — Given the Kirk quotes above, offered by Jack Jordan, it is hard to accept your question as forthright. Do you doubt that Kirk said the stuff about a government that hates you, and a traitorous president? Was that edited to distort Kirk's meaning, do you think? I ask those questions seriously, because I do not know your answers.
wvattorney13, what words of mine were "outrageously offensive" or "completely off base"? Almost everything in my post was either quoting Kirk or identify the time and place of his statements.
I'm not sure what point people think they are making when they spout stupid crap like this. Most people think it's "worth it" to arm cops for public safety. That doesn't make it OK when cops murder people.
TwelveInchPianist, I'm making the point that Kirk, himself, made. He said people dying "every single year so that we can have the second amendment to protect our other God-given rights" is "worth it," "a prudent deal" and "rational." Kirk said that deaths like his were "worth it."
There's a huge difference between saying that we should have armed public servants (including well-trained, disciplined police and military) to do what they all swore to do (support our Constitution) and saying stupid things like Kirk said (implying that our Constitution somehow authorizes angry men or angry mobs with guns to decide when they should kill someone "to protect our other God-given rights"). Kirk's stupid idea obviously was that angry men or angry mobs with guns can replace legislatures (which define capital offenses), prosecutors (who decide whether to seek the death penalty) and judges and juries (who decide whether the death penalty can be imposed). That's about as unconstitutional (and dumb) as it gets. If Kirk's killer accomplished nothing else even potentially legitimate, at least he did prove Kirk wrong.
Jack Jordan — Do you think the founders intended us to rely on God-given rights? I interpret that as a trailing remnant of pre-Enlightenment thought. I think of the founders as post-Enlightenment, and thus less theocratic.
I concede that the founders were a mixed group, and might have differed on that question. Some might also have thought one way, but advocated the other at times, while selling to an audience.
I doubt there has ever been a time when the American polity was not divided on the question where rights come from. What do you think? What do you suppose the most influential founders thought on that question?
Stephen, you're right that what they thought was mixed, That's part of the reason our Constitution was put into writing and was written to be more clear. Article VI precluded any religious test whatsoever for determining who could be in our government and Amendment I secured freedom to think for ourselves. Both were designed to secure not only freedom of religion but freedom from religion. So our rights do not depend on the opinions or generosity of any actual or purported god. Our rights are a function of our nature as humans.
Stephen, Alexander Hamilton wrote the following as a young man in 1775:
The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power.
I liked his emphasis that our rights are a function of "human nature," so they don't (and cannot) depend on rights that anyone (ever) enumerated in any "old parchments" or "musty records."
If I understand wvattorney13, he is complaining about the pardons granted to the Jan. 6 protesters. They had no right to obstruct the operation of Congress, and their cries of "Hang Mike Pence" take them utterly outside Constitutional protection.
David, importance of the right to protest (but not to do all things you mentioned) was highlighted by a unanimous SCOTUS in New York Times Co. v. Sullivan in 1964 quoting Justice Brandeis, in his concurring opinion in Whitney v. California in 1927:
"Justice Brandeis [ ] gave the principle its classic formulation:
'Those who won our independence believed . . . that public discussion is a political duty; and that this should be a fundamental principle of the American government. They recognized the risks to which all human institutions are subject. But they knew that order cannot be secured merely through fear of punishment for its infraction; that it is hazardous to discourage thought, hope and imagination; that fear breeds repression; that repression breeds hate; that hate menaces stable government; that the path of safety lies in the opportunity to discuss freely supposed grievances and proposed remedies; and that the fitting remedy for evil counsels is good ones. Believing in the power of reason as applied through public discussion, they eschewed silence coerced by law—the argument of force in its worst form. Recognizing the occasional tyrannies of governing majorities, they amended the Constitution so that free speech and assembly should be guaranteed.'
Thus we consider this case against the background of a profound national commitment to the principle that debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open, and that it may well include vehement, caustic, and sometimes unpleasantly sharp attacks on government and public officials."
Justice Brandeis (and subsequently a unanimous SCOTUS) correctly highlighted that one of the most important principles underlying our First Amendment rights and freedoms is that "repression breeds hate" and "hate menaces stable government" so "the path of safety lies in the opportunity to discuss freely supposed grievances and proposed remedies."
Some commenters are noting that this statement seems ridiculous in light of January 6th and all the other overwhelming right-wing political violence that occurs in this country. Some are going as far as to say the OP was made in bad faith.
I'm still seething over the fact that the Free Access to Clinics Act, which makes obstructive pickets illegal [and defines obstructive picketing fairly crisply and makes picketers obey rules that makes it practical for the general public to access the facility normally] but only if the facility targeted for obstructive picketing is an abortion clinic.
It does appear that the FACA act is constitutional because the abortion clinics and only abortion clinics get protected from any kind of obstructive pickets, including those imposed during labor disputes, so it's content neutral. Yeah!
-dk
It also applies to houses of worship.
I've discussed this in another thread.
The law *does* apply to houses of worship, but the giveaway is in the preambular language, which mentions the clinics only and not houses of worship.
Showing what was on the top of the Congressional mind.
Heck, the *title* of the law is a giveaway, because it mentions clinic entrances and not places of worship.
But the law does on occasion get used against disruptors of houses of worship - thus targeting the political kinsmen of the law's proponents.
The proper response to the subgroup on your driveway is to load your M1 Garand and sneer menacingly and say "Get off my lawn".
Question: Is "detaining" someone by preventing them from proceeding on their way kidnapping within the letter of the law?
False imprisonment is usually less severe a crime than kidnapping, but obviously neither is an advisable course of action.
While the specifics will vary from state to state, preventing someone from walking down a certain path is not kidnapping/false imprisonment, but confining someone so that he can't leave at all, would be. (Thus, the block-the-highway protests that the left periodically engage in could plausibly be k/fi.)
David, can you show us any judge that ever agreed with your assertion that mere "block-the-highway protests . . . could plausibly be k/fi [kidnapping/false imprisonment]." That sounds astoundingly extreme to me.
Longtobefree, you might be longing to be free from a jail cell (awaiting trial and sentencing) or from prison (after sentencing). While you're looking up what the law and various judges think is within the letter of the law defining kidnapping, you might also look up what they (and the prosecutor) might think is within the letter of the law defining "brandishing a weapon."
Could this be relevant? An anti-mask law in Massachusetts:
"Whoever disguises himself with intent to obstruct the due execution of the law, or to intimidate, hinder or interrupt an officer or other person in the lawful performance of his duty, or in the exercise of his rights under the constitution or laws of the commonwealth, whether such intent is effected or not, shall be punished by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year and may if imprisoned also be bound to good behavior for one year after the expiration of such imprisonment."
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter268/Section34
It might be relevant; unless the DA is a democrat.
yawn
In Virginia, several Soros-supported prosecutors have literally told campus police that they will not prosecute protestors violating the mask law unless they are committing another felony at the same time.
David, what mask law are you talking about?
"Soros-supported"?
David, the Twitter-huffing has gone on for too long; you're losing it.
The sloppy analysis in the OP raised some concern, but I think this kind of MAGA-speak calls for a wellness check.
These are leftist, ideologically motivated local prosecutors who were swept into office in a wave of such elections, with the financial support of the Soros network, which explains why they won't prosecute felonies by leftist protestors. Soros-supported prosecutors is a fine shorthand.
Again, David - fighting with people on Twitter is making you into an idiot.
Because, of course, the point of my comment wasn't to criticize you for using a label that couldn't be understood by those outside of MAGA. I understood what you meant by the label. Similarly, it's no response at all to simply repeat your coded nonsense, this time with more words. That's just pedantic trolling, intended to pull the critique into a distracting fight about something else.
No, the point of my criticism wasn't that your "shorthand" was vague or even mistaken. The point of my criticism relates to the irrelevance of the term. A prosecutor's actions in office can be criticized for being ideologically-driven, incompetent, counterproductive - see, for example, most of Trump's chosen prosecutors. But calling a prosecutor "Soros-supported" implies none of those things. It's just an empty label, unless it successfully invokes the conspiratorial nonsense about Soros that MAGA treats as common knowledge. That is - this stuff about how obviously anyone funded by Soros is going to be "ideologically motivated" in their prosecutorial discretion and can be counted on to protect leftist protestors. (Why's that, again? Are we allowed to make the same reckless assertions about politicians who've accepted funding from AIPAC - or is that an antisemitic no-no?)
"Soros-supported" is part of the way that MAGA speaks - and, more often than not, with an antisemitic insinuation. As you should know. So I find it odd, really, that any law professor would choose to use this antisemitic, coded language in serious conversation - both because it is antisemitic code, and because a self-aware law professor might not want to invite their audience to conclude that they've come unhinged, like the rest of the MAGA trolls.
I say this in the kindest possible way, David. You've got a brain on your shoulders, unlike that hack, Josh. You've written good things here. But you're getting pickled. You need to unplug and touch grass.
“How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Hostile Environment Law!”
Bernstein, your driveway, where students have no right to be, is not a persuasive analogy for a campus locale where students normally do have a right to be.
The word "normally" does a lot of work there. Students (and others) have a limited license to be on campus to walk to class, to sit on a bench, to meet and talk. But I think it clear that the administration reserves the right to restrict your activity while on campus if your presence starts interfering with others' ability to enjoy the campus.
The only relevant thing that they can't do as the government is to take an action based upon the content of your speech which means if they would allow a group of 10 people to sit in a circle and have a meeting against domestic violence, they must seemingly allow a group of 10 to meet under the same circumstances to advocate legalizing domestic violence.
So, I agree that it is not entirely like sitting in someone's driveway but in some ways it is the same. The university does have the power to regulate anyone's conduct on campus or even go so far as to throw people off of campus.
As pointed out in the main post, MIT is a private university, not a government organization. The government hook here is that MIT receives federal funding for various activities, putting them within the scope of the Civil Rights Act. The First Amendment hook is that the government cannot require MIT to suppress protected speech (or protected expressive activities).
"the government cannot require MIT to suppress protected speech (or protected expressive activities)."
Right. And that is the rub. Nobody is saying the protesters have to shut up and stop saying what they are saying. They have to stop doing what they are doing.
Ah, but if they stopped doing what they are doing, nobody would pay attention to what they were saying, and that makes assaulting people "speech", or at least critical enough to speech to excuse it.
But, see above: Only for the left, not the right.
MIT is also a land grant college.
Which has nothing to do with the discussion, but I guess you felt the need to say it since it's the only thing you know about the school.
A Zionist student or visitor could have felt impeded by the encampment, but a Jewish anti-Zionist student or visitor like my husband did not feel impeded.
Thus, a Jew is not necessarily a Zionist. Further, a Zionist like Biden is not necessarily a Jew,
It is hard to argue that MIT allowed a hostile environment for a Jew to arise either on religious or on ethnic grounds.
Zionism is a political ideology that is functionally equivalent to Nazism in racial supremicism, in genocidal intent, in intent to invade, and in intent to colonize.
"Globalize the uprising (intifada) against Nazism" or "Liberate the (Nazi-occupied) territories by any means possible" would certainly have been unproblematic during the 40s."
MIT is the interpreter of MIT's rules. If MIT had decided to forbid the encampment, the operative Massachusetts precedent would probably have been: Batchelder v. Allied Stores Int’l, Inc., 388 Mass. 83, 445 N.E.2d 590 (1983). This legal precedent is irrelevant because MIT decided to permit the encampment.
The international community banned genocide and made this ban jus cogens on Dec 11, 1946. Depraved white racial supremacist genocidal European Zionist invaders founded the Zionist state by putting long planned genocide into full operation in Dec 1947. This genocide has never ended. Palestinians under Zionist rule from the river to the sea do not live in pace or in bello but have lived in genocidio since Dec 1947. Hamas, Hezbollah, Ansarullah, and Iran, all act in accord with international law and as required by international law.
Publicly supporting the Zionist state as the Zionist state evolves to mass murder genocide at Holocaust levels almost certainly violates:
1. 18 U.S. Code § 1091 - Genocide (a US federal capital crime)
2. 18 U.S. Code § 2339A - Providing material support to terrorists (directly cites § 1091).
The American public is in the process of becoming as anti-Israel as the rest of the world. At some point, a popular political figure will demand to know why the USDOJ is not enforcing US anti-genocide law.
An attorney can be disbarred for inciting a crime. Bar rules treat criminal acts — including solicitation or incitement — as professional misconduct because they reflect adversely on honesty, trustworthiness, or fitness to practice law.
Conviction is not required; credible evidence of incitement alone can trigger investigation, suspension, or disbarment. There is substantial likelihood that within a decade every publicly pro-Zionism attorney will be disbarred.
"Globalize the uprising (intifada) against Nazism" or "Liberate the (Nazi-occupied) territories by any means possible" would certainly have been unproblematic during the 40s."
Pretending your foes are Nazis doesn't actually change anything legally, and given Hamas' actual Nazi roots, it's deeply ironic, too.
"There is substantial likelihood that within a decade every publicly pro-Zionism attorney will be disbarred."
After, or without, show trials?
Without. We'll just "designate" them to be "terrorists" and shoot them. Trump has shown us how!
You mean Obama showed you how?
Always a riot when hamas supporters ignore actual history - that the same poor, downtrodden muslims that they worship were great supporters of german policies towards jews during the 30s and 40s.
Hell, they are still great fans of those policies now. "From the river to the sea." - right livvy?
A propagandist for Zionism tries to distract from ongoing vaporization of families and amputation of limbs of children by means of false and misleading references to events of over 90 years ago.
Is it possible to be more depraved and vile than a Zionist or a supporter of the racial supremacist genocidal Zionist state?
Zionist militias, which became the IDF, committed genocide and murdered members of my family in Ein Karem in 1948 during the long planned genocide, which the Zionist leadership put into full operation in Dec 1947, that has never ended, and that has now reached Holocaust mass murder levels in Gaza.
Genocide is an international and US federal capital crime without a statute of limitations.
Ein Karem was a mostly Christian Palestinian village and reputed home of John the Baptist. Christian and Muslim Palestinians are descendants of Greco-Roman Judeans. The Romans perpetrated no expulsion. When depraved Zionists claim to be returning they steal the history of the ancestors of Palestinians and deny our identity. Lemkin calls denial of identity a major technique of genocide.
“من النهر إلى البحر، فلسطين عربية” is a response to the genocidal Zionist slogan of the 20s and 30s: "הירדן יש שני גדות, זה שלנו וגם זה השני".
Genocidal Zionists were telling us that we had no place in our homeland, of which we unlike white racial supremacist Europe Zionist invaders were the native people since our ancestors practiced Palestinian Biblical Temple Judaism.
Rabbinic Judaism is an alien Mesopotamian religion that has no connection to Palestine.
A Jew or a Samaritan is completely welcome in Palestine if he loathes Zionism, the Zionist state, and Zionists.
One Samaritan is a heroic resistance fighter. See Nader Sadakah: The Quintessential Good Samaritan.
My husband is Jewish and did a rotation in Kamal Adwan Hospital. He is friends with Dr. Hussam Abu Safia, who is currently being tortured in Ofer Prison.
Jon, you aren't a lawyer and your husband isn't Jewish.
Livvy - try to control your hatred
I don't know anything about the veracity of LivvyLawyer's claims about her family, but there certainly are anti-Zionist Jews, including many who were part of the Gaza solidarity encampment at Columbia. Just as (say) Maxine Waters would consider Clarence Thomas to be not a real black, Bernstein would consider those people to be not real Jews. Ethnic identitarianism rules the academy, and Bernstein is firmly in its grip.
People who are terminally online think that there are large numbers of anti-Zionist Jews. But actual surveys show overwhelming support for Israel among Jews.
As for the ones at the encampment, I assume they're of Jewish ancestry, but virtually all of them are AsAJews™: people with no connection to organized Jewry whose Jewish identity is limited to self-identifying as such solely for the purpose of bolstering their criticisms of Israel.
What's your point? The Jews whose identity you question would certainly have been sent to death camps by Hitler, and would certainly be entitled to Israeli citizenship, and would certainly be urged by the Lubavitchers on the streets of NYC to join in a prayer. I'm sorry they're not Jewish enough for you.
Meanwhile, what are Clarence Thomas's credentials as a black man, other than genetics? He has a white wife and so far as I know, most of his friends are white. His views are not widely shared in the black community, which has been known to parody him as a lawn jockey. In short, not a real black man.
Notice how a Klansman talks about niggers when he wants to rouse people into lynching them. He gets people all riled up anout how horrible and genocidal the niggers are, how brutal and savage, how horrible and awful. Notice how he inflames people’s stereotypes. Notice how he takes the ordinary and usual consequences of ordinary war - people get killed, especially on the losing side - and tries to palm them off as some sort of horrific crime.
Jews under Moslem rule lived as third class citizens in Jim Crow-like conditions, forced to live in apartheid ghettos, forced to defer to Muslims passing in the street. Islamic law provides for sllavery. The Islamic State restored both - slavery for some, Jim Crow for others - when they had power in Iraq and Syria.
Hamas is as dedicated to restoring slavery and Jim Crow in Palestine as the Islamic State was in Mesopotamia, and as the Ku Klux Klan was in the United States. Hamas and this its shills are using the same propaganada tactics about Jews having self-rule and rights in Palestine, about their being allowed to bear arms and defend themselves, as the KKK did about African-Americans when the “settler-colonialist” (carpetbag, anyone?) Yankees let Negros have the same in the South.
There was exactly the same yelling and screaming and gnashing of teeth about genocide against the Southern people, destruction of, the Southern way of life, rape and murder and theft, destruction of families, amputations, as WiwwyWawer is now describing to you today.
The very idea that brutal savage pagan jungle monkeys who aren’t fit to be anything but slaves and servants could be allowed to have a government, possess guns, order white people around, gave the Klan the same heebie-jeebies, the same willies, thaat Wiwwywawywer is demonstrating before you that he has about Jews doing the SAME THINGS today.
All this talk is, after all, caused by these brutal savage Jews having the tarnation gall to up and defend themselves against a lynching, behaving exactly as African Americans would have loved to do if they only could have a century and a half ago.
And why, because he’s a racist peace of shit and wants a “free Palestine” that keeps Jews in their place exactly as things were in the good old days, just as the Southern Redeemers wanted a “free South” where things could be as close as possible to the way things were in the good old days before those settler-colonialist Yankees came in, armed the niggers got them all riled up with nonsense about their having rights, and started all the horrible and terribly, terribly unfair suffering Southerners experienced that the Klan has had so much to say about.
Martillo/Affleck, you're not fooling anyone by pretending to be your wife and fabricating her backstory too.
Seems quite unlikely that any of the Muslims in question here were alive in the 30s or 40s to have an opinion about German policies at the time. We certainly don't hold the current German government responsible for the Nazis; I'm not sure why you think it would be reasonable to hold some other current group to account purely based on what dead people with the same religion happened to think 90 years ago.
The fact that Jews lived as inferiors under Jim-Crow like conditions under Muslim rule is as relevant to interpreting claims of the aupposed brutality of Jews allowed to bear arms and participate in governemnt as the fact that African-Americans were subjected to slavery is to interpreting the many atrocity stories the Klan told about the Civil War ans Reconstruction when the poor, good, innocent Southerners were subjected to the horrors and savagery of occupation by armed Negro soldiers and the depravities of Negro-led government.
The stories are, frankly, remarkably similar in their tone.
Union occupying troops and Reconstructionist governments in the Civil war weren’t saints. Israelis aren’t saints either. But neither has behaved particularly worse than most armies engaged in war and conducting an occupation.
Here is Exhibit A of what we permit people to say in this country but would be pretty damned scary to have hundreds of people saying this to you while you were trying to go to class.
If someone is a probable perpetrator of a US federal capital crime as many if not most US Zionists are, he should probably fear that the law will catch up with him.
The US public (right and left) is turning against the State of Israel and US Zionists. Soon the US public will demand to know why the US DOJ is not enforcing black-letter US law.
There’s always Judge Lynch. If Judge Law won’t string the niggers up fast enough, Judge Lynch will.
Right, Klansman?
I don't really understand why any of the particular chants listed in the OP could be construed as "Hostile to Jewish students." I could understand how they would be hostile to Israeli Jewish students.
Both sides in these debates continually blur that distinction, protestors who take out their ire against Israel on American Jewish students, and defenders of Jewish students who see antisemitism in every criticism of Israel.
Sure. And the KKK was only talking about lazy blacks who rape white women, not about the good blacks.
Dude, he was agreeing with you: "protestors who take out their ire against Israel on American Jewish students."
Co-blogger Stephen Sachs discusses this in detail: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=532296
But I think there is a simpler basis: the primary group organizing the protests, SJP, supports Hamas and has loose ties to Hamas. Hamas is not just a designated terrorist organizations, but an overtly antisemitic one, and one that has sent agents to target Jews abroad occasionally, but is also allied with Hezbollah and Iran, both of which have been responsible for numerous plots to murder Jews abroad. Plus the rhetoric at these rallies has in fact led to dozens of attacks on Jewish students on campuses throughout the country. Context matters.
the menacing nature of the actions
The menacing nature of the actions! We must suppress protests of a menacing nature or the republic will be lost! And I, for one, find yarmulkes to be menacing and a symbol of genocide.
Snowflakes. It's not the protesters' fault every time you pee your pants a little.
Everybody knows if this were, for example, black students and faculty, as opposed to Jewish students and faculty, being tormented by racist mobs, this would be treated as a national crisis, and the courts (not to mention the media and certain politicians) would hardly adopt this blasé attitude.
not to mention the media and certain politicians
Yeah, they'd object to the content, which is what you're supposed to do to speech you disagree with. They wouldn't say it's illegal speech.
Counterfactual double standards are always so easy to prove.
"For whatever reason, I choose not to ask them to leave my property, nor do I call the police ... The protestors are still breaking the law.." Nope. Absent your trespassing them from your property, what law is being broken? Please provide support for your answer, professor.
Aside from very likely misrepresenting whatever law might be relevant (e.g., the law re: trespassing), the professor offered a very poor analogy. A much more accurate analogy would be government trying to penalize a homeowner because the homeowner didn't tell noisy, obnoxious people to get off his property.
“Impeding travel” is simply too vague a term, and communicates too little about what actually happened, to reach a conclusion.
Practically any protest regardless of subject will require people to go somewhat out of their way to go around it, and a large protest may result in a noticable inconvenience. As long as people are able to reach their destination and are not differentially singled out, a simple inconvenience applying to everyone from the ordinary logistics and natural consequences of a large protest, the mere physical presence of large numbers of people, would not strike me as causing any loss of First Amendment protection. After all, city streets are often closed for parades, festivals, permitted protests, etc. That obviously “impedes travel.” But does it really cause a loss of First Amendment protection?
And without specifics, “impeding travel” might mean as little as that, reflecting nothing more than lawyerly dramatics to describe fairly ordinary conduct in as bad a light as possible.
As I said above, if I am sitting in a lawn chair on I-95 should the police allow me to sit on the theory that streets are typically closed for parades? Is it different if I have a "Vote Gavin" sign? Is it different if I have 200 of my friends?
His argument is vagueness not incorrect in all cases.
Are you really a lawyer?
wvattorney13 — I think you might have a valid argument that interstates built exclusively as motorways, and customarily excluding pedestrians, are historically different than urban streets. As I mentioned above, major intersections of urban streets, understood in historical context, epitomize the public square. Arguably, peaceable assemblies in those locations are uses more constitutionally protected than any others.
Let me gove an example. Protestees are filling a street and a city is putting up a detour route rather than arresting them. A group that dislikes what the protesters are sayinf argues that because the constitution permits cities to arrest people, protests that block streets aren’t protected by the First Amendment at all. Because the protest “impedes travel,” they caan sue them if they find the content of what they say offensive.
It doesn’t work that way. The first amendment has intermediate (time place and manner) application rather than no application at all. Laws acainst blocking traffic and such have to be content-neutral. And these plaintiff’s primary complaint isn’t about being inconvenienced by having to take a detour. It’s about being offended by the content of the speech. The gravaman of their case is about as content-based as it gets.
The standard test applies - if this were a group a KKK members camping out on Kresge, would MIT allow them to intimidate and harrass black students?
If not (and I'm willing to be money that no federally-supported US university would tolerate that behavior), then there is clear discrimination.
In that situation, the left would pretend that this situation and this thread never happened and force you to spend minutes pointing out what they said in this context.
Then they would distinguish it by nitpicking it to death. They would point out something that the KKK did that this group did not do and declare that this minor point makes all the difference.
The reason that could never happen is that the counterprotest would dwarf the KKK protest.
The reason the Jewish kids are having such a problem here is that they're snowflakes. They're unwilling to stand up for themselves, no one else is willing to stand with team genocide, and yet they're thin-skinned enough to run to mommy and daddy and try to make a federal case out of it, literally.
That combination of factors could never happen with any other protest. So stop already with your pointless counterfactual double standards (ht Sarcastr0). It makes you look like an apologist for fascism.
On cue.
By your warped logic, it is ok to attack any group that is too small to fight back. Who needs laws anyway ... we have the rule of might.
Counterfactual double standards again. They feel right; they prove nothing.
Counterfactual double standards are the bread and butter of how law is reasoned.
The Trump administration, deploying its various masked police forces and military detachments, has been trying to force demonstrators in urban areas to remain in areas cordoned off from streets and other public locations. I think it is time for demonstrators to test judicially the ancient custom that streets in towns and cities are in fact part, parcel, and epitome of the public square, and thus always protected for peaceable assemblies.
When the founders decreed a right to peaceable assembly, they did not intend, "peaceable," to mean, either, "without inconvenience," or, "without political influence."
On the contrary, the right of peaceable assembly was intended as a right to at least attempt politically efficacious assemblies. Understood that way, courts ought to be able to conclude there is no legitimate power in government to attempt to limit with force the political effects of peaceable demonstrations in the public square—specifically meaning in the streets of towns and cities. Historically, the public squares were not the town commons, they were the major intersections of roadways.
The right way to begin would be to flood with protestors the streets of cities where militarized federal intrusions are underway. Keep at it, with an announced purpose to force the feds out. Stay peaceful. Take to court as contrary to the right of assembly any forcible attempts to cordon the demonstrations, or otherwise restrict where on public areas they happen.
To do that would be to create a near-perfect analogy to the historical conduct which gave rise to the right of assembly during the founding era. Courts ought to be reminded of that, with historical evidence to prove it.
And then clear the streets with snow plows.
This case highlights the tricky balance between free speech and campus safety. While protestors may claim First Amendment protection, actions that disrupt others, create fear, or break rules can’t be ignored. It’s similar to debates in gaming communities, where creativity and expression are encouraged, but rules must still be followed—examples of this can be seen on https://mineacraftapk.com/.