The Volokh Conspiracy
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Lying Lawyers
An alarming compendium of DOJ misrepresentations and falsehoods
There was a rather fascinating panel discussion at the Society for the Rule of Law summit this past week. [see a summary here ] Three retired federal judges -- Paul Grimm (ex-D MD), Nancy Gertner (ex- D MA), and Michael Luttig (ex- CA4), moderated by Benjamin Wittes of Lawfare -- spoke for an hour about what Judge Luttig called "the most important moment in all of American history . . . when the nation needs the federal judiciary more than it has ever needed it, and will ever need it again."
Judge Luttig[1] described the crisis this way:
Every day of the week, for the past 10 months, [district court] judges are facing the President of the United States and Attorney General of the United States… lying to their face. Lying to the judges. The prosecutors are lying to the federal courts. Meanwhile, outside the courtroom, the President of the United States, and the Attorney General of the United States, are trashing the federal courts. Trashing the individual judges. Calling them every name in the book. Never in American history has this ever happened.
The arguments that are being made… by the Department of Justice attorneys under Pam Bondi are contemptuous. Not just of the Constitution and the rule of law, but contemptuous of the federal courts, and even, if not especially, contemptuous of the individual judges that are hearing the cases. Not only has this never happened in all of American history, not one argument, but the arguments that these people are making to the federal courts has ever been made in American history, dripping with the contempt that these arguments are.
Judge Gertner put it this way:
It's not just an issue of the arguments they're making. They're lying. They are misrepresenting things. One of the things I thought after Trump was elected, and when the political debate made it into the courts, one of the things we know about courts is that there's a level of civility. That the lawyers, true to their oaths, will not lie, will not misrepresent, will not say they do x and do y. What is the most shocking of all — at a time when you're always shocked — is that that's not true. That's not true with respect to the Department of Justice lawyers. They will say x, they will do y, and recent whistleblower accounts suggest that they are openly and brazenly misrepresenting to the court. The system fractures what it happens.
If you think they're exaggerating - "Trump Derangement Syndrome!!" - here is the study Judge Gertner cited, from the Michigan Law School's "Just Security" project, detailing 43 cases where federal court judges have called out the DOJ for having made serious misrepresentations - including a substantial number of outright, bald-faced lies - to the courts.
I know . . . what else is new? "Dog bites man." No point getting worked up about it, since it's only #6, or #17, on the ranked list of threats to constitutional norms and the constitutional order. But even if it's only for the future historian compiling a history of the Trump Era, it is worth noting.
And on a considerably more optimistic note, the panelists expressed a number of interesting thoughts on what they all agreed has been a "spectacular" performance by federal district court judges of all political stripes in the face of this onslaught. A ray of hope in this dismal prospect. They also discussed at length the question of whether or not the Supreme Court has given the lower courts adequate support for their efforts - a subject I'll leave for a future post.
[i] Judge Luttig was appointed to the 4th Circuit by George HW Bush in 1991, and I think it is fair to say that he is as rock-ribbed a Republican – in the old, honorable sense – as they come, and also that he is boiling with rage at the Administration's many-fronted attack on the rule of law.
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It's a good thing “We do not have Obama judges or Trump judges, Bush judges or Clinton judges. What we have is an extraordinary group of dedicated judges doing their level best to do equal right to those appearing before them.” Otherwise, we might not have that "independent" judiciary...we should all be thankful for.” Or maybe someone should have asked Roberts how he defined "independent"? Maybe we should ask some sitting federal judges during their impeachment hearings? (and could we still impeach the above retired hacks? Democrats have a history of that so why not?)
See, everyone, this is why it's clear Riva is a bot account. An entirely preprogrammed comment that does not engage with the content to which it is ostensibly replying in any way, and instead just auto-generates some MAGA rant about judges because the word "judge" appeared in the post.
See, everyone, this is why it’s clear that crazy Dave is not only an asshole, but a particularly stupid asshole. The article exposes the gross partisan bias of federal judges. I simply make a facetious comment on that subject.
And why this sick stupid asshole is obsessed with me is another question but I certainly don’t seem to be all that liked but many sick TDS deranged trolls here. But that is a good thing, unlike politically biased judges
Wow! A libertarian post--libertarians believe in rule of law and government accountability--on the Volokh Conspiracy!
I imagine some cultist will call him a Marxist or some other nonsensical thing.
No, not Libertarian. Trump Derangement.
This is a big circle jerk of TDS. Anyone who cites Mike Luttig, the Lawrence Tribe of the federal judiciary, as an impartial or even conservative commentator risks instant discreditation. And looking at the Michigan Law School study just shows another recitation of the complaints of the usual suspect Biden and Obama judges and mainly DC circuit and liberal coastal districts who've been in the vanguard of partisan lawfare.
“TDS” — the cultists are incredibly predictable.
TDS is as TDS does. And says based on some retired federal judges.
TDS is a non-partisan self-infliction.
Luttig is not a Republican. He endorsed Kamala Harris in the last election. He has been anti-Republican for a long time. He is not an honorable man either. He was partially responsible for the scandals at Boeing.
Harris was the more conservative choice in the last election.
So you say, but a "rock-ribbed a Republican" would not have voted for her or publicly endorsed her.
One who has seen the GOP taken over by fascists would. Trump's anger over an ad quoting Reagan demonstrates how divorced today's GOP is from their recent past.
Projection this egregious should be a crime.
You should start saying no to drugs David.
Given a choice between an honest politician with some undesirable policy positions and a con man and a scoundrel here to destroy the constitution, tear this country and use this country’s resources for his own personal benefit, a patriot has a duty to choose the honest politician.
Judge Luttig is a great patriot and a great friend of this country. Unlike the boss you toady to, he’s not a Gordon Gecko greed-is-good takeover guy here to break it apart and sell the pieces for his personal benefit.
The title is redundant.
"Every day of the week, for the past 10 months, [district court] judges are facing the President of the United States and Attorney General of the United States… lying to their face. Lying to the judges. The prosecutors are lying to the federal courts. Meanwhile, outside the courtroom, the President of the United States, and the Attorney General of the United States, are trashing the federal courts. Trashing the individual judges. Calling them every name in the book. Never in American history has this ever happened.
BULLSHYTE!!!
Has Donald Trump said "John Marshal has made his decision, now let's see him enforce it"? Or was that Andrew Jackson? Was Justice Brown Jackson impeached for saying stupid stuff -- or was that Sameul Chase?
Starting with Waco, we have had 30 years of Dems behaving badly and now that the Republicans are playing by the same rules and only now is it a problem???
Ed, Nobody will be offended if you write bullshit.
In fact, all Ed does is write bullshit.
(Yes, I know what you meant, but you teed that one up.) Note that he has no qualms about writing out the n-word and other slurs.
How is the only quote you know about judges somehow relevant to this discussion about lying to judges?
I must admit, whataboutWaco is a new one, though.
What does the honorable judge have to say about Biden openly defying the court?
What does such hardcore whattaboutism say about your logical thinking skills?
Probably a complaint about whataboutism.
Such complaints are almost always confessions of indefensible hypocrisy.
Whattaboutism is deflection. A charge of hypocrisy doesn't come dressed as an attack on the argument.
Additionally, Biden didn't openly defy the court, and even if he did, that's not the issue in the OP.
Thirdly, Incunabulum by his use of 'the' didn't bother to read the OP.
Way to do a bad job defending a pretty terrible post!
Andrew Jackson never said that. It was a quote concocted by Horace Greeley 20 years after Jackson had died.
It has been a long time since Luttig was a conservative. He endorsed Ketanji Brown Jackson's nomination to the Supreme Court.
How does that prove he isn't a conservative?
Too bad the Constitution doesn't explicitly state: "shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour". Then the gross, self-serving, lie told by lawyers anointed judges: "Life Tenure", would be easier to expose.
Separately, what was the historic rationale for the order of the Constitution's first three Articles. ? ...
Seems the Framers should have been led by the reality that after God realized that monarchies and theocracies were no longer effective forms of political organization, He could have at least made sure His Anointed were discussed in Article. I., and included the words "judicial supremacy", "absolute immunity", and "infallible policymakers and law givers".
1. popular sovereignty (Preamble)
2. legislative supremacy (Article 1)
3. executive energy (Article 2)
4. judicial protection for the citizen (Article 3)
5. substantive protections for the citizen (Bill of Rights)
I don't even understand what you're trying to say here. What distinction are you trying to draw? Are you claiming that since dead judges can't behave badly, their tenure should extend beyond life?
Difficult for me to entertain political complaints from judges until some judges are removed from the bench for cause.
This is an aberation, to be sure, but does it even show up in a list of large-scale historical problems?
Judges are no prophylaxis against bad overreach. They approved Japanese internment. They largely nullified the 14th Amendment for the better part of a century. They granted censorship, arguing you can't complain about the war because it stepped on Congress' plenary power to raise armies (and how Oliver Wendell Holmes changed his mind, currently on Radiolab!)
A few years from now, the same folks now on the ropes will be back to their too clever-by-half rationalizations, with associated judicial failings OKing all if it. The left's version of Make America Great Again.
Like...
○ Innumerable initiatives to investigate, arrest, charge, jail their political opponent, not because of concern for rule of law, but because he irritates, because he opposes. That's how the game is played. So many, surely some will stick.
○ Hyperbolating charges up to felonies that would otherwise be paperwork to be handled by accountants, because that might trigger further rationalizations for removal from office or banning from a ballot.
○ Seeking blue test states with compliant locals to try to ban from the ballot, in search of a holy grail of one or two slightly purple states to follow suit, and the math showed only one or two is sufficient to decide the election as a whole, something I pointed out, and then got paraphrased by one of the liberal SC judges, who even found that strategy problematic. This pushed by lovers of democracy, defenders of democracy.
○ The Constitution forbids the King from expropriating the estates of irritating Lords. So get various lawsuits totalling about half a billion dollars. Bingo! We've seized a huge chunk of his estate like tyrants of olde, rationalizers have a latte!
○ Lawyer-client privilege is sacred! Every cop TV show for 70 years says so! So what? We have a political opponent to nail. Cya, standards. Launch all facetious rationalizers!
The past 8 years, no one cared about honesty in front of judges, or judges preventing lying for nefarious ends not in accordance with the spirit, and sometimes the law, of the Constitution. Just facetious claims as cover stories to sic government on an opponent.
He's bad. I lightly recommended Kamala over him in spite of it rewarding motivated liars who were a disaster for America with deliberately-induced inflation. Yet this was less bad than letting tanks roll through Europe. Of course, we got more inflation anyway, ah well. We shall see, unfortunately. Not that "the oher side" can claim superiority on the issue.
David Post's brazen shamelessness is on full display!
"Not only has this never happened in all of American history"
In living memory. Old courtroom arguments aren't like modern baseball where we have detailed stats going back over a century and archived footage going back several decades.
The left loves Republicans who act exactly like Democrats.
You got no problem with the idea of the DoJ lying to the tribunal?
Reality and truth do not matter anymore. All that matters is Trump.
No actual example of DoJ lawyers lying to the court, or the administration going against the Constitution, as interpreted by Scotus. No substantive criticism. Just TDS.
There are actually a bunch of examples listed of DoJ lawyers lying to the courts.
Oh, c'mon.
Facts? We don't need no stinkin' facts.
I would clarify one thing: the linked sources in post discuss two prongs of the issue: not just lying to judges, but also defying them.
More precisely, there are examples of district court judges ruling against the Trump administration, with some loose language attacking the DoJ. But most of these cases have not held up on appeal, and are really examples of TDS judges.
Written by Thomas Jefferson, July 4, 1776, about the abuses of England's King George III:
"For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world.” “He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us.” “He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our Legislatures.” “He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people.” “Obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither.”
Note that we've had predictable replies from all the MAGA sources: ranging from the mindless "TDS" ad hominem to the whatabouts to the mildly more substantive "Luttig isn't conservative enough for me" ad hominem. But none of them have actually addressed the substance of the topic about administration lawyers lying to courts.
All they have is 'I don't believe it.'
Truth is just a measure of how aligned with their faction the speaker is.
If I wasn't seeing it, I wouldn't believe humans could fuck up their cognition this hard.
"administration lawyers lying to courts."
Perhaps David could list the names of admin lawyers held in contempt for doing so?
Perhaps David could list the names of admin lawyers facing criminal perjury charges for doing so?
Perhaps David could list the names of admin lawyers facing state bar sanctions for doing so?
NB: Didn't both Bill and Hillary Clinton face bar sanctions for lying?
The listed examples do not actually include administration lawyers lying. Just judges unhappy with the DoJ for various reasons.
That would be impossible, because perjury is a lie under oath and lawyers making representations to the court are not under oath.
That would be impossible, because bar proceedings are secret until the end.
No. This has been yet another episode of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
Huh? Bill Clinton was suspended from practice in Arkansas (where he was admitted) for five years for his false statements under oath in the Lewinsky case. As a result, he was forced (under threat of disbarment) to resign from the Supreme Court bar.
"NB: Didn't both Bill and Hillary Clinton face bar sanctions for lying?"
Bill Clinton was held in civil contempt for lying during his discovery deposition in the Paula Hound Dog lawsuit. Jones v. Clinton, 36 F.Supp.2d 1118 (E.D. Ark. 1999).
As part of an agreement negotiated with Independent Counsel Robert Ray (Kenneth Starr's successor), Bill Clinton voluntarily surrendered his Arkansas law license for a five year period of suspension. He subsequently resigned for the bar of the Supreme Court of the United States. In return, the Independent Counsel agreed not to prosecute him after leaving office as President.
I am unaware of Hillary Clinton having been disciplined for lying.
I am well aware of all of that. But the question was, "Didn't both Bill and Hillary Clinton face bar sanctions for lying?" And the answer to that is, "No."
Hahaha. Richard Posner, in "An Affair of State," gives a brief analysis (I'm sure there are longer ones) of the legal consequences of that sort of equivocation when under oath. People have been convicted on such facts, though some have escaped.
"I am well aware of all of that. But the question was, "Didn't both Bill and Hillary Clinton face bar sanctions for lying?" And the answer to that is, "No."
Right. Connectors matter.
WRONG AGAIN DAVID.
Bill Clinton was sanctioned by the Arkansas Bar Association and suspended from practicing law because he gave knowingly evasive and misleading testimony, (LYING), about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky during the Paula Jones sexual harassment lawsuit.
In 1998, Clinton testified under oath in the Paula Jones case, denying a sexual relationship with White House intern Monica Lewinsky. Federal Judge Susan Webber Wright later ruled that he had given false and misleading testimony and held him in civil contempt of court, ordering him to pay over $90,000 in sanctions.
You are correct that Hillary Clinton was not sanctioned for lying about sending classified emails through her private server. She was also not sanctioned for lying about deleting only personal emails. She was also not sanctioned for lying about landing in Bosnia under sniper fire. Nor was she sanctioned for lying about the Benghazi attacks being motivated by a YouTube video.
As far as I know, none of Hillary's questionable statements occurred in a judicial proceeding or under oath, so she could not have been professionally sanctioned for any of them.
I know that. Did everyone here fail logic? A ⋏ B is false if either A is false or B is false. Since Hillary did not face bar discipline for lying, then the answer to Dr. Ed's question is no.
I think most regular folks would involuntarily double over and guffaw at the idea that lawyers as a whole "will not lie, will not misrepresent, will not say they do x and do y."
Seriously, though, and as routinely evidenced by prolific commenters in this very forum, lawyers are exceptionally adept at carefully finessing their statements so as to convey a completely different meaning than actual reality, and it's a rare brief indeed that doesn't accuse the other side of having misrepresented -- sometimes badly -- the facts, law, or both.
In my view, these well-understood flexible standards really take the wind out of the sails of this sort of selective outrage exercise. Indeed, flexible standards aren't even required, since to my eye the linked study makes no effort to study pre-Trump time frames or make any other effort to establish a baseline.
From the data provided, you could just as readily conclude that this generally small and generally partisan slice of judges have just decided to cast aside their more typical sense of decorum and inclination to give lawyers the benefit of the doubt because of their rabid dislike for the administration and its policy choices.
You're not engaging with the statements at all.
In fact, you didn't say anything of substance.
'Well based on generally how lawyers do lawyering and judges' modern judging trendifications, plus flexibility of things and stuff, this could be whatever it's all lies I think even though I've clearly not read any of the assertions.'
Come on, man. Read the cited material and engage with it. If you don't want to do that, you can just not post. This longwinded empty rationalization is just terrible.
Says the dude who, as exemplified here, rarely even pretends to say anything of substance.
Says the dude who, rather than reading and engaging with the broader point of my post, opted to caricature and deflect it.
I'm sure it'll blow your mind that I actually did flip through a number of the supposedly egregious examples before writing what I did.
And if I had actually gone back in time and pulled up comparable examples, I'd just get "whatabout whatbout." Don't pretend otherwise.
Man, apparently day 26 is a particularly challenging one for the self-proclaimed posting police. Hope you're able to have a better rest of your day.
My caricature was a specific critique of your post - that it was purely airy generalizations based on nothing but your own vibes.
It engaged with what you wrote.
By contrast, you've failed to speak about any of the examples linked in the OP.
I'm sure it'll blow your mind that I actually did flip through a number of the supposedly egregious examples before writing what I did.
Yeah, I didn't spend a lot of time weaving a tale of what you did before you wrote the post. If you read the examples, then show your work.
if I had actually gone back in time and pulled up comparable examples
Which would be a legit critique, because comparable examples don't negate the examples!
Your follow-up post here doesn't really dispel the notion that you are driven to say the OP is wrong, but not driven enough to do actual work establishing that.
You're just putting your head down and plowing forward.
My points were structural in nature, and are independent of the specific and super-totally-level-headed characterizations of the judges in the examples.
You desperately want to get lost in the weeds because you know my structural points are correct and irrefutable: 1) lawyers push the envelope of candor in front of tribunals--and get called out for it--on a routine basis, and 2) the cited study didn't look at anything outside the Trump administration and therefore is of no help at all in supporting the argument that this administration is objectively less honest than others.
Sorry this makes you so mad.
From the data provided, you could just as readily conclude that this generally small and generally partisan slice of judges have just decided to cast aside their more typical sense of decorum and inclination to give lawyers the benefit of the doubt because of their rabid dislike for the administration and its policy choices.
Before concluding that, wouldn't it make sense to understand the basis of the judges' complaints, and decide whether they are justified?
Instead, you offer the generalization that this is typical behavior for lawyers and no big deal. Your evidence is just comments on this blog.
Then you complain about the quality of the study.
If you yourself looked at them at all, a good number of them are the same hot-button cases (Garcia, the CECOT flights, Venezuelan TPS, etc.) we've debated around here as they've come up. So no, it doesn't really seem particularly useful to retread that sort of in-the-eye-of-the-beholder bickering. And as I said to Sarc when he kept trying to goad me into arguing specifics, that's a distraction from what I think is the more meaningful question: whether this is really any worse than usual, or is just being presented that way because everything is a pearl-clutching crisis these days.
At no point did I say it's no big deal, and I doubt you actually disagree that lawyers routinely play exquisite and often aggressive word games to color facts in their favor. What I did say, again, is that neither the article nor the "study" offer any objective way to understand whether the this administration is markedly worse than any other.
I don't know that quality is even on the table here. This is just an arbitrary collection of opinions of judges tongue-lashing lawyers, cabined to the time frame of the current administration. My issue is that people are citing the simple existence of this list as evidence of some sort of alarming crisis, when the very structure of the exercise doesn't give the information necessary to draw that conclusion.
a good number of them are the same hot-button cases (Garcia, the CECOT flights, Venezuelan TPS, etc.) we've debated around here as they've come up.
Yes. But the merits of the cases are not what the discussion is about. Rather, it is about the behavior of the DOJ lawyers. Two lawyers misbehaving in separate proceedings dealing with the same general issue is still two cases of misconduct.
A baseline would be helpful, of course, but can't we draw some conclusions from the fact that three retired federal judges, who served for a total of almost 40 years, are expressing the opinion that this sort of behavior is virtually unprecedented in their experience.
I think to dismiss this as "TDS," which seems to be the main complaint of the other critics, along with questioning Luttig's conservative bona fides, is nothing but cultishness.
it doesn't really seem particularly useful to retread that sort of in-the-eye-of-the-beholder bickering
Facts are not opinions. There is no eye-of-the-beholder, there is correct and there is wrong.
In the end, word games are not lying to the tribunal. The linked study isn't faffing around with disingenuous - it's talking about when judges are seeing lies that break the duty of candor.
You're dodging the distinction between facts and opinion, and thus candor and lies.
And then you make a different argument - that maybe the baseline is just this high naturally. Which is a new front to argue on, and for which you provide no support.
It's two pretty different theses - that truth isn't the issue, and that this administration isn't extraordinary and, say, Biden had the same challenges.
You're not doing much to push either of them towards the finish line, just waiving the theses about like that's all you need to do.
Wow, you sure did pick an opportune time to discover the colors black and white! What a bunch of chin-stroking, sanctimonious baloney.
"Seriously, though, and as routinely evidenced by prolific commenters in this very forum, lawyers are exceptionally adept at carefully finessing their statements so as to convey a completely different meaning than actual reality, and it's a rare brief indeed that doesn't accuse the other side of having misrepresented -- sometimes badly -- the facts, law, or both."
A lawyer is expected to present facts and the inferences drawn therefrom in the light most favorable to his client. That is proper advocacy, and it can involve emphasizing favorable facts and downplaying unfavorable facts.
Intentionally making a false statement of fact or law, OTOH, is serious misconduct and grounds for professional discipline -- most especially when made to a court of other tribunal. Rule 3.3 of the ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct (on which most states' attorney disciplinary rules are based) provides:
Doubts as to what the lawyer "knows to be false" are to be resolved in favor of the client. Take, for example, offering alibi testimony of questionable veracity in a criminal case. If the accused's wife testifies, "My husband was at home with me" at the relevant time, and the lawyer has not confirmed the truth or falsity of that statement, he can offer that testimony, even if it is contradicted by other evidence. If, however, the accused's wife testifies "My husband and I were having lunch with the lawyer who is representing him," and the lawyer in fact was not present as the witness describes, he would have a duty to call upon the witness to correct the false testimony, and if she refuses to do so, to disclose to the court that the lawyer in fact was not present as the witness testified.
Some states exempt a failure to correct testimony given by the lawyer's own client which the lawyer knows to be false, but it is unprofessional conduct to advance or make further use of that testimony (such as by referring to it in argument).
Rule 4.1 imposes an obligation of truthfulness in statements to pthers upon a lawyer:
In a criminal prosecution, a conviction obtained through use of false evidence, known to be such by representatives of the government, violates constitutional Due Process guaranties. "The same result obtains when the State, although not soliciting false evidence, allows it to go uncorrected when it appears." Napue v. Illinois, 360 U.S. 264, 269 (1959).
Hyperbole is usually a sign of a bad argument.
The past-tense allegation is bad enough, but to claim it true for eternity? Sorry, go back and try again if you want the rest of it to be taken seriously.
Perhaps explain how the court rolled over for FDR in amending the Constitution by reinterpretation. Or Lincoln's habeas corpus shenanigans. Or, yes, Andrew Jackson, and please, explain your excuse, don't just sneer at Dr Ed, that's no better than what Trump does.
Tu quoque 'cause you've got nothing.
If even half of what is being alleged about the FBI is actually true -- and remember that much of it has come from FBI whistleblowers who actually believe in the "integrity" part -- the Federal judiciary has been woefully negligent in not doing their jobs.
And then there was Lois Learner and the IRS and where were these Knights of the Law on that? Or the Green New Steal?
1) How can we "remember" something you've made up?
2) What do allegations about the FBI have to do with this discussion?3) Your other whatabouts make even less sense. (Also, it's Lois Lerner. Why are you so utterly incompetent at getting anything right?)
Where's your something? Oh, right, as usual, you got nothing but silly phrases you got from a pack of bubblegum.
You don't strike me as too dumb to understand why whatever FDR did is not relevant to whether or not something is happening right now.
But this blog has proven quite the object lesson in how people can be motivated to swear by failed arguments, so maybe you're situationally that dumb.
"when the nation needs the federal judiciary more than it has ever needed it, and will ever need it again."
What scares me about that line is if you already are at 11, how do you go louder if Trump started doing things that truly needed screaming about?
It's not true now, and we also have satellites, but during WWII, all the transatlantic cables went from Canada to Ireland and thus were under British wartime control -- and used by the British for propaganda, e.g. Germans bayoneting British babies -- and learned to be false after the war.
24 years later, that was remembered (much as we remember Sept 11th) and hence Americans didn't believe the initial reports of the Holocaust. FDR likely knew, its clear that the NYT knew, but most Americans didn't and dismissed the reports as more British wartime propaganda.
That's the very dangerous game the Never Trumpers are playing -- what if Trump, say, had a stroke and went off the deep end, doing truly horrific things -- like, say, what Argentina did (dumping political enemies into the ocean from airplanes to be eaten by sharks). If you believe all his people are mindless drones (they aren't) who would quietly go along with this (they WOULDN'T!), and you are already screaming "wolf" on a daily basis, who would ever listen to you?
1) It was WWI, not WWII.
2) It's (sort of) true that the first transatlantic cables were between Canada and Ireland. (Sort of, because actually it was Newfoundland to Ireland, and Newfoundland wasn't part of Canada at the time.) By WWI, however, there wee direct cables between the US and continental Europe.
3) As there were not a whole lot of German soldiers in England, the propaganda was about Germans bayonetting Belgian babies, not British ones.
Other than that, great comment!
He's murdering random people in the Caribbean right now for politics. Before he was sending innocent people to foreign torture gulags. What sort of threshold does it take for you to admit that he's doing truly horrific things?
Don't worry, Ed WOULDN'T go along with Trump dumping people out of helicopters and we know this because when Ed hears it from the White House itself that they're dumping bodies, he might actually believe it (but only then) and he WOULDN'T go along by writing something sorrowful here, but he'd still vote for Republicans because in his head voting for Democrats is simply pure evil and never to be done under any circumstance. In short he WOULDN'T go along but he also WOULDN'T do anything effective to stop it.
I sneered at Dr. Ed because (a) the quote is apocryphal; (b) the quote, even if real, has nothing to do with lying to judges; and (c) the quote, even if real, doesn't say what Dr. Ed thinks it said. (It was not about Jackson defying the court.)
Lying to judges is more malfeasance than disobeying judges?
The apocryphal charge has not been proven either, can't be proven or disproven 200 years later, and your quibble is why lawyers earned their reputation.
Um, that there's no evidence he said it is exactly what makes it apocryphal.
Lying to judges and defying judges are equally malfeasant. But the Jackson quote was neither about lying to judges nor about defying judges.
The quote was made up by Horace Greeley long after Jackson's death. More lying by the main stream media.
Given that the district courts have been overturned approximately 50 percent of the time - what do the good and honorable judges have to say about the conduct of their peers?
It means those district court opinions turned out to be wrong, at least according to the higher courts.
Given that you made up the statistic, what does it say about you? Also, reversing a lower court ruling doesn't say anything about the "conduct" of the lower court. There are many reasons for a reversal, almost none of which involve wrongdoing.
Pitchers in baseball have "earned run averages."
What is considered to be a "good" reversal rate for a Federal District Judge? Has anyone ever calculated this as a statistic?
No. Nor — even setting aside categorization and data collection problems — would it make any sense to do so. A lower court judge can be reversed because (a) he misunderstood binding precedent, or (b) because the appellate court disagreed with him on a matter of first impression. The former is a mark against him; the latter is not, so lumping those together would obscure more than it would reveal.
This is about facts.
Trying to open a can of works about the law is a deflection. Law doesn't matter to the issue of some pretty broad evidence the DoJ is lying to the tribunal. And that this is new.
How do you purport to know this, Mr. "you didn't say anything of substance"?
Because I read the linked study.
The presumption of regularity hasn't been broadly challenged before.
Unless you want ot argue there's been a ton of DoJ lying previously which judges covered up, it's not really up to debate that this is new.
But they explicitly say they're NOT challenging it: "The documented cases below are not intended to indicate when we think courts should apply the presumption."
They're just making arbitrary lists of inflammatory situations, which they fully admit are arbitrary: "Well before the Trump administration, the metes and bounds of the presumption were unsettled, and its pedigree was ripe for being questioned."
This is a straw man based on the very absence of intellectual curiosity I've been discussing all day. To my knowledge, groups of activist law school students haven't mined prior cases to find judges calling out lawyers for candor issues. If you're aware of any, please do share.
It's good that the lower courts are making an effort to maintain the rule of law, but it all comes to naught when it reaches the Dread Justice Roberts.
Or Roberts is trying to maintain the rule of law, while rogue district judges go TDS.
TDS TDS TDS TDS. That's all you got, Roger.
Plonk.
Chief Justice Roberts and five of his fellow black robed wardheelers care nothing about the Rule of Law. Trump v. United States, 603 U.S. 593 (2024), a decision cut from whole judicial cloth, shows Roberts to be Donald Trump's handmaid.
These statements and links are circular without substance, just more of the same as reported by MSNBC in past years. Simple declarative opinions, thus refuting can't be done, because there's nothing presented.
This is your today's legal system, live with it. Suck it up.
Cato is not very reliable these days, such as the bait and switch Right-Wing violence is greater and goes on to list murders only from 1975 on, thus bypassing those of the 60's, and not reporting the bulk of non-lethal violent actions and disruptions and property damages. Do that Cato and get back to me. However, it's pointless to rehash what's been done.
And so, to state aliens have full standing and full rights in the USA is lying itself. Their rights are limited and dependent on any documentation given when they entered. For those without documentation, tough luck, you're out of here, case closed.
"You're only considering the last 50 years" is a pretty sad attempt at accusing someone of cherrypicking.
That is, of course, wrong.
It's almost like some explained the "presumption of regularity" to Trump and he thought "Oh, great! That gives us a license to lie to the courts and they have to accept anything we say as the truth."
I saw yesterday that the 5th Ford-class super carrier will be named the USS William J. Clinton thanks to action taken by the Navy Department in January 2025. A thank you from Biden on the way out the door. I guess every ex-president will get a carrier named after them. Probably not W. That would be too confusing. I wish they would stop this nonsense and go back to naming carriers after famous battles, stinging insects, or other classic warship names.
Correction. According to Wikipedia, they are naming one after W. This has got to stop.
There is zero chance Trump will get a carrier, or even a rowboat named after him. It would be as absurd as a USS Benedict Arnold or USS Robert Hanssen.
I'll trade you. No carrier for Trump as long as W and Clinton don't have carriers named after them.
Fine by me. I don't think carriers should be named after presidents at all. Triple that sentiment for living presidents.
Or HMS Cromwell. Churchill but the kabosh on that.
That is obviously untrue, as there's a decent chance that Trump himself simply orders a ship to be named after himself.
He would have to rename the Kennedy. Only one coming due in his term.
Whatcwould Trump have in common with Benedict Arnold or Robert Hansen?
Does the DOJ's reputation and credibility matter? Federal prosecutors/US attorneys were once a very select and highly trained body of lawyers who JUST BECAUSE THEIR TITLE carried respect and a bit of prestige.
Now you have career DOJ attorneys being forced out for being perceived as not sufficiently loyal politically. For following their own DOJ guidelines. Others have voluntarily left because the ethical situation these issues present made them uncomfortable. The DOJ is supposed to be somewhat independent. But Habba and Halligan and Pirro...Blanche and Bove (when he was there) and Bondi have made it a total clown show.
To answer my first question: yes, of course reputation matters. A district judge faced with a credibility assessment between two competing sets of facts has to choose. The district judge has to rule after all. If they suspect the declarations submitted by the govt are misleading or false and the DOJ attorney doesn't correct the record and goes on to double or triple down on it...guess who loses?
That's why habitual lying is typically a self-correcting problem. If you lie habitually, people stop believing you, and your lies become random noise. If that happens to the Justice Department generally, it will be funny (I mean, because the misfortunes of others are funny), but harmless.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/material-factual-error-9th-circuit-reverses-victory-for-trump-admin-in-national-guard-case-after-discovery-shows-feds-lied-about-troop-numbers-in-oregon/
Consequences are something the Trump administration doesn't seem to appreciate. A normal ethical person would see lying hurts them and change their behavior. An unethical hack would attack the Courts/judges. Guess what path this DOJ/administration continually pursues? The 9th circuit just stayed themselves due to lying. Over in the 7th cir; the district court judge granted IL's request and during the hearing said the DOJ was lying and because of that, she had to rule against them.
More and more - the DOJ's reputation is going straight into the toilet. And its not happening in one place or one district. It's happening nationwide. Good luck recruiting new qualified talent when you need to replace those you fired or who left voluntarily when your reputation is absolute dog shit.
Why are these judges sitting on their tucheses kvetching like helpless bubbameissers? Why aren’t they using their power and taking action? Why don’t they suspend government attornies they catch lying to them from practicing before the federal courts? Why do they just sit there and put up with shit like this? Why do they act is if they had no power to stop it?
If the first time this happened, they found the the lawyer involved in contempt and suspended them from working on a federal case for a year, the second time for 2 years, etc., attornies who still did this would be suspended from practice for life by now.
Sure, if they found them in criminal contempt the President could simply pardon them. But they could find them in civil contempt.
Sure, it’s never been done before. But as Judge Luttig said, we’re facing a new situation.
Most likely because the lawyers aren't, in fact lying. The study documents claims by judges, claiming to not believe the lawyers. Not the same thing. It is entirely possible that the judges are engaging in political rhetoric, not judging, which they are prohibited from doing. There is NO study proving government lawyers have, in fact, lied. Because they have not done so. These statements by judges are improper and unethical, as they address matters not before them in a case and exhibit bias against a party, the government. Doing so is best explained by TDS.
Er, no.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/material-factual-error-9th-circuit-reverses-victory-for-trump-admin-in-national-guard-case-after-discovery-shows-feds-lied-about-troop-numbers-in-oregon/
like helpless bubbameissers
I think the phrase you are looking for is "bubbe mansehs," which translates almost directly as "old wives' tales," and has little to do with the point of your comment, which, BTW, I don't disagree with.
Unfortunately, the legal profession looks after its own.
Here you go: https://jel.jewish-languages.org/words/1430?ref=josephnoelwalker.com
Fish rots from the head. Or in this case, heads.
Shut up, bitch.