The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Lying Lawyers
An alarming compendium of DOJ misrepresentations and falsehoods
[Update 10-26: Apologies to the good folks at NYU Law School for mistakenly attributing JustSecurity.com to the Law School at Michigan (where they run a different compendium of legal actions against the Administration at the Civil Rights Clearinghouse.]
[There was a rather fascinating panel discussion at the Society for the Rule of Law summit this past week. [see a summary here ] Three retired federal judges -- Paul Grimm (ex-D MD), Nancy Gertner (ex- D MA), and Michael Luttig (ex- CA4), moderated by Benjamin Wittes of Lawfare -- spoke for an hour about what Judge Luttig called "the most important moment in all of American history . . . when the nation needs the federal judiciary more than it has ever needed it, and will ever need it again."
Judge Luttig[1] described the crisis this way:
Every day of the week, for the past 10 months, [district court] judges are facing the President of the United States and Attorney General of the United States… lying to their face. Lying to the judges. The prosecutors are lying to the federal courts. Meanwhile, outside the courtroom, the President of the United States, and the Attorney General of the United States, are trashing the federal courts. Trashing the individual judges. Calling them every name in the book. Never in American history has this ever happened.
The arguments that are being made… by the Department of Justice attorneys under Pam Bondi are contemptuous. Not just of the Constitution and the rule of law, but contemptuous of the federal courts, and even, if not especially, contemptuous of the individual judges that are hearing the cases. Not only has this never happened in all of American history, not one argument, but the arguments that these people are making to the federal courts has ever been made in American history, dripping with the contempt that these arguments are.
Judge Gertner put it this way:
It's not just an issue of the arguments they're making. They're lying. They are misrepresenting things. One of the things I thought after Trump was elected, and when the political debate made it into the courts, one of the things we know about courts is that there's a level of civility. That the lawyers, true to their oaths, will not lie, will not misrepresent, will not say they do x and do y. What is the most shocking of all — at a time when you're always shocked — is that that's not true. That's not true with respect to the Department of Justice lawyers. They will say x, they will do y, and recent whistleblower accounts suggest that they are openly and brazenly misrepresenting to the court. The system fractures what it happens.
If you think they're exaggerating - "Trump Derangement Syndrome!!" - here is the study Judge Gertner cited, from the Michigan NYU Law School's "Just Security" project, detailing 43 cases where federal court judges have called out the DOJ for having made serious misrepresentations - including a substantial number of outright, bald-faced lies - to the courts.
I know . . . what else is new? "Dog bites man." No point getting worked up about it, since it's only #6, or #17, on the ranked list of threats to constitutional norms and the constitutional order. But even if it's only for the future historian compiling a history of the Trump Era, it is worth noting.
And on a considerably more optimistic note, the panelists expressed a number of interesting thoughts on what they all agreed has been a "spectacular" performance by federal district court judges of all political stripes in the face of this onslaught. A ray of hope in this dismal prospect. They also discussed at length the question of whether or not the Supreme Court has given the lower courts adequate support for their efforts - a subject I'll leave for a future post.
[i] Judge Luttig was appointed to the 4th Circuit by George HW Bush in 1991, and I think it is fair to say that he is as rock-ribbed a Republican – in the old, honorable sense – as they come, and also that he is boiling with rage at the Administration's many-fronted attack on the rule of law.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please to post comments
It's a good thing “We do not have Obama judges or Trump judges, Bush judges or Clinton judges. What we have is an extraordinary group of dedicated judges doing their level best to do equal right to those appearing before them.” Otherwise, we might not have that "independent" judiciary...we should all be thankful for.” Or maybe someone should have asked Roberts how he defined "independent"? Maybe we should ask some sitting federal judges during their impeachment hearings? (and could we still impeach the above retired hacks? Democrats have a history of that so why not?)
See, everyone, this is why it's clear Riva is a bot account. An entirely preprogrammed comment that does not engage with the content to which it is ostensibly replying in any way, and instead just auto-generates some MAGA rant about judges because the word "judge" appeared in the post.
See, everyone, this is why it’s clear that crazy Dave is not only an asshole, but a particularly stupid asshole. The article exposes the gross partisan bias of federal judges. I simply make a facetious comment on that subject.
And why this sick stupid asshole is obsessed with me is another question but I certainly don’t seem to be all that liked but many sick TDS deranged trolls here. But that is a good thing, unlike politically biased judges
Riva, why not do as David suggested--engage the content. This truly is a crucial time to look beyond partisan labels and sentiments. For more than one reason, Judge Luttig might not have been wrong about this being "the" (or at least a) "most important moment in all of American history."
For extremely good reason, the people who wrote and ratified our Constitution established that the first, foremost and constant duty of every legislator and "all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of [all] States" (including the president, as well as all lawyers admitted to practice before any federal or state court) is "to support this Constitution," and they established that our Constitution was the paramount law in "the supreme Law of the Land." But far too many of all the foregoing have forgotten (or routinely ignore) the duty imposed by their oaths.
The problem of DOJ lawyers (and federal judges) lying and knowingly violating federal law and our Constitution is far from new. DOJ lawyers have been lying to judges--and federal judges have been lying, including to help DOJ lawyers violate federal law--for many years. The problem is not limited to lawyers or judges who hide behind the label "Democrat" or "Republican." Americans should not allow themselves to be fooled into defending or opposing such misconduct based on such mere labels.
We should consider the merits of each case and the governing law. One argument for doing so was alluded to by Judge Luttig, himself, implying that at least some (perhaps most or many) federal judges consider themselves, personally, more important than even our Constitution):
"The arguments that are being made… by the Department of Justice attorneys [ ] are contemptuous. Not just of the Constitution and the rule of law, but contemptuous of the federal courts, and even, if not especially, contemptuous of the individual judges that are hearing the cases."
I'm very sorry to say that too many federal judges (both so-called Democrats and Republicans), personally, deserve to be held in contempt because they consider themselves more important than even our Constitution. Many DOJ lawyers know that federal judges have done so.
Too many federal judges pretend or presume to be priests in a state-established religion of the sort that is expressly prohibited by the First Amendment. They pretend that their word is the law and that their falsehoods are facts. Too many federal judges pretend or presume to have the power to deprive people of life, liberty or property by (knowingly) denying them the process of law that the judges know is due. The truth is that too many such judges have taught or encouraged DOJ attorneys to lie about the law or about facts material to cases.
Americans should address both sides of that problem (lying lawyers and lying judges). We should enact legislation that facilitates impeachment, trial and removal of judges who lie about the law or the facts of a case or knowingly violate controlling legal authority. Such legislation (governing the trial of judges) should require application of procedures that govern the trials of every other American by those who consider themselves our judges.
Don’t feel alone here. David very often starts his responses to my comments with “Liar”. This ad hominem attack is invariably a dead giveaway that he has nothing to contest what I just said.
Wow! A libertarian post--libertarians believe in rule of law and government accountability--on the Volokh Conspiracy!
I imagine some cultist will call him a Marxist or some other nonsensical thing.
No, not Libertarian. Trump Derangement.
This is a big circle jerk of TDS. Anyone who cites Mike Luttig, the Lawrence Tribe of the federal judiciary, as an impartial or even conservative commentator risks instant discreditation. And looking at the Michigan Law School study just shows another recitation of the complaints of the usual suspect Biden and Obama judges and mainly DC circuit and liberal coastal districts who've been in the vanguard of partisan lawfare.
“TDS” — the cultists are incredibly predictable.
TDS is as TDS does. And says based on some retired federal judges.
TDS is a non-partisan self-infliction.
Luttig is not a Republican. He endorsed Kamala Harris in the last election. He has been anti-Republican for a long time. He is not an honorable man either. He was partially responsible for the scandals at Boeing.
Harris was the more conservative choice in the last election.
So you say, but a "rock-ribbed a Republican" would not have voted for her or publicly endorsed her.
One who has seen the GOP taken over by fascists would. Trump's anger over an ad quoting Reagan demonstrates how divorced today's GOP is from their recent past.
Projection this egregious should be a crime.
Riva, what words would you use in writing the statute criminalizing such criticism of people in power? Why would you want (and why would you think we should want) to give anyone in power the power to imprison people for such criticism?
Roger, what do you consider a "rock-ribbed" Republican? Is it rock-ribbed devotion to a mere so-call party or rock-ribbed devotion to actual principles? If it's the latter, I know many Republicans who would disagree with you. Many "rock-ribbed" Republicans see Trump as the ultimate RINO. Many "rock-ribbed" Republicans see Trump and those who support Trump or are using Trump as a great threat to our Constitution.
Anyone who sincerely and objectively contrasts our Constitution with the conduct of Trump and those who support Trump or are using Trump would see the same. At the very least, look at how Trump is trying to drag the U.S. into a war that Trump proclaimed on March 14 (against Venezuela) without any declaration of war or any other authorization by Congress. Only a fool suffering from the most severe Trump Derangement Syndrome would think that Americans would be fighting Venezuela, alone.
You should start saying no to drugs David.
Given a choice between an honest politician with some undesirable policy positions and a con man and a scoundrel here to destroy the constitution, tear this country and use this country’s resources for his own personal benefit, a patriot has a duty to choose the honest politician.
That is a whole lot of TDS projection and reality inversion. Who was it using the US government to line his pockets for decades and selling US policy to foreign powers? Right, your guy.
Now tell us about this honest politician you claim to have found playing poker with Santa and the tooth fairy.
Someone who doesn’t have the terrible case of TDS you have knows that saying something is so doesn’t make it so.
Your whole approach to talking about politics, including your hit jobs on your political enemies, has become remarkably like the sort of fact-free but virulent propaganda that George Orwell described the Nazi and Communist parties churning out in the 1930s and 1940s.
Judge Luttig is a great patriot and a great friend of this country. Unlike the boss you toady to, he’s not a Gordon Gecko greed-is-good takeover guy here to break it apart and sell the pieces for his personal benefit.
The title is redundant.
"Every day of the week, for the past 10 months, [district court] judges are facing the President of the United States and Attorney General of the United States… lying to their face. Lying to the judges. The prosecutors are lying to the federal courts. Meanwhile, outside the courtroom, the President of the United States, and the Attorney General of the United States, are trashing the federal courts. Trashing the individual judges. Calling them every name in the book. Never in American history has this ever happened.
BULLSHYTE!!!
Has Donald Trump said "John Marshal has made his decision, now let's see him enforce it"? Or was that Andrew Jackson? Was Justice Brown Jackson impeached for saying stupid stuff -- or was that Sameul Chase?
Starting with Waco, we have had 30 years of Dems behaving badly and now that the Republicans are playing by the same rules and only now is it a problem???
Ed, Nobody will be offended if you write bullshit.
In fact, all Ed does is write bullshit.
(Yes, I know what you meant, but you teed that one up.) Note that he has no qualms about writing out the n-word and other slurs.
How is the only quote you know about judges somehow relevant to this discussion about lying to judges?
I must admit, whataboutWaco is a new one, though.
What does the honorable judge have to say about Biden openly defying the court?
What does such hardcore whattaboutism say about your logical thinking skills?
Probably a complaint about whataboutism.
Such complaints are almost always confessions of indefensible hypocrisy.
Whattaboutism is deflection. A charge of hypocrisy doesn't come dressed as an attack on the argument.
Additionally, Biden didn't openly defy the court, and even if he did, that's not the issue in the OP.
Thirdly, Incunabulum by his use of 'the' didn't bother to read the OP.
Way to do a bad job defending a pretty terrible post!
Andrew Jackson never said that. It was a quote concocted by Horace Greeley 20 years after Jackson had died.
It has been a long time since Luttig was a conservative. He endorsed Ketanji Brown Jackson's nomination to the Supreme Court.
How does that prove he isn't a conservative?
Too bad the Constitution doesn't explicitly state: "shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour". Then the gross, self-serving, lie told by lawyers anointed judges: "Life Tenure", would be easier to expose.
Separately, what was the historic rationale for the order of the Constitution's first three Articles. ? ...
Seems the Framers should have been led by the reality that after God realized that monarchies and theocracies were no longer effective forms of political organization, He could have at least made sure His Anointed were discussed in Article. I., and included the words "judicial supremacy", "absolute immunity", and "infallible policymakers and law givers".
1. popular sovereignty (Preamble)
2. legislative supremacy (Article 1)
3. executive energy (Article 2)
4. judicial protection for the citizen (Article 3)
5. substantive protections for the citizen (Bill of Rights)
y81, that's good! But not good enough. The sovereignty of the people was established by much more than the Preamble, and the legal consequences of popular sovereignty powerfully limit the powers that the people merely delegated to our public servants in Articles I, II and III.
The Preamble and Article VI (and the oaths in Articles VI and II) emphasized that the People are the supreme legislative authority in the U.S. "We the People" did "ordain and establish [our] Constitution" (and constitute the three departments of national government) to "establish Justice" and "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves." In doing so, the People established that the "supreme Law of the Land" governs all conduct of all public servants. The "supreme Law of the Land" is our "Constitution, and [federal] Laws" that were "made in Pursuance" of our Constitution "and all Treaties." Laws must not only be made, but also implemented and enforced, in pursuance of our Constitution. That's the point of the principle that all state and federal legislators and "all executive and judicial Officers" are not only bound by our Constitution, but also are "bound" to "support [our] Constitution" in all official conduct. Such support is the vital principle behind every oath of every public servant. It is behind the president's oath in Article II emphasizing that the president's first, foremost and constant duty is to "preserve, protect and defend [our] Constitution" to "the best of [his] Ability."
The words of every article in the Constitution further emphasized the sovereignty and supremacy of the people over our public servants. In Article I, the sovereign people emphasized that nobody in federal government could exercise any power that was not “necessary and proper for carrying into Execution” the “Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States” (for the purposes stated in the Preamble). In Section 1 of Articles I, II and III, the sovereign people “vested in” (delegated only) limited powers to public servants in “Congress,” in and under the office of the “President,” and on the “one supreme Court” and “inferior Courts” that “Congress” was delegated the power to “ordain and establish.”
The Ninth and Tenth Amendments were instructions to judges about how to construe our Constitution to implement our sovereignty. The Ninth plainly stated a rule of construction (it did not state a reservation of rights). It implied that all “rights” (enumerated or not) were “retained by the people.”
The Tenth Amendment summarized our entire Constitution. It emphasized that state and federal governments had only powers, not rights. Only limited “powers” were “delegated to the United States by the Constitution,” some “powers” were “prohibited by [our Constitution] to the States,” and all “powers” that were not “delegated” by “the people” to public servants in federal or state government were “reserved” to “the people” (Amendment X).
The most insightful opinions of SCOTUS justices regarding the overarching meaning of our Constitution might well have been written by SCOTUS justices who personally and profoundly helped lead the process of getting our Constitution written and ratified.
John Marshall helped get the original Constitution ratified at the Virginia ratifying convention. Later, Chief Justice Marshall emphasized (in McCulloch v. Maryland) that our Constitution must be understood as "a constitution" of a nation (the creation of a nation by means of a written Constitution, not by brute conquest). Marshall emphasized "we must never forget that it is a constitution we are expounding." He meant constitution as an action, not as a mere document. Then, he explained how the People constituted our nation:
“The government of the Union [is] emphatically, and truly, a government of the people. In form and in substance it emanates from them. Its powers are granted by them, and are to be exercised directly on them, and [exclusively] for their benefit.”
James Wilson helped get the original Constitution written in Pennsylvania and then ratified at the Pennsylvania ratifying convention. He was perhaps most responsible for the overall design and artistry (the prose as well as the poetry) of our Constitution. As one of the first SCOTUS justices, Wilson explained that the writers and ratifiers (merely) implied a crucial concept in our Constitution--a concept that was the most profound and fundamental (and should have been most influential).
From the first three words ("We the People") to the last three words of the Bill of Rights ("to the people") the Preamble and every article and amendment emphasized and established the political sovereignty of the people over our public servants and the personal sovereignty of people over their "property" (as Locke and Madison meant that term).
In Chisholm v. Georgia, 2 U.S. 419 (1793), Justice Wilson (one of the most enlightened and influential of the Framers of our Constitution) expressly revealed that the most important concept in our Constitution is only implicit in its text and structure: “the term SOVEREIGN” was not used anywhere in our “Constitution.” More importantly, the Preamble is the “one place where it could have been used with propriety.” Those “who ordained and established” our “Constitution” could “have announced themselves ‘SOVEREIGN’ people of the United States: But serenely conscious of the fact, they avoided the ostentatious declaration.”
In Chisholm, Justice Wilson emphasized the structure of power in our Constitution. It is obvious and striking—but for hundreds of years it almost always has been ignored or downplayed by SCOTUS justices (and presidents) and their supporters.
The first and foremost separation of powers in our Constitution is between the sovereign people and all public servants. Justice Wilson in Chisholm emphasized that in our Constitution “ ‘The PEOPLE of the United States’ are the first personages introduced” (by the Preamble).
Much more of the structure emphasizes the significance of the sequence in which personages were introduced. Even the structure of Articles I, II and III emphasize the sovereignty and supremacy of the people. Our Constitution introduced, first, the People, second, our directly-elected representatives (Congress), third, our indirectly-elected representative (the president), and, last, our unelected representatives (judges).
If SCOTUS justices (and presidents) returned to reading our Constitution as the written creation of a nation instead of a mere collection of clauses, we might finally get a government that operates as designed by the People (to "establish Justice" and "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity").
I don't even understand what you're trying to say here. What distinction are you trying to draw? Are you claiming that since dead judges can't behave badly, their tenure should extend beyond life?
David, Sisu was highlighting how judges (and lawyers) commonly lie (or unthinkingly repeat a lie) when they contend that our Constitution granted federal judges life tenure or lifetime employment. Clearly, our Constitution expressly permitted removing any federal judge from office for behavior that was not good.
The principle at issue was so crucial to our Constitution that it was highlighted repeatedly by people who wrote our Constitution and caused it to be ratified. This was an important principle that was invoked repeatedly to explain why the people should ratify the Constitution. For example, the importance of "good behavior" was emphasized repeatedly in The Federalist Papers (in at least Nos. 9, 39, 70, 78 and 79).
Ours is “a republic, where every magistrate ought to be personally responsible for his behavior in office.” Federalist No. 70 (Alexander Hamilton). Having “courts composed of judges holding their offices” only “during good behavior” is a “powerful means” for ensuring “the excellences of republican government may be retained and its imperfections lessened or avoided.” Federalist No. 9 (Hamilton). “The tenure by which the judges are to hold their places, is, as it unquestionably ought to be, that of good behavior.” Federalist No. 39 (James Madison). Only federal “judges” who “behave properly, will be secured in their places for life.” Federalist No. 79 (Hamilton).
“[T]here can be no room to doubt that” the failure to establish “GOOD BEHAVIOR as the tenure” of “judicial offices” “would have been inexcusably defective.” Federalist No. 78 (Hamilton). Absolutely “all judges” appointed to federal courts “are to hold their offices” only “DURING GOOD BEHAVIOR.” Id. “The standard of good behavior for the continuance in office of the judicial magistracy, is certainly one of the most valuable of the modern improvements in the practice of government.” Id. It was included in the Constitution to be an “excellent barrier to the encroachments and oppressions of [every] representative [authority, including judges]. And it is the best expedient which can be devised in any government, to secure a steady, upright, and impartial administration of the laws.” Id.
At this point I don't know if you're a bit or a bot. Do you think that when people say that judges have life tenure they're claiming impeachment+removal isn't an option? Do you also object to people who say "A president serves for four years" because these people don't add, "…unless he's impeached+removed first"?
David, it is objectively and blatantly false to contend categorically that our Constitution gave any judge "life tenure." It simply did not do so. It is clearly untrue (by any relevant standard) that "during good behaviour" means "for life." Having a mere heartbeat and breathing cannot honestly be believed to be "good behaviour."
At least some judges and lawyers actually lie when they contend categorically that our Constitution gave judges "life tenure." That lie is not asserted in a vacuum. That lie about our Constitution serves a particular anti-constitutional purpose: it helps prop up the pretense that nearly nothing can be done to hold federal judges accountable for abusing their positions by behaving very badly. Too many federal judges too often behave badly by knowingly violating federal law and our Constitution or lying about controlling legal authorities or material facts.
The lie that our Constitution gave every federal judge "life tenure" impedes actual thinking that would support our Constitution by providing for federal judges to be impeached, tried and removed from office according to process of law that is similar to the process of law by which judges adjudicate the credibility and lawfulness or criminality of the conduct of all other Americans.
David, it's well worth thinking about the reason for the lie. Why do judges and lawyers assert the lie that federal judges have "life tenure"? They could just as easily tell the truth. They could just as easily repeat the actual text of our Constitution: federal judges may hold office during good behavior. Why is it so hard for many judges and lawyers to tell that simple truth and reiterate that simple text? One reason is that many judges behave very badly.
It's also well worth thinking about the substantive meaning of saying that a person with a particular title and political powers can exercise such powers for life. Historically, two types of people have been so empowered: nobility and clergy. Yet, our Constitution in Article I promptly and prominently outlawed any state or federal "title of Nobility." Our Constitution also was very promptly and prominently amended with the First Amendment to outlaw any "law respecting an establishment of religion."
It's also well worth thinking about how judges have made themselves to look like priests and how they have made lawyers, litigants and citizens see judges very much like priests. Federal judges wearing black robes parade into a part of buildings that often were made to resemble churches or temples. They sit at a structure made to resemble an alter. They do all the foregoing while another government employee orders everyone present to stand. Too often, they merely pretend that what they do is say what the law is. Too often, they pretend that their word (nor our Constitution or federal law) is the law.
Judges (who swore to support our Constitution in every official action) lie about our Constitution by asserting the lie that federal judges have "life tenure." They use and abuse that lie to undermine our Constitution in the minds of Americans about the meaning of our Constitution and the means it gave Americans to hold judges accountable for behaving badly.
It's well worth thinking what's wrong with you. There is no "reason for the lie," because it isn't a lie. Judges do have life tenure. Their terms do not expire. That's what life tenure means. Yes, they are subject to impeachment and removal. Which everyone knows, and is not necessary to repeat. Nobody is hiding that.
David, try to prove that our Constitution granted federal judges "life tenure." I've shown the text, structure, purpose and history of our Constitution proving that judges were not given anything like absolute life tenure.
Here, you've merely lied again: "Their terms do not expire. That's what life tenure means." Why do you insist on asserting that falsehood instead of telling the truth? Why do you insist on ignoring the text of our Constitution? It says simply that federal judges may hold office during good behavior. Why do you find it hard to tell that simple truth and reiterate that simple text?
The truth is that judges (and lawyers) abuse the lie about "life tenure" to support the pretense that federal judges cannot be held accountable for bad behavior. They are not merely saying that judges' "terms do not expire."
Chief Justice Roberts provided a compelling example in Williams-Yulee v. Fla. Bar in 2015. He failed to quote the relevant text of Article III (but he did acknowledge that "Our Founders [ ] entrusted [federal] judges to hold their offices during good behavior."). Then, he misrepresented the meaning of "during good behavior." He directly misrepresented that "Hamilton believed" in "appointing judges to positions with life tenure," and he cited The Federalist No. 78.
The truth is that Article III and Hamilton repeatedly emphasized "good behavior," not "life," as defining the term of office of federal judges. Hamilton did so in Federalist No. 78, and again in Federalist No. 79, when he directly emphasized the text and a strikingly different view of the purpose of the text of Article III: only federal “judges” who “behave properly, will be secured in their places for life.”
Chief Justice Roberts then correctly identified the issue: “a desire to make judges more accountable to the public." Opposing judicial accountability for bad behavior is exactly the point of judges and lawyers who lie about judges having "life tenure."
You're just repeating the same untethered-from-reality-or-the-English-language premise over again.
David, you're lying again. Everything I wrote was tethered to the plain text and the plain meaning of our Constitution (and plain English, for that matter). Try to prove (with the text, structure, history or purpose of our Constitution or even with any dictionary) that "during good behaviour" meant "for life." You cannot because it did not.
David, two other discussions among SCOTUS justices highlighted how judges abuse the lie about federal judges having tenure for "life" to further misrepresent that federal judges are “not accountable to the people.”
Just search for the words "life" and "accountable" in South Bay United Pentecostal Church v. Newsom, 140 S. Ct. 1613 (2020) (Roberts, C.J., concurring) and S. Bay United Pentecostal Church v. Newsom, 141 S. Ct. 716 (2021) (Roberts, C.J., concurring) (Kagan, Breyer and Sotomayor, dissenting).
In the first concurring opinion, Chief Justice Roberts emphasized his view of federal judges: merely because they are “unelected,” they are "not accountable to the people."
In the second concurring opinion, Chief Justice Roberts reiterated his view of federal "judges being shielded" (from accountability) "by life tenure."
In the last opinion, the dissenters emphasized Chief Justice Roberts' representation that federal judges are "unelected," so they are “not accountable to the people.” They followed that by their own misrepresentation that "[o]ur marble halls are now closed to the public," so "our life tenure forever insulates us from responsibility for our errors."
Our Constitution did not give federal judges "life tenure" or ensure that they are not "accountable to the people." Our Constitution requires federal judges to be independent of everything except the legal authority and facts that our Constitution requires or permits them to consider. Article III expressly provided for federal judges to be removed for behavior that is not "good Behaviour." Article II even requires federal judges to be held accountable for particular bad behavior (they "shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of" any "high Crimes" or high "Misdemeanors," including "Treason" or "Bribery."
Can they be voted out? No. That's what "accountable to the people" refers to. Why are you pretending not to understand that?
David, you're lying again. As you know, accountability clearly does not depend on electability, alone. Why are you pretending not to understand that? Judges (or lawyers) who misrepresent that federal judges are not accountable to the people merely because they are not elected by the people are not supporting our Constitution. They are undermining it.
Judges can be held accountable in multiple ways. One way that the people can hold judges accountable is by exercising our First Amendment rights and freedoms. Chief Justice Roberts pointedly highlighted that principle in his 2024 Year End Report (https://www.supremecourt.gov/publicinfo/year-end/2024year-endreport.pdf):
"Chief Justice Taft is the only person to have served as head of the judicial and a political branch. As he put it, 'Nothing tends more to render judges careful in their decisions and anxiously solicitous to do exact justice than the consciousness that every act of theirs is to be subject to the intelligent scrutiny of their fellow men, and to their candid criticism.' ”
Chief Justice Roberts was quoting W. H. Taft, Remarks at the Annual Meeting of the American Bar Association, American Law Register and Review 43(9) 577 (1895) (https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5392&context=penn_law_review).
Taft's remarks were delivered to, essentially, the entire American Bar Association. At that time, Taft was a U.S. Sixth Circuit judge. Later he became President and then Chief Justice. Much more of Judge Taft's remarks are well worth considering and quoting, including the following.
“The judge [sometimes] has a power over which no review can be exercised,” so he often “is amenable only at the bar of public opinion” and “it is unwise to [contend] that public opinion [of a judge] with such power shall neither be expressed nor led.”
"The opportunity freely and publicly to criticize judicial action is of vastly more importance to the body politic than the immunity of courts and judges from [even] unjust aspersions and attack. Nothing tends more to render judges careful in their decisions and anxiously solicitous to do exact justice than the consciousness that every act of theirs is to be subject to the intelligent scrutiny and candid criticism of their fellow-men.… [Regarding] judges having a life tenure, . . . the right freely to comment on their decisions [is] of greater importance, because it [may be] the only practicable and available instrument in the hands of a free people to keep such judges alive to the reasonable demands of those they serve…. [Clearly,] those most competent to express their judgment in such matters [are attorneys] belonging to the great and honorable profession of the bar."
Thinking that you're a dumbass is not "lying."
As you apparently don't know, when other people say "accountable to the public" they mean "subject to election."
Setting aside that the phrase wasn't "accountability" in the abstract, but "accountable to the people," criticizing someone is not holding that person accountable, and Taft's quote does not use that word at all so it adds nothing to the discussion.
David, another way that judges (state or federal) can be held accountable to the people is by executive officials enforcing laws enacted by legislators to protect the people from criminal abuses or usurpations of power. For example, it is a federal offense for any purported public servant to act “under” mere “color of any” legal authority or purported “custom” (including any judicial custom) to “willfully” deprive "any person" of "any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution” or federal “laws” (18 U.S.C. § 242) or to “conspire” with anyone to “injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person” in "the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to” him “by the Constitution” or federal “laws” or because such person “exercised” such “right or privilege” (18 U.S.C. § 241).
DOJ attorneys and SCOTUS justices repeatedly highlighted a previous SCOTUS decision emphasizing that a judge can be prosecuted for committing the foregoing crimes by means of purported official conduct.
On April 8, 2024, SCOTUS in Trump v. United States docketed a brief by attorneys for the U.S. Department of Justice supporting the D.C. Circuit decision in Trump. The DOJ emphasized the relevance of Ex parte Virginia, 100 U.S. 339 (1880).
Even SCOTUS—in a unanimous decision—also invoked Ex parte Virginia, 100 U.S. 339 (1880) in Trump v. Anderson, 601 U.S. 100 (2024). In 2023, SCOTUS also invoked Ex parte Virginia in Health & Hosp. Corp. v. Talevski, 599 U.S. 166 (2023). Justice Thomas, personally, also invoked it twice in 2023, in a concurring opinion in Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. President & Fellows of Harv. Coll., 600 U.S. 181 (2023) and in a dissenting opinion in Reed v. Goertz, 598 U.S. 230 (2023).
The recent SCOTUS uses of Ex parte Virginia were started in 2021 when the dissenting opinion in Whole Woman's Health v. Jackson, 595 U.S. 30 (2021) emphasized that “courts were being used to harass and injure individuals, either because [they] were powerless to stop deprivations [of rights] or were in league with those who were bent upon abrogation of federally protected rights,” so the “very purpose” of some federal statutes was “to protect the people from unconstitutional [official] action under” so-called “color” of “law,” regardless of “whether that action” was “executive, legislative, or judicial.” The dissent quoted, in part, Ex parte Virginia, 100 U. S. 339 (1880).
David, insisting that words mean something that they clearly don't mean does not prove your point or enhance your credibility. It just provides more evidence of a paucity of integrity. It proves that you lack the integrity to tell the truth or to support our Constitution consistent with your own oaths.
The words "during good behaviour" simply and clearly never under our Constitution meant "for life." The words "accountable to the people" under our Constitution never have meant merely "required to stand for election." You cannot prove your point by merely speculating (and potentially misrepresenting) that "they" mean what you wrote.
We're talking about the meaning of our Constitution. It's patently absurd (and dishonest) to pretend that federal judges cannot be held accountable to the people merely because the people don't elect such judges.
Yes, they did and do.
The words "accountable to the people" are not found in the constitution at all.
David, according to Merriam-Webster, "accountable" means "subject to giving an account : answerable." So judges necessarily are among the public servants who are most accountable to the people. As judges, themselves, have proclaimed many times, the duty of judges is to give an account of themselves in an opinion justify their judgments.
As Chief Justice Marshall and SCOTUS in Marbury v. Madison in 1803 (and many subsequent justices) emphasized, 'It is emphatically" the "duty of the judicial department to say what the [existing] law [actually] is. [Judges must] apply [a] rule to particular cases [so they] must of necessity expound and interpret that rule."
The reasons for such rule are crucial. As Chief Justice Marshall and SCOTUS subsequently emphasized, each “Judge” is “required to declare the law” because if he “states it erroneously, his opinion” must “be revised; and if it can have had any influence on the” judgment, it must “be set aside.” Etting v. U.S. Bank, 24 U.S. (11 Wheat.) 59, 75 (1826) (Marshall, C.J.).
As many current SCOTUS justices emphasized in Bank Markazi v. Peterson, 578 U.S. 212 (2016), “Article III of the Constitution establishe[d]” a “Judiciary” that must be “independent” of all except the law, so the judiciary was assigned the constitutional “duty to say what the [governing] law is” in “particular cases and controversies;” judges “who apply [a] rule to particular cases, must of necessity expound and interpret that rule.”
David, how did you think you supported your position (or helped yourself in any way) by observing that "[t]he words 'accountable to the people' are not found in the constitution at all"?
As I highlighted for you, multiple SCOTUS justices (including Chief Justice Roberts) repeatedly emphasized that many public servants are "accountable to the people." They necessarily meant under our Constitution. Even you (clearly erroneously) argued that "accountable to the people" means only that public servants "can be voted out." Clearly, voting is addressed many times in our Constitution.
You are appealing to the constitution — "The words 'accountable to the people' under our Constitution never have meant merely 'required to stand for election.'" — for the meaning of words not actually found in the constitution.
Sure — but not judges. Roberts expressly said the opposite about judges.
David, you try to hard to be ignorant of or willfully blind to the obvious. You're right but your point is irrelevant as purported support for your position. You said that Chief Justice Roberts said that judges were not "accountable to the people." I didn't need you to say that because I already told you that. That's why I said he lied (and you are lying).
As I explained, judges are accountable to the people in multiple respects (and you and Roberts know they are). As I showed you, SCOTUS has long held (and federal law (federal rules of procedure) has long required) that judges (at least generally) must account to the people for their judgments in written opinions justifying their judgments. As I showed, judges can be prosecuted for criminal violations of rights. As I explained repeatedly below, judicial violations of law can be (and commonly are) appealed by people to higher courts. Judicial misconduct also can be reported to regulatory authorities (and maybe disciplined). As I showed, judges also can be publicly criticized for their conduct. The people also can urge members of Congress to impeach, convict and remove judges. It's an obvious lie (by you and Chief Justice Roberts) to say that federal judges are not at all accountable to the people merely because federal judges don't stand for election.
You do not seem to grasp that not accepting your idiosyncratic (n.b. that's a euphemism for batshit crazy) definitions of words does not constitute "lying."
The Constitution explicitly limits impeachment and removal to “high crimes and misdemeanors,” which do NOT include judicial rulings you or the administration disagree with. Your completely ignoring this language and hoping nobody notices speaks volumes about the weakness of your position.
In a written constitution, text has a nasty of getting in the way of the high-sounding principles one invokes to get ones way.
The Framers disagreed about many things. And as they were mostly people who tended to speak and write a lot, framer quotes can be found supporting multiple sides on many issues.
When what your favorite framer says flatly contradicts the text, that’s a pretty good sign your favorite framer didn’t get his way on the point.
And that’s exactly what happened here. People who wanted judges to be removable only for crimes as opposed to mere amorphous “bad behavior” won out in the final draft over people who didn’t. The fact you can quote some people who wanted a different outcome doesn’t mean it made the constitution we have.
ReaderY, I appreciate your concerns. Even so, I didn't merely quote some random Framers who happened to say something favorable. I quoted two of the people (Hamilton and Madison) who were the foremost leaders in having the Constitution written and ratified (including in their key home states of New York (Hamilton) and Virginia (Madison)).
I quoted them because they publicly explained to people how to understand our Constitution immediately after it was written and published and while people throughout the nation were deciding whether to ratify it. Their explanations were heavily scrutinized (vetted) throughout the nation. I quoted them also because SCOTUS justices very often have quoted them for a crucial purpose: to understand what the people who wrote and ratified our original Constitution and the first 10 amendments meant to accomplish with the words they wrote or ratified.
I also clearly didn't ignore that Article II explicitly limits impeachment and removal to “high crimes and misdemeanors.” I said the same. But I also didn't (as you did) ignore the most relevant parts of our Constitution.
Importantly, Article II also states the term of office of the president and vice president: the "President" may "hold his Office during the Term of four Years." Impeachment clearly isn't (and cannot logically or legally be) required to enforce any term of office specified in Article II.
Article III includes an analogous provision that is very different from the standard pertaining to impeachment. And it is a fundamental rule of construction of our Constitution that no provision or word may be assumed to be superfluous.
Article III (like Articles I and II) expressly and specifically governs terms of office: "The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour." Impeachment isn't (and cannot logically or legally be) required to enforce any term of office specified in either Article II or Article III. If "during good behaviour" meant "until impeached, convicted and removed," then that's what Article III would have said, would it not? There is no basis in law to assume that "during good behaviour" meant ONLY "until impeached, convicted and removed for high crimes and misdemeanors."
The people who wrote and ratified our Constitution thought and spoke a lot about good behavior, and they thought that any purported public servant who abused his position could be removed for behavior that was not good. The most obvious, most essential test of whether behavior by a public servant was good was stated in Article VI: every legislator and "all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of [all] States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution." Any purported public servant who violates his or her oath of office clearly and irrefutably is guilty of behavior that is not good, regardless of whether such misconduct has been identified by Congress as a high crime or misdemeanor. Wouldn't you agree?
No, it would not. Nobody has to use Jack Jordan's personal definition of words to make a particular point. Even if your usages were correct, that does not mean that your usages are the only possible way to say something.
David, your childish rejoinders only make you look childish. Try reading and thinking about our Constitution and its history. Obviously, the words I quoted aren't my words. Those are the words that were chosen very carefully by the people who wrote and ratified our original Constitution.
I also didn't decide how to read and think about our Constitution. SCOTUS has long emphasized how we must read it and how we must think about the decisions of those who wrote and ratified our Constitution to use the same or similar words or very different words in various places in our Constitution. You really need to read and think more and talk less.
David, correction: your childish rejoinders also highlight your nearly complete ignorance of remarkably much of our Constitution's text, structure, purpose and history.
ReaderY, to understand the text of our Constitution, we must put the text in its proper context. The context includes the other text of the Constitution and the structure of the Constitution, as well as the history and purpose of such text and structure.
As Chief Justice Roberts, himself, highlighted (quoting Alexander Hamilton), one of the abuses of power that the people who founded our nation and wrote and ratified our Constitution feared most was “judicial despotism.” Alleyne v. United States, 570 U.S. 99, 127 (2013) ((Roberts, C.J. and Scalia and Kennedy, JJ., dissenting) (quoting The Federalist No. 83 (A. Hamilton). "The Framers of the Constitution" clearly "understood the threat" of "judicial despotism." United States v. Booker, 543 U.S. 220, 238 (2005) (quoting same).
One of the most important improvements on government that was first (in the world) implemented in state constitutions and then in the U.S. Constitution was the separation of judicial powers from executive or legislative powers. Madison and Hamilton explained why that separation was crucial to our Constitution and our liberty (again highlighting the vital importance and meaning of the good behavior of judges).
In The Federalist Papers, James Madison (Federalist No. 47) and Alexander Hamilton (Federalist No. 78) invoked and quoted Montesquieu:
Madison: "The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many" is "the very definition of tyranny." The bottom line is that tyranny (an excessive accumulation of power) is dangerous and detrimental regardless of whether one (a monarch), a few (aristocrats) or many (in a democracy) possess the power of tyrants to oppress others.
"In order to form correct ideas on this important subject, it will be proper to investigate the sense in which the preservation of liberty requires that the three great departments of power should be separate and distinct. The oracle who is always consulted and cited on this subject is the celebrated Montesquieu." "Montesquieu" emphasized (and the people who wrote and ratified our Constitution believed) "There can be no liberty where the legislative and executive powers are united in the same person, or body of magistrates," or, "if the power of judging be not separated from the legislative and executive powers."
Hamilton: "I agree" with Montesquieu that "there is no liberty, if the power of judging be not separated from the legislative and executive powers." Maybe "liberty can have nothing to fear from the judiciary alone, but would have every thing to fear from its union with either of the other departments."
Difficult for me to entertain political complaints from judges until some judges are removed from the bench for cause.
This is an aberation, to be sure, but does it even show up in a list of large-scale historical problems?
Judges are no prophylaxis against bad overreach. They approved Japanese internment. They largely nullified the 14th Amendment for the better part of a century. They granted censorship, arguing you can't complain about the war because it stepped on Congress' plenary power to raise armies (and how Oliver Wendell Holmes changed his mind, currently on Radiolab!)
A few years from now, the same folks now on the ropes will be back to their too clever-by-half rationalizations, with associated judicial failings OKing all if it. The left's version of Make America Great Again.
Like...
○ Innumerable initiatives to investigate, arrest, charge, jail their political opponent, not because of concern for rule of law, but because he irritates, because he opposes. That's how the game is played. So many, surely some will stick.
○ Hyperbolating charges up to felonies that would otherwise be paperwork to be handled by accountants, because that might trigger further rationalizations for removal from office or banning from a ballot.
○ Seeking blue test states with compliant locals to try to ban from the ballot, in search of a holy grail of one or two slightly purple states to follow suit, and the math showed only one or two is sufficient to decide the election as a whole, something I pointed out, and then got paraphrased by one of the liberal SC judges, who even found that strategy problematic. This pushed by lovers of democracy, defenders of democracy.
○ The Constitution forbids the King from expropriating the estates of irritating Lords. So get various lawsuits totalling about half a billion dollars. Bingo! We've seized a huge chunk of his estate like tyrants of olde, rationalizers have a latte!
○ Lawyer-client privilege is sacred! Every cop TV show for 70 years says so! So what? We have a political opponent to nail. Cya, standards. Launch all facetious rationalizers!
The past 8 years, no one cared about honesty in front of judges, or judges preventing lying for nefarious ends not in accordance with the spirit, and sometimes the law, of the Constitution. Just facetious claims as cover stories to sic government on an opponent.
He's bad. I lightly recommended Kamala over him in spite of it rewarding motivated liars who were a disaster for America with deliberately-induced inflation. Yet this was less bad than letting tanks roll through Europe. Of course, we got more inflation anyway, ah well. We shall see, unfortunately. Not that "the oher side" can claim superiority on the issue.
David Post's brazen shamelessness is on full display!
Saying the emporor has no clothes when he’s standing stark naked in front of you is brazen shamelessness? Reporting true facts found by a court of law, that the administration lied, is brazen shamelessness?
What are you, some sort of Nazi?
"Not only has this never happened in all of American history"
In living memory. Old courtroom arguments aren't like modern baseball where we have detailed stats going back over a century and archived footage going back several decades.
The left loves Republicans who act exactly like Democrats.
You got no problem with the idea of the DoJ lying to the tribunal?
Reality and truth do not matter anymore. All that matters is Trump.
No actual example of DoJ lawyers lying to the court, or the administration going against the Constitution, as interpreted by Scotus. No substantive criticism. Just TDS.
There are actually a bunch of examples listed of DoJ lawyers lying to the courts.
Oh, c'mon.
Facts? We don't need no stinkin' facts.
I would clarify one thing: the linked sources in post discuss two prongs of the issue: not just lying to judges, but also defying them.
More precisely, there are examples of district court judges ruling against the Trump administration, with some loose language attacking the DoJ. But most of these cases have not held up on appeal, and are really examples of TDS judges.
David, the sad truth is that many judicial orders are not lawful (and sometimes a judge merely pretends to have issued an order that simply was not an order).
Federal law provides a remedy for violating a lawful order, but the government must prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) that an actual order was issued and that it was lawful. Congress (in 18 U.S.C. Section 401) gave federal courts the "power to punish by fine or imprisonment, or both" only "such contempt of its authority, and none other, as" (in relevant part) "Disobedience or resistance to" a "writ, process, order, rule, decree, or command" that was "lawful." That statute necessarily implies that unlawful orders can be defied. Rules of professional conduct governing attorneys do the same. See, e.g., ABA Model Rule 3.4(d): Fairness to Opposing Party & Counsel ("A lawyer shall not . . . knowingly [merely] disobey an obligation under the rules of a tribunal [without presenting] an open refusal based on an assertion that no valid obligation exists.").
Lying to a court may well be much worse that defying an actual (or purported) court order. Defying an actual (or purported) court order may be fulfilling the attorney's duty (oath) to support our Constitution. Lying to a court almost (if not actually) always will constitute violating the attorney's duty (oath) to support our Constitution.
Who ultimately decides whether the order was lawful?
Written by Thomas Jefferson, July 4, 1776, about the abuses of England's King George III:
"For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world.” “He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us.” “He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our Legislatures.” “He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people.” “Obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither.”
Note that we've had predictable replies from all the MAGA sources: ranging from the mindless "TDS" ad hominem to the whatabouts to the mildly more substantive "Luttig isn't conservative enough for me" ad hominem. But none of them have actually addressed the substance of the topic about administration lawyers lying to courts.
All they have is 'I don't believe it.'
Truth is just a measure of how aligned with their faction the speaker is.
If I wasn't seeing it, I wouldn't believe humans could fuck up their cognition this hard.
"administration lawyers lying to courts."
Perhaps David could list the names of admin lawyers held in contempt for doing so?
Perhaps David could list the names of admin lawyers facing criminal perjury charges for doing so?
Perhaps David could list the names of admin lawyers facing state bar sanctions for doing so?
NB: Didn't both Bill and Hillary Clinton face bar sanctions for lying?
The listed examples do not actually include administration lawyers lying. Just judges unhappy with the DoJ for various reasons.
That would be impossible, because perjury is a lie under oath and lawyers making representations to the court are not under oath.
That would be impossible, because bar proceedings are secret until the end.
No. This has been yet another episode of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
Huh? Bill Clinton was suspended from practice in Arkansas (where he was admitted) for five years for his false statements under oath in the Lewinsky case. As a result, he was forced (under threat of disbarment) to resign from the Supreme Court bar.
"NB: Didn't both Bill and Hillary Clinton face bar sanctions for lying?"
Bill Clinton was held in civil contempt for lying during his discovery deposition in the Paula Hound Dog lawsuit. Jones v. Clinton, 36 F.Supp.2d 1118 (E.D. Ark. 1999).
As part of an agreement negotiated with Independent Counsel Robert Ray (Kenneth Starr's successor), Bill Clinton voluntarily surrendered his Arkansas law license for a five year period of suspension. He subsequently resigned for the bar of the Supreme Court of the United States. In return, the Independent Counsel agreed not to prosecute him after leaving office as President.
I am unaware of Hillary Clinton having been disciplined for lying.
Wasn't Hillary fired from the Watergate committee for lying about something?
Probably not; the guy who claimed that he fired her changed his story to claim it; this lays that out.
I am well aware of all of that. But the question was, "Didn't both Bill and Hillary Clinton face bar sanctions for lying?" And the answer to that is, "No."
Hahaha. Richard Posner, in "An Affair of State," gives a brief analysis (I'm sure there are longer ones) of the legal consequences of that sort of equivocation when under oath. People have been convicted on such facts, though some have escaped.
"I am well aware of all of that. But the question was, "Didn't both Bill and Hillary Clinton face bar sanctions for lying?" And the answer to that is, "No."
Right. Connectors matter.
"Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is facing an ethical complaint from a government watchdog group calling on the Arkansas state bar to probe whether Clinton’s involvement in the Russia investigation into President Trump should affect her ability to practice law in the state.
The complaint, filed by Democracy Restored this week, cites the Arkansas Rules of Professional Conduct involving "Dishonesty" and "Prejudice to the Administration of Justice" and seeks a "formal review of the conduct of Hillary Rodham Clinton, Esq., a licensed attorney in the State of Arkansas, in connection with her actions during the 2016 presidential campaign."'
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/hillary-clinton-slapped-with-ethics-complaint-targeting-her-law-license-over-role-in-russiagate-scandal
NB: "Face" means potential, e.g. "Joe Blow is facing 50 years as he goes to trial tomorrow."
Objection overruled David. Your answer was evasive and still is.
WRONG AGAIN DAVID.
Bill Clinton was sanctioned by the Arkansas Bar Association and suspended from practicing law because he gave knowingly evasive and misleading testimony, (LYING), about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky during the Paula Jones sexual harassment lawsuit.
In 1998, Clinton testified under oath in the Paula Jones case, denying a sexual relationship with White House intern Monica Lewinsky. Federal Judge Susan Webber Wright later ruled that he had given false and misleading testimony and held him in civil contempt of court, ordering him to pay over $90,000 in sanctions.
You are correct that Hillary Clinton was not sanctioned for lying about sending classified emails through her private server. She was also not sanctioned for lying about deleting only personal emails. She was also not sanctioned for lying about landing in Bosnia under sniper fire. Nor was she sanctioned for lying about the Benghazi attacks being motivated by a YouTube video.
As far as I know, none of Hillary's questionable statements occurred in a judicial proceeding or under oath, so she could not have been professionally sanctioned for any of them.
Correct. Hillary never lied under oath. All of her lies were not under oath.
I know that. Did everyone here fail logic? A ⋏ B is false if either A is false or B is false. Since Hillary did not face bar discipline for lying, then the answer to Dr. Ed's question is no.
"Dishonesty" isn't "lying"?
Dishonesty may or may not be lying, depending on the form it takes, but Hillary never faced bar discipline for dishonesty or lying.
See above -- she FACED it but did not receive it.
She did not, and there's nothing "above" that says she did.
David, it's not impossible for DOJ lawyers to face criminal perjury charges for lying to courts. It's not true that federal agency lawyers making representations to a court never are under oath. For example, in FOIA cases, federal agency lawyers commonly sign declarations under penalty of perjury. It's not uncommon for agency lawyers (including DOJ attorneys) to lie in such a declaration. One excellent example was provided in CREW v. DOJ in D.C. when DOJ lawyers lied in declarations to try to conceal evidence proving that DOJ attorneys (including U.S. Attorney General Barr) had presented lies to Congress.
I think most regular folks would involuntarily double over and guffaw at the idea that lawyers as a whole "will not lie, will not misrepresent, will not say they do x and do y."
Seriously, though, and as routinely evidenced by prolific commenters in this very forum, lawyers are exceptionally adept at carefully finessing their statements so as to convey a completely different meaning than actual reality, and it's a rare brief indeed that doesn't accuse the other side of having misrepresented -- sometimes badly -- the facts, law, or both.
In my view, these well-understood flexible standards really take the wind out of the sails of this sort of selective outrage exercise. Indeed, flexible standards aren't even required, since to my eye the linked study makes no effort to study pre-Trump time frames or make any other effort to establish a baseline.
From the data provided, you could just as readily conclude that this generally small and generally partisan slice of judges have just decided to cast aside their more typical sense of decorum and inclination to give lawyers the benefit of the doubt because of their rabid dislike for the administration and its policy choices.
You're not engaging with the statements at all.
In fact, you didn't say anything of substance.
'Well based on generally how lawyers do lawyering and judges' modern judging trendifications, plus flexibility of things and stuff, this could be whatever it's all lies I think even though I've clearly not read any of the assertions.'
Come on, man. Read the cited material and engage with it. If you don't want to do that, you can just not post. This longwinded empty rationalization is just terrible.
Says the dude who, as exemplified here, rarely even pretends to say anything of substance.
Says the dude who, rather than reading and engaging with the broader point of my post, opted to caricature and deflect it.
I'm sure it'll blow your mind that I actually did flip through a number of the supposedly egregious examples before writing what I did.
And if I had actually gone back in time and pulled up comparable examples, I'd just get "whatabout whatbout." Don't pretend otherwise.
Man, apparently day 26 is a particularly challenging one for the self-proclaimed posting police. Hope you're able to have a better rest of your day.
My caricature was a specific critique of your post - that it was purely airy generalizations based on nothing but your own vibes.
It engaged with what you wrote.
By contrast, you've failed to speak about any of the examples linked in the OP.
I'm sure it'll blow your mind that I actually did flip through a number of the supposedly egregious examples before writing what I did.
Yeah, I didn't spend a lot of time weaving a tale of what you did before you wrote the post. If you read the examples, then show your work.
if I had actually gone back in time and pulled up comparable examples
Which would be a legit critique, because comparable examples don't negate the examples!
Your follow-up post here doesn't really dispel the notion that you are driven to say the OP is wrong, but not driven enough to do actual work establishing that.
You're just putting your head down and plowing forward.
My points were structural in nature, and are independent of the specific and super-totally-level-headed characterizations of the judges in the examples.
You desperately want to get lost in the weeds because you know my structural points are correct and irrefutable: 1) lawyers push the envelope of candor in front of tribunals--and get called out for it--on a routine basis, and 2) the cited study didn't look at anything outside the Trump administration and therefore is of no help at all in supporting the argument that this administration is objectively less honest than others.
Sorry this makes you so mad.
From the data provided, you could just as readily conclude that this generally small and generally partisan slice of judges have just decided to cast aside their more typical sense of decorum and inclination to give lawyers the benefit of the doubt because of their rabid dislike for the administration and its policy choices.
Before concluding that, wouldn't it make sense to understand the basis of the judges' complaints, and decide whether they are justified?
Instead, you offer the generalization that this is typical behavior for lawyers and no big deal. Your evidence is just comments on this blog.
Then you complain about the quality of the study.
If you yourself looked at them at all, a good number of them are the same hot-button cases (Garcia, the CECOT flights, Venezuelan TPS, etc.) we've debated around here as they've come up. So no, it doesn't really seem particularly useful to retread that sort of in-the-eye-of-the-beholder bickering. And as I said to Sarc when he kept trying to goad me into arguing specifics, that's a distraction from what I think is the more meaningful question: whether this is really any worse than usual, or is just being presented that way because everything is a pearl-clutching crisis these days.
At no point did I say it's no big deal, and I doubt you actually disagree that lawyers routinely play exquisite and often aggressive word games to color facts in their favor. What I did say, again, is that neither the article nor the "study" offer any objective way to understand whether the this administration is markedly worse than any other.
I don't know that quality is even on the table here. This is just an arbitrary collection of opinions of judges tongue-lashing lawyers, cabined to the time frame of the current administration. My issue is that people are citing the simple existence of this list as evidence of some sort of alarming crisis, when the very structure of the exercise doesn't give the information necessary to draw that conclusion.
a good number of them are the same hot-button cases (Garcia, the CECOT flights, Venezuelan TPS, etc.) we've debated around here as they've come up.
Yes. But the merits of the cases are not what the discussion is about. Rather, it is about the behavior of the DOJ lawyers. Two lawyers misbehaving in separate proceedings dealing with the same general issue is still two cases of misconduct.
A baseline would be helpful, of course, but can't we draw some conclusions from the fact that three retired federal judges, who served for a total of almost 40 years, are expressing the opinion that this sort of behavior is virtually unprecedented in their experience.
I think to dismiss this as "TDS," which seems to be the main complaint of the other critics, along with questioning Luttig's conservative bona fides, is nothing but cultishness.
Let's say there are 300 living retired Federal judges to keep the math simple. Three of them is 1%.
To put that into perspective, 13% of the public thinks Elvis is still alive. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans-still-love-elvis-40-years-after-his-death/
it doesn't really seem particularly useful to retread that sort of in-the-eye-of-the-beholder bickering
Facts are not opinions. There is no eye-of-the-beholder, there is correct and there is wrong.
In the end, word games are not lying to the tribunal. The linked study isn't faffing around with disingenuous - it's talking about when judges are seeing lies that break the duty of candor.
You're dodging the distinction between facts and opinion, and thus candor and lies.
And then you make a different argument - that maybe the baseline is just this high naturally. Which is a new front to argue on, and for which you provide no support.
It's two pretty different theses - that truth isn't the issue, and that this administration isn't extraordinary and, say, Biden had the same challenges.
You're not doing much to push either of them towards the finish line, just waiving the theses about like that's all you need to do.
Wow, you sure did pick an opportune time to discover the colors black and white! What a bunch of chin-stroking, sanctimonious baloney.
I agree with LoB to the limited extent of the one point that this shouldn't really be called a study. And think his other objections are nonsense.
"Seriously, though, and as routinely evidenced by prolific commenters in this very forum, lawyers are exceptionally adept at carefully finessing their statements so as to convey a completely different meaning than actual reality, and it's a rare brief indeed that doesn't accuse the other side of having misrepresented -- sometimes badly -- the facts, law, or both."
A lawyer is expected to present facts and the inferences drawn therefrom in the light most favorable to his client. That is proper advocacy, and it can involve emphasizing favorable facts and downplaying unfavorable facts.
Intentionally making a false statement of fact or law, OTOH, is serious misconduct and grounds for professional discipline -- most especially when made to a court of other tribunal. Rule 3.3 of the ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct (on which most states' attorney disciplinary rules are based) provides:
Doubts as to what the lawyer "knows to be false" are to be resolved in favor of the client. Take, for example, offering alibi testimony of questionable veracity in a criminal case. If the accused's wife testifies, "My husband was at home with me" at the relevant time, and the lawyer has not confirmed the truth or falsity of that statement, he can offer that testimony, even if it is contradicted by other evidence. If, however, the accused's wife testifies "My husband and I were having lunch with the lawyer who is representing him," and the lawyer in fact was not present as the witness describes, he would have a duty to call upon the witness to correct the false testimony, and if she refuses to do so, to disclose to the court that the lawyer in fact was not present as the witness testified.
Some states exempt a failure to correct testimony given by the lawyer's own client which the lawyer knows to be false, but it is unprofessional conduct to advance or make further use of that testimony (such as by referring to it in argument).
Rule 4.1 imposes an obligation of truthfulness in statements to pthers upon a lawyer:
In a criminal prosecution, a conviction obtained through use of false evidence, known to be such by representatives of the government, violates constitutional Due Process guaranties. "The same result obtains when the State, although not soliciting false evidence, allows it to go uncorrected when it appears." Napue v. Illinois, 360 U.S. 264, 269 (1959).
Hyperbole is usually a sign of a bad argument.
The past-tense allegation is bad enough, but to claim it true for eternity? Sorry, go back and try again if you want the rest of it to be taken seriously.
Perhaps explain how the court rolled over for FDR in amending the Constitution by reinterpretation. Or Lincoln's habeas corpus shenanigans. Or, yes, Andrew Jackson, and please, explain your excuse, don't just sneer at Dr Ed, that's no better than what Trump does.
Tu quoque 'cause you've got nothing.
If even half of what is being alleged about the FBI is actually true -- and remember that much of it has come from FBI whistleblowers who actually believe in the "integrity" part -- the Federal judiciary has been woefully negligent in not doing their jobs.
And then there was Lois Learner and the IRS and where were these Knights of the Law on that? Or the Green New Steal?
1) How can we "remember" something you've made up?
2) What do allegations about the FBI have to do with this discussion?3) Your other whatabouts make even less sense. (Also, it's Lois Lerner. Why are you so utterly incompetent at getting anything right?)
Where's your something? Oh, right, as usual, you got nothing but silly phrases you got from a pack of bubblegum.
You don't strike me as too dumb to understand why whatever FDR did is not relevant to whether or not something is happening right now.
But this blog has proven quite the object lesson in how people can be motivated to swear by failed arguments, so maybe you're situationally that dumb.
"when the nation needs the federal judiciary more than it has ever needed it, and will ever need it again."
What scares me about that line is if you already are at 11, how do you go louder if Trump started doing things that truly needed screaming about?
It's not true now, and we also have satellites, but during WWII, all the transatlantic cables went from Canada to Ireland and thus were under British wartime control -- and used by the British for propaganda, e.g. Germans bayoneting British babies -- and learned to be false after the war.
24 years later, that was remembered (much as we remember Sept 11th) and hence Americans didn't believe the initial reports of the Holocaust. FDR likely knew, its clear that the NYT knew, but most Americans didn't and dismissed the reports as more British wartime propaganda.
That's the very dangerous game the Never Trumpers are playing -- what if Trump, say, had a stroke and went off the deep end, doing truly horrific things -- like, say, what Argentina did (dumping political enemies into the ocean from airplanes to be eaten by sharks). If you believe all his people are mindless drones (they aren't) who would quietly go along with this (they WOULDN'T!), and you are already screaming "wolf" on a daily basis, who would ever listen to you?
1) It was WWI, not WWII.
2) It's (sort of) true that the first transatlantic cables were between Canada and Ireland. (Sort of, because actually it was Newfoundland to Ireland, and Newfoundland wasn't part of Canada at the time.) By WWI, however, there wee direct cables between the US and continental Europe.
3) As there were not a whole lot of German soldiers in England, the propaganda was about Germans bayonetting Belgian babies, not British ones.
Other than that, great comment!
He's murdering random people in the Caribbean right now for politics. Before he was sending innocent people to foreign torture gulags. What sort of threshold does it take for you to admit that he's doing truly horrific things?
Don't worry, Ed WOULDN'T go along with Trump dumping people out of helicopters and we know this because when Ed hears it from the White House itself that they're dumping bodies, he might actually believe it (but only then) and he WOULDN'T go along by writing something sorrowful here, but he'd still vote for Republicans because in his head voting for Democrats is simply pure evil and never to be done under any circumstance. In short he WOULDN'T go along but he also WOULDN'T do anything effective to stop it.
Trump already is summarily killing people, and he clearly doesn't need to dump them out of helicopters. Apparently, all he needs to do is find (or place) people on a boat far from the U.S. and blow up the boat and the people in it. Nothing I've seen about the recent killings by Trump and Hegseth gives me confidence that one or both of them wouldn't (or hasn't) just put someone on a boat in the ocean to pretend to justify murdering them in public.
"1) It was WWI, not WWII."
Correct. This was a typo.
"2) It's (sort of) true that the first transatlantic cables were between Canada and Ireland. (Sort of, because actually it was Newfoundland to Ireland, and Newfoundland wasn't part of Canada at the time.)"
Newfoundland is an ISLAND, were did the cable go next, where did it finally go ashore?
Yes, Canada. And hence it went from Canada to Ireland.
"By WWI, however, there wee direct cables between the US and continental Europe."
Which the British cut.
Dr. Ed, it's a very dangerous game to pretend that Trump right now needs to be defended from your so-called Never Trumpers. I'm not categorically against Trump. I am categorically against people in power dragging us into wars based on their own lies and deception and for no reason that actually does fulfill their oaths to support our Constitution.
I think a much more relevant analogy is how Bush and the people who supported him or used him got us into a war based on lies and deception about WMD in Iraq. Many Americans were killed or maimed and much money was wasted on a war that finally pushed Iraq under the complete control of Iran.
Many Americans were killed or maimed and much money was wasted on a war that finally pushed Afghanistan under the complete control of the Taliban.
Trump and the people who are supporting him or using him are right now trying to get many Americans killed or maimed and much money wasted on a war that they are pretending will be against Venezuela, alone. Trump has managed to unify many dangerous enemies who would love to help turn a U.S. conflict with Venezuela into something like Russia encountered in Ukraine.
A good point, BUT Russia is a third-rate power with nukes, and the Ukrainians feel about the Russians the way the Chinese do about the Japanese, and for the same reason.
I sneered at Dr. Ed because (a) the quote is apocryphal; (b) the quote, even if real, has nothing to do with lying to judges; and (c) the quote, even if real, doesn't say what Dr. Ed thinks it said. (It was not about Jackson defying the court.)
Lying to judges is more malfeasance than disobeying judges?
The apocryphal charge has not been proven either, can't be proven or disproven 200 years later, and your quibble is why lawyers earned their reputation.
Um, that there's no evidence he said it is exactly what makes it apocryphal.
Lying to judges and defying judges are equally malfeasant. But the Jackson quote was neither about lying to judges nor about defying judges.
The quote was made up by Horace Greeley long after Jackson's death. More lying by the main stream media.
Given that the district courts have been overturned approximately 50 percent of the time - what do the good and honorable judges have to say about the conduct of their peers?
It means those district court opinions turned out to be wrong, at least according to the higher courts.
Given that you made up the statistic, what does it say about you? Also, reversing a lower court ruling doesn't say anything about the "conduct" of the lower court. There are many reasons for a reversal, almost none of which involve wrongdoing.
David, I think "wrongdoing" does not mean what you think it means. A reversal necessarily means the judge(s) did something wrong. At the very least, it means the judge(s) necessarily violated controlling legal authority.
Sigh. No. You are completely wrong. It does not mean that at all "at the very least." At the very most it means that, but that is incredibly rare. Even assuming that the lower judge is being reversed on the law rather than the application of the law to the facts, most of the time it means that there wasn't any controlling legal authority, and the appellate court simply took a different view. Other times it means the appellate court reversed established precedent that was binding on the district court but not the appellate court.
David, show me a reversal of a judicial decision when a judge did not violate controlling legal authority. You can't. It's absurd to pretend that a higher court can reverse a lower court merely because "the appellate court simply took a different view" of the law. See, e.g., Fox v. Vice, 563 U.S. 826 (2011) ("A district court by definition abuses its discretion when it makes an error of law.").
It's absurd to pretend that an "appellate court reversed established precedent" without concluding that the prior so-called precedent did not violate controlling legal authority. Even SCOTUS emphasizes that prior SCOTUS decisions that it overrules violated controlling legal authority.
Correction: It's absurd to pretend that an "appellate court reversed established precedent" without concluding that the prior so-called precedent violated controlling legal authority.
I would say that you can't be this ignorant, but I think you really are. Have you never heard of a case of first impression?
Here's one: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-5572_l6hn.pdf
Every lower court that followed Chevron was doing what it was required to do; Chevron was binding legal precedent. In Loper-Bright, SCOTUS reversed the decisions of the lower courts that had faithfully followed Chevron, because SCOTUS overturned Chevron. But there was no "wrongdoing" by the lower courts; they did not violate or ignore anything.
David, think at least a little about what you're saying and what SCOTUS said in its opinion in the cases you purported to present or address.
The last paragraph of the SCOTUS opinion in Fischer v. United States said exactly how the D.C. Circuit violated controlling legal authority:
"To prove a violation of Section 1512(c)(2), the Government must establish that the defendant impaired the availability or integrity for use in an official proceeding of records, documents, objects, or as we earlier explained, other things used in the proceeding, or attempted to do so." The D.C. Circuit violated that requirement of controlling legal authority. So "[t]he judgment of the D. C. Circuit is therefore vacated, and the case is remanded for further proceedings consistent with this opinion."
Faithfully following a judge-made doctrine (even a doctrine fabricated by a majority of SCOTUS justices) clearly does not mean that courts were not violating controlling legal authority. Read the opinions in Loper-Bright. They explained in considerable detail how Chevron deference violated our Constitution.
For you, it seems necessary to state the obvious: our Constitution is controlling legal authority. Our Constitution must prevail over judge-made doctrine (even a doctrine fabricated by a majority of SCOTUS justices).
Perhaps the problem is that you don't actually understand the phrase "controlling legal authority." There wasn't any regarding that statute until after the Supreme Court's decision. If the D.C. Circuit interpreted the relevant statute that way now, it would be violating controlling legal authority. Before that, no Supreme Court decision told the D.C. Circuit how to interpret the statute.
It actually does 100% mean exactly that. Again, you're exposing your complete ignorance about our legal system. The "judge-made doctrine" set forth by a majority of SCOTUS justices is controlling legal authority. The lower courts were required to rule as they did. They were not free to say, "Jack Jordan thinks that SCOTUS 'fabricated' the Chevron rule, so we can ignore it." I'll repeat: They. Did. What. They. Were. Required. To. Do. Which is literally the opposite of "wrongdoing."
Yes, the Constitution is controlling legal authority. And SCOTUS decides what the Constitution means. It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is. Not the province and duty of Jack Jordan.
David, as I already said, you need to think at least a little about what you're saying and what SCOTUS said. This math is super simple.
Obviously, in Fischer the controlling legal authority was a federal statute. SCOTUS merely said what the law was. SCOTUS merely said what the existing statute necessarily meant. As Chief Justice Marshall and SCOTUS emphasized in Marbury v. Madison in 1803 (and many justices have repeated), "It is emphatically" the "duty of the judicial department to say what the [existing] law [actually] is. [Judges must] apply [a] rule to particular cases [so they] must of necessity expound and interpret that rule."
In Fisher, SCOTUS necessarily determined that the D.C. Circuit violated controlling legal authority (a federal statute). No matter how blind you pretend to be, the truth is simple and obvious for all to see. SCOTUS necessarily determined that the D.C. Circuit judges violated a federal statute, and violating a federal statute necessarily is doing wrong.
Regarding your second point, when judges determine that a prior decision of their own court violated our Constitution, they necessarily also determined that lower courts that acquiesced in such prior decision also violated our Constitution, and violating our Constitution necessarily is doing wrong. No matter how blind you pretend to be, the truth is simple and obvious for all to see.
A statute is not self-defining. Until a higher court tells the lower courts otherwise, there is no controlling legal authority as to what the statute means.
Even on your own terms, that's wrong. The statute in question forbids the tampering with documents with the intent to obstruct a legal proceeding; the Circuit judges did not tamper with documents with the intent to obstruct a legal proceeding. Therefore, they did not "violate" the statute. They interpreted it.
But I give up. You're more autistic and dumber than Brett Bellmore.
David, you lied again, and again you're making a joke of yourself. You really need to try to think at least a little about what you're saying and what SCOTUS said.
I didn't say or imply that "Penal laws do not forbid things because they don't use the word forbid. Also, penal laws authorize things even though they don't use the word authorize."
I said categorically that federal criminal statutes do not forbid any conduct. They authorize conduct by federal officials (prosecution, trial and sentencing to fine or imprisonment). Show me how any federal criminal statute does forbid any conduct. You cannot because they don't. They authorize process of law leading to imposition of punishment (depriving people of liberty or property).
You should look again at the Fischer opinion that you cited. It says nothing about any criminal statute forbidding the conduct at issue. Instead, it emphasized that a “violent felony” "was defined in relevant part by ACCA as a crime, punishable by more than a year’s imprisonment." "Section 1512(d)(1), by contrast, authorizes only three years’ imprisonment." "We have long recognized that 'the power of punishment is vested in the legislative, not in the judicial department,' " so legislators write laws identifying criminal conduct. "The Government’s reading of Section 1512 would intrude on that deliberate arrangement of constitutional authority" (violate our Constitution) by "giving prosecutors broad discretion to seek a 20-year maximum sentence for acts Congress saw fit to punish only with far shorter terms of imprisonment—for example, three years for harassment under §1512(d)(1), or ten years for threatening a juror under §1503."
I also provided an example of our Constitution forbidding conduct, even though it clearly did not use the word forbid: "No person" can "be deprived" by any federal employee "of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
Not only did you say and imply that earlier, but you just said and implied it again. But here's the thing: criminalizing conduct literally is forbidding it. I promise you that if you survey 340 million Americans, 300 million of them will agree on that point, and the other 40 million are under the age of 10 and might not understand the question.
David, you're just making a joke of your pretended legal acumen.
Your contention is absurd that "[u]ntil a higher court tells the lower courts otherwise, there is no controlling legal authority as to what the statute means." The whole point of requiring laws to be put into writing is that even average people are charged with knowledge of the law. That's why courts in even criminal cases say ignorance of the law is no excuse. Even more clearly, ignorance of the law is no excuse for a judge.
Any thinking person can see that a judge can violate federal law just like all the rest of us can commit a crime without some higher court first saying what the law means.
Additional contentions by you are also obviously false. They also highlight that you don't understand even the most fundamental legal principles and legal terminology regarding which you pretend to be an authority.
First, you clearly misrepresented that "The [criminal] statute in question forbids the tampering with documents with the intent to obstruct a legal proceeding." Second, you clearly misrepresented that "the Circuit judges did not tamper with documents with the intent to obstruct a legal proceeding. Therefore, they did not 'violate' the statute."
Show me any federal criminal statute that "forbids" anything. You can't because they obviously don't. No such statute uses the word "forbid" or anything comparable. In contrast, our Constitution clearly does forbid certain conduct by judges (and other public servants). It forbids any federal judge to deprive any person of life or any liberty or any property before affording such person all process of law that is due.
Federal criminal statutes identify conduct that is criminal, i.e., conduct that can be punished by fine or imprisonment. Such statures clearly forbid nothing. They clearly authorize conduct--they authorize federal executive branch officials to prosecute and they authorize federal judges (and often juries) to try and sentence people for committing crimes.
As a result of the foregoing, it should be very clear to you (and even the average person) that a federal judge can violate a federal criminal statute without committing the criminal conduct identified in the statute. Judges violate federal criminal statutes (and violate our Constitution) by failing to comply with them. This is super simple math.
The word "clearly" does not mean what you think it means; it does not in any way involve the voices in your head.
Also, like I said: autistic and dumb. You: "Penal laws do not forbid things because they don't use the word forbid. Also, penal laws authorize things even though they don't use the word authorize."
Just think about how stupid someone has to be to make the argument, "This law makes it a crime to do X, but that's different than forbidding people to do X."
David, you desperately need to read much more and think much more and talk much less. Again, your comments only highlighted your ignorance (and your hostility to enlightenment). The problem is (at best) that you're thinking like a lay person. You're not thinking like a lawyer.
You said "criminalizing conduct literally is forbidding it. I promise you that if you survey 340 million Americans, 300 million of them will agree on that point." Of course, many people believe what you said, and it may be a fair assessment of what the average American thinks a federal criminal statute means. Even so, their belief does nothing to make it even relevant to this discussion. Such belief of lay persons is obviously irrelevant to attorneys or judges speaking about whether judges violated a federal criminal statute--which is what you and I are discussing, right?
Regarding this issue, the meaning of `our Constitution and our laws does not and cannot depend on your sentiments or your survey or the mere sentiments of lay persons today. It seems to me (from multiple discussions trying to help you understand our Constitution) that the real problem is that you know (or respect) very little about what our Constitution means or how it functions. A practicing lawyer should not be as ignorant as you are of our Constitution or the functioning of our legal system, so I'll try to help you even more than I already have.
You are apparently ignorant--apparently willfully blind--of some of the most fundamental, most vital, most thoroughly discussed principles in our Constitution. The people who wrote and ratified our Constitution--and who discussed its meaning for years without the benefit of any insight from even one federal judge--understood our Constitution much better than you do and they cared much more about it than you do.
Please keep your eyes on the ball, and stop trying to move the goalposts, Again, the point of this discussion is the power of U.S. employees, including judges, under our Constitution. The two precise points here are the following.
First, judges and prosecutors (and the president) can VIOLATE federal criminal statutes (and our Constitution) without committing the crimes in such statutes. That principle even is encapsulated in a particular well-known clause (the Due Process Clause) of Amendment V: "No person" may "be deprived" of "life" or any "liberty" or any "property" by any federal employee before being afforded all "process of law" that is "due."
Second, EVERY appeal of federal judicial conduct is an appeal of a VIOLATION of the supreme law of the land (consisting of only our Constitution, federal law made in pursuance of our Constitution and treaties). EVERY appeal of any judge's application of a federal criminal statute necessarily is an appeal of a judge's VIOLATION of the supreme law of the land (our Constitution and the federal criminal law).
Amendment X did (and was designed to) summarize our entire Constitution in a single sentence. The first and last parts of that sentence emphasized principles that govern here. The overarching rules are simple and were stated simply in Amendment X: federal public servants have ONLY the limited "powers" that were "delegated to the United States by the Constitution," and all other "powers" relevant here were "reserved" to "the people."
Article III emphasizes that all federal "judicial Power shall extend" only as far as permitted "under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties." Clearly, no judge was delegated any power to violate any part of the supreme law of the land. Equally clearly, every judge who fails to comply with the supreme law of the land necessarily violates it.
The foregoing parts of the Tenth Amendment and Article III reinforced the Preamble's emphasis that the people are sovereign. As the supreme legislative authority in the U.S., "We the People" did "ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America" to "establish Justice" and "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves."
To support the foregoing in the Preamble and to apportion powers between the people and our federal public servants, Article I prohibits passing any "Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law." You really should read some SCOTUS decisions addressing the meaning and history of those provisions.
In short, the governing principles are the following. First, only Congress (usually with the president's consent) was delegated the power to make conduct criminal, and ONLY by enacting a federal criminal statute "in pursuance" of our Constitution. Second, only the executive branch can initiate and pursue a criminal prosecution--and ONLY with due process of law (in compliance with a federal criminal statute and our Constitution). Third, only judicial officers (judges and lawyers) and juries can conduct a trial to determine whether conduct was criminal--and ONLY with due process of law (in compliance with a federal criminal statute and our Constitution). Fourth, only judges can impose punishment--and ONLY with due process of law (in compliance with federal law and our Constitution).
As a result of and consistent with the foregoing, every federal criminal statute is an AUTHORIZATION (by Congress (usually with the president's consent)) of (1) prosecution by the executive branch and (2) trial by the judicial branch. The Due Process Clause of Amendment V necessarily means that every criminal prosecution, trial and sentencing must comply with the supreme law of the land. EVERY federal appeal (that has any legal merit) necessarily is an appeal of a violation of the supreme law of the land (our Constitution or federal law or a treaty) by a judge.
Correction: As a result of and consistent with the foregoing, every federal criminal statute is an AUTHORIZATION (by Congress (usually with the president's consent)) of (1) search, seizure, prosecution and punishment by the executive branch and (2) trial and sentencing by the judicial branch.
David, you truly need to read and think about the text and structure of federal criminal statutes and the interplay between such statutes and our Constitution. Take the statute that primarily was at issue in the Fischer case that you cited (18 U.S.C. 1512). It did not forbid or prohibit anything. It clearly stated the authorization by Congress to prosecute, try and punish people who engaged in ONLY the conduct that Congress identified and it authorized ONLY the punishment that Congress specified. So the statute said: "Whoever" has engaged in the conduct Congress identified "shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both."
One reason you (and all Americans) really should understand the principles at issue here is that many Americans are thinking about how Trump and Hegseth are violating our Constitution by summarily executing people (without due process of law) whom they have merely accused (not even in any indictment) of merely planning to commit an unspecified crime at an unspecified time in the future at an unspecified location under U.S. jurisdiction. By purporting to punish such potential crimes (and enforce federal criminal law) by imposing capital punishment, Trump and Hegseth are violating (at least) the following parts of our Constitution.
Article III:
"The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish."
"The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed."
Amendment V:
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury."
"No person shall . . . be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
Amendment VI:
"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."
Amendment VIII:
No "cruel and unusual punishments" may be "inflicted."
Trump and Hegseth also necessarily are violating federal criminal law because they are imposing a punishment (death) that was not authorized by Congress in whatever statute they are pretending to enforce. And to your insistence that federal criminal statutes forbid conduct, whatever statute Trump and Hegseth are pretending to enforce clearly does not forbid any conduct by the people on the boats Trump and Hegseth are blowing up. Any such statute only authorizes only potentially prosecuting, trying and punishing those people with all process of law that is due.
Pitchers in baseball have "earned run averages."
What is considered to be a "good" reversal rate for a Federal District Judge? Has anyone ever calculated this as a statistic?
No. Nor — even setting aside categorization and data collection problems — would it make any sense to do so. A lower court judge can be reversed because (a) he misunderstood binding precedent, or (b) because the appellate court disagreed with him on a matter of first impression. The former is a mark against him; the latter is not, so lumping those together would obscure more than it would reveal.
David, clearly a "judge can be reversed" for much more than merely "because (a) he misunderstood binding precedent, or (b) because the appellate court disagreed with him on a matter of first impression."
Judges can be and are reversed for pretending that what judges say or choose to do is more important what the law and our Constitution says and requires judges to do. Justice Scalia (writing for SCOTUS) had this to say about that in Brogan v. United States, 522 U.S. 398 (1998): “Courts may not create their own limitations on legislation [or constitutions other controlling legal authority], no matter how alluring the policy arguments for doing so, and no matter how widely the blame may be spread” among any quantity or quality of courts.
Sometimes, judges are reversed because they clearly misrepresented facts or they clearly misrepresented whether evidence proved a purported fact or they illegally excluded evidence.
This is about facts.
Trying to open a can of works about the law is a deflection. Law doesn't matter to the issue of some pretty broad evidence the DoJ is lying to the tribunal. And that this is new.
How do you purport to know this, Mr. "you didn't say anything of substance"?
Because I read the linked study.
The presumption of regularity hasn't been broadly challenged before.
Unless you want ot argue there's been a ton of DoJ lying previously which judges covered up, it's not really up to debate that this is new.
But they explicitly say they're NOT challenging it: "The documented cases below are not intended to indicate when we think courts should apply the presumption."
They're just making arbitrary lists of inflammatory situations, which they fully admit are arbitrary: "Well before the Trump administration, the metes and bounds of the presumption were unsettled, and its pedigree was ripe for being questioned."
This is a straw man based on the very absence of intellectual curiosity I've been discussing all day. To my knowledge, groups of activist law school students haven't mined prior cases to find judges calling out lawyers for candor issues. If you're aware of any, please do share.
"groups of activist law school students haven't mined prior cases to find judges calling out lawyers for candor issue"
We haven't HAD groups of activist law students like this before.
You know as much about this topic as you do about 16th century Songhai poetry.
Sarcastr0, the presumption of regularity has been challenged much more often than the DOJ might like to admit. And federal judges (including those who were DOJ attorneys) have helped cover up a lot of lying by DOJ attorneys.
Any such presumption exists only in litigation and only for a particular legal reason. It does not apply to "the government" merely because it is "the government." Such a presumption would apply to any party in litigation when the other party must bear the burden of proof. The presumption is a rule of law (it is part of "the rule of law"), so it applies regardless of whether government employees generally are considered trustworthy or not.
Federal law (Federal Rules of Evidence Rule 301. Presumptions in Civil Cases Generally) shows how the presumption works. It emphasizes that the presumption does not apply to any public official merely because he is part of "the government." The rule in ANY civil litigation is that ANY "party against whom a presumption is directed has the burden of producing evidence to rebut the presumption." In most cases the plaintiff must bear the burden of proof regardless of whether the defendant is the government or a private entity.
Of course, as Rule 301 states, any such presumption is not absolute. It is rebuttable. It can be rebutted, for example, with evidence that the party favored by the presumption lied or even merely presented false or misleading information.
There also is no presumption of regularity favoring the government in any case in which the government must bear the burden of proof. The presumption of regularity applies when a plaintiff sues the government in ligation, so it applies primarily to protect us (the taxpayers), not to protect the public servants who are accused of violating the law.
Any such presumption exists only to the extent that the plaintiff in litigation must bear a burden of proof. Suits under several legal regimes illustrate this point. The classic illustration is the "presumption of innocence" (which favors criminal defendants and disfavors the government). The "presumption of innocence" is a corollary to the burden of proof that the government must bear: the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt every material fact establishing guilt of a crime.
Under the Freedom of Information Act, the government also must bear the burden of proof, so it is not entitled to any "presumption of regularity." Even so, many hundreds of court papers prepared by DOJ attorneys and judicial opinions assert an obvious falsehood (an obviously illegal and unconstitutional pretense) that the law requires that federal agency declarations in FOIA cases be afforded a "presumption of good faith."
FOIA, itself, expressly established the opposite presumption. Each agency must bear the “burden” to “sustain its action.” 5 U.S.C. § 552(a)(4)(B). To “withhold information under" FOIA, the agency must prove that an “agency [employee] reasonably [and actually] foresees that disclosure would harm an interest protected by [a FOIA] exemption.” 5 U.S.C. § 552(a)(8)(A).
FOIA “establishes” a “strong presumption in favor of disclosure.” Pub.L. 110-175 §2, 121 Stat 2524 (2007) (OPEN Government Act of 2007) quoting United States Dep’t of State v. Ray, 502 U.S. 164, 173 (1991). Such “presumption” necessarily “applies to all agencies” and courts in all matters “governed by” FOIA. Id. “Consistently with [FOIA’s] purpose” and its “plain language,” such “strong presumption” places “the burden on the agency to justify the withholding of any requested documents.” Ray, 502 U.S. at 173. The agency must “produc[e] evidence to rebut the presumption.” FED.R.EVID. 301.
In FOIA cases, federal judges and DOJ attorneys have shockingly often illegally invoked a purported "presumption of good faith" to pretend that the government need not even produce evidence to prove facts that would establish that conclusory contentions in agency declarations are true. Federal judges and DOJ attorneys all too commonly pretend that the "presumption of good faith" is a license to lie--a license for not only DOJ attorneys, but also federal judges, to lie.
It's good that the lower courts are making an effort to maintain the rule of law, but it all comes to naught when it reaches the Dread Justice Roberts.
Or Roberts is trying to maintain the rule of law, while rogue district judges go TDS.
TDS TDS TDS TDS. That's all you got, Roger.
Plonk.
Chief Justice Roberts and five of his fellow black robed wardheelers care nothing about the Rule of Law. Trump v. United States, 603 U.S. 593 (2024), a decision cut from whole judicial cloth, shows Roberts to be Donald Trump's handmaid.
These statements and links are circular without substance, just more of the same as reported by MSNBC in past years. Simple declarative opinions, thus refuting can't be done, because there's nothing presented.
This is your today's legal system, live with it. Suck it up.
Cato is not very reliable these days, such as the bait and switch Right-Wing violence is greater and goes on to list murders only from 1975 on, thus bypassing those of the 60's, and not reporting the bulk of non-lethal violent actions and disruptions and property damages. Do that Cato and get back to me. However, it's pointless to rehash what's been done.
And so, to state aliens have full standing and full rights in the USA is lying itself. Their rights are limited and dependent on any documentation given when they entered. For those without documentation, tough luck, you're out of here, case closed.
"You're only considering the last 50 years" is a pretty sad attempt at accusing someone of cherrypicking.
That is, of course, wrong.
It's almost like some explained the "presumption of regularity" to Trump and he thought "Oh, great! That gives us a license to lie to the courts and they have to accept anything we say as the truth."
I saw yesterday that the 5th Ford-class super carrier will be named the USS William J. Clinton thanks to action taken by the Navy Department in January 2025. A thank you from Biden on the way out the door. I guess every ex-president will get a carrier named after them. Probably not W. That would be too confusing. I wish they would stop this nonsense and go back to naming carriers after famous battles, stinging insects, or other classic warship names.
Correction. According to Wikipedia, they are naming one after W. This has got to stop.
There is zero chance Trump will get a carrier, or even a rowboat named after him. It would be as absurd as a USS Benedict Arnold or USS Robert Hanssen.
I'll trade you. No carrier for Trump as long as W and Clinton don't have carriers named after them.
Fine by me. I don't think carriers should be named after presidents at all. Triple that sentiment for living presidents.
Or HMS Cromwell. Churchill but the kabosh on that.
That is obviously untrue, as there's a decent chance that Trump himself simply orders a ship to be named after himself.
He would have to rename the Kennedy. Only one coming due in his term.
Whatcwould Trump have in common with Benedict Arnold or Robert Hansen?
Assuming that "Hansen" is a typo for "Hanssen," only two of the three worked for the best interests of Russia, so that can't be it. Hmm… all three caused the deaths of bunches of Americans?
Does the DOJ's reputation and credibility matter? Federal prosecutors/US attorneys were once a very select and highly trained body of lawyers who JUST BECAUSE THEIR TITLE carried respect and a bit of prestige.
Now you have career DOJ attorneys being forced out for being perceived as not sufficiently loyal politically. For following their own DOJ guidelines. Others have voluntarily left because the ethical situation these issues present made them uncomfortable. The DOJ is supposed to be somewhat independent. But Habba and Halligan and Pirro...Blanche and Bove (when he was there) and Bondi have made it a total clown show.
To answer my first question: yes, of course reputation matters. A district judge faced with a credibility assessment between two competing sets of facts has to choose. The district judge has to rule after all. If they suspect the declarations submitted by the govt are misleading or false and the DOJ attorney doesn't correct the record and goes on to double or triple down on it...guess who loses?
That's why habitual lying is typically a self-correcting problem. If you lie habitually, people stop believing you, and your lies become random noise. If that happens to the Justice Department generally, it will be funny (I mean, because the misfortunes of others are funny), but harmless.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/material-factual-error-9th-circuit-reverses-victory-for-trump-admin-in-national-guard-case-after-discovery-shows-feds-lied-about-troop-numbers-in-oregon/
Consequences are something the Trump administration doesn't seem to appreciate. A normal ethical person would see lying hurts them and change their behavior. An unethical hack would attack the Courts/judges. Guess what path this DOJ/administration continually pursues? The 9th circuit just stayed themselves due to lying. Over in the 7th cir; the district court judge granted IL's request and during the hearing said the DOJ was lying and because of that, she had to rule against them.
More and more - the DOJ's reputation is going straight into the toilet. And its not happening in one place or one district. It's happening nationwide. Good luck recruiting new qualified talent when you need to replace those you fired or who left voluntarily when your reputation is absolute dog shit.
Why are these judges sitting on their tucheses kvetching like helpless bubbameissers? Why aren’t they using their power and taking action? Why don’t they suspend government attornies they catch lying to them from practicing before the federal courts? Why do they just sit there and put up with shit like this? Why do they act is if they had no power to stop it?
If the first time this happened, they found the the lawyer involved in contempt and suspended them from working on a federal case for a year, the second time for 2 years, etc., attornies who still did this would be suspended from practice for life by now.
Sure, if they found them in criminal contempt the President could simply pardon them. But they could find them in civil contempt.
Sure, it’s never been done before. But as Judge Luttig said, we’re facing a new situation.
Most likely because the lawyers aren't, in fact lying. The study documents claims by judges, claiming to not believe the lawyers. Not the same thing. It is entirely possible that the judges are engaging in political rhetoric, not judging, which they are prohibited from doing. There is NO study proving government lawyers have, in fact, lied. Because they have not done so. These statements by judges are improper and unethical, as they address matters not before them in a case and exhibit bias against a party, the government. Doing so is best explained by TDS.
Er, no.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/material-factual-error-9th-circuit-reverses-victory-for-trump-admin-in-national-guard-case-after-discovery-shows-feds-lied-about-troop-numbers-in-oregon/
like helpless bubbameissers
I think the phrase you are looking for is "bubbe mansehs," which translates almost directly as "old wives' tales," and has little to do with the point of your comment, which, BTW, I don't disagree with.
Unfortunately, the legal profession looks after its own.
Here you go: https://jel.jewish-languages.org/words/1430?ref=josephnoelwalker.com
Fish rots from the head. Or in this case, heads.
Shut up, bitch.
Funny how the people that claimed Kevin Clinesmith wasn't a big deal for forging evidence and lying to the courts are now trying to claim that presenting an alternate viewpoint to some things is super evil and proof, PROOF I SAY, that Trump is worse than anything that has come before and anything that ever will.
The claim wasn't that Clinesmith's act wasn't criminal, but that it was an isolated, unauthorized act rather than evidence of some grand FBI/Deep State conspiracy. In contrast, the lies being discussed above are the formal actions of the Trump administration. We know that because none of the malfeasants have been fired, let alone prosecuted, for their conduct.
This article highlights a deeply troubling pattern within the DOJ and raises serious concerns about honesty and accountability in the justice system. It’s reassuring, though, to see judges from across the political spectrum standing firm to uphold the rule of law. It also makes one reflect on broader judicial dynamics, including ongoing debates about which Supreme Court justices are conservative (https://thecourtdirect.com/which-supreme-court-justices-are-conservative) and how their interpretations influence the balance of justice in the United States.