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Second Amendment Roundup: 3d Circuit Oral Argument on N.J. Rifle Ban
The en banc court exhibited a deep understanding of the issues.
On October 15, the Third Circuit en banc heard arguments on New Jersey's prohibition on numerous semiautomatic firearms (pejoratively named "assault firearms") and magazines holding over ten rounds. Three cases were consolidated under the title Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, Inc. (ANJRPC) v. Attorney General New Jersey. The district court in ANJRPC held the rifle ban to violate the Second Amendment but upheld the magazine ban. Earlier, a Third Circuit panel upheld the magazine ban, but the Supreme Court ordered it to reconsider in light of Bruen. In August, the Third Circuit sua sponte ordered that the appeal of the district court decision be held en banc.
Predictably, the "common use" test set forth in Heller and Bruen was at the heart of the controversy. The challengers argued that the banned firearms are bearable "arms" in the meaning of the text, and that the Supreme Court in Heller decided that arms in common use may not be banned under the history and tradition test. Counsel agreed with a judge that the banned firearms are in common use both numerically and as determined by the numbers of gun owners. The Supreme Court in Staples, and most recently in S&W v. Mexico, acknowledged that AR-15 rifles are commonly possessed by Americans.
New Jersey rejected what it called a "popularity test" for common use and argued that the banned firearms and magazines are not in common use, meaning that on average a gun is fired only 2.2 times in self-defense. But "common use" refers to "keeping and bearing" and not "shooting/going bang bang" at a bad guy. To use arms as in to keep and bear means, as Heller stated, "to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation."
Judge Hardiman noted that Heller referred to defense against tyranny three times, and that self-defense being the "central component" of the Second Amendment implied other lawful purposes. New Jersey changed the subject to machineguns, suggesting that the high number of registered machineguns – 176,000 – proved the numerosity test to be unworkable. Judge Hardiman countered that they are bound by Heller's statement that machineguns are not protected. Moreover, the challengers noted, registered machineguns are largely held today as collector's items, not for self-defense, and many are not even functional. This is a phantom question that the court need not resolve.
Moreover, the challengers pointed out that, unlike semiautomatics with magazines that have been chosen by Americans for over a century, machineguns were never widely accepted into the market as useful for self-defense, not to mention hunting and target shooting. While a semiautomatic can pinpoint aggressors and avoid bystanders in a self-defense situation, indiscriminately firing in full automatic cannot distinguish the guilty from the innocent.
That got into the issue of arms that are "dangerous and unusual." Judge Matey asked whether the element of creating "terror to the people" implied that the people at large are a factor in what is common use. The challengers responded that doing so was a common-law offense but that carrying arms peaceably is not subject to a heckler's veto. Arms that are commonly carried are not dangerous and unusual.
While most historical references use the term "dangerous and unusual," New Jersey contended that some also use the formulation "dangerous or unusual," citing Blackstone. But Blackstone referred not to mere possession, but to "riding or going armed, with dangerous or unusual weapons, … terrifying the good people of the land." Heller used the term "dangerous and unusual," and Justice Alito, concurring in Caetano, wrote that "this is a conjunctive test: A weapon may not be banned unless it is both dangerous and unusual." And Bruen found aspects of English history "ambiguous at best," seeing "little reason to think that the Framers would have thought it applicable in the New World."
New Jersey then claimed that "dangerous or unusual" actually boils down to the test of "unusually dangerous," a term never used by the Supreme Court. In any event, it ultimately doesn't matter, because common arms cannot be unusually dangerous.
In response to a question of whether the people decide subjectively what they deem appropriate for self-defense, New Jersey argued that "the people" through their representatives decide what is unusually dangerous based on their perception of "objective characteristics." As one judge suggested, since all firearms are dangerous under the alleged dangerous-or-unusual test, no limit would exist on what the legislature may choose to ban, despite what the people choose.
New Jersey responded that AR-15s have been used in mass shootings, to which another judge noted that handguns are used in the majority of murders, yet Heller held them to be protected. Indeed, the Virginia Tech shooting in 2007 involved the criminal using modern semiautomatic handguns with so-called "large-capacity magazines," yet a year later, the Supreme Court decided Heller. Not to mention that there were other similar pre-Heller murders, showing that mass shootings were not considered "unprecedented" in the minds of the Justices even back in 2008.
New Jersey counsel was fixated on the "Bowie knife craze" of the nineteenth century that prompted laws that are supposedly the most substantial analogues for New Jersey's rifle and magazine ban. But most of those laws restricted only concealed carry, not possession. What is more, the outcome of cases challenging Bowie knife laws turned on common use. For example, the Texas Supreme Court held in Cockrum v. State (1859) that citizens had a right to carry Bowie knives for lawful self-defense, even though the Bowie knife was the "most deadly of all weapons in common use."
Since the focus was on the AR-15 semiautomatic rifle, the question arose whether the court should remand the case to the district court for fact finding on the other rifles as well as the shotguns and handguns on the ban list. The challengers answered in the negative, as all (except one shotgun) were semiautomatics and shared many of the same features. Staples drew the line at full automatics versus semiautomatics. Moreover, the burden was on New Jersey to demonstrate that each and every weapon it sought to ban was not in common use. It had ample opportunity to fulfill that burden but failed to introduce such evidence. See Mark W. Smith, "What Part of 'In Common Use' Don't You Understand?" JLPP (2023) (the common-use issue is encompassed in the history-tradition test of Bruen and, thus, the burden rests with the government to prove a banned arm NOT in common use).
New Jersey argued that in contrast to handguns, AR-15s have muzzle velocity that can shoot through walls and can fire out to 500 yards, features not appropriate for self-defense. A judge stated that a rifle may be better for self-defense in a rural area, asking whether the Second Amendment recognizes a rural-urban distinction. New Jersey responded that a Bowie knife or a machinegun could also be useful for self-defense, but are still not protected. Once again, that side steps the fact that AR-15s meet the common-use test. Also recall that the majority in Bruen rejected Justice Breyer's dissenting argument that violence with firearms is "more common in urban areas than rural ones."
Since the record established that AR-15 rifles typically come with magazines holding no more than thirty rounds, which in turn are in common use, the question arose of whether a facial challenge is proper since the record reflected nothing about magazines holding over thirty rounds. The challengers responded that the ban is facially unconstitutional because it essentially bans all magazines that hold over ten rounds, making it invalid in all applications. It is not an element of the criminal offense that a magazine hold over thirty rounds. Similarly, Heller facially invalidated a handgun ban in toto, even though it suggested that full automatics could be banned. And Bruen facially invalidated New York's "may-issue" carry regime even though the Court reaffirmed that felons could be banned from public carry and that "sensitive places" may exist that warrant a carry ban in certain locations.
New Jersey sought to depict the facial challenge as improper because plaintiffs didn't challenge the law's subsection defining firearms equipped with bumpstocks as "assault firearms." Since these items are not at issue, the challengers responded that the court could view the case as challenging the other subsections of the assault weapons definition. Whether that is characterized as facial with respect to those subsections or as-applied is a matter of semantics.
Early in the argument, one of the judges warned that they must not "stray into intermediate scrutiny," which Bruen soundly rejected. New Jersey counsel did just that with the argument that the state, not the people, decide what is so "unusually dangerous" that it can be banned. That wholly flips the purpose of a guarantee in the Bill of Rights, which confirms "the right of the people" themselves to pick the arms they desire to keep and bear.
With the new Administration, circumstances are changing in the Second Amendment space. The United States filed an amicus curiae brief on behalf of the challengers. Moreover, the composition of the Third Circuit recently changed. Judge Emil Bove took the bench in July, and Judge Jennifer Mascott was sworn in shortly before the oral argument. If the court holds that New Jersey's firearm and magazine bans violate the Second Amendment, as it should, it will – to use Justice Kavanaugh's words in Snope – "assist [the Supreme] Court's ultimate decisionmaking on the AR–15 issue."
I litigated the New Jersey rifle and magazine bans decades ago in Coalition of New Jersey Sportsmen v. Whitman (D. N.J. 1999), aff'd (3d Cir. 2001). That was pre-Heller, so we focused on vagueness and equal protection. The state argued that the ban list consisted of semiautomatics, but many have machinegun names, most obviously the Avtomat Kalashnikov (Russian for Kalashnikov's automatic rifle). At oral argument in the Third Circuit, one of the judges disagreed with our vagueness argument, unbelievably stating that "everyone knows what an assault weapon is, it's a submachinegun with a silencer." Predictably, we got an adverse ruling. We've come a long way since then.
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A sub with a silencer! Now that sounds fun (and expensive).
They are
The problem with many judges is not what they don’t know, its what they know that is simply not true.
All fully automatic weapons are expensive to operate. With a suppressor? Even more so, since the suppressor needs occasional rebuilding as well.
Still, I'm grateful dad bought some when it was legal, and I got to inherit.
Well a Suppressor does make them more pleasant to shoot, so you do shoot more, so yes.
But unlike Machineguns, the supply of legal Suppressors isn't frozen to those registered May 19, 1986, so they're cheap.
Bought all my stuff in the early 90's $2,500 for a NIB Colt M16A1 (and people thought that was a ripoff, since they had been $700 a few years earlier) Mac 10's were $500, but the place I bought from would do 3 for $1450 (I'm saving money by spending $950 more!!!)
Coolest one is the one I didn't pay anything for, my Granddad's M-2 Carbine that was Amnesty Registered in 1968, now THAT one will eat up some Ammo
Frank
"New Jersey rejected what it called a "popularity test" for common use and argued that the banned firearms and magazines are not in common use, meaning that on average a gun is fired only 2.2 times in self-defense."
That's certainly an unusual twist. According to New Jersey, the problem is that people are not shooting each other enough. If they shot each other at the rate NJ prefers the guns would then come into "common use" and be protected.
"Judge Hardiman countered that they are bound by Heller's statement that machineguns are not protected."
No! That is dicta. Not necessary to the holding. SCOTUS had no power to issue such a binding opinion in the Heller case as Heller had nothing at all to do with machine guns.
Honestly, it’s the most compelling argument.
A 10 round magazine is large enough for self defense but does marginally limit the damage that can be done by a mass shooter.
However the data also shows that to have a 90% probability of hitting your assailant while under duress, you probably need a 19 round magazine. Based on NYPD experience.
re: "but does marginally limit the damage that can be done by a mass shooter"
Objection, assumes facts not in evidence. In fact, the evidence from a review of actual mass shooter incidents shows that most of them are committed with by shooters with multiple standard capacity magazines.
It might be plausible in the absence of evidence to assume that such a control might be an effective control against mass shooters. It is no longer plausible once you have evidence to the contrary.
Quick search beware AI hallucination.
Notable examples
2009 Fort Hood shooting: A civilian police sergeant, Kimberly Munley, was one of the individuals who confronted the shooter, Nidal Hasan. A witness testified that she shot Hasan while he was reaching for a fresh magazine.
2011 Tucson shooting: At an event for U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords, the shooter was tackled by bystanders after he paused to reload his weapon.
2018 Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting: The pause the shooter took to reload gave students time to escape down a stairwell. A former police chief stated that interviews with student survivors confirmed they understood the pause was their chance to flee.
2023 Lewiston shootings: During the shooting at a bowling alley, a patron turned off the building's power while the shooter was reloading, an action that law enforcement said saved many lives
10 rounds is sufficient? Then the police and military should be satisfied with ten round magazines, right?
Because a civilian is much more likely to be the only person on scene when a defensive shooting happens, than the police or military.
A semiauto can be reloaded in a bare second. So can a revolver - check youtube for videos of Jerry Miculek setting some records with a revolver - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHG-ibZaKM
As well, most police in urban areas wear "bullet-proof" vests, have multiple police show up quickly (sometimes with helicopters and drones), have no obligation to protect any particular individual, are not awoken from a deep slumber (well, unless they are dozing in their patrol car after a doughnut fest) needing to defend themselves quickly from multiple attackers.
In fact, multiple attackers seem to be encountered very, very rarely by urban police in a situation where they must defend themselves (vs. just hang out outside waiting for the SWAT team and hostage negotiators). The same can not be said of home invasions (vs. burglaries gone bad) where two or three attackers seems (at least in my area) the norm.
So, perhaps, police really only need five round magazines -- and perhaps should just go back to carrying revolvers (and speedloaders) as they are more reliable (pull trigger - BANG or CLICK. If CLICK just pull again - BANG).
However, in fact, it seems most police in areas I've lived in recently have at least two spare fully loaded magazines on their persons - suggesting that even the scary "high capacity" magazines in their pistols are not sufficient.
If Miculek were typical, he wouldn't be famous.
By their argument, the Secret Service does not need guns.
I'll buy a smart gun with some magic limiting to only working with me, just as soon as the Presidential Protection Detail starts carrying them
2A case law is unwieldy and incomprehensible. This case makes that very clear. This is because SCOTUS is bashing a square peg (individual right to a gun) into a round hole (right of states to have militias).
The 2A is about the right of states to have militias. This non-sense with Trump wanting to use the National Guard to occupy places he does not like reinforces that interpretation. An individual right to have guns never made any sense in the context of the Constitution as a whole or the actual text.
I agree that the law in this area is a mess, but disagree completely as to the reason. The reason it is a mess is that even SCOTUS does not wish to give "shall not be infringed" an honest reading. They will give the language the most tepid reading they can possibly get away with.
Honestly, I would not have minded even Miller that much if it were then implemented in an honest manner, that civilian ownership of militarily useful arms is presumptively protected.
Republicans seem allergic to the words "A well regulated".
Which refer to the militia, while the right is a right of the people.
Seriously, that 'well regulated' argument has been beaten into the ground, you're just going through the motions here.
Democrat Party Monarchists like Molly are allergic to armed citizens.
Not seeing the Monarchism.
It's not specifically monarchism, of course. Just authoritarianism in general. All flavors of authoritarians are nervous about the public being armed, because it means that it's dangerous to piss the public off too much, it puts hard limits on what you can get away with doing.
I don't think it's self evident that danger of assassination or revolution is what keeps our politics on track.
Funny, I can't find any legislative achievements by JFK after 11-22-1963 (OK, and not many before that either)
It's part of what keeps it on track, but it's primarily a fallback position if democracy and the courts aren't enough to get the job done. To quote Joseph Story's Commentaries:
" The importance of this article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace, both from the enormous expenses, with which they are attended, and the facile means, which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them. And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burthens, to be rid of all regulations. How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights.
§ 1891. A similar provision in favour of protestants (for to them it is confined) is to be found in the bill of rights of 1688, it being declared, "that the subjects, which are protestants, may have arms for their defence suitable to their condition, and as allowed by law." But under various pretences the effect of this provision has been greatly narrowed; and it is at present in England more nominal than real, as a defensive privilege."
Gun control is, precisely, those sorts of "various pretences", intended to render the right nominal rather than real.
This is a category error.
You have a pragmatic/sociological thesis.
Your evidence has a relevance issue, coming from a legal commentary from before the Civil War, and well before the modern military.
Both the practicalities, and our society have changed in really fundamental ways since 1833.
I might buy it as a Constitutional argument, but in this case that's not the argument you're making.
Yes - lots of things have changed since 1833. That is why there is an amendment process. Until an amendment is ratified, you have to interpret a statute or constitutional provision based on the what the drafters meant at the time of the adoption of the statute or constitutional amendment, not based on what you would like it to mean today.
If I'm understanding your argument correctly, that we now have standing armies renders the need for militias obsolete and therefore "shall not be infringed" can be discarded?
At this particular juncture, I'd think the logic of, "which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people" would have some cachet.
As to the lack of constitutional argument in Brett's post, does that matter? It's not like he hasn't made such arguments regularly...
No - nothing about militias. Nothing about the contours of the 2A as a right. No shall not be infringed. No militia. None of that.
The thesis on the table is: "danger of assassination or revolution is what keeps our politics on track."
It's not a constitutional issue, it's not one about the society of America in the 1700s or even 1800s. It's one about American politics and society today and how much our civil society requires that politicians aren't tyrannical due to fear of being murdered.
I don't think it does.
"The thesis on the table is: "danger of assassination or revolution is what keeps our politics on track.""
"I don't think it does."
You've made the category error here: I'm an originalist, legally. I don't give a bucket of warm piss if somebody thinks the original justification for the 2nd amendment is no longer valid. Was never valid.
The 2nd amendment's preface could have read, "It being necessary to defend against flying spaghetti monsters," and for legal purposes, the necessity of defense against flying spaghetti monsters would be beyond questioning, an absolutely mandatory premise of constitutional reasoning, because it would be written into our highest law, which all public officials swear an oath to uphold. Even the parts they don't like!
Your other obvious mistake is thinking that your conviction that the danger of assassination or revolution doesn't do squat to keep our politics on track is universal or unquestionable. People widely disagree with you, which is a big part of why you can't repeal the 2nd amendment!
The moment anybody tries disarming Americans, a rather large portion of the population immediately conclude that they intend to eventually get around to that going off the tracks bit, and that not being disarmed has just become MORE important.
This isn’t an originalist question. Or a legal one.
You are wrapped so tight in this you need all gun things to be maximally true for your side.
You can have a full 2A without the whole politicians in this day and age gotta live in fear thing.
You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with Joseph Story, who I quoted above. You're arguing with the founding fathers, too.
Now, maybe you think their motivation for adopting the 2nd amendment was stupid, or became obsolete, but it remains what it is: So that the population can resort to violence against the government in extremity.
And enough people take this as the actual justification for the 2nd amendment that any effort to disarm people automatically generates opposition because we will presume the purpose of disarming us so so that we CAN'T resort to violence if oppressed.
And it's going to have that effect even if you don't like our reasoning.
I'm not arguing about the Founders. Because I'm not arguing about what was in their heads, nor about the 1700s or 1800s.
I'm also not arguing with Story, who was not trying to predict 200 years in the future. [Though your appeal to authority is noted. That's a fallacy, Brett!]
You keep arguing some other thing even when I've said what the thesis is and is not a number of times now.
It's like your facts and your law and your history and your modern day observations are all tangled up reinforcing one another and you cannot tell one from the other.
Which says quite a bit about how you arrived at all of them. If everything is bent to serve your worldview, then it's all kinda the same gumbo.
"So that the population can resort to violence against the government in extremity" is axiomatic to you, it seems. There can be no examination of it's practicability or applicability.
That's weak thinking.
The People can not be divorced from their Constitution. Efforts to divide, label, and reduce Citizens into fragments so as to limit their powers is repugnant and anti-American.
Technology has changed greatly since 1833, but not the fundamentals and structure of our systems of government. No doubt usurpations exist and to them repair is called for.
A constitutional argument is:
as long as governments operate via coercion, then arms are required for the People to counter balance any excesses when other means to address grievances grossly fail. The counter balance is not to be taken lightly, but is a basic duty of a free people to remain so when they determine the need arises. Read the Declaration !
Given the Left's orgasmic adoration of Barak "I have a pen and a phone" Obama, the Monarchism is obvious to all but the purposefully obtuse.
But Obama? In TYoOL 2025?
Haha take the L it’s less shameful.
Take a look in the mirror, loser.
LOL
It's always Year Zero for these losers.
Obama wasn't a king to anyone, especially given the current baseline.
Yep. Comedy Gold!
I'll concern myself with the current level of tyranny when this President starts murdering American citizens like his Majesty, King Barack, The First of His Name.
BHO is the only president in history to order the death of American citizens without indictment, arraignment, trial, conviction, or sentencing by a judge/jury or Courts Martial.
Until DJT matches that, any accusation of tyranny is laughable on its face.
I don't believe you actually care.
You've tailored an argument so finely, it's only purpose is to defend Trump, not to explicate an actual belief you have.
Well, you may have it *now*. Cults do be like that.
"well-regulated" doesn't mean "constrained by numerous detailed rules"
I like the reaction I get from would be gun grabbers when I point out that the only reason the Court didn't find in Miller's favor is that no one brought it to the Court's attention that a short barrelled shotgun was appropriate for military use.
After all, the Court could have much more easily dismissed the matter without making a "judgement call" on a firearm by firearm basis by declaring that the Second Amendment was a "collective right of the state" rather than an individual right. That they did not is telling.
Miller makes mush of lower court's opinions that proclaim that a firearm or accessory can be banned "because it only has military use". When I point that out, silence often follows while the gun grabber resorts to arguments like "oh, won't someone think of the children?".
It is also telling that the Court did not based its ruling on the fact that the Petitioners were not militia members. The focus was on the weapon.
The Court's holding (which I think was wrong, but here we are) was that because it was presented with no information that a short barreled shotgun had any "reasonable relationship" with a militia, then it was not protected by the 2A.
"With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces [the militia], the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view."
It would seem then that clearly an M-16 is a protected weapon per Miller and even a short barreled shotgun could be protected if a Petitioner made a better record.
It would also seem that knives, stun guns, and many if not most handguns would not be covered. Nobody is going for that tradeoff. Miller should have been directly overruled by Heller. It simply doesn't take Miller seriously except to pluck out the in common use test:
"The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. "A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline." And further, that ordinarily, when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."
To pull this out of Miller was simply results oriented. Of course a militia member was not EXPECTED to own unusual or exotic weapons. But it doesn't follow that because of this that those weapons can be affirmatively prohibited, especially when done for the express purpose of making them uncommon. It fails the rational basis test for the government to want a less effective militia to ban the weapons that would, if allowed to be in common use, permit a more effective fighting force.
If someone had an unusually powerful weapon, that would be a bonus for the militia, not a reason to ban it.
wvattorney13, is this because they’re not considered weapons useful for “military” purposes?
If so, depending on granularity (action type, brand, model, etc.), most if not all handguns have military origin or use.
Both revolvers and semiautomatic pistols have a long military history, as do brands such as Colt, S&W, Glock, Sig Sauer, FN, CZ (and many others).
You have to remember that Miller was heard after "The switch in time that saved Nine". The Court had responded to FDR's packing attempt by largely abandoning all efforts to enforce the Constitution against his initiatives.
It was thus a given that the NFA was going to be upheld, the only question was the reasoning employed.
Thanks to the posture of the case, a trial in abstentia with only the government arguing, the Court was able to do that on the lightest, least damaging basis imaginable: "Nobody has put us on judicial notice of this fact we're all personally aware of."
If Miller had actually been represented, and by somebody capable, the Court would have been forced to comprehensively reject every argument in favor of an individual right, and we'd have been totally hosed in terms of the precedents set. As it was we dodged a bullet.
Of course, after Miller the Court stopped taking 2nd amendment cases for, what, 68 years? Every single time one of the parties so much as mentioned the 2nd amendment, the Court refused cert without comment. That's why everyone was shocked when the Court actually TOOK the Heller case.
And during that time the lower courts played a game of Telephone with the Miller decision turning it into the comprehensive rejection of individual rights that the Court had refrained from delivering. But the Supreme court level precedent still wasn't bad.
I agree. Which is why I'm not completely upset over Miller. As you said, probably the best we could have hoped for.
But Heller could have overruled it, or at least not blindly followed it or created a huge area of gun law (the in common use test) out of a piece of 18th century general description.
The bootstrapping of the "in common use" test is uncommonly bad. It would be as if you poured over the history of juries and found one commentator at one time saying that juries brought the common sense of the community to bear in trials. And then used that one statement as support for a law saying that nobody with a professional degree could serve on a jury because professionals have "uncommon" sense.
Only people with 97-103 IQs can serve on juries.
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the State to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Huh. Not like my copy. MollyGodiva is special.
2A case law is a mess primarily because a lot of judges don't want to admit what the 2A says. The 2A is not about the right of states to have militias; like the rest of the Bill of Rights, it is primarily about individual rights.
Precisely. There was a fad in legal circles in the middle of the 20th century to deny that it actually meant what it said, which led to some nasty lower court precedents, and the Supreme court simply avoiding the whole topic for decades.
But the Court has been very clear about this point in United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, and then again in Heller:
"That text, by contrast with the Fifth and Sixth Amendments, extends its reach only to "the people." Contrary to the suggestion of amici curiae that the Framers used this phrase "simply to avoid [an] awkward rhetorical redundancy," Brief for American Civil Liberties Union as Amici Curiae et al. 12, n. 4, "the people" seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. The Preamble declares that the Constitution is ordained and established by "the People of the United States." The Second Amendment protects "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms," and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments provide that certain rights and powers are retained by and reserved to "the people." See also U.S. Const., Amdt. 1, ("Congress shall make no law . . . abridging . . . the right of the people peaceably to assemble"); Art. I, § 2, cl. 1 ("The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States") (emphasis added). While this textual exegesis is by no means conclusive, it suggests that "the people" protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community."
It's the sustained position of the Supreme court that the phrase, "right of the People" always and everywhere refers to a right of the American people as individuals, not collectively, and not some government defined subset of the People, either.
In Heller, the majority quoted that language, and then added,
"This contrasts markedly with the phrase “the militia” in the prefatory clause. As we will describe below, the “militia” in colonial America consisted of a subset of “the people”—those who were male, able bodied, and within a certain age range. Reading the Second Amendment as protecting only the right to “keep and bear Arms” in an organized militia therefore fits poorly with the operative clause’s description of the holder of that right as “the people.”
We start therefore with a strong presumption that the Second Amendment right is exercised individually and belongs to all Americans."
fwiw - there was considerable historical writings on the "common defence ", There is also considerable historical writings on the "common defence" and "self defence" , though much less than the former. There was reasonable amount of historical writings on "self defence"
There was also a proposal during the senate debate to add "the common defence" to 2A which was voted down.
It would be inane to have one of amendments in the Bill of Rights to limit a right to a time when the federal government gives the citizen permission.
MollyGodiva 9 hours ago
" An individual right to have guns never made any sense in the context of the Constitution as a whole or the actual text."
WTF ? an amendment to deny a right is in the bill of rights? please explain
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the prefatory subordinate clause, shall be misinterpreted to be the main thrust of this Amendment.
MP - I am not sure its just a prefatory subordinate clause. Given the extensive historical writings on the common defence and the considerable historical writings on the common defence and self defence, Its more logical that 2a protects two rights, 1 - the right of the people to form militias for the common defence and 2 the individual right for self defence.
The militia clause serves no purpose if 2a speaks only of the individual right for self defense, so what is the purpose of the militia clause. On the pro gun control side, an amendment limiting a right to only when given permission (ie when serving in the militia) is inane.
It's an individual right to protect the militia: You raise a militia from the general population who already have arms they know how to use. So if the general population can't be disarmed under any pretext, you can always raise a militia in an emergency even if the government wants it to be impossible.
" On the pro gun control side, an amendment limiting a right to only when given permission (ie when serving in the militia) is inane."
What it ignores is that everyone is always "serving in the militia." If you are plumber, doctor, or accountant, if bad stuff happens in your neighborhood, at the founding you were expected to bring your gun and do community militia duty to help put down whatever bad stuff was happening. A law that restricts your ability to own/carry a gun prevents you (and others) from being able to form that militia.
To your point, people like to make the inverse of that true. If you are an old man or a meek woman, then you aren't militia material, the argument goes, so therefore you can be disarmed. Nothing in the history suggests that.
"The right to keep and bear arms" was assumed by the 2A and restated for the purposes of effective militias. This limited statement of purpose does not suggest that all other purposes attached to the right are now open to be chipped away. That's a classic logical fallacy. If someone notes that reading the Bible is good for personal morality, nothing in that statement suggests that people should not read other books as well.
One way to look at the prefatory subordinate clause is that it, like the Miller court suggested in 1939, sets a minimum threshold for protected arms: namely those that are useful for use in a militia.
Most useful, of course, would be select fire assault rifles, especially of the AR-15/M16/M4 Carbine type. These are the rifles that the military veterans of the last 60 years have been trained to utilize, and who would, because of their military training be the core of any less formal militia.
Not going to happen anytime soon, despite how compelling the logic. Miller came about because of the NFA, which, in turn was a result of the only ones rich enough to own machine guns (Thompson’s, BARs, etc) were crooks and the government, and the country had spent years entertained, and repelled, by their gun battles. Well, excluding a small number of very costly machine guns legally in the hands of the public, the fully automatic weapons we are seeing today are little different - military weapons smuggled in along with drugs and people, and illegal conversions. Almost entirely in the hands of violent criminals. Not a good time to be fiddling with Miller helping keep machine guns out of criminal hands.
You are wrong.
The British attempted to disarm militias by disarming individuals.
So in order the protect the militias, the constitution protects the bearing of arms by individuals.
The fight in Concord commonly considered to being the beginning of the No-King rebellion was precipitated by an attempt by the government to take firearms ammo (ball and powder) away from the lawful owners.
The Constitution, and bill of rights, was written to prevent that particular lunacy from happening again.
And, yet, in the end, the now illegal (since MA was by then under military rule) militias were able to send the British troops in flight back to Boston, by mustering and rallying small (by then illegal) militias across MA and by the next day, from neighboring colonies, all using their personally owned firearms.
Stephen Halbrook could make an even exchange of a nine dollar bill with three dollar bills. People who care about this case should listen to the oral argument and come to their own conclusions. The mp3 of the oral argument is at this link -> https://www2.ca3.uscourts.gov/oralargument/audio/24-2415_EtAl_AssnNJRiflePostolClubsv.AttyGenNJ_EnBanc.mp3
Ironic (dontcha think) that the case was heard in a building in Filthydelphia PA, protected by Security Guards armed with the very weapons New Jersey Citizens aren't allowed to legally own.
Sidebar,
Did anyone ever find out what model gun Common-Law owns??? I get it, she's married to a Domestic Violator, she might need it.
Frank
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Why is the preface ignored now?
It used to be that "everyone" was saying this only applied to militia, and not individuals. Now "everyone" is only looking at self-defense, and ignoring the first part.
An AR-15, like all other scary icky guns, would be useful to a militia member who answered the call. Large capacity magazines as well. It be effective in his unit the citizen must have the ability to maintain proficiency, so regular practice, meaning access to ammunition, should not be infringed with taxes.
So their keeping and bearing are protected from government infringement.
"well-regulated" doesn't mean what modern regulators think it means either.
Switzerland has the highest rate of Gun Ownership in Europe, with "Militia" members armed with Select Fire (i.e. "Machinegun" a real one) SIG 550 Assault Rifles (actual Assault Rifles, unlike the AR-15 and it's variants)
That they keep at home, not in some inaccessible Armory.
They're also the only European Country that's never been invaded. (OK, the Alps helps)
Frank
Actually, M16s and M4 carbines are (historically) select fire AR-15 variants.
Where this debate always gets into the weeds is that people are arguing over what applies to a militia and what applies to individuals. But that ignores the history.
A militia IS a group of individuals from the community, not professional soldiers. If you infringe on the right of the people to keep and bear arms, you a fortiori impair the effectiveness of a militia because people can no longer bring their own arms to form militias in the first place.
To say that guns should only be for the military is endorsing a standing army and eliminating a militia.
wvattorney13 1 hour ago
"A militia IS a group of individuals from the community"
That basically agrees with the historical writings on the "common defence"
For those open to a radical, rationale of the Preamble to the 2nd Amendment (including possibly: mollygodiva and longtobefree) -
"... the Second Amendment begins by apologizing for, “a well regulated Militia being, necessary to the security of a free State,” and concludes by promising, as a remedy for the dangers of wayward militias, “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” ..." [excerpt from Abstract. https://scholarship.law.uwyo.edu/wlr/vol25/iss1/7/ ]
In brief:
. consider that all the other first ten amendments placed restrictions on the then new federal government, reserving Rights and Powers not delegated to the People or the then yet sovereign states. As well;
. the framers of the Constitution were keenly aware that the People had just wrestled their freedom from a government which breached the most fundamental of rights won by the people of the English monarch. Last;
. among those restrictions on the new federal government was a prohibition against a standing army; thus the militia if called would be under the authority and command of the state and / or federal government.
Conclusion: The preamble highlights that the militia as an extension of the government was nothing more than another facet of that "necessary evil".
The People and the individuals which comprised the People needed to be assured that they could always protect themselves from their "necessary evil".
"[S]hall not be infringed" is an Absolute Restriction on the supposed government "of, by and for the People".
Far too simple, to be believable. ... But, Occam's razor ... And, now what should we do with all those obsolete, great, licensed, legal minds ?
The Arab-Israel debate pales in comparison, maybe.
Weapons and death verses life and protection.
"There is no such thing as a dangerous weapon. There are only dangerous men." -- Fleet Sargent Zim, Mobile Infantry, in Robert Heinlein's novel Starship Troopers.