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Justice Gorsuch Argues that the Seventh Amendment Should Apply to the States
From today's opinion by Justice Gorsuch respecting the denial of certiorari in Thomas v. Humboldt County:
In Minneapolis & St. Louis R. Co. v. Bombolis (1916), this Court held that the Seventh Amendment's civil jury trial right is not enforceable against the States. Petitioners ask us to reconsider that decision. But a number of "vehicle" problems make it unlikely that we could do so in this case. Accordingly, I agree with the Court's decision to deny review. At the same time, I do not doubt that Bombolis warrants a second look.
As petitioners observe, Bombolis is something of a relic. There, the Court dismissed as "strange" the notion that the Seventh Amendment—or, for that matter, any of the Bill of Rights—might be enforceable against the States. But what once might have seemed strange almost goes without saying today. In the years since Bombolis, this Court has "shed any reluctance" about the idea that the Fourteenth Amendment "incorporate[s]" against the States many of the liberties enshrined in the Bill of Rights.
To be sure, debates exist around the edges. There are, for example, those who hold that the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates provisions of the Bill of Rights through its Due Process Clause, while others believe that the Privileges or Immunities Clause supplies the truer source of authority for the job. Similarly, some have argued that the Fourteenth Amendment selectively incorporates only fundamental or deeply rooted aspects of the Bill of Rights, while others have suggested that, under that test or any other, the Fourteenth Amendment renders all of the first eight Amendments enforceable against the States. Compare Wolf v. Colorado (1949) (overruled by Mapp v. Ohio (1961)), with Adamson v. California (1947) (Black, J., dissenting).
But whatever one's position on matters like those, it is hard to imagine how the Seventh Amendment might not be among those rights the Fourteenth Amendment secures against the States. Under this Court's contemporary case law, States must respect the First Amendment's Establishment Clause, the Second Amendment's right to bear arms, the Fifth Amendment's protections against self-incrimination and its Takings Clause, the Eighth Amendment's Excessive Fines Clause; the list goes on. On what account should the Seventh Amendment be treated differently?
Surely, those who founded our Nation considered the right to trial by jury a fundamental part of their birthright. So much so that they cited its deprivation at the hands of colonial authorities as one of the reasons for breaking ties with England. After the Revolution, too, the new States promptly "restored the institution … to its prior prominence." "Indeed, [t]he right to trial by jury was probably the only one universally secured by the first American state constitutions." If the Federalists and Anti-Federalists disagreed about anything when it came to the civil jury trial right, it may have only been about whether the right was "the most important of all individual rights, or simply one of the most important rights." K. Klein, The Myth of How to Interpret the Seventh Amendment Right to a Civil Jury Trial, 53 Ohio St. L. J. 1005, 1010 (1992) (emphasis in original).
Nor had much changed by the time of the Fourteenth Amendment's adoption. The right to a civil jury trial remained so deeply rooted that perhaps 97% of Americans at the time lived in States that guaranteed the right. See S. Calabresi & S. Agudo, Individual Rights Under State Constitutions When the Fourteenth Amendment Was Ratified in 1868, 87 Texas L. Rev. 7, 116 (2008). In fact, the civil jury trial right may have enjoyed even more robust protection in American States than various other rights this Court has deemed fit for incorporation[:] … 35 out of 37 States expressly forbade excessive fines at the time of the Fourteenth Amendment's adoption[;] … 22 of the 37 States "explicitly protected the right to keep and bear arms" in 1868.
That Bombolis lingers on the books not only leaves our law misshapen, it subjects ordinary Americans to a two-tiered system of justice. Take just one example. When a federal agency accuses someone of fraud and seeks civil penalties, the Seventh Amendment guarantees that individual the right to have the case heard by a jury of his peers—not by other agency officials who work side by side with those bringing the charges. But, thanks to Bombolis, state and local agencies pursuing similar charges and similar relief sometimes claim that they are free to dispense with the hassle of proving their case to a jury. For those in the government's crosshairs, that difference is no costless affair. No less than at the founding, civil juries today play a critical role in checking governmental overreach, holding public officials accountable, and ensuring a fair hearing for those who come before our courts.
Bombolis may survive today, but this Court should confront its Seventh Amendment holding soon. A right "'of such importance,'" one that "'occupies so firm a place in our history,'" deserves no less.
At this point, all the Bill of Rights has been applied via the Fourteenth Amendment to state and local governments, except that there are old precedents still concluding that the Fifth Amendment Grand Jury Trial Clause and the Seventh Amendment don't thus apply (and the Court has never considered the question as to the Third Amendment).
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Part of this makes sense, and part of it doesn't.
The argument that the 14th Amendment incorporates all eight amendments against the states seems perfectly coherent.
But if that's not the position you're going to take, it does seem like you'd have to do some work to argue that civil jury trials fit the tests that have previously been set out. Because arguably civil jury trials are themselves a relic, something that has been abolished in pretty much every common law country except the United States, where it mostly survives because it was included in the Bill of Rights 240 years ago, not because anyone thinks it's a good idea to have juries in rural Texas decide highly technical patent cases.
not because anyone thinks it's a good idea to have juries in rural Texas decide highly technical patent cases.
Anyone? I believe exactly 50% of the parties involved in those rural Texas patent cases think it's an excellent idea and that is precisely why they filed there.
Ironically, it has nothing to do with a jury, as ascientific yokels who will believe a testimonial over a stack of scientific papers, further manipulated by experts trained in such manipulation, can be found anywhere. It's more about finding judges amenable, not juries.
I fail to see how increasing the power of these already forum-shopped judges by doing away with the juries helps the situation.
Certainly, I don't disagree at all. Just pointing out that Martinned is not being accurate.
What would be wrong with education/experience requirements for jurors in "highly technical" cases?
If we're approaching the situation from a "mend it, don't end it" perspective.
I am not an expert on rural Texas, but I think if you look, you could find intelligent people, just as you could in the wilds of New York city.
Perhaps if the patent holders can't explain the idea to juries, the idea is not worth patenting. Patents are generally described as obtusely as possible. Perhaps that needs to be rectified.
35 U.S.C. §112(a) requires the opposite (emphasis added):
If patent trial jurors fail because they can't understand the material maybe a better solution is to also draw them from the pool "skilled in the art".
That requirement is a joke. I've worked with engineers who had patents, and they laughed that the company lawyers were the ones who thought the ideas worth patenting, which was precisely why the lawyers wrote them up in such obfuscating language. From the few I've actually looked up, and from the expensive court patent battles I've read of, I'd be surprised if even one out of a hundred is not obvious to those skilled in the arts. One article I read many years ago thought to justify steel patents which fiddled with the different amounts of special elements, as if they weren't just the results of massive trial and error and they never patented the ones that made no difference.
In my experience the drafters are not trying to obfuscate but rather to write the broadest possible claims they can browbeat an examiner into accepting. And yes, sometimes the examiner passes claims that are astonishingly broad to the point where they borderline claim a problem rather than a solution, but that is a separate matter from whether a juror can understand the issues.
I'm not sure what your complaint about the steel patents is. "Composition of matter" is explicitly called out as patentable subject matter in the statute. Of course they are still required to be novel and useful, added justification for not wasting effort patenting recipes that fail. And as for trial and error, why would that matter? Should Thomas Edison's carbonized filament light bulb not be patented because he tried so many other things that didn't work?
Yup. In fact, the main reason for having patents at all is to incentivize the perspiration part of invention. The massive effort needed to try hundreds of alloys to find a good one is exactly the thing that needs protection from people just jumping in and taking advantage of your investment of time and money.
Some rando having an "aha" moment out on the sidewalk didn't make any investment and he would have had it with or without a patent system. But somehow the general public has this idea that patents are to reward inspiration rather than perspiration.
That's exactly the analogy I was going to use!
This is absolutely true, and I would say it about my own patents. Maybe not super obvious, and maybe not the first thing an engineer would come up with. But certainly nothing an engineer in the area would find astonishing or gobsmacking.
The problem is, if we don't patent it, someone else will, and then we're locked out of using our own design while it gets lawyered for years.
In a case I was involved in at my last job, we DID patent it, and then some rat bastards who we'd have been competing with got an overseas patent on it, and then pointed out to us that THEIR lawyers were on retainer, it didn't cost them anything to use them. So maybe we wanted to just sell them our manufacturing capacity and US patent, and not go broke from legal expenses, since they could keep us fighting in court for years?
After a legal consultation and a lot of swearing my boss caved.
Cable attachment for a lumbar support
They got my side bolster patent as part of the deal, too:
Power adjustable side bolster
A few years later my employer went under, the lumbar support business would have easily been enough to keep us in the green.
And, yeah, we'd sweated blood getting that product ready to go to market.
I should add that they rubbed salt in the wound by NOT USING our superior product!
Nice work.
Not to rub more salt in your wound, but for me it once went spectacularly in the other direction. I had a patent that deep down I thought wasn't going to work all that well, without more time and effort than I was willing to put in.
Then out of the blue some patent-flipping business (lots of money, no products or facilities) offered me and my co-inventor six figures in cash. Each. Yes!
Cool, wish that had happened to me some time.
As a tooling engineer I have very few patents; As my inventions are usually relating to how to manufacture a product, and can't be worked out very easily from examining the end product, my employers have usually maintained them as proprietary. The few I did get were patents for products, not manufacturing techniques.
Speaking as an engineer, that requirement is often observed in the breech; I've seen way too many patents that were granted where nobody really knew how to make the thing invented, because they read more like a cheesy SF short story summary than an actual patent.
Yeah, Salvador, I'm talking about you. But, geeze, I WISH it was only him.
SGT, that's an excellent point.
It's worth remembering the etymology here: patere means "to lay open for public inspection". The inventor should be describing his invention so as to make it patently clear to anyone reading it.
Civil trials are not a "relic" in the United States, which is a significant thing when applying the U.S. Constitution.
There is still quite a lot of support for juries to decide civil issues, including matters that involve some expertise. I think urban NYC can also decide whatever rural Texans stereotypically know about.
A single judge often has to be a general practitioner, while a jury provides a chance to have a diverse range of views and expertise.
" Similarly, some have argued that the Fourteenth Amendment selectively incorporates only fundamental or deeply rooted aspects of the Bill of Rights, "
Right, and you know how you can tell if a right was fundamental, and deeply rooted?
They bothered writing it down and ratifying it as part of the Bill of Rights!
Fine.
Explain gun control.
Explain 'asset forfeiture'.
What's to explain? The Court decided to allow parts of the Bill of Rights to be violated.
And of course, the argument was not that these were rights. That was agreed. The argument was whether to list them or not. If you list them, future weasels would claim they were the only rights. But if you didn't, future weasels would claim they were never really rights at all.
Of course, both were right. The only constant: weaselry!
One of the arguments by the Federalists against the Bill of Rights was just what happened, that the unenumerated rights got sidelined. The 9th Amendment has been no help. The clearest example is that the unenumerated right to an abortion got more protection than the right to keep and bear arms.
One argument I saw in these comments years ago, for why slander and libel laws don't violate the First Amendment, is that "freedom of speech" and "freedom of the press" are terms of art that common law always understood as now allowing libel and slander; thus "freedom of ..." is being faithfully observed. The same with the right to keep and bear arms: it was always understood to not include X, Y, and Z.
Of course, in all such cases, there has never been an exact list of exceptions. They can only be determined long after the fact.
Sure, but if you look at the stunts the Federalists tried after the Constitution was in force, it seems evident that their real objection to a Bill of Rights was that it would stop them from doing things they actually DID want to do.
Denying rights that weren't enumerated, in the teeth of the 9th amendment, was just a fallback after having been forced to agree to a Bill of Rights...
seems evident that their real objection
When telepathy goes historical!
Brett has found the Federalists were in bad faith, and thus their arguments about the Constitution may be ignored.
Gotta love that originalism!
That's not entirely accurate. The Bill of Rights was a protection against the federal government. Several things, established churches being the main one, were things that the founders did not want the federal government to do but were perfectly fine with state governments doing.
It turns the founding original intent on its head to declare that now the states are bound by things that they specifically reserved to themselves.
The First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law", expressly limiting it to a federal prohibition. The Second Amendment says "shall not be infringed" and should have applied to the states from the beginning. The Amendments without either are probably confusing on purpose, but ought to have been treated as the Second ought to have been treated, since they say only "No person shall be", "shall not be violated", "the accused shall enjoy", and so on.
I think that's right, but I'd add that this was exactly what the writers and ratifiers of the 14th amendment intended.
Usually it's Thomas who writes alone to say century old settled precedent deserves a beating.
Why would a Black judge be skeptical of precedents issued by all-White Court in the eras of slavery or Jim Crow?
Nice.
The only flaw in your reasoning is they don't see Thomas as "authentically black".
He's only skeptical of them if they disagree with the ideologically conservative outcome he wants to reach. Doesn't seem to have much to do with race.
Reminds me of a corny joke. A man was shot with a starter's pistol and beaten by a relay baton. Police think the crime was race-related.
Leftist opponents of Thomas can get away with saying stuff which they would call racist if a rightist said them.
Eg, demeaning racial epithets, or "corny" jokes about race-related crimes.
Actually, Slaughterhouse is a bit older than 100 years, but it's a precedent that does deserve a beating.
Amen.
So much legal/mental masturbation could have been avoided by a plain reading of the privileges and immunities clause -- it answers the question of whether federal rights are enforceable against the states.
"Court dismissed as "strange" the notion that the Seventh Amendment—or, for that matter, any of the Bill of Rights—might be enforceable against the States"
Yes, the court got it right back then. Maybe an originalist should go back to the correct interpretation. Just a thought.
I wonder if you'd mind elaborating a bit on your view. I suspect I disagree, but I don't know your argument well enough to say.
For reference, I don't think the Bill of Rights were originally enforceable against the states. However, I do think that was the intent (and meaning) of the 14th Amendment, when it guaranteed privileges and immunities. As the amendment, kind of by definition, changes the original constitution, I think this is the one that matters for originalism.
Anyway, looking forward to a better explanation of your position.
His position is that this (incorporation) was not, in fact, the intent and meaning of the 14th amendment.
This was the prevailing view at the time and for 60-70+ years thereafter.
Probably the best book to read about this is here: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0865971447/reasonmagazinea-20/
FWIW, I think Bob and Raoul Berger have the better end of the argument, though there is a fair bit of ambiguity and inconsistency in the contemporary statements/sources.
Here's some more links that may be of interest.
https://scholarship.law.nd.edu/ndlr/vol99/iss1/6/
https://lawliberty.org/classic/the-coming-resurrection-of-raoul-berger-a-remembrance-of-government-by-judiciary/
Thomas' footnote in his McDonald concurring mentioned the concept that the bill of rights was incorporated against the states at ratification (1783? or so), under the theory that the states were a party to constitution. Granted it is a minority position, though with some merit, limited of course to the volume of historical discussions that the purpose of the bill of rights was to limit the power of the new federal government.
The First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law". The Second Amendment says "shall not be infringed. There was a difference in 1791. The 14th Amendment did not treat them differently in 1866.
To which footnote do you refer?
oops - not a footnote but 2-3 paragraphs toward the end of his concurring opinion
a partial quote from that discussion:
".... Other state courts adopted similar positions with respect to the right to keep and bear arms and other enumerated rights.[Footnote 16] Some courts even suggested that the protections in the Bill of Rights were legally enforceable against the States, Barron notwithstanding.[Footnote 17] A prominent treatise of the era took the same position. W. Rawle, A View of the Constitution of the United States of America 124–125 (2d ed. 1829) (reprint 2009) (arguing that certain of the first eight Amendments “appl[y] to the state legislatures” because those Amendments “form parts of the declared rights of the people, of which neither the state powers nor those of the Union can ever deprive them”); id., at 125–126 (describing the Second Amendment “right of the people to keep and bear arms” as “a restraint on both” Congress and the States); see also...."
fwiw the snippet is only a small piece of the commentary on school of thought that the bill of rights was incorporated against the states at ratification. Again, it wasnt the prevailing view , yet it continued as a valid school of thought even after barron v baltimore
Since he's getting all fundamentalist about the 7th Amendment (and that's a good thing), how about that $20 limit?
As always IANAL, but I look up the jurisdiction for US District courts and it says something about $75,000 or more. So how do I get my jury trial for my $30 claim against FedEx?
My state's courts will let you take your $30 claim to a jury. A defendant in small claims court can demand a jury trial and have the case moved to the regular trial court.
And while you're quizzing him about that $20, you might ask him if he knows what the word "all" means...
What "all" are you referring to? The Seventh Amendment does not include that word.
That "all" in the 6th amendment, of course.
I could see a compromise that would preserve the "all":
If they don't want to give a jury trial for lesser stuff, they can stop calling such things "crimes" and instead call them taxable offenses or something like that. The implications would be:
- Monetary assessment only.
- No criminal record or other legal disability, no matter how many times you do it.
- If you don't pay, the only enforcement mechanisms are those for debts and neglected taxes.
- Under no circumstances does it lead to an arrest or incarceration, either at the time of discovery or at the time of "conviction". Except it needs to be called something other than a conviction, because it's not a crime.
- Since it's a tax, the "rates" need to originate with the US House of Representatives. Not the senate, not the president, not an executive order, not some court.
Does it say $20 US? It could be the equivalent value of 20 Spanish gold coins today.
Maybe it's bitcoin?
At the time the Constitution was written, the US "Dollar" WAS interchangeable with the Spanish coin. The US silver dollar's weight was determined by averaging the weight of a bunch of Spanish dollars.
There are several defensible approaches to a modern interpretation of that $20, but the Court took the least defensible approach: Just blowing it off.
Sorry Brett, I typed my below comment before reading yours, but I think we’re saying the same thing.
If I remember my history, “dollar” at the time referred to a Spanish coin that had had a consistent amount of gold for the past few hundred years. The First Congress defined the US Dollar to have the same amount of gold at around the same time it passed the 7th amendment, but of course since then it has allowed the value to fluctuate.
It’s not out of the realm of possibility that “dollar” in the 7th amendment refers to a quantity of gold.
My state passed a law in 1994 that made larceny above $1000 a felony.
If I steal $1500 today, can I argue that in 1994 dollars, I am under the limit because according to the inflation calculator, in 1994, $1000 was equal to $2,215.98 today?
I doubt it, because in 1994 the term “dollar” unambiguously referred to the US Dollar, and the US Dollar wasn’t explicitly defined in terms of a quantity of precious metal.
Neither of these was true in 1792.
Right, except that it was silver, not gold.
1) It's actually more than $75,000; exactly $75,000 won't cut it.
2) That's only for diversity cases. If you can find a federal question upon which to base federal jurisdiction, there's no amount-in-controversy threshold.
File in state court in a state that preserves such a right. Or find a federal question.
Nitpick: Find a common law federal question. If it is a statutory suit, then the 7A $20 limit is not applicable.
So you're telling me the $20 dollar limit is actually honored?
That would be one thing today to feel good about, if true.
No, he's just noting that the 7th amendment starts out, "In Suits at common law", so they're not technically violating it in statutory law suits, only the common law suits. Thus a nitpick.
They absolutely are violating it for the common law ones.
I'm curious, because I did a lengthy search last night and couldn't get a definite answer. Is it that only 0.0001% of suits are common law suits, due to statutes being passed to cover most subjects? Or did some federal court actually come out and say that $20 limit has been suspended? Or is everyone just waffling and refusing to make eye contact?
More the last, is my impression.
The real fireworks will come if it's seriously proposed to incorporate the Grand Jury clause. Many states have either abandoned grand juries or made them optional. Also, grand juries are not necessarily popular among defense lawyers, which deprives this part of the Bill of Rights of a natural constituency.
But as a matter of logic, I see no reason to incorporate the rest and not grand juries.
I don't see anything in the 7A about Grand Juries. The 5A requires one for "capital, or otherwise infamous" crimes, whatever that may mean. The Scotus ruled against incorporating it in Hurtado (1884).
Not sure if Gorsuch was thinking about this part...
I was referring to the clause you quoted, not the Seventh Amendment.
Civil juries were not added to Art. III in significant part because of the different rules among the states then in place.
Different jury rules for the number of criminal trial jurors, grand juries, and civil juries remain something that splits the states.
Unanimous juries were easier since there were only two outliers (both with equal protection concerns) along with Puerto Rico. This would be more complicated.
But if you incorporate civil juries, you should just go all the way. The Third Amendment is not incorporated but dicta in Griswold v. Connecticut suggests it should be, if the right case arises.
The concerns found in that amendment remain, especially if the text is applied broadly. Multiple wars had 3A concerns, including World War II (such as in places like Alaska).
The Third Amendment is not not incorporated, though. Unlike the 2A pre-McDonald, where there was actual caselaw saying "No," SCOTUS has never said the 3A wasn't. And some lower courts, including the Second Circuit, have said it is.
some lower courts, including the Second Circuit
What other court besides the Second (Englblom v. Carey) did?
SCOTUS has never said the 3A wasn't.
Yes, they never explicitly decided the question ("We never have decided whether the Third Amendment or the Eighth Amendment’s prohibition of excessive fines applies to the States through the Due Process Clause." McDonald v. City of Chicago).
[They decided the fines issue later, though, as I noted a long time ago here, they in dicta assumed it was incorporated before then.]
Alito also quoted an earlier case that noted:
While it was “possible that some of the personal rights safeguarded by the first eight Amendments against National action [might] also be safeguarded against state action,” the Court stated, this was “not because those rights are enumerated in the first eight Amendments.”
I think that implies the 3A as such wasn't incorporated, but since they never specifically decided a 3A case, it is somewhat academic.
Dunno; I have it in the back of my mind that there was a case out of Arizona (i.e., District Court), but I can't find it with a quick search.
The Third Amendment is not incorporated
Oh please god don't tell Gov. Greg Abbott. We need that extra bedroom open for when I start to snore.
Seems like there's a Fifth Amendment issue there, too.
Wouldn't the Fifth Amendment just mean he had to pay fair rent for lodging Rangers (the LEOs, not the baseball team) in my spare bedroom?
If Thomas is right, perhaps it is time to overrule Marbury v. Madison!
Since we're commenting about clauses in the Constitution that appear to have been blown off completely, could an expert comment on the bolded text below:
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;
I'm not asking what it meant in the 1780's. My question is, in modern constitutional interpretation, is there any situation at all where it matters whether or not the state legislature gave consent, or have the courts cancelled this one completely? Is there any conceivable case where a federal court would rule that the state legislature wasn't asked and therefore X.
You're right that they ignore that clause, but really the only implication is that you can still be prosecuted for state crimes on federal property that doesn't get the legislative permission, because the federal government's jurisdiction isn't "exclusive".
But what other part of the constitution gives the feds any jurisdiction to begin with? There's always the necessary and proper clause. But can I challenge some law about smoking in the post office on the basis that it's not a necessary part of having a post office, and is really just an excuse to usurp some local police powers? After all, they ran POs for more than a century with everyone smoking.
Of course just spitballing here. We all know the score.
Indeed, the idea that the 14th amendment "incorporated" any of the bill of rights against the states was considered a strange and bizarre notion for a long time, from the passage of the amendment and for some 60-70 years afterward. Until some judges "reinterpreted" things.
Your argument is plausible, since the 14th Amendment is vague about exactly what due process, privileges, and immunities it's referring to. And if they meant the BoR, (a) they could have said so, and (b) then why not all of it on day one after ratification.
But here's my question for you and other sharing the opinion: are you fine with the actual rights being incorporated, and you're merely objecting that the courts pulled it out of their ass? (That was my feeling about Roe.) Or are there actually things in the BoR that you think states but not the feds should be allowed to violate?
I'm first objecting to the courts making things up, yes. But also, I generally think it would be better for states to make their own decisions on things like flag burning and speech in schools, and really most things including bill of rights issues. Bad decisions in some states will be regrettable for sure, but they will also provide a contrast and an example, the "laboratory of the states" idea. On the other hand, to vest so much power in the hands of the federal judiciary to regulate intricate details of daily life across the nation is bad and short sighted and in a lot of ways, just plain silly. When you really think about it, it's just absurd that the residents of downtown San Francisco and the residents of backwoods Alabama have to be so closely tied together and hating each other over the (at times, IMO) rather whimsical and philosophical proclamations of a tiny body of supreme judges. That's the silly part. And short sighted because, keep in mind, the power to define the substance and contours of a right is the power to diminish that right down to nothing. Once some federal power has control over an issue and goes one way with it, it's hard to go back. Of course everyone just hopes that we have good people doing the right thing but that's not at all guaranteed and people disagree about what is right anyway. But there is a stubborn idea that constitutes the resistance here, it is something bound up with American exceptionalism, timeless imperialistic impulse, and a sort of puritan cultural universalism.
Unless you listened to the people who drafted it, like John Bingham.
"the idea that the 14th amendment "incorporated" any of the bill of rights against the states was considered a strange and bizarre notion for a long time,"
In fact, the idea that the 14th amendment incorporated amendments 1-8 (By way of the P&I clause!) was directly stated by Congress during the legislative debates of the amendment.
"Senator Jacob Howard, R-MI:
. . . It will be observed that this is a general prohibition upon all the States, as such, from abridging the privileges and immunities of the citizens of the United States. That is its first clause, and I regard it as very important. It also prohibits each one of the States from depriving any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, or denying to any person within the jurisdiction of the State the equal protection of its laws.
The first clause of this section relates to the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States as such, and as distinguished from all other persons not citizens of the United States. It is not, perhaps, very easy to define with accuracy what is meant by the expression, “citizen of the United States.” . . . A citizen of the United States is held by the courts to be a person who was born within the limits of the United States and subject to their laws. . . .
It would be a curious question to solve what are the privileges and immunities of citizens of each of the States in the several States. I do not propose to go at any length into that question at this time. . . . [I]t is certain the clause was inserted in the Constitution for some good purpose. . . . [W]e may gather some intimation of what probably will be the opinion of the judiciary by referring to a case adjudged many years ago in one of the circuit courts of the United States by Judge [Bushrod] Washington.4 . . . It is the case of Corfield vs. Coryell. . . . Judge Washington says: . . .
The inquiry is, what are the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States? We feel no hesitation in confining these expressions to those privileges and immunities which are in their nature fundamental, which belong of right to the citizens of all free Governments, and which have at all times been enjoyed by the citizens of the several States which compose this Union from the time of their becoming free, independent, and sovereign. What these fundamental principles are it would, perhaps, be more tedious than difficult to enumerate. They may, however, be all comprehended under the following general heads: protection by the Government, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the right to acquire and possess property of every kind, and to pursue and obtain happiness and safety, subject nevertheless to such restraints as the Government may justly prescribe for the general good of the whole. The right of a citizen of one State to pass through or to reside in any other State, for purposes of trade, agriculture, professional pursuits, or otherwise; to claim the benefit of the writ of habeas corpus; to institute and maintain notions of any kind in the courts of the State; to take, hold, and dispose of property, either real or personal, and an exemption from higher taxes or impositions than are paid by the other citizens of the State, may be mentioned as some of the particular privileges and immunities of citizens which are clearly embraced by the general description of privileges deemed to be fundamental, to which may be added the elective franchise, as regulated and established by the laws or constitution of the State in which it is to be exercised. . . .
Such is the character of the privileges and immunities spoken of in the second section of the fourth article of the Constitution. To these privileges and immunities, whatever they may be – for they are not and cannot be fully defined in their entire extent and precise nature – to these should be added the personal rights guaranteed and secured by the first eight amendments of the Constitution; such as the freedom of speech and of the press; the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances, a right appertaining to each and all the people; the right to keep and to bear arms; the right to be exempted from the quartering of soldiers in a house without the consent of the owner; the right to be exempt from unreasonable searches and seizures, and from any search or seizure except by virtue of a warrant issued upon a formal oath or affidavit; the right of an accused person to be informed of the nature of the accusation against him, and his right to be tried by an impartial jury of the vicinage; and also the right to be secure against excessive bail and against cruel and unusual punishments. . . ."
There's a lot more to this issue than a few quotes out of context can dispose of. But there is evidence that Bingham and others thought that the PorI clause simply mandated that states had to treat citizens equally with respect to these privileges and immunities.
“Each State, so that it does not abridge the great fundamental rights
belonging, under the Constitution, to all citizens, may grant or with-
hold such civil rights as it pleases; all that is required is that, in this
respect, its laws shall be impartial.” - Trumbull
A lot more detail here: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4438666