The Volokh Conspiracy
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Firing Public Employees Who Publicly Praise Violent Criminal Attacks
Some have been calling for the firing of people who publicly praised the murder of Charlie Kirk, or at least who argued that the murder was justified or defensible. I'm not wild about such calls; I think we generally need less cancel culture, not more, even as to people who say morally repugnant things. (Among other things, these calls for firing tend to spiral, to cover a wide range of other speech beyond the outrageous statements that first led to them.) But here let me focus not on the ethical or pragmatic question, but the legal one: If a government employer fires an employee for such speech, would that violate the employee's First Amendment rights?
[1.] Praising violence doesn't generally fall into any existing First Amendment exception, so that means it's protected against the government as sovereign—against criminal punishment, civil liability, and the like. The "incitement" exception is limited to speech that is intended to and likely to cause imminent illegal conduct. Praise of a past murder wouldn't qualify: Even if such praise may have a long-term tendency to influence people in the future to do bad things, the Court has rejected this "bad tendency" test for punishing speech.
Intentionally soliciting a criminal attack on a particular person may potentially be punishable as "solicitation" of crime, under U.S. v. Williams (2008) and U.S. v. Hansen (2023). But that certainly wouldn't apply to mere praise or justification of an attack that had already happened. (Just when it would apply to general advocacy of a future attack is a complex and unsettled question.) For more on these rules, see this post on the Graham Linehan controversy.
[2.] Of course, here the government is acting as employer, and in that capacity it has more latitude to discipline and fire employees than it does to imprison or fine them. Generally speaking, the government may discipline an employee based on the employee's speech if
- the speech is said by the employee as part of the employee's job duties, Garcetti v. Ceballos (2006), or
- the speech is not on a matter of public concern, Connick v. Myers (1983), or
- the damage caused by the speech to the efficiency of the government agency's operation outweighs the value of the speech to the employee and the public, Pickering v. Bd. of Ed. (1968).
There is no categorical exception even as to government employment for speech that praises violence; indeed, Rankin v. McPherson (1987) held that the First Amendment was violated by the firing of a law enforcement clerical employee for saying, after President Reagan was wounded, "if they go for him again, I hope they get him":
[The statement] plainly dealt with a matter of public concern. The statement was made in the course of a conversation addressing the policies of the President's administration. It came on the heels of a news bulletin regarding what is certainly a matter of heightened public attention: an attempt on the life of the President. While a statement that amounted to a threat to kill the President would not be protected by the First Amendment, the District Court concluded, and we agree, that McPherson's statement did not amount to a [punishable] threat … or, indeed, that could properly be criminalized at all.
The inappropriate or controversial character of a statement is irrelevant to the question whether it deals with a matter of public concern. "[D]ebate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open, and … may well include vehement, caustic, and sometimes unpleasantly sharp attacks on government and public officials." "Just as erroneous statements must be protected to give freedom of expression the breathing space it needs to survive, so statements criticizing public policy and the implementation of it must be similarly protected."
[3.] But Rankin stressed that the speech actually didn't create much upset or disruption for the office, whether because of an internal reaction or an external one. To quote the concurrence by Justice Powell,
There is no dispute that McPherson's comment was made during a private conversation with a co-worker who happened also to be her boyfriend. She had no intention or expectation that it would be overheard or acted on by others…. The risk that a single, offhand comment directed to only one other worker will lower morale, disrupt the work force, or otherwise undermine the mission of the office borders on the fanciful.
The majority likewise reasoned,
Interference with work, personnel relationships, or the speaker's job performance can detract from the public employer's function; avoiding such interference can be a strong state interest…. [But w]hile McPherson's statement was made at the workplace, there is no evidence that it interfered with the efficient functioning of the office…. Constable Rankin testified that the possibility of interference with the functions of the Constable's office had not been a consideration in his discharge of respondent and that he did not even inquire whether the remark had disrupted the work of the office.
Nor was there any danger that McPherson had discredited the office by making her statement in public. McPherson's speech took place in an area to which there was ordinarily no public access; her remark was evidently made in a private conversation with another employee. There is no suggestion that any member of the general public was present or heard McPherson's statement.
Nor is there any evidence that employees other than [her boyfriend] who worked in the room even heard the remark. Not only was McPherson's discharge unrelated to the functioning of the office, it was not based on any assessment by the Constable that the remark demonstrated a character trait that made respondent unfit to perform her work.
And indeed, if one looks at later lower court cases, they have routinely turned on whether the speech created enough public controversy. When the government is administering the criminal law or civil liability, such a "heckler's veto" is generally not allowed: The government generally can't shut down a speaker, for instance, because his listeners are getting offended or even threatening violence because they're offended. But in the employment context, the Pickering balance often allows government to fire employees because their speech sufficiently offends coworkers or members of the public. (The analysis may differ for public university professors, though it's not clear how much; see this post for more.)
This conclusion by lower courts applying Pickering might, I think, stem from the judgment that employees are hired to do a particular job cost-effectively for the government: If their speech so offends others (especially clients or coworkers) that keeping the employees on means more cost for the government than benefit, the government needn't continue to pay them for what has proved to be a bad bargain. Maybe that's mistaken. Maybe it's so important to protect public debate, including on highly controversial matters, that public employers should have to keep on even the most controversial employees (see this article by Prof. Randy Kozel, which so suggests in part). But that appears to be the rule.
We see this, for instance, with statements that are allegedly racist, sexist, antigay, antitrans, etc.: If they cause enough public hostility, or seem highly likely to do so, then courts will often allow employees to be fired based on them. But if they largely pass unnoticed except by management and perhaps just a few people who file complaints, then courts are much more likely to hold that the firings may violate the First Amendment (see, e.g., this post and this post, though there are many other such examples).
There are other factors that courts consider, to be sure: For instance, if the employer can show that a person's speech shows they are unsuited to the job, that makes it easier for the employer to prevail. But even there the magnitude of public reaction is relevant, because one common argument is that one trait required for certain employees is the ability and willingness to instill confidence and respect in coworkers and clients, rather than to produce outrage and hostility.
And while some have tried to distinguish, say, racist speech from other speech on the grounds that it shows the speaker is likely to unfairly treat clients or coworkers who belong the groups he condemns, one can say that about many kinds of speech: Speech praising the killing of people who publicly advocate for certain views may be said to show the speaker is likely to unfairly treat members of the groups. (Such unfair treatment may often be illegal, especially by public employees, but in any event will often be unethical and contrary to the employer's mission.) As a result, the magnitude of the public reaction, which is often measurable rather than speculative, ends up playing a major role.
This creates an unfortunate incentive: Like any heckler's-veto-like rule, it rewards would-be cancellers, if they only speak out often enough and with enough outrage. But rightly or wrongly, that is how these cases generally shape up.
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Thank you for the informative article.
Rankin v. McPherson was a relatively easy case, as the statement was a relatively private one to co-workers. But what about a public-school teacher who publicly tweets in support of the murder of Charlie Kirk? It's hard for me to imagine that large numbers of parents wouldn't be concerned about having their child taught by someone who says such things (or just the fact that the teacher is a horrible person). They would (legitimately, I believe) question what else such a person is likely to say to their children. The fact that the teacher made this public statement outside of work, doesn't answer the question, as it was in a form that students likely would learn about. I don't think that the school's principal making a statement like, "This teacher was speaking in his/her private capacity and does not represent the position of the school" would do much to assuage the parents' legitimate concerns.
Rankin v McPherson was probably easy mostly because it predates social media, because I don't understand how your line of reasoning has any boundaries.
Imagine a teacher in Massachusetts votes Republican, and almost all of the parents are Democrats. The teacher mentions this to a coworker, who know posts about it on a Facebook page so all of the parents find out. All the parents are now outraged and don't want to send their kids to be indoctrinated by this teacher. Can the school fire the teacher for being a Republican, or for the act of mentioning it to their coworker just because it makes a lot of parents mad?
As if the school is not indoctrinating the kids with leftists ideology
No, the government may not fire employee X because of a public reaction to what employee Y posts on social media. If anything, employee Y deserves to be fired in that kind of case.
Why do you think that's even a reasonable question?
Because according to KRB, if parents question what a teacher may be saying to their kids, that's a reason to fire that teacher.
I guess in KRB's version of the story, the difference is that the teacher posted directly on social media themselves, so does it change your answer if they themselves posted "Just went out and voted. Looking forward to four more years of Trump!"
So ... now your hypo is that leftist parents are so mindlessly radical that they think voting for Trump is morally equivalent to celebrating a political assassination.
Again, why do you think that's even a reasonable question?
Given how many people thought it was reasonable to publicly and in an attributable fashion to celebrate Kirk's death, maybe that's not such an unreasonable hypo as we might wish.
What is it about your brain that requires you to make up strawmen to respond to instead of just engaging with the actual discussion?
The whole point of my hypothetical is that it doesn't seem to matter how morally bad the speech is, just that people are mad about it. So yes, in my hypothetical, people are mad for a dumb reason. But what's the limiting principle in either Professor Volokh's "the speech caused a disruptive result at the school" or KRB's "the parents won't trust the teacher" that would apply to people being mad about political affiliation as opposed celebrating a murder?
What is it about your brain that requires you to falsely accuse me of a straw man just before you admit that I was right about your hypothetical?
From EV:
(Hyperlink to Prof. Kozel's article omitted.) That's explicitly a descriptive, rather than normative, explication. KTB twice applied the qualifier "legitimate", implying that courts should apply a balancing test of some sort. I agree.
I can't speak for either of them, but I think the limit should be related to a speaker's advocacy or endorsement of serious crime: murder in the instant case, but I would also include drug trafficking and coordinated violation of civil rights, as other illustrations of what I consider "serious" in the context of public employees' public speech. Conversely, I think the law should rarely, if ever, allow firing over someone advocating changes to law (at least through legal means: note the Smith Act of 1940).
That sounds about right. I'd say "depravity", you'd say "serious crime", but that's the general idea. It has to be something that is over the top bad, in a consensus way.
NOT a matter of public controversy, or worse, something widely accepted that the person in authority dislikes.
Agreed. I went with "serious crime" because it was the least subjective framing that came to mind as a legal threshold. Sometime else might devise a better wording or a better threshold.
My concrete examples were by way of showing that I don't think the threshold should be (advocacy or endorsement of) violent crime specifically.
"It has to be something that is over the top bad, in a consensus way."
No. It has to be something that is FOR the VIOLATION of the individual's rights. In other words, "consensus" has nothing to do with it (which is why, despite the "consensus" for it - despite the fact that "it was widely accepted" - slavery was always the VIOLATION of the individual's rights).
Donald Trump directly murdered eleven people week ago. Donald Trump has ordered people who did nothing wrong sent to a concentration camp in El Salvador to be tortured. Donald Trump has enthusiastically supported the return of people fleeing oppression in numerous corners of the world to the places where they were fleeing. Donald Trump wants to round up millions of peaceful people and forcibly expel them from the country. Donald Trump tried to overthrow the government, and sneered that Mike Pence deserved to be hanged by Trump's lynch mob for obeying the law.
I don't really think one can rank these sorts of things, but if one were forced to, Donald Trump would score worse than someone who assassinated one guy.
President Trump may score worse than someone who assassinated one guy -- but that one assassin isn't the leader of a country.
I will not argue the legality of what President Trump was and is doing -- however, I will insist that you compare President Trump to other Presidents. Just a couple of things as examples: President Obama tried to overthrow a duly elected President, and he has killed dozens of people via questionable drone strikes. Pretendent Biden killed innocent children to "avenge" the deaths of American servicemen -- and he ordered the attack despite no good evidence that the targets were involved at all.
All this is just equovicating over policy, though.
Assassinating a random individual for speaking his mind, though -- and then celebrating it online? Perhaps all these firings are extra-Constitutional -- but to the degree that it's happening, it's happening because normal people, not Republicans, are calling in and demanding it!
And in a very serious way, this act is far more dangerous than typical, or even questionable, Presidential action. If this becomes normal, how long do you think it will be before all these "right wing fascist terrorists" pick up their own guns and pick out their own targets? And how many people will die before things settle down? And yet, in addition to celebrating the death of someone for expressing opinions, the Left is asking (and giving answers to) the question "who's next?".
The Left -- your Left -- is playing a very dangerous game here. If we're lucky, this ends with tens of thousands of firings, and the Media cutting out the rhetoric accusing all their political opponents of being Nazis and fascists and Evil Incarnate just for disagreement.
If our luck doesn't hold? I would score "someone who assassinated one guy" -- and the Leftist reaction, flooding the internet with support for that assassination to be far worse than what any President has done -- because that one someone sparked a Civil War.
I think you have to unavoidably distinguish between, "That teacher advocated/approved of voting in a way I don't like." from "That teacher advocated/approved of cold blooded murder."
They're categorically different. They must treated as categorically different.
Because any country where they're not categorically different is about to have a civil war.
I don't think either Professor Volokh's nor KRG's analysis depends on such a categorical distinction, though. Certainly Professor Volokh's doesn't, since he points out why the violence-specific exceptions don't apply.
No, but I was replying to you, not them, and your reaction to KRG.
I think that KRG IS actually relying on such a categorical distinction, at least tacitly.
What do you think the distinction is? As far as I can tell, KRG's analysis is just "the parents wouldn't trust the teacher to teach their kids". Why does it have to be celebrating a murder for that logic to apply?
I mostly just worry that in our social media world, A LOT of speech can be amplified into something a lot of people are mad about. It seems bad if it turns out that "blew up on social media" turns into an exception to the First Amendment for government employees.
"Why does it have to be celebrating a murder for that logic to apply?"
It doesn't have to be celebrating a murder. It could be celebrating child rape, or what have you. What it has to be is, not just something you dislike, but depraved.
Disagreeing with your politics in a way half the electorate does, is not depraved.
And, as I said, if we've reached the point where a significant number of people believe that it IS depraved, we're in for a civil war.
That civil war you keep mentioning, Bellmore. You have not yet said how you distinguish which side of a two-sided depravity to blame (or maybe in your case, praise) for the war.
I assume, based on your previous comments, that you think when Kirk said explicitly that innocents annually killed in shootings were a reasonable price to pay for 2A freedoms, you thought that was a reasonable comment by Kirk. If it was, how can you insist that Kirk's death was depraved?
Even Kirk himself called his fate reasonable. Or do you think Kirk didn't really mean it, he just meant that the innocents killed ought to be other people.
If you sell gasoline, you know for a fact that some of it is going to fall into the hands of arsonists. But cars are a huge benefit to society, so that's just the price we have to pay.
People who don't want cars banned are, morally, arsonists, and have no basis for complaint if somebody burns their house down?
There are all sorts of products in society that have huge benefits, but unavoidably also have rather smaller downsides, and we don't ban them because the benefits are worth the downsides.
That doesn't mean anybody who doesn't want rat poison banned has no complaint if they're poisoned. That doesn't mean that anybody who thinks kitchen knives should be legal is fair game to stab.
You, Lathrop, are a moral imbecile, but that isn't exactly news. The psychological process of, "A good man I really dislike has been murdered, I must find some excuse for denying that he's a good man so that I don't feel guilty about being happy about it!" is pretty obviously at play here. A better man would fight it, not lean into it.
I find I rather like the clarity we're gaining here, I like that people who were concealing that they were moral monsters are self identifying. I don't like how many of them there are, but it's better to know who they are.
Thanks for self-identifying this way, it's highly useful.
That doesn't mean anybody who doesn't want rat poison banned has no complaint if they're poisoned. That doesn't mean that anybody who thinks kitchen knives should be legal is fair game to stab.
Bellmore, there is no refuge for you in figurative subject changes. I can apply them as fast as you can invent them. Kirk did not justify rat poison as useful for killing rats, he justified intentional rat poisonings of people as necessary so society can keep rats in check. Kirk did not justify kitchen knives as useful for chopping onions, he justified intentional stabbings of people to convenience chopping onions.
If you are going to accuse someone of moral monstrosity because he opposes enabling gun murders—which is what you are doing in my case—you will be at least comparably monstrous if you advocate enabling gun murders as reasonable and necessary for the good of society.
But thanks for the opportunity to recast this question in context of you and me, instead of in context of someone just murdered in accord with his own unwise advocacy.
Also, please note, your entire gun advocacy has always been a demand that others accept a fundamental fallacy—that there exists some class of, "law abiding," gun carriers, whom the law must trust and enable without regard for murderous damage that policy will inevitably inflict on innocents. That is crazy for three reasons. First, because no such class exists. Second because rule of law is not a notion consistent with preexisting classes of individuals who enjoy legal impunity, let alone some right of defiance of the kind you trumpet. Third, because it precludes compromise in favor of insistence on extremes.
If you had the slightest qualms about maimings and deaths of innocents—assuming moral reasoning is too challenging for you—then you would back regulations to reverse the arrow of the civilian arms race. You would seek to arm would-be self-defenders with arms suitable to accomplish self-defense in almost every case. But would reject arguments in favor of absurd self-defense hypotheticals—hypotheticals requiring arms so deadly they encourage gun criminals to a sense of practical dominance to accomplish deadly mass mayhem before they can be stopped.
Your constant reiteration of threats of civil war explains why you do that. You want to reserve that capacity for mass criminal aggression, in case a day might arrive when you think you ought to do it yourself. You worry that some day might come when you want to practice mass criminal aggression, but find yourself insufficiently armed to kill promiscuously enough to fulfill your dreams.
Or, even more perversely, you find it impossible to imagine a state of present safety without a goad of impending catastrophe to keep it in order. Bellmore, you are a catastrophile, which is a heavy burden to carry. Too heavy to make it wise policy to let folks who carry that burden inflict it on everyone else.
"Kirk did not justify rat poison as useful for killing rats, he justified intentional rat poisonings of people as necessary so society can keep rats in check. "
It's particularly diagnostic of your moral derangement, that you feel the need to lie about a dead man, just so you can feel better about him dying.
Bellmore, there is no refuge for you in figurative subject changes.
Since you're okay with 2.5 times as many people dying from alcohol-related causes, you have no moral high ground to stand on here.
I find I rather like the clarity we're gaining here, I like that people who were concealing that they were moral monsters are self identifying.
Same here. You're willing to live with people getting killed in drunk driving accidents, and in domestic violence incidents related to alcohol abuse, because you don't want to give up your Friday night mimosa. Talk about self-identifying.
I assume, based on your previous comments, that you think when Kirk said explicitly that innocents annually killed in shootings were a reasonable price to pay for 2A freedoms
You support an industry that kills 2.5 times more people than firearms, including women and children. You're hardly in a position to try and say that his political assassination was reasonable.
I did not say Kirk's assassination was reasonable. I said Kirk said his assassination was reasonable. Which he did, although he omitted to name himself as he said it. He presumably thought it more reasonable if it was someone else.
LOL, stop. Your assertion has no credibility after you spent paragraphs saying why it was.
No, Kirk did not say that. He pointed out the hypocrisy in not demanding the banning of cars given their dramatically higher death rate.
And, yes, the risk of bad things is not a reason to ban them.
"You support an industry that kills 2.5 times more people....You're hardly in a position to try and say that his political assassination was reasonable."
You (like Charlie before you) have falling into the Left's trap here. You are preaching and trying to practice the Left's principles here. As the Left desires, you have DROPPED the individual's rights as your standard for human interaction. As the Left desires, you have SUBSTITUTED 'cost/benefit analyses' in PLACE of rights as your standard for human interaction. In other words, you have surrendered TO the Left completely. You have accepted their idea that the individual is your PROPERTY, to be disposed of as YOU see fit, to satisfy YOUR desires. And you are now just and are left to just sqwabbling with the Left over what is the most 'cost' effective - the most "reasonable" - the most 'benefitial' - the supposed 'best' - way to dispose of your human CHATTEL so as to produce the greatest 'benefit' at the 'least' cost.
In other words, YOU are giving the Left the oxygen it needs to not only breathe, but to thrive. What you need to do instead is take them *off* YOUR life support system. You need to starve them of oxygen by REJECTING their principle, thereby choking ALL their arguments before ANY of them can even be uttered. You need to suffocate the Left by feeding it the one thing it can't swallow (can't argue against): the individual's rights.
Rad4Cap, nobody has advocated for banning alcohol. They are pointing out Lathrop’s hypocrisy in not wanting to ban or severely limit the availability of alcohol even though alcohol accounts for more deaths.
"Rad4Cap, nobody has advocated for banning alcohol."
Jazzizhep - you missed the point entirely. Charlie Kirk EXPLICITLY declared that the 'cost' of so-called "gun violence" like this is "worth" the 'benefit' of private gun ownership. In other words - as *I* explicitly stated - Charlie did a 'cost/benefit analysis' regarding guns. And, in contrast to the Left's 'cost/benefit analysis' conclusions, Charlie concluded that the 'cost' of private gun ownership did not outweigh the 'benefit' of private gun ownership. Put simply, Charlie did not proceed from the principle that the individual has an inalienable RIGHT to his OWN life and his OWN effort. Instead, Charlie proceeded from the principle that what the individual does with his OWN life and his OWN effort has to be *justified* in accord with some OTHER standard (in this case, what is 'best' for the 'greatest number'). That blatant appeal to COLLECTIVISM is the Left's eviI philosophy. It proceeds from the principle that the individual is the PROPERTY of others, to be disposed of as THEY see fit, to satisfy THEIR desires (ie what they consider to be a 'benefit').
THAT is the principle Charlie was preaching.
Moreover, that is the principle Red Rocks was preaching as well. He TOO failed to base his arguments on the individual's rights. Instead, like you, Red declared that the Left's 'cost/benefit analysis' was 'flawed' (and thus the Left were being 'hypocritical' as you put it). In other words, Red was arguing that the Left is CORRECT to do 'cost/benefit analyses' to JUSTIFY any given human interaction. Red was simply claiming that the Left's 'costs' are simply supposedly 'higher' than the Right's 'costs' and THAT supposed 'fact' - not the individual's rights - is what invalidates the Left's ideas about private gun ownership.
MY point is that preaching and practicing the LEFT'S eviI philosophy of REJECTING the individual's rights as the standard of human interaction and REPLACING it with 'cost/benefit analyses' regarding a supposed 'greater good' is the ONLY thing that keeps the Left alive. MY point is the Right being just another competing sect OF the Left, sqwabbling with the rest of the Left over the supposedly 'best' way to achieve a so-called 'greater good', ONLY serves to perpetuate the Left.
You MISSED that point completely.
You MISSED the point that the ONLY way to STOP the Left - to STOP things like Charlie Kirk's assassination - is for the Right to STOP preaching and practicing the Left's philosophy of disposing of human beings according to 'cost/benefit analyses' as if humans were just HERD ANIMALS owned BY the Collective Instead, the Right needs to START preaching and practicing the philosophy of RIGHTS (aka START preaching and practicing the FACT of REALITY that the individual is NOT anyone else's PROPERTY - certainly NOT the PROPERTY of ANY group - but is the SOLE, monopolistic owner of his OWN life and his OWN effort). The Right needs to START preaching and practicing the fact that RIGHTS identify the actions a man may take REGARDLESS of the whims, wishes, desires, benefits, or detriments of ANYONE else.
You MISSED the point that, UNTIL the Right STARTS doing that, THEY are the ones keeping the Left alive. THEY are the ones keeping things like Charlie Cook's murder continuing to happen. THEY are the ONLY ones who can STOP the Left. But, instead, they are BEING the Left.
Until you understand that point, instead of missing it, you and the rest of the Right will KEEP failing to STOP the Left.
Jazzizhep - an addendum: Note that Charlie and the rest of the Right are consistent in their practice of the Left's philosophy. For instance, recall Charlie's now oft-quoted 'justification' for the Free Speech. It wasn't because each individual has the *inviolable* right to his OWN life and his OWN effort, including the right to the use of his OWN voice (the same way the individual has the right to the use of his OWN hands). No. Instead Charlie made a Consequentialist appeal to the results (the 'cost') if speech was not free: "When people stop talking, that's when you get violence. That's when civil war happens". In other words, Charlie argued that the 'benefit' of free speech FAR outweighed the 'cost' of not having free speech. And he defended free speech ON that basis - thereby SANCTIONING the Left to argue that the 'cost' of free speech actually OUTWEIGHS the 'benefit' of not having free speech.
In other words, NEITHER the Left nor Charlie and the Right argue that the individual has the RIGHT to speak REGARLESS of any supposed 'cost/benefit analysis'. Instead BOTH argue that speech is merely a PERMISSION which is granted and justified BY the wishes of others for some sort of 'benefit' or avoidance of 'cost'.
Think about if this had been done in regard to the issue of Slavery and Abolition. Both the Left and the Right would be arguing about whether it was MORE or LESS 'beneficial' - whether it was MORE or LESS 'costly' - to free blacks than to keep them enslaved. NEITHER of them would have been arguing that black men, women, or children have the RIGHT to their OWN lives and their OWN effort. ALL of them would have been arguing about the supposed 'utility' of the black man as a slave or as a free man.
Talk about banal and callous eviI!
What complete sophistry! What Kirk said was the equivalent of saying, "We know OJ did it, but he is entitled to a fair trial, and -- whaddya know? -- sometimes the guilty get off. So yes, affording due process will result sometimes in the acquittal of the guilty, but it's worth it anyway." Which is absolutely correct.
I can't figure out the dotted lines. Was that charge of sophistry intended for me?
"yes, affording due process will result sometimes in the acquittal of the guilty, but it's worth it anyway." Which is absolutely correct.
Not exactly - for the very reason the Left uses his statement against him. Basically your statement here is one the Left AGREES with. You've engaged in a 'cost/benefit' analysis of whether there is supposedly 'greater good' (greater "worth") in "affording due process" even if "sometimes the guilty get off" than some supposed alternative. And the Left utterly AGREES that a 'cost/benefit analysis' must be done. They simply declare that the 'cost' (the "harm") of X is too high compared to the supposed 'benefit' of X. In other words, you ACCEPT the Left's principle that "harm" is the issue - and thereby give the entire game up to them.
"Harm" is NOT the issue. The individual's right to his OWN life and his OWN effort is the issue - REGARDLESS of any 'cost' or any 'benefit' of refusing to treat the individual as human CHATTEL. By abandoning the individual's RIGHTS for 'cost/benefit analyses' as the standard of human interaction, you (and Charlie) surrender to the Left.
That is why the Right continues to ENDLESSLY sqwabble with the Left over what 'cost' is or is not acceptable in exchange for what 'benefit', forever giving up ground to the Left - as it has done for over a century now (what was FAR Left a hundred years ago is MAINSTREAM Right today). It is why the Left dominates the culture. Because the Right too accepts the principle that the standard for human interaction is NOT rights, but 'cost/benefit analyses'. And we saw the disastrous result of this SHARED eviI during COVID. As a survey three months into COVID identified, more than 80% of the US - Left AND Right - demanded (and got) SOME form of wholesale VIOLATION of the individual's rights. While each side used different 'cost/benefit' equations to determine the 'best' way to dispose of their human PROPERTY to prevent "harm" (to 'minimize cost'), they BOTH substituted such 'cost/benefit analyses' for the individual's right to his OWN life and his OWN effort as their standard for human interaction.
And unfortunately nothing has changed since then - as evidenced by Charlie's appeal here TO 'cost/benefit analyses' as his standard for judging human interactions.
ONLY when the Right once again takes up the mantle of RIGHTS rather than 'cost/benefit analyses' will things begin to change. Until then, people like Charlie sadly only aid and abet the Left in replacing the FACTS of REALITY (the individual's SOLE, monopolistic ownership of his OWN life and his OWN effort) with personal FEELINGS ('consequences' one does or doesn't LIKE).
"What it has to be is, not just something you dislike, but depraved."
No. As an employee of a government which is supposed to be solely dedicated to the defense of the individual's RIGHT to his OWN life and his OWN effort, "what it has to be" is the REJECTION of that fundamental operating principle. In other words, the issue is not anything one finds "morally corrupt; wicked" (aka the definition of "depraved") like, say, being a witch (see: Salem) or a pornographer, etc etc. The issue is NOT between the WHIMS of individuals (ie what supposed counts or doesn't count as "depraved"). The issue is about government employees standing in righteous and gleeful OPPOSITION to THE operating principles of that government. No government dedicated to the DEFENSE of the individual's rights should EVER hire or continue to employ people who demand the VIOLATION of the individual's rights.
Put simply, the issue is NOT about competing WHIMS (aka 'depravity'). The issue is about the FACTS of REALITY (aka 'rights').
And what about federal law enforcement or national security personnel? A secret service agent? Firing any such persons celebrating a political assassination in this country is not just justified, it's pretty much mandatory.
"was a relatively easy case, as the statement was a relatively private one"
So you're saying that, as an employer, a government dedicated to the DEFENSE of the individual's rights must be forbidden from even considering a person's desire for the VIOLATION of the individuals rights when hiring or firing - ESPECIALLY if that desire is only expressed in 'relative privacy'? In other words, if a government employee declares "I like and want the diddling of children" (a grotesque violation of rights), you're saying that - so long as he doesn't make that statement 'publicly' but only 'privately' - a government dedicated to STOPPING such horrors properly MUST hire or continue to employ him??
You don't seem to think that speech itself is an individual right. A government employee merely expressing an opinion harms no one and violates nobody's rights.
Ah, but is celebrating the assassination of someone because he was sharing his thoughts count as "merely expressing an opinion"?
Considering that even government employees have been fired for much less -- indeed, there's no doubt that if a racist tweet from 10 years ago surfaces, you would almost certainly be at the front of the line demanding his termination -- do you really think you guys have a leg to stand on?
To make this point even clearer, just as an organization dedicated to saving the lives of patients would properly NOT hire or continue to employ a physician who declares "I want patients to die not recover", so too a government dedicated to STOPPING non-consensual human interaction would properly NOT hire or continue to employ a person who declares "I want people to have non-consensual intercourse, not consensual intercourse".
Of course, contrary to the claims of those who know NOTHING about rights - or, worse, who REJECT rights - while such a physician or government employee is certainly free to make such a declaration, NO one is required to EMPLOY that person. Not a hospital. Not a government. NO one is required to IGNORE that person's speech and continue to associate and trade with that person. In other words, contrary to the ignorant and the dishonest, NEITHER of those is a duty placed on everyone else by the individual's EXERCISE of his right of free speech.
The left: "We don't know how these young men get these ideas and are so radicalized".
A guy who was convinced by democrats and their supporting media that Charlie Kirk was a fascist killed him in cold blood in a planned shooting.
Next we saw the reaction of millions. some posting with their full names and faces. teachers, childcare workers, healthcare workers, hr professionals, game developers. hundreds of thousands of people that we walk amongst every day, who live next door to us, people we think are friends; people we thought were normal people celebrating the gruesome public execution of a father shot in the fucking throat, celebrating his death because Kirk politically did not agree with them.
We saw the left's real beliefs when the “ in this house we believe” shit-lib mask was ripped off. The left is a bunch of sociopathic freaks.
The media asks "Why would he do such a thing?"
Bullshit! They know. They created the killer. Kirk's death is the fault of the Democrat party, their supporters, and that adoring media.
Let the left lose their jobs for their evil comments. Let them reap what they sowed. That is what they demanded happen to conservatives for so many years. FAFO.
As usual, "the right" reveals that they don't have any principled opposition to concepts like cancel culture or limits on free speech. They just don't like when it happens to them.
You don't see any difference between, "Canceled due to expressing some perfectly mainstream, perhaps even majority, position", and "Canceled due to approval of cold blooded murder"?
I don't think the objection to cancel culture was ever based on the idea that it was wrong even in the most extreme circumstance to socially sanction people for opinions.
It was based on the idea that it was wrong to socially sanction people for opinions that WEREN'T extreme, and were unrelated to the nature of the sanction.
You expect to get fired from a elementary school if you're discovered to be a member of NAMBLA.
Not if you're a member of the Knights of Columbus, or the Masons.
The objectionable aspect of cancel culture was, for anybody but an absolutely principled free speech libertarian, that it was people with perhaps minority views, who'd gotten into positions of influence, and were using them to punish disagreement with themselves. Disagreement that was entirely in the mainstream of public opinion.
In the context of BLM and George Floyd, I think there was indeed a lot of pushback against people being cancelled for defending Floyd's murder.
I can't recall one person who "defended Floyd's murder". I recall a lot of people claiming that he wasn't murdered.
There were some people who said that he died because he overdosed on drugs or whatever so Chauvin didn't actually kill him. Fine.
But there were plenty of people basically saying he got what he deserved. Do you really think that's materially different from what some gross people on the left are saying about Kirk?
I don't think the two are materially, or morally, different; however, I don't recall scarcely anyone, never mind plenty of people, saying he got what he deserved.
The outpouring of glee — two Boise area high school teachers fired yesterday for doing so — over Kirk's death is on an entirely different level.
He committed a home invasion armed robbery with 4-5 others and personally held a woman at gunpoint at contact range. So yeah, Floyd got what he deserved.
That criminal history wasn't eligible for the death penalty, though. The relevant difference is that the debate over Floyd was how much he contributed to his own death (overdose, resisting arrest, saying "I can't breathe" even before police retained him, etc.) -- whereas the analogous argument here would be that public debate justifies summary execution.
I am not going to say that floyd got what he deserved.
He did die of an overdose of drugs and thus his death from the overdose was to be expected based on his drug use. Note that the state's theory of the cause of death was not supported by the forensic evidence in the autopsy.
He did not, you lying POS who pretends to be an expert on everything but is actually an expert on nothing.
Yes it was, you lying POS.
I watched that trial, every slimy moment of it. Yes, there was room for reasonable doubt -- but Chauvin was railroaded to satisfy the mob waiting outside for the trial to conclude.
I suppose that might be more precisely characterized as defending Floyd's murderer, but not sure why that's any better.
In the context of BLM and George Floyd, I think there was indeed a lot of pushback against people being cancelled for defending Floyd's murder.
LOL, shitlib jb resorting to vague generalities because he's lying his ass off.
Words are violence, and so cancel away.
Words of joy at violence is not violence and should not be cancelled.
Kneel with me. Dear God. Please send an asteroid to smear this worthless world across the void. Make it a large one to turn the whole surface to lava, to kill even the microbes in the deepest river caves and crabbies about the geothermal mid-Atlantic vents.
Just to be sure.
"principled opposition to concepts like cancel culture"
When cancel culture first started, I though it a bad idea. Then I recognized it was mainly hurting people in the arts, academia and mass media, all left dominated fields. So I changed my mind and now have principled support.
Plenty of right leaners make bad social media comments but they are overwhelmingly anonymous or not in pubic facing positions.
Leftists tend to be more likely to post such things under their own names. An id containment problem I guess.
You think principles for suckers, so I don't buy this story at all.
You don't need to change your mind; you don't care enough for that.
Buy or don't buy. I simply don't care.
You think principles for suckers, so I don't buy this story at all.
My principles don't apply when your side shows they don't believe in them. Part of the social contract includes the agreement that both sides will live by it. Your side broke it, so now you get to reap the consequences.
You don't even understand what principles are, then.
Go on then, live in partisan hate for the rest of your life. The libs will never be owned enough for you to feel happy for long.
No, I understand them just fine. This is just a lame effort on your part to convince the right to act passively when you have power, while you act aggressively when you have it.
And that effort is immaterial to how "happy" I am or not. It's too bad your side didn't actually believe in the principle yourself. You just don't like it when your own "liberating tolerance" goes in your direction.
People like you don't have any consistent ideological principles, they only have consistent targets.
Your frantic empty posting of I know U are but what am I is not going to make you more righteous or more content.
People like you don't have any consistent ideological principles, they only have consistent targets.
More lame attempts at re-direction when your dialectic is called out.
Your frantic empty posting of I know U are but what am I is not going to make you more righteous or more content.
More efforts to convince your political enemies to act passive while you act aggressive with impunity. Your side gleefully indulged in cancel culture and broke the social contract because you thought you were on The Right Side of History. Now you get to suffer the consequences of your special pleading. And contrary to your stupid psychobabble, that does make me very, very content. Righteousness is immaterial since your side doesn't believe in such things anyway unless they can be framed from the left.
Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose.
Sarcrastr0, at some point, you have to ask yourself "if my enemies don't abide by my principles and hurt me by those violations, what point is it for me to abide by my principles, since they don't seem to help anyone anymore?"
Or, to put it another way, a boy complained to his Mom that his little sister kept pulling his hair. "Oh, that's because she doesn't know it hurts" -- and a few minutes later there is a scream, and an announcement "she knows now!"
Principles observed by only one side aren't principles -- and the only way Geneva Conventions can be upheld, is for the observant country to respond to violations of the Convention in kind.
I really do hope the Left are quick learners. They need to understand we have principles for good reasons -- but they can only work if everyone abides by them.
Seems like MAGA's view is they have principles for good reasons, but they can't work unless everyone abides by them. So they threaten to force everyone to abide by MAGA principles. And not just threaten.
Seems like the Left's view is "we have no principles so we can do what we want, because MAGA has principles they must always abide by, so they will never fight back!"
Apparently MAGA has this funny principle that "you don't shoot people that disagree with you." This, however, clashes with the Left's principle "Words are violence, so if someone disagrees with us, we can just shoot them!" -- and if MAGA does anything at all to retaliate against this principle.
The Left has made it very clear that they don't want the death of Charlie Kirk to be the last.
Now MAGA is "threatening" to hold the Left to their principles -- by doing to the Left what they have been doing for years. Right now, it's "you celebrate the death of an assassin, we cancel you". But it can easily become "you take out one of ours, we take out one of yours".
What are we supposed to do? Stick to our principles, when the Left has made it very clear that abiding by them is an existential threat to our very lives? Or stand up and adopt the principles of the Left, until the Left decides they should adopt better principles?
Also: the United States in WWII that was "we take prisoners when they surrender". But we abandoned that principle in the Pacific Theatre. Do you know why?
Because Japanese soldiers would pretend to surrender and then shoot the American soldiers as they walked up to accept the surrender.
The only way you could "enforce" that Geneva Convention principle is by adopting a take no prisoners policy. And so that's what we did.
Principles always apply or they're not principles.
And if one side stops applying them -- a very good example is right here, "don't kill opponents over expressing their ideas" -- the only alternative is to respond in kind.
You are complaining that we aren't standing behind our principles by resorting to cancel culture -- but you don't fully appreciate that this is a last-ditch effort to avoid activating another principle -- and we are very close to activating it -- and that principle is simply "if the Left is going to kill us for our speech, we are going to kill them for theirs".
epsilon — Before you start aiming in my direction, I want to know why you think I, or any other particular person, is a member of this killable, "Left." I'm concerned you might insist it is just whoever you say it is.
First of all, for purposes of this conversation, you are a Leftist because you consistently defend positions of those who committed this assassination, and you try to pick apart the positions of the assassinated.
Second, for purposes of payback -- were you one of the Leftists who cheered on Charlie Kirk's assassination? Because those are the current targets of the first round: we are going after their livelihoods. We will get them fired, and we will keep them from finding work. We will also purge government through elections -- it may be a decade or two before they can reliably win elections.
Third, if this isn't enough -- if more people on the Right get shot at, or worse, assassinated -- the next step is to go after prominent Leftists. Are you a politician, or a bureaucrat, or a major voice of the Left? If not, you are probably safe -- but these guys will be shot, so they had better hope it doesn't get to that point.
Who will get shot first? I don't know. You almost certainly cannot tell me why Charlie Kirk was targeted, so why expect me to know the targets on the Right? At this point we're in freefall, and what's worse, it's the last stop to:
Fourth, if none of this is enough to stop the Left, we will be going door-to-door in a full-fledged Civil War. You won't be safe. I won't be safe. No one will be safe. At this point, it will be a free-for-all bloodbath. And don't bother blaming the Right on this: we will only get to this point because the Left cannot stop being violent, despite the other things we tried.
You may be concerned that the Left is whomsoever I say it is -- but you are wrong, because I don't have much of a say in who gets targeted. During the Iraq and Afghanishan Wars, many people told us "every person you kill will generate 10 terrorists". As of October 7th, I found out that you were right all along: the only things keeping me from turning Gaza into glass is religious constraint and an inability to do so. As of September 10th ... let's just say my religious constraint is being severely tested. How many of our own do you think your terrorists can take out, before we become outright terrorists ourselves? And what makes you think, if it gets to that point, anyone would be able to predict anything?
So, what do you think? Will the Left back off before it's too late? The problem, of course is the difference in approaches to violence: for the Left, it's a dial that could be turned up and down, depending on the situation, but for the Right, violence is a switch, and it's "let's talk things over and vote" on one side, and "f***ing kill everyone" on the other.
I have to add a follow-up: in the past few days, I have heard about the candle-light vigils, the churches filled with people who hadn't gone to church in 20 years, the ten of thousands of applications for Turning Point chapters, and yes, all the cancelations of people celebrating Charlie's death, among other things.
And do you know what? I'm much more optimistic that we'll pull through this without sparking a Civil War!
As usual, "the right" reveals that they don't have any principled opposition to concepts like cancel culture or limits on free speech. They just don't like when it happens to them.
As usual, the left doesn't like it when their own ethic of "liberating tolerance" goes in the other direction, and simply tries to claim that the right doesn't believe in the thing the left only does when it's convenient.
We didn't make the rules of politics by special pleading. You did, over 50 years ago.
jb, "the right" has been enduring cancel culture for years -- but now that the Left has done the ultimate cancel, the right has said "enough -- we have to stop this" and in their anger, they are cheering on cancellations. What's more, it's not even the right -- it's ordinary Americans who oppose murder, who is seeing people celebrate it -- calling in and demanding the firings.
Yes, the right doesn't like it when cancel culture comes for them -- they are now going to see how much the Left likes it, when it is applied to them.
"Cancel culture" is an anti-concept and always has been. It is the Fallacy of Package Dealing - ie it is the lumping together of opposing things with the purpose of treating them the same. In the case of "cancel culture", it lumps together just and unjust refusals to associate with other human beings, and treats ALL those acts as if they were unjust. The idea of a "cancel culture" is no different and no less eviI than the idea of an "intercourse culture" which lumps together sex and rap E, and treats BOTH those acts as if they were rap E.
Put simply, "cancel culture" is nothing but an attempt to attack just behavior by means of false association with unjust behavior. And it was created to avoid the logical requirement of having to rationally prove the behavior is unjust. In other words, "cancel culture" is just a form of the injustice called "Guilt by Association", except the association meant to smear the innocent is not between individuals but between ideas.
As I have been thinking about this, I have come to realize that I am not entirely opposed to "cancel culture" as a concept -- indeed, it is a natural consequence of free speech, free association, and so forth -- but I have always objected to the petty nature of a large number of these cancelations, and anger towards companies that should have a spine and refuse to back down -- and thus firing someone who had (gasp!) a different opinion.
And as I think about this, I realize that this has pretty much been the Right's position all along.
But now that the tables are turned, and the Right is using Cancel Culture with a vengeance, the Left is complaining "but I thought you were against Cancel Culture! Why aren't you adhering to your principles! We're the only ones who are supposed to decide who gets canceled! What about the First Amendment?!?"
Now that I've laid it out plainly, I can clearly see what I've been sensing these past few days, and the audacity is truly sickening.
Oh look, the line is already starting to shift from "the shooter was a liberal tranny" to "it's the left/Dem/media's fault that a white Mormon from a conservative gun-loving family had his mind changed"
Let's see how well CindyF's comment fares 24 hours from now.
Oh, look: You don't care if it's true. The effort to gaslight everybody into thinking this murderer was a conservative having failed, (Though a great many gullible people will continue to believe it for years to come.) you've switched over to "what does it matter why he did it?"
The evidence released so far shows no strong political interests in either direction. He seems to fit the "online school shooter" profile more than anything else. (And, technically, this was a "school shooting"...)
The evidence released so far is his family members and school mates confirming that he was an increasingly far-left member of a conservative family.
Considering the standard rad-left origin story begins with, "I was born and raised in an extremely conservative family," these attempts at cope and deflection are even more hilarious.
This is literally the opposite of the truth.
LOL, cope harder.
"Oh look, the line is already starting to shift from 'the shooter was a liberal tranny'"
So you're saying that this description falls a little short?
Oh, please: as someone who has been a Latter-day Saint for my entire life and has lived in Utah for a good portion of my life, do you really expect me to take this comment seriously, when even the most faithful and loving parents among us can have children who decide to reject their upbringing?
Or do you sincerely believe children can be perfectly brainwashed, and have no ability on their own to accept or reject the religion they were brought up in?
I also can't help but wonder: why in the world would someone who rejects their upbringing decide it's ok to shoot people they disagree with? Might it have something to do with the new culture they decided to embrace?
And finally, why does any of this matter? Hundreds of thousands of Leftists outright celebrated the murder -- the murderer could have been Charlie's brother, still angry that he didn't share his fire engine when he was five years old -- and all those Leftists will still be there, having wished they had been the one to pull the trigger themselves.
Quit. It's not only "the Left," just like it's not only "the Right" demonizing the opposition. It's "the extremists." The remedy is for public discourse to return to popular centrist norms.
Join me in doing that?
What are some examples of right-wingers gloating in someone being murdered for political opinions?
in light of recent news, rofl
In light of recent news, cope harder.
CindyF, Kirk himself called the kind of shooting which victimized him a reasonable price to pay for 2A freedoms. Are you defending him, or attempting to prove him wrong?
You're okay with people dying from something that kills 2.5 times more people than guns. You have no moral high ground to stand on.
Stephen, don't people like you insist that you don't want to come after hunting rifles -- only militar style ones?
Yet here we are, discussing an assassination committed with a bolt action five-round fixed magazine rifle that hasn't been "standard issue" for militaries since the Spanish American War.
And furthermore, after the murder, hundreds of others celebrated killing a guy for views millions of people agree with -- and immediately started asking "who's next?".
Do you really think that arguing over "a reasonable price to pay for 2A freedoms" is going to go over well, when you just told the world that the only thing keeping the Left from gathering us in cattle cars is the fact that so many of us are armed?
Face it: assassinating Charlie Kirk the way you guys did only proved him right. This is probably the worst thing that could have happened to your movement. Hopefully it won't grow into the worst thing that has happened to America.
"hasn't been "standard issue" for militaries since the Spanish American War"
I take your point, but the M1903 Springfield was in service with the US military into WWII (the USMC on Guadalcanal for example) and according to Wikipedia was "used as a sniper rifle during World War II, the Korean War and the Vietnam War".
The (10 shot) SMLE was the general issue rifle for Brit and Commonwealth troops past Korea.
The rifle here was reported to be a Mauser, which was the general issue rifle for Germany until 1945, and still used by other militaries for years afterwards. The US was the only WWII military to not issue a bolt action as their general use rifle in WWII. There were submachine guns - Sten, PPSh, M3, etc, - in general use, and of course the StG 44, but the bolt guns were still in wide use.
Absaroka — Also, notably, at least among the weapons used by the U.S. in the Spanish American War was the 30-40 Krag. I have fired one carried by a friend's father, who used it in Cuba. Reportedly, there remains at least one former training location in the American West where spent 30-40 cartridge cases can still be found. I don't remember where that is.
During the 1970s my friend still had a box and a half of cartridges, and used one or two a year to shoot game.
"I take your point, but...the bolt guns were still in wide use."
If you take his point, then - in the context of that point - what is YOUR point? In other words, in the context of Charlie Kirk's assassination, why do you argue that the very old-style weapon used to murder him was in use in the military 'not too long ago'?
It's simply the narrow point that the statement that bolt action rifles were last used by the military in the Spanish-American War is not correct; they were the dominant type thru WWII. I think it's a better world when discussions are based on actual facts.
If I say something that is factually wrong, I welcome corrections - I don't want a head full of faulty data.
This is indeed very fair!
I think I was too focused on the Mauser, and forgot the Garand was a bolt-action too!
"This is indeed very fair!"
So your statement about the Spanish-American War was NOT simply rhetorical hyperbole on your part in order to make the point that the use of the term "military" as a rationalization for banning guns is dishonest and ridiculous.
Okay. Well *that* is an unexpected declaration.
Many of the guns we use for hunting and recreation were once military weapons. Thus, to ban "military weapons" is to ban common hunting rifles.
Heck, the "dreaded" AR15 itsed is commonly used for hunting cyotes and other pests -- and to the best of my knowledge it has never been a standard military-issued firearm. (Yes, the M16 is -- but the M16 is also a machine gun.)
Epsilon — You are going to have a hard time associating the mud in your mind with anything I wrote in these comments. Except that you are right about the gun. I continue to advocate that guns of that sort do not need extra controls.
More the opposite. I think random mass shootings—and politically-motivated insurrectionist intimidation—would be ameliorated if AR-style rifles were replaced with rifles like the one that apparently did in fact kill Kirk. I don't think a hypothesis like that requires proof of perfect efficacy to warrant serious consideration. You seem to have followed my advocacy, so I will not repeat the reasoning now.
You are clearly not familiar with mass shootings. The weapons used run the gamut of pistols, rifles, and shotguns of multiple types. Heck, the Columbine shooting was committed by guns that were legal under the 1990 Assault Weapons ban!
You are the one who brought up Charlie Kirk's position on this issue as justification for his murder. Among your ranks, people are saying "if only Kirk supported banning gunse he'd still be alive!" And now you're the one saying you wouldn't have banned that gun -- so Kirk would have died anyway!
Now, if you're so worried about ameliorating mass shootings, I have a confession to make: whenever I hear that someone decided to use guns to commit mass murder, I breath a sigh of relief. Guns aren't all that effective for committing mass murder. Most people aren't aware that "go and shoot everyone" was Columbine Plan B. In an era that barely predates the Internet, their Plan A was just a couple of searches away to being successful -- and had they been successful, at least ten times as many people would have died that day!
We should be very grateful that all the copycats ignore that one little bit.
Jasmine Crockett insists that when she calls Trump "wannabe Hitler," it's "not necessarily saying 'Go out and hurt somebody.'"
That "necessarily" means she knows it's at least one reasonable interpretation.
Okay, so the left is to blame for this. And the right is to blame for Dylann Roof and Payton Gendron and Patrick Crusius and Timothy McVeigh.
What specific speeches did Republicans give that could be skewed to mean "go out and do these things", David? We can find a lot more speech from Democrats, and we can even identify specific assassination attempts by Democrats to kill Republican Representatives, Senators, Supreme Court Justices, and Presidental Candidates. Don't think that just because Leftists like you have memory-holed these things, that we have forgotten them. But where are the Republican assassination attempts, David?
And how many of those did the Right celebrate, David?
How many of those were followed up with "Ok, who's next?" with people offering up names, David?
Face it, David: your side has shown its true colors. They have released the wind, they will reap the whirlwind. If we're lucky, this ends peacefully.
Epsilon — I have a suggestion guaranteed to make you a wiser commenter. Put your real name on your stuff. Folks who write under pseudonyms get the credibility associated with pseudonyms, and for good reason. Put on a pseudonym and you subtract real-world constraint. I do not believe you would back with real-world action half the threats you make commenting here.
Stephen, assuming that's your real name, using your real name does nothing to increase your credibility. You say plenty of ridiculous stuff just fine with "real-world constraint" -- and I've spent enough time on Facebook to know that I happily say the things I do under my real name, too -- and that Facebook's real name policy does nothing for "real-world constraint" there, either.
And what have I said that are threats? The current wave of cancellations aren't threats of what could happen -- they are observations of things happening right now, in real time. There are X threads posting cancellation after cancellation, and celebrating each one. I have personally had nothing to do with these cancellations, either.
And it's rich that you are worried about my vague fears that things will escalate, while my fears are based on Leftists asking "who's next?" and gleefully answering the question.
Oh, and do you know something that's especially rich? The very thing you are taking to be a threat isn't something I normally say. I was "channeling" someone.
Let's see if you could tell me who said this: "If you go forward with this horrible decision, Justice Kavanaugh, you will pay the price. You have sown the wind, you will reap the whirlwind!"
And while we're at it, could you remind me again who was arrested for planning on assassinating Justice Kavanaugh -- after he was doxxed -- and after that statement was made?
It's rich that you would lecture me on threats!
She will soon be spouting her bile at McDonalds....
Every time Democrats lose control, their answer is violence.
They burned cities after George Floyd.
They tried to assassinate a Supreme Court Justice over Roe v. Wade.
And now, Charlie Kirk—a husband, father, and bold Christian—was gunned down for daring to speak truth.
This isn’t tolerance.
This isn’t justice.
This is pure hate.
J6.
Democratic politicians in Minnesota.
Nancy Pelosi's husband.
It's both sides.
But don't just criticize the violence. Also criticize calls for violence and dehumanization. That includes the "guillotine" crowd on the left as well as the Kirks and Ingrahams on the right.
What's your point? Both incidents were perpetrated by Leftists.
What is this guillotine crowd?
In recent news, people like these:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/anti-ice-portland-rioters-guillotine-clash-police-burn-flag-war-like-scenes
It's a theme endorsed by at least one Democrat legislator:
https://townhall.com//tipsheet/rebeccadowns/2025/06/16/nc-state-rep-got-herself-into-a-pickle-sharing-wildly-violent-imagery-from-no-kings-day-protests-n2658910
There's a reason the J6 evidence was deleted... sorry encrypted and the password lost and they never found the mysterious bomb planter. As for the second, schizo who thought that Tim Walz was ordering him to kill politicians. As to the third, some form of nutbar given he thought his wife had been replaced by a body double and that his lawyers were conspiring against him.
How many of those things were celebrated by the Right, Reallynotbob?
How many of those things were followed up with "ok, who's next?" and volunteers for names, Reallynotbob?
And how does one "dehumanize" people by going on campus tours, inviting them to ask him questions, with him respectfully answering them, Reallynotbob?
Cindy is very hateful against liberals because she's sure they're all too hateful.
It's honestly very silly.
Yes, your side does like to try and say that any criticism of it is rooted in the thing you love to traffic in.
It's not at all hard to see the Leftist hate -- they plastered it all over social media when Charlie Kirk died!
Heck, DMZ had a live stream where a cheer was heard just before they announced "we just got confirmation that Charlie Kirk has died".
And then they started asking "who's next?" and offering names!
We're supposed to conclude from this that Leftists aren't hateful, Sarcastr0? What evidence can you possibly provide, at this point, that Leftists aren't pure evil, let alone hateful?
I do not understand why people publish stupid shit online with their real name.
Some of them are exposing themselves and truly horrible people.
"real name"
They mainly swim in a left wing sea in their work and life, so are just expressing "normal" views.
Occam's Razor says that the reason is that those people are in fact stupid.
When Pickering applies, is it relevant how much the disruption was foreseeable? A teacher's post about Kirk on her personal social media account was reposted by Libs of TikTok and got millons of views instead of hundreds.
The risk of amplification is baked into that system and shouldn't be an excuse to avoid accountability.
I mean, I dont find it reasonable to someone to go "I didnt think it would go viral" on a public post made in a public forum with millions of users.
its an interesting concept but didn't the original case involve someone telling their spiteful boyfriend about their controversial speech, didn't they know that everyone snitches and that he would tell her employers when they broke up?
That would require the single person who heard the speech to do so. Whereas social media is effectively constantly broadcasting that fact to ANYONE the algorithm serves it to. Completely different.
Which original case? Pickering was over a letter to the editor, where Pickering was fired because the letter contained some number of false claims about the school board, but the Supreme Court sided with Pickering because the government didn't prove he uttered them knowingly or recklessly.
I'd advise anybody who works with her to state that they feel unsafe with her there to HR given that she believes that people who believe as Kirk did, with no violence at all instigated, should be murdered. Legally, action will have to be taken of some sort.
Again, use the rules set up by them.
There's a line here and I'm not sure where it gets drawn.
If someone were to shoot Putin, or the President of Iran, I may or may not verbalize it but deep in my gut my reaction would be "let the joyful news be spread, the wicked old witch at last is dead."
Charlie Kirk was no Putin, not even close. Much as I disagreed with him on just about everything I abhor his death and think his assassin should be severely punished.
Somewhere between Kirk and Putin is a line at which one actually may properly celebrate the death of a monster. Who is in mourning for Mussolini?
But as I'm said, I'm not really sure where to draw that line. Any thoughts?
It is abominable to even contemplate there is some grey area that would justify the assassination of someone because they advocate ideas with which you disagree. Speech and dissent do not constitute violence justifying any retaliation. The problem is that all too many on the left are becoming comfortable responding with violence to speech that they just don't like.
The examples cited were of people who went beyond "advocating ideas". I don't know what the President of Iran may have done, but surely you're aware that Vladimir Putin has been responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent civilians?
The moral culpability of Putin is not at issue. The question asked was where to draw the line with Charlie Kirk. There is no grey area here. Do you disagree with my answer?
The line is drawn at personal responsibility and consequences. People have the right to say most anything stupid: They have the obligation to suffer for it as appropriate.
"I'm not sure where to draw that line"
So you're "not sure where to draw the line" between initiating force against a person for EXERCISING his rights and responding against force to STOP a person from VIOLATING someone's rights? In other words, you can't distinguish between murder and defense against murder.
Talk about the problem with this country in a nutshell!
The line is pretty obvious.
Celebrating someone killed for expressing ideas is abhorrent.
Celebrating someone killed because he he was a dictator who was responsible for numerous deaths and tortures is not. I have no problem with being happy about the death of Nicolae Ceausescu, for example.
Whatever happened to the American right to shoot your mouth off in private?.
Death by Twitter and dopamine, apparently.
When you post something on social media, it is not private.
This does pose an important question and I'm not really sure of the answer. But I do see a big difference between all ill-thought out comment to your boyfriend at work (the McPherson case) and knowingly posting something in the digital world that will last forever and could be read by millions.
Words disappear into the ether. With greater ability to communicate comes greater responsibility, IMHO, especially when you are in a position of trust to other people.
I also think that public harm shouldn't be strained. A standard of "parents might not trust the teacher" is too broad. It needs to be more concrete.
"Whatever happened to the American right to shoot your mouth off in private?"
It is alive and well. Of course, there is also the "American right" of free association and free trade as well - which includes the right NOT to associate and NOT trade with others for ANY reason, including because they shot their mouth off (be it in 'public' OR 'private').
Put simply, an American has the right to shoot his mouth off in 'private' and declare 'I like and want the diddling of little kids'. And every other American has the right to completely shun that creature.
It is a shame you PRETEND only the first right exists - ie it is eviI that you try to PRETEND all the rest of the rights do NOT exist.
The left strangled it to death over the last decade before they finally shot it in the neck this week.
Now print the damn flyers.
If they do it on their own time, on their own technology (no public-owned computer, phone, network) and don't advertise their public employment, sure.
But do it on the company equipment or time? Or claim even if by association that the public agency (or private business) support? I have literally fired physicians for that.
If the teachers did it on their own time, a manager should still explain that the comments are horrible, and that they should not say anything like that in the classroom.
... and then the teachers' union insists that students must not be allowed to record what the teachers are saying and doing in class.
They should not be fired. They should be required to take counseling as a condition of keeping their job. I would be concerned if one of my professors expressed views like that and if that professor knew I was a conservative. I would not be afraid for my life; but I might be afraid that the professor would slant the materials covered and would create a final exam designed to identify the non-conforming students so that they could be assigned lower grades. In fact, that actually happened with my Con Law class.
So they get a day or a week off with pay while they attend 'remediation' then go back to the same classroom and continue, with perhaps sharper boundaries of what they can get away with?
No. There are utterances a teacher can say that deserve immediate termination of their credentials: Merely stating them is grounds for being unemployable around children. That they and the teachers unions think they have a 'right' to spew bile is the problem.
Actions: Meet consequences. Let them live a teachers life on a McDonalds salary.
"If they do it on their own time, on their own technology...and don't advertise their public employment, sure"
No. If an employee of a government dedicated to the defense of the individual's rights declares - publicly OR privately - that he likes and wants the VIOLATION of the individual's rights, it is a NECESSITY for that government to NOT hire him or to fire him. In other words, if a government worker declared 'I like and want the diddling of little kids', it is absolutely proper for that government to fire worker because he REJECTS the operational principle of the government and wants its OPPOSITE.
To use your own example, if one of your physicians stated 'I like the idea of, and want, my patients to die rather than recover', you would IMMEDIATELY and justifiably 'fire your physician for that' - because that is in complete OPPOSITION to the purpose and behavior of a physician. And whether the physician said it 'publicly' (or used your company equipment or time to say it) OR they said it 'privately' (on their own time, with their own technology, etc and didn't connect it to you) wouldn't even enter the picture for you. That's because the issue is NOT, as you frame it here, one of potential reputational damage. The issue is one of the physician's incompatibility with, and opposition to, the operating principles of your organization.
If a physician says something like that in private, how will I (as his employer) know about it? If he or she tells me, even in confidence, then it's no longer private.
More importantly, saying something like that would get reported to the medical board for investigation. Maintaining licensure, and remaining qualified by our malpractice insurance carrier, is a condition of employment at my group, so that would be grounds for immediate termination. And Montana is not an at-will employment state.
Further, I and more than half of the physicians in my group are Jewish (at least right now, it has varied). If we were to hire a person who privately espouses say nazi ideology of racial purity (and in NW Montana it's at least theoretically possible), how would we know? If we did find out, it would be again, grounds for a medical board investigation... I can not know what is in a persons heart (aside from blood, mostly)....that is the providence of YAWEH. All I can go on are words and deeds.
"If a physician says something like that in private, how will I (as his employer) know about it? If he or she tells me, even in confidence, then it's no longer private."
Ignoring your numerous equivocations and dropped context about the definition of 'private' here, in the rest of your post you ACT like you somehow oppose the points I made. Yet your EVERY word agrees with them.
Put simply, you have agreed that IF you were made aware of things a physician said (as was my EXPLICIT example, regardless of whether you WISH to call that awareness "public or "private"), "you would IMMEDIATELY and justifiably 'fire your physician for that'" (ie you said "that would be grounds for immediate termination.".
So, despite your seeming reluctance to do so, thanks for identifying the fact that my point was completely correct: that if an employee (of the government or a business) REJECTS the operational principle of his employer and wants its OPPOSITE, the fact that "if they do it on their own time, on their own technology...and don't advertise their public employment" is NOT 'fine' ("sure" as you put it). Instead you yourself NOW admit it would NOT be fine but would be - as I explicitly pointed out - grounds for "immediate termination" (as YOU just explicitly concurred).
So thanks for confirming the fact your original statement was indeed QUITE false - as was my SOLE point (which you tried to evade with your equivocations over the definition of "private").
There is a continuum of what schadenfreude is acceptable. I felt joyful when Osama bin Laden was killed. While I am opposed to the death penalty in general, I felt no sorrow when Timothy McVeigh was executed. I was horrified when Ronald Reagan was shot, even though I strongly disagreed with his politics.
But I am profoundly uncomfortable with government being the decisionmaker as to what reactions, emotions or expressions are acceptable or not.
I am horrified that an entity -- whether private or government -- might continue to employ someone who celebrated the murder of someone who was merely exercising free speech.
It's not about disagreeing over politics. It's disagreeing over whether murder should be rejected.
Those who work with someone who praises violent criminal acts take note and counter them with your own words - face them squarely and tell them what you think, on and off the job in a determined and respectful way. Counter post, but do not harass why praising violent criminal acts is wrong.
As to the legality of the article's topic, well let the courts decide it, but remember free speech applies to all.
"But remember free speech applies to all."
But ADDITIONALLY remember free association and free trade etc - including the freedom to NOT associate and NOT trade - applies to all as well.
I have pointed out in replies to commenters above that Charlie Kirk called the kind of shooting which killed him a reasonable price to pay for 2A freedoms. Time to reemphasize that I disagree with what Kirk said. I have been an invariable and outspoken opponent of Kirk's justification for gun violence. If I had any power to make my advocacy the rule of the world, then Kirk would be alive today.
His comment was the equivalent of saying we accept car deaths as the price we pay for cars, or vaccine deaths as the price we pay for vaccines.
Guns save far more lives than they lose. Your ignorance is appalling.
We accept harms because of free speech because the alternative is worse.
"We accept harms because of free speech because the alternative is worse."
No. We accept "harms" because "harm" is NOT the standard when it comes to human interaction. "Consent" is the standard for human interaction. In other words, the individual's RIGHT to his own life and his own effort is THE standard when it comes to human interaction, which means one may NOT come in contact with (or make threats thereof) with another absent, or in contradiction to, that other's CONSENT. "Harm" doesn't enter the picture. In fact, "harm" may be the intentional (or at least knowingly possible) result of such consensual interactions, meaning the stopping of "harm" would be the VIOLATION of the individual's rights.
Consent, not "harm", is what distinguishes boxing from assault.
Consent, not "harm", is what distinguishes trade from theft.
Consent, not "harm", is what distinguishes kink from rap E.
Consent, not "harm", is what distinguishes employment from slavery.
Consent, not "harm", is what distinguishes assisted Sue is side from murder.
Put simply, we accept "harms" NOT because of some 'cost/benefit' analysis, as you claim here, but because we accept the fact of reality that the individual is the SOLE monopolistic owner of his OWN life and his OWN effort. Period.
Stephan,
Be realistic. You have nor does anyone else have such power.
An assassin might choose a knife or poison or whatever.
The idea that one abolishes liberty so that evil will disappear form the world is simply nonsense. It has never worked and never will as much as good people wish otherwise.
Nico, the idea that everyone is entitled to the latest and greatest advance in firepower served up by a totally preventable civilian arms race is dangerous nonsense.
It does nothing to abolish 2A liberty to permit lesser-powered firearms which were formerly judged sufficient, until the arms race obsoleted them. The progress of the arms race can be rolled back, and it ought to be.
Nor is there any abolition in liberty to point out that prior to relatively recent Supreme Court interpretations, the federally protected liberty was firmly guaranteed by the militia clause, and only less firmly otherwise. Until then, other gun liberties were mostly protected variously, state-by-state, which is the way policy ought to have continued.
It is in the nature of defensive arms, and always has been, that to maximize practical liberty consistent with public safety—which ought to be the objective—constraints must be tailored to locations. Firearms suitable to protect rural western domiciles can be wildly inappropriate for public arms carriage in a downtown metropolis on the eastern seaboard. The need to recognize that does not imply a corollary that all firearms are outlawed anywhere.
I say these things from the point of view of more practical experience in the actual use of firearms than at least a great many of the pro-gun advocates commenting here seem to have. The most vociferous advocates here express themselves in ways which I never heard from people long accustomed to bear arms in the field with intent to actually use them.
I think that difference in experience is important, and ought to inflect the weight given to arguments from differently-experienced advocates. There is no sign in this blog's gun-nut commentary of the chastening experience which teaches as nothing else can that gun mishaps are always a risk, and that no gun can be kept, let alone carried, without increasing that risk.
People experienced with arms know that, and typically show it by moderating their views about arms. They do not often make demands which if put in practice would amount to reckless and needless increases of public risk. In my estimate, demands of that sort come mostly from people who do not know from experience what they are talking about.
Appeal to authority and special pleading again.
RRWP — If you confront an important decision about which you are not yet informed, do you rely for the information you need on an appeal to authority, or on an appeal to ignorance?
Indeed you are right. He should have claimed your argument is "Appeal to Ignorance Masking as Authority".
PS. I am aware of a lot of people who have handled arms in the military, and are fierce defenders of the Second Amendment. Why am I supposed to reject their knowledge and experience, and embrace yours?
Stephen, a bolt action 5-round fixed magazine rifle hardly qualifies as the "latest and greatest advance in firepower". It's just a common hunting rifle -- militarily, the last war where it was "standard issue" was the Spanish American War.
And what's worse, assassinations have been committed in countries where even these guns are illegal.
And the fact that you don't understand these basic facts tells me that you are not to be trusted in the rest of your opinion, either.
And I have pointed out that the murder of Charlie Kirk, along with hundreds of thousands of Leftists celebrating it, followed by asking "who's next?" -- has only proven what he said to be true.
Because no matter how hard you try to assure us that "If [you] had any power to make [your] advocacy the rule of the world, then Kirk would be alive today" -- we now know full well that that is false. If you had power to do that, you and your friends would be stuffing Kirk and millions who agreed with him on cattle cars, sending them to their deaths.
No, it's perfectly clear now. The only thing that stands between monsters like you and your friends is the fact that so many of us have guns.
Oh, and before I forget: how did that gun ban work out for that Ukrainian refugee young woman who had been stabbed in the neck on a Charlottesville subway by a schizophrenic felon who should have been committed and treated years ago but had been let out again, on no-cash bail, just a month before?
Again, you guys are monsters, and it's becoming so obvious, even "normies" are beginning to notice.
People should not be fired. They should receive a stern lecture and maybe some counseling.
I've seen some shocking things written on Facebook and some of it was by my family members. They want to blame MAGA. One cousin posted a list of crimes where the attacker was identified as a Republican or MAGA or Trump supporter. They then said that there was no comparable list regarding liberals and Democrats. That may be because the media reaches to define people as right-wing or MAGA or Republicans whenever possible; if they can't then the crime disappears from view.
Sounds grand...if you've not been on the internet in the last 10 years, and don't know how nutpicking works.
Maybe some family therapy, though.
I just deleted Facebook. I would delete Messenger but that is the only way I can contact some people. There is too much ugliness there.
"People should not be fired. They should receive a stern lecture and maybe some counseling."
Why? When people CHEER murder, and hope for MORE murders, all because they don't like others EXERCISING their rights, EVERYONE has EVER right to exercise their OWN rights of free association and free trade etc and SHUN such EVlL creatures.
In other words, contrary to your demand here, there is NO *requirement* - no "should" - for ANYONE to have to continue to employ (aka associate with) animals who RIGHTEOUSLY and GLEEFULLY and GLOATINGLY declare 'I like and want murder!', any more than one "should" continue to employ people who righteously and gleefully and gloatingly declare 'I like and want the diddling of little kids!'
"nutpicking"
Gaslighto's new favorite word to dismiss other's comments
The idea that - 'as an employer' - a government dedicated to the DEFENSE of the individual's right to his OWN life and his OWN effort, must be forbidden from considering a person's idea that rights should be VIOLATED, not DEFENDED, when hiring or firing is lNSANE!
Put simply, ANY person who declares 'I like and want rap E!' or 'I like and want muder!' or 'I like and want the diddling of little kids!" (whether made in "public" or "private") rationally has NO place in a government whose sole purpose is to STOP such acts.
Do YOU think that your STATEMENTS are more compelling BECAUSE you randomly capitalize WORDS?
DN here vomits nothing but an ad hom, attacking STLYE because he is *impotent* to attack SUBSTANCE.
ABUSING THUG MUTED.
Just imagine the random capitalizations to be italics and you should be fine.
"to be italics and you should be fine"
Treating him as if he spoke out of innocent ignorance when, in fact, he has demonstrated malice, is unjust.
I must confess that it was supposed to be a subtle insult, but I suspect it went over his head.