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Noem v. Perdomo Is Grants Pass Redux
Can the government criminalize the state of being?
I continue to mull over Noem v. Perdomo. This case is different from recent emergency docket orders, which typically involve questions about administrative law and presidential power. Noem considers a more traditional constitutional dispute about the Fourth Amendment. In recent years, the Court has granted very few Fourth Amendment petitions. There is one case this year about the emergency-aid exception. So perhaps it is unusual for the Supreme Court to jump back into the CrimPro fray on the emergency docket.
But taking a step back, Noem may just represent where the current Court is on matters of criminal procedure. We have seen the Justices pivot to the right on a number of issues. But so far, the Fourth Amendment has not been affected. The last big Fourth Amendment case, Carpenter, was decided in 2018, while Justice Kennedy was still on the Court!
Where is the Roberts Court now on these issues? I think the most useful analogue to understand Noem may actually be City of Grants Pass v. Johnson. That case involved the Eighth Amendment, but the issues are related: can the state prohibit the "status" of being homeless? To be sure, the majority, per Justice Gorsuch, narrowly ruled that it was the conduct of camping that was bring criminalized. But I think Justice Sotomayor's dissent made the compelling point that people without homes have to sleep somewhere, and the state's law makes it a crime to simply be. As I put it, No homeless in the park.
The analogy between Grants Pass and Noem is apt. Under federal law, the mere status of being in the country illegally is an offense--not criminal, but the distinction doesn't matter here. There is no respite from this offense, which exists wherever an alien might be found--including while working. Justice Kavanaugh writes:
The interests of individuals who are illegally in the country in avoiding being stopped by law enforcement for questioning is ultimately an interest in evading the law. That is not an especially weighty legal interest.
I think what Justice Kavanaugh is saying here, is that the Fourth Amendment "reasonableness" inquiry must be different when the federal government is enforcing immigration laws. The fact that simply being illegal is itself an evasion of the law grants the government greater leeway in detaining suspected illegal aliens to check their immigration status. Two of the factors being considered are the person's apparent race or ethnicity, and whether they spoke Spanish with an accent. The government can consider these factors in the immigration context, even if they could not be considered in more routine law enforcement stops.
Mike Dorf wrote a post titled, "Working While Brown is the New Driving While Black." The title is provocative, to be sure, but I think it masks how the analysis here differs. A highway patrol officer should not consider a person's race, ethnicity, or language, when looking for traffic offenses, because none of those characteristics are themselves indicia of breaking traffic laws law. By contrast, factors like race, ethnicity, and language, combined with other factors, could be indicia of the person being in the United States in violation of immigration laws.
I do not think the Court is prepared to challenge longstanding precedents about racial profiling in traditional law enforcement contexts. To return to Dorf's post, a black person has every right to drive without being unlawfully detained based on their race. By contrast, according to Justice Kavanaugh, an illegal alien--or at least a person very likely to be an illegal alien--has no such right to not be detained. As Justice Kavanaugh explains, their interest in not being stopped is not "weighty."
Like in Grants Pass, Justice Sotomayor is in dissent pointing out the difficulties for people who lack the right to simply exist in their community--whether the homeless or illegal aliens. I think she effectively makes the policy argument, but the majority sees it differently.
Big picture, Justice Kavanaugh is signaling that the Court will allow the executive branch leeway to enforce federal immigration laws, even if past administrations failed to take these steps.
I highlighted this passage in my post yesterday:
To be sure, I recognize and fully appreciate that many (not all, but many) illegal immigrants come to the UnitedStates to escape poverty and the lack of freedom and opportunities in their home countries, and to make better lives for themselves and their families. And I understand that they may feel somewhat misled by the varying U. S.approaches to immigration enforcement over the last few decades. But the fact remains that, under the laws passedby Congress and the President, they are acting illegally by remaining in the United States—at least unless Congress and the President choose some other legislative approach tolegalize some or all of those individuals now illegally present in the country. And by illegally immigrating into and remaining in the country, they are not only violating the immigration laws, but also jumping in front of those noncitizens who follow the rules and wait in line to immigrate into the United States through the legal immigration process.
I think this passage, in a nutshell, summarizes how the Court will approach immigration cases. Justice Kavanaugh is at his best when he is explaining novel concepts that the Court hasn't yet gotten around to. Stay tuned till a case like this reaches the merits docket.
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Like in Grants Pass, Justice Sotomayor is in dissent pointing out the difficulties for people who lack the right to simply exist in their community--whether the homeless or illegal aliens. I think she effectively makes the policy argument, but the majority sees it differently.
Yes Sotomayor makes a policy argument - Thats about the only charitable thing that can be said with her legal analysis.
Joe_dallas : "Yes Sotomayor makes a policy argument...."
Apparently you didn't read her dissent and are trusting Blackman to characterize it honestly. That's not stellar judgement on your part, is it Joe_dallas? To bring you up to speed, the overwhelming majority of Sotomayor's opinion follows this reasoning (citations omitted) :
"The Fourth Amendment thus prohibits exactly what the Government is attempting to do here: seize individuals based solely on a set of facts that “describe[s] a very large category of presumably innocent” people. As the District Court correctly held, the four factors—apparent race or ethnicity, speaking Spanish or English with an accent, location, and type of work—are “no more indicative of illegal presence in the country than of legal presence.” The factors also in no way reflect the kind of individualized inquiry the Fourth Amendment demands. Allowing the seizure of any Latino speaking Spanish at a car wash in Los Angeles tramples the constitutional requirement that officers “must have a particularized and objective basis for suspecting the particular person stopped of criminal activity.”
There was a section where she discussed the difficulties Hispanic U.S. citizens are facing as a result of this large-scale racial round-up, but that doesn't match Blackman's description either. Meanwhile, if you want sententious policy warbling, you need to turn to Kavanaugh's opinion. Thus this clunker:
"To be sure, I recognize and fully appreciate that many (not all, but many) illegal immigrants come to the United States to escape poverty and the lack of freedom and opportunities in their home countries, and to make better lives for themselves and their families. And I understand that they may feel somewhat misled by the varying U. S. approaches to immigration enforcement over the last few decades."
And doesn't that deserve unpacking! First, we have Kavanaugh's crocodile tears at the end, whose saccharine phoniness can't quite obscure that it's a total crock, fact-wise : Trump's lawlessness on this issue is entirely different any previous president, most of whom maintained a passing familiarity with the Constitution even while in office.
So whatever bogus analogy or mythic narrative that's supposed to support, it arrives DOA. But what's really hilarious is Brett - furrow-browed - trying to work out how these Brown People think. Apparently "many" arrive in this country "to escape poverty and the lack of freedom and opportunities in their home countries, and to make better lives for themselves and their families." Me? I would have said that describes 97.625% of their sum number, Kavanaugh notwithstanding. Maybe he believes the rest are advanced troopers for his invading army fantasy. Right-wingers believe the stupidest things.
And, yes, Joe_dallas - that includes falling for Josh Blackman strawmen. Stupid rarely gets more stupid than that.....
I read her dissent - Its a policy argument
No I did not read Josh's comment other than the paragraph I reposted.
It was also a very common characteristic of Ginsburg. very often policy argument on what she wanted the law to be.
Joe_dallas : "I read her dissent - Its a policy argument"
That's total bullshit, but you have nothing better to offer. As so often, you've dug yourself down into a deep hole and are trying to brazen your way out. You should try to stop doing that.
Now, I freely admit to not knowing the intricacies of 4A constitutional jurisprudence. In my best DeForest Kelley voice: "I'm an Architect, damn it, not a lawyer". That's why Professor Kerr's post Monday was so interesting. He laid out the way Sotomayor and Kavanaugh each approached the fundamental meaning and history of the Fourth Amendment and how they differed. And nothing in his analysis of Sotomayor's opinion suggests it was about "policy" - except (of course) in the "policy" of Trump's DOJ to arrest people on no other basis than the color of the skin, the accent in their voice, and the jobs they work. That's all it takes for America's masked gestapo to disappear people off the street into some KZ half a country away. No other basis. No other evidence. No warrant. No probable cause. Just "working while Brown". Which is the very purest of Fourth Amendment problems to anyone more concerned about fundamental liberty than targeting & tormenting people with brown skin. And - yes - I understand you fall into the second category.
So you see, Joe_dallas, your argument is with Kerr, not me. Good luck with that.
https://reason.com/volokh/2025/09/08/supreme-court-lifts-injunction-in-los-angeles-immigration-enforcement-case/
"The analogy between Grants Pass and Noem is apt. Under federal law, the mere status of being in the country illegally is an offense--not criminal, but the distinction doesn't matter here. "
It does matter if every person in the country has 4th amendment rights regardless of citizenship. Terry stops involves reasonable suspicion of a *crime*. Kavanaugh spent a lot of time discussing this (due to the nature of the injunction). If ICE agents are doing roving patrols and stopping people they suspect of not being legal and mere presence in the country is not a *criminal* offense then what the f are we doing here?? Are we setting up a two track dual system where people who *look* illegal get less constitutional protections than those who don't?? What does that make of prior precedents with respect to whom constitutional rights apply to?
Typically, ICE have warrants to detain specific people. Or maybe there are already removal orders. But the case from LA is about warrantless roving patrols. Something the administration is promising to ramp up in Chicago, Boston, New Orleans, etc...
So politely - no. Kavanaugh butchered the factual record in making snide comments about how these roving patrols are conducted and what the agents are actually doing. Cuffing and stuffing 'brown looking people' isn't even a Terry stop per our Sup Ct case law. It's an arrest which requires the heightened level of proof to probable cause. Probable cause of what? THAT A CRIME IS BEING COMMITTED but again we need to go back to the very first point... mere presence in this country without legal status is not a *crime*. So again...what the fuck are we even talking about here??
Can armed masked agents snatch anybody up, handcuff them, throw them in a car and take them somewhere else and comply with ANY 4th amendment case law when all of this is done without a warrant?? OR are we left with more 4th amendment protections for white looking folks vs brown?? Are we seriously even debating this?
No, Blackman isn’t debating it. He’s a lawyer who will say anything to defend executive power when it’s a MAGA president.
This certainly would be less of an issue if the Biden administration had not be so lax in the enforcement of illegal immigration.
While the biden administration did not issue a formal invitation for the mass migration of illegal aliens into the US, word certainly got out that the biden was going to be lax in the enforcement.
ICE's thuggery and Kavanaugh's foolishness are Biden's fault. Right, Joe.
Is that the best you can do?
bernard11 10 minutes ago
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ICE's thuggery and Kavanaugh's foolishness are Biden's fault. Right, Joe.
Bernard - Typical - you lie about what I stated, then accuse me of being wrong based on your lie.
It's literally what you did - deflected to say the issue was Biden's fault.
You say 'biden' 3 times in that comment!
Gaslight-0 - you dont even try to be honest
As I stated, Bernard blatantly lied about what I stated, then claimed i was wrong based on Bernard's lie.
Effectively your are doing the same by not addressing my comment in a coherent and rational manner.
But Biden! lol.
Darwinnie
Did you complain or cheer when biden allowed the floodgates to open
You just blamed Biden again, despite having just denied doing so.
bernard11 4 minutes ago
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You just blamed Biden again, despite having just denied doing so.
Bernard - That is the 3rd time that you lied or grossly misstated what some one wrote.
Whatever you think you're writing, I don't think it's the same thing as what you're actually writing.
Either that or angry flounce has become your only move when challenged.
Honestly, my money's on column B.
I think all the brown citizens and other people here legally would disagree that being brown indicates they are committing a crime. For god’s sake Blackman.
Here's the rhetorical slight-of-hand in this post: "an illegal alien--or at least a person very likely to be an illegal alien--has no such right to not be detained. As Justice Kavanaugh explains, their interest in not being stopped is not 'weighty'."
That is also true of many other crimes. A drunk driver has no right not to be detained; her interest in not being stopped is not weighty. A person transporting cocaine has no right not to be detained; his interest in not being stopped is not weighty. In both cases, the status of the person--drunk and driving; possessing narcotics--is a continuing criminal act.
The Fourth Amendment is there to protect the *rest* of us from intrusions. That's why police need at least a pretextual violation to pull over drunk drivers (or valid checkpoint procedures). That's why it's illegal to stop anyone driving a van on the interstate to see if there are drugs on board. That's the *point* of the Fourth Amendment freedom.
So why would Blackman advocate a relaxed search and seizure standard for the "status" of illegal immigration or homelessness? I don't lose my freedom from baseless car stops just because the majority of drunk drivers are also white men driving at night.
Exactly bob! The 4th amendment's been beat down by so many exceptions its barely hanging on as is. This would be terrible escalation of expanding warrantless seizures/arrests to administrative and civil level matters.
Imagine beat cops cuffing and stuffing people for medical bills in collection or some other random thing. If it sounds ridiculous (which it does) that's the point. Also the point many people forget about sanctuary cities/states not honoring 'warrants' from ICE. It's because they are not *criminal* warrants. Any criminal warrants or detainers are in fact honored. Not civil. Our history and traditions have always made a distinction between the two (i.e, civil vs criminal). But apparently not anymore. Absolutely ridiculous.
In addition to his scholarly work, Professor Blackman contributes provocative posts to the Volokh Conspiracy, a law blog.
In an interview, Professor Blackman said his popular writing and his scholarship occupied different lanes. “When I’m writing sort of an advocacy piece, I’m trying to accomplish something, trying to make a point,” he said. “And for better or worse, in our ecosystem, the way you get attention is sometimes to use stronger language. There’s just no way around it.”
His scholarship, he said, was careful and deliberate.
Adam Liptak piece.
https://archive.ph/n2S04#selection-903.0-907.53
When you give the police the ability to violate civil rights when policing, everyone loses.
This ruling strips all Hispanics, legal or not, of their 4A protections.
Molly continues to spout lies out of frustration with what the Constitution and precedent actually say.
This was written for an audience of one. A lifetime appointment during good behavior will suit you, Josh.
"The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race." Parents Involved in Community Schools v. Seattle School Dist. No. 1, 551 U.S. 701, 748 (2007) (plurality opinion).
Unless, of course, the target of racial discrimination is a Spanish speaking Latino in the parking lot of Home Depot.
As I wrote on another thread, if anyone ever gives John Roberts an enema, the remains could likely be buried in a cigar box.
Charlie Kirk has been shot. Lets hope the shooter is charged with murder.
Thank goodness ICE is never wrong and never detains American citizens just living their lives.
..according to Justice Kavanaugh, an illegal alien--or at least a person very likely to be an illegal alien--has no such right to not be detained. As Justice Kavanaugh explains, their interest in not being stopped is not "weighty."
A person very likely to be an illegal alien--has no such right to not be detained??? WTF? That's ridiculous and offensive. I have a friend of Mexican descent whose family has been in the US for generations. He looks Hispanic, and speaks Spanish as well as English. Kavanaugh is telling him he has no right not be detained?
There are more than 25 million American citizens of Mexican descent. Let's say 10% of them look Mexican and speak Spanish. (That's probably an underestimate, and I'm not including people from other Latin countries.) So Kavanaugh and presumably Blackman want to take rights away from 2.5M citizens. Why not make them wear brown stars?
Not even Blackman's paraphrase of Kavanaugh says that an arbitrary Hispanic in the US "has no such right to not be detained." You're arguing against a straw man.
It says "a person very likely to be an illegal alien--has no such right to not be detained."
And who is "a person very likely to be an illegal alien?"
Answer: Someone of Hispanic ethnicity and speaks Spanish, especially if they work in a low-wage job. Interesting that those guideline refer to Spanish specifically. So if a Hispanic-looking guy speaking Spanish and and a blond blue-eyed guy speaking Polish are working the same job, who gets detained?
MP - its notable that Kavanaugh only uses the term "detain" or any other form of the word once when cites 8 USC 1357.
Bernard is simply on a roll lying about what someone writes.
He used the word as bernard quotes it...but not that often? That's your argument?!
Nope you are still wrong and you no clue what the argument is
A - read the opinion - What Bernard claimed he wrote is not what he wrote.
B - read the entire sequence - it might be possible that can find you mistake.
The statement isn't literally wrong; a person who is *very* likely to be an illegal alien doesn't have a right to not be detained, just like someone who is very likely to be a murderer doesn't have a right to not be detained. (Or, at least, the right is overridden by the state's prerogative to enforce the law.) If you're standing over a body with a bloody knife in your hand, you're getting detained even if you're innocent.
But being Hispanic and speaking Spanish does not make you *very* likely to be an illegal alien. That's where this breaks down.
"...Mike Dorf wrote a post titled, "Working While Brown is the New Driving While Black." ..."
Interesting. That was written a day or two after I posted here at the VC, making that exact point. I'm glad Dorf saw my post and ran with it.
SCOTUS today denied an application by South Carolina that has the effect of allowing a transgender student to continue using the restroom of their choice while litigating continues. All of the liberals joined the order denying the application, but not one of them explained their vote. Surely this means they’re all unprincipled, partisan, results-driven hacks who act arbitrarily. That’s how this works now, right?
Grants Pass was a bad case because homeless advocates chose a legal principle that was not a good fit. Better to argue that due process requires that obedience to the law be possible before punishment is imposed. But that's an as-applied defense.
"... whether they spoke Spanish with an accent."
Yeesh.
In any event, neither decision is criminalizing "being" but, rather, let's say the time, place or manner in which being (generally intentionally) manifests.
What about the person who has a pending asylum application, or other form of relief such as a marriage based petition; they most likely, after the statutory time period, have work authorization. Can this person be detained? Unfortunately, yes. Does this person have no such right to not be detained? They are now following the rules, have submitted applications for relief, and are working legally. I think they do have such a right not to be detained, but that is not what is happening. Let's also just say this person had no criminal record. Even more of a such right not to be detained. Now, when you add the racial ethnic angles, it is apparent that certain undocumented aliens are being profiled and detained just because they are easy targets. The question is not just so simple as does he have no such right to not be detained.
The basic fact here: "About 10 percent of the people in the Los Angeles region are illegally in the United States—meaning about 2 million illegal immigrants out of a total population of 20 million."
The fact that simply being illegal is itself an evasion of the law grants the government greater leeway in detaining suspected illegal aliens to check their immigration status.
Kavanaugh can't get to the end of one sentence without stumbling into a giant contradiction. Or maybe its the immigration uncertainty principle at work—Schrödinger's van in the parking lot. The contents are both legal and illegal until you open it.
There is a more basic issue. The 4th Amendment, like the 2nd, by its terms applies only to “the people.” Illegal aliens are not members of “the people.” So they have no more right for their persons, papers, and effects to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures than they do to buy guns. And the constitutionality of the statute making it a crime for illegal aliens to possess firearms has consistently been upheld. The 6th Circuit upheld a conviction of an illegal alien for posession of a firearm just this past July, in US v. Carbajal-Flores.
It’s a giant hole in the 4th Amendment, big enough to drive a glacier’s worth of ICE through. It permits not just arbitrary stops but arbitrary arrests.
The Constitution permits the United States to be quite draconian with aliens if it wants to.
Step 2, I suppose, is that the array of attributes that indicates someone is probably in the country illegally is entirely within the discretion of the executive branch and not subject to judicial review.
Just as is, if they ultimately have their way, the determination that someone suspected of being in the country illegally can be deported without cause to an intentionally designed torture prison. Or saving everybody time, blown up on a boat in international waters.
Ignoring the concerns of people here in the country illegally, definitely nothing in this that should bother a law abiding U.S. citizen.