The Volokh Conspiracy
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The University Presidents Who Want to Fix Universities Before They Get Fixed
University Presidents are divided on how to respond to pressure from the Trump Administration. Are their concerns too little, too late?
For well over a decade I have been of the view that universities need to fix themselves, or they will get fixed--and that getting fixed is likely to be more destructive than restorative. Until recently, I held this view with regard to public universities in red and purple states, but I probably underestimated the extent to which universities had alienated large portions of the public and undermined their own reservoirs of political support--and did not anticipate the focus with which some Trump Administration officials would target universities. To be sure, the Supreme Court's SFFA decision, which effectively declared the de facto admissions policies at most elite universities to be illegal, and the wave of campus anti-Semitism only made universities more vulnerable.
The Atlantic has an interesting article on the growing divide among some university presidents about how to respond to the Trump Administration and current political pressures. On one side are folks like Princeton's Chris Eisgruber, who seem to think there is nothing wrong and that universities can and should ride out the storm. (Those we might call the ostriches of academia.) On the other are those like Daniel Diermeier of Vanderbilt and Andrew Martin of Washington University, who recognize that universities need to reform themselves. The latter camp accept the charge made by folks like Michael Clune that universities have brought much of their current trouble upon themselves.
This is how the article describes the "reformers":
The Reformists believed that higher education had a problem even before Trump was reelected. They watched as conservative speakers were shouted down or disinvited from campuses. They saw professional organizations publicly commit themselves to positions that sounded more like activism than scholarship. (The academics who make up the American Anthropological Association, to cite one example, announced in 2020 that their "research, scholarship, and practice" should be placed "in service of dismantling institutions of colonization and helping to redress histories of oppression and exploitation.") After the Hamas invasion of southern Israel on October 7, 2023, the reformists watched as anti-Israel protesters on other campuses occupied buildings, erected encampments, and, in some cases, engaged in overt anti-Semitism. "You can't look at what happened on many university campuses last academic year and conclude that everything is just fine," Martin told me.
Early last year, Martin and Diermeier began working on a Statement of Principles for higher education. "If research universities are to pursue the truth wherever it lies, they cannot have a political ideology or pursue a particular vision of social change," they wrote. Their university boards adopted the principles as official policy in the fall of 2024, before the presidential election. "Our view was, we have to proactively work on the reform of education, which meant most importantly to be firmly committed to knowledge creation and transmission," Diermeier, who previously served as provost of the University of Chicago, told me.
Note that Martin and Diermeier (like Clune) expressed this view before the Trump Administration took office -- but that the Trump Administration's efforts make reform even more urgent.
The reformers think the resistance presidents are delusional for believing that their problems will go away when Trump does. They see the president's attacks as symptomatic of a larger issue. Polling shows that confidence in American higher education has cratered in recent years, especially among Republicans. "The fundamental fact here is that we have never been in worse shape in my lifetime," Diermeier told me. The reformer presidents, who tend to be in red or purple states, think the resistance leaders are trapped in liberal echo chambers. "It's clear that the bipartisan support has eroded," Martin told me. "It's really misguided to think that what's happening in higher education is a blip and that we're going to return to where we were before."
He and his allies believe that universities should have started cleaning up their act years ago. Now they're playing catch-up, and can't expect to stop just because Trump will someday leave office. . . .
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I probably underestimated the extent to which universities had alienated large portions of the public and undermined their own reservoirs of political support
That's certainly one way to describe what happened. Not a correct way, mind you, but *a* way.
No, it's a pretty accurate way to describe it. It would be bad enough for public institutions to pick a side in a 50-50 nation, but when it comes to the politics of racial preferences, the US is more of a 70-30 nation, (Racial preferences are opposed by a majority even in 'blue' states like California.) and they picked the 30.
Your worldview, where disagreeing with you can only be in bad faith, does not allow for institutions that don't pick a side.
You, and MAGA generally, are too narrow and partisan to to credibly ding anyone for not being neutral. There is no neutral in your world.
Isn't that a standard notion in left-wing politics? That you're either part of the solution or part of the problem?
The problem for the universities here is that the public has rejected racial preferences even as (some of) the universities have gone all in on them. They're on a moral crusade, but the numbers are in the opposing camp.
Yeah, there are absolutely left-wingers who take that view!
And if they came around and lamented that universities weren't neutral enough I'd ding them too.
Don't pretend what Trump is doing to universities has some kind of public mandate. This is MAGA anti-intellectualism.
Just look at how many facts you need to make up and assume to pretend this is legitimate.
Isn't that a standard notion in left-wing politics? That you're either part of the solution or part of the problem?
Yeah, there are absolutely left-wingers who take that view!
I realized that about 10 years ago, maybe 15, some genius, and I'm not being sarcastic, decided to convert the left's modern cause (later loosely described as "woke") by inhaling things from religion, often bad things, because they're proven to work.
"If you're not with us, you're against us." This is from the "How to be an anti-racist" book. You can't just sit by idly, hands off, not my problem, I gave at the office. You must be pressed into service.
It is also from religion since time immemorial. There are no other gods, other religions. Just lies made up by the Devil to deceive you. No atheists. You're deluded by more of Satan's lies.
If you are not with active efforts at saving souls, you are doing the Devil's work.
Original sin Everyone inherits the sin of Eve being tempted by the serpent. Even if you live sinless, a theoretical but functionally impossible thing, you're still guilty, hellbound guilty, because of someone else's misdeeds.
So, too, slavery in the US. Forget any pride in your ancestors being mostly the ones who ended slavery, no, feel disingegrating pride for that
Imagine instead the assholes. That original sin is what you should feel.
"If a village won't listen, and has hard hearts, leave them, and shake the dust off your sandals as you do." Better yet, social ostracism. Chase them out. You don't leave. Make them leave.
I make no judgement on the motivated politics behind these efforts, only acknowledging the genius who realized using the tried and true strategies from religion might be useful.
It's too late Gaslighto -- half of America is willing to tolerate higher ed while the other half wants to bulldoze it flat and salt the earth -- neither is willing to continue funding the largess....
What do you call a thousand unemployed tenured professors?
-- A good start....
"Not a correct way,"
Conservatives are a "large portion" of the public, no?
No. Anyone to the right of Lenin is a wrecker, a kulak, a parasite. Not a decent member of society.
They are. They just have no reason to care about Harvard except that some guy who inherited billions from his dad needs an "elite" to wage political war on.
Trump didn't start the conservative dislike of Harvard.
He's following here, not leading.
Did you ever stop to think that Harvard and other "elite" schools may have started it because of their dislike of conservatives?
Last year I had to attend a couple of classes at a local branch of a State University. The amount of bias against anybody who showed any like of conservatism was amazing. Vance was having a rally at a local VFW Post. Official e-mails were sent stating that attending his rally was not an excuse for missing class and there would be consequences for it. I didn't have class that day and a bunch of us took a half day off and attended. Three days later I get an e-mail from a campus group showing a picture of me at the Rally and the statement that my instructors would be notified. My reply wasn't polite. A few weeks later, Kamila was in Pittsburgh. There were busses from the Campus and several Instructors gave extra credit for attendance. I'm pretty sure Harvard and the others EARNED the conservatives dislike of them.
Official e-mails were sent stating that attending his rally was not an excuse for missing class and there would be consequences for it
Really? You were personally called out for going to a Vance rally by a school you were taking 'a couple of classes' at?
"Did you ever stop to think that Harvard and other "elite" schools may have started it because of their dislike of conservatives?"
Of course. Just like labor unions and mass media, they went from mostly left leaning to completely left and made it clear conservatives were not wanted. Except for rich ones who foolishly donated.
See, like everything else, its only a culture war once conservatives notice and strike back.
I don't understand this anecdote. What does Vance have to do with conservatism?
Are you sure this was you and not your cousin's boyfriend's old frat buddy?
No, most of the pubic is in the center either center left or center right. At universities just like everywhere else, the loudest noise is from the extreme ends of the political spectrum. Most students are going to the university to get an education and hopefully a job after graduation. Likewise most of the professors don't make a big deal of their politics. I am guessing we have no idea about the politics of engineering, science and agriculture professors. I would think most business school professors trend conservative in their politics. My Alma Mater, the UW - Madison has about 50k students enrolled and only a few hundred were protesting.
Notice, again, that you provide no alternative. You insult, you destroy, you never create or improve.
You throw tantrums like little kids because mommy won't give you more cookies.
Look who's talking.
IF the "universities" are truthful about their objectives, and about their missions, all they have to do is stop taking federal money (also known as tax dollars).
No federal grants, no federal research, no students using federal loans, just run the university they way they want to using their own money.
Simple.
If the government wants certain things done, it should be free to do them itself. Or it can pay a private organisation to do them. But given that the US has entered the post-science era, whereby things like vaccines and climate research are deemed superfluous, I can see why you might think that not paying universities any money might be a viable idea.
Why do you think the government started the Land Grant Universities -- which ARE the Government "do[ing] them itself."
Vaccines are fine.
Climate research is a less scientifically rigorous version of Scientology.
Rigorous.
The government violates the First Amendment if it conditions funding (e.g., research) on how a recipient spends its own money (e.g., curriculum). See FCC v. League of Women Voters (1984).
On how a recipient lawfully spends its own money. The government is still free to condition funding on not breaking laws.
Has there been a finding of law breaking via due process?
STUDENTS FOR FAIR ADMISSIONS, INC. v. PRESIDENT AND FELLOWS OF HARVARD COLLEGE
"Held: Harvard’s and UNC’s admissions programs violate the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment."
What the law is in that area was *established* in that case, Harvard thought they were following Grutter. Has there been a finding that Harvard has violated the law as established in SFFA since that case was decided?
You mean, has there been a finding of law breaking since the finding of law breaking?
Give the Trump DOJ a few months, and I expect there will be.
They can’t be guilty of breaking the law before it was established.
Gotta break it to you: The 14th amendment was established about 140 years ago.
Even the Grutter Court was clear that its tolerance of racial preferences was temporary: "We expect that 25 years from now, the use of racial preferences will no longer be necessary to further the interest approved today."
That was a clear warning to start phasing them out, because the Court wasn't going to tolerate them for much longer. Harvard didn't take the warning.
When SCOTUS overturns a prior holding the people following the prior holding aren’t guilty of breaking the law. Fisher held race could be a factor, SFFA overturned that seven years later, Harvard wasn’t breaking the law by following Fisher during that period, they’d only be breaking the law if they kept doing what SFFA said they couldn’t *after* SFFA
It was literally a finding that they had been violating the EPC of the 14th amendment, which last time I looked was "law".
Maybe you don't get penalized if you're the first person to be notified that the Court has changed its mind, or, as in this case, finally run out of patience. But you've still been breaking the law, that is literally what the Court ruling against you signifies.
By your logic states that followed Plessy were breaking the law before Brown was decided, states that didn’t recognize gay marriage were breaking the law before Ogberfell (and many other examples could be given whenever the Court overturns precedent). You can’t break the law when it hasn’t been established, SFFA overturned Fisher, those following Fisher up to that point were following the law, not breaking it. SFFA established new law, Harvard is only guilty of breaking the law if they did what SFFA said was prohibited after SFFA was decided.
Yes, exactly: The ruling against you is a ruling that you have broken the law. Literally, that's what it is. The Court didn't rule that Harvard would break the law if they continued to discriminate, they ruled that Harvard had broken the law by discriminating. Read it, they're not using the future tense, they're using the past tense.
The Court has no power to rule what the law will be next time, only what it is now and was at the time of the act being ruled on.
Sure, maybe when the Court rules that "We have always been at war with EastAsia", when before they'd ruled that we weren't, they're actually 'creating' new law. But they always say that they're just announcing what the law was all along, because they're not actually entitled to create new law, just to rule on what the law IS.
And, anyway, as I said above, Grutter expressly came with an expiration date, it was a warning that the Court's patience with racial preferences was wearing thin, and it would not much longer refrain from ruling them unconstitutional. Sensible people started planning how to phase them out, after that warning.
Harvard planned, instead, on how to entrench them.
This is another example of BrettLaw, isn’t it?
Can any lawyers who actually know what they’re talking about help here?
If a SCOTUS precedent is overturned, is it considered “breaking the law” for someone to have followed the former precedent? Assuming they have changed their behavior to conform to the new precedent.
I suggest you re-read Students for Fair Admissions; The Court ruled that Harvard was even in violation of Grutter.
" Twenty years have passed since Grutter, with no end to race-
based college admissions in sight. But the Court has permitted race-
based college admissions only within the confines of narrow restrictions: such admissions programs must comply with strict scrutiny, may never use race as a stereotype or negative, and must—at some point—end. Respondents’ admissions systems fail each of these criteria and must therefore be invalidated under the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. "
Wasn't your point that Trump could stop funding research as a result (which is a penalty)?
The difficulty you two are having is that "breaking the law" is a pop culture idiom, not a legal term of art.
Breakin the law! Breakin the law!
So you really think the states that did not recognize gay marriage before Ogberfell or that made sodomy illegal before Lawrence were breaking the law the whole time? They were following Bowers and Baker.
Also, that was decided two years ago, so what’s up with withholding current funds? I mean, by this logic the University of Texas and Michigan were breaking the law before Grutter and Fisher, so could Trump with old money to them now for that? There would need to be a finding Harvard is breaking the law now.
Brett is just making this all up. There's no universal "breaking the law" exception to federal funding. This is VC, not Night Court.
"So you really think the states that did not recognize gay marriage before Ogberfell or that made sodomy illegal before Lawrence were breaking the law the whole time? "
In the judiciary's usual "We have always been at war with EastAsia" sense, sure.
But, again, you're arguing that Harvard didn't break the law when that's EXACTLY what the Court ruled they had done. So take your complaint to them.
The Court didn’t say it broke the law, it said Harvard’s admissions policy must therefore be invalidated under the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.
"Maybe you don't get penalized if you're the first person to be notified that the Court has changed its mind"
You can sometimes be penalized even in the criminal context, if the change was predictable.
"The Court didn’t say it broke the law, it said Harvard’s admissions policy must therefore be invalidated under the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment."
So, we're pretending that, when Harvard violated the 14th amendment, the 14th amendment wasn't "law"?
"When SCOTUS overturns a prior holding the people following the prior holding aren’t guilty of breaking the law."
There's a decent analysis here.
It turns out the issue, in civil cases, is less than straightforward.
Trivially, you're not legally guilty until you've been individually adjudicated guilty. So, trivially, when SCOTUS overturns a prior holding, only the people involved in that case are guilty of breaking the law, until others get taken to court.
But, way, way up the thread, Malika asked of Harvard, "Has there been a finding of law breaking via due process?", and I pointed out that the Supreme court, no less, had found them guilty of violating the 14th amendment.
Is the 14th amendment not law? Is violating it not breaking that law? So, yes, they had been.
Then the fallback position was that Harvard wasn't violating Grutter, and could hardly be blamed for not anticipating that the Court would change its mind about Grutter.
Except that Grutter itself said that it wasn't good forever, the Court came right out and said that they expected people to stop that sort of discrimination within 25 years, so, yeah, actually Harvard COULD be blamed for not anticipating that the Court would change it's mind: They came right out and told everybody they would, and when it would be at the latest.
And except that in SFFA the Court ruled that Harvard had been violating not just SFFA, but Grutter itself, would have been in violation even by the standard they'd promulgated 22 years earlier.
Brett, the language you quote does not appear in the text of the opinion of the Court. (It does appear in the syllabus. The syllabus constitutes no part of the opinion of the Court but has been prepared by the Reporter of Decisions for the convenience of the reader. See United States v. Detroit Timber & Lumber Co., 200 U.S. 321, 337. )
At the time of the universities' conduct, their affirmative action programs were in accord with then-prevailing law, including Regents of the University of California v. Bakke, 438 U.S. 265 (1978), Grutter v. Bollinger, 539 U.S. 306 (2003), Fisher v. University of Texas, 570 U.S. 297 (2013), and Fisher v. University of Texas, 579 U.S. 365 (2016).
It's true that that exact phrase is from the syllabus. That's not much of a gotcha, when this one does appear in the decision itself:
"But we have permitted race-based admissions only
within the confines of narrow restrictions. University pro-
grams must comply with strict scrutiny, they may never use
race as a stereotype or negative, and—at some point—they
must end. Respondents’ admissions systems—however
well intentioned and implemented in good faith—fail each
of these criteria. They must therefore be invalidated under
the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment."
So, not only did the Court, in the decision itself, hold that Harvard was violating the 14th amendment, they held that Harvard had violated the standard they had promulgated in Grutter. They weren't caught by a change of opinion at the Court, they were failing to comply with past rulings.
Trump just wants to enforce the law and has no gripes about the viewpoints expressed by the universities.
I needed a good laugh today.
Yeah, the Trumpists can convince themselves of the most ridiculous things. That he is a principled person who does things for the good of the country is the purest example of this.
No, Trump doesn't "just" want to enforce the law, and he does have gripes about their viewpoints.
But he IS enforcing the law, and their viewpoints being odious doesn't immunize their violations of the law.
I feel this was pretty much inevitable as Republicans slid further and further into anti-intellectualism. It doesn't work for universities to try to pander to that.
If America has decided to give up the mantle of superpower to China, there's simply not much role for American research universities in that world.
Is it possible that some universities have gone too far with their politics while at the same time Trump should butt out?
What policies? DEI? Sure! DEI didn't work, everybody knows that and is adjusting. That would've happened with or without MAGA.
But DEI wasn't even mentioned in the OP. This seems to be mostly about cracking down on pro-Palestinian voices as a favor to Trump (and donors). No, I don't think (even more) pro-Jewish and anti-Palestinian policies are what universities have needed all along.
The linked article's focus was on one-sided political activism in general (the reformers complained long before Oct 7), not specifically Israel.
It seems ok to me for universities to fight against anti-intellectualism generally. It's not going to work out for universities to try to appease the right by being fact-agnostic.
anti-Palestinian policies
Can you name any schools that have decidedly "anti-Palestinian" policies? Which ones and how are those policies expressed? I can't think of any such schools, though I can think of schools that can fairly be characterized as "pro-Palestinian, San Diego State, etc.
Is there something suspect in a school being known as "anti-Palestinian" or "pro-Palestinian"? It seems to me there is, especially when they become roiled by the politics, since political "activism" isn't the nature of these schools' missions, is it?
If the most affected schools hadn't become involved in political activism, especially around the I-P conflict, might they have spared themselves of the trouble they find themselves in? Why should they accept what they have been targeted with by way of disruptive protests since they don't have "foreign policies"
If the most affected schools hadn't become involved in political activism, especially around the I-P conflict, might they have spared themselves of the trouble they find themselves in?
The passive voice in service of making a fascistic attack look like a random spate of bad weather?
I don't think anybody on OUR side is describing October 7th as a random spate of bad weather.
All of the sane people have either retired or left.
It's time to simply nuke the universities.
Higher education has become a grotesque pig trough where obscenely bloated administrations and pseudo academics gorge themselves on tax dollars like a disgusting sounder of swine. Completely cut the flow of tax dollars until they start closing departments outside of STEM and then cut some more. The tactic will reveal a 10:1 ratio of fat, useless employees on campus to worthwhile researchers. Then sit back and listen to the choir of credentialed idiots and charlatans ranting that every cent of government funding is spent under strict scrutiny and provides inestimable benefit to the nation.
The university-industrial complex is the most dangerous internal threat to the United States with its advocacy of Islamists, socialism, Marxism, judicial tyranny, and social theory detached from reality.
Your view is unAmerican. Our Founders would be aghast at an educational system limited only to STEM. They knew the value of studying history, philosophy, political economy, and other liberal arts subject.
You are ignorant regarding the facts. The founding fathers believed that universities existed with a primary function to educate preachers. Please teach yourself about the establishment of Yale and Harvard. If you want to student history and philosophy, then do so without the aid of tax dollars. The founding fathers recognized no right to an education. Horace Mann and public education emerged decades after the founding, and then public education pertaining only to grammar school education not higher education. Please look up the number of doctorate degrees in history and philosophy compared to the number of positions available for them. Universities today are degree mills to fund bloated faculties. The first massive federal expansion of higher education was exactly focused on STEM degrees, the Morrill Act of the Civil War era.
You claim to judge who is American and advocate history, but you are ignorant of America and its history.
You could use some history education. Jefferson founded the University of Virginia, Franklin the University of Philadelphia,John Witherspoon was the first president of Princeton, Lewis Morris was on the first board of regents for the University of New York, etc. John Adams wrote the Massachusetts state constitution in 1780 and included this provision:
Massachusetts Constitution of 1780, CH. 5, SEC. 2
Wisdom and knowledge, as well as virtue, diffused generally among the body of the people, being necessary for the preservation of their rights and liberties; and as these depend on spreading the opportunities and advantages of education in the various parts of the country, and among the different orders of the people, it shall be the duty of legislatures and magistrates, in all future periods of this commonwealth, to cherish the interests of literature and the sciences, and all seminaries of them; especially the university at Cambridge, public schools and grammar schools in the towns; to encourage private societies and public institutions, rewards and immunities, for the promotion of agriculture, arts, sciences, commerce, trades, manufactures, and a natural history of the country; to countenance and inculcate the principles of humanity and general benevolence, public and private charity, industry and frugality, honesty and punctuality in their dealings; sincerity, good humor, and all social affections, and generous sentiments, among the people.
The New Hampshire state constitution of 1784 adopted this same idea:
Art.] 83. [Encouragement of Literature, etc.; Control of Corporations, Monopolies, etc.]
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Knowledge and learning, generally diffused through a community, being essential to the preservation of a free government; and spreading the opportunities and advantages of education through the various parts of the country, being highly conducive to promote this end; it shall be the duty of the legislators and magistrates, in all future periods of this government, to cherish the interest of literature and the sciences, and all seminaries and public schools, to encourage private and public institutions, rewards, and immunities for the promotion of agriculture, arts, sciences, commerce, trades, manufactures, and natural history of the country
Let me point out your numerous historical errors.
Princeton University, originally founded as the College of New Jersey in 1746, was established by New Light Presbyterians with the primary intention of educating ministers.
There is no such thing as the University of New York. New York University was founded in 1831 long after the founding.
There is no such thing as the University of Philadelphia and never has been. What else are you going to lie about?
The Massachusetts Constitution was written by committee that included John Adams, Sam Adams, and James Bowdoin. A state constitution is not a university by the way. A simple fact you seem unaware of.
You really could use those history classes you want to defund!
University of New York
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Regents_of_the_University_of_the_State_of_New_York
University of Philadelphia:
In the fall of 1749, Benjamin Franklin, a Founding Father and polymath in Philadelphia, circulated a pamphlet, "Proposals Relating to the Education of Youth in Pensilvania," his vision for what he called a "Public Academy of Philadelphia".[25]
On June 16, 1755, the College of Philadelphia was chartered, paving the way for the addition of undergraduate instruction.[26]
As to Princeton:
The founders aimed for the college to have an expansive curriculum to teach people of various professions, not solely ministerial work.[23][21]
With his presidency, Witherspoon focused the college on preparing a new generation of both educated clergy and secular leadership in the new American nation.[36][37]
So it was several Founding Fathers that wrote the MA constitution, that strengthens my point. No one is saying a state Constitution is a university, I pointed out that the Founders that wrote it very much, contrary to your assertion that they believed “that universities existed with a primary function to educate preachers” they actually belied “ it shall be the duty of legislatures and magistrates, in all future periods of this commonwealth, to cherish the interests of literature and the sciences, and all seminaries of them; especially the university at Cambridge.”
Since you think the opinion journal called Wikipedia is an authority set your eyes on this kid.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_New_York
There is no real institution in the United States that bears the exact name University of New York.
When you do a wikipedia search for University of Philadelphia NOTHING comes up.
Please continue to make a fool of yourself. Free entertainment is its own reward.
Why don't you donate some money to the "University of New York" or "Philadelphia University." You could even enroll there and get an education befitting you!
You’re quite dim. Those were institutions names in the late 18th century, names and institutions change (University of Philadelphia became Penn for example). My quotes are from Wikipedia entries.
So you were off base on everything.
LOL!
Yes, your many errors are quite comical.
What Malika said. But also, I don't know what you think this proves:
The founding fathers believed that universities existed with a primary function to educate preachers.
These days, the secular and religious spheres of knowledge are pretty distinct, but that's a modern development... and a largely American invention, given our prominent Anti-Establishment Clause.
But at the time, the clergy were the historians and philosophers... and scientists! All knowledge was God's knowledge. So saying that universities existed primarily to educate the ministry is like saying they existed primarily to educate the educated... in other words, nothing at all.
Not to mention... the church at the time got tons of public money. This was all highly subsidized, even then. Nations have always wanted to be the smartest (until MAGA came along to celebrate ignorance, of course).
When you want to burn something down, it’s best to pretend it’s made of straw.
Let’s just say that dividing the world into people who agree with you and people who are sticking their head in the sand is a self-serving fallacy. There are people who think that Trump is grasping some potentially legitimate issues regarding university excesses as pretexts for taking universities over and using them to promote and serve oligarchy.
Sure, there are people who think that. It's a silly position, for multiple reasons.
For one thing, the fight is between two competing oligarchies, not oligarchy and non-oligarchy...
You see Trump in every shadow. He haunts your every breath. What a pathetic existence.
This is uncommonly silly, like it or not it’s just a fact that the Trump administration is taking on many universities right now.
The Federal Government is suspending government funds to institutions that promote anti-Semitism, racial discrimination known as DEI and CRT, and lead assaults on women rights in clear violation of Title IX.
You too lead a pathetic existence governed by boogeymen.
How is it haunting one’s mind to realize that the Trump administration is, in fact, taking on many universities? You’re parroting a line that makes no sense here.
Yep, "Trump" keeps haunting you.
How do? Because I know he’s taking on universities? Your parroting is silly
On one side are folks like Princeton's Chris Eisgruber, who seem to think there is nothing wrong and that universities can and should ride out the storm. (Those we might call the ostriches of academia.) On the other are those like Daniel Diermeier of Vanderbilt and Andrew Martin of Washington University, who recognize that universities need to reform themselves.
I think that there are a lot more than two sides that university presidents fall into. There are also the public university presidents and boards of regents or whatever that are chosen (whether directly or indirectly) by governors that want people in charge of state universities that align with their worldview and politics.
In Florida, the state university system board in June rejected longtime academic Santa Ono for the presidency at the University of Florida, despite a unanimous vote of approval by the school’s own Board of Trustees. The unprecedented reversal followed criticism from conservatives about Ono’s past support for DEI programs.
That followed the conservative makeover of New College of Florida, a small liberal arts school once known as the state’s most progressive. After Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis appointed a group of conservatives to its governing board, many faculty left, including Amy Reid, who now manages a team focused on higher education at the free-expression group PEN America.
Then, there are the university presidents that might believe in what they had been doing, but they feel like they need to cave in to the threats from the Trump administration.
Finally, there might be some mix of all of these thoughts and motivations existing simultaneously in the same university president.
Prof. Adler,
You excluded these possibilities to focus only on the situations that fit what you wanted to discuss. At least, that is how it looks to me.
America's research institutions are world leaders at the frontier of knowledge in science, math and technology, but this is greatly threatened by Trump's recent defunding actions.
Across town from me, Terry Tao (a UCLA mathematician who is arguably the closest modern analogue to Gauss, Newton, or Archimedes in the breadth and depth of his productivity and understanding) noted in his blog yesterday that the Institute of Pure and Applied Mathematics of which he is an incoming Director was impacted by an abrupt suspension of NSF funding to UCLA, and that his personal NSF grant is also currently suspended. (Perhaps not coincidentally, the one posting on Tao's personal blog that strayed into politics back in 2015-2016 was highly critical of Trump).
Concerns about DEI and more generally the inappropriate politicization of U.S. academia are justified and need addressing, but doing so by wholesale slashing and burning of the system seriously damages not just the U.S., but - what deserves much more consideration than it gets these days - the entire human enterprise.
My own opinion is that given that 27% of federal spending is borrowed, and interest on the debt is 23% of federal revenues, "wholesale slashing and burning of the system" is actually in order.
That's at 3.5% interest rate, roughly. Back in the 80's it briefly hit about 15%, if it went back to that 100% of federal revenues would have to be devoted to debt servicing. As it is, just the fact that all of the interest is being borrowed means we're facing exponentially rising debt carrying costs.
So, screw stuff that would be nice to have, at this point the federal government should only be buying existential necessities, it has to shed expenses. We need to reduce federal spending by at least 30% just to stop the situation from getting worse!
Federal science funding is a trivial portion of the total. Until someone is putting entitlements and defense spending on the table (along with actually raising revenue), you can tell that any of their objections to spending that are deficit-related are completely pretextual.
Also: if you don't like the deficit, maybe stop voting for the party that keeps exploding it?
"Federal science funding is a trivial portion of the total. "
That's not how you dare think about things when you're this deep underwater.
"Also: if you don't like the deficit, maybe stop voting for the party that keeps exploding it?"
That would be both of them, in case you hadn't noticed.
"That's not how you dare think about things when you're this deep underwater."
Yes it is. If your mortgage payments are double your income, cutting out your daily latte isn't going to make a difference. If someone in massive debt told you they were trying to fix their budget by entirely focusing on trivial portions of their spending you'd tell them they were an idiot, not praise them for doing the hard work.
"That would be both of them, in case you hadn't noticed."
Nope. Look at the overall results of each Presidency. Democrats consistently decrease the deficit over their Presidencies, and Republicans consistently increase it:
Reagan
1981: $79B
1988: $155B
Bush I:
1989: $153B
1992: $290B
Clinton:
1993: $255B
2000: -$236B (surplus)
Bush II:
2001: -$128B (surplus)
2008: $459B
Obama:
2009: $1.4T
2016: $585B
Trump:
2017: $665B
2020: $3.132T
Biden:
2021: $2.772T
2024: $1.8T
At some point, you can't wish away the pattern.
The pattern I see is that, except for a few years during the fight over impeaching Clinton, every last one of them ran too large a deficit.
You don't recall Bush's famous ploy?
Tax Cuts I: "The government has too much money! Let's give it back!"
Tax Cuts II: "The government doesn't have enough money! Let's spur the economy!"
Perhaps the core problem here is that half the country has been conditioned to think that we can have no taxes and no deficit!
Us lefties have our eye on tariffs. The protectionism aspects are horrifying of course, as is their regressive nature, but they are raising a lot of money. Maybe we'll start looking for more hidden tax possibilities since regular taxes have gotten so politically impossible.
At this point, there aren't enough cuts to cut our way out, as you've said yourself.
Anyway, one thing we can all agree on is ending farm subsidies. Yeah?
Hidden "emergency" tax possibilities, I should add. That's a nice touch don't you think.
"The pattern I see is that, except for a few years during the fight over impeaching Clinton, every last one of them ran too large a deficit."
And you keep voting for the guys who *increase* it during their terms. Shocking that the lesson they've learned is not to worry about it.
Last time I checked the House of Representatives controlled spending.
That's not how you dare think about things when you're this deep underwater.
When the plan you seem to like, "wholesale slashing and burning of the system," doesn't even touch defense spending, SS, or Medicare, that is, half of all federal spending, then I agree with jb. It isn't the least bit believable that either you or the Trump MAGA/GOP really care about the debt when you won't lift a finger to cut a dime from the biggest parts of the budget. The Republican rhetoric over the debt and deficits for more than 30 years looks like an excuse to cut the specific programs that they don't like. They seem to know that they won't persuade a majority of the country that those programs don't benefit the people. So, the only way to get away with cutting things that a large majority of the people benefit from, without getting backlash from sizeable chunk of their own base, is to argue that we can't afford it.
But if they really believed that, then they would actually be cutting everything, since that is the only way to get the political backing to truly reduce deficits. If the pain of spending cuts doesn't fall on everyone, then the only benefit to cutting spending will be that the party making the cuts is going to be telling its voters how the cuts stick it to the other side. If it wasn't obvious to you by now that this is the main driving force behind MAGA, then I don't expect this straw to break your camel's back either.
Brett, I suspect you are making categorical statements for rhetorical effect, because taken at face value, your comments suggest a near-total ignorance of the value of benefit/cost prioritization. But in case you're not:
The cost of the research funding that is being slashed is miniscule compared to the size of the U.S. federal budget, but its damage to our nation's research institutions and research-enabled capabilities will be profound.
We are not talking about a bauble or a luxury item here: It is no exaggeration to say that science, including its learnings, methods, institutions, and the capabilities that it has enabled, is the light of the world and one of the chief glories of humankind. The extent to which it has over the past three centuries reduced human suffering, increased our understanding of our world, the cosmos and ourselves, and increased our numbers, capabilities, and the span and scope of our lives and experiences, is staggering.
To myopically take our country's participation in all of this for granted - to not regard and nurture it as the precious thing it is for us and our descendants even as we benefit from it every hour of every day - would be to cede leadership in this arena to others whose priorities may be substantially different from our own, in effect profoundly devaluing the lives of our children, and theirs, and theirs.
And funding research likely generated more money for the government ultimately as much of it goes on to be the source for job creating (and tax paying) enterprises and defense breakthroughs.
Yes, that's the usual rationalization, and yet, somehow, the more government spends on it, the bigger the deficit gets. Strange, that.
That’s goofy, the government spends way more on other things, the research could be making the government money but almost totally offset by the other spending/lack of revenue.
Cannot imagine why nothing can get cut in DC.
You are just like every other pig at the trough.
I don’t think we should cut spending that ultimately makes money.
...yet deficits do not ever go down. And you have yet to provide numbers to verify this money-making.
I am not saying it cannot be true...but your word is not really enough.
As I said to Brett deficits increasing is not inconsistent with research spending ultimately making the government money as deficits largely come from other areas that dwarf research spending.
Here are some numbers.
https://www.dallasfed.org/research/economics/2024/0213#:~:text=After%20about%20eight%20years%2C%20productivity,student%20through%20to%20a%20degree.
Briefly going over the numbers, last year we had,
$4.92T in revenue,
$6.75T in spending, of which
$1.13T was interest on the debt.
So, $5.62T in non-interest spending. To get to a balanced budget that non-interest spending would have to be reduced to $3.79T. That wouldn't get us out of the hole, it would just be enough to stop digging deeper.
We need a 1/3 reduction in actual spending at the federal level, just to stop sinking! When cuts that large are necessary, it isn't a matter of separating the worthwhile from the frivolous spending, ALL the frivolous spending needs to go, and a substantial part of what would be worthwhile if you weren't buried in debt.
In short, we are actually in a fiscal emergency situation, even if it's politically dangerous to acknowledge it. And the longer we go on without treating it that way, the worse things get.
Or we could raise taxes.
I assume you also have concerns about ICE's 170 Billion, especially considering that they're shrinking the economy while they're at it?
History demonstrates that, every time we 'raise taxes to cut the deficit', we instead end up spending the extra money and running a deficit anyway.
And we're currently at about as high a percentage of the GDP being spent by the government as we've ever sustained outside a few years during WWII. You really want to push that percentage into unprecedented levels on a sustained basis?
That is not, in fact, what history demonstrates. See jb's numbers above for instance.
You always say that, but it isn't true. Since 1980 there has been a slight negative correlation (-0.31) between revenue and spending (both as a % of GDP).
As you Pricks say ad nauseum, that’s what Tariffs are
Last year's anti-Semitism on the UCLA campus, the Bruins embrace of Islamist extremism, the racial discrimination of its DEI and CRT programs, and the Title IX violations of women's sports did much more damage to the entire human enterprise than halting NSF funding.
Perhaps Terry Tao should have spoken up?
He was happy to take the taxpayer’s money while turning a blind eye to his employer UCLA’s discrimination against many of the same taxpayers.
Now he’s complaining only because his own gravy train is threatened.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/08/improving-oversight-of-federal-grantmaking/
"Each agency head shall promptly designate a senior appointee who shall be responsible for creating a process to review new funding opportunity announcements and to review discretionary grants to ensure that they are consistent with agency priorities and the national interest."
This is just a war on science and universities. There is no problem this is solving.
I can't wait to learn who my new Science Kommsar is.
"There is no problem this is solving."
Its putting final grant approval in the hands of a political appointee responsible to the elected executive instead of people like you. That is solving a problem.
Do you think political criteria or scientific criteria are more important in spending for scientific research?
I think spending should be in the "national interest."
I do too, is that better achieved by focusing on political or scientific criteria?
You falsely assume the bureaucrat alone cares about science.
I’m not assuming that, I asked if political or scientific criteria is better. I think the latter. Who is best to apply or judge that? Maybe it’s not a bureaucrat but it’s certainly it a political commissar.
Sticky Fingers?
Adler ignores the IHRA standard to define antisemitism, which the Trump administration imposed as a pretextual basis to attack universities. In context of ongoing mid-east atrocities, that IHRA definition cannot be intellectually defensible, still less can conformance to it be held up as a metric for legally enforceable public policy on university governance.
Also, any demand for university conformance to the IHRA standard is a 1A violation so egregious that any court which says otherwise ought to be publicly condemned as corruptly partisan. Private universities are the right parties to lead that condemnation.
University administrators have no choice when they are so corruptly attacked. It may cost them more money than they want to lose, but they must organize and fight back collectively. Any other choice will cost the universities, and the nation, still more.
Adler has this totally wrong. His language gives away his partisan intent ("ostriches"). Adler is not an honest broker in this comment. Nobody who fails to mention the Trump administration's imposition of the IHRA standard can claim credit as intellectually honest.