The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Worst Libertarian Argument for Large-Scale Immigration to the US
If immigration reduces social trust, that's a bad thing, even if it leads to smaller government.
Some opponents of liberal immigration fear that immigrants will cause the US to have a bigger welfare state. This would occur because the immigrants would be more likely to be on government assistance, would bring political attitudes from less libertarian societies, or both.
Libertarian proponents of immigration have several responses to this fear. One such response is that large immigrant populations tend to reduce the size of the welfare state. Immigrants, after all, are different in a variety of ways--appearance, culture, religion, etc-- from the native-born. Given natural in-group preferences, the native-born therefore tend to be suspicious of newcomers.
This suspicion manifests itself as a decline in social trust. A lack of social trust, in turn, makes people less likely to want to vote for big spending programs as a matter of social solidarity. In other words, you are less likely to vote in line with social solidarity if there is less social solidarity, and immigration leads to less social solidarity.
To my mind, this is a terrible argument. There was a time when I was younger and more of a single-minded libertarian that it likely would have appealed to me; anything that reduces the size of the state, I would have thought, is a good thing.
But now I'm older, not necessarily wiser, but perhaps a bit more conservative in a non-ideological sense. I'm also less enamored of "libertarianism uber alles" and more of a milquetoast classical liberal and concerned with living in a good society, not just one that has less government.
In a good society, people have social trust that manifests itself in behavior. They volunteer, they help their neighbors, they care about their communities. And if they think big government is a manifestation of social trust/solidarity, they will vote for big government.
I think big government tends to be corrosive of community and pits people who might otherwise get along against each other in a scramble for political rents. I also think that many government programs are wasteful and often counter-productive, and I'm sympathetic to the notion that they often are rights-violative as well.
I wish I could persuade my fellow citizens that this were true; that live and let live, voluntary and charitable associations, and so on, are the true mark of social cohesion and caring about your neighbor. But if I and others can't, I'd rather live in a society where there is a strong degree of social solidarity and a large government than in a society where people oppose government programs out of nativisim, suspicion, and hostility to their neighbors. So if mass immigration actually reduces social trust, that's a mark against, not for, mass immigration, even if it also reduces the size and scope of government.
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Just once, I would like to see Reason/VC designate illegal "immigration" .vs legal immigration in an article.
Just once.
It ain't that hard.
It's rarely relevant, and certainly not to this post.
When is it ever not relevant? Do you view legal immigrants as being equivalent to illegal ones?
Mass immigration reduces social trust, whether it is legal or illegal.
Schlafly illustrated why it's rarely relevant in his response to you: the vast majority of anti-immigration people are anti-immigration; they make virtually no distinction between legal and illegal. Yes, they want the latter ones who are here treated more harshly, but they want to reduce all immigration.
Who are you to say what any anti-immigration people believe, much less the "vast majority" of them? I think what you'd find if you actually checked is that many of the most anti-illegal immigration voices in politics today are themselves immigrants, married to immigrants, the children of immigrants, etc.
Because this post is about whether and under what circumstances immigration SHOULD be legal.
It makes no more sense than it would for a post arguing to legalize pot, or to criminalize it, to distinguish between “legal pot” and “illegal pot.”
Agreed. I think the post assumed the "large scale" immigration would be legal, even if not constrained by too many legal restrictions.
If any libertarians are making the argument that large scale immigration tends to reduce the size of the welfare state, they cannot be trusted or believed. There is no empirical evidence for that, and plenty anecdotes/intuition to the contrary.
The fundamental problem with any such claim by libertarians is that it is insincere. They are not just speculating on the possible beneficial economic outcomes and advocating for them. Many, like one co-conspirator in particular, believe in it because they are against government having the authority to restrict the movement of anyone (across borders or otherwise), without any concern for the consequences from that. They would be for mass immigration even if the economic evidence argued against it--which it does in some cases, depressing wages for those at the bottom of the work force.
“There is no empirical evidence for that”
Isn’t it going on right now? Trump is cutting government and antipathy to too much immigration was an animating issue with his movement.
That's not what he said. He didn't say there's no empirical evidence that reducing the size of government is a goal of a portion of the electorate. What he said was that there's no evidence that mass immigration leads to the movement to reduce the welfare state. The mass migrants tend to vote for social programs. There's no evidence that the distrust that is fostered outweighs the votes of the third world migrants.
The entire idea discussed is that mass migration leads to a backlash in social trust which leads to less support for government, ya goof.
The size of the welfare state in the US is not shrinking.
Whether large scale immigration would reduce or increase support for a welfare state is a highly fact bound question, that can't be answered theoretically.
On the one hand, we might suppose that the reduced social cohesion would motivate the native population to be less supportive of a welfare state. As you note, this is a pretty ugly way to reduce support for the welfare state, with serious downsides.
On the other hand, the wage competition will drive a larger fraction of the native population onto the dole, increasing support for it.
And the incoming immigrants inevitably come from less libertarian societies, and bring with them support for non-libertarian government.
There's no theoretical basis for assuming that the first factor will predominate over all the contrary factors. But worse, there's historical reason to think the opposite is true! The libertarian movement has actually gotten WEAKER over the decades of mass migration, not stronger.
Is there actually any society that became more libertarian as a consequence of mass migration? I can't think of any.
“And the incoming immigrants inevitably come from less libertarian societies, and bring with them support for non-libertarian government.”
Did your wife, who iirc immigrated from the Philippines, bring with her support for non-libertarian government?
Ah, yeah, actually. Relative to your average Libertarian, at least.
The trouble is, "your average Libertarian" is actually extremely libertarian. You need to compare to people who are moderately libertarian, as most Americans are.
Well, thanks for helping us become less libertarian.
You're welcome. At least on the right, people aren't expected to marry for political reasons...
Never figured progressives would support marriage for political alliance. I guess love is no longer real.
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Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on their experience. If they were fleeing obvious oppression, no; they're glad to leave that behind. If they were getting away from much less confrontational absence of liberty, then they might bring those attitudes with them.
You're assuming that they're smart enough to draw the connection between the policies they supported and the results that ensued, leading to the oppression/economic problems. My experience is that they're largely not.
A smart man may have based his argument to others on something other than pointing to his “experience.”
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Yes, the USA and its predecessor colonies, where it's said religious tolerance came about as a compromise from the immigrant groups not having the strength to impose the repression they wanted.
Also, central and southern Africa, where the whites left things much freer than the natives had.
Quit judging people like some undifferentiated group. Like some collectivist. Or bigot.
[Citation needed.]
"And the incoming immigrants inevitably come from less libertarian societies, and bring with them support for non-libertarian government."
Which is why Cuban immigrants vote overwhelmingly for Republicans.
That hardly implies that they support a more libertarian society in the US, you know.
You've *regularly* made the argument that voting against Democrats is always the libertarian thing to do.
It's a stupid argument, but oh hey looks like it wasn't very sincere either.
Can't argue with this, as far as it goes.
"Live and Let Live" but also ban gay marriage and require religious accommodation in private enterprise, etc.
Seems incongruent.
"Live and let live" means people are allowed to tell you "no"
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Wait a minute! What's "nativism" doing there? Isn't nativism preference for those already there vs. those to come? Nativism is practically a synonym for social solidarity, isn't it?
"Isn't nativism preference for those already there vs. those to come? "
Not really, if we took that literally nativists would support illegal immigrants who are already here.
Actually it's more like a preference for those who arrived and were accepted prior to some event marking the end of the Good Old Days, and the beginning of the Bad Times when they started letting those other people in.
For your typical mild nativist it's roughly when they came of age, but for the industrial grade nativists it could easily be 500 years ago,
One of my favorite political cartoons:
https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/fat-rich-men-stand-at-dock-to-stop-immigrant-from-arriving-news-photo/615292328
1883.
But THIS time it's different.
When Californians move to Colorado they vote to make it more like the California they fled, instead of keeping it the same wonderful place they moved to. They can't help themselves. "This time is different."
Illegal immigration from places with a high welfare state only leads to a high welfare state. Moreover, the people inviting them here want to increase the welfare state out of guilt, a misguided notion that the government can spend its way our of poverty, or out of sheer power (e.g. for the teachers unions).
True, because the Californians don't see themselves as fleeing oppression.
Yes, California's are the oppressor locusts destroying everything they come in contact with.
Then why are they fleeing? Oh wait... high taxes, inept government, costly regulations, crime, homelessness. Colorado needs more of those things!
Strange. In Texas we think immigrants from Colorado are a problem, and for the same reasons.
They're not fleeing. Do you people actually ever talk to people in the real world, as opposed to on social media? Americans move from place to place for family, jobs, taxes, climate, etc. Not because they're political refugees from other parts of the United States.
Ahh yes i am sure all the U haul moving data from blue states to red is just a coincidence.
Even assuming U-Haul's data is generalizable, nothing DMN said has anything to do with where people are moving, it has to do with why.
At its core, it's more racial. The migrants from the third world are almost universally non-white, and they see whites as oppressors who have stolen everything. Thus, they vote for a welfare state to confiscate the whites' stuff. From each according to his white skin, to each according to his brown skin. Democracy is a racial headcount.
Well, thanks for Klansplaining what non-whites think.
Libertarianism is as much a threat to Democratic government as communism. Both are blind ideologies that despise the popular sovereignty of the governed.
"If we free the slaves, the slaves will enter society. Some people don't like having to associate with slaves. Thag will reduce social trust. Therefore we shouldn't free the slaves."
Making policy decisions based on the irrational beliefs of a minority of people is seldom going to result in good policy.
"if we free the slaves, blacks will enter society as free men. blacks are genetically and morally inferior beings, with low intelligence and poor impulse control. some people don't like having to associate with patently stupid and violent men and women. that will reduce social trust. therefore, we shouldn't allow blacks full access to white society."
a perfectly legitimate and true argument. certainly not irrational.
nativisim, suspicion, and hostility to their neighbors
Weirdly, David, but unsurprisingly, you identified the problem without identifying it as the problem.
>If immigration reduces social trust, that's a bad thing, even if it leads to smaller government.
And, ironically, it's big, massive, oversized government that has been pushing and implementing mass immigration, legal and otherwise.
>Libertarian proponents of immigration have several responses to this fear. One such response is that large immigrant populations tend to reduce the size of the welfare state.
Never heard this. Where in the world has this ever happened? Where a state with massive immigration reduces the size of its welfare state rather than using the condition of the new immigrants to justify expanding it?
Also, the new immigrants tend to vote themselves larger welfare benefits as soon as they are able.
After all, it *you*, not they, who will be paying for it. Lack of social trust and all still increases the size of the welfare state as different groups try to sieze control of it to wield it against their neighbors.
New immigrants can't vote.
And once they are able, they're citizens and do pay taxes.
You also seem to have pulled this whole scenario out of your butt.
Your butt sounds like one of those suspicious hostile nativists Prof. Bernstein was talking about!
Especially when they're much less capable than the native population.