Monday Open Thread

What's on your mind?

Comments

[Kazinski]

Trump is ushering in the beginnings of a new era of public control over the government, that probably hasn't existed since the Coolidge Administration.

The layoffs at the State Department, while still very modest, has shown it is possible for people to vote for a change and actually get it. Where candidates used to campaign at the most for hiring freezes, now actual layoffs are on the table its a new era of the possible.

That's democracy at work.

CNN has a helpful, but hardly definitive tracker that shows "At least 49,793 workers have been laid off or targeted for layoffs from federal agencies so far" and their departments (I'm not sure what targeted means). In context with 3 million Federal employees, that is 1.67% of the federal workforce, so hardly a decimation of the civil service, yet.

In 2024 alone Intel, Microsoft, Tesla, Dell, Cisco, UPS all had layoffs of over 10,000, and of course the unemployment levels barely budged. This is normal for most Americans, at least once or twice in their careers, if not even more.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/tracking-federal-workforce-firings-dg

[Martinned]

I'm old enough to remember that the Dutch Attorney-General (let's call it that) got in trouble for saying that the Netherlands could have Shari'a law if enough people voted for it.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/2006/09/hysteria_over_ministers_sharia/

I guess it's not supposed to be a good thing if a majority can decide to abolish democracy.

[Frank Drackman]

I’m old enough to remember that the US is a Republic, not a “Democracy”

[Dr. Ed 2]

+1

[Josh R]

I'm old enough to remember you are wrong.

[Kazinski]

I hardly think layoffs of public employees imperils democracy.

In fact California is consdering public employee layoffs now to deal with budget shortfalls, but Newsom is trying to get by with just pay cuts without layoffs.

[Martinned]

It's more the rest of the "change" you think that people voted for that worries me...

[Riva]

What? In 2008, the electorate in this country voted for “change.” Should they have been able to do that?

[Sarcastr0]

At some scale it does. Especially if done unilaterally.

You may like this because you are radical and unwise. And callous.

But laundering it through democracy doesn’t track with how this was done and what Trump said in the election and the final voting tally.

[Commenter_XY]

We are nowhere near the scale. We have a couple million RIFs to go before democracy is imperiled. LMAO.

What a drama queen.

[Sarcastr0]

You came out for torture 2 weeks ago. Why would I listen to what you think is legitimate?

[Malika the Maiz]

Torture? He straight up roots for murder.

[Bwaaah]

Murder. We have a murder. Do we have a genocide? Anybody for genocide?

Murder going once...murder going twice...

[Malika the Maiz]

Yawn.

[Bwaaah]

Exactly.

[Stephen Lathrop]

Commenter_XY — Ten layoffs hurt democracy, if they lawlessly thwart a Constitutionally legitimate end which Congress authorized. Such things have happened repeatedly already, and not by accident, but with an overt intention to circumvent separation of powers.

Conversely, 10,000 new hires, funded by Congress, lawlessly thwart Democracy, if they are put in place to circumvent due process. To do that has just been authorized by appropriation in Congress, with an overt intent to deprive people of Constitutional rights.

It always hurts democracy when government does not follow the law, or ignores the Constitution. The Trump administration has done that with a reckless abandon—and an openly-announced intent—never before seen in American history.

[Commenter_XY]

Oh look, another drama queen.

[Kazinski]

But the Supreme Court when greenlighting the layoffs last week noted that the executive order specifically said that the layoffs should conform to the law.

Is there any law that you think any of the layoffs are violating?

[LexAquilia]

Listen Commenter_XY, it's really important that Sacastr0 remains open and receptive to your comments, so you must only write comments that he will approve of. Okay? This is about saving democracy. The linchpin in our entire democracy is Sacastr0's personal approval.

Stay on the Right Side of History.

[Armchair]

So, your opinion is if the people explicitly vote for someone who says "I'll do layoffs". And also vote for Congressmen who will support that President...

The President can't actually lay anyone off?

[Sarcastr0]

Trump ran away from Project 25, Armchair. Right there that should tell you how that was playing in the actual election. The American people are not a radical group.

His supporters will retcon him as having said whatever, because you can find a quote of him saying everything on all sides of every issue. And then they'll claim that's what Trump ran on.

He ran against Biden and Harris.

[Armchair]

I'll take that to mean you think "Yes, the President can't lay anyone off, even if he literally promises to during the election and the people vote for him".

[Commenter_XY]

It will be a long 42 months for them. They need to cry harder.

[Sarcastr0]

LOL Strawman and quit the field.

How you can tell Armchair isn't up to addressing what people actually say.

[Armchair]

Try saying these words "No, I think the President can lay people off, those are his lawful powers"

Try it. Or avoid and dodge again, and make it clear to everyone the truth.

[Sarcastr0]

Try reading this:

"At some scale it does."

Now, do some elementary logic on what this means.

You keep demanding magic words or you'll strawman me yet again. Kind of silly threat - oh know Armchair's gonna humiliate himself again by accusing me of over-the-top bullshit!

[Bwaaah]

Sarcastr0, always opposed to those who stand against positions he never defends.

Behold the man who speaks out of four sides of his mouth, never stops talking, and never says anything meaningful.

But he reads good books.

[Riva]

With respect to Project 25, not actually an accurate representation of the facts, little communist girl that never smiled. We could call it lying. The democrat party and their media adjuncts desperately tried to equate a silly warped view of Project 25 as controlling President Trump’s agenda and the Republican platform. This was nonsense that President Trump correctly rejected.

[Malika the Maiz]

“I know nothing about Project 2025,” Trump claimed in July, even though Vought and several other members of his first administration were involved in the plan’s creation. “I have no idea who is behind it. I disagree with some of the things they’re saying and some of the things they’re saying are absolutely ridiculous and abysmal.”

[Brett Bellmore]

Wow, I never previously realized that a Presidential administration enjoyed a hive mind, with shared memories. Yes, in light of that, if anybody in his administration had worked on it, he would certainly have known all about it.

[Malika the Maiz]

I was responding to Riva-bot’s claim that Trump only distanced himself from a “silly warped view of Project 25 as controlling President Trump’s agenda and the Republican platform.” In fact he rather unqualifiedly distanced himself from the project itself.

[Sarcastr0]

It's the blueprint for what Trump has been doing.

It's yet it is also not what Trump ran on. He in fact ran away from it. And you were all in on covering for him - you were very offended when people here tied him to what it planned.

Elections are complicated. But what we can see is that Trump didn't think he could win running on what he was actually going to do.

[Brett Bellmore]

It's a Chinese menu from a restaurant Trump didn't bankroll or run, but that doesn't mean that if Hunan Shrimp was on that menu, Trump can never eat it again without becoming one of the stockholders.

Literally, it's a compilation of proposals for his administration from a large group of people, a few of which at one time or today work for him, but who were putting it together independently of him to suggest to him.

Some parts he rejected, some parts he liked, and some of the stuff he'd have done if they'd never compiled the list.

[Michael P]

To be fair, assuming a hive mind is the only way they can justify pretending Biden had a mind at all.

[Sarcastr0]

1. People noted there was this radical doc put together by folks with ties to Trump.
2. Trump during the election says he knows nothing about this doc.
3. Trump gets elected and then instantiates most of the stuff in the doc.

So this stuff you and Kaz are cheerleading? It wasn't what Trump was elected to do. Explicitly not, at least according to Trump.

All the rest is you throwing chaff and tapdancing around.

[Riva]

I doubt this idiot Malika the whatever even understands nothing that he wrote contradicts my comment. Actually, I don't doubt it.

[Riva]

And Project 2025 was not radical, little communist girl that never smiled. It was sensible. Now, if you're looking for radical, look at Harris' and the democrats' proposed agenda. Hell just look at the Biden regime. Hard to get more radical than weaponizing federal law enforcement against your main political opponent. And that's just the tip of a corrupt and incompetent iceberg.

[Kazinski]

Do you think Trump actually read Project 2025?

Do you think he cares if something he wants to do is in there or not?

Does much of it reflect his views compiled by people who know him, and will likely work for him, almost certainly. But it probably has other stuff in there he never thought about and doesn't want too.

[Sarcastr0]

I think he ran away from it and then ended up trying to do most of it.

That's all I need for my thesis that what he's doing is not what he ran on.

It sure blows up your 'this is democracy working well' nonsense.

[Kazinski]

Here is the stuff he ran on.

Complain away, but it seems all there to me, even if some of the stuff hasn't been completed yet, or is unlikely like Birthright citizenship.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/11-things-trump-day-1-presidency-rcna184423

[Malika the Maiz]

First of all, Riva bot can’t distinguish between writing and cut and pasting. Second of all, it can’t distinguish between Trump disavowing a warped view of 2025 and Trump’s unqualified (and, because Trump, laughably contradictory) statement saying he knew nothing about the project and though it contained ridiculous ideas. Hence, he ran away from *it.*

[jb]

If a President runs on student loan relief, and people vote for him, can he actually do student loan relief?

[Martinned]

By the way, in the specific case of the State Department layoffs make sense. If your entire foreign policy consists of telling people to go fuck themselves and occasionally dropping a bomb on them, you don't need diplomats.

[CountmontyC]

How many of those laid off were diplomats? Because it is my understanding that it was amost entirely clerical staff and barely amounts to 2% of those working in the State Department. But then like the good leftist you are you must be overly hyperbolic to an extreme extent so you can claim an outrage du jour.

[Sarcastr0]

It is your understanding!

[CountmontyC]

Yes
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/state-department-trump-administration-start-layoffs-in-coming-days/
Of the 1300 ( out of over 74000 employees at the State Department) over 1100 were civil service jobs and did little more than clerical work. Npne seem to be actual diplomats.

[David Nieporent]

When you apply for a passport, and it takes an extra 2 months to get it to you because the people who "do little more than clerical work" like issuing passports got fired, will you just blame DEI?

[CountmontyC]

So a reduction of 2% of the workforce will cause an extra 2 month wait time for passports? What are you basing that on?

[Joe_dallas]

Its based on the same thing every leftists is basing it on - the same leftist talking points

[CountmontyC]

In other words pulling it out of his posterior.

[Sarcastr0]

The point seems more that 'paper pushers' do useful things, and your contempt is myopic.

[jb]

Depends on what fraction of the overall 2% do passport processing, no?

But also, think about how queues work: if you don't have enough people processing the front end of a queue, the tail is just going to get longer and longer until people get so frustrated they just don't get in the queue at all. Processing times built up to about 12-18 weeks due to Covid, and then worked their way back down as processing improved.

[Sarcastr0]

Read what you link.

1. Your numbers indicate 18% were FSOs. So much for "almost entirely clerical staff."

2. Diplomats seem to think diplomats are pretty impacted: "They target diplomats not for how they've served or the skills they have, but for where they happen to be assigned. That is not reform."

[CountmontyC]

So 82% were just paper pushers. Got it. And even FSOs can be little more than clerks but just serve overseas.

[Sarcastr0]

Retreating to new goalposts.

And denigrating support staff is pretty poor form.

[Joe_dallas]

How much paper pushing is actually done at state? probably not much. Its not a department that would much paper pushing as compared to the IRS or SSA , or medicare/medicaid

[Joe_dallas]

Yes Susan Rice said the diplimatic core has been severly impacted. The same susan rice who was obama' main advisor on libya and iran. The same Susan rice who advised that it was a great idea to make iran a regional power.

Any proteges of Susan rice should be terminated

[Malika the Maiz]

Is the general decline in joe’s English writing correlated with something else? This is Frank Fakeman character level terrible.

[Joe_dallas]

Inane comment from Malika since he is unable to address the core issue.

[Malika the Maiz]

Much better here, guess his condition comes and goes.

[Bob from Ohio]

"So much for "almost entirely clerical staff.""

Close enough for government work.

8 of 10 can easily be described as "almost entirely".

[Joe_dallas]

Bryon York's comment
"Looking at State Department documents, it appears the department went from 57,340 total employees in 2007 to 72,895 in 2015 to 80,214 in 2024. So it grew by nearly 23,000 employees before the ‘devastating’ cut of 1,300".

I suspect even if there were "diplomats" in that bucket of 1300, they were low level diplomats. perspective is in order.

[Frank Drackman]

That actually makes more sense than anything else you've said

[Bwaaah]

I had to read it a second time, and re-check the name, just to be sure.

He seems to have fallen into the trap of reasoning. I can't imagine he'll be stuck there for long, especially seeing how quickly he bit himself with it.

[Riva]

The only problem with the state department layoffs is that they didn’t go far enough. As Byron York has noted:

Looking at State Department documents, it appears the department went from 57,340 total employees in 2007 to 72,895 in 2015 to 80,214 in 2024. So it grew by nearly 23,000 employees before the ‘devastating’ cut of 1,300.

Of course, there’s still time for more dismissals so perhaps my criticism is premature.

As for bomb dropping, I’d take President Trump’s limited and strategically and tactically brilliant use of military force any day of the week (and twice on Sunday) over the Obama administration’s 26,000 dropped bombs

[CountmontyC]

Don't forget the 1600-1700 that took the retirement buyout bringing the total closer to 3000.

[jimc5499]

When you have some of those "diplomats" openly stating "I don't care what some four year hack in the White House wants. I'll do what I think is right." Heard in a helicopter over the Mediterranean in 1983. Yes I heard them say it as we were flying them to Lebanon.

[Bob from Ohio]

"layoffs at the State Department,"

Did you see the little signs State people put up in the restrooms or the posterboard in the hall for writing messages? So childish.

[Malika the Maiz]

Childish? Nobody tell this guy about the President and Rosie O’Donnell.

[Kazinski]

Vance Boelter has given his first jailhouse interview, he's not dropping a lot of information, but he did say why he didn't do it:

“You are fishing and I can’t talk about my case…I’ll say it didn’t involve either the Trump stuff or pro life,” Vance Boelter wrote this week from a cell inside Sherburne County Jail in Elk River, about 30 miles northwest of Minneapolis."

“I am pro-life personaly [sic] but it wasn’t those,” he said, using the jail’s internal messaging system. “I will just say there is a lot of information that will come out in future that people will look at and judge for themselves that goes back 24 months before the 14th. If the gov* ever let’s [sic] it get out.”

He also does seem concerned about them not releasing the contents of his letter:
"Can I ask what you heard as an outside person about the note that the alleged person — I’ll say alleged person — left in that car, did you hear anything about that?” demanded Boelter, who was wearing a yellow, jail-issued jumpsuit, and spoke with a thick Minnesotan accent."

"“I also made sure when I was arrested that they secured that letter — I made the request that they secure that letter before it gets destroyed — because I was concerned somebody would destroy it,”

"In the letter, which has not been released publicly, Boelter reportedly claimed he had been secretly trained by the US Military and was asked by Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz# to perform the killings, so that the 2024 Democratic vice presidential candidate could run for Minnesota Democratic Sen. Amy Klobuchar’s seat.

https://nypost.com/2025/07/12/world-news/accused-killer-vance-boelter-hints-at-motive-in-post-jailhouse-interview/

* if he was speaking aloud I would say that would refer to the governor, but on a messaging app more likely government, but its ambiguous.

# Who coincidentally had a long career in the Army reaching the highest possible enlisted rank of Command Sergeant Major

[Frank Drackman]

Those Minnesotans really get pissed when the Dealer adds on the Tru-Coat

[Dr. Ed 2]

Remember son of sam?

[Frank Drackman]

Was that you?

[Joe_dallas]

Based on what we have seen so far about Vance Boelter , he is simply a full blown nut case with political leanings crossing most every political spectrum.

[LexAquilia]

If Jeff Zients is on record as having approved the use of the auto-pen for a pardon or Executive Order, are they still valid? Or are they illegitimate?

[Brett Bellmore]

Probably end up subject to an executive branch version of the Enrolled Bill doctrine, so long as Biden doesn't complain.

[Dr. Ed 2]

Couldnt biden be forced to testify?

[Martinned]

I don't think that's a precedent Trumpists want to set...

[Frank Drackman]

Prosecuting X-POTUS's? it's been done

[Swede425]

LOL!
Leave the gaslighting to the professionals, like Gaslighto.
Stick to tulips and windmills.

[Martinned]

I know you think that Trump will only leave the White House feet first, but you have to allow for the possibility that he might not...

[Swede425]

The left has made it impossible not to consider that possibility.
They've already tried. Twice.

[Malika the Maiz]

The party of personal responsibility!

[Joe_dallas]

Dr. Ed 2 3 hours ago
Flag Comment
Mute User
"Couldnt biden be forced to testify?"

Whether Biden could be forced to testify at this point is Moot.

Robert Hur's report in March 2024 indicated that Biden had diminished capacity (granted he didnt used that phrasing, though the implication was clear) . 15 months later, its very unlikely he has capacity.

[hobie]

If a president can declassify things just through thought, what's the big deal here?

[LexAquilia]

Which civil servant does the POTUS need to get permission from to declassify something? What if that govie is on vacation? Does POTUS have to wait until they come back?

[Malika the Maiz]

The idea of the President having to follow a lawful process is anathema to this government bootlicker.

[RedheadedPharoh]

What statute are you referring too?

[Malika the Maiz]

All of them.

[LexAquilia]

So you got nothing. As usual.

[Malika the Maiz]

I got everything, you have nothing.

[David Nieporent]

Reading is fundamental. Hobie didn't say anything about "permission."

[LexAquilia]

Who does he need to speak his declassification too? What if that person isn't on vacation?

Is there a statute somewhere that dictates how the President must declassifying something?

[Krayt]

If a president says he did that, that's still better than a sketchy autopen use where there's no independent confirmation of presidential assent to it.

[Malika the Maiz]

Both have said after the fact they assented to it.

[Drewski]

"What if that govie is on vacation?"

A term few Americans would use.

[Brett Bellmore]

Probably the flip side of what happened with Trump. One President issued orders subordinates deliberately failed to note down or act on, the other's subordinates deliberately acted on orders he never gave.

Give Trump some credit, no auto pen for anything with legal significance, he regularly signs things in person with witnesses and a camera rolling, so there's no doubt at all he's the one who signed it.

[Martinned]

Give Trump some credit, no auto pen for anything with legal significance

No auto pen for anything without legal significance either. The man is practically glowing any time his people put something in front of him to sign. Bless his little heart!

[Brett Bellmore]

I'll. Say. It. Yet. Again: This sort of trash talk is a self-own by Trump's foes, whatever you claim he is, you're admitting you're so much worse THAT could beat you.

Be real: The man you routinely describe couldn't have won a student counsel race, let alone been elected President twice. It was stupid the first time you described him that way, at this point it's just tiresome.

[Sarcastr0]

I like how you think the skill set required to be a populist is anything like the skill set to be a leader.

Same reductive impulse as when you think there's one dimension to intelligence.

Erroll Flynn was an alcoholic failure except for the moment he was on camera.

And the idea that insulting Trump is some kind of political misstep...either you're admitting there's a cult of personality around Trump or you're so utterly blind to the right it's tragic.

[Riva]

Like Biden? We can do without more of that “leadership.”

But I can see you’re still having trouble accepting the results of a legitimate election. A lot of countries seem to be having that same problem when their preferred candidate loses.

[Sarcastr0]

Nothing I wrote indicates I don't accept the results of the election.

You keep posting weird, rewarmed talking points that have nothing to do with the post you are replying to.

[Riva]

Still can't stop with the BS I see. Gaslighting is a hard habit to break. Some advice. Just try to be honest, just for once, you know, just to see what it feels like.

[Malika the Maiz]

It’s what a lot of bots do.

[Martinned]

Oh, no, Trump has excellent political instincts. But that doesn't mean he isn't a dummy otherwise. If you don't think he's an embarrassment for the country and for the Republican party, so much the worse for you.

All those Silicon Valley types and Project 2025 types are taking advantage of the man left, right, and centre. The only question is who controls him at any given time. (Which is usually the last person he talked to.)

[David Nieporent]

Be real: The man you routinely describe couldn't have won a student counsel race, let alone been elected President twice. It was stupid the first time you described him that way, at this point it's just tiresome.

Again: getting elected is something done to you, not something you do.

[Brett Bellmore]

LOL! Right, being elected President is like getting struck by lightning.

You just go ahead and believe that, Trump's greatest asset is that his foes are morally committed to underestimating him.

[Sarcastr0]

I'd say it's irrational people like you who will support him no matter what he does are his main asset.

The moment he was needless cruel to an illegal, he had your blind loyalty.

[Malika the Maiz]

You literally thought a man with dementia won the Presidency in 2020 Brett.

[bernard11]

Yes. There is a bit of a contradiction there.

[David Nieporent]

LOL! Right, being elected President is like getting struck by lightning.

It's like being elected to any other public position: a popularity contest. The couple elected prom king and queen didn't use their intellectual skills to get chosen.

[Riva]

“Again: getting elected is something done to you, not something you do” What the f? The democrats and Harris actually did quite a lot to convince the majority not to support them in 2024.

[jb]

Trump is a great politician and a terrible President.

This is just the Peter Principle at work, no? Having the skillset to be good at one job doesn't mean that you're good at the job that you're going to get promoted into as a result.

[Sarcastr0]

We elect showhorses, not workhorses.

All these supposed government skeptics forget this the moment their guy comes into office.

[David Nieporent]

He has run three times, has never gotten a majority of the popular vote, and twice actually lost the popular vote. That doesn't sound like a "great politician."

[jb]

He's managed to contort the entire Republican party into a cult of personality. So he's definitely good at...something.

[David Nieporent]

Idiot, it's called a photo op. Every president does that. Of course the autopen was used by Trump's people for things with legal significance. Like, you know, pardons.

[hobie]

Do you think with Melania in her kerchief and Trump in his cap, they settled down for a long winter's physical signing of 1000-2000 pardons for Trump's cop-beating militia? I don't believe he physically signed them all

[Riva]

No clown. Not accurate at all. All ~1,500 January 6 pardons were issued through a single executive proclamation signed by President Trump on January 20, 2025.

And of course there was no “cop beating militia” but a cop did shoot and kill an unarmed woman, in case you’re curious.

[Malika the Maiz]

“And of course there was no “cop beating militia”

Rive bot not programmed for video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rWRn-RcEodg

[hobie]

Haha!!!

[David Nieporent]

Once more for the really slow: the constitution does not say that pardons need to be signed, or in writing at all. So the use of an autopen is utterly irrelevant to their validity. The sole issue is whether Biden authorized the pardons themselves.

[Brett Bellmore]

No, the Constitution doesn't say that pardons need to be signed. It says Presidents can pardon. He could just hold a press conference and verbally pardon somebody, and it would be just as valid. But there needs to be SOME evidence that the President, specifically the President, did issue the pardon. Or are you saying that Presidents can pardon somebody just by thinking about it?

The signature is evidence that the President actually did so. What we're discussing is the fact that it has become unreliable evidence, because autopen signatures aren't actually evidence of who did the signing.

They reduce a functional mechanism for confirming intent to an empty formality that no longer accomplishes its purpose.

That's what is so great about the fact that, when Trump signs a bill or EO, he does so personally, in front of cameras, with witnesses. And reserves the autopen for meaningless fluff like "signed" photos, or a letter congratulating you on reaching 100 years of age.

He's restoring the actual functionality of the signature.

[Mr. Bumble]

Seems strange that there is no legal requirement (apparently, David is correct and there isn't) that something as significant as a pardon or commutation does not require a signature to be valid.

[Brett Bellmore]

You want the constitution to partake of the prolixity of a legal code, to coin a phrase? Congress can't legislate on this topic, because it's a core power of a different branch.

[John F. Carr]

There are lots of situations where you will be advised "get it in writing" even though the Statute of Frauds does not apply.

[David Nieporent]

Or are you saying that Presidents can pardon somebody just by thinking about it?

No. Do you see any words anything like that anywhere in my post? As with declassification, the president must (a) intend to do it; and (b) communicate that intent with enough specificity that others can carry it out. (i.e., in the case of a pardon, the scope of the intended pardon needs to be made clear by the president).

That's what is so great about the fact that, when Trump signs a bill or EO, he does so personally, in front of cameras, with witnesses.

Again, JFC: it's called a photo op, and every president does that when he thinks a photo op will be useful. And every president, including Trump, skips that the vast majority of the time.

[LexAquilia]

>No. Do you see any words anything like that anywhere in my post? As with declassification, the president must (a) intend to do it; and (b) communicate that intent with enough specificity that others can carry it out. (i.e., in the case of a pardon, the scope of the intended pardon needs to be made clear by the president).

Where do those rules come from? Statute?

[Brett Bellmore]

"and (b) communicate that intent with enough specificity that others can carry it out. (i.e., in the case of a pardon, the scope of the intended pardon needs to be made clear by the president)."

Right, and what I'm saying is that the autopen doesn't DO that, it doesn't confirm intent, because anybody can press the button and out comes a Presidential signature. Signatures by autopen cease to be evidence of anything but some unknown person pressing a button.

" And every president, including Trump, skips that the vast majority of the time."

No, once Trump realized there was a problem with autopens, (Didn't happen immediately, granted.) he established a policy of never using them for anything that had legal force.

[Malika the Maiz]

You think he physically signed those pardons?

[Brett Bellmore]

He physically signed a group pardon.

Trump pardons Capitol rioters, signs executive actions

[Malika the Maiz]

How is that better than a President saying “auto pen this stack of clemency grants collected by class criteria?”

[David Nieporent]

Right, and what I'm saying is that the autopen doesn't DO that, it doesn't confirm intent, because anybody can press the button and out comes a Presidential signature. Signatures by autopen cease to be evidence of anything but some unknown person pressing a button.

A wet signature doesn't do so either. If an aide puts 200 pardons on the president's desk for signature, do you think that the president reads each piece of paper? Or instead that he just goes to the signature block on each page and affix his name by rote?

No, once Trump realized there was a problem with autopens, (Didn't happen immediately, granted.) he established a policy of never using them for anything that had legal force.

No. Once Trump decided to make a fake issue out of autopen use, people pointed out that he had used them too, and then he claimed without evidence that he only used them for unimportant papers. (Actually, since it's Trump, he said "very unimportant papers," because he speaks like a toddler.) But the problem is that, since then, he has still claimed that he didn't sign papers that had his signature on them. Like his AEA proclamation.

[bernard11]

That's what is so great about the fact that, when Trump signs a bill or EO, he does so personally, in front of cameras, with witnesses.

You're besotted.

Answer Hobie's question. Did Trump personally sign all those pardons?

[Brett Bellmore]

Here, you can watch him do it yourself.

One pardon, with a list of 1,500 names on it.

[hobie]

Aren't pardons supposed to be particularized?

[Brett Bellmore]

I'm unaware of any constitutional requirement to that effect. That's certainly not historical practice.

[Michael P]

Says what? The same (non-existent) law that says they're supposed to be signed or documented at all?

[Martinned]

I assume we're all super-outraged that Trump is burying the Epstein files to cover up his crimes and the crimes of the rest of the "elites"? I mean, in the entire history of Truth Social nobody has ever been ratio'ed as badly as this:

What’s going on with my “boys” and, in some cases, “gals?” They’re all going after Attorney General Pam Bondi, who is doing a FANTASTIC JOB! We’re on one Team, MAGA, and I don’t like what’s happening. We have a PERFECT Administration, THE TALK OF THE WORLD, and “selfish people” are trying to hurt it, all over a guy who never dies, Jeffrey Epstein. For years, it’s Epstein, over and over again. Why are we giving publicity to Files written by Obama, Crooked Hillary, Comey, Brennan, and the Losers and Criminals of the Biden Administration, who conned the World with the Russia, Russia, Russia Hoax, 51 “Intelligence” Agents, “THE LAPTOP FROM HELL,” and more? They created the Epstein Files, just like they created the FAKE Hillary Clinton/Christopher Steele Dossier that they used on me, and now my so-called “friends” are playing right into their hands. Why didn’t these Radical Left Lunatics release the Epstein Files? If there was ANYTHING in there that could have hurt the MAGA Movement, why didn’t they use it? They haven’t even given up on the John F. Kennedy or Martin Luther King, Jr. Files.

Apparently even MAGA conspiracy-theorists won't believe that Obama and Clinton sat in a dark room somewhere with a typewriter forging the Epstein files.

Here is Mike Flynn, always the voice of sanity:

.@realDonaldTrump please understand the EPSTEIN AFFAIR is not going away.

If the administration doesn’t address the massive number of unanswered questions about Epstein, especially the ABUSE OF CHILDREN BY ELITES (it is very clear that abuse occurred), then moving forward on so many other monumental challenges our nation is facing becomes much harder.

TRUST was deeply violated by both @JoeBiden and @BarackObama that your administration MUST be above reproach.

And never forget:

“anyone who causes these little ones to stumble, it would be better to have a millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.”

We cannot allow pedophiles to get away. I don’t personally care who they are or what elite or powerful position they hold. They must be exposed and held accountable!!!
@glennbeck

ALERT: Glenn Beck files FOIA request for all of Dan Bongino’s texts and emails regarding Jeffrey Epstein that were sent to Pam Bondi.

What would we do without Glenn Beck?

[Kazinski]

I am not too surprised no Epstein client list has surfaced because if there were a cover-up it would have happened in 2008 when Epstein got his sweetheart deal from the Bush administration.

I know Dershowitz is saying he saw a client list, he also says he doesn't know if the government ever got it.

Just seems if Epstein was blackmailing people and had a list he would have destroyed it all when he had his narrow escape in 2008. The FBI didn't raid his island until 2019, more than a decade after he went to prison on the state prosecution charge and got the no-prosecution agreement from the DOJ.

[Dr. Ed 2]

Bondi claims that is all downloaded kiddie porn. Other than showing it in court, how would they convict him of possession were he alive? Cant bondi do the same thing here?

[Martinned]

Well, she would say that. After all, it's her entire job to bury this case.

[Kazinski]

She said the videos are, she didn't say all the material was.

[Sarcastr0]

I've noted Kaz is on the MAGA Trump ride or die side, but there are plenty here more steeped in the paranoid style of conservative politics who can't turn on a dime after so many years.

Trump's response to try and turn the whole thing into a Democratic plot is pretty funny. That's going to please no one and keep this alive for another cycle for sure!

And I note this is the one conspiracy theory Brett's been mighty silent on!

[Martinned]

Let's see how many MAGAs will take this as an excuse to quit their difficult government jobs and go back into the lucrative private sector grift.

[Sarcastr0]

I doubt many. Because they're all still grifting while in office.

Arrive at work at the crack of 9 with your DOGE buddies, cloister yourself in your office till lunch tweeting about how hard you're working.
Do some insider trading and write an e-mail telling the civil servants to do the work of meeting some firing quota.
Don't bother cc'ing the actual political appointee.

[Martinned]

Sure, but that's not nearly as lucrative as having a podcast and selling crap on the internet.

[Mr. Bumble]

Hahahahahahaha.
Il Douche describes himself.

[Bob from Ohio]

Sounds like DOGE works more than the average civil servant.

[Kazinski]

I don't have to worry about turning on a dime, I was never invested in Epstein conspiracies, although I was in for a the he didn't kill himself memes, although suicide always seemed the most likely to me.

[Stephen Lathrop]

Kazinski — If the administration has the list, it is now in position to blackmail whoever is on it. Trump would never give up a power like that if he had it.

[Brett Bellmore]

I have assumed all along that, if there was a list, it has long since been destroyed, and that was what the new prosecution of Epstein was about: They were finally confident there weren't any loose copies hidden anywhere.

[Sarcastr0]

Who is "they," Brett?

[hobie]

This is my favorite part:

"Why are we giving publicity to Files written by Obama, Crooked Hillary, Comey, Brennan, and the Losers and Criminals of the Biden Administration"

It admits "the list" exists, and has been read and analyzed, and has been determined to have been written by Hillary and Obama. Otherwise, the unthinkable: one of the pillars of MAGA-hood has been a lie all along

[Frank Drackman]

Glenn Beck used to do a bit on "Good Friday" set to Pink Floyd's "Comfortably Numb" almost enough to turn me into a Hey-Zeus freak.

[David Nieporent]

If the administration doesn’t address the massive number of unanswered questions about Epstein, especially the ABUSE OF CHILDREN BY ELITES (it is very clear that abuse occurred), then moving forward on so many other monumental challenges our nation is facing becomes much harder.

More evidence that Flynn is a QAnoner, even if he has angrily tried to deny that.

[hobie]

Oh? Has Flynn renounced his QAnon-ship?

[Martinned]

I thought Trump was Q? What happened to that?

[hobie]

Ironically, a central Q tenet is that Democrats control a secret worldwide cabal that sexually abuses children and only Donald Trump can stop them.

But as of this week...ouch!

[hobie]

One positive of the MAGA/Epstein Cover-up is that us Libs now get to go full Q and proclaim truthfully that MAGA heads a worldwide cabal that sexually abuses children

[LawTalkingGuy]

Pedocon theory is a theory like gravity is a theory.

[Krayt]

They created the Epstein Files, just like they created the FAKE Hillary Clinton/Christopher Steele Dossier...

Yeah...pre-planting the idea the list is fake, should it somehow see the light of day.

This is sketchy as hell.

[Riva]

Idiotic assessment Matrinned. If there was anything incriminating President Trump on those files, the repulsively abusive lawfare hacks in the Biden regime would have leaked this information long ago. President Trump is most definitely NOT implicated. Clinton and other prominent leftists, yeah most probably. Actually Clinton is more of an absolutely.

[Malika the Maiz]

“President Trump is most definitely NOT implicated.”

Then why not release them to prove it? Riva bot malfunctioning.

[Riva]

Maybe you should get back to following Elmo posts? A lot of material you would like there.

[Martinned]

Meanwhile, the New York Times is still an embarrassment as well:

President Trump said on Saturday he was considering revoking Rosie O’Donnell’s U.S. citizenship. Trump has feuded with the comedian and actress since before he became president. Experts said the president does not have the power to take away the citizenship of a U.S.-born citizen.

Yeah, experts say. Because otherwise we might wonder...

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/12/us/politics/trump-rosie-odonnell-citizenship.html

[Dr. Ed 2]

Someone with ADHD is often more suprised at what he hears himself say than anyone else is.

[Bob from Ohio]

"experts say"

That's just boilerplate they use for everything.

[Martinned]

I guess there's at least one judge who didn't get the memo.

In a searing ruling against the Trump administration, a federal judge on Friday temporarily blocked federal agents from using racial profiling to carry out indiscriminate immigration arrests that advocates say have terrorized Angelenos, forced people into hiding and damaged the local economy.

The ruling by U.S. District Judge Maame Ewusi-Mensah Frimpong, an appointee of President Biden, was widely hailed by immigrant rights groups and California Democrats, who have been in a pitched battle with the administration over recent sweeps through Southern California immigrant neighborhoods.

If adhered to, the ruling would stop immigration agents from roving around Home Depots and car washes, stopping brown-skinned, Spanish-speaking day laborers and others to arrest on immigration charges, as they have been for the past month.

And yes, it really does say "if adhered to". Because that's the kind of country the US is right now. Deal with it.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-07-11/federal-judge-temporarily-halts-alleged-indiscriminate-immigration-stops

[Dr. Ed 2]

Lets throw the judge in jail.

[Frank Drackman]

I hope it was a written opinion, be hard to understand him with all the Clicks and glottal stops

[LexAquilia]

That will be an under appreciated comment.

[Malika the Maiz]

A fascist, a nutty weirdo and a white supremacist walk into a Reason comment thread.

Conservative populism, folks!

[Frank Drackman]

A Black, a Homo, and a Retard walk into a Bar,
Oh wait, it's just Queenie

[Malika the Maiz]

Sad internet busker.

[Bwaaah]

LOL. Cheap but good.

[Malika the Maiz]

Aw, lil’ Bwaaah has found a friend (like most of his in the past it’s a made up one of course, but better than nothing I guess).

[Kazinski]

Orin Kerr's take:
"I don't see how this is a lawful injunction in light of City of LA v. Lyons."

https://x.com/OrinKerr/status/1943890017476391183?t=A0MT0KYCfW4mJ4QcNrSIyg&s=19

"The court says this, but I don't see how that covers it; the issue is not whether the conduct will happen to someone, but if it will happen to the plaintiff. Can you just defeat Lyons by adding a bunch of plaintiffs and saying, well, this may happen to someone? I'm skeptical."
https://x.com/OrinKerr/status/1943890784383906238?t=gL1n8rgYS-gdpTM9PiO6-g&s=19

I'd say the injunction is on pretty thin ice.

[Martinned]

There was a time when he would have blogged about that here...

[Kazinski]

He's probably busy, got a new book out, he blogged about that.

A few lines on X is hardly enough for a blog post.

[Sarcastr0]

City of LA v. Lyons is about needing to show actual individualized harm from state action.

The nut here is the alleged racial profiling.
That's an EPC claim, and group standing has been allowed for such cases. See, e.g. voting rights cases.

I looked up 'standing and racial profiling' and a student note by a later 4A scholar came up that seems to address the issue: https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6566&context=faculty_scholarship

"Lyons analysis focuses exclusively on an individual's likelihood of future harm because the Court was reluctant to let the grievance of one individual support city-wide injunctive relief Where racial profiling cases raise equal protection claims alleging that groups of individuals are targeted by police, the concerns supporting the Lyons requirement become less relevant. Although the Court has never explicitly distinguished Lyons, in the Court's equal protection decisions, standing is presumed where a group is harmed. Following these decisions, Lyons should be distinguished in racial profiling cases."

So, despite Kerr, I think this is at the very least an open question.

[Bob from Ohio]

"student note"

That's your argument, a student note versus Professor Kerr? Kinda weak.

[Sarcastr0]

I'm not leaning on authority, it's the argument I'm pointing to. And the content - it cites multiple lines of EPC cases to make it's case.

It's a really impressive student note; that Brandon Garrett went on to be a 4A law prof does not surprise me.

[SRG2]

Gestapo Barbie is saying that the judges are preventing ICE from doing something she denies they do...

Noem on blocked ICE operations ruling: Judges are ‘getting too political’

[Bob from Ohio]

"Barbie "

Sexist much?

[SRG2]

Fuck off. You're okay with fascism, but this you have an issue with?

Barbie fits - she's a plastic woman who got the job because of her looks.

[Malika the Maiz]

He has no issue with that, he thinks you must have and is mad when you don’t follow his caricature.

[Bob from Ohio]

"Barbie fits"

If a conservative said that about a Democrat woman, you'd have a week long meltdown.

[Sarcastr0]

Counterfactual hypocricy is so easy to prove!

[Sarcastr0]

Bob, this you?

"No not guilty today. Did he climax during the hearing and sleeping it off? Or day drinking because of the wrist slapping?"

[Bob from Ohio]

Yes it is. Last time I Looked NG was not a woman.

His obsession with Trump is what I mocked, not his looks.

Amazing that you keep a log of comments to bring up years later though.

[John F. Carr]

If Trump pardoned Sheriff Joe for violating a similar injunction he will pardon ICE agents following his orders.

If the courts are so inclined, they could make up a new doctrine saying federal agents are subject to state criminal jurisdiction if they violate an injunction.

[Bob from Ohio]

"new doctrine saying federal agents are subject to state criminal jurisdiction if they violate an injunction"

Isn't there a removal statute protecting federal employees from this?

[John F. Carr]

The agents could move the case to federal court. Federal common law would determine the scope of official immunity.

An Idaho prosecutor filed charges against the agents involved in the Ruby Ridge shooting. The Ninth Circuit decided the state had made sufficient allegations to take the case to trial, under conditions very favorable to the defense. After an election, the new prosecutor decided not to continue the case. The Ninth Circuit then vacated its decision so there is no good precedent.

[Martinned]

US free speech and freedom of the press still going strong:

A federal judge has granted a temporary restraining order that blocks Los Angeles police officers from using rubber projectiles and other so-called less-lethal munitions against reporters covering protests against the Trump administration’s immigration crackdown.
(...)
Vera’s order bars the department from using less-lethal munitions and other crowd-control tools such as chemical irritants and flash-bang grenades “against journalists who are not posing a threat of imminent harm to an officer or another person.”

Glad we cleared that up.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-07-11/federal-judge-lapd-journalists-order

[Dr. Ed 2]

And everyone becomes press.

[Martinned]

If that's what it takes to make sure people "who are not posing a threat of imminent harm to an officer or another person" don't get shot by the police, I'm not sure why you'd object.

[Nelson]

Because he’s a psychopath who advocates for civil war. Duh.

[LexAquilia]

Go post this complaint on X so I can report you to your Queen. You'll face 20 years in prison for that tweet.

[Frank Drackman]

Good, use the regular bullets

[John F. Carr]

The LA situation reminds me of the SF novel Oath of Fealty by Niven and Pournelle. It is set in a near-future LA, relative to 1980. Our heroes are subject to an order to stop using force to defend their city and things go downhill from there.

[Dr. Ed 2]

I dont think Trump slept with any of Epsteins minors because Trump would have bragged about it.

[Frank Drackman]

Just when I think you couldn't say anything stupider, you post a comment like that.

[hobie]

Back when he was running teen pageants and the two men were besties, Trump used to brag about Epstein's lifestyle. Do you think enough time has passed between then and now to make their relationship irrelevant?

[LexAquilia]

>“**Mr. Biden did not individually approve each name for the categorical pardons** that applied to large numbers of people, he and aides confirmed. Rather, after extensive discussion of different possible criteria, he signed off on the standards he wanted to be used to determine which convicts would qualify for a reduction in sentence,” The New York Times reported.

Let's hope this means people are going to prison.

[David Nieporent]

This is a stupid attempt at a gotcha by morons. Do MAGA people think — okay, bad choice of words. Do MAGA people believe that when Donald Trump pardoned the J6ers, he mentioned each one by name? Or did he just tell his staff, "I want all of them pardoned"?

[hobie]

J6ers?! The ones who beat on cops? They were pardoned?!

[Nelson]

They were all peaceful tourists, don’t you know? The smashed doors and windows, overrun barriers, and attacks on law enforcement were all false flag operations by Antifa and the deep state to prevent MAGA patriots from exposing the stolen election. Duh.

[Frank Drackman]

I just realized the Barenaked Ladies tune "One Week"
is about a guy who killed his Girlfriend

"How can I help it if I think you're funny when you're mad?
Trying hard not to smile, though I feel bad
I'm the kind of guy who laughs at a funeral
Can't understand what I mean? Well, you soon will"

It's not quite the Beatles White Album, but alot of weird things in that song.

Frank

[Martinned]

Imagine being so shameless that even Gianni Infantino thinks you need to get off the stage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_YQn_vISYM

But yes, now we know that Chelsea is the best football club in the world. You know, the club that finished the Premier League season 15 points behind Liverpool (which wasn't at this club world cup thing), 5 points behind Arsenal (which also wasn't there for some reason), and even behind Manchester City (which was there, but phoned it in).

[Malika the Maiz]

FIFA really beclowned itself further with that tournament.

[Martinned]

They've risen to Trump-level cringe, that's for sure. Check out the inscription on the trophy:

“The golden era of club football: the era of the Club World Cup. The pinnacle of all club competition. Inspired by FIFA President Gianni Infantino, the competition, first staged in 2025, eclipses any precedent.”

[Malika the Maiz]

It was a gaudy money grab from the get go.

[Frank Drackman]

and it's Soccer, so nobody really cares

[Swede425]

LOL!
Thought the same thing.
As soon as I figured that his gibberish was about soccer I moved on.

[SRG2]

But the cup was a yuge success. For :Infantino, financially, that is. He's a bigger crook than his predecessor.

[Malika the Maiz]

Trump publicly threatened to revoke the citizenship of Rosie O’Donnoll. This is like Obama threatening to revoke Kevin Sorbo’s citizenship. There’s really only two explanations for this: he was serious and thus Trump is prone to petulant abuse of the powers of his office or he was joking and this is a completely unserious and unprofessional official. Either way it’s pretty damning.

[Martinned]

The better way to think about it is both. These authoritarians joke exactly about things they're serious about. That's their entire shtick. If you complain you get told that leftists don't have a sense of humour, and three weeks later there's a concentration camp in Florida.

[Frank Drackman]

Funny how people tend to seek revenge, almost like it's a basic Human Instinct

[Malika the Maiz]

Totally an instinct we want to support in the most powerful federal official!

[Bwaaah]

Yes. But when it's something you support, you call it "justice" instead of "revenge."

[Malika the Maiz]

A whataboutism wrapped in an every accusation, is a confession good job!

[Martinned]

Because today is Bastille Day, it is the day when the French honours are announced. Most importantly, Gisèle Pelicot has been created a Knight in the Légion d'Honneur.

In US-centric news, Pharrell Williams, the artistic director of Louis Vuitton, also got a knighthood.

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/jo/2025/07/13/0162

[hobie]

There, raped woman gets a knighthood. Here, E Jean Carroll is just a lying bitch. Jeez we're disgusting

[Mr. Bumble]

E. Jean Carroll is just a lying, crazy bitch (fixed that for you).

[SRG2]

The moment Trump's defence became, "she's not my type", I believed Carroll.

[David Nieporent]

Yes. But doubly reinforced when it turned out she was his type!

[Frank Drackman]

She has a Vagina? that's my type.

[Mr. Bumble]

So does Rosie Odonnell; want to rethink your reply?

[Frank Drackman]

You sure about that?

[SRG2]

Yup. I've posted this before: which is Marla Maples and which is Jean Carroll?

[hobie]

Hmmm. I wasn't aware that back in the day when Trump digitally raped her that she was a hottie...and a Marla Maples lookalike to boot! Interesting

[Brett Bellmore]

Regardless, the simple fact that she couldn't identify the day that the attack supposedly happened should have been fatal.

We see that a lot: Somebody in politics being accused of doing something awful years and years ago, without any specific date, (Oh, no, they might have an alibi if you provided a date, can't have that!) without witnesses, without any contemporary confirmation.

As a matter of principle, I do not believe that stale accusations lacking enough specificity to disprove should be credited.

[hobie]

"As a matter of principle, I do not believe that stale accusations lacking enough specificity to disprove should be credited."

I'll give you this one chance to retract that statement, Brett. Otherwise I could bust your balls with it for years...if not retroactively

[Brett Bellmore]

How so? Do YOU think somebody should be able to accuse you of doing something awful a decade or two ago, not even pin it down to the exact year, not produce witnesses or contemporaneous records, and get it taken seriously?

I think it is a basic issue of justice that, if an accusation is to be taken seriously by the legal system, it should be specific enough to allow it to be disproven, and accompanied by at least SOME evidence beyond the accusation itself.

It's just too easy to accuse people of long ago crimes for political effect.

[hobie]

"Why are we giving publicity to Files written by Obama, Crooked Hillary, Comey, Brennan, and the Losers and Criminals of the Biden Administration"

[David Nieporent]

it should be specific enough to allow it to be disproven,

Um, defendants in our legal system do not need to disprove anything.

[Michael P]

DaMN, that was even stupider than your usual. Carroll didn't press criminal charges, and Brett did not limit his comment to criminal cases.

[Sarcastr0]

Haha, Michael care to think that through, even in the civil context?

[David Nieporent]

DaMN, that was even stupider than your usual. Carroll didn't press criminal charges, and Brett did not limit his comment to criminal cases.

He talked about crimes. But my statement is true in the civil context, too: the burden of proof is on the accuser.

[bernard11]

Regardless, the simple fact that she couldn't identify the day that the attack supposedly happened should have been fatal.

Regardless, the simple fact that she couldn't identify the day that the attack supposedly happened should have been fatal.

Really? I remember things that happened years ago, but can't tell you the date.

As a matter of principle, I do not believe that stale accusations lacking enough specificity to disprove should be credited.

Yes. You would never make an accusation that lacked specificity or evidence.

LOL.

[Brett Bellmore]

"Really? I remember things that happened years ago, but can't tell you the date."

Yeah, me, too. None of them are crimes I expect the legal system to take seriously, though.

Like, in elementary school I tried chatting up a pretty girl, my very first effort of the sort. Little did I realize that a nerd like me wasn't allowed to talk to a girl like her. I ended up held down by several other students while she kicked me in the balls. Elementary school in the late 60's could be pretty brutal at times for a kid with no social skills.

It's not an accident that i didn't work up the nerve to go out on a date until my late 30's, you know. Every damn time I tried to ask a girl out after that, I'd panic and stop.

But would I accuse her of it, decades later, assuming I finally remembered her name? (Didn't actually get as far as asking for it.) And expect the legal system to take me seriously? No, I would not. Why should anybody believe me? Seriously, I'm probably the only person involved who still recalls it happening. How would you even go about defending against an accusation like that?

I do not think the legal system should take seriously accusations of long ago crimes, that do not come with substantial proof they occurred, or enough detail to disprove. As a fundamental matter of meta-justice.

[Sarcastr0]

I don't think memory always works like you insist it does.

[Brett Bellmore]

I'm not talking about how memory works, I'm talking about how a legal system should work.

[Sarcastr0]

A legal system that doesn't deal with people as they are seems a pretty poor thing to want.

You want a bright line rule that makes rape a lot harder to prosecute.

Seems bad.

[Brett Bellmore]

No, I want a bright line that makes rape a lot harder to prosecute if you say it happened a long while back and you don't have any evidence that it happened. Not just rape, all crimes.

You're trying to make a "But, rape!" argument for compromising standards of proof necessary to drag somebody into the legal system. I'm not having any of that. Just because a crime is particularly horrible doesn't mean you get to try somebody on a reduced evidentiary basis.

[David Nieporent]

Regardless, the simple fact that she couldn't identify the day that the attack supposedly happened should have been fatal. […] As a matter of principle, I do not believe that stale accusations lacking enough specificity to disprove should be credited.

Okay, but those are jury questions. Trump was perfectly free to make those arguments to the jurors, and did. And they were perfectly free to believe the testimony, or not.

And, FTR, there was evidence she told people at the time.

[Brett Bellmore]

And I'm saying that they shouldn't be jury questions, that unless an accusation clears some minimal bar of evidence, it should never reach a jury.

[Sarcastr0]

You, who extoll the jury system way more than actual history suggests, don't trust the jury for this?!

[Brett Bellmore]

My defense of trial by jury doesn't rest on thinking juries are made up of angels, but on thinking prosecutors' offices aren't. And as the process is the punishment, I think a certain evidentiary threshold needs to be cleared to impose that punishment.

[Sarcastr0]

Avoiding criminal process as punishing seems a much more general issue. One criminal justice reformers have been on about for a long long time.

And yet you draw the line in this very specific place and nowhere else. And attack prosecutors as a group as well.

This is special pleading, and I don't care for it.

[Frank Drackman]

Yes Hobie-Stank, you and E Jean Carroll are certainly disgusting

[Mr. Bumble]

Yawn.

[Bob from Ohio]

"Most importantly"

Alternatively, none of these honors are important.

[Martinned]

Speaking of things that I'm sure we're all outraged by:

Israeli settlers beat U.S. citizen to death in West Bank

Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank beat a U.S. citizen to death, according to local officials, during a Friday confrontation between a group of Israelis and Palestinians.

A municipal official and a relative of 21-year-old Sayfollah Musallet confirmed his death to NPR. Musallet was born in Florida and was in the village of Sinjil this week visiting family.

The Israeli military said that a confrontation had broken out between Palestinians and Israelis, and officials were investigating reports of a Palestinian civilian killed.

A U.S. embassy spokesperson confirmed Musallet's death.

Israeli officials rarely prosecute those accused of violence against Palestinians, and when they do, a very small percentage end in conviction.

[santamonica811]

It made the national news here in LA, but no idea if it will become a one or two-day story, or will have legs to become something really big.

I no longer have any idea what outrages "America" any more. (The things that tend to outrage me often get a collective yawn from flyover country . . . and perhaps vice-versa.)

[Armchair]

Here you go.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/while-abroad/death-abroad1/death-statistics.html

[Sarcastr0]

Armchair trying for 'one death is a statistic.'

[Frank Drackman]

Since it's National Pubic Radio, I'm sure it's (Redacted)
So Israel Settlers beat a Terrorist to death? Good, too bad it doesn't happen here.

Frank

[Malika the Maiz]

If it had been a black embryo the sad, weirdo writer of the Frank Fakeman character performed here would have him weeping. But it’s just a born Palestinian-American, so good, amirite?

If anything HRC was being too limited in calling a bunch of MAGAns deplorable, they’re weird and deranged as well.

[Frank Drackman]

Done tole you, ain't got no job, how I sposed to get money to pay dis rent? Think you can let me slide it on? I'll have it for you tomorrow, next week, I don't know.

[Malika the Maiz]

Pathetic internet busker.

[Frank Drackman]

Everybody funny, especially you

[hobie]

Frankie's 'sanctity of life' crusade don't seem so genuine, does it?

[Commenter_XY]

https://www.frontpagemag.com/media-claims-israelis-killed-us-citizen-fails-to-report-he-was-hamas/

You mean the hamas supporter?

American or not, when you affiliate with hamas and die, I won't mourne the loss. Neither will others.

[Nelson]

Sure, it’s another “Hamas supporter”. If we believed it when the right calls someone a Hamas supporter, there would be more of them than the entire population of America at this point.

[Bob from Ohio]

There is no actual reliable evidence that this dude was killed by Jews.

[hobie]

What are Israeli settlers doing in the West Bank? Purchasing land?

[Frank Drackman]

Doing what settlers do, settle.

[hobie]

Let me get this straight. If I were walking around and see a village I like...I can just take it?! Holy eminent domain! But what do I do with the villagers?

BiBi at a campaign dinner, shouting and wild eyed, holding up a flaming torch: "Weeza gonna rid the South of the neegra and the Arab! And weeza gonna do it...dressed up!!!...like scaaaaary ghosts!"

[Drewski]

Huh. Are you saying that blacks in the Jim Crow era committed organized rape, murder, and kidnapping, like Hamas? I don't support that version of history at all.

[Nelson]

They’re Israeli. They don’t need to purchase it, their government will steal it for them.

Israel is usually right on issues in the Middle East, but their illegal settlements and brutal, unjustified occupation of the West Bank is one of the few places they are 100% wrong.

[Drewski]

Israel acquired the land from Jordan and owns it. They once agreed to give it up, but that was contingent on Palestine not shooting rockets at them. Currently they own it, and the Palestinians squatting on Israeli land are the illegal settlers.

[hobie]

Jordan gave state control to Israel. The Palestinians who owned the land never gave up their ownership to either Jordan or Israel. You're basically saying that because my house is in America, then America owns it. or maybe you could just stop supporting land confiscation

[Bob from Ohio]

"Palestinians squatting on Israeli land are the illegal settlers"

Yup.

[Bob from Ohio]

"municipal official and a relative"

"municipal official" = Fatah member

"relative" = likely actual perp

[Malika the Maiz]

The Times Sunday ran an article about how Mamdani supports instituting a higher minimum wage for delivery drivers and more strictly enforcing a provision to require certain buildings to become carbon neutral by 2050. This guy ran on making living in the city more affordable.

Good luck New York!

[Martinned]

What will New Yorkers do if they have to pay a bit more for their food deliveries? Communism, I say!

[Malika the Maiz]

Well, it’s not going to make things generally more affordable.

[Stephen Lathrop]

It's going to make things generally more affordable for delivery drivers. Other similar measures could help others. If you think that leads toward paradox, that too can at least look susceptible to policy correction, by extensive, far reaching measures, widely targeted.

For instance, restricting NYC real estate ownership to American citizens who occupy the units they own. I have no idea whether doing that would create legal problems which cannot be solved by politics. But it would presumably make things generally more affordable for American citizens who live in New York.

[Malika the Maiz]

“It's going to make things generally more affordable for delivery drivers.”

At the expense of those who use their services.

[Drewski]

That's a good point. People who use services should get them for just the bare subsistence cost of the worker.
Maybe we should institute a system where some workers don't get paid at all so others can benefit. We can color-code them to avoid confusion.

[jb]

I don't think when he said he was going to make the city more affordable, he meant for completely discretionary services.

On the other had, I agree that there's tension between trying to make buildings carbon neutral and making them affordable. This sort of regulatory burden is a big part of why housing is so expensive and hard to create in Democratic jurisdictions.

Having said that: I can't find the article you're referring to. Got a pointer?

[Bwaaah]

Stephen Lathrop: "For instance, restricting NYC real estate ownership to American citizens who occupy the units they own."

Yay! No more landlords renting out units! And especially foreign ones!

[David Nieporent]

Lathrop is not what you'd call an economic genius. Does he think many individuals can afford to own high-rise apartment buildings?

[jb]

In NYC, high rise buildings (for people to own) are subdivided into condominium units which are actually real property and which normal people can afford to buy. Not necessarily agreeing that it's a good idea, but it would be perfectly feasible to require that those condos are owned by US citizens.

There's also coops, where the real property is indeed owned by a corporation, but it would be easy enough to structure the law for that particular ownership structure.

Edited to add: I think they way I'd approach the problem is just to have differential tax rates for people who file taxes as residents of NYC versus those who don't. I haven't thought deeply about the problem, but I do think the problem of a bunch of units sitting around owned but empty while there's a housing crisis is indeed something worth trying to solve.

[David Nieporent]

Co-ops are a lot more numerous in NYC than condos. But also, is he planning to outlaw apartment rental?

[Bwaaah]

Many tax laws (and other laws) already distinguish between "primary residences" and "non-primary residences." (I may be getting the terms wrong, but the concept is there.)

Lathrop is too easily drawn to the belief that he can do resource allocation better than the market price system.

[Bwaaah]

Malika: "Well, it’s not going to make things generally more affordable."

Holy shit! I agree with you!

[Malika the Maiz]

You finally get to feel right about something, write it down in your diary tonight!

[John F. Carr]

I thought New York was going to regulate food deliveries out of existence. Delivery drivers and riders are very unpopular.

[hobie]

Or we can just go back to pre-2020 when we walked to the corner store to get an Evian. There! I just fixed the affordability thingy! They should make me the HNIC!

[Frank Drackman]

Not familiar with that Acronym (it's actually "HMFIC") Hobie-stank's gone from stealing Valor to stealing Melanin

Frank

[Armchair]

Just to review. Last week, federal officials rescued several children who were without parents and had been working at an illegal drug farm in California.

Liberal protestors were very upset at this, and apparently wanted to continue making these colored children without parents work at their illegal drug farm.

At what point does the Democratic Party and Liberals come full circle and go back to their pro-slavery policy positions in 1855? Because it looks like they're coming pretty close.

I mean...seriously...how do you defend this? Protesting to keep children without parents working at a drug farm?

[santamonica811]

Was it an illegal drug farm? I had not seen that in the initial reporting? (If you are being deliberately misleading by falling back on the fact that it's 100% legal in California, while illegal under federal law, then shame on you. If the operation was illegal under local, state, federal laws; then that is indeed worthy of mention, and is something that the first reports did not cover at all.)

After years and years of Republican governors championing the legalization of underage labor in factories and farms in their own states; I am overjoyed to see conservative posters here at the Volokh Conspiracy move against this conservative position. I agree that using child labor (both the legal and--OF COURSE--illegal varieties) is awful and should be entirely stamped out. I'm glad that, going forward, we here at the VC will be presenting a unified front decrying this barbaric practice.

Although Armchair and Santamonica are the first to be public, please don't lionize us. We are sure that dozens, nay, hundreds, of you will soon be posting to offer your full-throated and fulsome support of our position. Yay us. Yay us indeed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt2qdgdoBQs

[Armchair]

The "operation" as you call it is illegal under the federal laws of the United States.

If California decided to legalize using children without parents being forced to work in these farms...it would still be illegal under federal law.

[tylertusta]

If you are being deliberately misleading by falling back on the fact that it's 100% legal in California, while illegal under federal law, then shame on you

That's a lot of words trying to pretend that "illegal" doesn't mean "illegal."

It's illegal under federal law, full Jackson stop. When federal law enforcement comes knocking, they're not under any obligation to turn a blind eye to the violations of federal law. Just like the federal government is not obligated to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants even if they have committed no crime.

If you do not like Federal laws, I suggest you reach out to your congresscritters and ask that they repeal them.

[Malika the Maiz]

The Feds haven’t been enforcing a lot of law in that area (you know, like TikTok).

[tylertusta]

Correct. I have a big problem with Trump's non-enforcement of the TikTok law as well.

A lack of enforcement does not mean that a law is repealed. As Trump is amply demonstrating with our immigration laws, a laissez-faire approach our laws one day may not exist the next. TikTok may enjoy non-enforcement now, but Trump is fickle. And the next President may not be as willing to let TikTok slide.

In the same way, turning a blind eye to drugs that are illegal under federal law was always just a measure of discretion in enforcement. There's nothing preventing a change in priorities from cracking down again.

[Malika the Maiz]

My point is that putting “illegal!!!” in there for a marijuana operation that is legal at the state level at a time of prosecutorial discretion of non-enforcement against that kind of operation is doing very little work on the “see how serious this is!!!l” meter.

[tylertusta]

It's not serious unless the Feds decide it is, and then it's as serious as a heart attack.

I can imagine a situation in the future where the DOJ teams up with DHS to take down the whole operation on a combination of drug charges/violating federal labor laws while deporting illegal immigrants at the same time.

From a deterrence perspective it would definitely help curb state-sanctioned scofflaw operations.

[Malika the Maiz]

I meant it doesn’t increase the seriousness of the “child peril” charge.

[tylertusta]

So, your comment of "The Feds haven’t been enforcing a lot of law in that area (you know, like TikTok)" was in regards to child labor laws?

[Malika the Maiz]

Nope. Armchair tried to add “this was an illegal farm!!!” to his moral panic thinking it increased the emotional valence, I pointed out that for a long time the Feds have agreed to look the other way and the states have legalized it so it carries little emotional valence.

[David Nieporent]

Except that — contrary to what you've been writing — federal law does not permit that. For years there's been an appropriations rider preventing the enforcement of federal marijuana laws for operations that are legal at the state level.

[Frank Drackman]

Oh, like they did with Slavery, I get it

[tylertusta]

No, the rider does not prohibit activities to the extent that you're claiming that it does:

Individuals who do not strictly comply with all state-law conditions regarding the use, distribution, possession, and cultivation of medical marijuana have engaged in conduct that is unauthorized, and prosecuting such individuals does not violate [the rider].

United States v. McIntosh, No. 15-10117 (9th Cir. 2016)

Seems to me that an operation that uses illegals as their workforce would have a whole bunch of other illegal activities associated with it from paying under the table, not paying the state- and federal-mandated minimum wage, violating child labor laws as is alleged in this case, and so on.

[Armchair]

Moreover, it's really worth considering the details that all add up to make it very difficult for the kids to leave.

1) They're illegally in another country - their normal support networks are cut off. Many factors available to legal individuals are removed
2) They're kids. They don't know any better.
3) They're unaccompanied: No parents around to help
4) They're working at a drug farm. They can get product "under the table" which is addictive, and keeps them there.
5) They're working at an illegal drug farm. Many legal businesses have reporting requirements that fall into a grey area, at best, for this type of business.

All that combines to make it very difficult for the kids to leave. It's not outright slavery. But it's coming pretty close. And we have laws against most of it, but if they're ignored because it's "inconvenient"...then you see the abuses occur.

[Sarcastr0]

Man you sure did take out that strawman.

Child labor sucks. It's not chattel slavery.

You're attempt to turn America's legacy of slavery into an instrument of your petty partisanship was inevitable, I suppose.

[Brett Bellmore]

It's not always chattel slavery.

[Sarcastr0]

You got any evidence that's relevant here, Brett, or just being a pedant?

[Brett Bellmore]

You're over-generalizing, and I'm correcting you. Yes, even in modern America, occasional instances of chattel slavery surface. Usually involving minor immigrants. What did you think child trafficking was about, anyway?

[Sarcastr0]

Occasional...and not relevant to this discussion at all.

Normal people do not insist that every edge case be included in every statement.

[Brett Bellmore]

Occasional, and it is not yet established if it's relevant to this discussion, you're just assuming the possibility away.

[Sarcastr0]

Hell, lets assume they're child sex slaves, if we're going to speculate without evidence!

Serious claims require serious evidence.

You're not being serious here, you're just grasping.

[Sarcastr0]

Someone got killed in this raid.

Pretending to care about people is just an instrument for you to attack the left.

I mean, slavery? Pot as an "illegal drug farm?" This is the kind of strawman you don't share in public.
It might make you feel righteous, and maybe it'll play on like RushLimbaughFans.com but it's embarrassing to anyone who spends any time at all thinking.

BTW here's the real statement from United Farm Workers: "Farm workers are excluded from basic child labor laws and it is unfortunately not uncommon for teenagers to work in the fields. To be clear: detaining and deporting children is not a solution for child labor."

Doesn't sound like they're defending chattel slavery. What an evil over the top accusation to make!

[Mr. Bumble]

Someone died in this raid. No one was "killed".

[Armchair]

Always trust in Sarcastr0 to defend kids without parents working on drug farms.

[Malika the Maiz]

It’s not defending to say “this is wrong but X is not the proper solution.”

[Armchair]

Reread Sarcastr0's response. He never says "this is wrong".

[Sarcastr0]

I mean, the main thrust of my post is saying Democrats favor slavery because they didn't like this raid where someone was killed is insane.

But I did manage to put in a quote that contradicts your narrative. Once again you're so eager to post you don't read.

[Armchair]

You still haven't said that what was done was wrong. Quoting someone else isn't you saying it.

[Bwaaah]

You missed it. He whispered it through his nose.

I'm kidding. He didn't say anything of the sort.

[Malika the Maiz]

He quoted the union saying it was wrong.

[Armchair]

He never says it is wrong. Sarcastr0 simply quotes someone else.

Sarcastr0 has responded. He still hasn't said it's wrong.

[Malika the Maiz]

His point was you were hypocritical in your saying it was wrong.

[Armchair]

Child labor like this is wrong. If all Sarcastr0 has to fall back on is some vague claims of hypocrisy (where have I ever said Child labor like this is great and awesome by the way)...

He's just avoiding the topic and defending the situation.

Maybe he likes his pot cheap and grown by colored children.

[Malika the Maiz]

Like this is some big weasel words.

[Sarcastr0]

Armchair, how about you stuff it with your 'he didn't actually type out it was wrong!'

Demanding magic words is a bad habit of yours.

Children. Jews. Slaves. Failing at elementary reading comprehension.
All posting weapons to you.

[Brett Bellmore]

"Demanding magic words is a bad habit of yours."

Refusing to say magic words is revealing.

Come on, do your Fonzie imitation. "It was wrong.", it's just 3 words, you can choke them out.

[Sarcastr0]

Refusing to say magic words is revealing.

Literally the opposite of what magic words means, Brett.

I'm not kowtowing to the ask because I don't need to.

If you think I support child labor, you can go fuck yourself.

[Bwaaah]

Sarc: "If you think I support child labor, you can go fuck yourself. "

But you can't say it was wrong. You can't state, and defend, a position. You can only oppose.

Come on. Humor the opposition.

[Sarcastr0]

Your habit of over-the-top strawmanning really makes me wonder how you function in the real world, or if maybe your life is spent on Internet forums.

"Farm workers are excluded from basic child labor laws and it is unfortunately not uncommon for teenagers to work in the fields. To be clear: detaining and deporting children is not a solution for child labor."

[Frank Drackman]

Please Senor Sarcastro, may I have some more Gruel?

[tylertusta]

Your habit of over-the-top strawmanning

LOL

[Commenter_XY]

It is sad this is what s/he is reduced to...defending child slavery and exploitation. You really need to wonder what her/his viewing habits are.

[Krayt]

Pot as an "illegal drug farm?" This is the kind of strawman you don't share in public.

Is that like faceting a misdemenor should be upgraded to a felony because that is required to start a chain of reasoning to get a guy kicked from a ballot?

[jb]

I think you're conflating two different cases, no?

AFAIK, you can't be disqualified from running for office by being convicted of a felony. But NY did indeed convict Trump of some misdemeanors-upgraded-to-felonies.

Separately, some Republicans in Colorado tried to kick Trump off the ballot there. But because he was an insurrectionist, not because he was a felon.

[Bob from Ohio]

"Someone got killed in this raid. "

"Alanis called family to say he was hiding and possibly was fleeing agents" AP article

He was running away and fell. Sad but totally his fault. Nobody from ICE put him on that roof.

[Sarcastr0]

Sad but totally his fault

This is what ambush raids like this cause.

[Bob from Ohio]

"ambush raids "

Common police tactic I think you mean.

If you run from the police and climb onto a roof, its your fault you slipped, not theirs.

[Malika the Maiz]

I’d like to see a citation for these claims.

[Frank Drackman]

the National Pubic Radio reporter commented that these ICE Raids were putting a crimp in a "Multi Million Dollar Business" (will someone tell NPR a Million Dollars isn't that much anymore, my Anesthesia Group is a "Multi Million Dollar Business")
I think she meant the Legal-Marriage-a-Juan-a Bidness, and not the Child Trafficking, but it's NPR so who knows (or cares)

Frank

[hobie]

Now that Trump is not only a rapist but a child sex trafficker, you need to be a little more cautious with the aspersions you sling, Frankie. You wouldn't want to be thought of as a hypocrite, would you?

[Frank Drackman]

it's rape-ist, and that wasn't what the Civil Judgement said he did, like it matters, it's barely been 6 months, gonna be a long 7 more years for you

[Commenter_XY]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/3469454/trump-assassination-attempt-butler-one-year-anniversary-few-answers/

Will we ever know who or what motivated Crooks?

[Malika the Maiz]

It seems to be a thing for certain young men, already on the weird side, to become (something like) schizophrenic around that age. It’s certainly tragic for many involved.

[Frank Drackman]

enough about your life story, and I think you mean "Homo", not "Schizo"

[Malika the Maiz]

This guy literally wakes up and goes to an internet legal blog comment section to “perform” a gonzo character. A lot of MAGAns are incredibly sad weirdos.

[Frank Drackman]

and apparently living rent free in dat nappy hai'd of yours, you should save your fingers for more important activities, like (redacted)

[Malika the Maiz]

It’s no big thing to point out how sad weirdos are so drawn to MAGA. Keep showing how correct that is by doing your sad, weirdo busking.

[Frank Drackman]

I think he wanted to kill Trump, that's usually why you shoot at someone

[hobie]

2016 Debate: Trump on the Clinton Foundation as a criminal enterprise that accepts foreign money:

“Saudi Arabia given $25 million, Qatar, all of these countries. You talk about women and women’s rights? These are people that push gays off business, off buildings. These are people that kill women and treat women horribly and yet you take their money,” Trump said. “So I’d like to ask you right now why don’t you give back the money that you’ve taken from certain countries that treat certain groups of people so horribly?"

The quid pro quo part aside, you hayseeds need to stop treating gays poorly. Dear Leader said so

[Malika the Maiz]

They should have held out for a tricked up plane. Pikers.

[apedad]

“People need to understand, ICE officers and Border Patrol don’t need probable cause to walk up to somebody, briefly detain them, and question them,” (border czar Tom Homan) said on “Fox & Friends” on Friday.

Anybody else appalled by this?

Yes, at border crossings there's a process that all travellers (including US citizens) must follow but he's talking about anywhere - which is unconstitutional.

[Commenter_XY]

Tell Congress to change the law. Good Luck.

[SRG2]

IF an act is unconstitutional, no other law is needed.

[Mr. Bumble]

Then bring an action before a court to get the existing law declared "unconstitutional". Until that happens it is a valid action under existing law.

[David Nieporent]

Um, that's what occasioned Homan's comment: someone brought such an action, and a federal judge enjoined it. And Homan had a tantrum and said that ICE can harass people for looking hispanic and how dare a judge say otherwise.

[Mr. Bumble]

Enjoining an action is not the same as determining its constitutionality after a trial and any appeals.

[SRG2]

No, but it's a start. However, I have the strong intuition that you support Homan here.

[Malika the Maiz]

Even if that were the luck, do you think it’s a good one? Commenter is just a worshiper of power and tribalism.

[Malika the Maiz]

The law

[Commenter_XY]

I favor deporting every illegal alien we can get our hands on. No matter where they are.

[SRG2]

And significantly, you don't care about any checks to make sure that the alien is illegal, rather than legal or legitimately seeking asylum, where they're deported to, and nor do you mind if they're housed in a concentration camp while awaiting deportation.

[Swede425]

Look who is still salty that illegal aliens aren't being housed in fancy hotels anymore.
Isn't that what FEMA money is for?

[SRG2]

There is plenty of space between the Four Seasons and Dachau

[Swede425]

In your fevered imagination:
"tHe'YrE LiTtErAlLy cOnCeNtRaTiOn CaMpS!!!"
Thanks for your input, drama queen.

[SRG2]

It is literally a concentration camp:

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-nazi-camp-system-terminology

Generically defined, a concentration camp is a site for the detention of civilians whom a regime perceives to be a security risk of some sort. What distinguishes it from a prison (in the modern sense) is that incarceration in a concentration camp is independent of any judicial sentence or even indictment, and is not subject to judicial review.

Now fuck off.

[Bob from Ohio]

"Dachau"

Drama queen. No ICE facility is remotely like Dachau.

Just can't resist those nazi comparisons.

[David Nieporent]

No. No illegal aliens were housed in any hotels, let alone fancy ones.

[Stephen Lathrop]

Commenter_XY — Which is not even the issue. You are talking about objections to detaining people of unknown status without probable cause, or even reasonable suspicion. And not just about doing it in some undisciplined field-work happenstance, but a senior official authorizing doing it as policy.

Count yourself an enemy of American constitutionalism.

[bernard11]

Why?

First, it's a cruel and idiotic thing to do.

Second, you can't possibly do it without engaging in massive civil rights violations, some intentional, some not.

Third, you damage a lot of businesses, especially farms.

[David Nieporent]

I favor deporting every illegal alien we can get our hands on. No matter where they are.

Why?

[apedad]

Forgot to add that ICE is allowed to operate within 100 miles of the border - but it's not carte blanche authority either and 4A still applies.

https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone#are-immigration-officials-allowed-to-stop-people-in-places-wholly-inside-the-u-s

[hobie]

Didn't Joe Arpaio break the Constitution the same way?

[hobie]

The Daily Show did a montage of MAGA politicians pulling out their pocket Constitutions and deep-throating them in front of audiences. I leave it to the rubes here to try and guess why they would find it necessary/humorous to bring up MAGA's professed allegiance to the Constitution.

[David Nieporent]

Strictly speaking, that's true, but misleading. What he's describing is a Terry stop, and it requires reasonable suspicion, a lower standard than probable cause. (But it's a higher standard than "His skin is darker than mine!")

[Sarcastr0]

Is ICE analyzed under 4A or as administrative enforcement
I'm not even sure Terry applies.

Police state tactics regardless.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

Terry v. Ohio

Primary Holding

Under the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, a police officer may stop a suspect on the street and frisk him or her without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime and has a reasonable belief that the person "may be armed and presently dangerous."

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/392/1/

A police officer is allowed to "walk up to someone" and "ask questions." This includes asking for identification.

A lower standard of proof, reasonable suspicion, allows a brief detention. This includes American citizens. In fact, not providing your name might lead to an arrest and conviction. If identification is incriminating, requiring it might be problematic.

(See, e.g., Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial Dist. Court.)

We need to be careful to listen to what people are saying. The term "probable cause" is a legal standard. He didn't say "for any reason." Also, what does "brief" mean? Will they be on the floor in handcuffs when they are briefly detained? etc.

Also, realistically, police now have the power (putting aside the right) to stop people on the street and ask them a question. They might be temporarily detained when they do.

If a police officer sees you walking down the street and asks you a question, I would not suggest you just ignore them.

[celec47966]

Major Life Events for the Average Liberal:

Age 4: Win first prize in anal sex lessons at Montessori Pre-K
Age 8: Dad comes out as gay; Mom's first nervous breakdown
Age 10: Mom embarks upon 3 decade long addiction to prescription medication
Age 12: Lose virginity to local gang-banger hand selected by Mom, who watches
Age 13: First Abortion; Family reunites at Applebee's to celebrate
Age 17: College visits; Inquire at registrar about courses in BDSM and Holocaust studies
Age 22-24: The Starbucks Years; 13 more abortions
Age 25-32: Realize that abortions decrease food stamp and welfare payments, and have 7 children with 5 different men
Age 33: Sign up for an Obamaphone
Age 35: First fraudulent disability claim
Age 40: Navigate to the Washington Post; register first account
Age 42: overcome disgust, marry soy boy, become birthing person, squeeze out non binary child
Age 45: Join Antifa, attack police
Age 47: Stage fake hate crimes, cry when caught
Age 51: Make false rape accusations, get hailed as hero by left
Age 56: Convince Medical to pay for transition surgery

[Frank Drackman]

keep going
Age 58: start "Go Fund Me" page when finds out Medicaid doesn't cover Add-a-Dick-to-me procedure

[Sarcastr0]

Wow, this is revealing of what the poster's concerns are.

Highlights include:

Gay men as parents.
Racially mixed sex.
Studying the Holocaust
Fancy coffee
The Washington Post

This is clearly and old copypaste, but you do see the roots of MAGA in there for sure.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

So, an interracial gay couple is drinking fancy coffee while reading a Washington Post article on the Holocaust. Flashing red.

[LexAquilia]

In other words, just your everyday Washington D.C. morning...

[Malika the Maiz]

Lex is afraid the coffee will be black.

[LawTalkingGuy]

Interesting that he describes a rape at age 12 and then pivots to “false rape accusations” at age 51. Maybe because he doesn’t think having sex with a 12 year old is rape? Pedocon theory is a theory like gravity is a theory.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

("Chief Justice") Alito, Kavanaugh, and Jackson together back in December 2016.

https://www.c-span.org/program/public-affairs-event/law-and-romeo-and-juliet/463420

[Frank Drackman]

so where's Jackson? all I see is a Black background

[LawTalkingGuy]

https://www.scotusblog.com/2016/12/friar-laurence-free-to-go-in-case-of-juliet-and-her-romeo/

A summary of the event.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

Thanks.

Both Kavanaugh and Jackson were somewhat familiar to court watchers. Kavanaugh was a controversial court of appeals pick.

There was a little Jackson boomlet (including at Sentencing Law and Policy Blog, where I pushed back at it) for the Scalia seat.

[LexAquilia]

Some more hilarious signs left by the Sacastr0's laid off at State:

"Colleagues, if you remain: RESIST FASCISM, Remember the oath you vowed to uphold"

"Here sat America's experts on democracy, human rights...and more. You've just released them and hundreds of their colleagues into the wild"

"HISTORY WILL REMEMBER WHAT WAS LOST HERE"

"IF YOU SAY YOU LOVE FREEDOM BUT DON'T CARE IF IT APPLIES TO EVERYONE THEN WHAT YOU REALLY LOVE IS PRIVILEGE"

lmao, the only difference between those insufferable self-important signs and a Sacastr0 comment is where they were posted.

lmao get fucked you piece of shit govies.

[Malika the Maiz]

Trump advisor on tv this weekend:

“Hassett: The fact is that the effect that you're just discussing is something that you mentioned that economists said were going to be coming all year, these effects, and inflation is way, way down. In fact, inflation in the U.S. is right about the same level as it is in Europe.”

[John F. Carr]

If the prosecutor in your case was having an affair with another prosecutor who was sexting the judge, do you get your conviction vacated? Joshua Kindred's brief term on the federal bench is the gift that keeps on giving. He resigned under threat of impeachment. The two prosecutors are on administrative leave. Veteran DOJ "fixer" Steven Clymer has been deployed to Alaska to clean up the mess.

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/prosecutors-relationship-raised-in-alaska-misconduct-saga

[hobie]

"Plan to Permanently Displace Palestinians Threatens to Derail Gaza Truce...

...Mr. Katz, the defense minister described the proposed new encampment as a “humanitarian city” that would, at first, house at least 600,000 Palestinians. Mr. Katz said it would later hold the entire population of Gaza, or roughly 2 million people"

Annnnd here come the box cars.

[apedad]

Maybe they can get the Alligator Alcatraz planners to help.

[Martinned]

At least for now what little food does make it to the people of Gaza doesn't have worms in it (to my knowledge). So I don't know that that would be an improvement.

https://apnews.com/article/alligator-alcatraz-immigration-detainees-florida-cc2fb9e34e760a50e97f13fe59cbf075

[Sarcastr0]

The Brazil tariff thread remains indefensible truth that these are not economic tariffs in any way - not for income, not for onshoring, not as an economic negotiating tactic.

This shows tariffs are just another way for this admin to instantiate their will for petty personal reasons. Actually helping America or American's isn't part of this.

[hobie]

But as Kazinski has repeatedly pointed out: We are reaping billions from the foreign companies who's products we import

[Sarcastr0]

All it takes is a little not understanding the federal budget process and you can prove a lot of things!

[Martinned]

"We had some tremendous financial numbers released on Friday as you probably heard that our country made $25 billion last month. $25 billion. It hasn't done that in a long time."

[hobie]

$25 billion straight from the treasury of Mexico to ours.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jul/13/doj-utah-doctor-covid-vaccines

"The US Department of Justice dropped charges on Saturday against Michael Kirk Moore, the Utah doctor accused of destroying more than $28,000 worth of government-provided Covid-19 vaccines and administering saline to children instead of the shot."

[hobie]

"“Dr Moore deserves a medal for his courage and his commitment to healing,” Kennedy Jr said."

"Far-right congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene thanked Bondi in a statement on X and called Moore a “hero who refused to inject his patients with a government-mandated unsafe vaccine”."

"“Dr Moore gave his patients a choice when the federal government refused to do so,” Bondi said. “He did not deserve the years in prison he was facing.”"

[LexAquilia]

Great quotes. The guy is a hero.

Especially given what we know about the dangers of the vaxx now-a-days.

[hobie]

I guess gross malpractice ain't a thing no more.

But here's a thing I noticed: Yet another example of MAGA wrenching away parental control over the medical choices for their children.

So what's the deal with parents and their children, bro?

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

How many children did he save from myocarditis?

Countless.

[LawTalkingGuy]

Not to give credence to anti-vax nonsense, but it wouldn't be countless. Assuming for the sake of argument that 1) all doses would have been administered had he not destroyed them 2) each dose administered would have result in myocarditis, there was a specific number of doses he destroyed and a specific number of placebos he administered. That’s all very countable.

[Malika the Maiz]

He doesn’t know what countless means anymore than he does vaccine science.

[hobie]

Fertility doctor impregnates hundreds of women with own semen.

Bondi: "He was just giving them the choice they didn't know they wanted."

a fertility nurse at a Yale Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility (REI) clinic, stole fentanyl intended for surgery patients and replaced it with saline for her own use.

Bondi: "This brave nurse gave these women the excrutiating pain required for women seeking pregnancy outside of missionary coitus."

[Martinned]

I guess now we know what Emil Bove did to deserve that judgeship: Bury the Epstein files. Let's see how many senators will stand up for the children!

[hobie]

Looks like MAGA's old mantra of 'protect the children' has switched to 'impregnate the children'!

[hobie]

"Chinese University Expels Woman for ‘Improper Contact’ With a Foreigner"

"A Chinese university said that it would expel a student because she had had “improper contact with a foreigner” and “damaged national dignity,” after videos circulated online that suggested she had been intimate with a Ukrainian video gamer."

Chinese MAGA's answer to America's oped-for-peace terrorist crisis. And off to Sea Serpent Alcatraz she goes!

[loki13]

"It will be a long 42 months for them. They need to cry harder."

I saw this upthread. From Commeter_XY. Over and over, I see people abandon their principles because they delight in how anguished "the other side" is. That's not how a civic society works- because that's how you root for a sports team, not how the country is made better. Because sports is a zero-sum game, but (theoretically) we should all be rooting for the country to do well, right? Even if we have different conceptions of what will get us there?

So I'm going to repost what I wrote from a different thread today.

I mean, I could point out that most conservatives might have thought that the following things would be a little, well, sus-
-Deploying the national guard over the objections of state and local leaders.
-Deploying the military on domestic soil for domestic law enforcement.
-Building concentration camps on American soil.
-Unilateral disobedience of court orders.
-Cavalier disregard of fiscal restraint.
-Allowing the Executive to suspend civil law for favored groups indefinitely.
-Allowing the Executive to unilaterally and without review to set all tariffs (taxes on Americans)- for any reason including a dislike of a foreign country's internal policies.
-Directing DOJ attorneys to (at best ... I will put this euphemistically) ... make deliberately misleading statements to the Court. Which causes them to resign (as they should), or comply.
-Claim the ability to deport American citizens without due process, and claim the ability to strip American citizens of their citizenship without due process.
-Arrest, detain, and deport individuals without any review of the lawfulness of those actions.

That's just a small list. Now, I know a lot of you just see that and want to push back (BUT BIDEN! WHAT ABOUT THE JAPANESE INTERNMENT CAMPS!!!! DEMS SPEND MONEY!!11!!!!!). But before you do that, I'd ask that you just sit with it for a second.

Ask yourself what you want, other than making "the other side" unhappy. Then ask yourself, "How would I feel if the next administration was the other side and had these same abilities? Do I think that I want these principles to continue and be used by anyone, or just someone I agree with?"

What principles do you have? What is important to you? Do the ends justify the means, and if so, are you okay with normalizing those means going forward?

[LawTalkingGuy]

Some people are just miserable bastards and that’s all there is to it.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Maybe the reason conservatives arent behaving as you wish is because they dont share the same hot bluesky takes on current events that you believe.

Most conservatives dont watch the View so we arent as influenced by melodramatic drama queens as the Left is.

[loki13]

Weird. As a small "c" conservative, I had assumed basic things like "the rule of law," were important. Given my profession, I do think that I have a decent understanding of the factual basis of the issues- especially the procedural ones, although maybe I am mistaken given your impressive and undoubtedly completely accurate list of letters after your commenting name.

But you're right. Obviously, I am cribbing from that episode of The View where they did an in-depth exploration of the fundamental reorganization of the GOP into a populist and isolationist party that valorizes one-party rule over traditional rule-of-law norms. I guess The View's format has really changed!

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

>Deploying the military on domestic soil for domestic law enforcement

For starters, that is not true. They are deployed to protect ICE agents who are increasingly met with violence.

>Building concentration camps on American soil.

Illegal alien detention centers are not concentration camps, Nancy, nor are they new.

>Cavalier disregard of fiscal restraint.

Like every Congress Republican and Democrat before now.

Did you not remember writing those bullets or did you just blindly copy and paste some talking points from somewhere?

[Bob from Ohio]

Loki's entire thing here is a phony "last reasonable man" attitude.

[Malika the Maiz]

Bob’s thing here is to say screw being reasonable, embrace cynical tribalism.

[Bob from Ohio]

Everyone here, including you, is tribal. Defend my side, attack yours.

Not my fault that you lie about it.

[LawTalkingGuy]

This may surprise you, but not everyone is a cynical asshole like you.

[Sarcastr0]

Pretending for a moment that you post in good faith (you don't - https://reason.com/volokh/2024/08/23/lets-go-brandon-t-shirts-can-be-barred-from-middle-school-on-grounds-of-vulgarity/?comments=true#comment-10698877).

You seem to be taking issue with Loki saying people are disregarding principles because their new loadstone is imagining sad people on the other side.
He is replying to a quote that seems pretty suggestive of that. And it's hardly the only example.

Your argument is that loki is ignorant of real principles at work. Then you strawman him gratuitously (the View? WTF?)
And then your reply is 3 rationalizations for discarding the principles loki laid out.

Even with you shitposting, loki seems to have you dead to rights.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

The comment thread is right there, did you really think you could get away with abusing the truth when its plainly visible?

[Malika the Maiz]

Apart from pedantically missing Loki’s point, isn’t Lex and Magnus the same poster (Chuck)?

[Malika the Maiz]

I’ve long said these MAGAns don’t have principles, they have goals.

[Kazinski]

Most of those are just hyperbole, I'll take just the first few:
Deploying the national guard over the objections of state and local leaders.

The 9th circuit CA looked at that and ruled 3-0 that it was justified, including the lone Biden appointee,, that Kamala had to cast the tieing vote to confirm.

-Deploying the military on domestic soil for domestic law
enforcement.
Same case, no evidence was submitted, and the judges were assured the military was just to protect people and installations and maintain order.

-Building concentration camps on American soil.
They are INS detainment facilities, and almost everyone is free to leave, back to their native countries.

-Unilateral disobedience of court orders.
They have skated a little close yo the line, but so have the judges.

-Cavalier disregard of fiscal restraint.
I've documented over the past week or so this years deficit will be lower as a %of GDP, and may well be lower nominally than fiscal year 2024, next years will be lower as a present of gdp.

Trump's layoffs are a much needed corrective to a federal government that exceeds its needed size and scope.

Thats illustrated by the federal workforces response during Covid, most of them went home for 3-4 years and had to be dragged kicking or screaming back to the office.

[Sarcastr0]

Kaz, are you familiar with what principles are?

[Kazinski]

I know there are 2 different spellings, and 3 distinct meanings, and that none of them are related to hyperbole.

And its impossible to talk about principles if you distort the issues beyond all recognition.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

That's asking for a lot of thinking for the "I'm glad they are hurting the right enemies" crowd. Plus, Josh Blackman is busy writing blog posts.

[apedad]

California secessionists foiled again by signature shortfall

CalExit hoped to gather the necessary 546,651 signatures to get a nonbinding question on the 2028 ballot. Just over a week away from the California secretary of state’s deadline to submit those signatures, CalExit announced that it won’t turn in any names.

https://www.courthousenews.com/california-secessionists-foiled-again-by-signature-shortfall/

Everybody has to have a hobby I guess.

[Brett Bellmore]

Even the left-wingers in California understand that if they did secede, and no longer had the rest of the country restraining their impulses, California would rapidly become a dystopia.

[Malika the Maiz]

I don’t get this. I guess I wasn’t born to be an ideologue. I don’t like a lot of what California’s one party state offers any more than I like what Alabama’s one party state offers. Non-competitive states are the worst imho. But none of them are on the road to dystopia.

[tylertusta]

Is this the same bunch that were funded by Russia and China?

[hobie]

Ah peak summer travel season; my favorite time of year. We've been quietly reducing output by about 75% in our South Texas and Montana shale plays since May. Keeps prices nice and high. Once again I submit to you hayseeds: why should companies like mine drill-baby-drill when we already have so much reserves at our command that we can play with the numbers at will?

Like with Epstein and pretty much everything else, you suckers have been played in service of the grift. As the great Artie Kirkland used to say: 'Open wide, clingers.'

[Malika the Maiz]

I don’t care for the “summer is the time for vakay” worldview. To each their own but I hate the heat more than the cold and while beaches and lakes are nice give me the mountains any day. I guess it’s a function of our nine month public school systems, but you can totally get drunk and act wild in the mountains in November as you can at Ocean City in July.

[hobie]

Amen, brother. No matter what country I visit. I usually spend my time in the remote mountains

[Brett Bellmore]

"but you can totally get drunk and act wild in the mountains in November as you can at Ocean City in July."

Our favorite mountain around here, Mt. Mitchell, is typically closed by then on account of weather. But they're just closed, period, at the moment, until Helene damage can be repaired. Inaccessible, really.

Not surprised, the last time we camped up there tents were being blown away, and that was an ordinary storm by the mountain's standards. I can only imagine the damage Helene did to the roads and infrastructure.

Actually, half the places we used to camp were wiped off the map...

[Kazinski]

Some grift you got going their Hobie:

"Jul 11, 2025 — Crude Oil rose to 66.80 USD/Bbl on July 11, 2025, up 0.34% from the previous day. Over the past month, Crude Oil's price has fallen 1.83%, and is down 18.75% compared to the same time last year"

That's also about 10% less.than it was when Trump resumed office.

Natural gas prices are also.down about 25% from where they were in January, but are about 20% higher than they were this time last year. That's about 1/4 the European price.

Not to mention gas prices are reasonable, except in California, and lower than they were last year at this time.

Oil is tough business, and it wouldn't surprise me if there weren't layoffs while OPEC is trying to expand production.

[hobie]

Yep, oil was getting a little too low for comfort. Don't worry, you'll see the increase in a couple of weeks. Then you guys can engage in that ultra-mature pastime and throw some more Biden 'I Did That!' stickers on the pumps. So far Trump has blamed nearly everything that has gone wrong on his watch on Biden, so you might as well keep pretending as well

[tylertusta]

Blaming the predecessor for any problems that the current President faces is a tale as old as time.

[hobie]

At some point, you government-hating patriots are going to have to put on your big-boy dresses and own your own shit, I'm afraid. Let Biden's authoring of the nonexistent Epstein client list be your last blame

[tylertusta]

At some point, you government-hating patriots are going to have to put on your big-boy dresses and own your own shi

You might want to look in the mirror, bud. Had Democrats done the same with the economy and with immigration during Biden's term, Trump wouldn't have won in November.

[M L]

Elite Economist Admits: Trump’s Deportations Push up Citizens’ Wages

https://www.breitbart.com/economy/2025/07/14/elite-economist-admits-trumps-deportations-push-up-citizens-wages/

President Donald Trump is pushing up wages for millions of Americans by ending the federal welcome for millions of illegal migrants, says a pro-migration economist at a Washington, DC, think-tank.

“We’re going to see stronger wage growth in some occupations, stronger wage growth in the agricultural sector, stronger wage growth for home health workers,” said Wendy Edelberg, a “senior fellow” at the elite-funded Brookings Institution in Washington, DC.

But the loss of deported migrants will have “pretty modest economic effects” on the overall size of the nation’s economy, she told Bloomberg on July 11.

[hobie]

In 2021 the Biden administration sent $10 million to Kerr County for installing a flood warning system, because the county had been requesting a flood warning system for over two decades. The county commissioners and residents rejected the funds, stating at the time:

"“I’m here to ask this court today to send this money back to the Biden administration, which I consider to be the most criminal treasonous communist government ever to hold the White House,” one resident told commissioners in April 2022, fearing strings were attached to the money."

"“We don't want to be bought by the federal government, thank you very much,” another resident told commissioners. “We'd like the federal government to stay out of Kerr County and their money.”"

[tylertusta]

Yes, the residents were distrustful of the Biden administration and didn't want to pay for it themselves.

And it cost them over a hundred lives.