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More on Coercion in Mahmoud
Implications for the Ten Commandments cases
Some quick thoughts occasioned by Josh Blackman's post on coercion in Mahmoud v. Taylor, last Term's parental rights case.
As readers will recall, Mahmoud held that a Maryland school district violated the Free Exercise Clause when it rescinded an opt-out policy that had allowed parents to have their children excused from elementary school lessons featuring LGBTQ+-inclusive storybooks. The Court reasoned that the storybooks, along with classroom discussions that encouraged teachers to reinforce their messages, imposed psychological pressure on students to accept a normative view of sexuality—one that directly conflicted with the religious teachings the parents sought to instill. That pressure, the majority concluded, amounted to a substantial burden on the parents' religious exercise.
In a post yesterday, I noted what seemed like an ideological reversal in the case. In the school prayer context—for example, Kennedy v. Bremerton School District—it's typically progressives who emphasize the dangers of subtle coercion and impressionable students, while conservatives downplay those concerns. In Mahmoud, the roles flipped. The conservative majority focused on the psychological pressure placed on young children by state-endorsed messaging, while the progressive justices appeared less troubled by that dynamic.
So which side is being inconsistent? Perhaps both are simply responding to context. Or perhaps the concept of "coercion" is more manipulable than either side tends to admit.
Josh offers one way to reconcile Mahmoud and Kennedy: by distinguishing between pressure on students' religious beliefs versus their non-religious beliefs. Under this reading, Mahmoud bars the state from pressuring students to abandon religious teachings, but Kennedy permits exposure to religious ideas, even if the state implicitly favors them, so long as there's no coercion into belief.
I wonder if another, simpler distinction might do more work: the age of the students involved. Mahmoud concerned very young children—kindergarten through fifth grade—who are especially vulnerable to subtle cues from teachers. Kennedy, by contrast, involved high school students, who, in theory at least, are better equipped to resist classroom pressure—or have already learned to tune out much of what their teachers say. In other words, the Court might be drawing an implicit line based not just on the nature of the message but on the susceptibility of the audience.
Josh also rightly highlights a doctrinal frontier: the Ten Commandments display cases currently working their way through the lower courts. These raise hard questions for conservatives post-Mahmoud. In Stone v. Graham (1980), the Court struck down a classroom display of the Ten Commandments under the Lemon test. But since Kennedy, Lemon is out, and the Court has instructed lower courts to apply a "history and tradition" framework to Establishment Clause claims.
Even under that revised test, though, the state may not coerce religious belief. And if Mahmoud teaches that distributing LGBTQ+-affirming storybooks to elementary schoolers is too coercive, might a Ten Commandments display in the same setting pose a similar problem?
Courts may try to draw a line between passive and active messaging. One possible distinction appears in the European Court of Human Rights' decision in Lautsi v. Italy (2011), which upheld the display of crucifixes in public school classrooms. The Court reasoned that crucifixes were "passive symbols" and unlikely to indoctrinate students, unlike formal instruction. U.S. courts might adopt a similar distinction here. In Mahmoud, teachers were not just presenting material; they were encouraged to affirm the books' messages and correct students who disagreed. A silent wall display may strike courts as less coercive.
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There’s a simpler distinction, at least on the conservative side. Kennedy was acting in a purely private capacity, and did not in any way represent the school district. Whereas the teachers in Mahmoud were following official, written School Board policy.
The Establishment Clause is only triggered when there’s state action. In Kennedy, there was no state action. In Mahmoud, there was state action. It’s that simple.
I think that's an artificial distinction. He is employed by the school district and acting in the capacity of his employment. Who is a state actor other than the people employed in those roles?
Could a teacher lead a voluntary prayer before the school day by declaring that she is not acting in the role of teacher for the next 3 minutes, but as a private citizen praying and the class may join her?
Should he hold up one hand when he is a state actor and the other when a private citizen?
Before the school day? Yes, I think that would (or at least, should) be upheld as a private act and not an act in a public role. I'd even defend an entirely voluntary prayer held for high-schoolers during a study hall.
Even in the army, you do not give up all your private rights when you accept a public salary. They are diminished, not abrogated.
But I disagree with ReaderY because age still matters to the perception of whether the act is in a private vs public capacity. Adults and high-schoolers have a far more advanced ability to make that distinction than elementary schoolers.
I don't agree with the school prayer cases. But if we are following them, it makes no sense to say that a teacher can't lead the class in prayer but then turn around and say that the teacher can put on a funny hat, declare that she is now a private citizen, lead the class in prayer, and then take off the funny hat and become a teacher again.
Likewise, I don't understand the before/during class distinction. What is constitutional at 7:58 a.m. becomes unconstitutional at 8:00 a.m.?
The distinction to me is that students are compelled to be in class at 8:00 but not compelled to be in the classroom at 7:58.
Class starts at 8. Students need to be in their seats by 7:50 (there's typically an alert bell).
I'd argue very strongly that any time after the alert bell should be prohibited. If I have to be in a seat by 8 am I shouldn't have to walk through a teachers prayer to be on time. All the while getting the teachers side eye and raising the teachers ire.
Under Mahmoud and under the dissent in the school prayer cases, objecting students would not be required to be in class during prayers.
The dissenters in Kennedy certainly thought it was an artificial distinction. But the majority found otherwise. It was why Kennedy won. The whole point of the case according to the majority was that Kennedy’s prayer on the football field was merely a “personal religious observance,” private action and not state action. And absent state action, there is no Establishment Clause claim.
Kennedy stood squarely for the proposition that the presence or absence of state action is determined solely by how lawyers perceive things. The way schoolchildren perceive them is completely irrelevant.
The questions you are asking, and Rossami’s argument, are exactly the sorts of things the dissent said. But they didn’t win.
I realize that. I think it is a bad look. They should attack the school prayer cases frontally instead of trying this end around which is IMHO not very principled or sensible.
I agree with another poster that he does not stop being the football coach because the clock reads 00:00. To hinge the constitutionality of something based on this artificial distinction creates a confused jurisprudence.
Private religious observance right on the 50 yard line, with participation *wink wink nudge nudge* not tied to playing time.
The whole point of the case according to the majority was that Kennedy’s prayer on the football field was merely a “personal religious observance,” private action and not state action. And absent state action, there is no Establishment Clause claim.
A "personal religious observance" that he felt that he had to do in the middle of a football stadium while many of the people that had been there to watch the game would still be there to see it. He was also still the football coach at that time, "on the clock", as a district employee. The duties of a coach end when every player has left the facility, and the coach has also completed any storing of equipment or other after-game clean up that was his responsibility.
The majority in that case bent over backwards like a circus contortionist to see this in the most favorable light for Kennedy.
Also, from Gorsuch's majority opinion,
In its correspondence with Mr. Kennedy, the District never raised coercion concerns. To the contrary, the District conceded in a public 2015 document that there was “no evidence that students [were] directly coerced to pray with Kennedy."
If you take that at face value you might not see any omission of relevant information. The school district said that there was no evidence that students were "directly coerced" to join Kennedy in a public display of piety [emphasis mine]. Did Gorsuch think that we don't know that indirect pressure can matter greatly to teenagers? Clearly, the indirect pressure doesn't have to be applied through Kennedy to be coercive. When enough players (or enough of the best and most popular players) are joining in the prayer, there is substantial peer pressure to join the prayer that Kennedy is modeling.
Kennedy stood squarely for the proposition that the presence or absence of state action is determined solely by how lawyers perceive things. The way schoolchildren perceive them is completely irrelevant.
Yeah, and the perception of judges that have been on a mission to weaken Establishment Clause precedent for decades is even more important in determining the outcome.
The Court did not seem to think it was an artificial distinction in Kennedy:
That being said, it could still be the case that state speech such as Ten Commandments is permissible as not being coercive, and I expect this Court to conclude it is not.
Oh, I agree that this majority on the Court will conclude that a poster that starts with: "I am the Lord thy God...Thou shalt have no other gods before me" is not at all coercive.
Well, yeah, absent some threatened action by a person, posters aren't capable of coercion. They're just ink on paper, typically just sit there on the wall doing absolutely nothing.
If it is just going to sit on a wall and do absolutely nothing, then why have a law requiring it to be there? That is not a credible counterargument. These Republicans passed these laws because they want it to do something. Maybe you're right, though. Maybe it won't have any coercive effect, and those laws are just the Republicans lying to their evangelical base that they are fighting to restore the U.S. as a Christian Nation.
You can inspire or enlighten without coercing, no? So where is your assumption that the poster either coerces or does nothing at all come from?
Even thought I expect this Court to give its blessing, inspiring kids to accept religious teachings (especially one or two sects) should not happen in public schools.
No, I wouldn't argue with that, it would be something of an establishment clause violation. I was just disputing what I think is the silly idea that a Ten Commandments poster on the wall is coercing anyone. EC violations don't require coercion.
Lemon is out as is the endorsement test. What is there that violates the EC while falling short of being coercion?
Because that's what you just said.
They're just ink on paper, typically just sit there on the wall doing absolutely nothing.
Kennedy was acting in a purely private capacity,
No he wasn't. The football coach doesn't stop being the football coach the second the game ends. If he merely wanted to pray in private he could have done so in his office, or even (shudder) wait until he got home.
I agree that he wasn't acting in his private capacity. However, I see no reason why he should have to hide his religious beliefs or wait until he gets home to exercise them.
He was leading students in prayer. Is that OK with you?
...on the 50-yard line, which Gorsuch pretended was private.
He was not "leading" in the compulsory military sense. Students were not required to follow. An invitation is not a demand, which would be necessary to evoke the establishment clause.
Can a teacher lead students in prayer in class if those who don't wish to participate are permitted to leave the room?
I don't know that the kids know when a coach stops being the adult they listen to.
The football coach doesn't stop being the football coach the second the game ends.
True, but irrelevant. Determining the distinction between public and private actions is as simple as considering whether the action was coercive or persuasive. A governmental actor is expressly prohibited from religious coercion by the establishment clause, but every citizen is expressly permitted religious persuasion as his natural right to free speech and free exercise.
Teachers do not abrogate their natural rights when they walk onto school grounds.
Being a teacher (or coach) is a choice. At a public school, that choice includes following the Constitution as a government employee. So yes, the duty not to do anything that would pressure a student regarding one's religious beliefs is higher than one's personal right to publicly act out religious observance.
True, but irrelevant. Determining the distinction between public and private actions is as simple as considering whether the action was coercive or persuasive.
Oh, and no public school employee has a personal right to try and persuade students toward religious observance while on the clock, either. I've known teachers and coaches that sponsored the FCA at the school I taught at, so participation isn't at all forbidden. Leading them in prayer during a club meeting might be different, I'm less clear on that. (I've sponsored clubs before as well, and the real function of a club sponsor was to be the responsible adult in the room, but the club was run and led by the students themselves.)
Public always equals coercive and private always equals persuasive? I don't think so.
I didn't even imply such a distinction.
I don't see any situation where coercion under color of authority is not a public action. "Pray or you won't play," triggers the establishment clause. There is an element of compulsion. I would contend that, "Get over here for a prayer," would cross the line as well. While lacking definitive compulsion, there is also no assurance that there will not be consequences for failure to comply.
However, a coach, even in his capacity as public actor, can perform private actions by disclaiming his authority. Their is no justification to claim that - "I am going to have a prayer at the 50 yard before each game, because it is important to me to show my thankfulness. Anyone who wishes is welcome to join me, but if not, that is OK too." - is an establishment of religion. It is an invitation, not a command. This makes it persuasion and not coercion because lacks the element of compulsion.
They… kinda do. That's why, for instance, a school can tell a trans teacher not to tell students about forms of address or personal pronouns that contradict the teacher's biological sex, even though the teacher would be fully entitled to discuss those things with kids when they bumped into each other in the mall or grocery store.
“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler”
an argument from simplicity is an admission that facts and logic are not your friends
The Establishment Clause is only triggered when there’s state action. In Kennedy, there was no state action. In Mahmoud, there was state action. It’s that simple.
I'm assuming that this is what you were responding to, minus. I agree. If you have to say that something is "simple", then it probably isn't simple, and you're trying to distract from the inadequate reasoning of your point.
Edit: And "simple" issues don't end up at the Supreme Court.
I'm guessing ReaderY is arguing that the 10C cases are not controlled by Kennedy. But yes, that's likely too simple an explanation. If SCOTUS eventually takes one of the cases, they are likely to uphold the practice even though all agree there is state action.
Once again, I see lawyers arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Thomas Jefferson, in his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, spoke of “building a wall of separation between Church & State." I bring that up not as an argument for it against religion in schools but to paraphrase.
To paraphrase, I ask a rhetorical question of why people do not demand a wall of separation between education and state?
In On Liberty, J. S. Mill argued that a government monopoly on education “would be a despotism over the mind,” stifling diversity of thought and turning education into a tool of social control.
State schooling is inherently coercive, prone to indoctrination, and incompatible with a free society.
A true commitment to liberty demands that we treat education not as a tool of the state, but as a natural extension of family, conscience, and community. Just as we reject government control over religion to preserve freedom of belief, so too must we reject state control over education to preserve freedom of thought. The philosophical foundations make clear education flourishes not under compulsion, but through voluntary association, pluralism, and decentralization. A wall of separation between education and state is not a rejection of learning, but a defense of liberty. It is time to entrust the formation of young minds to those with the greatest moral right and personal interest in their flourishing: families, communities, and free individuals—not bureaucracies or ideologues. Only then can education reflect the diversity, creativity, and independence that a free society requires.
Thomas Jefferson supported public education.
https://www.monticello.org/the-art-of-citizenship/the-role-of-education/
He, of all people who distrusted government, should have damned well known better. Nobody's perfect.
Jefferson served many positions in government & wrote that governments are established to secure our rights.
That question is not in dispute. As I said, I am paraphrasing Jefferson and showing the source from which I paraphrased. I never suggested this quote as a support for my assertions.
And, I cited Jefferson on another issue. Just citing one thing he said is somewhat artificial.
I tend to agree with this: separate both church & state and school & state; but the problem I have with the libertarian ideology that I myself endorse is that it's too utopian in principle and doesn't represent the world in which we live.
We are always living in a 2nd best world of "what's the proper libertarian option to push for here, given what's on the table?" Often times, it's nothing. Hence why I'm happy to be a "political atheist" (after René Girard) as well.
And btw, I am a tenured professor at a government college. It's a nice job and I'm happy to have it. If that makes me a hypocrite, IDGAF. Though, if not me, then someone else who is probably not a libertarian would likely have the position; so it's nice to have a bit of representation there.
To paraphrase, I ask a rhetorical question of why people do not demand a wall of separation between education and state?
As an observation, rather than an argument for or against, it is obvious that the government of any nation will use public education to instill the citizenry with beliefs and values that align with that government's goals, by instilling them in the youth.
And this doesn't have to be nefarious. Like I said, it is an observation.
I am cheating here and copying from an article that better expresses the answer than I:
>The view that primary education should be available to all through a public system has been made inseparable from the concept of a republican society over the years. Pierce (1964, pp. 3–4) provides a historical demonstration:
>>”Herein originated a new concern for education expressed by Thomas Jefferson in his belief that people could not govern themselves successfully unless they were educated…. This concept has gone through several stages of evolution — from Jefferson’s idea that if people were to vote intelligently they must be educated as a means of survival in a world of competing ideologies.”
>This view of education as catalyst for successful democratic government has metamorphosed through the passing of time into a view of education as a veritable necessary condition of freedom. For this expansion to occur, the meaning of freedom had to be modified. As Graham (1963, pp. 45–46) states, people might mistakenly, “interpret freedom in terms of their right to criticize and to choose their masters — the men for whom they work, the politicians who direct their public affairs, the newspapers, books, speeches, and television programs that influence their thinking.” But a more correct definition, “for a democratic society would recognize the need for authority in any social group and equate freedom with the right to participate in power” (Graham, 1963, pp. 45–46). To participate in the power (i.e., the representative nature of American government) citizens must have information, ergo to educate is a legitimate function of the state.
>This view of freedom is questionable though. Consider the view of liberty espoused by John Locke, one of, if not the, major philosophical influences of the American Revolution.
>>”The Freedom then of Man and Liberty of acting according to his own Will, is grounded on his having Reason, which is able to instruct him in the Law he is to govern himself by, and make him Know how far he is left to the freedom of his own will (Locke, 1978, p. 3).”
>Freedom is based primarily upon man’s reason according to Locke. Because he possesses reason, man has the faculties and duty to rule himself. This Lockean concept of freedom was spread through early America in Cato’s Letters (Rothbard, 1978, p. 4). This concept of freedom was also that of John Stuart Mill, who wrote later on in the 19th century: “…the same reasons which show that opinions should be free, prove also that [an individual] should be allowed, without molestation, to carry his opinions into practice at his own cost” (Mill, 1956, p. 23).
>Furthermore, while a cultivated citizenry might be more capable of exercising its influence in a republican government, there is something perverse in the state itself educating the citizenry on how to operate the state.
>As Lieberman (1989, p. 11) notes:
>>”Simply stated, public choice theory asserts that the behavior of politicians and bureaucrats can be explained by the same principals that govern behavior in private economic affairs. In the latter, persons generally act so as to enhance their self interest…. [Public officials] act either to get reelected or to enhance their pay, perquisites, and status. If the purpose of providing public schooling is to create an informed citizenry capable of choosing those individuals who run the nation, then surely the power to determine what is taught and how should not be rested in the hands of the governing individuals.”
>As Boaz (1991, p. 19) observes: “Even in basic academic subjects there is a danger in having only one approach taught in all of the schools.” The state-monopolistic nature of a public school system fosters undesirable conformity of curricula. Williams (1978) correctly describes a public educational system as one which, “requires a collective decision on many attributes of [education],” and that education is offered to all, “whether or not [a parent] agrees with all the attributes or not.” The individuals entrenched in positions of power in the state are those with control over what children are taught concerning history, government, economics, and so forth.
>The result is a citizenry educated by operators of the state on how to choose the operators of the state!
>Of course, those government agents who plan and direct the curricula are most likely well-intentioned people,8 but, as Ludwig von Mises (1952, p. 47) correctly notes: “No planner is ever shrewd enough to consider the possibility that the plan which the government will put into practice could differ from his own plan.” In other words, no matter how much such a person sincerely plans in the interests of others, ultimately the plans are still his own.
>Furthermore, it should be realized that, for all the talk about the noble ideals of Thomas Jefferson, the foundation of America’s government by the people, and the preservation of citizens’ “freedom,” the realization of public primary education in the United States was ushered in with quite ignoble motives. “[O]ne of the major motivations of the legion of mid nineteenth-century American “educational reformers” who established the modern public school system was precisely to use it to cripple the cultural and linguistic life of the waves of immigrants into America, and to mould them, as educational reformer Samuel Lewis stated, into “one people” (Rothbard, 1978, p. 125). Particular targets of the American educational reformation were the Germans and the Irish. Monroe (1940, p. 224) articulates, with disarming benignity, the attitude towards these waves of immigrants and the cultures which they brought to America:
>>”More than a million and a half Irish and a similar number of Germans were added to the population. Great numbers of English and Welsh had also come, but the two former nationalities were sufficiently concentrated in location to cause their different racial temperaments and social customs to become new factors in our political, social, and economic life…. [These] elements as a whole made the educational problem more distinct, and by accentuating the tests to which our political and social structure must be subjected directed the attention of the native population to the significance of education.”
>Notice how the English and Welsh, with cultures more compatible with predominant American beliefs, are mentioned only in passing, while the more exotic Irish and Germans are elements to which “our political and social structure must be subjected,” creating an “educational problem.”
Further, the individual liberties that America granted to its citizens and “led men to object to all form of governmental restraint caused such excesses that the success of self government was seriously questioned. Much of the responsibility for this condition approaching anarchy was popularly attributed to the untrained and unbridled foreign element…” (Monroe, 1940, pp. 223–224). Immigrant culture was seen as a cancer on the United States society, incompatible with American liberty. Paradoxically, the solution which would allow immigrants to enjoy liberty was to deny them freedom of education and instead force them to pay for public schools whether or not they wanted to attend.
A study of problems with the existing school system by the Secretary of the Connecticut School Board in 1846 noted numerous defects: “The tenth defect was the existence of numerous private schools” (Monroe, 1940, p. 244). The existence of private schools was seen as especially troublesome with regards to the Irish Catholics. As Rothbard (1978, p. 125) writes: “It was the desire of the Anglo-Saxon majority to … smash the parochial school system of the Catholics.” Taxing indiscriminately for education, thus forcing those individuals who would opt for private education to pay twice (once in taxes, and again in tuition to the private school), was one method for discouraging private education. Even more blunt was the attempt in Oregon during 1920s to outlaw private schools (Rothbard, 1978, p. 126). A law was passed making private primary education illegal and compelling all children to attend public schools. Fortunately, in Pierce v. Society of Sisters (1925), the Supreme Court found the law to be unconstitutional.
>If an educated citizenry is to be considered necessary for the operation of the republican government, then it is an inexcusable conflict of interest when elected officials are the ones in charge of providing that education.
Excerpted from: Enterprising Education: Doing Away with the Public School System by Andrew Young and Walter Block in International Journal of Value-Based Management 12: 195-207, 1999.
”Simply stated, public choice theory asserts that the behavior of politicians and bureaucrats can be explained by the same principals that govern behavior in private economic affairs. In the latter, persons generally act so as to enhance their self interest…
Yeah, how valid is this?
[Public officials] act either to get reelected or to enhance their pay, perquisites, and status.
The whole concept behind representative government is to have government officials that represent the people, rather than their own interests. This theory seems to be saying that the republican form of government is built on a paradox.
No, you're just failing to understand HOW representative government works.
It doesn't rely on representatives magically wanting to, by virtue of the positions they hold, represent the people. If that were how it worked, you wouldn't need regular elections!
Rather, it relies on the representatives wanting to keep those juicy positions, and representing the people so that they keep getting reelected being the easiest way to keep the job.
The problem is that this is an imperfect constraint on legislator behavior. And it is in the interest of the legislators to make that constraint as imperfect as they can, so that they can more directly serve their own interests, instead of having to serve the people in order to serve their own interest in continued employment.
Which is why letting legislators regulate how people campaign to displace them is such a horrible idea... Any time they can legislate to make themselves more secure in their jobs against the voters, they will.
Excerpted from: Enterprising Education: Doing Away with the Public School System
You've quoted some valid points. Particularly when they describe the history of the cultural conflicts over the different waves of immigration and the religious divide they exacerbated.
As Boaz (1991, p. 19) observes: “Even in basic academic subjects there is a danger in having only one approach taught in all of the schools.” The state-monopolistic nature of a public school system fosters undesirable conformity of curricula.
Education in the U.S., even without the massive expansion of school choice programs in some red states, is highly decentralized. There are 50+1 "state-monoplistic" systems here. And even within states there is not as much uniformity in the curricula as they might think. The state standards that are used to build the standardized tests each state gives to its public school students are not curriculum. There is still a lot of freedom for each school district to choose how to meet those standards. Each district has its own elected school board, and so it should be responsive to what the voters in that district want taught.
There are huge contradictions in how some state government Republicans are governing public education. They say that they want to give parents more choice and control over their children's education, while being more and more rigid about what local public schools can and can't do. And all of the "accountability" that they've aimed at traditional public schools never applies to the private schools that get taxpayer money from vouchers.
I think that they have a goal that matches the title of the article you quoted: Enterprising Education: Doing Away with the Public School System by Andrew Young and Walter Block in International Journal of Value-Based Management If I was cynical, I'd think that their plan is to make public education in their state so convoluted, dysfunctional, and full of contradictions that voters give up and support fully privatizing the whole thing.
Originally, Jefferson's wall of separation between church and state contained government, and protected the Church.
Later, as government started expanding into areas that had formerly been the province of religion, the function of that wall was inverted, to protect government from religion, and contain religion in an ever shrinking area.
And separation of education and state was a common libertarian slogan when I first joined the LP. Still is: From the LP Platform:
"We advocate the complete separation of education and State. Government schools lead to the indoctrination of children and interfere with the free choice of individuals. Government ownership, operation, regulation, and subsidy of schools and colleges should be ended. We call for the repeal of the guarantees of tax-funded, government-provided education, which are found in most state constitutions. "
Oh my , a lttle learning ..."drink deeply or not at all' says the poem
2 errors of fact
1)
The strongest challenge to the Court’s reliance on Jefferson’s metaphor to interpret the establishment clause came from then-associate justice William H. Rehnquist in his dissent in Wallace v. Jaffree (1985).
The Court’s majority found an Alabama statute that provided for public schools to observe a minute at the start of each day “for meditation or voluntary prayer” violated the establishment clause. The statute originally had mentioned only meditation, but had been amended to add the words “or voluntary prayer.”
Justice Rehnquist attacked the Court’s reliance on Jefferson’s understanding of the religion clauses, saying,“ There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the Framers intended to build the ‘wall of separation’ that was constitutionalized in Everson [v. Board of Education].” Rehnquist added that the Court’s establishment clause jurisprudence “has been expressly freighted with Jefferson’s misleading metaphor for nearly 40 years.”
2) Our organic documents contradict you
Article 3 of the the Northwest Ordinance of 1787:
Religion, morality and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.
And yet, justices who believe that students SHOULD be indoctrinated with pro-LGBQT ideas will vote to allow just that.
And when it comes time to rule on allowing passive Christian ideas, they will vote to disallow that.
Not sure we could imagine the conservatives voting that any actual Christian indoctrination is allowable.
The situation isn't symmetric.
Why does the state teach anything that isn't fact based? Teach reading, writing, math, geography, hard science, historical dates and historical records. Philosophy, psychology and social studies as electives only. Teaching beliefs and assumptions is religious whether it is Martin Luther, Marx, or Freud.
"indoctrination' is itself a pre-legal ruling as it's a term of connotation, not DENOTATION. YOu could call algebra indoctrination.
Christianity (or in clearer terms the natural religion of the Bible) is our founding religion. Slavery and bigamy only died because of the Biblical basis of our founding.
Justice Reynolds on the Mormon bigamy case
Suppose one believed that human sacrifices were a necessary part of religious worship, would it be seriously contended that the civil government under which he lived could not interfere to prevent a sacrifice? Or if a wife religiously believed it was her duty to burn herself upon the funeral pile of her dead husband, would it be beyond the power of the civil government to prevent her carrying her belief into practice?
So here, as a law of the organization of society under the exclusive dominion of the United States, it is provided that plural marriages shall not be allowed. Can a man excuse his practices to the contrary because of his religious belief? To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself. Government could exist only in name under such circumstances. . . .
I find it hard to take a claim seriously that the mere posting of the Ten Commandments on the wall is an affront to someone's religious beliefs as the teachings in Mahmoud.
There might be a superficial gotcha there, but not a serious one. The TC is a foundational legal and historical document which contains mostly religion neutral teachings like don't kill or steal. To the extent that it doesn't (no other Gods, no graven images) it is not posted in a proselytizing manner to demand that kids worship the Judeo-Christian God.
Are teachers really going to point to the document to demand that kids stop making graven images?
mostly religion neutral teaching
Thirty or forty percent (depending on the version) directly involve rules about God. That already doesn't quite seem like "mostly."
The commandment about parents originally referenced God, though it is often edited out (“Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.").
The whole thing are "commandments" set forth by God.
not posted in a proselytizing manner to demand that kids worship the Judeo-Christian God.
The recent Texas law, for instance, required this particular religious document to be "conspicuously placed" in each classroom.
School children as young as five years old will see commandments about properly worshiping a specific deity. Quoting from a Judeo-Christian scripture. Legislators regularly provide evangelical reasons for such laws.
The government is directly endorsing sectarian religious doctrine, editing holy scripture that different faiths disagree upon. It is not merely teaching something that religious faiths disagree with. This involves something people think was handed down by God.
But logic stops you. Reason since the Greeks of 300 BC (actually earlier) establishes by reason that there is a God. If you say reason does not, then show it, And if you don't then you are actually arguing your 'faith' !!!!
You see it in every way except as the founding prinicples of our country, why is that.
The Ten Commandments does not just provide "nature's god" to the extent that is possibly reasonable. You skipped over so much of what I said to address a narrow thing. Why is that?
Why is it being posted?
There’s a reason the State of Texas isn’t requiring the posting of the Four Noble Truths in a conspicuous place.
Yes, because hardly anyone in Texas cares about that stuff.
Right. Which indicates that the 10 commandments requirement isn't simply about historical interest.
The 10C has 100 times more historical interest in Texas than the 4 Notables or whatever you said.
But that is illogical too, It is about historical interest, if it isn't simply about that, IT IS STILL ABOUT HISTORICAL INTEREST -- that is logic
You might be wrong and I say it is because you are an uninformed jerk. But whether you are an uninformed jerk or not is separate from "you are wrong" 🙂
It varies slightly depending on which version one uses (yes, different religions have different versions), but under most versions, 4 of them are purely religious, not secular.
IT contains natural law and the secular/religous distinction was utterly NA in the ancient world. Only law brings it in. You say that the mention of God makes it religious but virtually all the Founders disagreed
"[T]hat the opinions of men are not the object of civil government, nor under its jurisdiction; that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty." —Thomas Jefferson, 1779.
"While we are contending for our own liberty, we should be very cautious not to violate the conscience of others, ever considering that God alone is the judge of the hearts of men, and to Him only in this case are they answerable." —George Washington, in a letter to Benedict Arnold.
Surely, you would not say that to George !!!
Luv it when 10C defenders seem to have little idea of what's in the 10C
Let me point out something about you that I've been wanting to do for months. You call religion what was NEVER called religion in the mainstream of western civilization
The existence of God and other like truths about God, which can be known by natural reason, are not articles of faith, but are preambles to the articles; for faith presupposes natural knowledge, even as grace presupposes nature, and perfection supposes something that can be perfected. Nevertheless, there is nothing to prevent a man, who cannot grasp a proof, accepting, as a matter of faith, something which in itself is capable of being scientifically known and demonstrated.
Summa theologiae Ia, q. 2, a. 2, ad 1.
Nobody at Mount Sinai said "Oh, you're kidding, you aren't supposed to murder or lust after your neighbors wife or steal from him ...wow, what a shocker" the 10 C were seen all through history as adding ONLY DIVINE SANCTION to what was knowable and known already
The majority did not just rest on the age of the child & it is unclear how young is too young. Do we think that parents of sixth graders, for instance, won't raise comparable claims?
Also, these things are applied somewhat inconsistently. Consider Good News Club v. Milford Central School. Some people argued that religious instruction in public schools right after the bell would more likely confuse young children than teenagers.
Teenagers were mature enough to understand that a religious club was not endorsed by the school. A six-year-old would not understand that. It was more likely an endorsement of religion problem.
The majority in Good News did not accept the age of the elementary children allowed the school to treat things differently.
The argument that "passive" displays are different has some backing in case law. I don't think that is a good ground to allow the posting of the Ten Commandments in public school classrooms.
But Alito and company might not agree.
I think the better analogy would be Mahmoud with the facts changed where say the female teacher had a picture of her wedding to another woman on her desk. No commentary, just the picture.
If a parent objected on religious grounds, at least I would argue that the picture is far too attenuated to be considered an assault on religious beliefs or otherwise "indoctrination."
I view the TC in the same way.
This doesn't seem to address the core of my concern about how selective and arbitrary "age specific" rules are.
You are talking about the breadth of the burden generally speaking. Stone v. Graham doesn't allow TCs in high school classrooms or something, for instance.
Teachers also regularly talk about their spouses and families. A student might ask what the picture is. They in some positive fashion speak about the picture in a way typically done.
Others listen. They talk about their parents, including some student who has two daddies. Some classmate makes a rude remark. The teacher says, "that isn't nice." Not an "assault" either.
I can agree with all of that.
Well, except for Stone v. Graham. That case was decided based on Lemon. It's foundation is one of sand and it has no continuing validity.
Striking down TC laws like the recent one in Texas that selectively favor one specific religous message in a school classroom need not rely on Lemon. A lower court did so even after SCOTUS said that case was overruled.
Can you supply a link to the ruling. I'd like to see how they did so.
https://religionclause.blogspot.com/2025/06/5th-circuit-upholds-preliminary.html
Thanks. Other than saying Stone is still good law (*), the ruling held (in the alternative assuming Stone is overruled) the lower court did not commit an error in concluding the facts support the conclusion that "the permanent posting of the Ten Commandments in public school classrooms [does not ] fit within, or is consistent with, a broader tradition of using the Ten Commandments in public education." I have no idea how that analysis will play out if SCOTUS takes the case.
(*) I agree since it is on all fours, Stone remains good law. But, the writing is on the wall for SCOTUS to overrule Stone if they are not persuaded by the argument there is a lack of history and tradition in support of 10C displays in public schools.
Kavanaugh in American Legion (peace cross) made "religious expression in public schools" a separate category.
Kennedy purports to be about private expression.
I would not be surprised if they overruled Stone v. Graham, but as the 5CA decision notes, it has been differentiated from off-school grounds monuments.
Kennedy overruled Lemon even though it did not need to once it found there was no state actor.
But that would not fly with anoyone in the Founding generatoni. Homosexual perversion , however advertized, was just that.
" Founders at the state and national level shaped marriage law to reflect five vital components of marital unity: the equality and complementarity of the sexes, consent and permanence in marriage, exclusivity in marriage, marital love, and a union oriented toward procreation and childrearing."
Regardless of the subject, if so many parents object to the curriculum that the school district claims it cannot provide space for all those students to opt out, perhaps that particular class should not be taught.
Which should lead naturally to "Who decided it should be taught?" because with everyone opting out proof exists that they are not fit for the job.
Anyway, as a parent I get down to right-in-your-face FACTS: kids cannot read, their math is sht, and the write what looks like kidnapper notes.
Can you imagine someone saying "The surgeon killed the partient, didn't know basic medicine, but he sure was a nice friendly helpful guy"
Posting Pride flags is much more offensive than the Ten Commandments. A TC poster is mostly of historical interests, and none of the major religions object to it. But Pride flags comes with woke messages and indoctrination. Teachers very much push pro-LGBTQ messages, as early as kindergarten. These messages are contrary to the teachings of most of the major religions.
A message like "gay people exist?"
The intended messages of Pride flag is not just that gay people exist. Look at what the advocates say.
Accept us for who we are and treat us with the dignity and respect that all humans deserve?
No, the schools should not be teaching such propaganda.
It's propaganda to teach people that humans are deserving of respect?
Apparently you want to force kindergarten children to accept and endorse putting your penis into another man's anus. Yes, that is propaganda. And completely inappropriate for the schools.
That flag apparently triggers some interesting visuals in your brain that mine does not conjure.
Just look up what the flag means, according to those who promote. Then check out the Progressive Pride flag, as it is even worse.
I want them to accept the inherent dignity of all humans even when weirdos like you want to denigrate and punish for weird reasons like you just said.
If the message were that they exist, they'd be "Exist flags".
Necrophiliacs exist and arsonists exist too.
See, it isn't a message , it's a fact and facts don't need any kind of teaching to kids.
If they can't read or write or do math, why are you crowing about someone telling them there are perverts in the world . I honestly don't get your priorities .
It seems a little silly to imagine that other religions would not object to "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other gods before me", which seems like it would be a problem for religions that, you know, don't think that.
But that is a logic problem. It isn't by your own admission ! that there is a God , it is Who is that God. What reason can tell you and what revelation adds are two different things. We both see the lady on the hill , I think it's Mom and you think it's Mindy But we agree that there is a lady on the hill.
My confirmation essay back in the 70's was an analysis of the classic logical proofs of the existence of God, explaining how each of them embodied a different logical fallacy. The pastor complemented me on an excellent essay, too.
Whether one is more offensive than then the other has no relevance to the legal question.
"In Mahmoud, teachers were not just presenting material; they were encouraged to affirm the books' messages and correct students who disagreed."
If the only sources for this assertion are Blackman, the Supreme Court justices in the majority and the usual nutjob amici, I'm highly skeptical of this sentence.
Maybe just read the Supreme court ruling, then?
Page 4: "And the Board has specifically encouraged teachers to reinforce this viewpoint and to reprimand any children who disagree."
The opinion documents how teachers were instructed to teach particular viewpoints on these topics, and enforce agreement.
That's exactly what ScottK said. That quote is the opinion of the majority, not an independently verified fact. The opinion does not "document" that assertion unless it is buried in a footnote somewhere.
Look at the arguments from the school district, for why they would not let anyone opt out. The school very much argued that all students must be fully indoctrinated.
Wasn't there another distinction between the two cases? In Kennedy, the kid didn't need to stick around and listen to the prayer. They could wander off to the bus, locker room, to flirt with another student or do whatever the preferred. That is: not only could they "opt out" no one was encouraging them to stay.
Heck, for that matter, if a group of parents and their kids wanted to surround the coach waving plaquards that said "God does not exist", they could do that. If a coach of a different faith wants to start a separate prayer group to meet near Kennedy's prayer, he can do that too. Kennedy didn't win the right to force anyone to pay attention to his prayer nor even to be left alone while he prays.
In Mahmoud, the kids couldn't leave the room. They were going to be encouraged to interact during the lesson. They probably would have been chastised for failure to participate in the "reading comprehension" exercises which required discussing the characters, and possibly their feelings and choices. The school and teachers were asking for something Kennedy did not ask for: They want students to engage with these materials as "lessons"-- and that almost certainly include exhibiting the sort of attentive behavior you expect of students.
The only thing the parents in Mahmoud won was the right to have their children opt out from this. They didn't win the right to prevent the teachers or school from using these materials. Using the materials will be more complicated for the school, but they can use them.
They didn't even win that much as a final matter, they just got a preliminary injunction allowing them that much while waiting for the lower court that had already ruled against them when they asked for an injunction to issue a decision on the merits.
So it's entirely possible that the lower court will fail to take the hint, and rule against them, dissolving even the preliminary injunction. And they'll be back again.
The Court IS fond of forcing people to waste their time with redundant legal battles that way.
How about a compromise? They display, next to the 10 Commandments, Alinsky's 13 Rules for Radicals. Maybe leftists will have to pick the top 10 of those 13 for proper balance.
Saul was Jewish and wanted to be a rabbi at one point in life.
Try again.
The concern about posting the Ten Commandments conspicuously in public school classrooms made me wonder.
When that is required, how many of the jurisdictions also require the Constitution to be posted in school classrooms?
The Court reasoned that crucifixes were "passive symbols" and unlikely to indoctrinate students, unlike formal instruction.
I was looking at Steven H. Shiffrin's discussion of that case, which is included in What's Wrong with the First Amendment? (interesting book, though I disagree with chunks of it).
That opinion sounds like it leaves a lot to be desired. A crucifix, to remind, is not the same as a cross. It is even more blatantly sectarian. West Virginia v. Barnette reminds us about the power of symbols. A flag "teaches" by its mere presence.
The "passive" nature of symbols is belied by the amount of energy provided by those who want them to be present.
Is the six pointed star with interlaced equilateral triangles also blatantly sectarian?
A crucifix is a sectarian Catholic symbol.
It has a representation of the suffering Christ. It is not just a cross (which is still generally Christian). It is particularly a Catholic symbol. Posting it in class sends a sectarian message.
The Ten Commandments with text involve choosing particular versions (or making up a new one) of something that sects disagree over. Jews, Christians, and others who in some fashion honor the TC still disagree over such particulars.
Your question about the hexagram is duly noted. Checking, Wikipedia quotes this:
"It is not to be found at all in medieval synagogues or on medieval ceremonial objects, although it has been found in quite a number of medieval Christian churches again, not as a Christian symbol but only as a decorative motif. The appearance of the symbol in Christian churches long before its appearance in our synagogues should warn the overzealous interpreters."
Such a star can, in various contexts, represent Jews. I am not aware of it being "blatantly sectarian" to the degree the crucifix is, since it seems to represent Jews overall, not one particular sect.
The star can also represent Jews overall as a group, not a specific central act of the Jewish religion, as the crucifix does. The fact that it represents Jews does make it something to use carefully.
For instance, using it as a generic marker on a grave could be problematic since the person might not be Jewish.