The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Supreme Court, Martians, Justice Jackson, and Chief Justice Roberts
Justice Jackson's dissent in the universal injunction case (CASA, Inc. v. Trump) includes this line:
A Martian arriving here from another planet would see these circumstances and surely wonder: "what good is the Constitution, then?" What, really, is this system for protecting people's rights if it amounts to this—placing the onus on the victims to invoke the law's protection, and rendering the very institution that has the singular function of ensuring compliance with the Constitution powerless to prevent the Government from violating it? "Those things Americans call constitutional rights seem hardly worth the paper they are written on!"
Some people have suggested there's something strange or inappropriate about bringing Martians into it, but it seems a pretty familiar locution. Here, for instance, is Chief Justice Roberts from Riley v. California (2014), which labels it familiar enough to be "proverbial":
These cases require us to decide how the search incident to arrest doctrine applies to modern cell phones, which are now such a pervasive and insistent part of daily life that the proverbial visitor from Mars might conclude they were an important feature of human anatomy.
Justice Thomas used a similar phrase in Foster v. Chatman (2016) and Justice O'Connor in Engle v. Isaac (1982), both quoting Judge Henry Friendly, Is Innocence Irrelevant? Collateral Attack on Criminal Judgments, 38 U. Chi. L. Rev. 142, 145 (1970):
The proverbial man from Mars would surely think we must consider our system of criminal justice terribly bad if we are willing to tolerate such efforts at undoing judgments of conviction.
The "proverbial man from Mars" refers to someone who looks at things afresh, without focusing on the social conventions or legal frameworks that (the speaker suggests) might blind us to what's actually going on. You can agree or disagree with Justice Jackson's substantive argument about universal injunctions, but judges and Justices have been using the Martian thought experiment for generations.
(The pedant in me does agree, though, that "Martian arriving here from another planet" is redundant, in a way that "proverbial visitor from Mars" is not. But that really is pedantry.)
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But at least Roberts had the Martian coming here from Mars.
Jackson's Martian is "arriving here from another planet".
Maybe Jackson's planet.
this is what passes for discourse here, huh?
I was on a carrier which lost a plane. The helo sent to bring back the bodies also crashed. We ended up with six bodies in the meat reefer. You shoulda heard the jokes.
"I musta got a chief, this is so tough."
"Probably a jarhead wearing his leather collar."
"It's not mytsery meat any more."
"Dark humor is like food," says Stalin on my t-shirt. "Not everybody gets it."
CPO meat isn't tough, it's tender and full of fat from sitting in the CPO mess all day drinking coffee, snacking, and surfing ESPN on the one computer the whole division has to share and where there's never time for the E4 and below to check their own official email and do their required training;)
Also, which carrier? Saratoga in the early 1990's.
Nice of you to notice, I do what I can.
Perhaps the Martian had come here straight from visiting the cold springs of Neptune.
Is mars not another planet?
Could these fictive martians of hers no have extra planetary colonies? Maybe she has a whole fictional universe describing the history of these martians;)
Seriously though, there's a lot of things to criticize her for - this analogy is not one of them.
"Is mars not another planet?"
Yes it is, which is why 'Martian arriving from another planet' is redundant unless they are arriving from a planet that is neither earth nor Mars.
Which they could be.
Just because it's redundant doesn't mean it's wrong.
IT does though because it sets up a comparison with 'martian not from another planet" --- and we both know that is not what was meant
I'm betting that the draft originally said "an alien from another planet," but she realized the word "alien" had a second meaning that could give rise a some awkwardness, given the circumstances of the case.
The phrase, "Martian arriving here from another planet," is odd, as, if there actually were any "Martians", they would presumably be arriving from one particular planet - Mars. One wonders if perhaps the original phrase was "alien... from another planet", but some woke staffer caught it and said, "You shouldn't say alien, especially in this case."
I'm just sad the CNTL-F didn't give us "undocumented workers form another planet".
Try again without the typo.
freud in the keys
Jung in the sack.
The Martians could have had a connecting flight from another planet, or they could have been Martians that immigrated to another planet and left Mars long ago.
NO, Jackson does not know what a woman is, remember but she was told that "Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus"
So to stay gender uncontroversial and to avoid the intense fighto over how to refer to someone from Venus*, she went with Mars
* "Venusian" has become more commonly used, while "Cytherean" was once much more common
Justice Jackson is clearly referencing the Ice Warriors from Doctor Who. In their first appearance, they are clearly identified as Martian, adapted to the colder climate of the more distant planet, but later in the series are from some extrasolar planet, and in other episodes set on Mars they are never present.
As others have said, "Martian arriving here from another planet" is not redundant. It may have traveled to Venus, found its system similar enough to Mars to evoke no surprises, and then come to Earth and been appalled at the differences.
But even if that were (subjunctive) true , you can't use a simile in a sense that no one would get.
So far all the posts have been so far out in the weeds I am amazed. More and more Jackson's nomination seems to be a mistake. I seem to remember there was some Indian guy who was sharp as a tack and much more of a heavy weight who was not considered even thought his was not only ideologically equivalent or better than Jackson but a far better legal mind. Does anyone really think Jackson has any ability to punch above her weight class?
DEI is never a mistake.
Re-education camp for you!
"Martian arriving here from another planet"
Martians might be here already. See, e.g., a 1960s sitcom.
Exigius 12½ was only one Martian, although I seem to remember he is visited by a nephew in one episode.
But a "Martian from another planet" implies that its a migrant Martian who resides in some place other than Mars, e.g., Venus, Neptune. If not, why say "from another planet," since Martian by itself implies "a being from Mars"?
Maybe she grew up watching My Favorite Martian in syndication? Except that doesn't work with the rest of her metaphor about them just arriving.
The title character was known as Uncle Martin. With the first name of Martin, Marty Martian perhaps inevitably turned out to be my grade school nickname for a couple years.
I thought your first name was Purple.
...as in people eater?
Is it a purple (people eater) or a (purple people) eater?
Perhaps Purple Martin is on the menu rather than being the diner.
Nothing wrong with using the Martian metaphor. The problem with her dissent was her pretending that the dire threat of the underlying merits the Martians might observe justified judicial overreach by district courts. But the Martians wouldn't understand why there can't be a universal injunction! Of course they wouldn't, since the Martians know nothing about US constitutional law, having just arrived on the planet.
Though it seems likely Jubal Harshaw had thoughts on "what good is the Constitution, then?"...I somehow can't recall that chapter of Stranger in a Strange Land.
“(The pedant in me does agree, though, that ‘Martian arriving here from another planet" is redundant, in a way that "proverbial visitor from Mars’ is not. But that really is pedantry.)”
Bryan Garner would likely not be this dismissive of such pedantry. And for academics and justices whose careers depend on persuasive writing, being dismissive of pedantry in such writing seems odd.
We are dealing with courts here; why do you assume "Martian" means someone from Mars?
May be he/she/they/them/those are from Venus but identify as Martian.
Since women are from Venus and Men are from Mars, I guess that makes them trans-planetary. Or something.
She can't write and that is why the use of the Martian and "wait for it" ...as a teacher in college for 10 years, the less a writer knows, the lazier the writer is, the less a writer thinks , the more they use such literary diversions. Because they both say nothing. Wait for it is a baiting technique, I dare you to call a judge, a Black and a woman, stupid. It took another woman to see through her, Amy
What, really, is this system for protecting people's rights if it amounts to this—placing the onus on the victims to invoke the law's protection, and rendering the very institution that has the singular function of ensuring compliance with the Constitution powerless to prevent the Government from violating it?
Since the majority opinion permits injunctive relief for plaintiffs who "invoke the law's protection," this statement is disingenuous. What the majority held is that a court cannot grant injunctive relief for others who have not invoked the law's protection.
Um, what? She's acknowledging and criticizing that as insufficient.
Read it again. She is saying courts are "powerless." No, they aren't. They can issue injunctions for the parties before them.
Even a Martian can see that's clearly insufficient to require a plaintiff to plead his own case?
In addition, that's what we do in every other aspect of life---require a person who is aggrieved by some process to come forward and file a complaint.
If there were Martians on Mars, there could be Martians born and raised here on Earth, and the Earth-born Martians might not be the kind of objective observers that Justice Jackson wants to refer to.
Of course, by the same reasoning, she might as well have said "Earthlings arriving here from another planet". Imagine the responses to *that*.
"Earthling" is pejorative; the politically correct term is "Terran".
What if they are from Mars but identify as Earthlings?
How many genders do Martians have?
This brings up gender in Latin and Greek and the somewhat arbitrary botanical and biological assignations of male and female to plants and such.
Apparently, in the modern day, if you live in a place you are from that place - see: 'Maryland Man' Abrego.
Ah. Another case of a liberal respecting history and tradition.
The whole purpose of a right is that you have it automatically and it is respected. If the government can violate our "rights" at will and the only recourse is to sue individually, then those are no longer rights.
A Martian visiting would take one look at us an take the next transwarp corridor out of here.
No, we are endowed by our Creator with unalienable rights. Nothing automatic at all.
The genie has been let out of the bottle, as the saying goes. Americas now agree collectively that Justice Jackson is an idiot, a miscarriage of justice, an autopen gone rogue.
Judge J. Michelle Childs of United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit was the smart choice for SCOTUS. Yet for reasons we will never know, Doktur Jill, while engaging in elder abuse of JRB, picked the microcephaly Jackson. We will now have to resort to the many wonderful memes on "Im not a biologist" Jackson to deal with the shame. Kudos to Justice ACB for the bench slap
ACB did what the Chief Justice quakes to do, call it like it is.
Everyone is missing the second half of the plan. SCOTUS will never hear the birthright citizenship case on the merits. Parents will sue and win, but the administration will not appeal. The parents cant appeal since there is no longer a controversy for Article III standing,
The courts do not have the capacity to hear every birthright citizenship case nor will most parents have the money to take legal action. Yes, some parents will win citizenship, but that is a small price to pay for the many who will not.
So you mean all the legal experts against this are too incompetent to go about the work of getting a class certified? I had no idea they were such terrible lawyers.
I am relieved you uncovered this nefarious plan.
Except it's very unlikely that those opposed won't go around to many of the other districts and win the same way. Or maybe they should sue in a Trump friendly district just to lose? Even better, a not Trump friendly district and engineer an outcome like Griswold v Connecticut.
SCOTUS won't let them do class actions. I don't know what their exact legal reasoning will be.
Can you tell me what team will win the World Series this year? I'd like to place a sure bet. That's only if your tin foil hat doesn't interfere with you seeing the future.
Nationwide injunctions via class action is not much different then what they struck down. SCOTUS would not have taken the effort to come up with a complete BS opinion if they were going to allow class actions to the dame thing.
"not much different" means "different"
Class actions have rigorous requirements set out in Rule 23 and the case law. You want to represent everyone in the same position as you, you have to meet those requirements.
THis is the patois we call "Molly-ese"
(I'm going to pretend what the law actually says doesn't matter so I can criticize and ridicule people I don't like.)
MaddogEngineer — There is not a sufficient supply of lawyers in the nation to restore via class actions birthright citizenship to the status of a right. Not only would such cases have to be brought everywhere, they would have to be brought again and again. There will always be a supply of newly-born birthright plaintiffs who were not party to previous cases.
Governments resistant to birthright citizenship would shortly adopt a tactic to hire a lawyer or two from every especially capable local law firm, to defend as outside counsel against such class actions. Every law partner and associate in all those firms would then be disqualified by conflict of interest to represent birthright plaintiffs.
A procedure which leaves only a small percentage of actual birthright citizens with un-redressable claims is a legally inadequate procedure. A right is not a right if every claimant has to sue to get it.
Rights are agreements between national sovereigns and their citizens, to defend with sovereign power greater than governments' their citizens' capacity to stay the hand of government abuse. You cannot expect citizens acting on their own to command power greater than government.
I have a solution to that - **CONGRESS** can make a law clarifying birthright citizenship.
Which is their area - and doesn't require the judiciary to exceed their authority.
"There is not a sufficient supply of lawyers in the nation to restore via class actions birthright citizenship to the status of a right. "
You don't know what a "class action" is, do you?
Since when is a judicial decision based on whether there are lawyers available to implement the result? No reason to ignore the law and rules of procedure. That is exactly in line with Jackson dissent though.
It's refreshing to see you affirm once again you have no regard for the rule of law.
MaddogEngineer — More generally, CASA, Inc. v. Trump examples a type of Supreme Court abuse that Congress will have to correct by legislation. Considered together with Trump v. United States, the cases show a repeatable pattern which enables and encourages politicized corruption on the Court.
The problem is a Court which supposes it is empowered to define a case before considering it. That encourages a majority to exclude from briefing and review everything but the bits which conduce to a particular outcome. If the majority finds the merits of the case embarrassing to a preferred outcome, confining review to the procedures gets rid of the problem.
The Constitution defines Supreme Court jurisdiction as, "Cases and Controversies." Not, "Procedures, Policy, and Politics." The former kind of review is more comprehensible to the public than the latter. So a Court intent on avoiding public scrutiny gravitates especially to recondite procedural ruminations, to obstruct public scrutiny, while thwarting redress for substantive controversies.
The remedy is to pass a law directing the Court to take all cases whole, on the basis of both the merits, and the procedures, and in that order. The Court must be required to show by a full review and opinion on the merits that a case has sufficient heft to justify further review, to determine whether a remedy or verdict should be blocked on the basis of inadequate or unfair procedures.
It is ridiculous on its face to let the Court bypass even a look at meritorious claims by inventing procedural novelties. Which in the two cases mentioned above this Court has done to avoid ever being seen to consider the actual issues that justified the controversies before it.
It ought to be self-evident that this Court has done that twice, with an eye to rig a judicial outcome to convenience political results the current right-wing majority favors. Procedural contortions this Court thus decreed will certainly not turn out to be long-lived legal standards. If an opposite political tendency in power tries to make similar use of them, this Court will supply still more procedural novelties, but opposite-tending ones.
This Court majority will never permit a Democratic administration to do to gun rights what the Trump administration has been licensed by the Court to do to birthright citizenship. On the basis of what the Court did in the two mentioned cases above, it is a horror to consider what it could do likewise to a case brought against a lawlessly invented federal executive branch mandate for a citizenship database.
Thus, the procedures-only style of Supreme Court review has been revealed as too vulnerable to unprincipled political machinations. That might not have happened, had the Court confined itself to use of time-honored principles of review handed down by previous Courts. But alas, the Supreme Court, being supreme, could not bear to thus constrain itself.
In these two cases the politically corrupt Court majority invented shockingly outcome-specific procedural justifications. It did that to defeat otherwise meritorious cases, without the embarrassment to itself it would have incurred, had it been required to review and discuss the cases' merits.
When it can assemble political power to do it, Congress can correct that with legislation which requires every case the SCOTUS accepts to be heard in full on the merits, before any procedures get consideration. No doubt, some will object that the workload for the Court would thus become too great, and that procedures-first is both more logical and more efficient. Perhaps so. The remedy for that will be more justices, not less justice, more efficiency, and more judicial politics.
Pretending the "politically corrupt Court" allows for ignoring the rule of law, because you want a particular outcome, is very on brand for you. That is itself politically corrupt, but you lack the self-awareness to recognize it.
Again, this decision about national injunctions had nothing to do with the underlying merits--the Court specifically did not agree to accept that question, and they subsequently did not decide to change their minds after oral arguments. I would feel the same way if it involved gun rights or anything similar. District court judges cannot give out national injunctions like chiclets. They can certify a class if the plaintiffs do the work to petition for one.
"Justice Roberts from Riley v. California (2014),"
was describing 'Homo Cellphonius' - a recent split in the Homo lineage noted for a prevalent bent arm. However, that split will be a dead end spur, along with the palm talkers The parallel 'Homo EarBudius' will persevere even though they're viewed as crazy people talking by themselves.
even though they're viewed as crazy people talking by themselves
When earbuds first came out, I saw someone walking down Madison Avenue talking, apparently to himself, and I literally thought the man was insane.
In this world only the insane prosper. Only those who prosper may judge what is sane.
The Martian would wonder why the district court judge got to violate the Constitution.
Famously, a group of Hungarians who worked on the Manhattan project were theorized to be Martians, given their incomprehensible language and otherworldly skills in physics and mathematics. It was never made clear whether they were Martians born in Hungary, or Martians born elsewhere. I am not sure whether all or only some of those supposed interplanetary aliens were Jewish.
Eugene, the uselessness of your other Martian comments is obvious to everybody here I imagine. Maybe you just weren't thinking. There is the appropriate and the inappropriate use of wisdom
Proverbs 26:7 states, "Like a lame man's legs, which hang useless, is a proverb in the mouth of fools".
Eugene, the uselessness of your other Martian comments is obvious to everybody here I imagine. Maybe you just weren't thinking. There is the appropriate and the inappropriate use of wisdom
Proverbs 26:7 states, "Like a lame man's legs, which hang useless, is a proverb in the mouth of fools".
Did they say "wait for it" --let's admit a certain applicability of what English grammars have always referred to:
Varieties of language at lower or higher levels in the spectrum are often referred to as lower or higher registers
=============
I remeber in grad school being told to (but I didn't do it) not use the word 'use' in academic papers but rather 'utilize' as for 'wait for it' Eugene knows but isn't saying
Are technologically advanced Martians legal persons? I remember Robert J. Sawyer's SF novel Illegal Alien quietly assumed that an alien was subject to human law the same as a natural born Earthling. That struck me as a big hole. Surely a lawyer would at least argue that his client having come from above the Earth was above the law.
If they are not legal persons, then is it murder to kill a Martian?
I will just go with she got so irrational her brain turned off and no one on her staff dare correct her on any point.