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Second Amendment Roundup: The Facial vs. As-Applied Quagmire
Public park bans should be held susceptible to facial challenges.
The issue has arisen in recent Second Amendment litigation of whether plaintiffs' challenges to restrictions are cognizable facially or only as-applied. On June 25, the question arose at the Second Circuit's oral argument in Christian v. James, 25-384-cv, an appeal of the district court's upholding of New York's ban on firearms in public parks. Referring to a prior precedent, the district court wrote: "In Antonyuk, the Second Circuit rejected the plaintiffs' facial challenge on the parks' issue, but recognized a potential distinction between urban and rural parks – to be decided, presumably, on an as-applied challenge."
Like other jurisdictions, New York relies on the Supreme Court's statement in United States v. Salerno (1987) that "A facial challenge to a legislative Act is, of course, the most difficult challenge to mount successfully, since the challenger must establish that no set of circumstances exists under which the Act would be valid." Tony Salerno was the "boss" of the Genovese crime family who participated in murder conspiracies. He thus couldn't exactly challenge the Bail Reform Act as applied himself.
In Christian, New York's attorney argued that "if 99% of a law is unconstitutional, but is 1% ok," it is valid because it has a constitutional application. But the question is whether the law at issue, not some other actual or theoretical law, can be constitutionally applied based upon the historical record supplied by the government. Indeed, that is the principle that synthesizes the Supreme Court's decisions in Heller and Rahimi.
In Heller, the Supreme Court held that the District of Columbia's ban on possession of handguns was facially unconstitutional under the Second Amendment. The Supreme Court confirmed in City of Los Angeles v. Patel (2015) that Heller involved a "facial challenge[ ]." And Heller declared D.C.'s ban facially unconstitutional despite the Court's dicta that a ban on possession of machine guns—presumably including fully automatic handguns—would be permissible. The Court did not reject Mr. Heller's facial claim because D.C. may have been able to ban a subset of handguns through a more targeted statute.
Under Heller, then, the fact that New York (for the sake of argument) may be able constitutionally to ban the possession of firearms in urban parks does not save from facial invalidity New York's ban on the possession of firearms in all parks, any more than D.C.'s presumed ability to ban fully automatic handguns saved from facial invalidity its attempt to ban all handguns.
Rahimi superficially appears to complicate the analysis, as there the Supreme Court invoked Salerno and held that the federal statute banning possession of firearms by a person subject to a domestic violence restraining order is constitutional at least with respect to persons who were determined to pose a threat of physical violence to another and therefore is not facially unconstitutional. But, critically, the statute at issue in Rahimi, 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(8)(C), did not just happen to sweep up persons against whom such findings had been made, but instead specifically applied to persons subject to two different types of orders: (i) those including "a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of [an] intimate partner or child," as well as (ii) those that simply "explicitly prohibit[ ] the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against [an] intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury." As Rahimi held, "the Government offers ample evidence that the Second Amendment permits the disarmament of individuals who pose a credible threat to the physical safety of others." Thus, since subparagraph (i) was consistent with this principle, the Court could uphold Section 922(g)(8) facially without determining whether the statute would be constitutional as applied to orders that satisfied only subparagraph (ii).
Rahimi does not support the facial validity of New York's park ban, because in no circumstance would the government be required to prove as an element of the offense that a person possessed a firearm in an urban park – in other words, there is no separate subsection of the statute that applies specifically to urban parks. For Rahimi to support New York, the state's law would have to say something like, "firearms are prohibited in (a) urban parks, and (b) all other parks." But New York did not adopt that statute, and its general ban on guns in parks is therefore facially unconstitutional.
This exact same issue came up in LaFave v. Fairfax County, which I argued in the Fourth Circuit on May 7. Fairfax County's public parks consist of mostly woodlands twice the acreage of Manhattan. The County argued "not invalid in all circumstances" because tiny parts are used for schools and playgrounds. But the County banned guns in all of the public parks, not in discrete segments it deemed "sensitive." Not to mention that guns are separately banned in schools by laws specifically on point.
The bottom line: The Supreme Court in Heller held that D.C.'s ban on handguns was facially unconstitutional despite the fact that the District may have been able to draft a valid, narrower statute that outlawed only a subset of handguns (i.e., fully automatic handguns). Similarly, the Second Circuit in Christian should hold that New York's parks ban is facially unconstitutional, even if the State may have been able to draft a valid, narrower statute that outlawed firearms in only a subset of parks (i.e., urban parks).
And note that this is in no way inconsistent with Salerno: because a general ban on firearms in parks is unsupported by history, such a ban is invalid in all of its applications, just as a general ban on handguns is invalid in all of its applications. Of course, I disagree with the premise that history does support banning firearms in urban parks, but for the reasons explained here the Second Circuit need not reach that question to hold the State's ban on guns in all parks facially unconstitutional.
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Giggity.
Halbrook argues here what I argued in my California Open Carry lawsuit, which brings both facial and as applied challenges. Halbrook is like a broken clock; he is momentarily correct twice a day but wrong the rest of the time.
And you are a broken 25 hour clock: never correct.
Stupid Government Tricks, shouldn't you be hanging around public restrooms trolling for pretty little boys?
Salerno is of terribly confusing and easily manipulate application. Why couldn't NY ban carrying guns everywhere and argue that it passes the Salerno test because they can ban carry in some places?
How is that an incorrect application of Salerno?
wvattorney13, you should watch the Baird v. Bonta oral argument in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. https://youtu.be/l9iriT-uSOM
Apparently the notion is that in Salerno the law actually had criteria that had to be satisfied, rather than a flat command that everybody gets detained prior to trial. Since (the Court ruled anyway) the law was constitutional in some of its applications, they could judicially rule which of the criteria were constitutionally valid.
But the NY park ban doesn't have criteria beyond "park", so there's no cleavage line the Court can split it at, and it must go as a whole, or not at all.
I don't really think that helps, though, because while a scholar sort of has to analyze what the Court is doing as though it were doing something principled and consistent, Rahimi reveals a Court that's willing to just rationalize upholding gun laws if it likes them.
But how would Salerno have turned out differently had it said that everyone would be detained prior to trial?
The government could have argued that the law had some constitutional applications; that it could at least detain some people prior to trial. And since the law had constitutional applications (detaining some people prior to trial) it would be facially valid.
I simply can't understand why ANY law passes the Salerno test. Take the gay marriage cases. Since at least some gay marriages can be banned (a gay person is already married, is underage, or wishes to marry a close family member) then there are some applications of the law that are valid.
Take any issue, apply Salerno, and the facial challenge loses.
To be clear, I think a lot of these "tests" are just window dressing on outcome based decision making, but...
Apparently facially unconstitutional doesn't mean that there are no circumstances under which you could do the action specified by the law constitutionally. As you observe, under THAT standard hardly any law would ever be unconstitutional.
I think it means something more like there not being any obvious text based on which you could distinguish the constitutional from the unconstitutional applications by parsing the text just right.
Like if you had a law saying that the police could shoot people on the basis of a Magic 8 ball... Clearly, by random chance, sometimes the ball would say to go ahead and shoot them when there really was proper cause to shoot them. But that legal application isn't a function of any text in the law, it's just chance. There's no approach to using the Magic 8 ball that distinguishes the constitutional and unconstitutional applications.
In Salerno, you had a law with a test that actually hinged on what the Court thought was a valid criterion, which if applied in a way the Court approved of, would distinguish constitutional from unconstitutional applications. So, not only were there applications that would be constitutional, in principle you could distinguish them from each other based on something in the text, if you read it 'right'.
In the immediate case, you have a law saying, 'no guns in parks'. It provides no textual basis AT ALL from distinguishing one 'park' from another, so if application to some 'parks' is unconstitutional, so is the law.
Or so the theory goes, anyway.
I don’t know enough about the case or the issue to intelligently comment. But as a general matter, I found this article very helpful when thinking through facial versus as applied challenges. https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/facpub/365/
"The Constitution prohibits not objects but actions."
Not really true, as an unqualified rule. The Constitution prohibits both.
The 1st amendment begins with the five most beautiful words in the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law..."; That is, facially, prohibiting 'objects', laws. Sure, the action of making them, but still laws. Entire subject matter are marked out as prohibited areas to legislate upon.
It clearly meant this definition of object:
a material thing that can be seen and touched.
"A facial challenge to a legislative Act is, of course, the most difficult challenge to mount successfully, since the challenger must establish that no set of circumstances exists under which the Act would be valid."
There is no set of circumstances where a ban on carrying (bearing) arms in not an "infringement".
Which is why prisoners should be able to bear in the joint!
Rights CAN be lost as a result of felony convictions. Originally only felony convictions, of course.
The Court allowed losing your 2nd amendment rights over misdemeanor convictions, but that was at a time when they hadn't yet gotten around to ruling that the 2nd amendment guaranteed an individual right, and they analyzed the situation as loss of a privilege, not a right.
But nobody disputes that you can lose your right to keep and bear arms for at least the duration of a felony sentence.
I’m just commenting on his overstatement.
And I'm just pointing out that your comment doesn't actually follow from his, because convicted felons routinely lose even rights the judiciary likes.
What historical tradition of firearms regulation would allow a convicted felon, who has been released from confinement or supervision, to be barred from possessing firearms? All felons, even violent ones?
Applying Bruen, how could those people be disarmed?
What was the distribution of sentencing for felonies in colonial-ish America, i.e. what percentage of rapists were A)executed, B)flogged, C)imprisoned, D)something else? My sense is that imprisonment (other than awaiting trial) was pretty rare for common criminals in the 1700s, but I haven't seen numbers.
I ask because it's at least a straight faced argument that if a crime was usually a capital crime, then lifetime disarmament is a lesser penalty. You could always offer continued imprisonment, or execution, as an option for those who don't wish to be free but disarmed, I suppose.
This argument wouldn't work for newer felonies like sticking a bluebird feather in your hatband or whatever.
The "lesser includes the greater" is usually a faulty argument. Under that belief, we could dismember and whip convicted felons under the guise that we could have executed them at the founding.
Could we say that felons cannot worship their deity of choice, or have no more jury trials in the future, as those would be lesser punishments than being dead.
As we could do the greater, surely we can do the lesser.
In other words, simply because we could have imposed a different and likely harsher punishment, it does not follow that disarmament for life or any other given lesser punishment is a proper punishment, especially when we have evidence of non-capital felons at the time of the founding and none of them were permanently disarmed.
Bruen says we are to look at history---not some hypothetical version of history where possibly something else could have been done.
"I ask because it's at least a straight faced argument that if a crime was usually a capital crime, then lifetime disarmament is a lesser penalty."
That IS the argument, as I understand it. Obviously felony inflation has made it into nonsense.
Now, I know there actually was a history at the time of disarming convicted felons for the duration of their sentences. Not so sure about after the sentence was up.
The real constitutional issue with felon disarmament is the way it has been implemented, by imposing all sorts of restrictions on non-felons, purportedly to keep guns out of the hands of those felons.
"Purportedly", of course, because they don't actually accomplish that, and probably aren't intended to. The impositions on the non-felons being the real point of those laws.
But if you implemented it by simply having a "if we happen to catch you" regime, with no requirements placed on anybody but the felons, I think it would be constitutionally permissible. Largely futile, of course, (Though maybe not in the case of felons who really want to go straight, and simply have really bad impulse control.) but permissible.
One resolution is to import the overbreadth doctrine from First Amendment law.
"Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in its manifold possibilities, they might have been more specific. They did not presume to have this insight. They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress. As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom."
--Lawrence v. Texas
In search of greater freedom in its manifold possibilities, I have the right to carry a gun in a park, among many other places. Don't know why gun-rights people don't cite this paragraph in every case they bring. There's no reason why the reasoning here doesn't apply to almost every gun regulation.
Because it isn't serious legal scholarship. As you point out, you could apply that citation to absolutely everything you would like to do.
That line of thought retired with Justice Kennedy or is at least only good for gay rights.
I completely agree Lawrence is bullshit as a matter of constitutional law. But it’s a majority holding in a major semi-recent “civil-rights” case. Using it to support gun rights forces two factions of the Court to recon with it. First, the liberals who support Lawrence and its reasoning have to explain why it doesn’t apply to things they don’t like. Second, the conservatives who insist on a strong adherence to stare decisis have to explain why it doesn’t apply to gun rights.
It also forces lower courts to explain why they think they can get around binding SCOTUS precedent.
In other words, it’ll either 1) work and expand gun rights, or 2) put the lie to Lawrence and maybe get it overruled or abrogated.
I would offer that you stop using the phrase 'fully automatic'.
The terms are just 'automatic' and 'semiautomatic' - 'fully automatic' is a phrase that screams 'I know nothing about firearms'.
>"the Government offers ample evidence that the Second Amendment permits the disarmament of individuals who pose a credible threat to the physical safety of others."
That would be everyone with a firearm. This would be justification for banning all firearm possession other than that of state agents. The *point* of having a firearm is that you are now a credible threat.
Note - not imminent threat but *credible*.
So if being. A credible threat is enough to allow the government to disarm you, then the government can disarm everyone.