The Volokh Conspiracy
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Supreme Court Issues Terrible Shadow Docket Decision Lifting Injunction Against "Third Country" Deportations of Migrants Without Due Process
The ruling includes no analysis. Justice Sotomayor's dissent has a compelling explanation of why it is wrong.

In yesterday's decision in Department of Homeland Security v. D.V.D, the Supreme Court stayed a lower-court injunction barring the federal government from deporting migrants slated for deportation to "third countries" without due process - that is, nations other than their countries of origin or ones they had agreed to be sent to. Such deportations risk sending migrants to places where they might be subject to violence or torture, and where they have no connections or ability to support themselves, as, e.g., in the case of Asians and Latin Americans deported to places like South Sudan.
Like many "shadow docket" decisions, this one includes no reasoning justifying the majority's ruling. Justice Sonia Sotomayor's dissent on behalf of the three liberal justices provides a compelling statement of the many reasons why this is decision is a terrible mistake.
Here is a brief excerpt:
Turning to the constitutional claim, this Court has repeatedly affirmed that " 'the Fifth Amendment entitles aliens to due process of law' in the context of removal proceedings." J. G. G., 604 U. S., at ___ (slip op., at 3); A. A. R. P., 605 U. S., at ___ (slip op., at 3). Due process includes reasonable notice and an opportunity to be heard. Mullane v. Central Hanover Bank & Trust Co., 339 U. S. 306, 314 (1950). Of course the Government cannot avoid its obligation to provide due process "in the context of removal proceedings," J. G. G., 604 U. S., at ___ (slip op., at 3), by skipping such proceedings entirely and simply whisking noncitizens off the street and onto busses or planes out of the country.
It is axiomatic, moreover, that when Congress enacts a statutory entitlement, basic procedural due process protections attach. Mathews v. Eldridge, 424 U. S. 319, 332 (1976). Congress expressly provided noncitizens with the right not to be removed to a country where they are likely to be tortured or killed. See 8 U. S. C. §1231 note. As this Court has explained, the " 'right to be heard before being condemned to suffer grievous loss of any kind . . . is a principle basic to our society.' " Mathews, 424 U. S., at 333
(quoting Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Comm. v. McGrath, 341 U. S. 123, 168 (1951) (Frankfurter, J., concurring)). Being deprived of the right not to be deported to a country likely to torture or kill you plainly counts. Thus, plaintiffs have a right to be heard.
This is just one of many good points Sotomayor makes in her dissent. Perhaps the majority has compelling responses to them. But, if so, I wish they would tell us.
I am not one of those commentators who categorically rejects the Supreme Court's greatly increased use of the "shadow docket" in recent years. Sometimes, these quick rulings based on limited briefing, no oral argument, and truncated time for deliberation are necessary to prevent serious injustices from continuing. But they can also lead to badly reasoned or wrongheaded decisions, which I fear is what happened here.
One question that comes to mind is why the Supreme Court majority was willing to torpedo due process here, despite pushing hard to protect it in its three recent Alien Enemies Act deportation rulings. Justice Sotomayor pointedly cites them in the passage quoted above.
I don't know the answer, because the majority didn't tell us. But two possible explanations come to mind. First, maybe the majority believes (correctly) that Trump's invocation of the Alien Enemies Act is illegal, whereas they think the administration does have the authority to deport the migrants at issue in the D.V.D. case. But even if the administration is legally entitled to deport these people somewhere, Justice Sotomayor compellingly demonstrates that serious due process issues arise with deporting them to third countries.
A second possible explanation is that the majority justices don't think it matters much exactly where these people are deported to, so long as deportation to some location outside the US is legal. But, as Sotomayor explains, in many cases the destination matters greatly. I don't think you need to be a legal scholar or an immigration policy expert to see why. Just imagine being deported to a poverty-stricken, violent country, ruled by an oppressive government, where you have no contacts and don't speak the local language.
Perhaps there is some other crucial distinction between the AEA cases and D.V.D. that influenced the majority justices, that I overlooked. If so, I wish they had told us what it is. If nothing else, this case highlights the desirability of including at least some explanation of the reasons for the result when the Supreme Court issues a "shadow docket" ruling on an important issue - as this one surely is.
UPDATE: Quinta Jurecic has a valuable Lawfare article detailing the history of this case, and the government's various attempts to circumvent court orders, verging on outright defiance.
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Nope, still not sorry this is happening to you.
Looking forward to you explaining to us why the district judge is wrong to try and ignore this decision, by relying on that "compelling explanation" dissent. Because we're all against lawlessness, right?
This isn’t happening to him.
You are better than this MAGA tribal analysis ends at who is sad shit.
Somin is not silly, not stupid, but he is not telling the truth. All that lawyer gibberish is to keep Democrat voters in this country. Until another Democrat administration makes them all voting citizens, they will be counted by the Census. They will add 4 to the number of Democrat Representatives in the House.
That tactic will work. We will become a permanent one party state, like Venezuela, Cuba, and California, and an irretrievable, permanent shithole
You seriously underestimate how much contempt I have for outcome based legal arguments and advocacy, whether they come from MAGA or The Resistance™.
You made it some personal thing about his feelings.
If you think his argument is outcome oriented, say that and explain why.
Leave the creepy empty Somin hare-posts to those who don’t have the wherewithal to do better.
Sorry, I keep forgetting I need your approval for my opinions.
I have, several times, explained why his arguments are outcome oriented. It's just like the death penalty opponents, who will argue any angle to derail the next capital case and get the sentence overturned. I do not doubt their sincerity of conviction, but their desire for due process is not because they think the law is constitutional. They keep hoping for their right case, and the right court, to once again strike down capital punishment.
So it is with Somin and anything immigration or border related, tariff etc. Here he's not primarily interested in whether the due process question here extends to third country deportations. Because he's against any deportations, and is uninterested in whether there is contrary law or precedent. Because he believes Congress does not have this authority under the Constitution.
This blogging is in contrast to Professor Adler (who I've already favorably mentioned), but I will also highlight the namesake proprietor. I enjoy Professor Volokh's interest in pseudonymity, especially because of his competing interest in the First Amendment and open records access. He seems sincere in trying to find the boundaries between the two, with a default preference for disclosure.
Not so with Somin, who does not think Congress has the constitutional authority to legislatively restrict immigration. You know what? I don't like tariffs either, but I'm not going to pretend laws don't say what they appear to because of that. There at least Somin is somewhat authentic in his opposition to delegation. I just call BS on others who don't want Trump to use them.
The judge is not free to ignore this "decision" (there's not actually a decision — just an order). The judge did not in fact ignore this order, which does nothing more than stay one particular order by the judge.
He basically ignored it. He basically said the SCOTUS stay doesn't apply because the DISSENT said it didn't. That basically thumbing your nose at the stay.
How much fun would the judicial insurrection be if you couldn't ignore the rule of law?
"Judicial insurrection" is just standard MAGA "IKYABWAI?" It's "You called us insurrectionists for trying to overthrow the government, so we'll accuse anyone who opposes us of 'insurrection.'" It's just like how "You called the guy who revealed Trump's illegal attempt to extort Ukraine a whistleblower, so we'll call anyone who makes any accusation against our opponents a whistleblower."
And yet when the Administration evades the intent of a court order, because it doesn't actually apply to the action they are taking its a constitutional crises.
Even if your characterization of what the administration has been doing were correct, the two are not comparable. If a judge ignores a higher court order, the higher court can reverse him or even remove him from the case entirely. No constitutional crisis. But if the administration ignores court orders, there are by definition no judicial remedies. Constitutional crisis.
"Constitutional crisis."
Another phrase used so often that it has become meaningless
So now you're parsing whether I used the right word to describe what SCOTUS did here? Really?
You don't think the judge subsequently saying, because the order wasn't accompanied by an explanation, that it doesn't actually apply to HIS injunction because of something in a written dissent? What was the point of SCOTUS issuing such an order, if it might not be applicable to the case or controversy before the district court?
People like you would lose your mind if a single judge district in Texas tried something like this.
link: https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docket/docketfiles/html/public/24a1153.html
Don't want to be sent back to some place you don't like? Don't come here illegally. Or blame your own c&*phole country for not taking you back. Why don't you convince them to let you back in or try one of the hundreds of other countries. Is the US the only place in the world with free space? I like how in Mr. Somin's world somehow only the US government has any volition and all the brown people and countries are just helpless pawns that can't do anything or have any responsibility and yet they simultaneously deserve respect and privileges.
AmosArch doesn't even understand that this isn't limited to people who came here illegally. People who came here legally can still be removable.
You're skipping over the part where Congress passed a law, subsequently signed by the President, that says the government can't deport folks to random other countries providing procedural protections.
"Because we're all against lawlessness, right?"
Anyone cheering on the deep violations of people's civil rights by the current administration, especially by masked police who refuse to identify and appear to violate the 4th Amendment on the regular, isn't against lawlessness. The laws restrict citizen and government alike.
One more in a long line of results-oriented reasoning from Prof. Somin.
Sotomayor and Somin stated their reasons. The SCOTUS majority didn't. Which one has the markings of "results-oriented," hmm?
The reasons don't matter to Prof. Somin. He starts with the result and works backwards. He doesn't care about his reasons, so why should I?
The reasons sure don’t matter to you. Nor the issue. You just wanna yell at The Devil Somin.
Poor, Somin.
Like with the late and not so great Jimmuh Cartuh, whatever The Wise-Ass Latina says is usually wrong, and as a simple guy, here’s a simple solution, don’t come here uninvited (that old Flick, “The Uninvited” still scares me as much today as when I first saw it at 9 or 10)
Well, it took longer than I thought for Somin's Sillies but he finally came through.
The irony of bumble of all people calling a substantive contribution silly is almost too much to take. It’s like a free ride when all you need is a knife.
What is it about the analysis in the post from a law professor you find silly? Or were you just here for a little goût de cheville?
As Molly says below— Dump on due process if you wish, but realize what you are willingly sacrificing.
I don't think I am alone in thinking Somin's positions on most subjects he writes about are "silly". Wouls stupid have been more apt?
“Wouls stupid have been more apt?”
LOL, no, I think stupid just about sums it up here!
“I don't think I am alone in thinking Somin's positions on most subjects he writes about are "silly"”
Again. Can you provide an example herein or not? Try to come up with something on your own rather than cribbing from others.
Why do you hate due process?
"Why do you hate due process?"
Explain what you think due process is in this case?
The people in question had their due process and are under final orders of deportation. Their own countries won't take them and the law allows for them to be deported to a third country.
(Also, never made a typo, you pompous ass?)
due process would be receiving a notice of what third country they're being deported to, and having the opportunity to raise a fear of torture or death under CAT. that's the process Federal immigration law provides.
dropping deportees off in the middle of a battlefield against the consent of both warring armies seems likely to result in torture or death.
Due process is raising that issue before you're about to be dropped on a plane.
As always, even when Brett thinks he has made a point, it's based on him not knowing the facts. They couldn't do that because the government gave them no notice. That's precisely what the issue here is. The plaintiffs are not saying, "You can't deport us." They're saying, "You have to give us enough notice of your plans so that we can assert our rights." (And yes, not being sent to a place where one is going to be tortured is actually a right.)
“what you think due process is in this case?”
Answer a question with a question. Classic rhetoric! You blundered here, Bumble.
For those who mock due process for immigrants, this same due process protects you.
Are you a citizen?
No? Okay GTFO.
Due process provided.
Scenario: You are accidentally arrested by ICE. They think you are an illegal immigrant when in fact you are a citizen.
If not for due process you would likely be deported.
Oh c'mon. LexAquilia is confident that only happens to brown people.
Are you a citizen?
Yes? Okay you're free to go.
Parade of Horribles avoided.
Good thing ICE takes people at their word. /s
Yes, that's how that works. Next question?
Trying to conflate the due process owed an alien, to make sure a citizen is not accidentally deported, which has nothing to do with the case of an alien who has had his full due process owed him and found deportable, is nonsense. The question here is whether another full blown district court review is due him because of the third country he is being deported to.
Somin doesn't like this, not because it's a third country deportation, but because it's a deportation period. The third country thing just gives him another legal avenue to obstruct a deportation.
Let's try MaddogEngineer's statement again in a different hue:
"Trying to conflate the due process owed [a nonviolent criminal], to make sure [an innocent person] is not accidentally [imprisoned], which has nothing to do with the case of [a nonviolent criminal] who has had his full due process owed him and found [guilty], is nonsense. The question here is whether another full blown district court review is due [a convicted nonviolent criminal] because of the [illegal death penalty sentence]."
The one in which notbob proves that different things are not the same.
You realize that not every immigrant is automatically deportable, right? There are non-citizens who are allowed to be in the United States. Even more shocking, there are non-citizens who aren't allowed to be sent to certain countries. That's written into the law. If you don't like that, you can change the law.
But, if the law is currently being ignored, why do you think the "are you a citizen" distinction matters either. If one law can be ignored, why not another?
Due process: apply for a visa and come here legally.
Not due process: sneak over the border illegally and then fake ID paperwork, probably stealing someone else's ID (how *do* they fill out the I-9s?)
If you are an illegal immigrant, you are not entitled to much more due process than "show me your ID."
And ICE seize you and don't give you the chance to prove you were here legally. Now what? "Them's the breaks"?
Why are you ignoring what he said?
Yes, a police state is exactly what they want.
Immigrants are *required* by law to carry paperwork and visas proving they are here legally.
Immigrants are *required* by law to carry paperwork and visas proving they are here legally.
Right, so if ICE don't believe you're a citizen they will take the absence of documentation as evidence you're here illegally.
You really haven't thought this through and I doubt you want to.
Histrionics don't impress me. ICE is not going after US citizens.
Demonstrably false. But I don’t think you care.
If it's demonstrably false, demonstrate!
(I am not denying that some citizens, in areas where a bunch of targeted illegals are being legitimately rounded up, may have been detained. I think we're talking about deportation here. Guess what can happen within 50 miles of the border, if CBP finds an American citizen in an unusual situation.)
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/children-who-are-u-s-citizens-deported-along-with-foreign-born-mothers-attorneys-say
That is true. But the statutory penalty for forgetting one's wallet is not deportation.
Why do you think that ICE has no legal obligation to verify the immigration status of aliens? That's part of the due process owed an alien, and is happening in almost all cases except the attempted AEA deportations.
I guess you Resistance™ types are trying to conflate deporting a citizen with deporting a lawful alien. Maybe stop believing your own propaganda for a minute, if you want to have a good faith discussion.
So you're against the exception cases, right? When you say "almost all" that's what you're against?
I said "almost all" because the AEA is outside the current INA statutory regime, being a quasi-wartime authority where (almost, again) no one actually thinks the government needs to get a court's permission to deal with presumptive hostile aliens.
Bad facts make bad law, with no one anticipating a president might stretch such a law beyond the expected circumstances. Of course I never anticipated that the CDC might have authority to impose a renter eviction moratorium under public health laws, but live and learn!
So yes, I said "almost all" to exclude AEA litigation from INA litigation. But in both situations, the first duty of ICE/CBP is verifying the individual is a deportable alien (and not a citizen).
How much process is a legal immigrant entitled to?
Is there some large scale significant plague of American citizens being deported? Please provide a citation.
Otherwise if the person is an illegal they should be out the door in a second. It shouldn't take a 10 year multimillion dollar multistage appeal process to determine whether each and every single illegal belongs here. But thats what you guys want. you want to drag out the process and make it so onerous that a significant percentage ends up staying since its too much of a hassle to get rid of anyone ( even for criminals beyond just immigration aliens) circumventing the law and building up a supporter base to drown out the native vote.
This is how I feel about rapists. They should be executed "in a second." Screw having a trial, amiright?
You can't assume the facts by fiat and then whine that it's a waste of time having a process to establish the facts.
Maybe someday someone wrongly accuses you a being a rapist. But y'know, trials are for suckers.
The other one where notbob proves definitively that different cases are not the same.
Not in this case. As I'm a citizen, due process protects me from being deported AT ALL, leaving the question of where I'd be deported to entirely irrelevant.
This is all about people who got their due process, and have final orders of deportation, and is only about where they land when they get kicked out the door. Citizens would be sorted out earlier in the process.
The real legal issue here is the question of international law, and countries refusing to take back their own citizens.
and is only about where they land when they get kicked out the door
And they received due process for that as well.
This case is about a district court judge who really, really doesn't like immigration law as written.
They did not. Not even by Trump's announced cramped fascist standards for what due process is. (24 hours notice that one is being removed.)
We'll see about that, won't we?
Inadmissible immigrants have due process. They have a removability hearing before an immigration judge. That is federal law (INA). It is a civil proceeding.
There is no "due process" being violated. You understand that these people have had their day in court, right?
the government attempted to deport these people to Libya. apparently neither the Libyan government, nor the major opposition insurgency, were willing to take deportees. apparently the US's plans to deport people to Libya sparked a major street battle in Tripoli, with the worst fighting since 2022. this is by Marco Rubio's own sworn testimony, as related by Sotomayor in her dissent.
Congress codified the Convention Against Torture into immigration law. how is deporting these people to Libya possibly legal? or does the President have carte blanche to ignore immigration procedures enacted by Congress because aliens have no Due Process rights, or something?
It should not go on unmentioned that the reason they are deporting them there, is these are like the worst of the worst, no one else will take. So, I understand why SCOTUS signed, it's not easy to find a place that will these persons.
I’d like a process to establish what you just ipse dixited.
It is also ipse dixit that these immigrants are anti-social, considering their home country rejects them. How hard is it to imprison?
Why? Does immigration law require that?
That seems exactly what is disputed here. Especially whether the Convention on Torture was codified into immigration law the way some are claiming it is to prevent such deportations.
Maybe it has been, and eventually we might get a ruling on the merits. But again, that has little to do with the standard to obtain an injunction and the irreparable harm standard for which some are trying to recenter the Overton window.
The idea that we should hide behind legal formalism and make no inquiry whether we are deporting the kinds of people we claim to be departing is a bad one.
Lack of process for exercising any government power including deportation is how you get authoritarianism.
Talk to your Senators and Congressmen/women, then.
The administration is following the law. The SC agrees.
Following the law is hiding behind formalism? Sounds rather lawless to me. You're making a political argument, not a legal one. Which I'm fine with.
Just like a senator took the floor years ago, trying to get a public commitment from President Obama that he would specifically drone target American citizens overseas.
what are these deportees guilty of? what crimes have they committed? I'm specifically asking about the Vietnamese, Laotian and Filipino class members the government tried to deport to Libya.
ICE spokesman said the men had been convicted of rape, homicide, armed robbery and other crimes.
link?
that may be true for some of the deportees, but the class consists of any alien with a final deportation order who can't be returned to his home country. as far as I'm aware, DHS hasn't given any information about the criminal history of the Asian deportees they tried to remove to Libya.
if these men are convicted of raping and murdering Americans, why is Trump removing them to South Sudan rather than keeping them incarcerated here? serious criminals would rather live freely in a war zone than rot for life in supermax.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
if these men are convicted of raping and murdering Americans, why is Trump removing them to South Sudan rather than keeping them incarcerated here? serious criminals would rather live freely in a war zone than rot for life in supermax.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Maybe because we shouldn't have the world use us as a dumping ground for their worst criminals?
It's not uncommon for illegals convicted of crimes to be deported in order to serve their time in their home countries instead.
Of course, you're assuming that they haven't already served their sentences here in the US. In those cases, ICE will scoop them up upon release from prison and then deport them.
It's kind of uncommon, but that's also irrelevant here since it's not what the administration is doing. It's not trying to send them to Libya or South Sudan to serve their sentences.
I was answering a question that thenotoriousrbg asked.
I also noted that they may well have served time in the US already.
The crimes for which lawful residents can be deported are the worst under federal law (rape, murder, drug trafficking). Why the hell do you want to wait until these crimes occur before you do something?
Why do we want to wait until someone commits a crime before we punish him for committing a crime? Hmm. Let me think about that.
Drug possession, intentional damaging of property where the suspended sentence is at least a year, two convictions of crimes of dishonesty, etc.
It should in act go unmentioned because it's entirely made up.
not in this case. Even the plaintiffs don't deny the crimes they have committed. The problem is no other countries are willing to take them. Which is why I think the SCOTUS ruled for the government, because it's these countries or nowhere.
The problem being their own countries won't take them. Maybe put in place some sanctions against those countries?
1) SCOTUS did not rule for the government.
2) Yes, those who have been convicted of crimes do not deny that they have been convicted of crimes; doing so would be pointless, after all. That does not make them the "worst of the worst," though — though to be sure, that is worse than the people never convicted of anything that the government just falsely claims are TdA or MS-13 with photoshopped pictures. In any case, "We can ignore the Convention Against Torture because otherwise we can't find any place to deport some people" isn't a thing.
St Abrego is an MS-13 terrorist, David. Can't hide that.
Still lying. I'm surprised you're willing to show your face after being humiliated about the Iran bombing debacle.
Even the guy's wife tried to photoshop out his gang tats.
Stop the fucking gaslighting.
The fact that they're here illegally makes them the worst, that they committed serious crimes while here illegally? Worst of the worst.
Someone who, e.g., overstays their visitor visa is "the worst"?
Have you stopped thinking before you write?
No, actually I did think it through: The very phrase, "the worst of the worst", implies that the term "worst" is not being used in an absolute sense, as there can only be one "worst", unless maybe you have a tie. So the first "worst" has to apply to people who absolutely have room to be worse.
Rather, "the worst" is used here as a synonym for "bad", that's the only way the phrase makes any sense.
So, they're "bad" on account of being intentionally present in the country illegally, and they're the worst among those bad, or "worst", on account of also having committed serious crimes in addition to their illegal presence.
So, yes, interpreting the phrase in the only way that doesn't render it redundant/nonsensical, illegal aliens who also commit unrelated crimes ARE "the worst of the worst".
"the worst" is used here as a synonym for "bad".
Or someone is just lying.
I gave my reasoning, do you care to engage with it? Or just hurl baseless accusations?
Yeah you did a lot of work to ignore evident bad faith and come up with an irrational parsing.
I hope you are satisfied you have rationalized sufficiently.
Read the INA, these are some seriously foul acts of violence and moral turpitude in which the person qualifies for removability.
You act like you've never heard the phrase, "worst of the worst" before...
I can help! The normal usage refers to murderers, kidnappers and rapists within a particular population, e.g., inmates in a prison. The prisoners are the "worst", and the murderers, kidnappers and rapists" are the "worst of the worst".
But you've applied the first "worst" to anyone "here illegally", which class includes a vast number of people who have committed very minor crimes--at "worst". It's almost like you're trying to convince yourself that overstaying a visa is some kind of hoary crime, rather than a minor violation of law...
Yes, it's almost like I consider deliberately illegally immigrating a serious crime. So much like it, that I DO consider it a serious crime.
Whereas you think it's a trifle.
Guess which of us has the law actually on their side?
Brett feels oppressed because his gun law takes aren’t adopted by everyone else.
Meanwhile he rationalizes open oppression of a group based on no law, just his vibes
Not you. EWI is a misdemeanor.
…said no libertarian in the history of the existence of homo sapiens.
I'm not sure what you think is "entirely made up" here.
Is it that their home countries taking them is not actually happening? Is it that no other third country would take them? Because that seems likely, regardless of whether they are the "worst of the worst".
Is it because the government may be prioritizing their deportation because they have evidence and/or a belief that they are bad criminals, but that is something (yet) not proven in any proceeding? I wasn't aware of any requirement for the government to prioritize deportation efforts according to such a heightened standard.
There is no evidence that these are anything other than normal detainees.
Under final orders of deportation who won't be accepted by their home country.
My understanding is that both the South Sudan and Libyan governments have agreed to not torture them.
Who wants to bet that El Salvador agreed to exactly the same thing?
They probably did.
I have yet to see any credible reports of systemic torture at CECOT as defined under the CAT.
1) You made that up. Indeed, the Libyan government — to the extent that's a coherent concept — didn't even agree to take them. At this point the administration is just picking failed states that don't have the ability to prevent it.
2) Even if you hadn't made it up, do you think that's how the CAT works? Pinky promises to behave?
I was relying on my memory, dickhead. Thanks for assuming I made it up.
It appears that DHS has not revealed whether they have received assurances yet, but the guidance that they rely upon doesn't require it, either.
Given that many of your ilk think American prison standards constitute torture already, you're not mentally equipped to determine what is torture either.
I don’t know enough about immigration law to evaluate whether the ruling is terrible, but otherwise I have the same concerns you do. It would seem that the United States would have to demonstrate that the other locations of deportation listed in the statute are impractical, in advisable or impossible to use the deportation location of last resort. And I have a hard time seeing why JGG got stayed and this one had the stay lifted.
I'm interested to see what SCOTUS does with the government's motion to "clarify" the motion and removal of the district court Judge. Plaintiff's reply was eye opening.
I do think the Judge is being a bit obstinate. Using a dissent opinion to justify your interpretation is pretty bold in this situation.
Agreed. The motion is for clarification. Whatever the conservative justices do with the motion, if they again do it without any reasoning, they will have clarified nothing, even if they allow trump to “fire up the deportation planes”.
Using the dissent in your reasoning earns a failing grade in law school.
Um, no. Relying on the dissent as lawful authority for a ruling doesn’t work, but judges cite dissents all the time.
At what point will "constitutional scholars" stop treating the "conservative" monsters on the court with respect?
Ironically the only Surpreme who really looks like a monster is the Wise-Ass Latina
Roughly about the same time conservatives stop taking "constitutional scholars" seriously.
Wouldn’t it be better if Kill-more Garcias kills more Garcias (or human traffics Garcias) somewhere other than the US? He’s killing and trafficking Garcias an Amurican born Garcia could be killing and trafficking
Judges ignoring SCOTUS.
Vice-mayors calling on illegal gangs to rise-up against the Feds.
Denver shutting down license plate readers.
Judges scuttling illegal criminals out of their courtrooms.
The extent the Democrats will go protect their voters is really impressive. It's too bad they don't love White people or Americans as much as they love brown illegals.
Unmentioned, but worth considering, the question whether the deportees going to third countries will be delivered into custody there. Seems like if the answer to that question is yes, then the decision is an abuse of due process to shock the conscience.
On the other hand, if Abrego Garcia is free upon release into South Sudan to make his way wherever else in the world he can arrange—whether Greenland, Panama, or Canada, etc.—then the decision is merely another example to prove this Court is run by right wing partisan tools.
why would they need to send Abrego Garcia to Sudan? His home country is El Salvador which took custody of him previously.
Well, if he still objects to going back to El Salvador, maybe Sudan should be considered.
Personally I'd prefer clearing the immigration block on returning him to El Salvador, but I'm still not sure of the legal impediments to that, even though the factual reasons that got him the original restriction have gone away.
Agree - They should not be incarcerated for crimes not committed in those countries where they are being sent.
Home countries must accept these removals, otherwise there's no common law between countries and no civility among nations to protect their citizens. Failure to accept responsibility for their people would be, and is, a failure of the entire system of modern political organization.
At this point, I think it’s completely accurate to say, after both Dobbs and Alliance for Open Society, that the constitutional status of an alien outside US territory is identical to that of a fetus. Government can protect them by statute if it wants, but doesn’t have to.
Thus there is no concept of “shocks the conscience.” Exactly as with abortion, some people’s consciences are shocked by certain practices, but others are not. And it’s no business of the judiciary which opinion prevails.
It’s worth remembering Justice Stephens’ concurring opinion in the first Carhart case, joined by Justice Ginsburg. Justice Stephens argued that it is IRRATIONAL to be concerned about how an aborted fetus is treated. If it’s going to be aborted, why does it rationally matter if some people consider the way it’s treated during the abortion barbaric?
One could apply the same logic to aliens. If Justice Stephens view is right, and morality just doesn’t apply to non-persons, then outside the country, it’s perfectly reasonable to regard an alien as morally indistinguishable from Gloria Steinham’s appendix, and moreover to regard moral concerns like “shocks the conscience” as an irrational imposition of religious superstition on what Americans need to do to get on with their lives.
I have often noted that liberal attitudes towards aliens (including outside US territory) are often a mirror image of conservative attitudes towards fetuses, and vice versa. But constitutionally, I think it’s a fair assessment of the current state of the law to say that they are both in the same boat.
ReaderY — "Shocks the conscience," is a legal test, not a moral concern:
The "shocks the conscience" test is a widely used substantive due process protection that analyzes excessive force claims. More specifically, under excessive force law, the "shocks the conscience" test evaluates whether the government has violated a person's constitutional rights.
https://www.law.cornell.edu › Wex shocks the conscience | Wex - Law.Cornell.Edu
Your blather about abortion is a subject change, and a poorly chosen one. No one argues the detainees in these cases are not persons.
But it applies only when due process applies. And the point of my comment was that due process doesn’t concern what happens to an alien once outside US ferritoritory. Aliens outside of US territory are outside the scope of due process, and what happens to them once they leave US borders is of no concern to the Constitution.
Hence the analogy to abortion. People who oppose abortion’s consciences are indeed shocked by it, but not the consciences of people who favor it.
The point of bringing up Justice Stephen’s Carhart concurrence was that this opinion said that PERMITTING legislatures to apply shocks-the-consciousness type tests to those outside the scope of due process is itself irrational, that it’s positively inappropriate to apply them, constitutionally forbidden to apply them, to cases where due process does not apply.
You may disagree with the correctness of the analogy to abortion as a moral matter, of how the law should be. But I’m suggesting that it nonetheless predicts how the current Supreme Court rules on these cases. That is, it describes how the state of the law is.
Seems like an issue with their home countries.
Take up your beef with them.
“[T]he Fifth Amendment entitles aliens to due process of
law in the context of removal proceedings.”
A problem exists when all the land of the Earth is being claimed by entities claiming rights to do so. Are all these claims valid ? Who says so ?
Gripping populations, who never offered valid authority to be bound, into these constructs called countries, leaves a lot to be desired despite the communicated advantages.
Today we discuss disposal of persons no one really wants.
Can't imagine how awful it must be to rely on Sotomayor to voice your opinion on a topic. At least half of that dissent is discussing matters wholly irrelevant to the case.
A moderately competent attorney would be humiliated to put their name on that mess.
Anyway, if her claim is that these people are likely to be tortured in Sudan, probably would have been a good idea to say why that is likely here. A vague reference to a State Department warning is so far beneath that threshold I have to assume she forgot to include a section in her donation req... er dissent. Just embarrassing on every level.
It's South Sudan, not Sudan.
Got banned on another account, huh? What'd you do? Bans here are pretty rare and seem to be used only for stuff like personally threatening a contributor or heavily spamming the comments.
Due Process addresses the decision whether to deport or not. But once due process lawfully permits deportation, that’s the end of the matter. Once the alien is lawfully outside the United States, there is no due process. It’s of no matter whether the alien is deported a foot or ten thousand miles outside. So there can be no due process right to have a say in where one is deported to.
Congress can create statutory rights in the matter. But there are no constitutional rights.
That is not correct. The president cannot circumvent 5th amendment rights by pushing people across the border and then denying them.
That’s why I said “LAWFULLY permits deportation” with emphasis on “lawfully.” If, after due process, they are determined to be lawfully deportable, due process has been satisfied. They can then be pushed over the border or flown ten thousand miles away, and due process doesn’t care which. Due process is only concerned with whether they are deportable or not.
ReaderY — To be sure I understand you, do you think any Constitutional process exists to put any detainee—citizen or not—into custody abroad, with the expectation the detainee will be lawlessly held and tortured? If so, what Constitutional power authorizes that?
Deportation does not apply to citizens at all.
For aliens, there are statutory rules that apply in many cases, including refugee status.
In addition, the Guantanamo Bay cases held that nominally non-US territory that is effectively entirely in the control of the US can at least in some instances be considered US territory for constitutional Due Process purposes.
But once a due process hearing is held and the alien found deportable, and once the alien goes to territory that is not even arguably US territory, the constitution (the bare constitution itself not considering statutes) does not concern itself with where the alien goes once outside the border.
I appreciate what you wrote above with your analogy to the rights of a fetus. It made me thing of the SCOTUS Gitmo decisions, about which I will comment here.
I do wonder whether the current Court, if given another opportunity with new facts (different federal statute or detainment scenario) might seriously chip away at Justice Kennedy's philosopher king decision in Boumediene v. Bush, a great example of judicial usurping.
It was one thing in Rasul v Bush for the Court to assert that extraterritorial US custody of an alien does not prevent a district court from hearing a habeas corpus petition. Fair enough. It's quite another, after having invited Congress to legislate, for the Court to still say (as it did in Boumediene) that the statutory regime was still insufficient. Despite there being an applicable AUMF in effect and the federal courts jurisdiction having been defined (and limited) by law.
As I read these cases, they start with a finding that the unique history and status of Guantanamo Bay make it US territory for habeas corpus and Due Process purposes. So while these cases are not one-offs, as they would apply to (for example) determining whether other places that have been in de facto permanent US control for some time despite being nominally under foreign suzerainty are or are not US territory for due process and haveas purposes, the decisions are not applicable to what happens outside US territory generally.
In short, no answer to my question, so no Constitutional power to do what you say.
Also, deportation applies to U.S. citizens every time one of them gets deported. Due process protects U.S. citizens from the arbitrary fate you seem to think justifiable.
It’s a nice tactic, isn’t it? You come up with endless straw troll positions that you know perfectly well have nothing to do with what the other guy said. Then, after a few denials immediately followed by new irrelevant straw positions, when the other guy tires of the game and decides it’s time to stop feeding the trolls, you immediately declare that the other guy indeed stands for the the straw position because he hasn’t bothered to answer.
Why so trollish today?
What I said was perfectly clear. Try reading it and responding to it. If the only way you can think to answer is to troll me with these straw positions, then it’s pretty clear you don’t have any legitimate or rational response to make.
I seem to recall a line from a SC decision along the lines of "the constitution is not a suicide pact" (with multiple attributions like Jefferson, Lincoln, and two SCOUS decisions). It is almost impossible to determine the total number of illegal aliens in the US with estimates ranging from twenty million to over fifty million. In any case even removing twenty million illegal aliens would be a Herculean task along the lines cleaning the Augean Stables unless the courts stop throwing up roadblocks.
"The constitution is not a suicide pact" is a quote from a Supreme Court dissent that argued that MAGA speakers could be censored to protect the public from violence.
And of course there are no estimates ranging from 20 million to 50 million. The estimates are around 12 million. The other numbers are just MAGA lies.
David you need to update your research. Both Jefferson and Lincoln while not using the phrase "suicide pact" expresses the idea that the constitutional protections of individual rights and limitations on government power must be balanced against the fundamental need for the survival and self-preservation of the state and its people. In other words, the Constitution shouldn't be interpreted so strictly that it leads to the destruction of the very nation it's designed to govern.
Justice Robert H. Jackson's coining the phrase "suicide pact" specifically entered the legal lexicon with Justice Jackson's dissent in Terminiello v. Chicago. His exact words were: "There is danger that, if the Court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact." If this is the dissent you are talking about it is from 1949 and only a moron would claim it has any relation to MAGA speakers.
The phrase was later echoed by Justice Arthur Goldberg in his majority opinion in Kennedy v. Mendoza-Martinez (1963). In this case, concerning the constitutionality of revoking citizenship for draft evasion, Goldberg stated, "While the Constitution protects against invasions of individual rights, it is not a suicide pact."
As for the number of illegal aliens your lower estimate still implies millions of hearings which is not realistic. What you call MAGA lies could be reversed by those on the opposite side and applied to the lower estimate as left wing lies. In any case all of them are only estimates and subject to error.
You FAILURE to address the main point of my OP that the lower courts throwing up roadblocks to deporting illegal aliens makes enforcing the laws impossible is telling. Both Jefferson and Lincoln recognized that a brief suspension of rights was necessary to protect America and more to the point got away with it.
Arthur Terminiello was a rabid antisemite who gave a speech blaming Jews for communism to rile up his audience against them. In other words, MAGA.
Arthur Terminiello sounds like your normal average Democrat these days. Fuck, you guys gave an anti-Semitic Communist the Dem candidacy for NYC mayor.
My favorite Voltaire quotation is "If you would speak with me first define your terms". Most folks would agree MAGA was coined by Trump in his 2016 run for prez. While both Reagan and Clinton did use some derivation of the term it was never associated with them like it was with Trump. Hitler was way more of an antisemite who blamed the Jews for communism (and actually did real damage to Jews, and lots of others as well) but only a moron would claim he was MAGA. While I would never try and tell anyone how to define terms I have no problem calling them ignorant morons if their definitions are as silly as your definition of MAGA.
I fully admit I was trolling when I wrote "MAGA." I considered writing "proto-MAGA," which would've been accurate, but I was annoyed at the trotting out of one of the two most pointless platitudes in constitutional discussion (the other being the "fire in a theater" trope. Neither one has any substantive content.)
Bunny495 — If due process makes an ill-chosen executive policy impossible, that does not example, "courts throwing up roadblocks."
More generally, in rare situations—none of them comparable to the present—your due-process-be-damned, results-first analytical style does enjoy precedential support. The onset of Civil War is one such. A pandemic contagion with capacity to kill a substantial fraction of everyone would be another.
Can you discern the difference between those examples and executive legal incapacity to deport on sight the foreign-born wives of US-citizen members of America's military services? Or even 20-year-resident non-criminal day laborers?
Aren't you conveniently ignoring Trump's massive, 49.8% majority MANDATE to violate the Constitution, just this teeny weeny little bit?
And the district court judge here is trying to rely on a dissent to proceed as if the reversal of his injunction by SCOTUS does not actually apply as the government thinks.
It's hilarious that you think more than 1 in 7 people living in the US are here illegally.
Trumps exaggerates when he says 20 million. It's probably less than that.
Give him a break! Trump cannot discern between what is true and what is not.
As to the treaties Justice Sotomayor cites, the Court has consistently said that treaties giving citizens of other countries rights vis-a-vis the United States are not self-executing; enforcement is presumed to be by diplomacy unless the treaty specifically say otherwise.
At one point I completely agreed with the concepts of being a libertarian and what that that meant.
However, with Ilya and other "Libertarian" writings, they have shown me that they are a party to ignore completely.
At one point I completely agreed with the concepts of being a libertarian and what that that meant.
Cool story, bro.
I disagree.
You just aren't a Somin Libertarian.
I too just want to be left alone, and I don't reflexively oppose the might of the government, in all its fury, to lay devestation on those that would intrude on my solitude
Almost no libertarians are Somin libertarians.
Libertarian anarchists agree with open borders, but Somin isn't remotely an anarchist.
And virtually all libertarian minarchists accept that enforceable borders are part of the minimum set of governmental powers, and just concentrate on freedom of exit.
…to keep out foreign armies and terrorists. Not ordinary people.
Correct, Somin thinks that being left alone by the government should also apply to any aliens. Not all libertarians think the political philosophy includes open borders.
Its the world is over as we know it
And I feel fine.
Yeah. Everything new. Let's get busy and add nation building in Iraq and Afghanistan back into the U.S. foreign policy agenda.
and where they have no connections or ability to support themselves, as, e.g., in the case of Asians and Latin Americans deported to places like South Sudan.
But, they should just come here and stay here even if they didn't come legally, or remain illegally? Another brilliant take from Open Borders Somin.
Somin: Seek mental health treatment. See if you can get an appointment for David Nieporent, too.
Your poor pillow must be a sponge right now.
My solution to the tens of millions of illegal aliens here:
1. No one here illegally may become a citizen. Only those who follow the rules and apply for citizenship are eligible. That will require an illegal alien to return to their home country, and apply to obtain residency in the US.
2. The national census will count the number of people here illegally, and this number will not be included in proportioning seats in the House.
3. Those here illegally and self-identify as such will be allowed to stay here legally provided they are law-abiding, self-supporting, and pay a substantial fine for disobeying our immigration laws.
4. Their children born in the US are full US citizens.
5. Trafficking people into the US is to be considered an act of invasion, and subject to military countermeasures.
Amnesty, righteous census undercounting, birth-right citizenship, Trump's vocabulary--a little something for everyone!
(Btw, your 1. and 3. are a bit contradictory.)
They're not contradictory because he's doing something most anti-immigration types don't do: distinguish between immigration and naturalization. He's saying they can stay but not become citizens.
IS; DR
It is kind of insane that our federal government is tasked to monitor and enforce immigration for a population almost as large as the entire European continent.
If we are going to have a debate in good faith, it would help to stop lying about "without due process". The migrants are getting due process. Their identities are verified, and then their immigration status is verified. That is the due process to prevent US citizens or someone here legally from accidentally being deported. Deportation is an administrative action, not a judicial punishment, so due process does not need to involve a judge. If Ilya Somin and justice Sotomayor had their way, each one of the tens of millions of migrants in this country would get a judge, jury, and a government appointed attorney which would effectively shut down the process. The goal is to throw up so many roadblocks that no one can be deported.
All of them have "reasonable notice". Other than maybe a few of the DACA cases where they arrived very young, is there a single illegal immigrant who can honestly claim they didn't know they aren't here legally? Definitely none of the migrants who have previously been convicted of crimes could possibly not know. And in each case they have had years to file asylum claims and have their "opportunity to be heard" (99% of the asylum claims are bogus, but that's another subject).
This is also a clash of academic legal theory vs practical reality on the ground. The real world problem is, what do you do with criminal migrants who have served their sentences when their home countries refuse to take them back? My solution would be to force them to take the migrants back, by military force if necessary. But I have a feeling Prof Somin wouldn't support that either.
You do not understand what this case is about. It's not about whether people can be deported. It's about whether they can be deported to a random country somewhere on the globe where they might be tortured — without even the opportunity to show that they might be tortured.
You are missing the forest for the trees. It's about differing views over due process.
BTW, they "might" be tortured anywhere, including the United States. After all, this is a white supremacist country led by a fascist that routinely beats down people of color, right?
“It's about differing views over due process.”
This is a uselessly general take that provides nothing to discuss.
It's "Justice Stevens," not "Justice Stephens."
I know I'm a typo machine, so not really one to talk, but it wasn't just once. The typo was used multiple times.
As to this:
As to the treaties Justice Sotomayor cites, the Court has consistently said that treaties giving citizens of other countries rights vis-a-vis the United States are not self-executing; enforcement is presumed to be by diplomacy unless the treaty specifically say otherwise.
Since her dissent is cited, perhaps this part can be cited too:
The United States is a party to the Convention, and in 1998 Congress passed the Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act to implement its commands.
There is also this bit. It is argued that non-citizens legally deported don't have due process rights abroad.* "So there can be no due process right to have a say in where one is deported to."
A person doesn't have due process rights while on U.S. soil because they don't have due process rights while not on it?
==
* I'm not sure how absolutely true this is as a rule. Citizens also interests that can be applied to address treatment of non-citizens abroad. The Constitution overall limits what the government can do, including outside the country. Congress doesn't have the power to establish a religion in China.
Just more coping and seething from Illya Somin that the US won't let in infinite immigrants.
Are you in this country illegally and worried about being deported to a poverty-stricken, violent country, ruled by an oppressive government, where you have no contacts and don't speak the local language?
Here's an idea: leave of your own accord to a country that is not a poverty-stricken, violent country, ruled by an oppressive government, where you have no contacts and don't speak the local language.