The Volokh Conspiracy
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Draft Amicus Brief in Chiles v. Salazar, the Professional Speech / Minor Conversion Therapy Case
I've written an amicus brief on my own behalf in this case (here's the PDF version). I'll be filing it tomorrow, but I thought I'd preview it here, in case there are some corrections or criticisms that I should take into account. Please let me know if you have anything to suggest (though please recall that the brief is aimed at fitting the case within the existing Supreme Court precedents, and not arguing to the Court how existing precedents should be overruled or modified).
Interest of the Amicus Curiae
Eugene Volokh is the Thomas M. Siebel Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. He is one of the few professors to have written on the speech integral to illegal conduct exception to the First Amendment, on which the decision below relied in part, Pet. App. 49a-50a. In particular, he is the author of The "Speech Integral to Criminal Conduct" Exception, 101 Cornell L. Rev. 981 (2016); Overbroad Injunctions Against Speech (Especially in Libel and Harassment Cases), 44 Harv. J.L. & Pub. Pol'y 147 (2022); One-to-One Speech vs. One-to-Many Speech, Criminal Harassment Laws, and "Cyberstalking," 107 Nw. U. L. Rev. 731 (2013); and over 50 other law review articles on the First Amendment, as well as a First Amendment casebook.
Amicus hopes that this brief can help explain the proper boundaries of the speech integral to illegal conduct exception, and can show that this Court—unlike the court below—should not rely on that exception in this case.
Summary of Argument
[1.] Amicus takes no position on what First Amendment test this Court should articulate for restrictions on professional-client speech. But this Court should not apply the speech integral to illegal conduct exception to formulate such a test, or to resolve this case.
Speech cannot lose its protection just because it is relabeled conduct and then banned. Indeed, this Court has consistently recognized that making "conduct" illegal or tortious abridges free speech when the conduct consists of speech that supposedly causes harm because of what it communicates.
Rather, the "speech integral to illegal conduct" exception properly applies to speech that sufficiently risks causing or threatening some other nonspeech crime or tort: It is that relationship that makes speech "integral" to the criminal or tortious conduct.
The illegal conduct can consist of physical nonspeech behavior. It can consist of speech that is independently constitutionally unprotected under some other exception. And it can consist of an agreement, which is treated as analogous to physical conduct. But it is not enough that the speech itself be labeled illegal conduct, such as "contempt of court," "breach of the peace," "sedition," "use of illegally gathered information," "treatment," or "professional advice."
[2.] The Tenth Circuit thus erred in relying (Pet. App. 49a-50a) on the speech integral to conduct exception and on the case that first enunciated it, Giboney v. Empire Storage & Ice Co., 336 U.S. 490 (1949). It is a mistake to say that the Colorado law "incidentally involves speech." Pet. App. 50a. Rather, the Colorado ban on conversion therapy, when applied to therapy that involves purely speech (as opposed to, say, the administration of medicines), targets speech precisely because of what it communicates.
In such cases, there is only speech—and no other illegal conduct. When psychotherapists counsel patients about how to accept their biological sex or how to avoid same-sex attraction, the psychotherapist is not promoting or threatening any separate crime or tort.
[I.] The speech integral to illegal conduct exception only applies to speech that promotes some other crime or tort
[A.] Speech cannot be restricted as "integral to illegal conduct" simply by classifying it as conduct
The First Amendment protects speech against many laws that make such speech illegal. Governments cannot evade that protection using laws that reclassify speech as conduct. To "classify some communications as 'speech' and others as 'conduct' is to engage in nothing more than a 'labeling game.' … Simply put, speech is speech, and it must be analyzed as such for purposes of the First Amendment." King v. Governor of N.J., 767 F.3d 216, 228 (3d Cir. 2014) (citation omitted) (concluding that restrictions on conversion therapy cannot be justified by the argument that therapy, even purely verbal therapy, is conduct). If the "'only "conduct" which the State [seeks] to punish'" is "'the fact of communication,'" the statute regulates speech, not conduct. Otto v. City of Boca Raton, 981 F.3d 854, 866 (11th Cir. 2020) (citation omitted) (likewise).
Indeed, "[s]aying that restrictions on writing and speaking are merely incidental to speech is like saying limitations on walking and running are merely incidental to ambulation." Wollschlaeger v. Governor of Fla., 848 F.3d 1293, 1308 (11th Cir. 2017) (en banc) (invalidating a law that restricted doctors' conversations with patients about gun possession). Adopting this "circular" reclassification argument would enable governments to ban virtually any speech. Matter of Welfare of A.J.B., 929 N.W.2d 840, 859 (Minn. 2019) (striking down a stalking law, as applied to speech, and rejecting argument that it merely regulated conduct). The speech integral to illegal conduct exception does not validate such circular reasoning.
[B.] "Speech integral to illegal conduct" must refer to speech that promotes or threatens other illegal conduct
Rather, the word "integral," as used in the cases that apply the speech integral to illegal conduct exception, must be seen as referring to speech being connected to some other crime. "[T]he cases that involve this form of unprotected speech involve speech that furthers some other activity that is a crime." State v. Doyal, 589 S.W.3d 136, 143 (Tex. Crim. App. 2019). "[F]or the exception to apply, the speech must be integral to some conduct or scheme that is illegal in nature and independent of the speech that might be used to facilitate or accomplish the conduct or scheme." People v. Burkman, 15 N.W. 3d 216, 236 (Mich. 2024) (emphasis added); see also State v. Shackelford, 825 S.E.2d 689, 698-99 (N.C. Ct. App. 2019) (same). The exception cannot justify banning speech simply because the speech is illegal under the law that is being challenged, because then there is no other crime to which the speech is integral.
The progenitor of the speech integral to illegal conduct exception, Giboney, 336 U.S. 490, well illustrates how speech can lose constitutional protection by promoting some other illegal act. There, Empire Storage & Ice refused to join an unlawful cartel, and a "union thereupon informed Empire that it would use other means at its disposal to force Empire to come around to [its] view." Id. at 492. When "Empire still refused to agree," "[i]ts place of business was promptly picketed by union members." Id.
The Government could prohibit the union's picketing, this Court held, because the picketing essentially solicited a separate criminal act by Empire: The picketers' "sole, unlawful immediate objective was to induce Empire to violate the Missouri law" forbidding agreements in restraint of trade "by acquiescing in unlawful demands to agree not to sell ice to nonunion peddlers." Id. at 502. The speech integral to illegal conduct exception, however, would not have condoned prosecuting mere picketing, in the absence of some other crime that the picketing solicited.
Likewise, many courts considering bans on harassment or stalking have recognized the same principle. Those statutes generally make it a crime to communicate with the intent to "abuse," "annoy," "harass," "offend," or "severe[ly] emotional[ly] distress" a particular person. Volokh, One-to-One Speech vs. One-to-Many Speech, Criminal Harassment Laws, and "Cyber Stalking," supra, 107 Nw. U. L. Rev. at 740, 768-69. Because such laws are not limited to speech "'proximate[ly] link[ed]'" to "some other criminal act," they amount to "a direct limitation on speech that does not require any relationship—integral or otherwise—to unlawful conduct." People v. Relerford, 104 N.E.3d 341, 352 (Ill. 2017).
Similarly, in Matter of Welfare of A.J.B., the Minnesota Supreme Court rejected the Government's argument that a stalking by mail statute was valid under the "speech integral to [illegal] conduct" exception. 929 N.W.2d at 852, 859. There, the statute was unconstitutional because it was not limited to speech aimed "to induce or commence a separate crime." Id. at 852. The court recognized that the exception did not apply because "the speech covered by the statute is integral to [illegal] conduct because the statute itself makes the conduct illegal." Id. at 859; see also Doyal, 589 S.W.3d at 143 (the exception only covers "speech that furthers some other activity that is a crime"); State v. Burkert, 174 A.3d 987, 1000 (N.J. 2017) (harassment "cannot be transformed into [illegal] conduct" based on "[t]he circularity of the language of [a statute]"); People v. Marquan M., 19 N.E.3d 480, 484-86 (N.Y. 2014) (same for "cyberbullying").
Of course, legislatures are free to punish nonspeech stalking conduct, as well as narrow categories of constitutionally unprotected speech, such as true threats. But they cannot label speech that mentally distresses people "stalking" and then punish all such speech as integral to illegal conduct. Speech that is intended to annoy, offend, or distress does not help cause or threaten other illegal acts. And the same is true for labeling speech that allegedly psychologically harms clients as "counseling conduct" or "treatment[]." Pet. App. 50a.
To be sure, some courts have mistakenly concluded that the speech integral to illegal conduct exception applies to speech itself that is made illegal. In Commonwealth v. Johnson, 21 N.E.3d 937 (Mass. 2014), for example, the court supposed that a criminal harassment statute could be applied to online speech because "cyber harassment will consistently involve a hybrid of speech and conduct." Id. at 947 n.11. "There is content within the communications" involved in the case, the court admitted, "but the very act of using the Internet as a medium through which to communicate implicates conduct." Id.; see also United States v. Orsinger, 753 F.3d 939, 942, 944 (9th Cir. 2014) (likewise); United States v. Gonzalez, 905 F.3d 165, 193 (3d Cir. 2018) (likewise).
But if "the very act of using the Internet" "implicates conduct" and thus triggers lower protection, then a newspaper article likewise "implicates conduct" in the sense that a printing press has to put ink on paper. If such speech is "conduct," it is only conduct in the trivial sense that all speech is also conduct. The Johnson court erred in concluding that the speech integral to illegal conduct exception applied—there was no other act besides the challenged speech.
[C.] The exception is a basis for several canonical First Amendment exceptions that also require separate illegal acts
This Court has cited Giboney to help explain why several categories of speech receive no constitutional protection. In the process, this Court has narrowly and carefully defined those traditional exceptions to ensure they cover only unprotected speech: Not all speech that does tend to indirectly promote crime is constitutionally unprotected. See Volokh, The "Speech Integral to Criminal Conduct" Exception, supra, 101 Cornell L. Rev. at 993-97, 998-99, 1000-03, 1005-07, 1008-10. But in any event, this Court has limited those Giboney-linked exceptions to speech that sufficiently risks causing or threatening a nonspeech crime or tort.
[1.] Fighting words are a special case of the Giboney principle. Giboney cited Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568 (1942), this Court's seminal fighting words case, to support Giboney's articulation of the speech incident to illegal conduct exception. 336 U.S. at 502; see also Cox v. Louisiana, 379 U.S. 559, 563 (1965) (citing Chaplinsky and Giboney as examples where "conduct mixed with speech may be regulated or prohibited"). And this makes sense: Giboney applies to fighting words because fighting words tend to cause other criminal conduct (retaliatory violence).
[2.] The Giboney rule is also linked to the true threat exception. Giboney relied on two cases that discussed the threats doctrine in concluding speech "used as an essential and inseparable part of a grave offense against an important public law" may be restricted. 336 U.S. at 590(citing Thomas v. Collins, 323 U.S. 516, 537-38 (1945); Va. Elec. & Power Co. v. NLRB, 319 U.S. 533, 539, 549 (1943)). In turn, Giboney has been cited for the proposition that threats are constitutionally unprotected. See, e.g., Ohralik v. Ohio State Bar Ass'n., 436 U.S. 447, 456 (1978) (citing NLRB v. Gissel Packing Co., 395 U.S. 575 (1969)).
Rumsfeld v. FAIR, 547 U.S. 47 (2006), offers a concrete example of why threats can be integral to illegal conduct. "The fact that" bans on racial discrimination in hiring "will require an employer to take down a sign reading 'White Applicants Only' hardly means that the law should be analyzed as one regulating the employer's speech rather than conduct." Id. at 62.
The sign "White Applicants Only" is a threat of tortious conduct (illegal discrimination). Someone who is not white and sees the sign will know that, if he applies for the job, he will get nothing except a humiliating rejection. As a result, he will not apply. Threatening potential applicants with unlawful exclusion from consideration for a job is unprotected speech, because it is a threat of a separate tortious act: illegal discrimination.
[3.] Criminal solicitation is another proper application of Giboney. In United States v. Williams, 553 U.S. 285 (2008), this Court cited Giboney for the proposition that "[o]ffers to engage in illegal transactions are categorically excluded from First Amendment protection." Id. at 297. This Court explained that such speech is closely connected to illegal conduct because "offers to provide" contraband solicit listeners to commit unlawful receipt of contraband, and "requests to obtain contraband," solicit listeners to commit unlawful distribution of contraband. Id. And this Court listed "solicitation" of crime alongside offers of contraband as covered by the Giboney principle. Id. at 297-98. United States v. Hansen, 599 U.S. 762 (2023), likewise cited Giboney as support for the proposition that "[s]peech intended to bring about a particular unlawful act"—especially including solicitation—is generally constitutionally unprotected. Id. at 783.
[4.] The child pornography exception is another prominent application of Giboney. This Court cited Giboney to explain that child pornography is unprotected because its production and distribution is illegal. "The market for child pornography was 'intrinsically related' to the underlying abuse, and was therefore 'an integral part of the production of such materials, an activity illegal throughout the Nation.'" United States v. Stevens, 559 U.S. 460, 471 (2010) (quoting reasoning from New York v. Ferber, 458 U.S. 747, 761-62 (1982), which Ferber in turn quoted from Giboney). The existence of a market for child pornography helps cause the production of more child pornography (and thus the abuse of more children). And this other crime does not itself consist of protected speech.
[5.] Giboney is also a basis for laws that ban conspiracies to engage in illegal conduct, such as conspiracies to restrain trade. See Sorrell v. IMS Health Inc., 564 U.S. 552, 567 (2011) (citing Giboney for the proposition that antitrust law can constitutionally prohibit "agreements in restraint of trade"); Ohralik, 436 U.S. at 456 (1978) (same). Such conspiracies fit neatly within the speech integral to illegal conduct exception, because they tend to cause a distinct, nonspeech crime.
[6.] And Giboney is also a basis for laws that may be applied to conduct that has "incidental" effects on speech that are independent to its communicative impact. In Sorrell, this Court suggested that when "an ordinance against outdoor fires" is applied to "burning a flag," that application is valid for reasons related to the Giboney rationale. 564 U.S. at 567. "[B]urning a flag" was affected "incidental[ly]," in the sense that the ordinance applied to such speech without regard to the supposed harms that flowed from its communicative content. Id. Indeed, the language of "incidental" restrictions on speech was used in United States v. O'Brien, 391 U.S. 367 (1968), the precedent that would normally be applied to restrictions on outdoor fires. Id. at 376-77. Sorrell's explanation of "incidental" fits well with Giboney's statement that the First Amendment generally does not protect "speech or writing used as an integral part of conduct in violation of a valid criminal statute," 336 U.S. at 498—which is to say in violation of a criminal statute (such as an ordinance against outdoor fires) that targets nonspeech conduct.
Rumsfeld provides another example of a law that has "incidental" effects on speech. Rumsfeld cited Giboney in holding that a law requiring universities to treat military recruiters on par with other recruiters could constitutionally be applied to the universities' sending out announcements about where the recruiters were going to be. 547 U.S. at 61-62. The equal treatment provision applied to equal distribution of speech as well as, for instance, equal provision of space. Id. at 70. As in Sorrell, the law affected speech "incidentally" in Rumsfeld because it applied to the speech without regard to its communicative impact.
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The speech integral to illegal conduct exception has helped this Court develop rules allowing restrictions on some narrow categories of speech in some situations where that speech may cause other unlawful (criminal or tortious) conduct. It does not authorize speech restrictions that are justified simply by labeling the speech itself as forbidden conduct.
[D.] Even general restrictions on conduct are treated as speech restrictions when they target speech because of what it communicates
Some laws ban broad range of conduct, but in the process cover some speech precisely because of what the speech communicates. In those situations, the laws are treated as speech restrictions, and the speech integral to illegal conduct exception does not justify them.
[1.] Consider, for example, breach of the peace. Cohen v. California involved a defendant who was prosecuted for breach of the peace because he wore a shirt with an expletive in a courthouse. 403 U.S. 15, 16-17 (1971). This Court reversed: Because "[t]he only 'conduct' which the State sought to punish is the fact of communication," this Court held, "we deal here with a conviction resting solely upon 'speech.'" Id. at 18. The conduct regulation "rested solely upon speech," that is, on "the fact of communication." Id. And the Court reasoned this way even though other defendants could breach the peace through many other kinds of conduct that did not involve speech. Id. at 16 & n.1.
Nor would the speech integral to illegal conduct have justified a different result. Before and after Giboney, this Court invalidated generally applicable breach-of-the peace laws when those laws were applied to speech based on "the effect of [the speaker's] communication on his hearers." Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U.S. 296, 309 (1940); see also Edwards v. South Carolina, 372 U.S. 229, 234-37 (1963); Hess v. Indiana, 414 U.S. 105, 105 n.1, 107-09 (1973).
[2.] Like breach-of-peace law, contempt-of-court law prohibits a wide range of conduct, speech or otherwise. Yet by the time this Court decided Giboney, it had already held that facially valid contempt-of-court rules might be unconstitutional as applied to out-of-court speech because of what it communicates. Bridges v. California, 314 U.S. 252, 258, 278 (1941). And this Court set aside convictions for statutory contempt of court under the First Amendment, both before and after Giboney. See, e.g., Pennekamp v. Florida, 328 U.S. 331, 333, 349-50 (1946); Craig v. Harney, 331 U.S. 367, 368, 378 (1947); Wood v. Georgia, 370 U.S. 375, 395 (1962).
[3.] Or take the intentional infliction of emotional distress tort, which covers, among other things, a wide range of conduct and constitutionally unprotected speech (such as threats, State Rubbish Collectors Ass'n v. Siliznoff, 240 P.2d 282 (Cal. 1952)). Yet in Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell, 485 U.S. 46 (1988), and Snyder v. Phelps, 562 U.S. 443 (2011), this Court set aside intentional infliction of emotional distress verdicts when those verdicts were based on constitutionally protected speech that caused distress due to its message. To be sure, this Court has left open the possibility that speech that is not "of public concern" and that outrageously inflicts severe emotional distress may be actionable. Snyder, 562 U.S. at 451-52. But this was not based on any general conclusion that a facially speech-neutral tort could be freely applied to speech as well as conduct.
[4.] Likewise, the tort of interference with business relations—another facially valid tort that covers a wide range of conduct—is subject to serious First Amendment scrutiny when it is applied to speech because of what it communicates. In NAACP v. Claiborne Hardware Co., 458 U.S. 886 (1982), this Court held that the First Amendment barred applying the tort to speech that interfered with business relations by urging a political boycott: "[T]he presence of activity protected by the First Amendment imposes restraints on the grounds that may give rise to damages liability." Id. at 912-13, 916-17.
[5.] Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project, 561 U.S. 1 (2010), also considered a statute triggered by the communicative content of speech as a speech restriction. The statute in Holder prohibited providing "material support" to foreign terrorist organizations. Id. at 26. The statute covered conduct, such as the provision of money or goods, and speech, such as "training on the use of international law or advice on petitioning the United Nations." Id. at 27.
The Government argued that the law was therefore a speech-neutral conduct restriction that only incidentally burdened speech—even when the law was triggered by the communicative content of certain speech (such as training or advice). Id. at 27-28. Under this theory, there would be no need to conclude that the speech constitutes punishable solicitation of some other crime (or threat, conspiracy, or aiding and abetting). So long as the speech fits the elements of the facially speech-neutral material support statute, it can be punished.
Holder rejected that argument. Like Cohen, this Court explained, Holder "involved a generally applicable regulation of conduct." Id. at 28. But Cohen "recognized that the generally applicable law was directed at Cohen because of what his speech communicated—he violated the breach of the peace statute because of the offensive content of his particular message." Id. Thus, this Court "applied more rigorous scrutiny," and "did not apply O'Brien," the test applicable to conduct restrictions that incidentally burden speech. Id. Rather, strict scrutiny had to be applied to the material support ban where the speech constitutes material support "because of what [the] speech communicated." Id.
This Court did not have occasion in Holder to expressly decide whether the speech integral to illegal conduct exception would render the plaintiffs' speech unprotected. The Government had briefly argued that the Humanitarian Law Project's speech was unprotected because it was "coordinated with foreign terrorist organizations" and was similar to "speech effecting a crime, like the words that constitute a conspiracy." Id. at 27 n.5. The Court cited Giboney as a "See, e.g.," following this statement, but then declined to "consider any such argument because the Government does not develop it." Id. Still, consistent with Cohen, Holder's reasoning does reject the more general claim that speech can be punished whenever it violates a generally applicable conduct restriction.
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The logic of the examples above applies equally to restrictions on professional-client conduct: Even when those restrictions apply to nonspeech conduct (e.g., administering medicine) as well as to speech, they must be treated as speech restrictions when they are applied to speech because of its communicative impact.
[II.] The speech integral to illegal conduct exception does not explain what restrictions on professional speech are permissible
How much First Amendment protection professional-client speech should receive is a difficult and important question this Court should answer. Amicus takes no position on this question. But the speech integral to illegal conduct exception does not help answer this question, and it would be a mistake for this Court to apply the exception here.
The Tenth Circuit held that Colorado's statute was constitutional in part because of the speech integral to conduct exception:
"[I]t has never been deemed an abridgement of freedom of speech … to make a course of conduct illegal merely because the conduct was in part initiated, evidenced, or carried out by means of language, either spoken, written, or printed." Giboney v. Empire Storage & Ice Co., 336 U.S. 490, 502 (1949). The MCTL incidentally involves speech because an aspect of the counseling conduct, by its nature, necessarily involves speech. By regulating which treatments Ms. Chiles may perform in her role as a licensed professional counselor, Colorado is not restricting Ms. Chiles's freedom of expression. In other words, Ms. Chiles's First Amendment right to freedom of speech is implicated under the MCTL, but it is not abridged.
Pet. App. 49a-50a. The Tenth Circuit was mistaken, for the reasons discussed in Part I. That court's reasoning would allow any government to eliminate the First Amendment's protections by creating a category (say, "counseling conduct") that includes conduct and declare that any regulation of speech within the category is a conduct restriction. But "'[m]ere labels' of state law" do not confer "talismanic immunity from constitutional limitations"—whether the labels are "insurrection, contempt, advocacy of unlawful acts, breach of the peace, obscenity, solicitation of legal business," N.Y. Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254, 269 (1964), or "professional conduct" or "therapy." Pet. App. 47a-48a. Restrictions on speech, this Court explained, "must be measured by standards that satisfy the First Amendment," regardless of how the speech is labeled. N.Y. Times, 376 U.S. at 269.
Thus, whatever rule the Court adopts for professional-client speech, it should not craft it based on Giboney and on the speech integral to illegal conduct exception. The exception is triggered, as Part I explained, only when the speech tends to cause or threaten other illegal conduct, not when the only illegality is that the speech violates the challenged law itself.
The exception thus is not applicable here. When a psychotherapist counsels a patient about how the patient can "grow in the experience of harmony with [the patient's] physical body," the psychotherapist is not promoting or threatening any separate crime or tort. Pet. App. 12a-14a. Petitioner's "speech is not just one step in service of some separately illegal act, unlike the speech involved in soliciting a crime, demanding ransom, or posting a 'White applicants only' sign as part of hiring discrimination." Veterans Guardian VA Claim Consulting LLC v. Platkin, 133 F.4th 213, 221 (3d Cir. 2025). Rather, petitioner is conveying advice, or teaching a patient how to avoid some legal behavior and to engage in other legal behavior instead, Pet. App. 12a-14a—and advice and teaching are classic examples of speech. Petitioner's "speech is the core of what [she] does." Veterans Guardian, 133 F.4th at 221. She may be speaking during an extended set of conversations (a "course of conduct" in that sense of the phrase), but that does not make the speech regulable.
The Tenth Circuit was thus mistaken to rely on Giboney for the conclusion that Colorado's law "incidentally involves speech because an aspect of the counseling conduct, by its nature, necessarily involves speech." Pet. App. 50a. "What Cohen and Holder teach is that a regulation that bars speech because of what it communicates is a direct regulation of speech, not a regulation of conduct that incidentally affects speech." Id. at 99a (Hartz, J., dissenting).
To be sure, some restrictions on some professional-client speech may indeed focus on speech closely related to nonspeech conduct. For instance, as Nat'l Inst. of Fam. & Life Advocs. v. Becerra, 585 U.S. 755, 768 (2018) (NIFLA), makes clear, when a doctor seeks to perform "an operation" (such as abortion), "the requirement that a doctor obtain informed consent to perform an operation is 'firmly entrenched in American tort law.'" Id. at 770 (citation omitted). Such a requirement is a classic example of a regulation of "professional conduct, even though that conduct incidentally involves speech," id. at 768: The underlying regulation is of the nonspeech physical procedure, and the compelled speech is just what is necessary to obtain informed consent for the physical procedure.
By contrast, the challenged statute in NIFLA was viewed as an impermissible speech compulsion, because it was not closely tied to physical conduct other than speech. In NIFLA, pregnancy centers were required to inform patients about the availability of low-cost abortions. Id. at 762-66. The law was "not tied to a procedure at all" and "applie[d] to all interactions between a covered facility and its clients, regardless of whether a medical procedure is ever sought, offered, or performed." Id. at 770. The statute in NIFLA thus could not be sustained as "an informed-consent requirement or any other regulation of professional conduct." Id. Indeed, the NIFLA law applied even when a clinic would merely "offer[] counseling about[] contraception or contraceptive methods," or "pregnancy options counseling," rather than any medical procedure. Id. at 777.
To be sure, women who go to pregnancy counseling centers are likely contemplating some future medical procedure, whether an ultrasound, an eventual delivery of a child, or an eventual abortion. Id. at 779 (Breyer, J., dissenting). But the majority's view appeared to be that speech compulsions are allowed only when they discuss the particular procedure that the speaker was planning to perform, or alternatives to that procedure. Id. at 770.
NIFLA also suggested there may be other zones of permissible restriction on professional-client speech. That is particularly true as to professionals' commercial advertising: "[L]aws that require professionals to disclose factual, noncontroversial information in their commercial speech" get "less protection." Id. at 768. And it may also be true when there is "'persuasive evidence of a long (if heretofore unrecognized) tradition to that effect.'" Id. at 767 (citation omitted). Some widespread professional speech regulations, such as licensing requirements and compelled disclosures protections, could conceivably qualify. Volokh, The "Speech Integral to Criminal Conduct" Exception, supra, 101 Cornell L. Rev. at 1043 nn.331-33 (providing examples of typical state regulations in these areas).
But in any event, whatever professional-client speech doctrine this Court chooses to adopt, it should not rely on Giboney or conclude that professional-client speech may be regulated simply by labeling it counseling conduct.
The speech integral to illegal conduct exception does not apply to this case because the exception only covers speech closely tied to a separate crime or tort. Laws like Colorado's, which reclassify certain speech as conduct and then ban it, do not qualify. There is no other crime here. "Professional services delivered by speaking or writing are speech." Veterans Guardian, 133 F.4th at 229.
Amicus does not take a position on what sorts of restrictions on professional speech are permissible. But the explanation for any broad lack of protection must come from something other than a "conduct, not speech" argument—just as the explanation for exceptions such as defamation comes from something other than labeling the speech "conduct." N.Y. Times, 376 U.S. at 269.
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Conversation therapy is pretty much junk/crap science
Though not nearly as bad as gender affirming care
Once the ACA removed the ban on Medicare/Medicade supporting affirming care the industry saw it as an incredible means to profit both in the short term and long term.
provide proper mental health treatment and they have the potential to eventually grow out of their mental illness and resume a normal life.
Provide gender affirming care and medical and mental health profession has a patient for life.
I use the example of Anorexia, and no one would ever affirm her belief that she was fat. OTOH, it's her body, and do we have the right to violate it for her own good? Isn't that a form of rape?
YOu misuse words all the time !!!
No, it is not a form of rape, you insensitive creep.
I don't think the goal of mental health treatment is to "grow out of their mental illness and resume a normal life", at least today.
The goal is to resume a healthy life, but that could involve lifelong medications or reasonable accommodations.
J Student - we are on the same page - at least in the case for the proper treatment of most every mental illness. However, the advocates for "gender affirming care" are behaving quite the opposite.
Many have a transient homosexual tendency phase. That's just a fact. To treat a perverted impulse as the flowering of your inner self, now that is perversion.
I once wanted to be an architect, a lead guitarist, a scientist. You grow out of these things IF IF IF you continue to grow up. Sexual perversion has only this difference: Your dabbling or confusion will often meet with a true psycho deviant and BANG!! your life is ruined
That is a variation of the point I was making - treatment to cure or control the mental illness vs permamently FU'ing the lives. The advocates embrace the later in the name of compassion or respect.
Both irrelevant to the article
People get helped by junk things
True but irrelevant. Just because it's junk doesn't mean you can simply declare it illegal.
"It" has no referent. There are many approaches to dealing with a transient aberration. What law can't do is say to the person not wanting to live gay for personal or religious or other reasons :No, now that you have declared yourself , you are legally in this camp forever.
Forced conversion therapy is child abuse. It does not work and leads to increased depression and suicidal thoughts.
.neither does gender affirming care
Molly, CBT causes dead sectors in the hard drive -- I can always tell if someone has had CBT because there is a hole in their soul, it's like a dead sector in a drive that you can tell is there, but that they can function with.
Or maybe not over time.
Actually the studies say that conversion therapy is not any worse than the other psychotherapies in common use.
Like I said, "hole in their souls."
It took me a while to realize what I was seeing, it was similar to stroke damage but very specific in a way that stroke damage isn't, and then in cases where I knew what the person had been sent to the voodoo scientists for (because I was a janitor), I put two and two together.
That's a nice authoritative statement, Roger. But it's bullshit.
Can you cite some of these studies? Because I suspect they are bigger piles than even your comments.
Just look at what the advocates of those bans say. They complain that the therapy does not work, but cannot cite a study saying that the therapy is worse than any other.
At least 50% of psych research in general is bogus -- my guess is that ALL of this is bullshit.
Here in Red Sox Nation, we can produce research that shows that the Yankees Suck -- not sure how valid it would be but we can produce it. And the LGBTQ+++ activists likewise can produce their research by similar means.
Now when advocates of the therapy show that placebo has an equal effect, that I will pay attention to.
So you can't actually cite some of these studies you refer to.
Unsurprising.
Conversion therapy: an evidence assessment and qualitative study
"There is an increasing amount of quantitative evidence that exposure to conversion therapy is statistically associated with poor mental health outcomes including suicidal thoughts and suicide attempts. This body of evidence is larger for sexual orientation change efforts. However, one recent study has also found that gender identity change efforts are associated with similar negative health outcomes."
I doubt you can actually change most people's sexual identities, (Though I'd be surprised if you couldn't change at least some of them.) but you can't change people's sexes, either, and that's permitted to be done despite major negative health outcomes and little to no evidence of reduction in mental pathology.
Seems grossly unfair to prohibit one quack treatment, and allow the other.
Brett Bellmore 47 minutes ago
" Seems grossly unfair to prohibit one quack treatment, and allow the other."
Especially one the cause permament damage -
But that’s not all. A more rigorous treatment of the data showed that:
“adults who underwent SOCE therapy after initial expressions of suicidal behavior also experienced sizable reductions in the risk of a subsequent suicide attempt.”
In short, gay conversion therapy doesn’t cause suicide and it could even decrease the risk of suicide.
TONS OF STORIES AND DATA AT RUTH INSTITUTE
Telling boys that they're girls, and vice versa, is child abuse. As is chemical castration and mutilating kids' genitals and breasts
Okay but that kind of statement would get you thrown out of a refereed debate. 'Forced" is not at issue
In the main, Eugene argues that regulations of speech targeted at what the speech conveys cannot be regulations that incidentally burden speech. But as Eugene pointed out, NIFLA said compelled informed consent for abortions are permissible even though the compulsion is based on what the speech conveys.
He explains this exception as being a regulation of nonspeech conduct where the regulated speech is not part of the conduct. In contrast, speech in conversion therapy is part of the conduct being banned. That might fly as the doctrine for a permissible incidental regulation even though it is targeted the content of speech.
But, it might also be the case the state can think a procedure is a sham whether or not it involves speech, and successfully argue that suffices to bring it under a permissible incidental regulation even though it is targeted at the content of speech.
Your last paragraph is riddled with problems
1) A sham procedure is no business of government. For YOU to distinguish this from dousing, astrology, or scientology would be impossible.
2) How can you allow homosexual perversion and say that a patient that wants to meet with that gender specialist CANNOT
3) And I quote from an Amicus Curiae : "if the
court sees the speech as of low or even negative value, it
discounts the harm done. That is a moral claim"
Two points.
1. There's a difference between positive and negative speech requirement. IE, between being forced to say something and being banned from saying something. Positive speech requirements promote information and can always be hedged, disapproved of, etc. ie "The state requires me to give you this form, but I don't think it's a good idea in your case." No such capability exists for negative speech regulation, and it acts to limit information.
To give an example, take California Prop 65. This makes California businesses put carcinogenic warnings on just about everything. Positive speech regulation. People ignore most of it. Now imagine if it was the opposite, where such warnings were banned. Items that were actually bad wouldn't be able to be talked about.
2. "But, it might also be the case the state can think a procedure is a sham "
It's up for the individual to decide here. The "state" has decided many things in the past, typically to advance the interests of the state. Banning information transfer about the item is a dangerous power.
Although there is a distinction in that people can express their displeasure with compelled speech, Wooley nonetheless established that the government cannot either censor your speech nor force you to speak the government's message. Thus, that distinction has no impact on the legal analysis.
The state isn't banning information transfer about conversion therapy. It is banning conversion therapy.
Like an iceburg, 90% of this is below the surface. There are three issues here:
1: Cogitative Behavioral Therapy (CBT)*is* brainwashing. It is based on the same research and methods as used by the North Koreans to get our POWs to renounce the USA, except that it is intended to help the patient — although I’m sure that the North Koreans felt the same way, that they were helping the pilots who had been victimized by being Americans.
It’s not that Gay Conversion is effective but that CBT is effective — it is brainwashing — and the Orwellian question if CBT ought to be allowed.at all.
The psych guild is a closed society — in order to have access to the primary data of what CBT is, one has to either be a licensed psychologist or a graduate student in an APA-approved program. And the APA is GAY, GAY, GAY — read _Keeton v. Augusta State_ if you haven’t — the APA forced Augusta State to expel a student on the basis of her religious beliefs.
Now secrets are impossible to keep in an internet world, and the APA’s monopoly on CBT info isn’t secure, The same tactics that the APA has used to expand the sexual babel is now being used to un-brainwash the brainwashed.
None of this is about tolerance or whatever is best for the individuals. The exceedingly disproportionate suicide rate ought be the siren song in the night, the sexual babel is not helping people if they keep killing themselves — in any other context, it would be investigated.
2: People have always sought the advise and counsel of others — it’s why solitary confinement raises 8th Amendment issues. It’s also why we have things like the marital testimony exception — it’s given that one seeks the advice and counsel of ones spouse.
What the APA wants to do is establish an exclusive monopoly over the ability to give advice and counsel. This monopoly is essential for CBT to work (it’s why cults exclude trainees from their families) but it’s also good for business.
My dad was a high school physics teacher, and he had a few students who sought his advice on if they should marry someone or not, the APA would like to say that only a psychologist could give this advice and counsel.
The Catholic Church has Engagement Encounter and Marriage Encounter — it is an attempt to reduce divorce and to make sure that couples actually ought to be getting married. The APA would rather have a psychologist do this, for very $imple reasons.
3: And this goes to the third issue, the Book of Levitticus (and the equivalent portion of the Koran). No observant Jewish, Christian, or Muslim clergyman can become a licensed psychologist because of the APA’s Gay policy and the Keeton decision.
If I thought I was gay (I don’t), I’d go to my minister for advice. And that, EV, is something that I think you need to emphasize in your brief. In the US, we have historically protected the right of clergy to advise their congregation and to advocate for anything not otherwise illegal.
The Gay Conversion ban is not only a violation of the First Amendment Speech but also First Amendment Religion. Let’s say that the minister doesn’t take the bare-knuckle CBT approach and instead discusses scripture and asks the congregant to explain how he/she/it feels about sexual orientation or identity.
Reading the Bible (or Torah) is inherently religious, as is praying, and this seeks to ban that.
The Gay Conversion ban is part of a broader attempt at grooming children for sexual molestation by adults. Yes, they want psychotherapists giving all the advice, and it has to be pro-homosexual advice.
What a fucking ignorant asshole you are.
there's some real princes in the comment section, aren't there?
"What a fucking ignorant asshole you are."
And what a dangerous one you are....
Dangerous?
I'm not the guy advocating nuking Gaza, or running over people with snow plows.
conversion therapy isn't a religious belief. the (religious) question of whether homosexuality is sinful is separate from the (scientific) question of whether conversion therapy is safe or effective. psychologists can (and have) run trials on conversion therapy, and found that it doesn't work. it's an empirical question.
you don't have to condone your patient having gay sex if it's against your religion, but you can't waterboard them into being straight.
agreed
Ed has been rebutted many times (which is why he has such a long post, he won't stay on that one topic of "Does conversion therapy work?" )
Dr. Van den Aardweg has more than 30 years of therapy helping homosexual persons.
https://exgaycalling.com/about/
Had this been a case about offering a free advice, or giving paid advice to the public at large, there's a very strong argument in favor of constitutional protection. But this case does not appear to be one of those; instead it involves people who are paid to offer an individualized advice. It is a commercial product in the form of some words.
I agree that this is not a "speech integral to criminal conduct". There is no separate crime. I think the commercial speech doctrine is the closest fit. (Okay, maybe I should clarify this: the proposed doctrine would not apply to mass media, because freedom of press is explicitly protected even though press is often commercial. No suing Ms. Selzer under this doctrine.)
" people who are paid to offer an individualized advice. It is a commercial product in the form of some word."
OK, I pay my minister for individualized advice. I pay one of two ways -- either I donate in the offering plate, or there is an annual assessment, payable weekly -- I put my money in an envelope and then put it in the offering plate (more a bowl).
I'm definitely paying, and it's an individualized service. And as I pointed out to EV, there is a freedom of religion issue here.
your minister isn't licensed by the State (obviously - that'd be a 1A violation.) therapists are. therapy is seen as a medical intervention, just one that uses words instead of pills. can the State no longer regulate the practice of psychotherapy at all, since it's "speech?"
Based on the arguments in section 1D of his brief, it appears Eugene says you can't regulate the speech parts of psychotherapy. He presented five examples of laws which restrict conduct but were found unconstitutional as applied to speech: 1) Breach of the peace, 2) Contempt of court, 3) Intentional infliction of emotional distress, 4) Interference with business relations, and 5) Material support to foreign terrorists.
I cannot disagree with any of them. It makes sense in these cases that the state cannot argue they facially regulate conduct and have only incidentally burdened speech. The same argument was rejected in 303 Creative (the three liberals accepted it in dissent).
And yet, this case strikes me as being different. It seems reasonable to me for the state to believe that all attempts at conversion therapy, speech or otherwise, are scams. Perhaps Japanese Student has a point that furthering these scams is akin to falsity in commercial speech.
Overruled by the existence of actual conversions.
Easy to produce, The Ruth Institute could do that for you
Jesus Saves....
But the same words, used in the same manner, for the same purpose, explicitly are part of the religion.
Taken to its logical extreme is https://www.themainewire.com/2025/06/satanic-temple-opens-telehealth-abortion-clinic-for-maine-to-secure-satanic-abortion-ritual/
NO, not even logically are the same. If religion can mean anyting you call 'religion' then OBVIOUSLY it means nothing
We forbid slavery and bigamy on religious grounds.
I thought the commercial speech doctrine permitted regulations of false or misleading advertising rather than speech necessary to deliver the service.
One question: is a law requiring the child's consent before receiving professional therapies - regardless of whether it is conversion therapy or not - constitutional? What if it only applies to conversion therapies?
It's the same thing as statutory rape, with a few exceptions, an unemancipated minor is not capable of giving consent.
Poor writing from you quite often.
"with few exceptions" what does it modify
statutory rape with a few exceptions
Or
with few exceptions an unemancipated ....
It’s the same thing as the comma in the Second Amendment and maybe I should have used a semicolon after the word “rape”, but I was really thinking of the exceptions in contract law.
And memory is that Kentucky law has marriage as an exception to statutory rape but check it yourself...
Well there you go wrong again...
But that does not mean non-statutory rape is not possible
"spousal rape is now criminalized in most places, including the United States."
"Poor writing from you quite often."
Quite often WHAT? Two can play this game....
I think in the general case it would have to withstand strict scrutiny, because it would severely burden the right of parents to direct the upbringing and care of their children. It might pass that test in the Ninth Circuit, but I don't think it should. I am pretty confident that the more specific case would not pass whatever level of scrutiny is required because it piles a viewpoint-based speech restriction on top of the problems in the general case.
I find myself a bit skeptical of the approach and its heavy reliance on Giboney. I tend to think of the various First Amendment exceptions as tending to evolve independently and being somewhat sui generis. I am in general skeptical of theories that attempt to explain everything – one rule to ring them all theories, for want of a better term. Generally speaking, no single theory explains everything in complex matters like human affairs. While theories that seem to explain everything tend to give their creators great intellectual satisfaction, feelings of internal intellectual satisfaction are not the guarantors of external truth that those prone to such feelings fend to assume. And attempts to force everything into a single theory tend to result in not just Procrustian beds, but whole Procrustian.villages.
In the statement of interest, you have the word “He” italicized.
Fixed, thanks!
I think professional speech is a sui generis historical category that is intermediate between full protection and the zero protection that crime-facilitating speech gets. I think the Supreme Court was wrong to hold otherwise.
This means I agree with the basic thesis of the brief that professional speech is neither conduct nor crime-facilitating speech.
The situation we have now is that, in many states, child therapists can promote LGBT ideologies and promote sexual grooming, but cannot promote normal childhood.
In those states, the majority accept being gay or transgender as normal and believe they are promoting normal childhood by outlawing conversion therapy. Leaving aside the speech issue, why should courts be second guessing the will of the majority?
I don't think majorities do accept that, or believe that. Even if they do, I do not think that they should be forcing that view on others.
If the majority doesn't accept it, they can pressure their representatives to change the law. The law does not force a view on others.
Josh, on that prinicple we would have slavery still.
And logically the will of any group over about 5 -- let alone society!!--- will have a will based on principles that in many cases are at complete odds with each other.
My great example is the person who supports Prohibition because it will increase the sales from his illegal still.
A very very poor argument, Josh
Speaking of slavery, not letting the slaves vote is the same thing as not letting heterosexuals be psychologists, and hence not letting them vote.
Of course the majority does not get its way when it denies the basic human right to freedom (slavery). And it might not get its way because of freedom of speech in this case. But Roger was arguing the majority should not get its way in this case absent the speech issue. Thus, your claim my argument is very poor is a claim that majority rule is very poor.
Josh, minorities have rights in a republic.
Remember that the majority supported Bull Connor.
Again leaving aside the speech issue, what minority's rights are being denied by this law.
This is a classic example of the problems caused by the tradition in US constitutional law to try to squeeze everything into black & white frameworks. Something is A or B, and if it's A the plaintiff wins and if it's B the defendant wins. That's no way to run a country.
Black and white rules are simplistic at some point, though legal systems do have categories. They provide a useful means to guide people. Other countries use them too.
They do, but they also have room for questions that are a matter of degree.
So you'd start with 1) yes, this is obviously a regulation of speech, but 2) it is a regulation that pursues a permissible goal (protection of health of minors), and 3) there is no less-intrusive way to accomplish this goal, and 4) the regulation is not disproportionate to the ends sought, etc.
You don't end up in a situation where you're forced to argue that someone talking isn't "speech". (Or that someone dancing is actually communicating something.)
Have you posited that the law overcomes strict scrutiny (no way the Court will go there)? Or, are you saying a lesser from of scrutiny should apply?
I think that is generally speaking fine, but that is also how the rules are applied in this country. The debate will be over levels of scrutiny and other such things. Also, EV is an advocate, and is somewhat heavy-handed IMHO.
THe Higher Law background specifically repudiates that going all the way back to Roman Law
epikeia refers to a liberal interpretation of law that allows for exceptions in cases where strict adherence to the letter of the law would violate natural law or cause hardship
But you have to know 'natural law" !!!
This demonstrates one of the problems with commercial speech doctrine, a facet of what you might call anti-Lochnerism. Here we have a controversy that divides the nation, and the government has decided to land firmly on one side of it, and in a really heavy handed way.
And because the speech involved is considered "commercial", the 1st amendment evaporates.
Frankly, commercial speech doctrine is a perversion of 1st amendment jurisprudence. We should be fighting to get rid of it.
because the speech involved is considered “commercial”, the 1st amendment evaporates
That's not the law of commercial speech. It's just your vibes.
Frankly, commercial speech doctrine is a perversion of 1st amendment jurisprudence
Is that your originalist analysis?
No, that's a textualist analysis. I'd be interested how much regulation of non-fraudulent commercial speech there actually was in the founding era, to justify commercial speech doctrine.
The lower court briefly references Giboney to blandly note:
it has never been deemed an abridgement of freedom of speech . . . to make a course of conduct illegal merely because the conduct was in part initiated, evidenced, or carried out by means of language, either spoken, written, or printed.”
This is on page 51 of the opinion.
It earlier discusses how the regulation involves professional conduct. Citing Planned Parenthood v. Casey, it noted SCOTUS upheld regulation of abortion involving "the practice of medicine, subject to reasonable licensing and regulation by the State.” This includes informed consent involving speech.
The opinion placed the regulation of conversion therapy in this context. It involves the professional conduct of medical professionals. There is a history and tradition allowing the regulation of medical professionals.
THEN it cites Gibbons to note that regulation of professional conduct does not become a problem merely because speech is somehow involved. The regulation "incidentally
involves speech because an aspect of the counseling conduct" involves speech.
The government can regulate medical professionals, including determining that certain treatments are harmful to minors. "Merely" because speech is involved doesn't make this unconstitutional. The opinion doesn't make "illegal conduct" into some sort of talisman to broadly censor.
The opinion carefully notes that the regulation allows a variety of speech involving conversion therapy. Also, that term means various things. It is not just speech-related.
To quote Wikipedia for simplicity:
Methods that have been used to this end include forms of brain surgery, surgical or chemical (hormonal) castration, aversion therapy treatments such as electric shocks, nausea-inducing drugs, hypnosis, counseling, spiritual interventions, visualization, psychoanalysis, and arousal reconditioning.
Making the jump from "Conduct isn't protected just because you talk about it" to "Conduct that IS just speech therefore isn't protected." is a pretty big leap, and it's that leap the amicus brief argues against taking.
Eugene countered that the compelled speech in Planned Parenthood was incidental to a regulation of conduct because abortion was being regulated and abortion is not speech. In contrast in this case, conversion therapy is being regulated which itself includes speech.
I think Eugene is likely wrong. The argument that regulating medical procedures that happen to involve some speech is a regulation of conduct that only incidentally burdens speech.
But, Eugene makes a good point that usually a law which is targeted at conduct is unconstitutional as applied to speech (breach of the peace, contempt of court, intentional infliction of emotional distress, interference with business relations, material support to foreign terrorists - plus anti-discrimination law per 303 Creative where the dissent said the law only incidentally burdened speech).
It strikes me that a regulation of licensed professional conduct, or perhaps preventing fraud in commercial speech, makes this case different than the ones above.
" The argument that regulating medical procedures that happen to involve some speech is a regulation of conduct that only incidentally burdens speech."
But to the extent they limit themselves to talk therapy, the therapy doesn't "happen to involve some speech", (Like my phlebotomist telling me I might feel a pinch.) it IS speech.
I don't think the analysis changes if the practitioner uses only speech or partially uses speech. Either the speech component is protected or not.
I tend to concur with your second paragraph.
The reference to the "speech integral to illegal conduct" exception overall to me seemed overblown given the application in the opinion. I inferred he was worried about a graver threat than the opinion warranted.
The thing the brief is agnostic on ("takes no position on what First Amendment test this Court should articulate for restrictions on professional-client speech") seems to me a significant issue here.
As to Planned Parenthood, courts have been concerned about certain types of laws that regulate speech involving abortion procedures. The compelled speech was repeatedly ideological, not solely addressing health concerns.
If anything, protecting minors from bad medicine is a stronger ground for state regulation than the slanted ideological "informed" consent present in some of the abortion regulations. OTOH, this blog is somewhat selective about caring about that.
Thanks for pointing out Eugene's concession that this law might survive under the professional-client speech doctrine. Nonetheless, his legitimate concern is:
I concur we can't have the tautology that speech becomes conduct because the law declares it is conduct. But in this case, the state isn't trying to backdoor speech into conduct. Instead, all agree the speech is part of conversion therapy. The only question is whether the professional-client doctrine covers speech that is part and parcel of the professional service being delivered. Maybe Eugene can buy into that?
Clearly, anything that communicates ideas — WHATEVER the ideas are — constitute protected speech. Conversion Therapy may well be bogus to you or me, but I could say the same about Nietzschean philosophy or the equant as a cosmological explanatory device. It encourages a path of action (or inaction as the case may be) but neither the action nor the inaction constitute illegal acts. If one could make illegal speech that encouraged a philosophy, set of values, or perfectly legal conduct based on the assertion that it is “harmful” then there is no limit to what the government can ban. Among other things, it could ban me from becoming a Sumo coach, because I would be encouraging my charges to become obese. Or I could work for Ford modeling agency and have the opposite set of goals. Etc.
It's being banned because it communicates ideas... that the people doing the banning hate. If they could reach speech that wasn't commercial, they'd ban that, too; They actually TRIED to ban 'misgendering' and 'dead naming', in HB 1312! And only gave up on the idea because it was so obviously unconstitutional it might have resulted in legal blow-back against the state.
Conversion Therapy may well be bogus to you or me, but I could say the same about Nietzschean philosophy or the equant as a cosmological explanatory device.
But these are not harmful to the listener.
It’s being banned because it communicates ideas… that the people doing the banning hate. If they could reach speech that wasn’t commercial, they’d ban that, too;
It's all being done in bad faith, right, Brett? And you understand it all because you took a lot of biology classes.
Look, we don't ban speech because it's "harmful to the listener".
"It’s all being done in bad faith, right, Brett? "
Look at the history of HB 1312. They were going to try to ban 'misgendering' and 'deadnaming'. It's not about professional misconduct, it's about banning speech they don't like.
They just think they can get away with it in this case because of that damnable 'commercial speech doctrine'. They'd do it in a lot more cases if they thought they could get away with it, and I confidently say that because they tried.
This brief is made in support of neither party. Yet, it seems to me it only supports the petitioner. Is Eugene claiming there is another doctrine besides speech integral to illegal conduct that allows the respondent to prevail?
I'd guess it's "in support of neither party" because they think the one party should prevail as a matter of law, but don't LIKE that party.
So the brief is just to help the court get the law right, not to support that party.
You are on the leading --- but falling -- edge
"The current 40% of U.S. adults who believe that changing genders is morally acceptable is ===> down six points from 2021 <=====, while the latest 54% who think it is morally wrong is similar to prior readings," Gallup explained.