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Second Amendment Roundup: Washington Supreme Court Upholds Mag Ban
It’s déjà vu all over again.
On May 8, in its 7-2 decision by Justice Charles Johnson in State v. Gator's Custom Guns, the Washington Supreme Court upheld the state ban on the import and sale of magazines that hold over ten rounds. Last year I posted "Injunction Against Washington Magazine Ban Stayed Within Minutes," explaining how Superior Court Gary B. Bashor's 55-page preliminary injunction against the ban was stayed just 49 minutes after the state filed its appeal brief with the Supreme Court. The case is now remanded to consider the State's consumer-protection enforcement action against Gator's for alleged violation of the ban.
The court followed the now-familiar script that "large capacity magazines (LCMs) are not 'arms' within the meaning of either constitutional provision, nor is the right to purchase LCMs an ancillary right necessary to the realization of the core right to possess a firearm in self-defense." That is the case both under the federal Second Amendment and under Washington's guarantee that "The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired…."
Based on Heller's quotation from a 1771 dictionary defining "arms" as anything that a man "useth in wrath to cast at … another," the court said that "the LCM itself does not cast the round but feeds the round into the firearm." Further, such magazines are supposedly not "integral components" of firearms because no firearm requires a magazine of the subject capacity to operate.
It goes without saying that no specific part of a firearm – the barrel, sights, safety, or stock – is used "to cast at another." And a magazine is necessary to feed a round into a semiautomatic firearm. The assumption that a magazine that holds ten or under rounds may be protected but one that holds over ten is not, has no constitutional basis. (As an aside, semiautomatics with a "magazine safety" won't fire at all without a magazine inserted.)
Recall that Heller held that "arms 'in common use at the time' for lawful purposes like self-defense" are protected. The Gator's court rejects "ownership statistics" on the basis that "whether LCMs are common in circulation does not inform this court whether they are 'commonly used for self-defense,' as how many LCMs are owned has no bearing on what those LCMs are actually used for." They are allegedly not so used because "the average number of shots fired in self-defense is merely 2.2."
It turns out that the Gator's opinion simply parrots the same playbook as the Ninth Circuit in its recent decision in Duncan v. Becerra upholding California's ban on mere possession of magazines that hold more than ten cartridges. See my post here. How did it come to this?
After Heller set forth the common-use test, courts that upheld the bans readily conceded that the test was met. In Heller II, the D.C. Circuit found, "We think it clear enough in the record that semi-automatic rifles and magazines holding more than ten rounds are indeed in 'common use,' as the plaintiffs contend…. There may well be some capacity above which magazines are not in common use but, if so, the record is devoid of evidence as to what that capacity is; in any event, that capacity surely is not ten." Then-Judge Brett Kavanaugh dissented, agreeing that the banned rifles were in common use but suggesting a remand on the magazine issue for more facts on common use.
While never questioning that the banned items are "arms" and conceding that they are in common use, Heller II applied intermediate scrutiny to find that public safety outweighed the constitutional right. Other decisions, such as that of the Second Circuit in New York State Rifle and Pistol Ass'n, Inc. v. Cuomo, followed the same reasoning.
That is, until the Supreme Court in Bruen held that applying means-ends scrutiny "is one step too many." Instead, Bruen held: "When the Second Amendment's plain text covers an individual's conduct, the Constitution presumptively protects that conduct. The government must then justify its regulation by demonstrating that it is consistent with the Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation."
Painted into the Bruen corner, courts with the agenda to uphold bans suddenly discovered that semiautomatic rifles and magazines that hold over ten rounds are not even "arms" after all, and even if they are, the government, not the people, gets to decide whether they are any good for self-defense. It turns out that the government knows best when it comes to exercise of a constitutional right.
Such courts are not fazed by Bruen's directive that "even though the Second Amendment's definition of 'arms' is fixed according to its historical understanding, that general definition covers modern instruments that facilitate armed self-defense." The Gator's court contorts this reference to mean that such instruments must be viewed in isolation, i.e., that a magazine by itself cannot be used in self-defense, despite the fact that it is an instrument (aka "object") that could obviously facilitate armed self-defense. It uses as an analogy its prior holding in Seattle v. Evans that a paring knife that a person carried for self-defense was not designed as a weapon, such as a dagger would be, and thus was not an "arm" when so carried.
What a stingy interpretation of a constitutional right. Pity the poor person who can't afford a dagger. But wait, aren't daggers like Bowie knives, the epitome of what can be banned? Bruen didn't think so – in medieval times "[a]lmost everyone carried a knife or a dagger in his belt," and "[c]ivilians wore them for self-protection," making them "as most analogous to modern handguns." And as a medieval expert informs us, "for the common man, a dagger was an everyday utility, serving purposes from cutting food to self-defense."
Dissenting in Gator's, Justice Gordon McCloud points out that the majority views history "at an extremely high level of generality—so high that we characterize those old laws as barring weapons once society weighs their utility against their danger and decides that they are too dangerous." But that's "precisely the sort of policy-laden interest-balancing" that Bruen rejected.
Moreover, the Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms "in common use" not just for self-defense, but also for other "lawful purposes" such as hunting and target practice. And as for self-defense, firearms with magazines are being "used" when kept and borne for that purpose, not just when shots are fired, rendering the supposed average firing of 2.2 shots in self-defense meaningless. The majority's premise that "the State alone gets to select the arms that individuals can use for self-defense" turns the constitutional right upside down:
But the Second Amendment doesn't protect the right of the State to choose the best arm for self-defense; it protects the right of the individual to make that choice. So despite what the State prefers, under Heller's "in common use" test, the popularity of an arm among the law-abiding public actually determines whether that arm enjoys Second Amendment protection.
The state argued that a magazine is analogous to a Revolutionary-War-era "cartridge box," making it merely "an accessory, not an arm." As Justice McCloud notes, while both a cartridge box and a magazine store ammunition, a magazine "uses a spring or other mechanism to feed rounds of ammunition into the gun's firing chamber. It is an integral part of the firearm, like a trigger or a grip."
What is obvious is that the Washington Supreme Court got the post-Bruen memo on how recalcitrant courts can best obstruct Bruen's methodology. Deprived of intermediate scrutiny, their rulings can reach the same result by denying that an arm is an "arm" under the plain text. Reminds one of the pre-Heller days when "the people" didn't include actual persons (only state militias) and "arms" didn't include handguns, and the pre-Bruen days when "bear" didn't mean carry.
Without intervention by the United States Supreme Court, this obstruction will continue. The Court has yet again relisted two Second Amendment cases for its conference on Friday May 15. They include Ocean State Tactical v. Rhode Island, which concerns Rhode Island's magazine ban, and Snope v. Brown, which concerns Maryland's ban on semiautomatic rifles. Keep your fingers crossed.
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Pure bad faith. Don't even bother trying to apply reason to it. It'll continue as long as the pussy Irish John Roberts and Brett Kavanagh (these micks belong in a pub drinking Guinness, not on the Supreme Court) and the race traitor Barrett are on the court.
First time I've seen trolling about Irish.
Go wash your mouth out with some Irish Spring. Then stop drinking your Bud Light and sober up.
They're Catholic. These days, I'm hostile to all that are not white and Protestant.
No, you're hostile to everybody, including yourself.
Nope.
I realize being unpopular in high school isn't fun, but the intentional bigotry and racism is such an obvious cliche to your classmates that it's just not worth the distress you're causing your parents.
You think Trump believes in God?
lol
John Belushi’s St Patrick’s day rant is the best “Irish trolling” ever, still cracks me up 50 yrs later and I’m 1/2 Irish (and 1/2 Jewish, so I like to get drunk, but as cheaply as possible, then feel guilty about it)
Okay, that's pretty funny.
That IS funny.
Wrong Supreme Court, Taio. This was the Washington Supreme Court, not the Supreme Court in Washington.
This decision was a given, no one expected otherwise. The WA court is completely controlled by ultra leftists. Only three justices have lost reelection bids in the past 60 years and most elections are uncontested. This is even more important because vacancies are filled by appointments, by the governor. We have only had far left governors for the past twenty years or so, which means that they appoint, the justices are on for life (mostly).
Judicial hostility against the 2nd Amendment is not due to concerns about public safety, for if it were, there would be the same degree of hostility against the other amendments.
Why? What does public safety have to do with the right to a jury trial, or against unreasonable search and seizure, or freedom of religion?
If you're not being sarcastic, you're a blithering idiot.
Do you really not see how we could make things safer if the police could search anyone's house for any reason?
Ah, now you've descended into ordinary boring trollage. How sad.
Paul Harding explained it better than I could.
https://www.quora.com/How-can-a-gun-enthusiast-still-claim-their-right-to-bear-arms-is-more-important-than-public-safety/answer/Paul-Harding-14
All of your Constitutional Rights come at the cost of safety.
For example, you would be much safer if I could search houses, cars, and people whenever I wanted to, for any reason, or no reason at all. I'd catch more real bad guys. You know those stories about creeps who keep sex slaves locked in their basements for years? I'd find those victims and rescue them. That neighbor of yours who might have a meth lab that is going to send poisonous fumes into your child's bedroom window, or explode and burn down your house? I'd find out for sure whether a lab was there.
How about all those guys who are probably child molesters, and we've got some evidence, but it isn't enough to convict in front of a jury, especially with that defense attorney throwing doubt all over our evidence? Those guys are on the street right now, and a child you love may be their next victim.
Give up your rights under the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments, and I'll make the world safer for you. No question about it.
The only problem is that if you give up all those rights, which are really just restrictions on the things I'm allowed to do to you, what's going to keep you safe from me?
Every right you have increases your danger from other people who share that right. Free speech? It allows monsters to spread hateful messages, possibly about a group to which you belong, just the same as it allows you to petition your government with legitimate grievances.
That free speech even allows you to argue in favor of discarding freedom and liberty as just too dangerous to trust in the hands of ordinary people. Now that, my friend, is what scares me - that people with opinions like that will spread them to weak-willed individuals who haven't really thought through the consequences. I won't argue for taking that right away, though, despite the dangers. That would be even more scary than you are.
Yes, some people in a free society are always going to abuse those freedoms. Criminals are going to hide behind the 4th amendment to conceal the evidence of their crimes. People who commit horrific acts are going to hire excellent defense attorneys who can convince a jury that doubt exists. And, yes, some people are going to use guns to commit murders.
Freedom is scary, but lack of freedom is scarier.
It's not about the public's safety, it's about the government's safety FROM the public, where the judges understand they're part of the government.
Gun control was, of course, an important component of Jim Crow, but while Jim Crow gun laws were written in general terms, their application was relentlessly targeted at minorities, and the majority were left alone.
But the 20th century saw a new sort of gun control come to America, gun control pointed at the general population, and really only exempting the government's own people. This was prompted by a wave of political assassinations, and the political class deciding that an armed populace was a personal threat to them.
Indeed, the modern gun control movement had it's birth in the wake of the JFK assassination, it started out as government astroturf, and never really shed its astroturf status.
So, yeah, it's about safety, but not the public's safety, quite the contrary. The government's.
Exactly this. The judiciary is not independent of government. It's a branch of government that seeks to protect its own.
As opposed to what? A system to private arbitration?
Nobody's suggesting not having a judiciary, we're just noticing that when it comes to government vs the citizenry, they typically take the government's side.
You continue to not understand how people work.
There is no secret interbranch solidarity in the federal government. It would be illegal, in fact.
There are tons of examples of government losing out to citizens in the courts. You ignore all that, because you don't like institutions.
It is simply an open defiance of the right to keep and bear arms.
A 10 round magazine in sufficient says the court. Is taking only a moderate amount of notes to a Bible study or having a simple privacy fence sufficient to protect those rights?
Why can the government say that it doesn't want the right exercised past a certain level, when they really want no level of protection? The whole point of fundamental rights is to stop this sort of governmental intrusion.
If it is sufficient, why exempt law enforcement?
And do not the same side that wants more of these laws also claim that law enforcement habitually hunts down and guns down unarmed Black men?
As I said: Gun control is not meant to protect the people from criminals. It's meant to protect the government from the people.
The government does not see armed criminals as a threat to itself, and so they are not the primary focus of gun control efforts. Rather, armed criminals are actually useful to the government as an excuse to pursue disarming the public, and so are relegated to being the last people the government will actually try to disarm.
Talk to someone in favor of gun control; they have a pretty different take.
I'm talking about what drives it, not what the useful idiots believe.
No, you're talking about why YOU like guns, and making that the universe.
You never addressed why the same side that enacts these laws is the same side that calls fpr decarceration and defunding the police, accuses the police of habitually hinting down and gunning down unarmed Black men, accuses the criminal justice system of being systemically racist.
You mean I never responded to the comment you posted 10 minutes before this one?
Well I did respond below, and it turns out you're lumping leftists (and a certain flavor of leftists) in with Democrats, and then complaining it's inconsistent.
And half of your inconsistencies have nothing to do with one another.
I have, for many years. Some are just irrationally scared of guns and know nothing about them. Others hate them because they're a symbol of white male conservatism. I have never met any that I would consider "reasonable."
I think you have many of the reasons well laid out here.
But I think some are reasonable - lots of deaths, and it's not ridiculous to think of guns as a but-for cause. Or the stats on violent crime in places that ban guns versus those that don't; they're
equivocal.
I just disagree.
The problem is that the people calling for control here generally don't ask for full bans, because they know it is unconstitutional and flatly contradicted by the text of the 2nd Amendment. So instead they ask for "reasonable regulations" that are either unreasonable or are completely ineffective.
Almost all soneones who support gun cobtrol have no power to enact nor enforce gun control.
Those who actually ENACT these laws also call for decarceration, definding the police. They accuse the police of habitually hunting down and gunning down unarmed Black men, accuse the criminal justice system of being systemically racist.
And those who enforce these laws know that if thry enforce these laws against the favored constituencies of those who enact these laws, they will lose their jobs for being racist.
Those who actually ENACT these laws also call for decarceration, definding the police.
I'm sure some do, but I don't think you've got your thumb on the pulse of the Democratic Party if you think defund the police is their thing, versus cringey lip service when something was hot.
Yes. If we don't "need" 30 round magazines or rifles with three round burst, why do cops?
They have different jobs. I've heard a number of gun experts talk about the 3-3-3 rule in home defense. Professionals who are actively engaging armed criminal have different needs.
"Professionals who are actively engaging armed criminal have different needs."
Can you elaborate on how those needs differ from an amateur who is actively engaging armed criminals?
That's (D)ifferent.
They don't have different jobs.
At best, you could argue that citizens are in a defensive mode, and the police can be in an offensive mode, but I don't see that as a meaningful distinction.
Banning barrels longer than 0.01 inches long is a logical next step.
These morons have their acronym backwards, LCM means low capacity magazines, why do you think manufacturers have to make special SKUs for 10 round mag optioned gums, and have a limited selection of choices, when most of the popular normal size handguns use 15 or 17 round mags as SCMs (standard capacity magazines). Fuckers shouldn't be allowed to judge a dog show let alone trample on people's rights. The supreme court needs to get their shit together and close these absurd loopholes once and for all.
"What is obvious is that the Washington Supreme Court got the post-Bruen memo on how recalcitrant courts can best obstruct Bruen's methodology."
What's obvious is that none of this would matter if the Supreme court had any interest at all in putting a stop to it.
We have to face the fact that, despite the bold and clear statement in Bruen, the majority of the Court have absolutely no desire to strike down any but the very worst gun laws, that verge on complete bans. As Rahimi demonstrated, only the author of Bruen actually MEANT it.
A ban on normal capacity magazines may violate the Supreme court's ruling, but the Supreme court itself does not care, and these lower courts have figured that out.
Bold and clear, if you're fluent in BrettLaw.
Plenty of folks saw this coming when Bruen came out. 'Historical tradition' is bold, but it sure isn't clear. Your certainty comes from ideology, not history. And that's not the law.
This is why discarding a well-litigated previous legal edifice was dumb. It's easier to build that in a different direction than to tear it all down.
Maybe over a couple of decades of lower courts working to create sub-doctrines we'll get back to something certain.
Bold and clear if you're able to parse English sentences. Not so clear if you really, really dislike the implications of what it said. It's true that there isn't a lot of historical record there, but that's because there wasn't a lot of gun control, which is kind of the point.
"This is why discarding a well-litigated previous legal edifice was dumb."
Bruen was needed because the lower courts, told to employ strict scrutiny instead of rational basis, continued to employ rational basis, just calling it "strict scrutiny", so the Court had to instruct them on how to go about doing strict scrutiny, instead of just using the words. The previous legal edifice was being deliberately subverted, just as Bruen is.
That's not going to bother you if you like gun control, and aren't offended by explicit constitutional rights being run over roughshod if you disapprove of them. It bothers those of us who want the 2nd amendment actually enforced.
But the majority on the Court clearly do not fall into that group.
Sure, dude. History and tradition is easy and obvious and everyone who doesn't share your take on it hates guns and is in bad faith.
If you were listening to someone make the arguments you're making. Tabula rasa. Would you find your ipse dixit about what the Court meant but didn't say to be convincing?
Everything is hard that you don't want to do.
This is not so complicated. The 2nd amendment promulgates a very categorical rule: The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Facially, this would appear to prohibit ALL gun control whatsoever. But the Court allowed for exceptions if you could show that they involve things that were not thought to violate the right at the time the 2nd amendment was adopted.
This is the same sort of reasoning that leads to defamation and fraud being legally actionable in spite of the 1st amendment, you understand. Because they were legally actionable at the time the 1st amendment was adopted, and nobody thought that problematic at the time.
And somehow this same reasoning is workable when it comes to speech! How is that, if it's impractical?
All we're asking here is that the 2nd amendment gets the same respect the 1st does, the same treatment. Rather than being treated as a second class amendment that can be violated at the drop of a lame excuse.
They actually called it intermediate scrutiny, but it wasn't even that.
Professor Volokh wrote about this over a decade ago, and nothing has materially changed.
https://volokh.com/2013/03/21/fourth-circuit-upholds-maryland-restrictive-licensing-system-for-gun-carrying/
False. There are some things where the historical analogue can lead to two reasonable conclusions, but most of these defiant decisions are not that.
A lot of them can be summarized with "There were gun laws at the founding intended to reduced crime, and this law is intended to reduce crime. The Supreme Court has said there need not be an exact analogue, so therefore, it's constitutional." With that type of "reasoning," a defiant court could uphold virtually any gun law.
A defiant court will get appealed.
Only if the Supreme court can find no way to avoid it. Upholding the 2nd amendment is so far down their list of priorities they can't even see it most days.
Gator McKlusky could not be reached for comment
Wow, I need more coffee this morning. I first read that to say:
"Washington Supreme Court Upholds Bag Man"
LOL!
I don't even own magazines, pistol or rifle, that are only 10 rounds.
Well, I *do* have a 3 round magazine for my deer gun, but only because Michigan law mandated that solely for hunting purposes. Other than that, yeah, not one magazine that holds as few as ten.
Actually, most of my magazines are 100 rounds, for my Calico.
That must be some mean Cat
A 100 round magazine full of tracers at dusk, and a hellfire trigger, makes a Calico into the closest thing to an SF laser rifle you'll ever see.
It also makes your bank account shrink remarkably fast, which is why I only did that a couple times.
My kids got me a 9mm 50 round drum for my Banshee (fits glock magazines) two years ago for my birthday.
Did any arms, at the time of the BoR. or for a century afterwards (until the Maxim gun) have magazines of more than ten rounds?
Yes. Lewis and Clark used the Girandoni air rifle, which had a 20 round magazine.
The capacity of ten rounds is irrelevant as it's a number pulled out of thin air. 1779 was the first magazine (tubular) fed firearm that was mass produced. The Henry lever action rifle (you may have heard of it) was introduced in 1860. What is magical about ten? The anti-gun crowd used to make the same argument but substituting flintlock rifles. It's a logically pointless argument because the founders didn't say "The right to keep and bear arms of the type that we currently have at home".
Other things that weren't invented back then, computers, cell phones, radio, TV, automobiles. And yet all sorts of Constitutional rights cover those things also.
Years ago, New York, which already had a 10 round mag ban, reduced it to 7. It turns out that most guns didn't even have a 7 round mag available. There was no logic to it other than, "7 < 10."
Same here.
The standard magazine for the 1911 Government Model 45 is 7 rounds, 'though there are 8 round extended single stack mags available.
Sure, but there were no 7 round mags available for nearly any 9mm. Certainly not for any of the Glocks on the market at the time. Kahr had the PM9, but that was about it as far as mainstream pistols. Later on, S&W made the original 7 round Shield.
The legislature is allowed to push magic numbers.
But history and tradition does have baked in some judicial line-drawing, to define what's analogous if nothing else.
If we stick to the test, more and more attributes of gun laws will get explicated one by one and blessed by higher courts. This will get easier over time. But for now, it's hard to see which lines to draw much less where to draw them.
The legislature is allowed to push magic numbers where they're allowed to push numbers in the first place. Not when it comes to the exercise of constitutional rights.
A 100 book bookcase limit with exemptions for libraries. No printer magazines larger than ten sheets, nobody needs their printer to hold a whole ream of paper! Just try that sort of shit with an amendment the Court LIKES.
You seem utterly incapable of reasoning about the 2nd amendment as a constitutional right, rather than a disfavored privilege.
And even where they are allowed to push numbers, the laws must be rational. Most of these are not even.
"history and tradition does have baked in some judicial line-drawing, to define what's analogous if nothing else."
I'd say that's a bug, not a feature. You seem into it though...but only if you like the number.
You also seem to be incapable of actually responding to arguments.
The 1st amendment works in exactly the way you claim is impractical for the 2nd amendment to work: A flat prohibition of laws impinging on the right, with historically validated exceptions.
And your magic numbers would never be tolerated for books, printing presses, or speeches.
Nor would they be tolerated in a 4th Amendment context.
Imagine a state passong law limiting how many times you can refuse a wareantless search by police?
The 1st amendment works in exactly the way you claim is impractical for the 2nd amendment to work: A flat prohibition of laws impinging on the right
No, that's not how the 1st Amendment works. Not even just the speech part of the 1st Amendment.
There are entire law school classes about free speech law! Political versus commercial, conduct, expressive association, time place and manner, material support, public/private/traditional public forums, students, obscenity, defamation....
Flat prohibition by ass.
---
Yes, 1A analysis doesn't have magic numbers. That's why I said of Bruen introducing such things, "that's a bug, not a feature." But once you are asking when something is analogous, you're drawing lines.
That's your favorite analysis doing it. Reasonable restrictions doesn't do that.
Brett's and your answers are good enough for me.
Other things that weren't invented back then, computers, cell phones, radio, TV, automobiles. And yet all sorts of Constitutional rights cover those things also.
And that is the problem with the Scalia/Originalist/Textualist (fake) approach to constitutional interpretation
All of those constitutional rights have limitations using various lines, including somewhat "magical" ones.
For instance, buffer zones regulating First Amendment-related activities where the legislature sets a certain distance to provide some clarity, or the lines used for "reasonable" searches and seizures. Or the regulation of radio transmissions or whatever.
The limitations are not a result of "anti-rights crowds" but a realization that rights are not absolute and various things have to be balanced and addressed. Sometimes, like the "well-regulated militia," this will result in legislative line-drawing.
You're talking about ways our rights have eroded in the last few decades, you notice. I see no reason to get ahead of the curve on eroding the 2nd amendment. Or rather we're already WAY ahead of the curve, and trying to get back to just a typical level of rights erosion for this right.
"The first magazines holding more than 10 rounds emerged in the late 16th century. Repeating firearms with tubular magazines, like the Austrian Army's Girandoni air rifle, were mass-produced as early as 1779. In the 1850s, the Volcanic Rifle and the Henry rifle were examples of early high-capacity magazines using lever action. The Henry rifle had a 16-round capacity."
At a Public shooting range in Alabama, January 21, 2013 (still remember, it was Barry Osama's second Immaculation, man the guy was late for everything*) some joker claiming to be "ATF" gave me shit for my FAL with its pistol grip stock and 20 round magazines, knew he was fake because that's not how ATF operates, he did the same with some of the other shooters, some of whom actually did have some short barreled rifles (legal if they're registered), guy screwed up when one of the shooters was an off duty Alabama State Trooper and spotted Deputy Dawg's fake ATF badge, guy got a free ride to the Macon County Jail.
*since January 20, 2013 was a Sunday they swore His Barry-ness in private on Sunday, and did the Pubic Swearing the next day
Frank
It turns out that Halbrook and the other 2nd amendment absolutist gun fetishists want the Heller decision reversed as much as any gun control advocate. They want the 2nd half of the decision, the part about the continuing ability to regulate, gone. They recognize no regulation that would help prevent thousands of their fellow citizens being killed by firearms every year. The adjective for this attitude is "bloodthirsty."
You want reasonable regulation, I'm all for that. I don't want guns that accidentally go off if dropped, or blow up in somebody's hand. I don't want shots fired in gun ranges hitting bystanders.
But the sort of regulations we're discussing here aren't safety regulations, they're regulations directly aimed at minimizing the core point of the amendment: That the populace be entitled to be effectively armed. They're regulations that aim to make guns less effective as armaments. That's not an incidental effect of these laws, it is precisely what they set out to accomplish.
How do you propose to reduce the number of gun deaths in the US?
Most gun deaths in the US are career criminals killing other criminals. Not great, but maybe not the first thing we should be obsessing about, they're actually winnowing out their own numbers.
But if we are going to be concerned about it, disarming the law abiding is probably the last thing that would help. A healthy black market makes sure that gun control will have little impact on gun possession by criminals, and it's basically impossible to avoid a black market in a commodity that isn't just lawful for most of the population to own, but constitutionally protected. All you're doing is making more people defenseless against them.
I think if you really want to do something about it, you'd focus on suppressing gangs, and making organized crime less profitable by denying it markets, so that the gangs would not have a profitable sideline as muscle for organized crime where they're not running it themselves would be a good start on that.
1. Three strikes, and stop sealing juvenile records.
2. Relegalize drugs. Genuinely relegalize them, not these halfway measures that get you all the downsides of drug use while keeping the black market going.
3. Fix the inner city ghettos. Don't subsidize them by pumping in money, give up on the idea that you can magically create viable economies in places there isn't any reason for people to be anymore, and depopulate them: Make it really easy for people who want to get out to move out and make a new start someplace where there are actually jobs to be had, and employed role models to emulate.
Local politicians will howl about it. Ignore them.
If necessary, create some kind of new Civil Conservation Corps, where inner city youth can escape from gang culture, be taught to be employable, and be relocated to places that aren't hopeless. And watch it like a hawk to make sure it doesn't just get taken over by the gangs!
It it's suicide and not murder that concerns you, do something about the gross gender inequity in American divorce law. Most suicides are men, and most of men's suicides are recently divorced guys who've had their lives turned upside down and been financially ruined, and see no hope of ever escaping the resulting poverty.
I know, I was there: One year married, and a judge thought it was perfectly reasonable to leave me with all our marital debts, (Most of which had been her credit card debt before we married!) and do nothing at all about her having emptied all our joint accounts before revealing her plan to divorce me. A few months later I was in the bath with a bottle of booze and a sharp knife, and the only reason I'm still around is that it wasn't enough booze.
If half of all suicides were recently divorced WOMEN, you'd better bet it would be treated as a national crisis. Why is it OK to drive men to suicide?
Assuming I have been appointed emperor:
First, 'gun deaths' is imprecise. People die in three ways from guns:
1)Accidents: this is a very small number. That is in part because of the gun owning population has largely voluntarily adopted pretty rigorous safety rules. Go to your local range and compare the zero-tolerance attitude for say muzzle discipline or whatever with the behavior of your fellow drivers on the trip home. My view is that this is a more or less solved problem; no more laws are required.
2)Suicides: this has dropped, I think, to about half of gun deaths. I don't think it is generally a problem that laws can address. Some laws, e.g. UBC, can actually exacerbate it by making it harder for a family to have a friend store guns if they think a family member ought to be kept away from guns for a while. But for the most part, this is a lack of mental health care/lack of social interaction/lack of hospice care/etc problem. People who genuinely want to die can find a way.
3)Murders: I think the first point here is the objective ought to be reducing murders by any means, not just by any particular means (that's also true of suicides). Having an abusive husband beat his wife to death isn't an improvement on shooting her to death. IIRC a stab wound to the torso has the same fatality risk (about 10%) as a pistol wound to the torso. Getting mugged by someone with a knife isn't an improvement on getting mugged by someone with a gun.
So my view involves focusing less on guns or knives than focusing on violent people. I tend to think long sentences for violent criminals is the best solution, but I'm open to other theories of intense supervision/intervention. One example is the current zero tolerance for domestic violence. I think there is decent evidence that having kids grow up watching Dad beat up Mom (and/or getting beat up themselves) increases their odds of being violent as adults, so stopping that right away is a good thing.
But, IMHO, a lot of what is touted as gun control in the US doesn't have much likelihood of reducing murders, or even gun murders. To take one example, California has pretty intrusive background checks for ammunition purchases. Those are surely a burden on the law abiding, but ... how many murders require more than one 50 round box of ammunition?
The measure of any law ought to be 'how much will this reduce murders/suicides/bad stuff by any means, vs. how much of a burden is it on the innocent'. That's true whether we are talking about guns or knives or cars or booze.
For example: "A series of 100 murderers was examined to discern patterns of substance abuse and intoxication in relation to homicidal events. More than half of the study subjects were found to be actively abusing drugs at the time of their crime, and almost half were intoxicated. Alcohol was the drug most often abused."
'Let's add more gun laws' isn't the only inference one can draw from that.
gun deaths' is imprecise
No it isn't. When I said "gun deaths" I meant, people who died from being shot, whether by suicide, homicide or inadvertence.
Well, OK. But the policy implications for accidents, suicides, and murder don't have a lot of overlap.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to say 'we need to find a solution for accidental deaths', because roofers falling, senior citizens tripping on throw rugs, drownings in backyard pools, overdoses, bicycle accidents, and plane crashes don't have any policy solutions in common.
I'm only going to focus on the murders and accidents, because I couldn't care less about the suicides. That's an issue for the families, not policy makers.
Most murders are inner city gang bangers. You lock them up, and they won't commit crime.
If you're focused on the rare, but shocking, mass shooting, I don't think anything other than civil commitment will really stop those. Society just has to accept those a few times a year.
How about punishing murderers?
Is that not enough?
You're either ignorant or disingenuous, take your pick.
I'm of the opinion that the original meaning of the 2nd amendment was to protect the State Militias from the new US Federal Government.
Attempts to hide self defense under these skirts are pure sophistry.
The 10th amendment and the Privileges or Immunities clause is where you'll find protections for self defense.
Because of that, the states remain sovereign in how they want to regulate the nuances of self defense weaponry. I disagree with bans on magazines larger than 10, but it's not an irrational observation that these magazines might be unnecessary for self defense, so if States (not the Feds) want to regulate them, that's up to the States.
Not anymore, not after the 14th Amendment was ratified.
Prior to that, the only restraint on states on the power to police their own citizens was the prohibition on ex post facto laws.
14A did not change the meaning of 2A.
It did actually, in much the same way as it changed the meaning of the 1st: By extending limitations on federal action to state action.
Prior to the 14th amendment, the 1st amendment required the federal government, but NOT the states, to refrain from legislating on the topic of ("respecting") state churches. This was NOT to ban state churches altogether, it was as much to keep the federal government from messing with states' decisions to have one, as it was to keep the federal government from having one.
But by binding the states, too, to the 1st amendment, 'hands off' became a ban!
Now, the 2nd amendment was supposed to keep the federal government from interfering with state maintenance of militias under any pretext, even though the federal government was given authority "To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia", which might otherwise have been used to render them a nullity. It did this not by putting the militia itself beyond federal interference, but instead by securing a private right to be armed appropriately for the militia, so that militias would remain viable even if the federal government had used that power to organize them aggressively in the negative.
By subjecting the states, too, to the 2nd amendment, they, too, are prohibited from interfering with that private right that acts to secure the viability of militia system even in the teeth of governmental hostility.
Do these so-called high capacity mag bans grandfather in mags acquired before the bans?
I have a bunch of 20 round AR-15 mags that I bought back when they weren't banned either federally or in Massachusetts. They are actually quite handy for target shooting, as they provide a perfect palm rest when shooting offhand.
I don't even know if I can still bring them to the range.
My understanding is that the WA law only bans the import and sale of LCMs, not ownership. If you already own it, you can keep it. But you cannot sell it. Nor if you move into the state bringing your LCMs with you. And IIRC, you cannot even transfer them--even as part of an estate.
Further, this bill was essentially backdoored as an "unfair business practice":
"Distributing, selling, offering for sale, or facilitating the sale, distribution, or transfer of a large capacity magazine online is an unfair or deceptive act or practice or unfair method of competition in the conduct of trade or commerce for purposes of the consumer protection act, chapter 19.86 RCW."
And "distributing" means:
""Distribute" means to give out, provide, make available, or deliver a firearm or large capacity magazine to any person in this state, with or without consideration, whether the distributor is in state or out-of-state. "Distribute" includes, but is not limited to, filling orders placed in this state, online or otherwise. "Distribute" also includes causing a firearm or large capacity magazine to be delivered in this state."
Key part is "give out, provide, make available, or deliver a ... large capacity magazine to any person in this state, with our without consideration ...."
So, if you have one, you'll die with it and your kids won't get it.