The Volokh Conspiracy
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Deportation for "Pro-Palestine or Anti-Israel Political Speech" May Violate the First Amendment, Court Holds
[1.] From today's decision by Judge William Young (D. Mass.) in American Ass'n of Univ. Profs. v. Rubio:
This case raises the issue of whether certain Public Officials can enforce a policy of arresting, detaining and deporting non-citizens who are otherwise here legally based solely upon their pro-Palestine or anti-Israel political speech….
The court allowed plaintiffs' First Amendment challenges to go forward:
Although this case raises novel First Amendment issues and the precise scope of the ideological-deportation policy challenged by the Plaintiffs is not yet clear, at the motion to dismiss stage the Plaintiffs' First Amendment claims survive.
It is well established that noncitizens have at least some First Amendment rights, see Bridges v. Wixon (1945), and political speech is "at the core of what the First Amendment is designed to protect." Although case law defining the scope of noncitizens' First Amendment rights is notably sparse, the Plaintiffs have at least plausibly alleged that noncitizens, including lawful permanent residents, are being targeted specifically for exercising their right to political speech. See American-Arab Anti-Discrim. Comm. v. Reno (9th Cir. 1995), rev'd on other grounds ("The Supreme Court … has accorded to aliens living in the United States those protections of the Bill of Rights that are not, by the text of the Constitution, restricted to citizens."); OPAWL – Building AAPI Feminist Leadership v. Yost (6th Cir. 2024) ("Lawful permanent residents have First Amendment rights…. [T]hey have developed sufficient connections with the United States to be considered part of the national community: They live and work here lawfully, and they can serve in the military."); United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez (1990) ("[A]liens receive constitutional protections when they have come within the territory of the United States and developed substantial connections with this country."); but see Price v. United States Immigr. & Naturalization Serv. (9th Cir. 1991). The Plaintiffs have also clarified that they do not mean to bring a selective prosecution challenge, but rather contend "that Defendants are deporting people on the basis of their viewpoints alone."
Contrary to what the Public Officials contend, this Court cannot agree that this alleged conduct would be constitutional. See Abourezk v. Reagan (D.D.C. 1984) ("[Public Officials] may not, consistent with the First Amendment, deny [noncitizens] entry solely on account of the content of their speech."), vacated on other grounds (D.C. Cir. 1986). The Public Officials' reliance on case law from the height of the second Red Scare era, such as Harisiades v. Shaughnessy (1952), is misplaced, and this Court assumes instead that noncitizens lawfully present in the United States have at least the core rights protected by the First Amendment, chief among them the right to speak on political subjects at least where such speech poses no immediate threat to others. See American Arab Anti-Discrim. Comm. v. Meese (C.D. Cal. 1989) (collecting cases holding that noncitizens have First Amendment rights, holding that noncitizens retain these rights in the deportation setting, and observing that in Harisiades, "the Supreme Court applied to aliens the same First Amendment test then applicable to citizens," which has since changed), aff'd in part, rev'd in part sub nom. American-Arab Anti-Discrim. Comm. v. Thornburgh (9th Cir. 1991); see also Keyishian v. Board of Regents (1967) (holding a state law denying employment to members of subversive organizations, without requiring proof of knowledge and intent respecting the organizations' illegal objectives, unconstitutional); Holder v. Humanitarian L. Project (2010) (upholding application of statute criminalizing material support of terrorism to groups providing any material support to designated terrorist groups, including legal training and political advocacy done in coordination with them, but noting that the Court "in no way suggest[s] that a regulation of independent speech would pass constitutional muster, even if the Government were to show that such speech benefits foreign terrorist organizations")….
Here's my summary of the caselaw on the subject from a February post, which illustrates how the precedents are indeed split on the matter:
The leading case, Harisiades v. Shaughnessy, 342 U.S. 580 (1952), speaks about nearly unlimited Congressional power over deportation, but that language is in the section dealing with the argument that the deportation of Harisiades violated the Due Process Clause. The First Amendment discussion rested on the conclusion that active membership in the Communist Party was substantively unprotected by the First Amendment—both for citizens and noncitizens—which was the law at the time (see Dennis v. United States (1951)).
Lower court cases are mixed. For the view that Harisiades doesn't generally let the government act based on otherwise protected speech by aliens, see American-Arab Anti-Discrim. Comm. v. Reno, 70 F.3d 1045 (9th Cir. 1995), rev'd on other grounds, 525 U.S. 471 (1999):
[T]he Court has explicitly stated that "[f]reedom of speech and of press is accorded aliens residing in this country." … Furthermore, the values underlying the First Amendment require the full applicability of First Amendment rights to the deportation setting. Thus, "read properly, Harisiades establishes that deportation grounds are to be judged by the same standard applied to other burdens on First Amendment rights."
See also Parcham v. INS, 769 F.2d 1001 (4th Cir. 1985). For the view that the federal government generally has nearly unlimited immigration power over aliens, see Price v. INS, 962 F.2d 836 (9th Cir. 1991):
[T]he protection afforded resident aliens may be limited…. [T]he Court has historically afforded Congress great deference in the area of immigration and naturalization…. "[I]n the exercise of its broad power over immigration and naturalization, 'Congress regularly makes rules that would be unacceptable if applied to citizens.'" [A]lthough Price [as a lawful permanent resident] is justified in expecting the greatest degree of constitutional protection afforded a non-citizen, the protection afforded him under the First Amendment certainly is not greater than that of the citizen plaintiffs in Kleindienst [whose First Amendment claims were rejected -EV].
See also Bluman v. FEC (D.C.C. 2011) (Kavanaugh, J.), aff'd without opinion (U.S. 2012): "The Court has further indicated that aliens' First Amendment rights might be less robust than those of citizens in certain discrete areas. See Harisiades."
[2.] In the process, Judge Young concluded that the court has jurisdiction, notwithstanding certain statutory limits imposed by federal immigration statutes, and that plaintiffs had standing:
On balance, drawing all factual inferences in their favor, at least the AAUP and MESA [Middle East Studies Association] have associational standing to challenge the allegedly objective chill on their noncitizen members' speech. Although they have downplayed this standing argument in their supporting briefs, the Plaintiffs have alleged facts supporting a plausible inference that reasonable noncitizen members of the Plaintiff organizations would self-censor in response to the challenged policy based on a credible threat of enforcement, which amounts to an objective chill….
The experiences of five anonymous AAUP members and two anonymous MESA members, all lawful permanent residents and professors or lecturers, are described in the complaint, with particularized allegations that these members have stopped assigning materials or teaching formerly-offered classes touching on Israel and Palestine, turned down opportunities to write and speak on related matters, canceled conference and other plans, removed related previously published writing and scholarship from the internet, declined leadership and event opportunities within their organizations, ceased traveling abroad or departed the country, and stopped associating or protesting, all out of fear of potential retaliatory deportation if they engage in political speech….
Instead of emphasizing the chill on their noncitizen members' speech, the Plaintiffs have stressed their citizen members' right to hear from and associate with noncitizens, citing Kleindenst v. Mandel (1972) for the proposition that the right to hear and to receive information and ideas is protected by the First Amendment. The Plaintiffs are not wrong to invoke their citizen members' right to hear and to receive information, particularly given that the First Amendment is "nowhere more vital than in our schools and universities," nor of course their right to associate, but they point to no authority for the extension of what amounts to a kind of right-to-consortium claim to the right to hear from and associate with potential deportees. Mandel involved an individual would-be speaker who was invited to speak by particular would-be hearers and refused entry, lending support to the Public Officials' argument that the harm to the citizen members' rights is too attenuated because no specific member is alleged to have been deprived by the government of the opportunity to hear from or associate with a specific noncitizen.
The Plaintiffs' "right to hear" argument, therefore, while non-frivolous, asks this Court to take an apparently unprecedented creative leap: to rule that one may sue for being deprived of the right to hear from another, due to an objective chill on another's speech. Without ruling that such a theory, or a similar theory based on freedom of association, could not properly be advanced, this Court instead rests its ruling that the AAUP and MESA have associational standing on the Plaintiffs' own noncitizen members' objectively chilled speech….
[3.] The court also allowed plaintiffs' claim that the deportation policy violates the Administrative Procedure Act to go forward. But the court rejected plaintiffs' Due Process Clause vagueness challenge, on the grounds that such "challenges have not been extended beyond the statutory sphere or, at most, to written rules and regulations," and don't apply to the unwritten policies that the plaintiffs are challenging.
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It was not that long ago that the US university system was the envy of the world. We had our pick of the best and the brightest since so many students and scholars wanted to come here.
But no more. The "You're not Welcome" sign has been prominently displayed. While I wish the plaintiffs well, the damage has already been done. We are no longer #1.
To elaborate:
Freedom of expression is a core American value. It's a big reason why so many talented academics want to come here - you can say what you think without worrying about the government punishing you for having contrary opinions. That's not available everywhere else.
And now it's not available here.
Yes, the plaintiffs should prevail; none of the ten amendments in the original bill of rights uses the word "citizen" so claiming that legal non-citizen residents are not covered by the bill of rights would seem to be a mis-reading.
Tye First Amendment and certain others usesthe term “the people” as distinct from other amendments that use the broader word “person.” It’s a thing. See my comment below.
Yes. The 1A establishes "...the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
But it doesn't qualify the other rights with "the people".
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press..."
Trying to graft "the people" onto the first three rights in 1A seems like a futile exercise in tendentiousness. And we're talking about freedom of speech here. Maybe you can say legal residents can be deported for going to a rally and say they have no standing to "petition for redress", but 1A free speech rights are not reserved for only citizens.
I understand that, but I think the starting place is Congress's plenary power to regulate immigration under Article I, Section 8, Clause 4. The question presented is may Congress restrict speech rights in exchange for granting aliens entry, which is a privilege over which Congress has unfettered power. I think the answer is yes as long as the only enforcement remedy is deportation, as opposed to criminal punishment. If the Court ultimately holds otherwise, either this Congress or a future Congress will understandably be tempted to establish exceedingly restrictive entry requirements in order to avoid having to indulge noncitizens airing views it finds inimical to the interests of the United States.
Congress has plenty of plenary powers under Article I, but the Amendments to the Constitution still restrict how Congress can use that power. So for example Congress has the power to grant trademarks (a.k.a. to "secur[e] for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries"), but can't choose to exercise that power in a manner that interferes with the free speech rights guaranteed by the First Amendment (Iancu v. Brunetti, Matal v. Tam).
Yet, it is well-established that constitutional rights can be waived by citizens in exchange for legal privileges to which they would not otherwise be entitled. Certainly, that must be true for non-citizens. If Congress can deny any alien entry for any reason, surely it can deny entry to an alien who refuses to agree to waive speech rights as long as the only punishment for violating such agreement is deportation.
Can Congress grant entry to someone only on the condition that he converts to being Baptist after he arrives?
Excellent question. I'm not sure, but I think the answer is no, not because it would violate the free-exercise clause, which is a right that might be waived, but because it would violate the establishment clause, which is not an individual right waivable or otherwise. But I concede I'm really not sure. And I accept your point (below) that the adoption of the 1A subsequent to Article 1 combined with the 1A's unusually absolutist ("abridge"!) language presents a serious rebuttal to my argument. But I'm still convinced that Congress has sweeping powers regarding who to let in and under what conditions, even if perhaps 1A waivers would be an impermissible condition. Assuming that very last point is so, do you agree Congress could just then not admit anyone whose beliefs it determined it didn't prefer?
One need not go all the way to the extreme of Prof. Somin (who sometimes argues that Congress has no control over immigration) to note that it's sort of weird to read a "plenary power" over immigration into a provision that doesn't even mention immigration.
And of course the 1A was ratified after Article 1, Section 8, and doesn't say, "no law… except with respect to immigrants."
I agree with this. Physical presence in this country by non-citizens is sui generis. It is inherent in sovereignty that the government has an absolute right to expel non-citizens for any or no reason and that a non-citizen does not have standing to contest a deportation.
I would expect to be treated no differently in another country. I can only join the club with the permission of the current members.
While a "right of refusal/expulsion" is inherent in sovereignty, our government was instituted with limitations imposed upon its sovereignty by its citizens in the form of the Constitution and its Amendments. Due to the existence of such limitations, there is no absolute right to expel for "no reason."
In this case, the 1st Amendment is the relevant limitation, eliminating the reasons stated for which these persons could be expelled. And the person certainly has standing, as they are the directly impacted person, and all "persons" must be granted due process (citizenship not required for due process)
That's simply question begging. The burden is on you to show that anyone who we let in automatically has powerful enough rights that we can't eject them. That goes against all history and tradition of sovereign governments and has no support in our history. Aliens are in every country at sufferance.
The term "due process" is in vogue today, but it is amorphous. One is only entitled to process that is "due." And there is none due for an alien we want expelled.
Powerful enough rights? What's that threshold look like? Does the due process reliance interest bestowed by a greencard have sufficient units of Rights Power to overcome? What about a work visa whose requirements you have followed?
But jb156's point is that even if deportation is allowed, that doesn't mean you can't deport for impermissible reasons. Congress shall make no law doesn't say it only applies to citizens. And the Founders knew how to write the word citizens.
"One is only entitled to process that is 'due.' And there is none due for an alien we want expelled."
That is horseshit, (im)pure and simple, wvattorney13. As I have commented elsewhere on this thread, the Supreme Court on April 10, 2025 expressly affirmed a District Court"order [which] properly requires the Government to 'facilitate' Abrego Garcia’s release from custody in El Salvador and to ensure that his case is handled as it would have been had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador." https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a949_lkhn.pdf
SCOTUS has also opined on April 7, 2025:
These recent decisions, read in pari materia with prior SCOTUS decisions holding more generally that "[t]he fundamental requirement of due process is the opportunity to be heard 'at a meaningful time and in a meaningful manner'", Mathews v. Eldridge, 424 U.S. 319, 333 (1976), indicate that an alien detainee whom the government seeks to deport is entitled to notice sufficient to allow him to seek judicial review by habeas corpus of the removal decision and, in the event he seeks habeas review, to remain present in the United States until the habeas court holds a hearing or determines based on record evidence that the detainee is not entitled to a hearing.
"It is inherent in sovereignty that the government has an absolute right to expel non-citizens for any or no reason and that a non-citizen does not have standing to contest a deportation."
Interesting take on what you think the law ought to be. It seems to be at odds with the current case law, but you're welcome to your opinion, no matter how much it conflicts with the plain language of the first amendment.
I'd suggest contacting whatever institution granted your law degree and politely asking for your money back.
"I understand that, but I think the starting place is Congress's plenary power to regulate immigration under Article I, Section 8, Clause 4. The question presented is may Congress restrict speech rights in exchange for granting aliens entry, which is a privilege over which Congress has unfettered power. I think the answer is yes as long as the only enforcement remedy is deportation, as opposed to criminal punishment. If the Court ultimately holds otherwise, either this Congress or a future Congress will understandably be tempted to establish exceedingly restrictive entry requirements in order to avoid having to indulge noncitizens airing views it finds inimical to the interests of the United States."
Wrong. The First Amendment does not prohibit the federal government from denying an alien entry into the United States based on his prior speech or expression. Kleindienst v. Mandel, 408 U.S. 753 (1972). Once admitted, however, the analysis changes. As Justice Douglas wrote for the Court in Bridges v. Wixon, 326 U.S. 135, (1945):
This is true regardless of whether an alien's initial entry was lawful or not. "It is true that aliens who have once passed through our gates, even illegally, may be expelled only after proceedings conforming to traditional standards of fairness encompassed in due process of law." Shaughnessy v. U.S. ex rel. Mezei, 345 U.S. 206, 212 (1953).
Your rights are vested in you by fact of your beating heart. The aren't granted by anyone or any group, though they are, sadly, often abriged.
That doesn't mean you can waltz over the border (maybe some reverse waltzing to clear out some corrupt dictatorships would be nice) but ejection for impermissible reasons is a sketchy argument.
I really like how safe it is in university cultures to have the freedom to express conservative views!
You’re a racist and insufferable piece of shit. I don’t care what you do or don’t like.
Yet you just showed you do care.
You talkin’ to me?
In terms that the maga faithful might relate, higher ed was at least not something for which the US had a trade deficit. It brought foreign money and trade to the US. Now, other countries will get that business. But, if it diminishes the power of the woke elite academic institutions, maga probably thinks that the destruction of the US university system is worth it.
https://archive.is/5DUt5
It was not that long ago that the US university system was the envy of the world.
101 days ago, if memory serves.
The economy too:
https://www.economist.com/special-report/2024-10-19
Now, 101 days later, the rest of the world has no such envy for the US economy.
Parkinsonian Joe’s memory maybe
"But no more."
Ok Chicken Little
Our significantly higher salaries will continue to get plenty of scholars.
Students want to go to an English language college in a country with a pleasant life style. So that leaves Australia, Canada, New Zealand and UK, none of which has the student slots needed.
None of which arbitrarily seize people and throw them out of the country with no notice because of something they said or because they got a traffic ticket, either.
Really?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/11/28/australia-passes-harsh-new-anti-migration-laws
Really. Where do you see anything there about "arbitrarily seiz[ing] people and throw[ing] them out of the country with no notice because of something they said or because they got a traffic ticket"?
You sure?
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/uk-university-essex-drops-case-against-students-sharing-middle-east-eye-posts
This is the closest to relevant, except for the part where this involved university discipline, not the justice system, and also did not involve "arbitrarily seiz[ing] people and throw[ing] them out of the country with no notice because of something they said or because they got a traffic ticket."
And of course..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal
And, of course, that also has nothing to do with "arbitrarily seiz[ing] people and throw[ing] them out of the country with no notice because of something they said or because they got a traffic ticket."
“ It was not that long ago that the US university system was the envy of the world.”
Then the rest of the world can have it.
We still shouldn’t deport people for their speech though.
Bridges v. Wixon by its terms applied specifically to legal residents of the United States. United States v. Verdigo-Irquidez likewise defined “the people” as including citizens and lawful permanent residence.
The Trump administration is mistaken in claiming it can simply cancel a green card withouf a hearing and the person magically stops being a permanent resident. But nonetheless, there is precedent suggesting that non-permanent legal resident aliens, such as people on tourist or student visas or people not here legally, could be subjected to deportation for their views.
The First Amendment grants only “the people” the right to peacably assemble and petition for a redress of grievances. This right, like the right too keep and bear arms and certain other constitutional rights, is not given to those not members of “the people.”
Rumeysa Ozturk didn't even assemble, peaceably or otherwise. She's been jailed and her visa revoked purely for political speech.
Right. And she's also a legal resident, and therefore one of "the people" who do have the right to peaceably assemble, assuming I'm reading Bridges v. Wixon correctly.
So, I'm not exactly sure where this line or criticism is going.
She's (or at least she was) a student visa holder, not a green card holder / permanent resident. Ergo, not part of "the people" in your construct, but still someone who's been jailed for pure speech.
Is she confined because she refuses to be deported?
The Free Speech clause doesn't reference "the people."
With respect, I disagree. Congress expressly gave the SecState the authority to revoke visas or green cards based on our foreign policy interests that he (the SecState), and he alone, determines. Understandable why they did that back in 1952.
SecState Rubio is well within his rights. He can better decide what our foreign policy interests are, better than any unelected judge.
Helpful to remember the backdrop: a Judeocidal terror group, hamas, currently holds a US citizen, Edan Alexander, hostage (and is torturing him daily). The pro-hamas rallies on college campuses are directly oppositional to our current negotiations to free Edan Alexander.
Their (foreign nationals) advocacy for hamas is their death knell. They will be deported from this country, and never return. They can cheer for hamas from their home country, and live their life outside this country.
While most of the time I say immigrants have very few constitutional rights and their rights if any are generally statutory, here there is some caselaw saying that permanent legal residents in particular have some constitutional rights. United States v. Verdigo-Irquidez, 494 U.S. 259 (1990), does say that the constittutional amendments that mention “the people,” including the First Amendment, cover legal permanent residents.
https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/service/ll/usrep/usrep494/usrep494259/usrep494259.pdf
Fun fact of the day: Congress can't pass laws that violate the first amendment.
The law in question was upheld in Harisiades v. shaugnessy back in 1952. So the administration’s legal argument is not frivolous. Verdugo-Irquidez was a 4th Amendment case, so its statements about the other amendments like the First are dicta. I think the Court will stand by its general approach to the term “the people.” But that’s just my opinion.
The Court's First Amendment analysis in that case is based on the fact that the Communist party advocated for the violent overthrow of the US government, and that therefore membership in the Communist party wasn't protected speech. While maybe you could argue that it leaves the question open, the Court didn't make the argument that the political branches' power over immigration and deportation would supersede the First Amendment in general or that the First Amendment wasn't applicable to aliens.
Once again, Harisiades says that non-citizens can be ejected for unprotected speech. It did not say that they could be ejected for protected speech.
Harisiades was a legal permanent resident. So while, under the interpretation you are giving it, it may further clarify that legal permanent residents have First Amendment rights, I’m not sure that it’s so clear as to aliens who are not.
"Congress expressly gave the SecState the authority to revoke visas or green cards based on our foreign policy interests that he (the SecState), and he alone, determines. Understandable why they did that back in 1952."
Wrong, XY. SCOTUS long ago opined that:
See ReaderY cite above. The law remains the law. What you have a problem with is personal accountability and enforcing the law, NG.
XY, it has been established for 222 years now that a federal statute which conflicts with the Constitution is void:
Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 137, 177-178 (1803). No one who is not named Josh Blackman has proposed relitigating Marbury.
The Japanese Immigrant Case is hardly a model precedent. In the case, the Court upheld expelling the alien after what the alien thought an interogation in a language she didn’t understand. The fact that she wasn’t given NOTICEZ that she had a right to present her own case rather than just answer the immigration officer’s question was of no moment; it’s her job to understand the law. And the immigration officer could hardly be faulted for her ignorance of English; if an alien comes to those country without understanding it, that’s the alien’s problem.
The immigration officer talked to her: she had an opportunity to tell him her story if she had cared to. That means she got her hearing. And if she wasn’t aware it was a hearing and she wasn’t aware of what he was saying, that’s all her problem. Out she goes.
As the Supreme Court said in the case, Due Process for an immigrant consists solely of the opportunity to talk to an immigration officer and tell her side of the story in English. It doesn’t require notice of any kind, an interpreter, a lawyer, a neutral tribunal, or for the alien and immigration officer to able to understand each other. And unless Congress says otherwise, the immigration officer’s word is final and completely unreviewable by the courts.
That’s the Due Process the Constitution gives aliens apprehended at the border.
The notion of what process is due in a given situation has evolved a bit since 1903. See Mathews v. Eldridge, 424 U.S. 319, 334-335 (1976):
I have cited Yamataya in response to doofus commenters who insist that aliens are entitled to no due process at all regarding deportation.
Your problem is Reno v. Flores, which reiterated that aliens who are here temporarily or illegally are entitled to only limited due process. It cited the Japanese Immigrant Case as still holding that this is so.
No, they're not.
We have a difference of opinion. That is Ok, it isn't the first time you've been wrong. 😉
XY, as Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously said, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
I would add that opinions are like assholes. Everyone has (at least) one. They often stink. And neither one's opinion nor one's asshole should be offered casually.
Interesting that the court rejected the vagueness challenge; void-for-vagueness was, as far as I can recall, one of the primary grounds on which judge Maryann Trump Barry found unconstitutional the INA clauses that have been used to justify DOS revoking students' visas and green cards over the past couple of months, in Massieu v. Reno 915 F.Supp. 681 (1996).
I think Justice Barry is in general wrong on this. Supreme Court precedent really does give the political branches a great deal of discretion. Visas can be revoked out of pure foreign policy considersations. In general, Congress can (if it wants) give the President ulmost unlimited discretion in matters of foreign policy. Nothing requires our foreign policy to be clearly articulated. We don’t have to say in advance the specific circumstances under which we will retaliate against another country. Reducing or eliminating a country’s citizens ability to enter this country is as much a tool of foreign policy as tarriffs, boycotts, war, etc. etc. etc.
Congress can cerainly require greater due process including greater notice if it wants to. In many cases, it has. But in some cases, it hasn’t. Immigration cases are largely decided based on the interpretation of statutes, including the rights granted by them (or not).
Massieu was reversed by the Third Circuit for the plaintiff's failure to exhaust administrative remedies, which did not reach the merits of the plaintiff's claims. Massieu v. Reno, 91 F.3d 416, 417 (3d Cir. 1996) ("We do not reach the merits of the constitutional questions decided by the district court. Instead, we hold that the district lacked jurisdiction to entertain plaintiff's claims.")
The District Court there had sua sponte raised the question of whether the statute is so devoid of standards to cabin the Secretary of State's discretion that it represents an unconstitutional delegation of legislative power to the executive. Judge Barry concluded:
915 F.Supp. at 711.
This is patently absurd. Aliens have no due process rights to remain in this country. They have no rights enforceable by the federal courts to allow them to reside here to advocate for any cause. Another gross overreach by the federal courts.
Aliens have no due process rights to remain in this country.
According to the Supreme Court they do. 9-0 just a few weeks ago. And that was for alien enemies who entered illegally! Legal permanent residents certainly do.
They have no rights enforceable by the federal courts to allow them to reside here to advocate for any cause.
According to the Supreme Court they do! You're just a wannabe fascist.
Fascism
: A far-right ultranationalist political ideology characterized by a dictatorial leader, militarism, suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, and subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation.Sounds pretty much exactly like what RivaGPT was trained on.
Fascism was Mussolini's socialist political party and government.
Nazism was Hitler's socialist political party and governing system.
Your pseudo definition doesn't distinguish either of those from Communism.
Lefties hate it when one of their kind turns out to be found evil by the world.
Mussolini wrote “Fascism is opposed to Socialism,” so try again.
I often wonder how people like Stupid above deal with the fact that every neo-fascist worldwide is from the Right. Every neo-nazi comes from the Right. Lovers of Hitler all come from the Right. Lovers of Mussolini all come from the Right.
The people who worship that kind of evil are always Rightists. Thus Stupid's own pseudo definition runs smack into reality.
Richard Spencer claims/is credited being "right-wing."
I looked into what he wants -- socialism, for white people.
BARF
There is NO such thing as right wing socialism.
OWN IT
The Nazis were not socialists you moron. Hitler rose to power in that party and perverted it. They were plainly fascists. That’s right wing.
Oh look! It's everyone's favorite game: everyone who disagrees with me is a fascist!
I disagree with Riva about due process rights. Aliens have exactly the rights given to them via statute. So they are entitled to some amount of due process.
I also disagree that thinking otherwise makes one a fascist. Especially here, because the plaintiffs are (once again) trying to get the Bill of Rights applied to proceedings to which they do not necessarily apply--repeating the first term immigration executive order Kamikaze attempt. But we now also get to play the disparate impact game, since no law requires the secretary of state to explain WHY revoking the visa/green card is in the foreign policy interest of the United States, and no court can read his mind.
"... no law requires the secretary of state to explain WHY revoking the visa/green card is in the foreign policy interest of the United States"
IANAL, but my understanding is that if the statute says official X can do Y if it is in the foreign policy interest of the United States, if that action is challenged (i.e. due process) then official X would need to present some plausible reason why it is in the foreign policy interest of the United States.
Isn't that how court proceedings are supposed to proceed? "My client has his reasons, but we don't have to tell you what they are, and since you're not a mind reader you will never know." sounds like a poor approach in court. But again, IANAL.
The bot's programmed position is that the president — at least when named Donald Trump — has more power than the North Korean dictator. He is immune from criminal prosecution, the courts can't stop him if he ignores the law, he can do whatever he wants if he calls it national security or foreign policy, and nobody has any rights.
I no longer wonder whether you’re just an obnoxious child playing lawyer. Pretty convinced right now. I sure wish your parents would step in and impose a little discipline. They probably spoiled you as a toddler and that has detrimentally affected your adolescence.
Not really all that convincing on the “fascist” insult ,little Randy, when everything inflicted on the country by Biden and his government thugs reeked of fascism, yet you clowns cheered him on. And, just so you know, a policy doesn’t become fascist just because you don’t like it, even if you highlight words in magenta. Are there any adults commenting on this site?
As for due process, you’re rather confused. The S.Ct in no way held that an alien, let alone an illegal, has a due process right to remain in this country simply by noting they may be entitled to a hearing on whether they are enemy aliens.
The S.Ct in no way held that an alien, let alone an illegal, has a due process right to remain in this country simply by noting they may be entitled to a hearing on whether they are enemy aliens.
What do you think due process means if not "entitled to a hearing?"
What it doesn’t mean is that an alien, illegal or otherwise, has right to reside in this country. You think any foreigner overstaying a visa, let alone an illegal jumping over a border wall, has a due process right to make this country their home? That’s insane.
Nobody thinks that. That's the dumbest VC strawman I've heard these many years.
That’s essentially exactly what you are contending, you just don’t understand the implications of your own argument.
Riva, the Supreme Court on April 10, 2025 expressly affirmed a District Court"order [which] properly requires the Government to 'facilitate' Abrego Garcia’s release from custody in El Salvador and toensure that his case is handled as it would have been had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador." (Emphasis added.) https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a949_lkhn.pdf
SCOTUS has also opined on April 7, 2025:
These recent decisions, read in pari materi with prior SCOTUS decisions holding more generally that "[t]he fundamental requirement of due process is the opportunity to be heard 'at a meaningful time and in a meaningful manner'", Mathews v. Eldridge, 424 U.S. 319, 333 (1976), indicate that an alien detainee whom the government seeks to deport is entitled to notice sufficient to allow him to seek judicial review by habeas corpus of the removal decision and, in the event he seeks habeas review, to remain present in the United States until the habeas court holds a hearing or determines based on record evidence that the detainee is not entitled to a hearing.
Asshats like Riva do not actually understand what due process means. I appreciate you trying to explain it with thoughtful citations. But you’re spitting in the wind.
The Enemy Alien Act gives enemy aliens a statutory right to challenge their designation. The Act contains a whole section on judicial proceedings. While the wording appears to be limited to cases where a citizen files a complaint in court alleging someone is an alien enemy and asking the court to order the person’s removal, that’s perhaps because there were no immigration officers to enforce the law in 1798. Courts subsequently interpreted the Act as providing for a judicial hearing in all cases, with the alien having the right to do challenge an administrative determination by petitionng for a writ of habeas corpus.
This means alien enemies get more process than many others. In the Japanese Immigrant Case, the Supreme Court said that aliens in general have no right to judicial review unless Congress provides otherwise. The AEA in this represent represents something of an exception.
You better update Wikipedia then, it seems to be incorrect!
Wikipedia incorrect? No fucking way!
suppression of opposition
That's done by all systems, including, unfortunately, democracies.
"This is patently absurd. Aliens have no due process rights to remain in this country. They have no rights enforceable by the federal courts to allow them to reside here to advocate for any cause. Another gross overreach by the federal courts."
That is a crock of shit, Riva. Everyone present in the United States, whether lawfully or not, is entitled to due process. "It is well established that the Fifth Amendment entitles aliens to due process of law in deportation proceedings." Reno v. Flores, 507 U.S. 292, 306 (1993).
"Aliens, even aliens whose presence in this country is unlawful, have long been recognized as 'persons' guaranteed due process of law by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments." Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202, 210 (1982).
"It is true that aliens who have once passed through our gates, even illegally, may be expelled only after proceedings conforming to traditional standards of fairness encompassed in due process of law." Shaughnessy v. U.S. ex rel. Mezei, 345 U.S. 206, 212 (1953).
"Therefore it is not competent for the Secretary of the Treasury or any executive officer, at any time within the year limited by the statute, arbitrarily to cause an alien who has entered the country, and has become subject in all respects to its jurisdiction, and a part of its population, although alleged to be illegally here, to be taken into custody and deported without giving him all opportunity to be heard upon the questions involving his right to be and remain in the United States. No such arbitrary power can exist where the principles involved in due process of law are recognized." Yamataya v. Fisher (Japanese Immigrant Case), 189 U.S. 86, 101 (1903).
As recently as this month, the Supreme Court opined:
Trump v. J.G.G., et al., 604 U. S. ____ (April 7, 2025) https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a931_2c83.pdf
Riva once more illustrates the wisdom of Ron White's maxim: "You can't fix stupid!"
Sounds more like Poe's law to me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law
I have wondered before whether Riva is a parody commenter whose tripe is designed to illustrate just how ridiculous the MAGA cult is.
See my comment above. The Japanese Immigrant Case held that the process due an alien apprehended at the border isn’t very much, with only a right to tell one’s case to an immigration officers. And Reno v. Flores mostly upheld this. It cited the Japanese Immigrant case to support the proposition that at least when apprehended without having previously been lawfully admitted, aliens’ Due Process rights do not include a right of judicial review, and not giving them a right to challenge their deportation in court is therefore not a suspension of the writ of habeas corpus.
aliens’ Due Process rights do not include a right of judicial review
I feel as though you've misstated this twice. The Japanese Immigrant Case held that some aliens don't have a right to judicial review of the decision to deport them, but that they do have the right to judicial review of the process used to arrive at that decision. So... that's seems more like a right to judicial review than not.
Considering how incredibly perfunctory the hearing in the Japanese Immigrant Case was - the immigrant, who spoke poor or no English, wasn’t aware of what the immigration officer was telling her, wasn’t aware the immigration officer’s interogation constituted a hearing, and couldn’t meaningfully communicate with him - and yet the Supreme Court still said this was all the process she was due, it’s on aliens to understand our laws and our language if rhey want to come here, not doing so is their problem, and the immigration officer’s decision after speaking with her is unreviewble by the courts - the Japanese Immigrant case might better be described as standing for the proposition that immigrants at point of entry are entitled to almost no process at all. Extremely little is due them. Not absolutely nothing. But not much. A right to a hearimg, yes. But no right to any notice (or even to be made aware that what’s happening is a hearing), no right to a lawyer, no right to an interpreter, no right to understand the proceedings, no right to be understood.
The law of procedural process has evolved quite a bit since 1903, ReaderY. As SCOTUS opined on April 7, 2025:
Trump v. J.G.G., et al., 604 U. S. ____ (2025); https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a931_2c83.pdf
Your repeated minimization of what process is due hasn't spooked the words off the page, nor the pixels off the monitor.
People have a right to be stupid hateful bigots.
Countries have a right to decide who they will allow to become citizens (or utilize our educational systems.)
We are in no way obliged to allow entry to those who oppose all that is good and holy -- we have enough homegrown Democrats to fill that position.
The future, I see, a suspension of the right (or is it “writ”?) of Habeus Corpus, for certain undesirable peoples
3 of our greatest POTUS’s did it, everyone remembers Honest Abe, who were the other 2?
Frank
False. One POTUS did it. Two or three Congresses did it depending on whatcha wanna count.
Basically everyone agrees that what Lincoln did was illegal. They also agree that the Civil War was at hand.
While Trump certainly seems to be angling for Civil War II, I recommend against.
Wrong, Grant and FDR did also, and as Judge Judy says “basically” marks you as a moron and should be translated as “Duh”
I dare you, I double dog dare you to find a case of me saying “basically” (or its inbred siblings “at the end of the day” and “back in the day”
And Lincoln’s rep seems to be OK, FDRs also, what monument is your face on?
I doubt I could find any instances of you using any moderating language. Part of your idiot persona. Grant and FDR didn't suspend habeas, Congress did.
Congress granted the territorial governor of Hawaii the authority to suspend habeas and declare martial law in the event of an invasion, and he did so after Pearl Harbor. The Supreme Court in Duncan v. Kohanamoku held that this was perfectly legitimate in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor, but some time in the years between Pearl Harbor and when Kohanamoku was arrested, the imminent danger creating the rationale for the suspension had lapsed and the suspension stopped being constitutionally valid.
So even the right to suspend habeas might potentially be delegatable in an emergency, but the existence of a genuine emergency is reviewable by the courts.
Truman didn’t issue a new proclamation. But he continued to enforce Roosevelt’s.
Will they be made up people like your persona you perform here?
So your name is “Malika the Maiz”??
I need it for dat rent check I’ll have for you tomorrow, next day, I don’t know,
Don’t cash it right away, Nome Sane?
Frank
Your pretend persona has confused a handle with a persona. I know you perform him as an idiot but you may want to do a rewrite.
Whether this violated the letter of First Amendment law or not it certainly seems to violate the spirit.
If they don't comport,
we must deport.
Aliens are not part of We the People. They are guests. And guests don't get to tell their hosts whether they can stay or not.
SO ??? What's the natural law principle here
"Saint Thomas affirms that not all immigrants are equal. Every nation has the right to decide which immigrants are beneficial, that is, “peaceful,” to the common good. As a matter of self-defense, the State can reject those criminal elements, traitors, enemies and others who it deems harmful or “hostile” to its citizens."
You are just parading great ignorance here, not just of common sense but of bedrock of our law.
And the Founders were in full agreement
"It follows from this theory of consent that the whole people must consent to each
individual’s membership in that society. As Gouverneur Morris argued in the
Convention, “every society from a great nation down to a club had the right of declaring
the conditions on which new members should be admitted.”23 The United States
Constitution grants to Congress the power “to establish an uniform Rule of
Naturalization.” The people have delegated to Congress the power to fix the terms under
which America will consent to an immigrant become a member of the American political
community. If the immigrant wishes to become a citizen and chooses to abide by those
conditions, then citizenship shall be conferred upon him. The American people are
collectively represented by their government, which speaks for them, through the law, in
deciding who shall be admitted as a new member of the political community.
Mutual or reciprocal consent is dictated by the principle of natural equality. If an
immigrant can successfully impose himself on a political community, in violation of its
laws, then the relation between the immigrant and the community is not a relationship of
equals. The immigrant is establishing himself as the rightful superior, as he has the power
to dictate, unilaterally, the terms of the contract between himself and the community,
without the community’s consent. I"
If an immigrant can successfully impose himself on a political community, in violation of its laws, then the relation between the immigrant and the community is not a relationship of equals.
What laws do you think these immigrants violated, exactly?
You don't think there are any laws about national residency? Is it strange to you that countries have laws that dictate who can come in live in them?
There are of course such laws. The people discussed in the article followed those laws, when they obtained legal visas or green cards and complied with the laws of our country once they were here. So again: what laws did they allegedly violate?
Why are you conflating immigration and naturalization?
The credibility of the judicial branch takes another self-inflicted hit.
"right to speak on political subjects at least where such speech poses no immediate threat to others"
Yes. However, the government need not be so shy with guests as it might be with elected officials (and other citizens) who use provocative/instigating speech which leads to violence and reasonable fear of violence.
"You have released the whirlwind and you will pay the price" is not a true threat or incitement even if it leads to an assassination attempt, just as "fight like hell . . . peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard" is not a true threat or incitement even if it contributes to a riot.
Organizing and calling for direct action, for "mobilization, for disruption" and saying that opponents "cannot know a moment of peace" may not be a true threat or incitement, and may not be reasonably actionable speech by a politician (or any citizen), but if a guest expressing sympathy for Hamas and excusing terrorist acts uses those words helps create a hostile and intimidating environment for other students it is reasonable to uninvite him.
I don't have all the facts, but this reminds me a bit of the Chemerinsky dinner party and students spouting protected speech, then acting like they shouldn't have been told to leave.
Other than the fact that the First Amendment applies to the government and not Chemerinsky's dinner party, yes it is a lot like that.
Ideally, the State Dept should focus on kicking out foreign students who actually disrupt campus activities - which is not only unprotected speech but also the negation of 1A values at a university. Not to mention an obstacle to U. S. foreign policy goals - which definitely include being able to assure potential students worldwide that they can come to an American university without experiencing campus occupations, etc.
But news reports (if true) indicate that the Trump/Rubio state department is trying to kick out students for anti-Semitic newspaper editorials and stuff which would be perfectly legal if a citizen did it.
The sad fact is that, if our universities aspire to host an international community of scholars as US universities ought to be able to do, these universities must face up to the reality that some of those scholars will be real twits at best or holders of poisonous ideas at worst. But if their expression of their bad ideas stays within the context of peaceful, nondisruptive campus debate, I'd say that letting such students spout off is a price to be paid for having a truly diverse student body. Diversity in the real sense, not the artificial sense.
Would it be too much to hope for that the courts will do a case by case analysis and protect those students who merely spouted off in op-eds, while letting students who disrupted university activities get sent back whence they came?
I'm not talking about that former student who got a green card, he's entitled to the benefits of both the First *and Sixth* Amendments for reasons explained in Madison's report on the Alien and Sedition Acts. So even if he engaged in unprotected activities, that would be for a jury to figure out, not an immigration bureaucrat.
But people admitted merely for limited purposes and times - no jury for them, they aren't admitted for permanent residence and deprivation of their temporary residence privilege isn't a criminal punishment needing a jury.