The Volokh Conspiracy
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Justice Alito Dissents: "Both the Executive and the Judiciary have an obligation to follow the law."
Justice Alito also questions whether the Court even had jurisdiction to act.
Saturday evening, I published three posts on A.A.R.P. v. Trump. Around midnight eastern time, Justice Alito issued his dissent, which was joined only by Justice Thomas. The dissent begins: "Shortly after midnight yesterday, the Court hastily and prematurely granted unprecedented emergency relief." He is correct.
Justice Alito lists seven bullets which demonstrates why this order was problematic. The first bullet argues that it is unclear the Court had jurisdiction:
It is not clear that the Court had jurisdiction. The All Writs Act does not provide an independent grant of jurisdiction. See 28 U. S. C. §1651(a) (permitting writs "necessary or appropriate in aid of " a court's jurisdiction); Clinton v. Goldsmith, 526 U. S. 529, 534–535 (1999) ("the express terms" of the All Writs Act "confine the power of [a court] to issuing process' in aid of ' its existing statutory jurisdiction; the Act does not enlarge that jurisdiction" (quoting §1651(a)). Therefore, this Court had jurisdiction only if the Court of Appeals had jurisdiction of the applicants' appeal, see §1254 (granting this Court jurisdiction to review "[c]ases in the courts of appeals"), and the Court of Appeals had jurisdiction only if the supposed order that the applicants appealed amounted to the denial of a preliminary injunction. See §1292(a)(1).
I've received a number of emails about my Marbury post. I'll offer a few points in response. The All Writs Act permits the Court to take actions in aid of its jurisdiction, and even in aid of its future jurisdiction. But, as Justice Alito notes, the All Writs Act does not, by itself, grant the Court new statutory jurisdiction. The Court still must have statutory jurisdiction from some other basis. The usual basis is where there is a judgment that is appealable under Section 1292. In some cases, the Court have construed a TRO as, in effect, a preliminary injunction, thus permitting the Court to intervene. But in A.A.R.P., the District Court did not rule at all, one way or the other. There is a doctrine where the "constructive" denial of a TRO is considered a ruling. But as Judge Ramirez pointed out, the district court was given about 42 minutes to rule. There is no sense this was a "constructive" denial.
Perhaps the ACLU might argue that the question of whether there is a "constructive" denial is a merits question. But I think it has to be jurisdictional, and that is what the Fifth Circuit concluded. If the Supreme Court wanted to issue any relief, it would have to satisfy itself there was a constructive denial, which would afford it some sort of statutory jurisdiction. I doubt any such finding was made. The Court fell for the ACLU's petition hook, line, and sinker.
It's not at all clear to me that the Supreme Court had any appellate statutory jurisdiction in this case. And if it was not exercising an appellate statutory jurisdiction, then how did the Court issue an order to the "government" (however defined)? If in fact the All Writs Act permits the Supreme Court to assume statutory jurisdiction over a future appeal, and issue an injunction, when in fact the District Court was never even given a chance to rule, then the All Writs Act may have some Marbury problems.
Has the Supreme Court ever issued an injunction or mandamus in a case where there is no ruling from any lower court? (I am not talking about cases of constructive denial.) I would wager the answer is no, but maybe someone knows of these cases. I am happy to post an update.
Justice Alito's second and third bullets focus on whether the ACLU complied with the Federal Rules of Appellate Procedure Rule 8(a)(1)(A) and Supreme Court Rule 23.3 about emergency relief. They didn't. These sorts of procedural rules only seem to matter when the Court wants to deny relief.
Alito does include a piece of information that hasn't been made public:
When this Court rushed to enter its order, the Court of Appeals was considering the issue of emergency relief, and we were informed that a decision would be forthcoming.
Based on my calculations, the Fifth Circuit ruled within a few minutes of the Supreme Court. The Fifth Circuit's order was dated April 18. It was issued around midnight central time, which would be around 1:00 a.m. ET. The Supreme Court's order was issued around 1:00 a.m. ET. It isn't clear which happened first. I asked the Clerk of the Fifth Circuit for clarification, which should be a matter of public record. But now we learn that Chief Justice Roberts knew the Fifth Circuit was going to rule, but just didn't give a damn to wait. Maybe he thought it was easier to try to rule first, and avoid having to make any ruling on anything?
Justice Alito's fourth bullet explains the problems with granting ex parte relief, where there are only briefs from one side.
Justice Alito's fifth bullet attacks another ruling issued late at night: South Bay:
The papers before us, while alleging that the applicants were in imminent danger of removal, provided little concrete support for that allegation. Members of this Court have repeatedly insisted that an All Writs Act injunction pending appeal may only be granted when, among other things, "the legal rights at issue are indisputably clear and, even then, sparingly and only in the most critical and exigent circumstances." South Bay United Pentecostal Church v. Newsom, 590 U. S. ___, ___ (2020) (ROBERTS, C. J., concurring in denial of application for injunctive relief ) (slip op., at 2) (internal quotation marks omitted) (quoting S. Shapiro, K. Geller, T. Bishop, E.Hartnett, D. Himmelfarb, Supreme Court Practice§17.4, p. 17–9 (11th ed. 2019));
In my earlier post, I speculated:
Can you imagine if the Supreme Court had bypassed all lower courts, and enjoined an emergency COVID regulation twenty-four hours after a district court TRO was filed?
Does everyone remember the South Bay "super precedent"? During the pandemic, there were actual imminent injuries by American citizens who sought to pray on holidays. But Chief Justice Roberts took his time, and ruled against people of faith for months at a time. It wasn't until Justice Barrett's confirmation that this tide turned. (I am convinced she regrets that early vote.) By contrast, the Court issues unprecedented orders to ensure that alleged gang members, who are in this country illegally, cannot be deported. I'm glad that the Chief has his priorities straight. This is what Trump would call an 80/20 issue.
Justice Alito's sixth bullet references a hearing before Judge Boasberg on a Saturday.
Although this Court did not hear directly from the Government regarding any planned deportations under the Alien Enemies Act in this matter, an attorney representing the Government in a different matter, J. G. G. v. Trump, No. 1:25–cv–766 (DC), informed the District Court in that case during a hearing yesterday evening that no such deportations were then planned to occur either yesterday, April18, or today, April 19.
Judges in the Beltway apparently are always on call to hold emergency hearings whenever the ACLU asks for one. It is unclear why Judge Boasberg is doing anything with these cases. The Supreme Court found he lacks venue and the D.C. Circuit stayed his special prosecutor frolick. Still, even if Boasberg denied relief, he is still demanding concessions from government lawyers.
The seventh bullet points out an obvious argument: the Court has never held that habeas can be used to certify a class, and the District Court never certified a class. The Supreme Court cannot exercise Rule 23 powers on the fly.
Although the Court provided class-wide relief, the District Court never certified a class, and this Court has never held that class relief may be sought in a habeas proceeding.
Justice Alito issues a challenge to his fellow members: I couldn't join this opinion, so why did you?
In sum, literally in the middle of the night, the Court issued unprecedented and legally questionable relief without giving the lower courts a chance to rule, without hearing from the opposing party, within eight hours of receiving the application, with dubious factual support for its order, and without providing any explanation for its order. I refused to join the Court's order because we had no good reason to think that, under the circumstances, issuing an order at midnight was necessary or appropriate.
The conclusion is a shot at J. Harvie Wilkinson:
Both the Executive and the Judiciary have an obligation to follow the law. The Executive must proceed under the terms of our order in Trump v. J. G. G., 604 U. S. ___ (2025) (per curiam), and this Court should follow established procedures.
Amen. The obligation cannot only be on Trump; the Court must obey the law as well. The more Chief Justice Roberts issues decisions like this, the more his precious "legitimacy" withers. I made a similar point here:
In a stress test, the Justices of the Supreme Court failed. In the same breath that Judges like J. Harvie Wilkinson wax poetic about the executive branch behaving lawlessly, the highest court in the land does no better.
Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas are national treasures.
Justices Gorsuch and Kavanaugh did not join this dissent. I see a redux of the tax return cases, where the clearly agreed with the dissenters but could not be seen ruling for Trump. As for Justice Barrett, I think we can finally bury the "process formalism" defense. There are so many procedural reasons why she should have dissented here. But she did not, without any explanation. We can't read an opinion that does not exist; much like the Supreme Court cannot review a decision that does not exist.
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God, Blackman is so stupid it hurts. Cheif Justice Roberts did not issue the decision. It was 7-2. Then he goes on to make statements about Gorsuch and Kavanaugh's specific motivations even though he has no special insight. Why is Blackman still a commentator on this blog?
We don’t know if it was 7-2. On the shadow docket Justices don’t have to announce their dissent.
It’s highly unlikely a justice would dissent but not announce it. What would be the point? Even if theoretically possible Blackman would have no way of knowing and so his comments are baseless speculation.
I agree with your general statement but there were reports of one or more justices over the years disagreeing with a per curiam and not announcing their dissent. They disagreed but did not think it worthwhile to openly say so. Also, at some point, there was probably a case where the Court handed down an order, and a justice didn't take part for some reason & it was not necessary to say so.
There is always voting "present."
In a situation like this where four (?) affirmative votes are required to act, all a justice need do is nothing to be counted in the negative. This is different from an actual verdict where a justice must join one side or the other.
I wonder what hold it is that Roberts has -- what actual power does the CJ have over the other eight?
There is not, in fact.
No, five votes are required to grant relief. Four votes are required to grant cert.
None. The only power the chief justice has as chief justice is that if he's in the majority he decides to whom to assign the opinion.
I'll highlight _Caetano_ as a likely case.
We know that at least two of the justices involved have since argued that _Heller_ was incorrectly decided, and another had dissented in _Heller_ directly and never signed on an opinion advocating for _Heller_'s holdings. The chances that all three agreed for just the matter of stun guns under Massachusett's regime is basically nil: there were none of the process or fairness arguments that persuaded them in _Caniglia_, and arguably fewer process or fairness arguments than _Bruen_.
Yet, by the record, this is per curiam and has no dissents. Why not?
Trivially, the justices may have just not felt it worthwhile. Caetano was not the sort of case where they could have gotten a thousand calls to their dissent as better, nor was it different enough from Heller to result in much serious impact. They may have wanted to benefit from the ambiguity, where the left side of the bench's position on the second amendment or to stare decisis for Heller was at least (then) arguable. They may not have wanted the aggro, especially in an election year where gun control and the Supreme Court was already a big issue. And they may have been persuaded on all of these matters by a chief justice who is extremely focused on the political ramifications of his decisions and overwhelmingly loves a unified court decision.
Not unlikely at all.
We just don't know when it happens.
Nah you are the stupid one. Roberts did issue this statement. We can easily tell Gorsuch's and Kav's motivations because they didn't vote with the dissenters.
He's a commentator on this blog because he is right, and you cannot stand that.
Shut up Josh
It is always possible that Gorsuch and/or Kav want to actually hear the underlying case and don't want to see it become moot.
Am I the only one being besieged by the SPLC solicitations?
Donating to them is worse than the Klan because the Klan at least has the defense of being ignorant. The SPLC have college degrees...
Josh, it's 1 am. Anyone at DOJ who would have hired you has already passed on the idea. You aren't getting there by misunderstanding the all writs act in four different directions.
Nah, Josh is right, with Alito and Thomas. Sorry you hate that.
Simmer down now Josh
More flop sweat from Blackman.
How so?
Because he's right and his haters cannot stand that.
Josh is never right, least of all here, in which he suggests that not being able to pray in your preferred location is a worse depravation of life, liberty or property than permanent admission to a foreign torture prison.
From Alito's dissent:
"except in the most extraordinary circumstances, an application for a stay will not be entertained"
"sparingly and only in the most critical and exigent circumstances"
Could not the circumstances here be such?
Consider it the other way around. Had scotus waited for the lower courts. and some planes had taken off, plaintiffs would have no way to seek relief. We already know that the Trump administration won't turn planes around based on anything like a court order. The only response would be 'Oopsie, too late'.
How critical and exigent can the circumstances be when no flights are planned?
As legal fight raged, ICE buses filled with Venezuelans heading toward airport turned around, video shows
At least 28 detainees were placed on buses Friday evening at ICE’s Bluebonnet Detention Center in Anson, Texas, and then driven toward an airport about an hour away.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna202007
Hey Michael P, is it now appropriate to sanction anyone for lying to the courts about the claim that no flights were planned?
Though I think it’s entirely possible that the govt lawyer (Drew Ensign, I believe) who asserted that there were no plans might have been lied to as well, and he did not knowingly lie to the court.
Only if we are going to impeach and remove judges for acting without jurisdiction, as some here have said is the (only) proper basis to impeach judges.
So no response to the discussion, just gonna throw out red herrings.
It’s a bitch to serve the Mad King.
Make sure to compost.
Denialists gonna denialist.
You say this every time you're called on your bullshit. I hope it gives you some small comfort.
Mikie complaining about “denial” of his whataboutism, lol. Try self-awareness sometime!
Per Article III, § 1 of the Constitution, "The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour[.]"
Michael P, who on these comment threads has said that acting without jurisdiction is the (only) proper basis to impeach judges? I make no claim to be omniscient, but I don't recall any such comment.
Still waiting, Michael P.
Did you miss the part about the 18 cop cars from various jurisdiction with flashing lights? Or how it took "about an hour" to go 30 miles -- with flashing emergency lights....
No, this was theatrics, a show put on for someone's benefit -- I don't know whose, but if they actually wanted to do this, they wouldn't have those 18 cop cars from various jurisdictions with flashing lights bringing attention to what they were doing.
No, they'd do it the way Obama smuggled these criminals into the country -- with unmarked buses and at 3 AM. Or, at the very least, tell the 18 cop cars to NOT have flashing lights on.
They weren't intending to fly anyone anywhere -- they just wanted someone to think that they were.
And people are assuming that the SCOTUS ruling was a defeat for Trump. It might not have been.
Right, because they really wanted SCOTUS to think they were about to violate the ruling. What possible benefit to the Trump administration could there be from falsely making people *think* they were about to deport a bunch of people?
Theatrics to include urging the inmates to sign a removal order? Whose benefit was it for when a guard told an inmate, (paraphrasing) "You got lucky, you were on your way to El Salvador"?
"shows the ICE motorcade pass the airport’s exit "
So it was headed toward an unknown designation and merely passed the airport, as far as you actually know.
As Ed pointed out, pretty showy for a secret flight, designed to fool the courts.
“Plans” can change. The government attorneys said they would “notify the court” if plans change. They did not categorically rule out flights until the court could address the emergency on a less urgent basis.
The government also chose to start this on a Friday. This does not fill one with confidence that notifying the court would be accomplished in a manner actually intended to allow time for a response by plaintiffs’ lawyers and courts, as opposed to another round of smirking “oopsie, nothing we can do now” responses.
If the government is going to take such efforts to weasel, the courts can and should respond as if weaseling is afoot.
So then if they notified that would change, THEN there would be exigent circumstances.
The ACLU started this on Friday, not the government.
The only weaseling is the ACLU and SCOTUS. Sorry you hate facts.
No, the government started it on Friday, which is when they distributed notices to the prisoners that they were going to be deported. A copy of one of the notices, signed by a DHS supervisor on 4/18/25 (i.e, Friday) is in the record.
And transporting those inmates on buses towards an airport on a Friday night/saturday morning isn't weaseling?
No.
Why would it?
Narrator: "Flights were in fact planned."
Better Narrator: "Flights in fact were not planned, and David's narrator was lying for his own narrative"
"Flights:
Improper use of plural, 28 people would fit on one flight.
If no flights really were planned, then the order has had no effect. So what're you so bent up about Pichael?
SInce we know the Trump administration has no qualms about lying in court about these matters, your argument is worthless
I hate that I have to ask this question, but do all of these Venezuelans have criminal convictions?
If they are shipping people to foreign prisons, that should require not just a deportation proceeding, but a criminal conviction, right? RIGHT?
I suppose on some level I had assumed that they are deporting convicted criminals we were holding in US prisons. But what, are they sweeping supposed gang members straight off the street and putting them into prison without a trial? Just because the prison is not on US soil does not make this ok. And a deportation hearing is not sufficient to justify imprisonment.
This is the whole problem with the Garcia case. WTF is he in prison for? Who cares about the deportation part. It's the imprisonment without trial part that we should be worrying about.
You should petition the El Salvadoran government.
Well, it is run by a dictator. And clearly Bukele is willing to give Trump a wink and a nudge and keep Garcia in prison because Trump doesn't feel like doing anything about it. The chortling between them on social media and in public about how they aren't going to let him go is disgusting.
It would be more understandable if Garcia was a political opposition figure. In this case, he's decided to stomp all over the rights of a total nobody and laugh about it, like they were enjoying squashing a bug.
Yes, it is disgusting, and undignified. I can't imagine any other President acting like a giggling juvenile bully, let alone doing it in public so shamelessly.
Something about the fact that the target is basically someone who does not and never has posed a threat to Trump makes it especially disturbing. This isn't even Putin-like, like a normal dictator. Putin, at least, directs his injustices at his political enemies, in a calculated manner. This is more like Nazis randomly shooting people in the Warsaw ghetto, just because. He was loitering outside a Home Depot 6 years ago. Prison! Now lets go on TV and joke about it, like Nazis who just shot a random Jew for fun.
Three letters: NSA.
You don't know what he might have said on his cell phone.
And you know that MAGA does not support the VAWA and a SCOTUS ruling that domestic violence orders are unconstitutional would be priceless.
Oh so we're just supposed to believe there's secret evidence. Even though they are not actually saying there is.
No. Just to reiterate what I said a couple of times before: the entire purpose of resorting to a fake AEA argument is because the government doesn't have any other grounds to deport these people. They are here legally and haven't done anything to make themselves deportable. AEA allows the government to seize and deport citizens of countries we are at war with (TdA is not a country and we're not at war with Venezuela) without any other conditions.
But you are correct that the power to deport is not the same as the power to imprison.
Yes, and the people who actually have criminal records are already in jail or have been deported. That's the thing, they have to come up with something to back up the scare stories they are telling people in the MAGAsphere - that there's all these terrifying illegal alien criminals running around America's streets. They have to have something to show for it. And since it reality there just aren't that many criminal aliens they know about that haven't already been arrested, they have to go after non-criminal aliens for trumped up reasons. Classic scapegoating.
You actually believe the only illegals running around America are non-criminal illegals?
Are you for real? Or another Federal "Cognitive Infrastructure" minder?
LOL no they are NOT here legally. They are using AEA because it's faster, but there are other ways to do it.
Right. Which the government was already doing. Trump just wanted to skip the slow formal due process stuff so he could make a big show of deporting people. So he rounded up a bunch of people and shipped them to a foreign prison without bothering to look to closely at whether they were here legally or not. All that formal process exists for a reason.
The "Maryland Man" under a standing deportation order since 2019 was here legally?
Why do you lie? Is it out of ignorance or out of mischief making?
Why are you stupid? Abrego Garcia was not deported pursuant to the AEA. We're talking about the AEA.
I'm unclear on that. Pretty sure he was on one of those initial flights that Boasberg tried to turn around. Otherwise, how did he get confined in CECOT? He has no criminal convictions in El Salvador.
On March 15, the U.S. sent three flights of prisoners to El Salvador. The government represented to Boasberg that unlike the first two planes, the third one did not contain anyone being deported pursuant to the AEA. We don't know — other than Garcia — who was in that last category. (Bukele actually rejected a number of them on the grounds that CECOT doesn't accept those from other central American countries, and also doesn't accept women. Compared to everything else the Trump administration did wrong/illegally, those are relatively trivial fuckups by the administration, but indicative of how incompetent they are. They didn't bother to find out who they could send to CECOT before they took action, because they were just in such a rush to get as many people out of the country as quickly as possible to appease the racists.)
Last week, Sen. Van Hollen said that the Vice President of El Salvador told him they were holding him because the US was paying them to. I assume that means under the same deal by which we are paying them to house TdA members. I think it's entirely plausible that they mixed up people being deported under AEA and otherwise at least after the planes landed, and just processed them all into CECOT. (At least the ones El Salvador would accept).
Oh, yes; I don't dispute anything you're saying here. I'm just saying that Abrego Garcia wasn't deported under the AEA. (There's no allegation that Abrego Garcia was a member of TdA.)
Ok, I get it. I suppose it is somewhat irrelevant - he got put in a foreign prison either way, which should have required a criminal conviction. I guess the prison deal covers both people being held under the AEA and random other people that the Trump administration wants to hold.
He is alleged to be MS13 hence...a designated foreign terrorist. Similar to TdA deportees; designated foreign terrorists can also be summarily removed. From the administration's perspective; the designation of MS13 as a foreign terrorist organization IS the due process they are entitled to. Because they are psychotic assholes who don't want immigrants to have due process protections and will make bad faith legal arguments to prevent it; invoke fake emergencies to deny it and when called out on the obvious methodology berate you for being a pro terrorist sympathizer.
What Nomind fails to mention is that you can imprison pending deportation.
T'dA is a NGO and we can be at war with a NGO as much as with a state.
And then after the deportation, they are supposed to be let go.
Deporting them into the custody of a foreign government that is going to imprison them indefinitely is more comparable to putting them in prison without a criminal charge or conviction. A deportation proceeding is not a criminal conviction.
Dr. Ed 2, when did Congress declare war on Tren de Aragua?
An NGO by definition cannot be "any foreign nation or government" within the meaning of 50 U.S.C. § 21.
Only for six months.
TdA, which does not have a random apostrophe in it, is not an NGO and we cannot be at war with an NGO.
I was thinking French abbreviations -- but I seem to remember a war with Al-Qaeda and us killing its leader. Would you prefer "non state actors"?
What was sio urgent about the lower courts than they needed to issue TRO's?
The flights that turned around after the ruling came out. Flights the admin said were not planned. Plenty of links to coverage in this thread.
I have to agree there is not a huge level of trust right now between the "Government" and the Court.
And the fact that there were possibly going to be some immigration flights doesn't help.
I think the first step for the Court is to restore some faith that it will keep the lower courts within the scope of their jurisdiction and the law. That means not allow a novel habeas class action.
Second they should be clearer about how much advanced notice detainees should get, and what opportunity they have to challenge their membership in TdA, which is really their only grounds to avoid deportation under AEA.
Third they should make it clear that the current injunction/stay/tro/whatever only applies to the AEA, not to existing immigration law authorizing deportation.
In the meantime the administration should continue deporting those with final removal orders, and start seizing their assets, in accordance with the law, to pay fines for not timely presenting themselves for removal.
The reason for that is to give them incentive to self deport.
There are prior cases of habeas class actions. That have gone up to the S.Ct. The concept is not novel.
This isn't rocket surgery.
Challenging the applicability of the AEA on the basis that the US is not at war with Venezuela, and thus the administration is failing to comply with the clear and unambiguous statutory language, is an entirely legitimate ground.
This isn't rocket surgery.
The administration should try using them, instead of trying to cut corners and bullshit their way through fundamental concepts like due process.
This isn't rocket surgery.
I think the first step for the Court is to restore some faith that it will keep the lower courts within the scope of their jurisdiction and the law. That means not allow a novel habeas class action.
In the meantime the administration should continue deporting those with final removal orders, and start seizing their assets, in accordance with the law, to pay fines for not timely presenting themselves for removal.
So you demand the Supreme Court make a lot of concessions and the administration accelerate what they're doing.
You think anyone's going to buy that crock of shit?
The reason for that is to give them incentive to self deport.
Lots of words to end up saying 'Fuck the law, the cruelty is the point.'
I think the first step for the Court is to restore some faith that it will keep the lower courts within the scope of their jurisdiction and the law. That means not allow a novel habeas class action.
Fuck that. The first step is for the Administration to start obeying the law, and court orders, and stop lying to the courts.
None of that is going to happen, IMO, until Trump is impeached and removed from office. If we had an honest Republican party that process would already be well under way.
God help us if Trump was removed from office...
It was also maybe a week ago that Alito argued a TRO should be construed as a final appealable order.
I maintain that given the administration’s position that deportation errors can not be remedied, the courts order was proper. The administration’s history of middle of the night flights and lack of candor to the courts also are a major factor against the administration.
Also thx to Alito for giving me something to help me sleep.
This. They're the ones arguing they can't provide due process once the deportees are no longer in US custody. If that's truly the case, then the whole practice of sending people to foreign prisons is unconstitutional.
Fun fact. Jacobins slept famously well.
Interesting comment from a bedfellow-bot of them.
The appointment of Scam Alito to SCOTUS is the second worst decision that George W. Doofus made as President. Who knew that he could actually do worse than his first choice, Harriet Miers?
I predicted at the time that that nomination would go to Alberto Gonzales, with a side agreement that Bush v. Gore would not be overruled unless and until Jenna and Barbara Bush got sober.
Perhaps that didn't happen, and Alito waited until the Bush twins may have begun menopause.
The better option might have been Miguel Estrada but then he would have lost his status as top Republican martyr to Democratic obstructionism. He still endorsed Kagan though.
"until Jenna and Barbara Bush got sober."
You really hate women, don't you?
Any libs here who would like to chime in on his comment?
Guess not.
Don't forget the blacks! NG does hate him some blacks.
The appointment of Scam Alito to SCOTUS is the second worst decision that George W. Doofus made as President
Frank? You forgot to switch IDs.
Hey atleast Alito isn't black, because then he'd be one of your famous "stupid, big lipped negro"'s or that not guilty classic "Uncle, Registered Blue Gum, Clarence Tom"'s!
Regular racist here clutches pearls, this is what it means when these people cry racism.
Uh, lol, your English translator stinks.
Uh, no, your English comprehension stinks.
I have taken some hard shots at Clarence Thomas, but I have never called him blue gum.
The only person I have heard use the phrase, "blue gum nigger," is my late father, who from context indicated that that was a complimentary characterization of a black person in his day. I have nothing good to say about Mr. Thomas.
Speaking of my dad, his stepfather's surname was Black, and the family operated the Black Coal Company before and during World War II. He told me that the company's letterhead bore the slogan, "We're in a black business, but we'll treat you white."
"All Writs Act does not, by itself, grant the Court new statutory jurisdiction. The Court still must have statutory jurisdiction from some other basis." - This is correct. But, as others have noted, the statutory jurisdiction can be a future one. Because the lower court will issue an appealable order in the near future, there is no jurisdictional problem.
I also remember that the Court can issue common law certiorari where Section 1254 does not apply.
Marbury sought a final, permanent relief. That was an exercise of original jurisdiction. The order here is not permanent. It is also different from other preliminary injunctions that seek to prevent irreparable harm to plaintiffs. The court acted because it will suffer irreparable harm had the defendants been permitted to strip it of its forthcoming jurisdiction. Courts do not lose jurisdiction when a COVID lockdown order becomes effective.
Marbury was wrongly decided on multiple levels, starting with the fact that Marshall ought to have recused himself.
HAHAHAH!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOL
"Saturday evening, I published three posts on A.A.R.P. v. Trump."
This and those three and Ilya Somin's one make five quick posts on a short nonprecedential order.
Prof Simon provided useful information in the form of Prof Vladek (who was also just interviewed on NPR this morning).
Prof Blackmun made self-important bloviations … without even the goddamn common courtesy of using the “Read More” feature.
I don't think I have ever read an opinion where a Justice tells two branches of government to follow the law quite like this before (meaning Justice Alito). And I don't think he will be a guest at CJ Roberts' Easter dinner table this evening, either. He was a fine pick for SCOTUS.
But...Why did SCOTUS even step into this case, at this early juncture? I go back to that. I thought SCOTUS needed developed arguments. There were no arguments, just an order. What happened? All of this just over an imaginary weekend deportation flight?
Did SCOTUS 'jump the gun' (act too quickly)? Looks that way.
Why are you sure it was imaginary? Because you believe what the Trump DOJ tells you? The Court apparently no longer does.
This plays so well into Trump's populist rhetoric that the courts have gone wild. If you turn everyone around you into reactionaries, you are essentially controlling them. That's why Trump's public, populist persona is what it is. When he says something, everyone follows, everyone is compelled to respond to Trump. He's leading the conversation.
Do you see now why there were all those cop cars with flashing emergency lights?
Holiday weekend...Easter? Deportation flight? Nope.
If it wasn't a holiday weekend, I would allow for a greater probability. Nobody wants to be transporting scumbag illegal alien gangbangers for their Easter (or Passover) holiday.
As legal fight raged, ICE buses filled with Venezuelans heading toward airport turned around, video shows
At least 28 detainees were placed on buses Friday evening at ICE’s Bluebonnet Detention Center in Anson, Texas, and then driven toward an airport about an hour away.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna202007
You're not very bright, are you?
A holiday weekend is perfect, if your goal is to spirit people out of the country before lawyers and courts can enter an order.
Because then the Trump can respond with Oops … I did it again!
And if you think Trump isn’t willing to make “his” peons work on Easter weekend, I’ve got a nice bridge to sell you.
Oh, and deporting (presumed) Catholics on Easter itself would absolutely appeal to Stephen "The Cruelty is the Point" Miller, who is a literal ghoul.
'(presumed) Catholics".
Hahahahahahahahaha
Nice one Notimportant!
Well, when did Clinton seize Elion Gonzalez?
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.YxU3OSk4afsE413kj8qElwHaEL%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=115adc621550c9a99a46d8861b9156e18bec118f48402cd8374901e45e0c782d
FFS you're a frackin' moron. From 22 seconds googling, Wikipedia sez:
and
(emphasis added.) So, in sum, the INS raid was not for the express purpose of spiriting Elián out of the country on a holiday weekend, before a court could issue an order. Full review on the merits, all the way up to the S.Ct.
Which is EXACTLY UNLIKE attempting deportation flights on Easter weekend, to avoid judicial review.
Normally I'd think no one can possibly be that dumb, but you keep proving that you are, in fact, that dumb.
That picture's real...
It is. And what does that have to do with your moronic link to the day of the week it occurred?
Your thesis was about timing. Defend it. Put up or STFU and STFD.
Loser.
They only need developed arguments for cases they're not eager to take, like 2nd amendment cases.
100%
They let those cases percolate for 2-3 years and then deny cert.
"But...Why did SCOTUS even step into this case, at this early juncture? I go back to that. I thought SCOTUS needed developed arguments. There were no arguments, just an order. What happened? All of this just over an imaginary weekend deportation flight?"
As I wrote on another comment thread, Justice Holmes observed that "Upon this point a page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921).
When John Roberts accepted his appointment as Chief Justice twenty years ago, he didn't sign on to micromanage the executive branch of government where a lawless president refuses to do so. President Trump is running roughshod over the legislative and judicial branches. I strongly suspect that every justice other than Clarence Toady and Scam Alito are getting tired of pulling Trump's chestnuts out of the fire.
NG, I am not following your point.
Trump and his henchmen on the evening of March 15, 2020 surreptitiously spirited Venezuelans out of the country despite a Temporary Restraining Order barring the Government from transferring certain individuals into foreign custody pursuant to the Alien Enemies Act. At the time the Order issued, those individuals were on planes being flown overseas, having been spirited out of the United States by the Government before they could vindicate their due-process rights by contesting their removability in a federal court, as the law requires. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.278436/gov.uscourts.dcd.278436.81.0_5.pdf
As Antonio said in Shakespeare's The Tempest, Act 2, Scene I, what's past is prologue. Those justices who prohibited Trump from acting here had good reason to think that Trump's lawless history was in the process of repeating itself.
*2025
Right. Thank you and mea culpa!
So to preserve the constitution, Roberts decided to violate the constitution by acting without jurisdiction? But I agree Bush II made a grievous error in selecting justices but it was in nominating Roberts. Now I don’t like the Bush administrations, either of them, but even great Presidents like Reagan and Trump make mistakes in SCt nominations.
Chief Justice Roberts did not violate the Constitution here. An appellate court has authority under the All Writs Act, 28 U.S.C. § 1651(a), to preserve appellate jurisdiction in a civil suit that may eventually come before SCOTUS. See Federal Trade Commission v. Dean Foods Company, 384 U.S. 597 603-604 (1966), superseded by statute on other grounds as recognized in Global Van Lines, Inc. v. I.C.C., 714 F.2d 1290, 1296 n.6 (5th Cir. 1983).
Uh huh. Except they didn't have jurisdiction. And are bending over backwards to help opponents of Trump administration policy in contrast to their treatment of the Trump administration. Otherwise spot on.
Do you have a substantive response?
You know, something a little more cogent than "nuh-uh!" and showing off your poor-to-nonexistent understanding of jurisdiction?
Riva, have you read Dean Foods? The Supreme Court's appellate jurisdiction applies to cases which may, but have not yet, come before the Court:
Federal Trade Commission v. Dean Foods Company, 384 U.S. 597 603 (1966), superseded by statute on other grounds as recognized in Global Van Lines, Inc. v. I.C.C., 714 F.2d 1290, 1296 n.6 (5th Cir. 1983).
Still waiting, Riva. Have you read Dean Foods or not?
“There were no arguments, just an order.”
And there was no determination by SCOTUS, but rather a pause. Why can’t the Executive pause?
Roberts is a piece of shit. He's probably doing cocaine parties with Georgetown Law girls.
This guy’s just jealous because his are with the local community college girls and with his mom’s fentanyl.
No, I'm actually married, to a woman, and have spectacular children. You know, the way nature and Western civilization intended it.
Woah, you have a wife & children?
You're such a homophobic transphobe! If you also happen to be White, and have more than one child, well you're also a Global Warming Genocidal Rayyyyyyyycist.
Incel whines.
Why is it always the shit-for-brains, slack-jawed yokels who seem to know exactly how everyone is supposed to live? There must be some correlation.
Rev?! Is that you?! Glad you're back!
Sure, they live in Canada!
Because they did not trust that Trump was telling the turth when he said no deportations were imminent.
Uh, Trump wouldn't even make that representation! Ensign said at the hearing before Boasberg on Friday at about dinnertime that none were planned for Friday or Saturday. He couldn't or wouldn't make any representation about Sunday. (And the actual victims were told that their deportations were imminent!)
Since there were apparently actual detainees on actual busses headed to an actual airport on Friday for actual AEA deportations, I'm quite curious if Attorney Ensign knowingly lied to the court, or if he was deliberately supplied with false info to present to the court.
If forced to chose, I'd guess the latter. Making those representations to a court if he knew they were false could be career-ending. And the statute of limitations expires after Trump's presidency ends (though Trump pardoning the administration's co-conspirators would solve that problem, at least).
I don't know that an attorney, who is not then under oath, making false representations to a court (other than an unsworn declaration under penalty of perjury pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 1746) violates any federal criminal statute.
It can damn sure result in disciplinary action, though.
Not if there wasn't an actual intent to put the criminals on planes...
Outside the criminal question-begging, the loaded buses headed to the airport were just a hip-fake? But I do know how much you love your undetectable (cloaked?) 4th-dimensional chess moves.
Trump doesn't play to his base?
Um, this SCOTUS ruling wasn't on the merits. The entire point was to freeze the status quo to allow those arguments to be developed.
It doesn't bother me that this decision attracted two dissents. The majority was certainly taking an extraordinary step, and can't be expected to achieve unanimity.
I simply think the majority was right - the executive shouldn't be sending people out of the country as alien enemies until the courts have a chance to figure out what's going on. And there's reason for concern that the executive might seek to send people out of the country while the courts are in the middle of considering the legal issues.
This is particularly concerning since I don't see how Venezuelans can be considered alien enemies under a fair reading of the Alien Enemies Act.
Can you tell the difference between Male and Female?
Yes. A female is someone who runs away when they see you.
Inaccurate. Males also run away from him.
Frank’s mom got this question so much when introducing him to folks.
By the way Frank, have you figured out if you’re a psychotic phoney with a deranged posting style and made up persona or are you actually a person who grew up in the US as a child and has lived here for decades but hasn’t learned basic third grade writing skills?
I love this "transphobia" in this comment. I too call people trannies as an insult. It's so fucking gross and pathetic.
That’s your term, I’m just talking about Frank’s lack of masculinity. Think of your dad (well, the one who claimed you).
I think it's possible that they could be, depending on what is going on with Venezuela that our government isn't making public. But, so much of what we see today isn't a fair reading of whatever, long before Trump took office, that I find myself wondering why he's the only President whose readings need to be fair.
I've said it before: I would actually approve of a lot of TrumpLaw if I thought it were going to apply to any other President. But it's not.
We are well used to your confident presumptions of future liberal evildoing and bad faith being used as excuses for why you support Trump but totes don't want to.
Don't forget also "past liberal evildoing" and "accurate assessment based upon observation".
That's where most of his assertions come from, not from your characterization of it.
Hope this Helps!
P.S. I can't believe you're here on a day when you're not milking some innocent taxpayer out of $$$$
Magnus hopes one day to be a taxpayer.
He's just an angry dude who doesn't seem to understand the value of work, only the value of labor.
It's pure speculation, but his vibe always made me figure he's a pretty meek guy outside the Internet.
I am enjoying the bromance forming between the 'I hate black guys' grey box, and his 'I hate Jews' grey box.
If they were just gray boxes than you couldn't see what they were saying to conclude your "bromance" gay fantasy. I always found it so weird that the most common homo fantasy involves the Big Straight Bully Being Secretly Gay. How pathetic and mentally ill is that?
Which you just role-played out to perfection.
The courts never reined in any of Biden's communist policies, and you know it.
Were contempt hearings held after he said "We don't need a ruling on the CDC eviction moratorium because it expires next week anyway," and then proceeded to renew it the week after?
That of course is entire (D)ifferent. He was saving Public Health and fighting White Supremacy and Global Warming.
These are issues where the General Welfare clause grants the Executive (or Congress, whichever is lead by a D), unlimited authority to pursue what they believe promotes the general welfare. And since the Democrat Heart is pure, there is on improper animus or any other sorts of guardrails like they place on black-hearted Republicans.
“The courts never reined in any of Biden's communist policies, and you know it.”
He’d have to propose a communist policy for that to have happened, but SCOTUS struck down his school loan forgiveness, EPA rule, etc. Don’t you have internet in your mom’s basement?
The courts held up a bunch of Biden’s stuff. Rushing to do things and pushing the executive power envelope is sadly what POTUS’ often do, it’s the job of courts to vet that thoroughly.
Bellmore, once again, fails to grasp why what he calls, "TrumpLaw," has been invoked only against Trump. It happened and continues because nobody else before ever created novel criminal contexts to match what Trump serves up in multiple helpings weekly.
Whatever else it may make of Trump, history will marvel at his genius for off-the-cuff inventions of novel means for lawbreaking. Trump's second term start features a political crime spree the like of which has never before been attempted in American political history, maybe in world history. A chief executive ready to pardon confessed insurrectionists en masse, but not satisfied until he can misappropriate public funds to redress their fines and forfeitures, is not something anyone ever thought of before.
On a good day, Trump can come up with two or three new criminal scandals. Each, by itself, a slam dunk impeachment and removal from office for anyone else, followed by a criminal conviction.
For instance, congressionally unauthorized action, ordered by Trump, to block delivery of food aid to literally starving children abroad. Or concerted actions of various types to dismantle without authorization the nation's public health apparatus, and suppress use of vaccines for children and adults alike. Make it a point to notice, how Trump's crimes so often feature suffering inflicted on innocents.
Some instances like those barely make it into news reports, and vanish instantly from the public's over-sated attention. For all anyone can tell, there probably remains a trove of on-the-record-somewhere Trump crimes which no one has ever heard reported, while overwhelmed news outlets lacked capacity to keep up.
Those will remain as prizes for a cottage industry of future historians to bring to light. Add to those the other crimes Trump hides by omitting to keep records, or by falsifying records, or by public utterances asserting compliance he does not practice, or by reliance on insecure communications to bypass making official communications records. Not to mention crimes Trump commits in search of self-enrichment abroad.
By multiples, Trump is the most corrupt politician this nation has ever suffered under. Why? Maybe because Trump is not only the most malicious American president ever, but also because no other president was ever likewise abetted by a corrupt Supreme Court majority.
Chief Justice Roberts unleashed Trump's second term crime spree with his decision in Trump v. United States. That was an almost-excusable failure to recognize an improbably extreme danger before it became fully manifest. Roberts holds in his own hands the power to correct that error, and to stop Trump.
Roberts—if chastened by unexpected experience—and determined to set his error right—could assemble at least a bare Supreme Court majority to do it with little effort. Almost everyone reading this blog knows the names of at least 4 other justices who would support Roberts if he did it.
But Roberts seems intent on a course toward evasion. It is a course defined by minor correctives along the same ill-chosen heading, toward summer recess, and toward what Roberts may suppose foolishly would enable escape from blame for one of the most costly blunders in American judicial history. That would leave the nation to struggle unassisted through what is shaping up as its hottest summer in modern history.
Roberts ought to reconsider. His own failure to judge accurately the extent of Trump's perversity has paradoxically afforded Roberts a historical opportunity. He is positioned now as a candidate for the nation's roster of foundational heroes—a fate quite opposite the one history will assign him otherwise. Roberts ought to proclaim his mistake publicly, and call on the nation and his colleagues on the Court to back him while he makes not only his own amends, but also reassures this nation's future.
If any of that were true, Trump would not have been elected.
On “The Perpetuation of Our Political Institutions.” 1938, by a young Abraham Lincoln:
If you are representative of Trump voters, the choice of suicide seems to be Orange Kool-Aid.
*1838.
:-> Thanks...my fingers sometimes have a life of their own...but evidence I actually typed the line!
There are two problems with this. The first is that the formulation, "I'm only okay with holding someone accountable for wrongdoing if everyone else is" is just a terrible one.
The second is that because Brett only recognizes two types of law — Brettlaw and Bad Faith — he is incapable of grasping that there are gradations, and that what Trump is doing is worse than what others have done. So he imagines inconsistency where none exists.
It's not up to the judiciary to "figure out what is going on". They are supposed to be a neutral arbiter and not the prime player in the government. These wild west actions by the courts are inviting Congress to step in and set them straight. Roberts may rue the day he didn't step in early on when every action against the federal government has to come directly to his court in the first instance and bypass the lower courts.
Pauses=\= wild west actions
"It's not up to the judiciary to "figure out what is going on"."
Sure it is, especially in cases involving allegations of illegal imprisonment. While they're figuring out what's going on and what they can do, they can stop the executive from hiding the ball and shipping prisoners outside U. S. courts' jurisdiction.
And there's reason for concern that the executive might seek to send people out of the country while the courts are in the middle of considering the legal issues.
If there was no court order prohibiting it at the time...
Well, duh. That is the point of SCOTUS issuing the restraining order. https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/041925zr_c18e.pdf
And where was that concern when the Biden's were facilitating an alien invasion?
He wasn't, you're just a bigot.
My view is quite consistent - I would like to see the immigration laws enforced, not violated. That means kicking out illegals, and it also means *the government itself* obeying the immigration laws.
Or do you think Venezuelans are alien enemies?
Except Alito and Thomas had no problem with this sort of Supreme Court intervention when Biden was president.
At least liberal jurists admit they are outcome-oriented. The conservatives pretend they are innocently and objectively calling balls and strikes, even though it's plainly obvious their views on executive power, states rights, and more change on a whim based on the partisan affiliation of the executive.
Does Alito really believe nobody notices his rank, self-serving partisan hypocrisy? Get real, sir.
If you're going to tu quoque, you should at least point to what you claim they did during the Biden administration that was similar to the majority here. Unlike the recent cases where the Supreme Court has vacated lower courts' lawless orders, there's not enough recent context for anyone to figure out what you are talking about.
The Supreme Court on Friday preserved women’s access to a drug used in the most common method of abortion, rejecting lower-court restrictions while a lawsuit continues...
Two of the nine justices — Samuel Alito, the author of last year’s decision overturning Roe v. Wade, and Clarence Thomas — voted to allow restrictions to take effect, and Alito issued a four-page dissent. No other justices commented on the court’s one-paragraph order, and the court did not release a full vote breakdown.
https://apnews.com/article/supreme-court-abortion-pill-mifepristone-access-f781488016640bf571faf36096339ea4
lol that doesn't prove your point, it actually proves the opposite.
lol, you Chinese don't know shit about freedom or White people.
In the Trump case they voted against the lower court order blocking the Executive, in the Biden one for the lower court blocking the Executive. Do you need hand puppets to explain this?
"lower court order "
Was there a "lower court order" this time?
Actually, there was a Supreme Court order this time, in JGG.
Did the court interfere when Biden illegally threw our borders open, and sued states that tried to do something about it?
But then again, you leftists think that filling America with as many worthless Latin American peasants as possible is the highest good.
Wave those hands more furiously, dude (but don’t knock over your mom’s lamp)!
Alito interfered with Biden's student debt relief executive actions. It was Epstein-bestie Trump who interfered when congress was about to pass a bipartisan border bill Biden supported, after convicted felon Trump failed to pass any immigration or border bill during his first term.
Because rightwingers do not care about the border except to manipulate you gullible trailer trash who believe government should ignore the 5th Amendment to permanently disappear people into foreign prison camps like Hitler did, with no trial or due process.
What obedient little white supremacist brownshirts you are. Lower than worthless.
P.S. President Trumpflation, who incited a terror attack on Congress, has been convicted of actual crimes in court proceedings, unlike those he's snatching off the streets.
At least liberal jurists admit they are outcome-oriented.
I'm not sure if I would use that term but liberals often do acknowledge that there is discretion that leads to subjective judgments and personal judgment calls. Justice Breyer, dislike or like his jurisprudence, honestly stated how he went about judging.
Conservatives do not avoid these things. It's part of judging. They are sometimes are less explicit about them.
https://blog.dividedargument.com/p/trump-v-us-anti-canon-or-anti-hero
This talks a bit about the interplay between pragmatism and partisanship over the past couple of administrations.
I disagree with some large parts of the analysis, but it is a serious discussion I think you might enjoy.
Yes, I added Divided Argument to my weekly podcast list a while back (I listen to about 8 hours of podcasts per week, nearly all while playing solo disc golf or driving somewhere).
Two intelligent, knowledgeable people of widely diverging views, discussing current legal events, rationally and courteously, while accurately relating their opponent's positions and arguments.
All too rare, and well worth the time.
Thanks. Eh.
And his subjective judgments and personal judgment calls always seemed to lead him to the left leaning result that he personally preferred. That's the problem with that type of judging.
An originalist interpretation at least tries to cabin that into a reasonable objective pursuit. It's not perfect and it doesn't always work, but at least there is the pretense of trying.
You don't want to come with that shallow partisan jurisprudential analysis on this blog.
Breyer wrote a whole book about his method of interpretation. It was not purely subjective.
And neither was it subjective as applied:
https://empiricalscotus.com/2022/01/31/justice-breyer-legacy/
"In Breyer’s early years on the Court, he never was in a four-justice dissent along with Justices Scalia, Thomas, and Rehnquist. On the majority opinion side, he did author a 5-4 split decision in United States v. Home Concrete & Supply (2012) joined by Justices Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, and Alito and in Midland Funding v. Johnson (2017) which was joined by Justices Roberts, Kennedy, Thomas, and Alito."
It goes on from there.
Meanwhile, though originalism claims to be more objective than other methods of interpretation, it has not proven to be so in practice.
The 2nd Amendment imbroglio is a great case study since they wiped the slate clean of any precedent and decided to purely tie the right to originalism. And it's NOT been cabined. It's been vibes.
Alito is much more outcome oriented than Breyer. Breyer was pretty swingy on business regs. Alito is quite predictable on anything with a whiff of politics.
Thomas is an idealogue that when I was in law school deviated from conservativism more than I'd have thought. That has not proven the case since 2016.
The 2A Scotus decisions have not gone against precedent. The 2A was always considered an individual right, except in a few lower court opinions.
The 2A was always considered an individual right, except in a few lower court opinions
This is not relevant to anything I said.
If John Roberts thinks he is another John Marshall, he ought to look at what Andrew Jackson said to the other John....
Did you think of that same ahistorical response before or other 20 other commenters here did and it was explained to them that — even if Jackson said it, which is dubious — it doesn't mean what you think it means?
Worcester and Butler weren't released from prison until the nullification crisis and Georgia's repeal of the underlying law, were they?
He said it...
(1) Without offering an opinion on the propriety of the Supreme Court's order, I suspect the Administration (i.e. its lawyers) sealed its fate with some Justices by limiting its assurances that it "does not presently expect to remove" and "[i]f that changes, we will update the Court" to the representatives of the putative class. Whether or not we think it should have needed to, I think the Administration might have gotten the benefit of the doubt if it had offered such assurances with regard to the putative class.
(2) The disagreement on whether the Supreme Court had jurisdiction to issue this order is really a disagreement on the merits of whether the order (effectively a TRO) should have been issued (not the broader merits of the case). If you think there was a real risk that the Administration was preparing to remove members of the putative class without due process, then it's reasonable to interpret the district court's lack of immediate action as a constructive denial. Without an immediate TRO, detainees might be removed (contrary to the Supreme Court's decision in J.G.G.) and then the Administration would likely take the same position it's been taking - sorry, too late, nothing to be done about it now.
In other words, if you think there was such real risk, it would be reasonable to think the district court made the wrong decision as to whether an immediate TRO was justified based on the 4 TRO factors. Also, if you think there was such real risk, it's reasonable to think that the exigent circumstances which Justice Alito referred to were present.
The bottom line is that the Supreme Court disagreed with the district court over whether extremely expedited relief - effectively the emergency TRO the plaintiffs requested - was warranted. Given, I suspect, the administration's track record on this particular matter and the lack-of-assurances assurances I referred to previously, the Supreme Court saw the risk of due-process-less removals differently and came to a different decision regarding the weighing of the TRO factors.
We can dress this up as a disagreement over jurisdiction, but it isn't really. It's a disagreement over whether an immediate TRO was justified given the circumstances.
No. The bottom line is that the S.Ct. had no jurisdiction. And neither factually nor procedurally, no real need for any court to grant emergency relief, let alone the S.Ct. in this context. BS allegations of gangbangers submitted buy the ACLU in frenzy of proceedings before lower courts, none of which actually made any ruling. is not exactly compelling.
Bot using big boy legal words it doesn't understand.
"the district court's lack of immediate action as a constructive denial."
In an hour? That's absurd. If that is the standard, then everything is immediately appealable. File your petition for TRO and then file with SCOTUS one minute later and state that your case is the most important ever. If they agree, then presto!, automatic jurisdiction. That can't be right.
It's rare that it would be the case, but this is the rare situation where it is, given that the government has taken the position that the moment a plane is out of U.S. airspace there is no longer a judicial remedy for any of the people on that plane. (Let alone when the person has been renditioned to a foreign torture site.)
It wasn't an hour, it was more than 14 hours before the notice of appeal to the Fifth Circuit was made and longer before the application to the Supreme Court was made.
That said, it isn't about the case being the most important ever, it's about timing and other circumstances relating to the case. Given the judge's previous denial of a TRO and the reasons he gave for that denial, he certainly understood why in this situation - based on the new evidence - a TRO delayed was likely the same as a TRO denied. Given the Supreme Court's unusual action, it seems pretty clear that it understood that.
It is bizarre that Blackman suggests that the Court errs in its concern for alleged gang members. Note the word alleged. Basic to our constitution is the presumption of innocence and the requirement of due process. Shipping alleged gang members to a foreign prison is simply wrong. If the administration had evidence that they were actually gang members, it would not be scared of having to present such evidence in either federal court or immigration court.
The Trump administration has acted lawlessly and with contempt actions for lower court judges. It has no one but itself to blame if courts think that they cannot trust the administration not to fly people to El Salvador without giving them adequate notice and an opportunity for court review, as the Supreme Court required. Even Justice Alito made clear in his dissent that he expects the Trump administration to comply with the Supreme Court’s order.
Also, people keep conflating deportation and imprisonment. We aren't just deporting people, we're imprisoning them without trial in a third country beyond the reach of the US legal system.
If they were just being deported, they would be walking around the streets of San Salvador.
Imprisonment should require a criminal conviction, regardless of whether the prison is on US soil or not. It's like Trump is just randomly rounding up people off the streets and then using "deportation" as a cover for violating habeas corpus. Oh, sorry, they're not on US soil anymore, now we don't have to have a trial! Imprisonment for life!
We aren't just deporting people, we're imprisoning them without trial in a third country beyond the reach of the US legal system.
No, we are not.
They're in prison by the planeload, and the admin is doing photo ops about it, and nary a trial to be seen.
Yes, we are. According to Trump's argument, we are - he's the one saying that it's not possible to bring Abrego Garcia back because he's in foreign custody now. He's beyond the reach of the US legal system - according to Trump.
If Roman Polanski were to be returned to the US, what would happen next?
That's because Blackman doesn't give a damn about the constitution. He shows his true colors when claiming that illegally imprisoning people in a slave labor camp with no trial is hardly a big deal. Anyone who believes in due process for the accused, and that Trump isn't a King, has their "priorities" in the wrong place.
At least Blackman is exposing how truly vile and ugly he is.
Yah, boo, &c.
Okay, now as to the thing itself:
As I noted on one of the earlier posts, using the Court's own search function on the orders database with my (normally used) javascript blocker suggests that this sentence citing the Act is the only such citation in the database.
This post's suggests that equitably, the speedy injunction request didn't give the district court time to act. The difficulty here is that the argument then (correctly ) relies on jurisdiction not being subject to equitable discretion. Once the notice of appeal had been filed, though, the office on the lower floor was locked against them, and the only possible relief came from the C-suite. And if the circuit thought the timing an abuse of discretion, it could have sent it back down.
Conversely, the question of an appealable order is the quintessence of equitable jurisdiction. Hence the interlocutory order exceptions. So while there might be a prudential barrier, there isn't a barrier based in the Federal Constitution.
Last, note the fact that this occurred on a religious holiday. True, Washington crossed the Delaware for the Hessian ambuscado on Christmas Eve, but not all the philosophers and politicians of the Enlightenment thought that religion was a means of deception. Thankfully, a German painter painted a monumental canvas memorializing the event, making it easier for us to afterward wonder and talk about whether that was a good thing. If the administration tried to imprison a guest of the state and sent them off to perpetual imprisonment in a third country based on a shady tattoo on Good Friday, well, I think the event would speak for itself. I see no reason these things should ever be forgot.
Mr. D.
Edited to add: Note that Roberts' earlier order is on his own letterhead, and not in the sans-serif of the order list -- and more importantly, it was signed as the CJUS. Historically, the Anglo-American judgeship requires both appointment and commission, and there's at least the possibility that his constitutional office provides for the latter in any contingency.
Bottom line, Thomalito would take the regime's word for it.
Even in the face of video of prisoner busses headed to the airport.
The dissent’s assertion that orders such as this should only issue in truly exigent circumstances has already aged poorly.
What videos? Is this like the pee tape video from Moscow? In other words, a sick leftist fantasy.
Already linked a few times in here, sealion. But I'll copy and paste, to rub your nose in it like a puppy lacking self-control:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/legal-fight-raged-ice-buses-filled-venezuelans-heading-airport-turned-rcna202007
A lot of hyperbole from NBC, some typical gangbanger puff pieces (why do you guys like illegal gangbangers so much?) but here's the thing, no proof whatsoever of any imminent deportations of any parties to any habeas proceeding. Even taking the NBC garbage at their word (hard to say that with a straight face after the Russian collusion hoax and lap top lies), the buses turned around BEFORE any S.Ct. ruling. That would be evidence that nothing was going to happen, even assuming these unwarranted garbage suppositions provided any indication of any imminent action. Truly pathetic. And let's add your side's favorite word: disinformation, or do you prefer misinformation? leftist censors can be so picky so I don't want to offend.
They were just going for a lovely joyride!
Riva, you're whinging a whole lot about the S.Ct. issuing an order that, if you're correct, didn't make a difference because there were no deportations in progress.
So why so are you so upset? If nothing was happening, the order didn't change the status quo one whit.
One might think you approve of the Trump administration's effort to mislead the courts and generate another "oopsie, now we can't get them back" setup, and are spewing legal gibberish because the S.Ct. saw through that bool and sheet.
Even if that were a rational conclusion, which it isn't, it misstates the legal standard. "Proof" is not needed to obtain interim relief.
Also, the victims were told, in writing, that they were being deported.
What's pathetic is you arguing that the SC is stopping something which you deny is happening.
Bottom line. Alito and Thomas would prefer the Court actually have jurisdiction.
Your legal analysis and persuasive writing here are truly ... amazing.
Are you, like Blackman, associated with a Top-200 law school?
I've never seen liberals fight harder than they're fighting now for illegal immigrants. Not one of these people objected to Biden's DHS flooding the country with untold millions of them. Not one TRO issued. When people tell you who they are, believe them.
This case does not involve illegal immigrants.
There actually was a case challenging Biden’s reversal of Trump immigration policies.
“I love the poorly educated!” DJT
When people tell you who they are, believe them.
Way ahead of you, Kleppe.
This case is about basic civil rights for everyone. And if I were, I am proud to stand up for the rights of those society dislikes.
You're wrong, as usual.
Kleppe, when you're an awaiting-charges detainee (or just whisked off the street into an unmarked van), hustled onto a plane and disappeared into a cooperating foreign gulag because the current government doesn't like your kind...you'll just say Oopsie, they they must have a reason so, oh well, this is necessary for the greatest good.
Right?
Or would you rather hope someone will stand up for due process for the rights of those, like you, who society dislikes?
Blackman, too, doesn't know what "ex parte" means. (Note that Alito didn't use that incorrect term.) The court not waiting for the other side's response does not make the application "ex parte."
Well, what's the proper term?
I don't know. What's Latin for Bad Faith?
But if you want to steelman, here's your opponent's argument, from Mark Joseph Stern at Slate relating what he called "...three remarkable aspects of the court’s decision":
"I don't know."
It was a simple question aimed at David Notimportant yet you chose to not answer it in several paragraphs.
As is your tendency, Bumble, you replied to Nieporent with a weird irrelevant non sequitur question.
I replied to you citing the on-topic reasoning of the issue you were trying to obfuscate—why the term Josh used did not apply. And I really was hoped there actually was a Legal-Latin term for a Judge to say "we're pretty sure this pleading is a flat-out lie."
He really should change his name to Mr. Sealion.
Or Mr. Weird irrelevant non sequitur question.
To his credit his recent tendency to post 'only' weird irrelevant non sequitur questions is less offensive than his previous modus of dishing out profane insults and racial slurs.
Many thanks for your responses to a bird that eats mosquitos, a former resident of Brontitall and one of Joe Biden's colored kids.
Making the VC Great Again.
"one of Joe Biden's colored kids"
Iway okespay ootay oonsay
OK, not the "Legal-Latin" phrase I was looking for, but it works!
The provision cited in the order:
The Supreme Court and all courts established by Act of Congress may issue all writs necessary or appropriate in aid of their respective jurisdictions and agreeable to the usages and principles of law.
It is fitting and proper for the context. Others have spelled out why. Steve Vladeck noted the dissent on Bluesky. A reply asked:
"Is it me, a non lawyer, or is this deliberately missing the point by a million miles?"
Vladeck: It's not you.
see also:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/legal-fight-raged-ice-buses-filled-venezuelans-heading-airport-turned-rcna202007
A series of Blackman lies. There is nothing "unclear" about why Boasberg is doing something.
(1) While SCOTUS held in JGG that he did not have jurisdiction to entertain habeas or habeas-like relief, it did not order him to dismiss the case; there were other claims in the case, and therefore the case remains open.
(2) The ACLU filed a motion in the JGG case seeking this relief.
(3) Boasberg scheduled a hearing to address that motion, as judges routinely do.
(4) After hearing from both sides, Boasberg correctly concluded that SCOTUS's JGG decision prevented him from granting the relief requested, and denied it.
Boasberg did not "demand concessions from" anyone. He inquired about the relevant facts. Ensign made some (weaselly) representations in response to Boasberg's inquiries. He was very careful not to assert that a plane wouldn't take off at 12:01 a.m. on Sunday.
With this kind of us-versus-them level of analysis Blackman should just join Mark Levin as a cohost.
They share the same level of fidelity to law and facts, and the same emotionalist throughline of seething resentment. AND Levin got an admin recognition-job recently.
Nice analysis! Just kidding, it's just ad hominems, per usual. Keep pounding the table
So you don't think the OP betrays an us-vs-them level of analysis?
Or is that the style of analysis you approve of?
It was not, in fact, ad hominems. You don't know what the term means.
If the Supreme Court issues an advisory ex parte proclamation, does the Executive have to obey it? Probably not.
I suppose that's probably true. But this was (a) not advisory; (b) not ex parte; and (c) not a proclamation. It was an order.
Trump could easily prevail from here.
The SCOTUS order invited the government to respond after the 5th circuit issued its ruling. They have done so, arguing there should be no class action permitted. That would allow Trump to deport anyone who has not filed for habeas review. While it is true it's a case-by-case determination whether someone is a member of TdA, a class could be certified based on the AEA not being applicable to TdA members.
If Trump prevails on denying a class action, what can the ACLU do?
If Trump prevails on denying a class action then nothing will stop their illegal actions. They will try to deport so many people that there will not be enough lawyers to represent them. And they will demand strict adherence to procedures that pro se filings will be rejected. Throw in them "accidentally" telling detainees wrong information about how to file and limiting their aces to the means to file. All that adds up to denial of civil rights on a grand scale.
good. The constitution is not a suicide pact. Sneak in illegally, get sent home. bye.
The precedent of having to follow due process before deportation is the status quo ante.
Our Republic was not in danger and is committing suicide to continue as it was under Biden, Trump, Obama, Bush etc. etc.
OTOH, if Trump succeeds, you get unreviewed deportations and imprisonments of whomever the administration wants.
So here you are pretending to care about the law, cargo culting legalish terms like advisory opinion and ex parte.
You don't know or care about the law; it's an obstacle to getting what you want, which is binding the outgroup and protecting your ingroup.
One of the favorite lines of those who find the Constitution to be a pesky obstacle.
People who come in illegally start off with a crime, breaking the law.
That's the thing about due process - even like Ted Bundy gets due process.
Your statements reveal some kind of pre-liberalism mindset.
Maybe check out the Magna Carta? You're quite behind the times!
1. Begging the question. Absent a judicial hearing, we only have the Executive's word for it that they're illegal.
2. And deporting anyone to a prison without due process is contrary to 5A.,
Why do you oppose the Constitution? Are you a Communist who wants to undermine the US by undermining its most important institution?
Not even! The use of the AEA (if the use were valid) allows them to deport people here legally. The issue is whether they're members of TdA, and we only have Trumo's word that they are members.
True, though the regime will use the term "illegal" in all cases, AFAICT, as a framing device
Trump says they can be deported because they are members of TdA even if they are here legally.
There's nothing "sucidal" about due process, and also, this isn't about people who snuck in illegally.
File 2,000,000 habeus petitions.
The word "if" is doing a lot of work there. This case ("can the AEA be applied in the manner Trump wants?") appears to be a very strong candidate for class actions - see Fed R Civ P 23. There's a question of law common to all class members; lead plaintiffs that are probably as good as any as representatives for the putative class; no individual questions of fact; massive and obvious judicial efficiency.
It's a pretty poor vehicle for the Gov't to argue that class actions should never be allowed in the habeas context.
The related questions of what constitutes adequate notice and opportunity for a hearing are also common questions of law.
But it is true that without a class action, this is going to be very difficult. The ACLU already told Boasberg that because of SCOTUS's ruling that habeas petitions had to be filed in the district of confinement, that the ACLU was going to be forced to file protective cases in all 94 judicial districts. But they were assuming they could file class actions in those districts.
Of course, each victim is still going to need an individual hearing, but at least if the ACLU prevails on the class questions, it won't have to cross its fingers and hope that it hears about each one in time.
So some guy who teaches at a top 200 law school thinks that he Supreme Court doesn't have jurisdiction.
Okay.
I'd note that what Justice Alito says in this passage on the timing is wrong. It surprises me that he'd be this sloppy about what happened procedurally, especially considering that he took some time before issuing his statement / opinion. (Referring to it as sloppy is giving him the benefit of the doubt; the alternative is that he was intentionally deceptive on this point.)
"It is questionable whether the applicants complied with the general obligation to seek emergency injunctive relief in the District Court before asking for such relief from an appellate court. Fed. Rules App. Proc. 8(a)(1)(A), (a)(1)(C). When the applicants requested such relief in the District Court, they insisted on a ruling within 45 minutes on Good Friday afternoon, and when the District Court did not act within 133 minutes, they filed a notice of appeal, which the District Court held deprived it of jurisdiction. See ECF Doc. 41, at 3–4. It is doubtful that this aborted effort satisfied Federal Rule of Appellate Procedure 8(a)(1)(C)."
The applicants requested the relief in question, i.e. the emergency injunctive relief from the district court which he refers to, at 12:34 AM on the 18th. That is according to Judge Hendrix. Approximately 12 hours later, at 12:48 PM on the 18th, they made a motion for an emergency status conference. It was then that they indicated they'd ask the Fifth Circuit for emergency relief if the district court didn't grant a TRO by 1:30 PM or hold a status conference. Approximately 133 minutes later, again according to Judge Hendrix, the applicants filed the notice of appeal (to the Fifth Circuit).
We can argue whether 13 hours versus 45 minutes and 14-1/2 hours versus 133 minutes makes a difference to the point he was trying to make. Regardless, my point remains. Justice Alito's claim in support of his position was either pretty sloppy (and wrong) or intentionally deceptive.
That said, I'd also point out that the 12:34 AM filing was a renewed emergency application for TRO. The judge had already denied substantially the same application for a TRO the day before. The renewed application was made based on new information which went directly to (and which was contrary to) one of the points Judge Hendrix had relied on in denying the original application.
He indicated he had "no basis upon which to believe that the government is going to defy the Supreme Court’s clear directives in J.G.G. or the government’s own representations to the Supreme Court and to this Court" and that "in light of J.G.G. and the government’s representations in its response (Dkt. No. 19), the petitioners’ conjecture [that removal flights might be imminent - Tilted] is too speculative to support the exceptional remedy requested."
The point is, there was a ruling from the district court on substantially the same requested relief which the Supreme Court was effectively asked for. There wasn't, however, a ruling from the district court on a renewed (within 24 hours) request for that relief based on new information.
Good take from Prof. Dorf over at Dorf On Law: Is the Alito/Thomas Dissent From the 1 AM Order Naive, Disingenuous, or Callous? He writes:
"Yet the plaintiffs argued that the failure of the district court to rule immediately was a de facto PI denial, because of the imminent risk that the Trump administration would remove them. Justice Alito was unmoved by that prospect, either because he thought it unlikely (naive), pretended it was unlikely (disingenuous), or didn't care (callous)."
I'm not sure as between disingenuous and callous, but I personally doubt Alito is actually that naive.
There's something called a Steelman approach (as opposed to the more common Strawman fallacy): to validly criticize something I oppose, first I must learn my opponent's best supporting arguments. Only if I can restate an opponent's position in a way that opponent would agree is fair, do I have something I can validly argue against.
Although it's likely Josh Blackman and Justice Alito are aware of it, they both seem inherently unable to use it. Anyway, here's the rationale behind the SCOTUS ruling, from those opposed to it:
By the way, I'd like to steelman Alito's dissent...if anyone would recommend the the best-reasoned defense of it they've seen, I'd appreciate it. Because I'm pretty certain it isn't Blackman's.
"Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas are national treasures."
How can anyone, including his students, take Blackman seriously when he makes such an inane comment about the two most corrupt justices in our history?
That's quite a statement, and you are entitled to your opinion but not to non-existent facts.
It's a fact that Alito and Thomas have taken gifts worth hundreds of thousands of dollars from their so-called friends, and they forgot to report some of them. You don't think that's corrupt? Most of us making $300,000 a year manage to live pretty good lives without handouts from rich people.
Alito and Thomas seem to have forgotten they voted that the President is above the law.
Alito nails it again, and with Thomas as well. And so does Josh. Its clear his haters have no good arguments against him, except than he explains what the right thing is. That they hate and cannot stand.
What are the parts of the dissent where you think Alito nailed it?
What are your favorite bits from Blackman's OP?
Because over your 12 minutes of posting this afternoon you did a lot of cheerleading and not a lot of actual engagement with anyone.
As someone who does appellate work for a living, what bothers me the most about these decisions is not the result. Whether these guys stay in an ICE detention facility or get deported to CECOT has no special relevance to me or my family.
What bothers me the most is that these decisions are not law and don't even pretend to try to be law. They are realpolitik. Roberts and Barrett (and possibly Gorsuch and Kavanaugh) did not want the optics of seeing planes landing at CECOT over Easter weekend and seeing the detainees manhandled on television again. It does not fit their worldview. They don't like it.
And for that reason---and no legal reason for the reasons that Alito and the author outline---they conjure jurisdiction to issue a "ruling." It is embarrassing to the legal profession and to the rule of law. It is the very reason that judges should not be involved in policy. If we look bad to the world, then that is on Trump and on us for electing Trump.
It is not the job of the judiciary to act as a moral guardian for the society to make it decent and wholesome. We do that. If I wanted to do that in my career I would have been a legislator or lobbyist. I don't know what this is,, but it is not law and really doesn't do a good job of trying to be viewed as law. It's just the result that matters to everyone now.
I didn't see your substantive rebuttal of why Dean Foods doesn't support using the All Writs Act in this case.
"...what bothers me the most about these decisions is not the result."
[Narrator] What bothers him the most about these decisions is the result.
Do you really think Alito and Blackman are the final word on what corresponds with legal rules of jurisdiction and what does not?
And perhaps that if you want to worry about a results oriented jurisprudence, one that only wants the result to be people put in El Salvador beyond jurisdiction, without caring about how, is as much a problem as any other?
Leaning on your own authority to make zero legal arguments.
Wow, you must do some bang-up appellate briefs.
I also do appellate work. We're dealing here with incidental appellate practice: motions. When moving for or opposing a stay, one does normally have to talk about the chances of success (or not) on the full appeal. But here, for the first time ever AFAIK, we have a respondent hinting broadly that it might disregard the order disposing of the merits, or take actions which would make the appeal moot.
That combined with the balance of harms to each party seems pretty much dispositive, at least at the emergency order timeframe:
If the government is telling the truth, the S.Ct.'s order would have no actual impact on the government; no harm in granting it.
If the government is dissembling to avoid a binding order and hoping to generate another "Oopsie! Now we can't get them back, so sad!" moment, the putative class is irreparably harmed; the court should absolutely grant it.
This was an emergency application for interim relief, and it resulted in a order staying the status quo to preserve their own jurisdiction. What sort of legal analysis do you think is required in such a situation?
From Ken White (Popehat) on Bluesky:
Angel of the Lord: He is not here, He is risen, just as He said.
Come and see the place where He lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead.
Alito: Okay, first of all, this violates ALL sorts of rules
Thomas: This was a LAWFUL execution, who is God to interfere
And now some words from the man who some on this thread find to be a true Christian and their sworn leader:
https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1913956955711799324/photo/1
For those who do not wish to click Donald Trump dedicated his Easter message to attacking the “Radical Left Lunatics,” “the worst and most incompetent President,” “Sleepy Joe Biden,” and once again falsely claimed he won the 2020 election.
There is not one ounce of grace in him. He is unable to rise above his juvenile, petty grievances, even for a moment, even when his high position of responsibility calls for it.
This has been abundantly clear for many years now and the people who voted for him either have been too incurious to notice, too intent on smiting their enemies to care, or, for many I am sure, thought this type of person was just peachy. Because it gave them leave to be just as graceless.
Nothing says mor about the hollowing out of American faith than the evangelical embrace of Trump.
Which even now has not been shaken by Al, he has done and said.
Let's asuume that SCOTUS went the other way, the administration sent these guys to Equador, and SCOTUS finds the administration viloted JGG? What is the remedy? Most importantly, if the administration made a mistake, how do you cure the harm to the individual?
Not sure I understand the argument on lack of jurisdiction here. There are questions about whether the courts have subject matter jurisdiction maybe, jurisdiction over certain parties (the President, putative class members) or appellate jurisdiction given the TRO stage. But courts uncontroversially (until now) had jurisdiction to determine their jurisdiction, and issue orders preserving the status quo ante until it decides. "Until its judgment declining jurisdiction should be announced, it had authority, from the necessity of the case, to make orders to preserve the existing conditions and the subject of the petition." United States v. United Mine Workers of Am., 330 U.S. 258, 291 (1947).
I read Alito's statement as questioning the ultimate outcome of the jurisdictional questions, and criticizing the court for intervening as a prudential matter. But do you think he's claiming the Court didn't have jurisdiction to enter an administrative stay until it can decide the merits? That's would be a huge change to existing law, it seems?
Alito is claiming SCOTUS does not have jurisdiction until an order from a lower court is appealed (28 US Code 2106). But, SCOTUS issued this order on the basis of the All Writs Act (28 US Code 1651) which permits it to intervene in extraordinary circumstances prior to lower court orders where it is need to preserve jurisdiction it may later on have (in this case, to stop any imminent deportations).
Jeez! This is turning into the Blackman conspiracy.
SCOTUS gave POTUS a chance to do the right thing. POTUS responding by mocking the system and showing his intent to refuse to act in good faith to comply with court orders. This is the result. This is just FAFO at SCOTUS scale.
Barrett is proving to be a total rookie and out of her depth.
I think they removed that bad comment, relegating all the responses to random unsorted weirdness at the bottom of the thread.
Yawn.
Given the lawlessness by SCOTUS here, Trump should have just deported these guys. Then claim that the order wasn't properly served. These late-night court proceedings are ridiculous.
I think that there's not much going on here.
4 SCOTUS Justices probably didn't want want to be bothered on Easter weekend after the ACLU threatened to file suit in all US district courts.
You first
"Go ahead and kill yourself" is both ad hominem and beyond the pale. It's not acceptable and has nothing to do with the question of if he is right or not.
That's an easy mute.
Mr Shoot Illegals, throw trans off bridges, run over protestors with snowplows, etc., weighs in on beyond the pale.
I agree. There’s no place for that. No one deserves that.
This might be the first completely correct thing you've ever said on the VC.
I agree, and wish you would adhere to that standard in your own comments.
I was once taught, "Clean up your own back yard first." Good advice.
Reported to the CCP for wasting their tax remnabi.
Don't forget Mr. Those Murdered Sex Workers Got What They Deserved.
There is a big difference -- although I don't ever recall personally advocating throwing trannies off bridges, although I do sometimes reference a certain 1984 incident in Bangor.
The right of a sovereign state to use deadly force is well established, and I do not believe that the concept of a pedestrian right of way extends to deliberate blockades.
Magnus meant to write CPS, which he’s used to his mom being reported to.
I'm not really sure the Trump administration is all that different from the CCP. More Maoist than the contemporary CCP for sure. Illegal imprisonments, purging of enemies, cultural revolution, state control of media, attacks on intellectuals, efforts to control the economy according to a central plan. Checks all the boxes.
Ed's right, but so is Malika.
He's maybe the worst messenger to try and object.
"Assumption of risk"?
No one should advocate for any, but if you’re going to play that way the right to kill yourself is probably more moral than that of gunning down unarmed migrants or running over people for blocking the right of way, ya creep.
It's called using deadly force in a continuum of use of force, and refusing to be kidnapped.
In both cases, there is the false presumption that the persons who created the situation aren't the ones responsible for the final outcome of the situation.
Answer this: If I shoot at police officers and they fire back, accidentially hitting & killing Suzie Sweatpants, am I not legally responsible for her murder?
Did I shoot her?
Did I tell the cops to shoot her?
No, but I created the situation. Same thing here.
There is strong competition for “worst” around here.
Fortunately for the fabric of space time, Dr. Ed managed to be factually wrong even though he was morally right, so it's still not an error-free post from him. "Go kill yourself," while reprehensible, is not, in any way, an ad hominem.
It's's always funny reading Marxist leftists like you project as you do here.
I'm a centrist libertarian. I hate Marxists and it saddens me that the Republicans have turned into basically a right-wing version of the Bolsheviks.
No.
True, but the first sentence was...