Friday Open Thread

What's on your mind?

Comments

[not guilty]

I am puzzled as to why the Supreme Court has scheduled oral argument for May 15 on the government's application for a partial stay of preliminary injunctions issued by three District Courts regarding the Executive Order which purports to deny birthright citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 1. The government is not seeking relief on the merits, but complains merely of the nationwide scope of the orders.

As the brief in opposition filed on behalf of the States of Washington, Arizona, Illinois and Oregon recites, "Being directed to follow the law as it has been universally understood for over 125 years is not an emergency warranting the extraordinary remedy of a stay."

I wonder if the Chief Justice has grown weary of micromanaging the executive branch of government from the shadow docket, and accordingly wants to put some guardrails in place by the end of the current term regarding when relief by means of that kind of hasty, truncated process should be available. After all, the Chief and his colleagues have vacations to attend to during the summer months, and I doubt that they want to fool with Trump's bullshit incessantly during that time.

[John F. Carr]

If I were on the Supreme Court I would use this case to tell lower courts to stop issuing so many broad injunctions. I would tell lower courts to be more careful about standing. It is possible to rein in the lower courts without altering the law of birthright citizenship.

[not guilty]

How is this case an appropriate vehicle to do that? Are preliminary injunctions applicable only to babies born in Washington, Arizona, Illinois, Oregon, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Delaware, Hawaii, Maine, Maine, Maryland, Nevada, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Vermont, Michigan and the District of Columbia and to members of CASA, Inc. and Asylum Seeker Advocacy Project, but not to other babies born to aliens, workable?

To ask the question is to answer it.

[Michael P]

Yes, to ask the question is to answer it: The Supreme Court needs to draw the line somewhere, and this kind of case might make the lawless lower court judges actually pay attention, considering that they have ignored and disrespected the previous attempts at correction.

[not guilty]

To what "previous attempts at correction" do you refer? Please be specific.

[Michael P]

To ask the question is to answer it, to coin a phrase.

[not guilty]

Uh no.

[Dan Schiavetta]

IOW, he has no answer. He made a statement with no basis in fact and you called him on it.

[Michael P]

I have better things to do than to engage in length with a sea lion.

[Dan Schiavetta]

Not responsive.

It was a simple question, asking you to back up something you had just said, which you could have easily answered if you knew your comment was true.

[Michael P]

The hit sea lion barks, to coin another phrase.

[Sarcastr0]

As has been pointed out before, sealioning refers to unreasonable and repeated requests to supply information.

When drawing this line a single request for any information at all to back up your claim seems squarely on the reasonable side of the spectrum.

[David Nieporent]

As has been pointed out before, sealioning refers to unreasonable and repeated requests to supply information.

And typically, information that has already been supplied. Like when people say, "What crime was Trump convicted of? Does anyone know?" over and over again. (It's one thing to contend that the prosecution was factually or legally illegitimate, but to keep pretending that the theory of the case was a mystery is sealioning.)

[not guilty]

Riddle me this, Michael P.

Suppose SCOTUS limits the preliminary injunctions to the plaintiffs who brought suit. A child is born to alien parents in Washington. The family moves to Idaho, and the infant is treated at a hospital there. Are the hospital services payable under Medicaid, because the child is a U.S. citizen? Or not, because the infant is not?

Keep in mind that alienage is a suspect classification for equal protection purposes, Graham v. Richardson, 403 U.S. 365 (1971), and aliens, legal or not, are entitled to due process and equal protection. Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202 (1982).

[Michael P]

If we assume the missing details needed to complete your hypo, there would be a line of loonie leftist lawyers a mile long to represent that family pro bobo, and 80% of them would be shouting "issue preclusion".

[Sarcastr0]

Lame dodge.

[not guilty]

Pro bobo? As in the clown?

And how in hell would issue preclusion apply? There is no final order, and the State of Idaho is not a party to the birthright citizen litigation.

If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch. And don't throw around legal jargon if you don't know the meaning.

[Michael P]

Yes, like clowns. Clowns who apparently think states determine who is a citizen of the US.

[Sarcastr0]

Try reading ng's hypo again. He's getting at an EPC issue with the standard you posited.

[Michael P]

His objection was that the state of Idaho would not be covered by issue preclusion, in this hypothetical case where Idaho is somehow determining whether this hypothetical child of aliens is a US citizen. I was addressing the boneheaded objection.

[not guilty]

I know he's a fish, and I know he's in a barrel. Does that mean I shouldn't still shoot him?

[Sarcastr0]

I'm enjoying your sport, ng!

[Dr. Ed 2]

The question is moot because the hospital would have to eat the bill under the concept of unpaid care -- which is why some hospitals are closing their emergency rooms.

[Zarniwoop]

ng, I'm all for shooting, but the dynamite you're using is a tad unsporting.

[SRG2]

Who does decide?

[jb]

Seems like there's lots of cases that are much more clearly on the wrong side of the line. To the extent that you think nationwide injunctions should be a thing at all, this seems to be one of the most reasonable examples of one. Or put another way: if you don't like nationwide injunctions, is this really the case you want to use to prove they're bad?

(Then again, from my perspective it's a happy feature of the Trump administration that they attempt to do everything in the dumbest way possible.)

[David Nieporent]

Yeah; to repost what I just posted in the Blackman birthright thread:

But this is a terrible vehicle for restricting nationwide injunctions. If there's one area of law where a universal rule is de rigueur, it's citizenship. (Note, indeed, that the constitution only permits Congress to create a uniform rule for naturalization.) You can't have birthright citizenship in some states or circuits but not others.

[Zarniwoop]

This.

[jb]

You guys know that the federal government maintains the terrorist watch list, right? So if he was on it, Noem could just look in her own database and see. No need to try to indirectly figure it out via old records of a traffic stop.

Also, since we're apparently blaming Christopher Wray for being asleep at the wheel for this big terrorist threat, he was appointed by.... Donald Trump.

[jb]

Sigh. This is in the wrong place and I only noticed after the edit window was closed. I'm going to re-reply in the right place. Ignore this one!

[Don Nico]

"the Chief and his colleagues have vacations to attend to during the summer months"
That kind of reason is not going to get a lot of sympathy from the working class.

[Bwaaah]

"Democracy dies during vacation."

[EllaWilson]

Since the lower court judges have decided they do not have to follow SCOTUS decisions anymore, this is the only way Roberts can try to get some attention.

It doesn't matter what the big court decides, the local boys and girls will continue to do their own thing. Baby Bush's selection for chief has let the court system compost into nothing more than weak plant food.

[not guilty]

"Since the lower court judges have decided they do not have to follow SCOTUS decisions anymore, this is the only way Roberts can try to get some attention."

Which specific SCOTUS decision has any lower federal court failed to follow? Please give a specific citation of the decision, and tell us in what regard the lower court failed to abide by it.

If you can.

[not guilty]

Still waiting, EllaWilson. You made you assertion. Now support it or admit that you are unable to do so.

[EllaWilson]

Dude...calm...down...
I work for a living. I'm not you.
“ORDERED, on the court’s own motion, that the district court’s contempt-related order entered on April 16, 2025, be administratively stayed pending further order of the court. The purpose of this administrative stay is to give the court sufficient opportunity to consider the emergency motion for a stay pending appeal or a writ of mandamus and should not be construed in any way as a ruling on the merits of that motion,” the appeals court said."

breathe...

[not guilty]

And what District Court failed to comply with that administrative stay before the stay expired?

[not guilty]

Still waiting, EllaWilson. What District Court failed to comply with that administrative stay before the stay expired?

[Commenter_XY]

NG, will SCOTUS actually address the question on birthright citizenship, and answer it, in this case? Or is it just process?

[David Nieporent]

In the case, maybe. At this stage, no.

[Kazinski]

Information is starting to trickle out about the Human trafficking allegations made by DHS Secretary Noem against Garcia. She hasn't released any details but they are starting to leak:

"Kilmar Abrego Garcia was stopped in Tennessee for driving erratically and speeding by a state trooper in late November 2022 and was found to be driving an SUV full of people coming from Texas with an expired Maryland license, according to the documents.

“Subject was observed speeding and unable to maintain its lane, and was subsequently pulled over,” one entry stated.

"Encountering officer decided not to cite the subject for driving infractions but gave him a warning citation for driving with an expired driver's license," the memo stated. Maryland is one of the states that issue driver's licenses to illegal aliens.

The circumstances of the stop led the trooper to believe that human trafficking was involved, according to a summary of the incident recorded in Homeland’s immigration alert system on Dec. 6, 2022."

"The vehicle that Abrego Garcia was driving during the traffic stop was itself flagged by HSI's Baltimore field office as a suspected human trafficking or smuggling vehicle in use by an unspecified target in a Maryland investigation, according to a separate document reviewed by Just the News."

https://justthenews.com/government/courts-law/deported-migrants-alleged-gang-ties-suspected-trafficking-illegal-status
A Tennessee Star report (which is not a mainstream outlet) quotes two unnamed sources in the Tennessee Highway Patrol, with additional information:

The Star learned from sources familiar with the incident that Abrego Garcia was stopped for an unknown reason on December 6, 2022, and that the THP officer responsible for the stop immediately discovered Abrego Garcia was transporting seven passengers, with eight individuals inside the vehicle.

During a nearly two-hour traffic stop, the THP officer determined that Abrego Garcia (pictured above) was operating the vehicle without a valid driver’s license and began searching for information about him.

Something about the traffic stop caused concern in the mind of the THP officer that other law enforcement agencies should be alerted. One source told The Star that THP ultimately discovered Abrego Garcia was on a terrorist watch list, but could not locate Abrego Garcia on a deportation list. Another source told The Star that THP did not discover Abrego Garcia on a terrorist watch list but that another one of the seven passengers in the vehicle may have been on a terrorist watch list.

THP subsequently called the FBI, which was then led by former Director Christopher Wray under the Biden administration. The FBI instructed the THP officers at the scene to capture photographs of all eight people in the vehicle and document its contents.

Once the photographs were captured, this source told The Star that the FBI requested THP release all eight individuals and that the THP officers complied with this request."

I'm not claiming this is defenitive, and I did notice the inconsistency about the terrorist watchlist from the two THP officers.

But now that is 3 sources, a Homeland Security log, and two THP officers linking Garcia to human trafficking as Noem alleged.

[Mr. Bumble]

So, an illegal alien, under an order of deportation is allowed to go on his merry way because? and in 2022 is stopped by the police. He was driving on an expired license, possibly on the terrorist watchlist, with a car full of suspected illegal aliens and is allowed to go on his merry way.
What's wrong with this picture?

[Frank Drackman]

At least he didn’t crash a 767 into the World Trade Center like Moe-hammed Atta did after being pulled over by a Maryland State Trooper in 2001 for driving on an expired license and let go with a warning

[Magister]

Atta was apparently stopped (twice) for traffic violations in Florida, where Maryland State Troopers have no authority.

[Martinned2]

What's wrong with this picture?

That you feel the need to lie and make stuff up to justify your hatred for brown people?

[Mr. Bumble]

I did neither, but you be you.

[Frank Drackman]

Pretty sure Moe-hammed Atta did what I said, and I love Brown People, just not those who come here Ill- legally

[Michael P]

Projection is a hell of a drug.

[Joe_dallas]

Martin - the only person that lied is you

[Joe_dallas]

Human trafficer that the Dems are defending

Two restraining orders in 2020 and 2021

caught in 2019 with 2 M-13 gang members

https://tennesseestar.com/justice/bidens-fbi-ordered-tn-highway-patrol-to-release-maryland-man-recently-deported-to-el-salvador-after-he-was-detained-in-2022-traffic-stop-on-suspicion-of-human-trafficking/tpappert/2025/04/16/

[David Nieporent]

You correctly note that the story makes no sense. But somehow I suspect that rather than concluding the story is false, you're going to blame Democrats in some way.

(Note that the FBI wouldn’t even have been the right agency to have called if they found illegal immigrants; ICE would be.)

[tylertusta]

Human trafficking is a crime and is not an immigration offense. The FBI would be the correct agency to contact.

https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/violent-crime/human-trafficking

[not guilty]

Uh, there is nothing in Kazinski's comment nor in the article he linked to that would corroborate any suspicion of human trafficking.

The fact that the Highway Patrol let Abrego Garcia go following the traffic stop strongly suggests the contrary.

[tylertusta]

I was replying to David's parenthetical comment that human trafficking is an immigration matter, not an FBI matter. That is flatly untrue.

If one suspects human trafficking, you contact the FBI, not ICE.

[not guilty]

The word "if" is doing some heavy lifting there, tylertusta.

And David's comment did not refer to human trafficking. He talked about if (statue authorities) found illegal immigrants.

[tylertusta]

No, "if" is doing the appropriate amount of lifting.

[Joe_dallas]

NG - you ignored DN customary deception. The news article stated he was suspected of human trafficking. DN deflected with intentionally mislabeling the case as an immigration.

[David Nieporent]

First, what you're saying is not correct; ICE/Homeland Security investigates human trafficking. See, e.g., https://www.ice.gov/about-ice/hsi/investigate/human-smuggling

But in any case, that's not what I was talking about, although I suppose if I were writing a brief rather than a blog comment I might have been a bit clearer. What I was saying was that apprehending/detaining illegal immigrants is an ICE matter, not an FBI matter.

[tylertusta]

So, an illegal alien, under an order of deportation is allowed to go on his merry way because?

Because open borders was the unofficial policy of the Biden administration. That administration saw wife-beater and gang member Garcia as someone who should remain in the United States.

[David Nieporent]

So, an illegal alien, under an order of deportation is allowed to go on his merry way because?

Because open borders was the unofficial policy of the Biden administration. That administration saw wife-beater and gang member Garcia as someone who should remain in the United States.

You are confused. In 2019, Donald Trump was president. And yet the Donald Trump administration released Garcia — who is neither a wife beater nor gang member — from custody.

[tylertusta]

In 2019

You are confused.

"Kilmar Abrego Garcia was stopped in Tennessee for driving erratically and speeding by a state trooper in late November 2022"

"So, an illegal alien, under an order of deportation is allowed to go on his merry way because?"

Who was President in November of 2022? I think his name rhymes with "Schmoe Schmiden."

who is neither a wife beater

'She alleged she pushed him off of her, and "he then punched" and "[scratched] me on my left eye, leaving me bleeding."'

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/wife-man-mistakenly-deported-el-salvador-filed-2021-protective-order-against-him-kilmar-abrego-garcia/

He is such the opposite of being a wife beater that his wife sought an order of protection against him for beating her!

nor gang member

He only hangs out with gang members, dresses like a gang member, and is involved with what was believed to be human trafficking.

Definitely not a gang member!

[Alpheus W Drinkwater]

He may be a saint, or he may be Hitler, but there was a court order stating that he not be deported to El Salvador. The Trump administration thus illegally deported him to El Salvador. End of story.

[tylertusta]

Not quite the end of the story, since unreasonable people here have stated a preference to start a revolt/revolution/insurrection over what even the Trump administration admits was a mistake.

Where were their first principles when Lucas Denny was locked up and forgotten in the DC jails?

[David Nieporent]

Not quite the end of the story, since unreasonable people here have stated a preference to start a revolt/revolution/insurrection over what even the Trump administration admits was a mistake.

Well… not exactly. They admitted there was an "administrative error," but they also fired the DOJ staff attorney who admitted that for failing to zealously represent them.

And of course the "mistake" — assuming it was a mistake rather than deliberate — is not the issue that has gotten anyone upset. It's the administration's refusal in the face of multiple court orders from every level of the judiciary to make even minimal effort to rectify the mistake. It would take one, 30-second call from them to bring Garcia back, and they are defying orders in refusing to do so. They could even take the position, "We don't think the courts can make us do this, but since we screwed up we're voluntarily bringing him back as a show of good faith." But they're not. Indeed, Stephen Miller instead claimed that SCOTUS ruled 9-0 in Trump's favor!

[tylertusta]

Well… not exactly. They admitted there was an "administrative error," but they also fired the DOJ staff attorney who admitted that for failing to zealously represent them.

The failure to "zealously represent them" in this situation was badmouthing his client to the judge in open court, which would get any attorney in trouble.

It's the administration's refusal in the face of multiple court orders from every level of the judiciary to make even minimal effort to rectify the mistake.

'Minimal effort' as you and the courts state may not actually be minimal. What you're saying is that the executive was ordered to conduct diplomacy, but you're wrong in that every level of the judiciary said that. Only two of them have, and both did so in an evasive way in an attempt to avoid being reversed on appeal.

Let's see how an order to conduct diplomacy will play out at SCOTUS. Can you guess how SCOTUS will react to it?

[David Nieporent]

'Minimal effort' as you and the courts state may not actually be minimal.

Non-responsive. I said that they didn't do even minimal things. They literally did nothing.

What you're saying is that the executive was ordered to conduct diplomacy,

That is not in fact what I'm saying. I'm saying that they were ordered to do something, and literally did nothing.

Judge Xinis's April 10 order required the government to tell her (a) what they had done so far; and (b) what else they would do, and when. They simply refused to answer, from which the only reasonable inference is that they didn't do anything.

Also, trying to draw a wedge between SCOTUS and the lower courts is wrong in more ways than one. SCOTUS expressly ordered the administration to facilitate his release from prison. Not merely to make it possible for him to enter the country if he's released.

[David Nieporent]

Who was President in November of 2022? I think his name rhymes with "Schmoe Schmiden."

After having been proven to be a deportable illegal immigrant, he was released from custody in 2019. Who was president in 2019?

She alleged

What was that word?

He only hangs out with gang members,

There is no evidence that he hangs out with gang members. He was detained while in the same Home Depot parking lot as two other people who were supposedly gang members, in the middle of the day. There was no allegation in the hearsay incident report from the dirty cop that Garcia was with them. It doesn't state that he was talking to them, interacting with them, or even standing next to them.

dresses like a gang member,

He had a Bulls cap on. Which is dressing like a basketball fan.

and is involved with what was believed to be human trafficking.

Love the passive voice! Who "believes" that? What evidence was there for that? If someone reputable actually "believed" that, why wasn't he arrested? A literal fake news outlet quoted an anonymous source.

[tylertusta]

After having been proven to be a deportable illegal immigrant, he was released from custody in 2019. Who was president in 2019?

I wasn't talking about 2019. Mr Bumble and I were talking about 2022.

Who was President in 2022 when the traffic stop happened?

What was that word?

The word you are looking for is "wife beater."

There is no evidence that he hangs out with gang members ... hearsay incident report

"No evidence" my ass. Police reports are evidence and can be admissible. The police detectives are witnesses, as is the CI.

He had a Bulls cap on. Which is dressing like a basketball fan.

During the interview officers observed he was wearing a Chicago Bulls hat and hoodie with rolls of money covering the eyes, ears, and mouth of the presidents on the separate denominations. ... the meaning of the clothing is to represent "ver, oir, y callar" or "see no evil, hear no evil, and say no evil."

I eagerly await your next whitewashing attempt.

Love the passive voice!

You're welcome.

Who "believes" that? What evidence was there for that? If someone reputable actually "believed" that, why wasn't he arrested?

Perhaps the state police lacked the jurisdiction to make an arrest for a federal crime.

A literal fake news outlet quoted an anonymous source.

You either don't know what the word "literal" means, or what the words "fake news" means.

Live by the pedantry, die by the pedantry.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Don't forget had a protection order to not deport to El Salvador for fear of reprisal from a RIVAL GANG.

Who has "RIVAL GANG"s? Gangs do.

[David Nieporent]

As always, the troll lies. "Rival gang" is just something he made up.

[shawn_dude]

Biden deported nearly as many people in one year as Trump did his entire first term. If "open borders" were a policy of Biden's, his deportation total would be near zero. https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/biden-deportation-record

You lose credibility when you say stuff like "open borders." Only libertarians advocate for that; both Dems and GOP favor controls at the border.

[Stephen Lathrop]

Man found driving van full of people. After 2-hour stop, warned but not cited. Three sources for what? Innuendo? Also, "Noem alleged." Great work, Kazinski.

I suggest introduction of that report during a trial for contempt ought to be treated as an aggravation of the offense.

[Mr. Bumble]

Bullshit comment but at least it's a short one.

[Bwaaah]

The man, Albrego Garcia, was wearing a hoodie with images of three presidents on it: one with its eyes covered, one with its ears covered, and one with its mouth covered. Such depictions commonly represent the message of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil," and are known (by police and others) to be common El Salvadoran gang symbols. One of the other people in the car was a known MS-13 gang member with an extensive criminal history including multiple assault and burglary and other offenses.

See source police report here.

Did you not read those details, or did you purposely leave them out, or do you consider them to be irrelevant, or what?

[Stephen Lathrop]

I consider them potentially relevant, during a due process proceeding. Totally irrelevant until then.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Why weren't his immigration hearings in 2019 his due process proceedings?

[David Nieporent]

Did you not read those details

I did not read any "detail" in your link that there were "other people in the car," since there was in fact no car. (Well, I mean, it was a parking lot in the middle of the day, so there were probably many cars. But he was not in one, and neither were any of the other people who were detained.)

and are known (by police and others) to be common El Salvadoran gang symbols.

Completely made up, of course, but the standard m.o. for law enforcement "gang experts." (Just like drug courier profiles.) Take any behavior or apparel relating to the person that the cop wants to detain, claim without any evidence that it is gang related, and don't even present any evidence about the Type I error rate.

[Absaroka]

I'll give that police report a 'maybe'.

It's not unheard of for informants to be unreliable, even when the police characterize them as reliable. Sometimes they don't even exist, e.g. the Gerald Goines mess for a prominent example.

That report isn't completely unbelievable; letting the one guy go indicates some judgement was used.

I think the bipolar debate about him - he is definitely an angel or definitely a hardened criminal - misses the point, which is that we want to be more careful that we aren't making mistakes, and when we might have made a mistake, we need to rectify it.

[Bwaaah]

I agree with you...it's a 'maybe.' I am trying to interpret "facts" in this case in a light most favorable to the Trump Administration. I do so because I am very skeptical of the Administration's actions in this case (and others), and doubt its assertions.

[David Nieporent]

I think the bipolar debate about him - he is definitely an angel or definitely a hardened criminal - misses the point,

It misses the point for a more fundamental reason, which is that it's legally irrelevant. He could be Ted Bundy and they still broke the law.

[Commenter_XY]

Kaz, the relevant fact here is that, Garcia, the illegal alien gangbanger, will never leave his homeland again to victimize Americans.

I want to encourage every Team D Senator to go kneel and genuflect at the Altar of Abrego. The fools.

[myself]

Even you know that's wrong.

In the very worst case, Trump will leave office in 4 years, and his likely Democratic successor will facilitate the release of Garcia, and all the other detainees sent there without due process.

[JasonT20]

Kaz, the relevant fact here is that, Garcia, the illegal alien gangbanger...

You don't seem to know what the word "fact" means, since you refer to him as "illegal" and "gangbanger" as if you know those to be true "facts".

[Commenter_XY]

You know, you're right. I forgot to add 'wife beating' to the description.

...the relevant fact here is that, Garcia, the serial wife beating illegal alien gangbanger will never return to victimize Americans again.

[jb]

You guys know that the federal government maintains the terrorist watch list, right? So if he was on it, Noem could just look in her own database and see. No need to try to indirectly figure it out via old records of a traffic stop.

Also, since we're apparently blaming Christopher Wray for being asleep at the wheel for this big terrorist threat, he was appointed by.... Donald Trump.

[Michael P]

The current watch list doesn't necessarily say whether he was on it in 2022. The DOJ could have been acting on direction from the autopen to release him and/or delete him from the watch list.

[Sarcastr0]

Do you consider that a likely scenario?

[Michael P]

Evaluating likelihood would require more information from the Biden administration's hidden files, but it is entirely plausible. See, for example, https://judiciary.house.gov/media/press-releases/report-biden-harris-administration-has-released-united-states-least-99 . The autopen was also famously quick to remove terrorists from lists, most prominently the Houthi rebels who continued their terrorist attacks for the rest of Biden's (p)residency.

[Sarcastr0]

Kinda desperate, I guess?

[Michael P]

Yes, we could see that you are.

[Sarcastr0]

"Overall, seems like a lot of magical thinking on your part"

[jb]

Yeah, I'm sure (a) the watch list doesn't have any change history that would allow you to figure this out, and (b) the Biden administration went out of their way to remove this particular guy from it, knowing that a few years later Trump would accidently deport him, so that the future DHS wouldn't be able to prove he was a terrorist to retroactively justify their mistake.

That makes way more sense than he wasn't actually on the list!

[Michael P]

Looking at a change history is different from looking at the watch list itself, of course.

Why do you suppose the Biden administration had a crystal ball? Their many other short-sighted decisions suggest that they were happy to shoot America in the foot for little or bad reason, rather than because of foresight.

[jb]

Ah, well maybe Noem and team were too dumb to think of looking at the change history while they were trying to accuse the guy of being a terrorist, then.

Overall, seems like a lot of magical thinking on your part. Seems like a lot of work to justify what the administration already repeatedly admitted was a mistake.

[Michael P]

I'm not the one scrounging for excuses to pretend that today's terrorist watch list reflects what it said during past encounters with a particular MS-13 gang member.

[jb]

LOL. No one is pretending any such thing; as usual, you can't do better than fight with a strawman.

But it is quite obvious that if he'd ever been on the terrorist watch list, or if there was better evidence that he was an MS-13 member, that Noem would have released that information as well. The government has possession of all of the relevant records and so far all they've managed to demonstrate is that (a) he entered the country illegally, and (b) he drove a van full of people with an expired license.

But I guess since Trump is trying to call him a terrorist, you've got to ignore all logic and common sense to try to convince yourself that he must be.

[David Nieporent]

and (b) he drove a van full of people with an expired license.

That has not even been "demonstrated." A literal fake news outlet quoted some anonymous people as making this claim.

[Mr. Bumble]

You mean the NYT reported in it?

[Joe_dallas]

Tennessee Star - A fake news outlet? since when?

https://tennesseestar.com/justice/bidens-fbi-ordered-tn-highway-patrol-to-release-maryland-man-recently-deported-to-el-salvador-after-he-was-detained-in-2022-traffic-stop-on-suspicion-of-human-trafficking/tpappert/2025/04/16/

[Stephen Lathrop]

Joe_dallas may be part right, part wrong. There seems to be little question that the Tennessee Star is an existing self-purported website, with a multi-year history. Whether it fakes news is worth considering.

For instance, the link provided shows two pictures of Garcia, one with what looks like a courtroom background, another with him posed in front of a lineup height chart. His facial expression, clothing, and pose seem identical in both pictures. The pictures have been differently cropped, however. A skeptic ought to question whether either background ever had Garcia in front of it. His likeness may have been Photoshopped into one or both pictures. The lighting on Garcia's face appears identical in both pictures, but the lighting in the backgrounds differs.

[Joe_dallas]

SL -
NYT
USA today
Tennessee star

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/04/18/abrego-garcia-deported-tennessee-traffic-stop/83156188007/

[Kazinski]

I don't think Garcia was on the watchlist, or they'd be making a big deal about it now

If there were someebody in the van on the watchlist it would explain the 2 hour stop and the call to the FBI.

What it does seem to do is nail down wn is the gang connection. Guys hanging out in Home Depot parking lot don't get gigs to drive to Texas and drive back a van full of people to Maryland.

[jb]

All it does is nail down that he was driving on an expired license.

Who knows why there were a lot of people in the van? I've driven in a van full of people across state lines several times. Once the driver was even pulled over. Fortunately, in that case it was just a family trip so hopefully didn't raise too much suspicion, but there's probably a log of it in the police records somewhere!

[Sarcastr0]

It doesn't nail down anything but you're back on your 'turn off my critical thinking if I want to believe' shit you had going on with the Comer Biden stuff.

But then, you want to end all federal funding for research and shrink the government by 90% so judgement isn't your strong suit.
https://reason.com/volokh/2025/04/16/wednesday-open-thread-12/?comments=true#comment-11007351

Me: "Burn it all down, eh?"
You: "...90% of the federal government, and its entire grant apparatus."

[Kazinski]

Are you trying to convince me 90% isn't enough?

USAID, Department of Education, a few billion in University grants has just whetted my appetite.

[Sarcastr0]

I'm letting everyone know you're not just outcome oriented, not just awful at critical thinking, but also really really stupid.

[Kazinski]

And I am completely ready to FAFO.

I've said before and I will say it again, 22% of GNP is too large for the Federal Government, it needs to be cut to 18%. And that is going to require both painful cuts and an aggressive deregulation strategy to increase growth.

[Moderation4ever]

The fact is the administration has already admitted that Kilmar Abrego Garcia mistakenly deported. That are trying makeup an excuse rather than correcting the mistake is pathetic, but par for this administration.

[Martinned2]

I've seen people argue that, if Garcia's lawyers had quietly alerted the Administration to the mistake, they may well have brought him back. But by taking the issue to court, they ended up with Trump digging his heels in, because he never, ever, admits that he was ever wrong about anything.

[Drewski]

Yes, victim-blaming often relies on counterfactuals.

[HazelMeade]

Trump is the real victim here!

[David Nieporent]

I've seen people argue that, if Garcia's lawyers had quietly alerted the Administration to the mistake, they may well have brought him back.

I've seen people arguing that Trump cares about the country; people argue all kinds of crazy things.

[shawn_dude]

This is one of those "look what you made me do!" gaslighting examples that no one should take seriously.

[SRG2]

Well, the docs that Bondi released say that Garcia has no criminal history, and the allegations are definitely the kind of thing that should be tested in court before deportation.

But I see the continued immoral reasoning from the cultists - Garcia is a criminal/terrorist/gangbanger, etc so he doesn't get a day in court to test those allegations. They might just as well abolish trials in many cases - "the accused is guilty of these offences so doesn't deserve a trial". Basically, only the innocent should get hearings, and it's up to the regime to determine who's innocent.

[myself]

Here's the important thing to realize.

The actual dangerous immigrants like active MS-13 gang members? They're not applying for asylum, filing taxes with the IRS, or showing up to appointments with immigration officers.

They're doing everything they can to stay hidden.

Trump's big deportation stunt wasn't aimed at the worst of the worst. It was aimed at the ones who they could pick up on short notice. That's why, among with some actual gang members, you've got tattoo artists and other folks who are likely innocent. They specifically went after a pool of people with some documented suspicion, but nothing sufficient to convict them of a crime.

[David Nieporent]

That's correct, but I'd focus a little differently: it isn't just about convenience. Trump and the MAGA media ecosystem sold voters hysteria about illegal immigrants threatening the country, but the political demand for dangerous illegal immigrants far exceeds the actual supply, so they have no choice but to round up college students who said mean things or day laborers wearing Bulls caps or gay hairdressers. MAGA is braying for six and seven figure deportation stats, and there just aren't very many gang members.

[myself]

And to the extent there are gang members, they were already staying hidden for a reason!!

I think there really was a narrative that Biden was knowingly letting a bunch of MS-13 illegal immigrant gang bangers hang around in the country. So Trump is effectively acting as if that narrative was true.

[Sarcastr0]

The narrative Trump's chasing is less structured than all that.

People not like you are bad and have been protected for too long. Now the law will protect only those like you, and persecute those fuckers.

Applies to people of the brown, federal, university, lawyer, and liberal persuasions.
And if you want more, Miller has more ready I'm sure.

[HazelMeade]

If you want to try Abrego Garcia for being a gang member and human trafficking, there's a way to do that: charge him with a crime and have a trial.

[Bob from Ohio]

We just want him out of the US. His country's president is happy we sent him back.

[HazelMeade]

What you want is immaterial. The constitution says he is entitled to due process.

[Longtobefree]

Poor Hazel.
We don't want to try him for gang membership or trafficking.
We tried him for illegal entry, with full due process including an appeal. He was found subject to deportation.
Do try to factor this into your thinking.

[HazelMeade]

Then deport him to freedom in El Salvador. He's only in CECOT because we shipped him there with a bunch of convicted criminals and told Bukele to put him there.

[bernard11]

"Encountering officer decided not to cite the subject for driving infractions but gave him a warning citation for driving with an expired driver's license,"

Speeding, unable to maintain his lane, expired driving license, and the trooper didn't issue a ticket? After two hours. Sure thing.

But now that is 3 sources, a Homeland Security log, and two THP officers linking Garcia to human trafficking as Noem alleged.

No. It's one source - the trooper who carried out the original stop, and had some suspicions. Pretty weak.

IOW, this story is BS from start to finish. Reported in Just the News seals it.

Why do you spread this crap?

[Kazinski]

Well lets note what we do know as facts:

DHS Secretary Norm made the original allegations.
Just the News did its reporting on a record from the DHS log.
Tennessee Star had two unnamed sources, but both were Highway Patrol officers,
The Tennessee Highway Patrol Official Spokesman has confirmed the stop of Garcia did occur, the FBI was contacted, there were 7 passengers in the van.

That's a little too much from official channels to claim the entire story is BS, even though admittedly not everything has been nailed down yet.

But I am sure the next step is the FBI is checking its own records, so don't get too far out in front of your skis.

And do you think in a two hour stop of seven people there is going to be just one officer there? I've had another officer showing up to backup a stop when I was pulled over for a burnt out license plate frame light with my 11 year old son in the car.

[Kazinski]

And now there is a follow-up story with on the record official confirmation from the Tennessee Highway patrol:

The Tennessee Highway Patrol contacted The Tennessee Star on Thursday night to confirm its earlier reporting that Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the citizen of El Salvador who was deported last month by the Trump administration, was stopped by THP in 2022 but ordered to be released by the FBI.

"A THP spokesman told The Star, “The Tennessee Highway Patrol can confirm a 2022 traffic stop of Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia, who was stopped for speeding on I-40.”

The spokesman then stated to The Star, “Per standard protocol, the THP contacted federal law enforcement authorities with the Biden-era FBI—the agency of jurisdiction—who made the decision not to detain him.”

Notably, THP did not state whether Abrego Garcia was suspected by THP officers of being engaged in human trafficking, as sources told The Star on Wednesday. Human trafficking is a federal offense under the Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000.

It also remains unclear why the FBI would tell THP to release Abrego Garcia, who was transporting seven passengers in a vehicle he did not own, was operating without a valid license, and was reportedly answering questions with additional questions in a bid to avoid responding to THP questions.

The FBI has yet to respond to a comment request from The Star, which sought to confirm the federal agency’s role in securing Abrego Garcia’s release in Tennessee."

[shawn_dude]

"....and was reportedly answering questions with additional questions in a bid to avoid responding to THP questions."

So much for the right to remain silent. He's guilty because he didn't answer questions!

[Kazinski]

Driving without a license is an arrestable misdemeanor in Tennessee, its is solely up to Garcia whether to answer questions, it was up to the officers to decide whether or not to arrest him.

My guess is if the FBI didn't request that he be released he would have been arrested because they weren't satisfied with his level of cooperation.

Which would be totally up to their discretion.

[David Nieporent]

Note that the FBI has no authority whatsoever to order the police to release him. The most the FBI could do is say, "We don't have any interest in him; do what you want."

But also, why would DHS have FBI records?

[Kazinski]

I said "request", you said "order", if you want to pedantic at least use my actual words, but I guess that wouldn't work.

Of course the FBI had no authority to order his release, but certainly could request it, or merely say we aren't going to follow up so do what you want.

The point was Garcia's willingness or unwillingness to answer questions certainly could be a factor in letting him walk or spending a few days in Tennessee, his right to be silent not withstanding.

I would be very surprised if DHS and FBI and ATF don't extensively share information, along with just about every other 3 letter agency.

In fact we already know they do.

Don't be intentionally obtuse.

[Martinned2]

Aix-Marseille University in France was one of the first European universities that launched a high-profile attempt to recruit US-based academics who no longer felt safe. I have no idea whether 300 applications should be considered a success.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2025/apr/17/nearly-300-applications-to-french-university-offer-to-take-in-us-academics

[Mr. Bumble]

France needs to import snowflakes?

[Martinned2]

No, France has plenty of those: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce8gzvv47kjo

But if the US doesn't want to do top-notch academic research anymore, it makes sense that other countries would seek to do it instead.

[Frank Drackman]

Make sure they know not to draw any images of Moe-hammed, they’ll not only lose their Tenure but their heads too

[Dr. Ed 2]

Fine, they can do it with their money.

[Frank Drackman]

Let me know when any actually leave, I hear the University of Terror-Anne has openings

[Don Nico]

Academic positions are hard to come by when budgets are so restricted and freezes and partial freezes are common. Depending on the number of vacancies and their long term nature, 300 is a good but not an extraordinary number.
I'd note that some premier German institutions have had freezes for entry level positions for the past two years. The budget issues are not unique to the US.

[Dr. Ed 2]

Don -- the European demographics are worse than ours -- no children means none to teach...

[Riva]

Bon Voyage.

[Bob from Ohio]

Yeah, we'll supposed to care that some leftists are leaving.

[shawn_dude]

You *should* care. The more educated a person is, the more likely they are to vote Liberal. Universities do much of the core research that leads to a lot of great technology. The US had been leading here for decades--to our benefit. If we push that talent out of the country and poison our international relationships, the economic benefits of that research will accrue elsewhere.

[shawn_dude]

There are similar reports of faculty leaving for Canada and other countries. 300 for one university is a lot.

And a reminder to folks that not all faculty teach. It depends on the university and the position. You'll also see reluctance in tenured or nearly-tenured faculty to leave that behind. (Though tenured layoffs are becoming a thing these days.)

[Martinned2]

The ICC's Pre-Trial Chamber I has invited Hungary to explain why it hasn't arrested Netanyahu. https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/CourtRecords/0902ebd180b45de3.pdf

Of course, as the PTC says, the only penalty available to it is to refer Hungary to the Assembly of States Parties. The Rome Statute does not authorise either the Court or the ASP to take any sort of punitive measures against a state that fails to arrest someone.

[Frank Drackman]

Is that like Double Secret Probation? Does it go on Hungary’s permanent record?

[Krayt]

"Arrest him, or I shall taunt you a second time!"

This is why most large nations do not participate in such things, as they are turned into vehicles to attack over policies rather than their nominal purpose.

[Dr. Ed 2]

"Between 15 May and 9 July 1944, over 434,000 Jews were deported on 147 trains, most of them to Auschwitz, where about 80 percent were gassed on arrival."

I think mailing a picture of Auschwitz would suffice.

[Martinned2]

I think Hungary already knows about the Holocaust, after what Eichmann did there. What's your point?

[Bob from Ohio]

"explain why it hasn't arrested Netanyahu"

They aren't a party any longer. Plus, he's left already.

I don't know, maybe because the warrant is just old fashioned Euro Jew hating.

[Martinned2]

Withdrawal takes effect one year after it is notified (art. 127 Rome Statute). Until then they continue to have an obligation to arrest whoever has an arrest warrant issued against them.

[Bob from Ohio]

I'm sure they will get right on that!

[tylertusta]

Maybe the ICC should arrest the nation of Hungary for not following the terms of a treaty that they are leaving?

[Martinned2]

If only I had said something about sanctions options in my original comment!

[tylertusta]

If only you did.

[Frank Drackman]

Just noticed Senator Van Holland (D, El Salvador) was born in Pock-E-Ston (ht B Osama) with “Birthright Citizenship” isn’t he a Paki?

[not guilty]

Senator Van Hollen was born in Pakistan to American parents on January 10, 1959. The applicable statute, 28 U.S.C. § 2679(c), recognizes the U.S. citizenship of:

(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person

Per Wikipedia, Senator Van Hollen's father was a Foreign Service officer who served as deputy assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern Affairs (1969–1972) and U.S. ambassador to Sri Lanka and the Maldives (1972–1976); his mother worked in the Central Intelligence Agency and the State Department, where she served as chief of the intelligence bureau for South Asia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Van_Hollen

[Frank Drackman]

Great, Pock-E-Ston (HT B. Osama) doesn't have "Birthright" Citizenship, neither should the US.

[not guilty]

Correction: I cited the wrong federal statute by mistake. The correct citation is 8 U.S.C. § 1401(c).

I had the correct language, but the wrong statute number. Mea culpa!

[A Japanese Student]

Luigi Mangione was federally indicted. The evidence against him is strong - or is it? For state prosecution, yes; however I believe he should be acquitted, perhaps by the judge, in the federal prosecution.

The reason is simple: murder has never been federally prosecuted absent strong federal nexus. That's how Title 18 is structured. For almost all other violent crimes - kidnapping, arson, robbery, etc - the use of instrumentalities of commerce (say, firearms), or effects to commerce, is sufficient to convict the defendant. See §1201(a)(1), §844(i), §1951(a).

On the other hand, there is no murder-in-commerce statute as far as I am aware. Each federal murder statute requires a federal nexus beyond mere use of instrumentalities of commerce.

Some of the federal nexus independently give rise to federal jurisdiction; cf. §242 (police violence, 14A), §249(a) (racially motivated violence, 13A), §956 (foreign murder), §1111 (murder within SMTJ), §1114 (murdering federal officials), §1118 (murder by federal prisoners serving life sentence), §1365 (tampering with consumer products resulting in death), §1751 (Presidential assassination). Some statutes require use of instrumentalities to commit specific crimes, and provides for harsher penalties when death results. cf. §249(b) (hate crime using instrumentalities of commerce), §1201 (kidnapping using instrumentalities of commerce), §1958 (interstate murder-for-hire), §1959 (murder as part of commerce-affecting criminal enterprise), §2251 (sexual exploitation of children to produce CSAM using computers). And some derive federal jurisdiction from another Federal offenses or investigations. cf. §924(c) (using firearms in furtherance of other Federal crimes), §1512(a)(1) (killing witnesses in a federal investigation).

Mangione was indicted for stalking and 924(c). 924(c) does not independently support federal jurisdiction. To convict Mangione, the predicate - interstate stalking - must be proven. From the Government's theory however, any premeditated murder counts as stalking - which seems not only wrong, but also expands the federal criminal jurisdiction beyond what was traditionally understood.

One of the elements of offense in the federal stalking statute is that the defendant "engage in conduct that places that person in reasonable fear of the death". In fact, but for this requirement, any commerce-affecting murder appears to be federally prosecutable. I don't think Brian Thompson was ever placed in reasonable fear of death before the moment a shot was fired. (But then, I'm not an expert; I might be wrong.)

From a quick search, I could not find a CA2 opinion for 2261A prosecution not involving the defendant's ex or families. Other circuits' precedents (except one) all involve interstate threats, not a murder plot. As to the exception, United States v. Fullmer, 584 F.3d 132 (CA3 2009), the victims were fully aware that they were targeted. Either I'm blind, or the prosecutors at SDNY are.

[Michael P]

It seems that a prosecution for domestic terrorism would be appropriate here.

[Don Nico]

But how was it terrorism? It is murder 1 in NY. That should be sufficient to put him away for good.

[Michael P]

"(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that— (A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended— (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States"

Murder in NYC trivially satisfies (A) and (C). The choice of target, the accused's manifesto-cum-written confession and popular reactions all support (B)(i) and (B)(ii).

[not guilty]

Uh, no. Part (B) is not satisfied. Mr. Mangione's beef was not with any government; it was with the insurance industry.

And what substantive offense prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 2331 et seq. do you claim that Mr. Mangione committed, Michael P?

[not guilty]

Still waiting, Michael P. What substantive offense prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 2331 et seq. do you claim that Mr. Mangione committed?

If you don't know, man up and admit it.

[A Japanese Student]

The thing is: there is no federal felony known as "domestic terrorism". Though, yes, I did forget to mention some other criminal statutes.

If the report is correct, Mangione used a 9mm pistol. One of the statutes punishing acts of terrorism requires that the barrel have a bore of more than half an inch, or 12.7mm. 18 USC §2332a(a), (c)(2)(A), §921(a)(4)(B).

(Also, to be sure, Mangione could face NFA charges if the silencer was possessed in violation of that act. That, however, is not a crime of violence that triggers §924(c) liability.)

[SRG2]

The US has corrupted the meaning of terrorism. Killing people unrelated to the cause in order to pressure a desired course of action is terrorism. Killing people who are the ones responsible for the actions you're opposed to is murder, sure, but it's not terrorism.

[Krayt]

Terrorism is attacking the public at large, for the temerity of supporting, even passively, the powers that be.

This seems like a targeted assassination to scare insurance company execs, a definite goal, but not some general attack on the population. It's a bad thing, but decidedly not terrorism.

It does not surprise me pols want to twist and Stretch Armstrong it around to support a cool cachet crime.

[Bob from Ohio]

I don't think scaring all 335 million Americans is the only way that a murder can be terrorism.

It was designed to accomplish a political goal.

[SRG2]

I don't think scaring all 335 million Americans is the only way that a murder can be terrorism.

Me: I don't like Brussels sprouts
Bob: Why do you hate all vegetables?

[Bob from Ohio]

Not sure what your point is.

He said terrorism is only a "general attack on the population", but that's too broad. A limited population target can still be terrorism.

[Dr. Ed 2]

Didn't he cross a state line to commit the crime, and then again fleeing?

[A Japanese Student]

This is a statutory interpretation argument; had Congress actually passed a law penalizing all murders affecting interstate commerce, then it would've definitely been used against him. As far as I am aware, though, it hasn't yet.

[not guilty]

The indictment is here: https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/mangione-healthcare-shooter-federal-indictment.pdf

I am skeptical of the applicability of 18 U.S.C. § 2261A(1)(A), stalking involving interstate travel, as a triggering offense upon which the other charges are based. That subsection applies to:

Whoever—
(1) travels in interstate or foreign commerce or is present within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or enters or leaves Indian country, with the intent to kill, injure, harass, intimidate, or place under surveillance with intent to kill, injure, harass, or intimidate another person, and in the course of, or as a result of, such travel or presence engages in conduct that—

(A) places that person in reasonable fear of the death of, or serious bodily injury

Similarly, subsection 2261A(2)(A) applies to whoever:

(2)with the intent to kill, injure, harass, intimidate, or place under surveillance with intent to kill, injure, harass, or intimidate another person, uses the mail, any interactive computer service or electronic communication service or electronic communication system of interstate commerce, or any other facility of interstate or foreign commerce to engage in a course of conduct that—

(A) places that person in reasonable fear of the death of or serious bodily injury to a person, a pet, a service animal, an emotional support animal, or a horse described in clause (i), (ii), (iii), or (iv) of paragraph (1)(A)
The interstate travel element should be easy to prove here. The decedent, however, was shot in the back. He is unavailable as a witness to testify that he was placed fear of death or serious bodily injury. How will the government prove the decedent's state of mind beyond a reasonable doubt?

I recall a hypothetical from first year torts class as to whether there can be a battery without an accompanying assault. An attack from behind, which the victim did not anticipate, was an example of how that in fact there can be.

The state prosecution of Mr. Mangione seems to be a slam dunk. The federal prosecution may be overreaching.

[Riva]

Wow. You salivated over abusive meritless lawfare that tried to jail President Trump for the rest of his natural life but now argue for the little murdering domestic terrorist. And democrats head to el salvador to try to bring an illegal gangbanger back to the US.

I wholeheartedly encourage you and your insane corrupt party to continue down this path. Democrats are amusing in a minority, not so much when in power.

[not guilty]

What Luigi Mangione is accused of doing is horrible. I just have my doubts about whether the federal offenses he is charged with can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Statutes matter.

And Riva, what domestic terrorist act prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 2331 et seq. do you claim that Mr. Mangione committed? You are long on insults but way short on legal knowledge.

[Riva]

Given your consistent pattern of citing irrelevant case law and your inability to recognize dicta, I would extend the same insult to you. He is under federal indictment and state charges of murder and terrorism. You claimed that the federal charges are somehow inappropriate. I pointed out that you’re full of it. How are the federal charges legally without merit? Have you actually read the federal indictment?

[not guilty]

Yes, I have read the federal indictment, which I linked to upthread. The state indictment is here: https://manhattanda.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Mangione-Indictment-FINAL-as-filed.pdf

Counts three through five and seven of the state indictment look to be a slam dunk for the prosecution. I am not familiar enough with the facts to know whether the accused's weapon met the definition of "assault weapon" as alleged in Count six.

Counts one and two allege that the killing was "intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policies of a unit of government by intimidation or coercion, and affect the conduct of a unit of government by murder, assassination or kidnapping." Since these elements elevating the offense to first degree murder are listed in the conjunctive, I have doubts that the prosecution will be able to prove the culpable mental state -- Mr. Mangione's beef was with the insurance industry, not with a unit of government.

The federal indictment does not allege any act of terrorism. For the reasons I have indentified upthread, I think the prosecution may have trouble proving the decedent's state of mind immediately prior to the killing -- an essential element of 18 U.S.C. § 2261A(1)(A) and 2261A(2)(A). The other counts of the federal indictment depend on proof of these allegations as well.

Your commentary remarkably omits any parsing of the applicable state and federal statutes.

[Riva]

Trouble proving his state of mind? That's patently absurd. There's even frigging video. The evidence is overwhelming as to the state of mind of the little domestic terrorist. Which brings me back to my initial point. I repeat: You salivated over abusive meritless lawfare that tried to jail President Trump for the rest of his natural life but now argue for the little murdering domestic terrorist. Truly repulsive and disgraceful. Hey, maybe that could be the new Democrat slogan?

[not guilty]

Riva, what unit of government do you claim that Mr. Mangione intended to intimidate or coerce and affect the conduct thereof by killing Brian Thompson? Those facts are essential to elevate the offense from second to first degree murder.

Elements of a criminal offense are like ingredients in a recipe. To illustrate by means of a hypothetical, suppose a state legislature created the offenses of baking a cake -- a Class B misdemeanor -- and of baking a chocolate cake -- a Class A misdemeanor.

Suppose a defendant is charged in one count of an indictment with baking a chocolate cake, and in another count of the indictment with baking a cake. Suppose the proof at trial showed incontrovertibly that the defendant used flour, sugar, eggs, butter, baking powder and other ingredients, but used no chocolate or cocoa, and baked it in the oven for the appropriate time. He could be convicted of baking a cake, but he could not be convicted of baking a chocolate cake.

[not guilty]

Still waiting, Riva. What unit of government do you claim that Mr. Mangione intended to intimidate or coerce and affect the conduct thereof by killing Brian Thompson?

[Dr. Ed 2]

As the first shot didn't kill him and he tried to get away, there is your mortal fear.

[Frank Drackman]

Open your eyes, Luigi violated the United Healthcare Suits Civil Rights by killing him

[A Japanese Student]

There was no conspiracy (§241), Mangione was not a state actor (§242), the attack was not racially motivated (§245(b)(2)) or intended to prevent him from voting, serving as juror, receiving Federal employment or grants (§245(b)(1)) or obtaining abortion (§248(a)(1)) or practicing religion (§248(a)(2)), and being a CEO is not a protected characteristic under §249.

[Frank Drackman]

Lot of Ass- sumptuous there Jap-Stud, like a certain Yellow Peril did in 1941, Mangione woke a Sleeping Giant, and he’s pissed. After a few more months of having his Anal Sphincter violated daily, Mangione will mysteriously hang himself

[Brett Bellmore]

He woke two sleeping giants, unfortunately, and while they're both pissed, one of them likes him, and sees him as someone to emulate.

[Commenter_XY]

A Step Too Far: Removing Harvard U tax exemption

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/407003

Terminate Fed Contracts: No problem
Eject foreign alien hamas sympathizers: No problem
Prosecute title 6 violations: No problem

I do have a problem with removing Harvard's tax exempt status. On this point, I disagree with the Administration. Why? I come back to: the power to tax is the power to destroy. In the same vein, I oppose any move to tax their endowment (or any other university endowment, for that matter).

Harvard needs to change behavior, no doubt about that. One alternative to changing tax status is to yank their accreditation until defined changes are made. I am somewhat surprised this option has not been explored.

[Frank Drackman]

Never understood why Churches/Universities don’t pay taxes to start with

[Moderation4ever]

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Krayt]

"Congress shall pass no law", taxes are laws, QED.

Currently church exemption is "understood" by the intelligentia as a nicety granted to them by their betters in government.

I'm not even sure if it's been to the SC, but there was a case that touched on it where the judge suggested that, imagine a church that didn't pay their property taxes. It is seized like any other property. This imnediately interfers with the free exercise thereof.

A normal law immediately interfers with the free exercise thereof.

I'm also a bit puzzled why people look glowingly on "laws of general applicability" somehow getting the honor of elbows to the ribs of religion, "it applies to all", they say, but then you look at them.

[jb]

Does the federal government directly accredit universities? I thought they just had a list of private entities who do the actual accreditation.

[Dr. Ed 2]

Harvard is mentioned in the MA Constitution, but other IHEs have to have state authority to issue degrees.

[Martinned2]

Harvard needs to change behavior, no doubt about that. One alternative to changing tax status is to yank their accreditation until defined changes are made. I am somewhat surprised this option has not been explored.

If only there was something in the US constitution that protected (private) universities from government interference with their academic freedom!

[Brett Bellmore]

Well, that's the other option: Go the Hillsdale route, and become genuinely private. Then they can discriminate to their heart's content. I mean, if that's the brand they want, embrace it!

Happily, the general public got tired of racial discrimination several decades ago, (To the point where even in California it loses at the ballot box.) and the political class is finally catching up, at least on the Republican side. I have faith Democrats will eventually give up their centuries long embrace of racial discrimination.

After exhausting every other conceivable option, of course, but eventually.

[Martinned2]

Maybe you want to go back and read the literally dozens of VC posts about academic freedom, because clearly you (and Commenter) don't understand how the first amendment works, or don't want to understand.

[Brett Bellmore]

What I understand is that academic freedom was of no avail for Hillsdale, so I don't see why it should avail for Harvard.

The bottom line here is that this isn't really about academic freedom. It's about Harvard's racism and antisemitism. Academic freedom is just their excuse.

[Sarcastr0]

Oh hey Brett comes out against freedom AGAIN. Libertarian my ass.

Did you see the letter the Administration sent to Harvard?

Don't pretend this admin is doing this for anything related to freedom.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Viewpoint freedom.

[Sarcastr0]

Sorry, Magnus, gonna be a while before I see another comment of yours.

You: "Read shit, take a shit, talk shit, reply to shit. I keep the big brain stuff for more important matters. Like buttering up your mom."

So why would I engage with someone who proudly proclaims they aren't in good faith?

Add in your too-much curiosity about my job, and you can wank into the abyss for a while.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

>"Read shit, take a shit, talk shit, reply to shit. I keep the big brain stuff for more important matters. Like buttering up your mom."

lol, that's pretty funny. I love that guy.

Hey everyone, Sarcastr0 is going to mute me! Give him his Good Boy Points!! Everyone, look how virtuous Sarcastr0 is!!! He's so pure, he doesn't dare even risk a single glance at "no no thoughts".

Hip hip Hooray! Sarcastr0 is Pure! Hip Hip Hooray!

>Add in your too-much curiosity about my job, and you can wank into the abyss for a while.

Your soon to be ex-job! *fingers-crossed* (Also, reported to DOGE for wasting time on my dollars)

[Bob from Ohio]

He's muted me too!

I may cry myself to sleep tonight.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

FYI, you're the problem I voted for Trump to fix.

HTH

[wreckinball]

Hillsdale's freedom of speech was wrong speech. Not allowed. It's OK to discriminate if you do it the right way though. Or at least was.

Well hopefully wrong now.

DEI is a blatant violation of the CRA so I don't understand why these places aren't getting the George Wallace treatment.

[David Nieporent]

DEI is a blatant violation of the CRA

I mean, that's not correct. "DEI" is an amorphous term that can refer to many many things, most of which are 100% legal. To the extent it refers to racial considerations in admissions, the Supreme Court had said as recently as 2003 that it was legal; it only held them to be a violation of the CRA in SFFA in June 2023.

And you are slandering Hillsdale; I don't even know what "speech" of Hillsdale's you might be talking about, and it wasn't accused of discriminating.

[Frank Drackman]

Are you afflicted or something? The First Amendment only applies to Universities that are members of a "Militia"

[Bwaaah]

Just to be clear, the First Amendment only applies to three fifths of the people in the Militia.

[Michael P]

Look at this guy who thinks discriminating against Jewish students, and prospective students, is part of "academic freedom". What a maroon.

[Martinned2]

It always warms my heart to see how much US fascists love the Jews. I'm sure the Jews are excited by this friendship too.

[Michael P]

Do they? I heard they were the ones shouting things like "Jews will not replace us".

Speaking of which, it's curious how little we have heard about Patriot Front now that the FBI's leadership has changed. Why did they fall out of the news? Did DOGE cancel the credit cards funding them?

[Martinned2]

I assume they're too busy helping DOGE break into NGOs' offices.

[Sarcastr0]

All the white nationalists got hired by DOGE, it seems.

[Don Nico]

I don't see a strong reason not to tax unrestricted endowments at a level as much as 20%.

[David Nieporent]

I think the government should need a strong reason to do so, not a strong reason not to do so. And spite is not a strong reason.

[bernard11]

The Trumpists don't like universities.

Someone there might criticize Trump, so Trumpists take an Orbanist approach. National ignorance is their goal.

[Krayt]

Spite is the reason most who want to tax churches do so, not some nebulous concern churches are getting away with something.

[Jmaie]

Does spite include, "I pay property taxes so everyone else should too?"

[Don Nico]

You got the sign wrong as usual. The universities with big unrestricted endowments act like hedge funds and they get the same protection and benefits from the State that for profit businesses and working stiffs get. They should pay their share.
As for the restricted funds, their use is spoken for and represents true philanthropy. For the time being, I give a pass on that one jus like we give other smaller non-profits a pass.

[John F. Carr]

What's your definition of an unrestricted endowment? A large majority of Harvard's endowment is restricted in some sense.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2025/4/17/harvard-endowment-explained/

[Don Nico]

Unrestricted means that the funds have no restriction on their use by the donors or restriction on their earnings. That is the definition used by the big R1's

[Commenter_XY]

As an alternative Don Nico, limit reimbursement of OH to 15%.

[Riva]

What is wrong with making Harvard comply with the same rules democrats have tried to stuff down the throats of their political opponents?

[Joe_dallas]

Racial discrimination - similar to Bob Jones University v Comm, albeit reverse discrimination. So yes they should lose their tax exempt status.

Separate issue is whether an organization as large as Harvard, yale, etc that operate as a for profit enterprises should be entitle to an exemption from taxation under 501(c)(3). Note the term "for profit" is a description of the business model which is separate and distinct from being a tax exempt entity under 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code.

[Bob from Ohio]

"power to tax is the power to destroy."

That's why I support it!

The legal predicate is that Harvard filed to protect its Jewish students in violation of civil rights law so has forfeited the exemption. Harvard can litigate it.

But in a broader sense, there is no reason to let a hedge fund [with a college attached] escape taxation.

[Commenter_XY]

BfO, it is a step too far, IMO. Changing institutional behavior doesn't have to be slow motion destruction of the institution. The goal is not to change what they teach, the goal is to change their behavior, particularly wrt Jewish students (and asians as well, wrt admissions).

Harvard must change institutional behavior, taxing endowments is not the way to do that. It won't stop there, churches, mosques, temples and synagogues would be next on the taxing block.

I don't want to hand the Fed Gov yet another hammer, not in that way.

[Bob from Ohio]

"churches, mosques, temples and synagogues"

Plenty of left agitation already about taxing them. Tens of millions of voters attend those institutions versus a few hundred thousand Harvard grads and some fan boys and girls. Political realities will protect them.

No church, mosque, temple or synagogue has a 50 billion endowment either.

[shawn_dude]

Bob, meet the Catholic Church.

[Stephen Lathrop]

Does the out-of-prison meeting between Abrego Garcia and Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen foreshadow a Trump retreat on Garcia's confinement?

I doubt that meeting could happen without a prior consult by Bukele with Trump. Why would Trump okay doing that? Maybe because Trump has decided the Garcia case is a loser, and he wants to retreat to a position more reasonable-looking, to defend against the obvious bigger humiliation—being ordered to bring back the whole lot of the deportees, and stop sending any more without due process.

[Frank Drackman]

It was outside of the prison? Man, I thought that CECOP had a really nice cappuccino bar for being such a horrible place. Pretty sure they’ll let every DemoKKKrat who is stupid enough have his photo taken with Kill-more

Frank

[Frank Drackman]

My Bad, it was just a regular Bar, and Kill-more was enjoying a Margarita with the Senator from Karachi, what a tough Prison! Nancy Pelosi is already on the way

[Bob from Ohio]

"what a tough Prison!

Dude is still fat. They sure feed well in that death camp he is in!

[bernard11]

You're scum.

[Sarcastr0]

He used to be scum. Proud of his weird morality where lying is a virtue.

I guess he liked the negative attention that got him, because now he's just a troll, seeking to freak out the normies.

I've muted him; he's stopped being a serious person; he's not interesting anymore, even as a horrorshow.

[bernard11]

The photo I saw showed no margarita, just a bottle of water and a cup of what was probably coffee. There was another unclear and unconvincing one that showed part of an extra glass with maybe some ice.

If that existed at all we have no way to know what was in it.

But hey, just lie your hearts out in defense of the Great Leader.

[Mr. Bumble]

Who picked up the tab for the trip?
Bi-partisan ethics complaint filed.
https://amgreatness.com/2025/04/18/government-watchdog-files-ethics-complaint-against-sen-van-hollen-over-trip-to-el-salvador-to-meet-with-alleged-gangbanger/

[David Nieporent]

In what language does that describe anything "bipartisan"?

[Mr. Bumble]

My bad. Misread the the opening line.

[bernard11]

So it turns out that the extra glasses were provided by Salvadoran officials, and neither Van Hollen, nor Aberigo Garcia rank from them.

Still going to stick by the smear? Yeah. You are.

[Kazinski]

First you said "The photo I saw showed no margarita, just a bottle of water and a cup of what was probably coffee."

But Van Hollen says in TheHiil:
“Let me just be very clear: Neither of us touched the drinks that were in front of us,” he said. “Nobody drank any margaritas or sugar water or whatever it is. But this is the lesson in the lengths that President [Nayib] Bukele will do to deceive people about what’s going on.”

Van Hollen said it’s clear the drinks went untouched, as none of the salted rims indicated either man drank out of the glasses."

So Van Hollen admits they were brought out to them , and placed on the table in front of them, and they declined them.

Ok, up to him, doesn't that certainly doesn't reflect on Bukele that they were declined.

[Commenter_XY]

Senator Van Hollen looks like a complete fool, sacrificing his morals on the Altar of Abrego. At least it is clear where his priorities lie, it is not with American citizens. And certainly not women. He spends time looking to bring back a wife beating, illegal alien gangbanger. Nice picture of St. Abrego's fist with the MS-13 gang tattoos. Way to go Senator. The term is 'own goal'.

In the meantime, his constituents are losing jobs by the thousands (yep, DC-based fed bureaucrats). And what is he doing to facilitate a private sector solution to re-employ these RIF'ed constituents? Constituents who vote, BTW. Not too much, from what I see. That's the real cost of illegal immigration. MD citizens lose out when their state representative in DC is in El Salvador.

[Kazinski]

This one is definitely Margaritas, salt on the rim, but I do question the maraschino cherries.

https://x.com/nataliegwinters/status/1913038653850542527?t=DqOzSYn6xAJ3mf6j9iwIMg&s=19

But probably the last Margarita Garcia will be having for a while.

https://x.com/nataliegwinters/status/1913038653850542527?t=DqOzSYn6xAJ3mf6j9iwIMg&s=19

[Magister]

A right winger Kazinski links to twice, versus the account of Senator Van Hollen who was actually there.

[hobie]

I'm surprised at the visit as well. There are no letters, papers, phone calls, visits or photos of any kind allowed. In theory, the man will never see or speak to his wife and children again

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

So there could be pictures taken of a dumbass Democrat glad handing with a guy who has MS-13 tattoo'd across his fingers.

[David Nieporent]

All that's missing are the "M," the "S," the "1," and the "3"!!!

[Kazinski]

I doubt it Bukele said he will remain in custody:

"After the meeting, which appeared to take place in a hotel, El Salvador's President Nayib Bukele said the detainee would remain in the country's custody."
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd6j7jjpgy6o

[myself]

I think it's more a signal that the President of El Salvador understands that he may be dealing with a Democratic US administration in 4 years. So there's no need to troll them for the sake of trolling.

[Martinned2]

Does anyone have any thoughts on yesterday's Google Adware judgment?

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.vaed.533508/gov.uscourts.vaed.533508.1410.0_7.pdf

I must confess I haven't read it yet. In my defence, shockingly Good Friday is not a bank holiday in the Netherlands, as it is in the UK.

[John F. Carr]

When I heard about it I thought about Alice's Restaurant:

I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna kill. I wanna see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, kill, kill, kill."

I think about Google the way a young Arlo Guthrie pretended to feel about the VC. That's the Viet Cong, not the Volokh Conspiracy, which did not exist in 1965.

[Dr. Ed 2]

The Florida State shooter is interesting. Hos did the cop (apparently a school resource officer, and whose gun(s) he used) become his mother? What about his real mother and father?

I am not a fan of social workers and suspect that they screwed this kid up.

That said, it was only a matter of time before something like this happened, i.e. a MAGA shooting back, this time literally. I only hope that the persons who died are the ones who deserved it.

https://wsvn.com/news/local/florida/what-we-know-about-florida-state-university-shooting-suspect/

[Frank Drackman]

I guess "Dr" Ed 2 missed Sex Ed, well let me enlighten you
The Man puts his Man-Part in the Woman's Female-part.....

Spent my first Semester of College at FSU (yes, I took Engrish, maybe that's the problem) emulating my Idle, Jim Morrison (the Drinking part, not the music) Fortunately dropped out just in time to get all "Incompletes" (like "D-Day" in Animal House), took a Semester Off, the Larry Bird plan, working for the City of Montgomery picking up Trash, before starting at Auburn, nothing like picking up Dog (redacted) for minimal wage to get your attention

Frank

[jb]

MAGA fully controls the government, but apparently also needs to go randomly shooting brown or trans people or something, according to Dr Ed.

[Sarcastr0]

The shitposting level has gone way up since the election.

Ed used to be the undisputed king, but now he's got plenty of competition from open authoritarians, folks who toss around slurs, Pinochet fans, etc.
He's doing the work to get noticed but he's got nowhere to go - he pegged the needle with wishing rape and murder on randos long ago so no one is shocked anymore.

It's just sad now.

[Dan Schiavetta]

Unfortunately the MAGA types are in power now. As Robert Caro says, "Power doesn't corrupt -- it reveals."

[ReaderY]

Could a federal court order the United States not to make any payments to El Salvador on its contract to house American deportees until El Salvador releases an inmate?

That would seem to be a possible concrete action a court might be able to take.

Perhaps the Garcia plaintiffs might want to add Scott Benntt as a defendant.

[Frank Drackman]

They can order Scarlett Johanssen to dance topless at Yankee Stadium, doesn't mean its going to happen (I'd like it to happen)
But since this is (supposedly) a "Legal" Blog, and Shysters are supposed to dabble in words, can you stop molesting the Engrish language for a minute?
Kil-more Garcia is a "Prisoner", he's being held in a "Prison", "Prisons" have "Prisoners"
He's not an "Inmate", "Inmates" are found in Asylums, like where the DemoKKKrats should be if they think having their photos taken with a Salvadoran Criminal drinking a Margarita is a politically astute move, OK, Van Holland wins his seat by 30%, that's Maryland, hows it gonna play in AZ? NV? PA, MI, WI, GA, NC? (how did it play? not well with others)
and guess what, all "Brown" people aren't the same, even Tony Montana didn't like Salvadorans

Frank

[not guilty]

Frank, prisons also have inmates.

Like Ron White is fond of saying, you can't fix stupid.

[Frank Drackman]

You know who calls Prisoners "Inmates"?
Stupid People,
AKA "Correctional Officers" who as Gordon Liddy used to say,
"Correctional Officers are the ones who wanted to be in the Military or Law Enforcement, but they couldn't even meet the minimal intelligence standards to enlist, they flunked out of the Police Academy, then they went to the Fire Academy and kept setting themselves on fire, so they take the job where you voluntarily go to Prison 2,000 hours a year, and call themselves "Correctional Officers" who don't "Correct" anyone, they stand around while the Prisoners run the Prison"

Frank

[HazelMeade]

Probably and they can also declare sending people to foreign prisons unconstitutional if the Executive can't prove they can remedy an administrative error by getting people mistakenly sent back.
It's basically the Trump administration that is arguing it's unconstitutional at this point. They're the ones saying it's impossible to give this guy due process.

[myself]

According to the VP of El Salvador, Trump is still paying El Salvador to imprison Garcia.

[Martinned2]

That was quite a statement from Lisa Murkowski this week.

"It's quite a statement. But we are in a time and a place where I certainly have not been here before," the 67-year-old lawmaker added. "And I'll tell you, I am oftentimes very anxious myself about using my voice, because retaliation is real. And that's not right."

Remember, that's how 1st century BC Rome worked too. Roving groups of bandits running around beating up optimates until they fled the city or gave the populares what they wanted.

[Martinned2]

Sorry, forgot the source: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/republican-senator-murkowski-threat-trump-retaliation-we-are-all-afraid-2025-04-17/

[Michael P]

1st Century BC Rome was a real place, not some creation of fervid imaginations as indicated by your "too".

[Martinned2]

Yes, it was a real place. Are you somehow under the impression that it wasn't? Because I know you are delusional, but I didn't realise it was that bad.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Wow, a blatantly illegal bullying comment. Reported to the 'Yard.

[Kazinski]

Political retaliation has always been a thing.

Its why Kyrsten Sinema is no longer in the Senate, she lost her donors and her base for not supporting party priorities.

[Martinned2]

Sure, let's pretend that "losing donors" is what she was talking about.

[Bob from Ohio]

She's talking about political retaliation. You made the jump to physical fear.

We discussed the CEO murder up thread. A Pali supporter just almost killed a governor. Two attempts to murder Trump.

Physical threats sure seem to be from your side these days.

[LawTalkingGuy]

You’re still unapologetically using an ethnic slur, eh?

[Bob from Ohio]

Its like using Nazi for National Socialist.

[LawTalkingGuy]

Okay. So you’d be comfortable saying referring to a Latino as a spic? Or a Japanese person as a jap? Or a Pakistani person as a paki?

After all, it’s just an abbreviation.

[Bob from Ohio]

Whoosh!

[LawTalkingGuy]

No I think I understood you perfectly: you fill entitled to use an ethnic slur based on the theory it’s an abbreviation and it’s okay because this ethnic group is equivalent to the nazis.

Which you would certainly have no problem saying to the face of a Palestinian in a public setting right?

[Mr. Bumble]

Is ambulance chaser a slur.

[Kazinski]

How about Brit, Yank, Aussie?

Frog and Krout is definitely at least a little derogatory, but nobody ever really minds.

[Mr. Bumble]

How about colored kids?

[Kazinski]

Well I remember being out in the hinterlands of Japan more than 40 yr pears ago, and it had been 4 or 5 days since I've seen another White man (ignoring that a lot of Japanese are paler than I am).

And then when visiting a shrine of some kind having a whole school bus of 5-6 year olds stop and point at me and scream "Gaijin Da", which translates to 'foreign devil ahoy'.

[Kazinski]

Its in the first paragraph of the article you posted:

WASHINGTON, April 17 (Reuters) - Republican U.S. Senator Lisa Murkowski disclosed this week that the threat of political retaliation from President Donald Trump is real enough to make her anxious about speaking out about his tariffs, executive orders and cuts to federal agencies."

And it probably isn't just donors, its probably federal projects for Alaska too and other things on her legislative agenda.

Welcome to the real world.

[Jmaie]

Yes, but Martinned2 is not taking about that kind of retaliation...

[Bob from Ohio]

No evidence she was talking about violence. Just some idiot's fevered imagination.

[Jmaie]

I was responding to M2's comment, "Roving groups of bandits running around beating up optimates until they fled the city or gave the populares what they wanted." Specified that right there in my comment...

[Bob from Ohio]

Poor little Nepo Baby Lisa. 67, she can collect social security now.

[shawn_dude]

Let's break this down.
- She was reelected last November and has over 5 years left on her current term.
- She's been in office since 2002 or 23 years of service towards her retirement.
- She qualifies for full social security today.
- She's a multi-millionaire.

Assuming she's truly afraid of political or physical retaliation and "we" refers to her and some other Senators:
- She should declare herself independent and caucus with the Democrats to subtract a seat from the GOP majority and prioritize her country over her party.
- If at least three more of the "we" group did that, the Democrats would take control of the Senate and Trump would lose his free pass.
- The only *political* leverage the GOP has over her is a primary from the Right but that cannot happen until she's in her 70s. Seems pretty lightweight.
- Physical threats against a sitting senator are serious and most of them are empty.
- She has decades of experience as a state Senator and been reelected multiple times. She's a politically savvy beltway insider. Those skill make her difficult to touch.

-OR-
This is all just a political act to gain political leverage of her own and she's not a victim here but a predator.
- See my prior remarks regarding her political acumen.
- The Senate GOP holds a slim, 3-seat majority.
- She has a history, along with Susan Collins of Maine, of saying centrist sorts of things and then largely voting lockstep with her party. This gives her a reputation with her constituents of being fair minded but with the GOP of being a team player.
- She can pull a "Manchin/Sinema" easily and use the cushion her constituents give her to argue for preferential treatment in exchange for her vote.
- The town hall exchange @Martinned2 refers to was adroitly executed to give people the impression she was just like them. It's the least aggressive GOP town hall I've seen this year so far.

Which of these do I think it is? The latter. Because if she cared about the impact on her constituents, she's in a very good position to fix that just by joining the Dems. She doesn't seem to need the money or the reelection. This was all just a case of alligator tears.

[ReaderY]

If the administration acts on Trump’s threat to revoke Harvard’s tax exemption status, Harvard would seem to have a pretty open-and-shut First Amendment retaliation case. The threat strikes me as a completely empty one.

[Krayt]

Getting uppity organizations in trouble with the IRS while faceting it's just concern for rule of law is old hat for all parties.

I am not the one justifying it. Pols using power to get in the way is wrong, is my central thesis.

[Longtobefree]

Not according to Lois Learner.

[DaveM]

Oh, how well I remember.

"Sorry, all seven of those hard drives have been upgraded and removed."

"Really? Where are they now?"

"Oh, they've been archived."

"Can you hand them over, then?"

"No, sorry, my bad, they've been erased as per normal operations"

"Well, can we unerase them?"

"Actually, no, it turns out we put a spike through the drives as per normal operations."

[Sarcastr0]

Yes, old hard drives with data the government doesn't want to get out have some wild disposition instructions.

This is not a coverup or a conspiracy.

[bernard11]

Lois Lerner.

Oh for Pete's sake. Why do you say something that stupid and act as if it's the all-time clincher?

Cite one case and pretend that completely proves your point.

Moronic thinking.

[Dr. Ed 2]

I had members of the ANC in one of my grad classes back in the '90s, they are Marxists who are somehow even more corrupt than the Soviets were. When they say "Black", they mean "party member", all of whom are also one (of numerous) African ethnic groups. Remember Rwanda, Africa has its own racism, it's just based on things other than skin color, e.g. shape of ears.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly3d8gd8mno

That said, exactly what is preventing Musk from offering Starlink service without permission of the ZA government? He could freely distribute the connection software (remember the AOL floppies?) and if hardware is needed, distribute that free of charge in a variety of ways, including do-it-yourself from available parts.

Payment could be in cripto, or foreign currency, or even ZA currency and anyone who pays has an active account. All jamming would do is get the ZA government in trouble with both the UN and their own people, who want the internet service -- the latter would be a real threat, and they wouldn't do it.

It would be like satellite TV in China where the government busts a few of the more outrageous violators but otherwise ignores it.

[Martinned2]

Good thing that Trump offered Afrikaners asylum in the US! Everybody knows that they are the real victims in South Africa.

[Brett Bellmore]

Yeah, actually everybody who follows the news DOES know that.

[Sarcastr0]

You one of those who thinks apartheid was rational and best for everyone?

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Wow, Sarcastr0 believes apartheid excuses mass murdering of Whites today.

You govies are sick bunch.

[wreckinball]

He's a complete moron.

[Brett Bellmore]

No, I'm one of those people who think apartheid was decades ago, since then the ANC took over, and ended up treating the whites worse than the South Africans had been treating the blacks.

But, go ahead and imagine that apartheid decades ago justifies genocide today.

[David Nieporent]

ended up treating the whites worse than the South Africans had been treating the blacks.

L - as they say - OL.

[Sarcastr0]

Ayep.
There it is.

[Jmaie]

One does not have to be racist to recognize that the black-run SA government does not consider farm invasions to be a priority. Now whether the relative treatment is "worse" is different issue.

This blog could well do with less personal attacks and more discussion of substance.

Edit - oops, look at me being the tone police...

[Sarcastr0]

If that was all Brett said, I'd at least find that a plausible position worth checking into.

But Martinned2's comment about the real victims was not countenencing a snapshot of today.

And then when I pushed Brett on the race issue he delivered as expected.

[Jmaie]

Stating that two racial groups are being treated differently doesn't sound racist...

[Sarcastr0]

Brett did not to a present-tense treatment comparison.

He did a very quick but historical comparison.
And providing no support for his view, he immediately and explicitly minimized apartheid.

No one who has been here long is surprised.

[LawTalkingGuy]

Charlie Brown had hoes

[Frank Drackman]

Too bad they'll find any US City is more dangerous than South Africa

[Dr. Ed 2]

MAGA versus Harvard, the leftist pukes don't stand a chance...

[Moderation4ever]

Seems like Havard's be around longer than MAGA. I suspect that Harvard will still be there when MAGA is long forgotten.

[Martinned2]

People will be able to go to Harvard and learn about it...

[shawn_dude]

Harvard gives legacy preference to children of its alumni. How many sitting GOP congresspersons and senators and members of Trump's leadership are alumni with kids? How many GOP donors?

What if all those applications accidentally fell to the bottom of the pile... wouldn't that be a shame?

[Moderation4ever]

Now 34 days since the Trump Administration mistakenly sent Kilmar Abrego Garcia to an El Salvator prison. A mistake the administration admits but seems reluctant to correct.

[jb]

I was just reminded this morning that the Trump administration directly intervened to get Andrew Tate out of Romanian jail and back in the US. Pretty interesting priorities!

[Frank Drackman]

US Citizen, not a Terrorist.

[hobie]

Frankie 'Wounded Warrior' Drackman, America's Neediest Veteran ™, so being an illegal immigrant is terrorism, but raping and trafficking women not so much

[Frank Drackman]

C'mon Hobie-Stank, I stopped talking about your stealing Veteran's Valor, and you're still persisting (HT Poke-a-Hontas) with the "Amurica's Neediest Veteran" (how do you make that "Copyright" thingie? I like it)
"Neediest"? not as much as the 22 Veterans who kill themselves every day (surprised it's not more as much as the VA fucks them)

Frank

[myself]

Rapist, not a Central American.

[Kazinski]

Latest I saw on it on BBC is they are back in Romania as of March 25th.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62xky7rn75o

That would seem strange if it took presidential intervention to get you out. But it also seemed strange withholding their passports for two years to prevent travel but not filing charges.

[jb]

They said when they left that they were going to return. Presumably part of whatever deal the administration worked out. Since we apparently agree the BBC is a credible source:

the brothers have been the subject of recent high-level discussions between the US and Romania.

Romanian officials say US counterparts brought up the brothers' case with the Romanian government earlier this month, a story first reported by the Financial Times.

And Trump special envoy Richard Grenell raised the issue again at a security conference in Munich.

It doesn't sound like the administration pressured Romania, but they did ask nicely, which is apparently more than they're willing to do to fix their own error in deporting Abrego Garica.

[Frank Drackman]

Are you sure Kil-more's in prison? he was having drinks with a DemoKKKrat Senator yesterday. (Of course with Senator Representatives Menendez, Corrine Brown, Charles Rangel, I guess if you were going to have drinks with them, it would have to be in a prison)

[John F. Carr]

Not "reluctant". "Does not want to correct." An undesirable alien was deported. Trump doesn't see a problem and doesn't want to show weakness.

[rloquitur]

Yep, and that is the beauty of it.

[Commenter_XY]

There was an administrative error, like missing a check box.

But it was no mistake repatriating that POS, wife beating illegal alien gangbanger to El Salvador. No more victimizing Americans.

That is called: A good start.

[Moderation4ever]

Trump also pardon January 6th defendants with long criminal records, including sexual abuse, sexual abuse of a child, and rape. The fact is Peter Schwartz, Theodore Middendorf, David Daniel, Kasey Hopkins, and others all got pardons and more due process than Mr. Garcia.

[jb]

"There was an administrative error, like missing a check box."

This is so dumb. Sending a person to a country you're specially not allowed to send them to is not like missing a check box. Both are administrative errors, but other than that they have nothing in common.

[bernard11]

Look. XY has an absolute hatred for illegal immigrants. It doesn't matter what they've done or haven't done, good or bad.

Nothing matters except the hatred. What drives it is a mystery to me, but there it is.

[Commenter_XY]

I have contempt for wife beating illegal aliens. I believe in protecting women; you evidently, do not.

[Sarcastr0]

Speaking of Harvard, Baude's awesome Divided Argument had a live show there.

They did a pretty good procedural lay of the land on some Supreme Court holdings of interest, for those who like to know what they're talking about and not just yell about it:
https://dividedargument.com/episodes/in-whack-asap

[jb]

Here's a fun one: guy gets arrested on his way to work in Florida for looking brown (change is "entering the state illegally"). His Mom shows up at the arraignment with a copy of his birth certificate showing he's from Georgia. Judge agrees that the birth certificate is authentic and he shouldn't have been arrested, but can't release him because in the meantime ICE has put a detainer on him.

Eventually he gets released, but here we have an American citizen arrested and held in jail for apparently nothing other than looking immigrant-y. Just the cost of doing business to deport fewer immigrants than Biden, I guess.

Link to story: https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/17/us/lopez-gomez-citizen-detained-ice-florida/index.html

[Dan Schiavetta]

This kind of stuff is going to happen more and more often. My (black) nephew, in this country legally but not a citizen, is careful when and where he goes. Fortunately his transits across state lines (NJ to NY and back) are by car on heavy-traffic bridges and tunnels where there are unlikely to be police stops.

[Frank Drackman]

What has he done that would make a police stop problematic?

[not guilty]

DWB

[Frank Drackman]

Driving While Bi-Sexual? didn't realize that was a crime up there.

[SRG2]

Interesting to see what legal recourse he has.

But this is what cultists voted for - the clearly false imprisonment of US citizens.

[John F. Carr]

Story: "Riggans found no probable cause for the charge of crossing into Florida illegally but said she didn’t have jurisdiction to release Lopez-Gomez because of the ICE hold, court records show."

Massachusetts prohibits holding people on ICE detainers. See Lunn v. Commonwealth, 477 Mass. 517. Detainers are civil in nature and legislation would be required to authorize arrest. I assume the same question has been litigated under Florida law with the opposite conclusion.

[jb]

Non-compliance with ICE detainers is one of the features of "sanctuary" jurisdictions. I think they're generally complied with in most other places, although maybe Florida has laws that specifically demand compliance if the judge felt she couldn't release him.

Interestingly, though, it seems like the law under which the guy was arrested in the first place was supposed to be halted under a temporary restraining order.

[David Nieporent]

The federal government can never compel a state or local government to comply with ICE detainers, but of course state law could mandate that state officials do so.

[Commenter_XY]

No harm, no foul.

[jb]

You think being arrested for no reason at all and held in jail overnight is no harm? At a minimum, the guy missed a day at work

But more importantly: having your freedom taken away from you is a big deal. Elsewhere, you seem very concerned about the government's misuse of its ability to tax, but apparently you don't think it's a big deal at all when it misuses its police power. That's a bizarre sense of priorities tbh.

[John F. Carr]

I know somebody who almost lost her job after being mistakenly arrested on the way to work.

[Commenter_XY]

Sue the police for wrongful arrest. It is a slam dunk, according to you. No doubt it was racism, and nothing else whatsoever, am I right? Should be easy peasy.

[bernard11]

Sorry. I was wrong above. You even hate people who just look like they might be Hispanic immigrants, legal or otherwise.

[Commenter_XY]

The legal remedy is to sue the police for false arrest.

[Kazinski]

CNN reports that 56% of Americans Want ALL illegal aliens deported.

https://x.com/ClayTravis/status/1912856064048906734?t=gtp3_wpZB43VtA4Fj6WGyg&s=19

[Frank Drackman]

Love how the nerdy CNN reporter acts like he's discovered the cure for Cancer or something.

[jb]

Kind of weird that Trump is spending so much time and effort trying to kick out a bunch of legal immigrants if that's the priority...

[Sarcastr0]

Not that I don't love the window into your media choices, but CNN doesn't have the poll up, so we can't see anything about it other than this clip.

I'd love to engage (I'd they will not like the methods required to get there), but this is vapor.

Did you consider waiting to see details, or was it too good to check?

[Michael P]

Why do you hate CNN?

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

>Did you consider waiting to see details, or was it too good to check?

Jesus Christ. That South Park episode about people who smell their own farts comes to mind.

[Kazinski]

They were actually reporting on a Washington Post poll, not their own.

A brief search couldn't find that either, but did find this one from March 21st:
"As judges review Trump's migrant roundups, many voters are unbothered
Mar 21, 2025 — ... deportations in general. A Washington Post-Ipsos poll in February likewise found that 51 percent of Americans supported trying to deport all...."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2025/03/21/trump-deportations-judges-migrants/

Notice support is up 5% in the two months while the whole Boasberg, Xinis, Garcia TdA circus has been going on.

Its paywalled but knock yourself out.

[Sarcastr0]

I appreciate the spadework, even if it was untangling your own share.

But now I can't take a look until tomorrow.

[Kazinski]

I was curious about the cross tabs too, and looked it up before I posted it.

I'm guessing if you include those who are in favor of limited exceptions like parents of citizens, or people who have been here more than 10 years, then I the numbers of people wanting everyone who came during the Biden surge would be up higher that 75%.

But I'm just speculating.

[Absaroka]

It is the 250th anniversary of Lexington and Concord:

"In the spring of 1775, General Gage began a series of sweeps through the countryside to seize the colonists’ weapons. Finally, on the night of 18 April, he ordered Col. Francis Smith to march a column of light infantry and grenadiers to Concord to apprehend two of the revolt’s most prominent ringleaders, John Hancock and Samuel Adams, and destroy any arms seized there. When word of the British advance got out, several riders, including Paul Revere and William Dawes, sped ahead of the British to raise the alarm. In the dark of night, colonists in Massachusetts assembled to fight. In Concord, militia and townspeople labored to move most of the arms and ammunition to safety."

Also, Samuel Whittemore rocks: "80-year-old Samuel Whittemore , a colonial veteran of several wars, strapped on a saber, shoved two pistols in his belt, shouldered his musket, and joined his fellow soldiers. Whittemore killed two redcoats and wounded another before others closed in, shooting him in the face, bayoneting him (ed: 13 times!), and leaving him for dead. The battle moved on. By nightfall, the British had returned to Boston, and Massachusetts provincial encampments ringed the city. When townspeople found Whittemore, he was not only still alive but carefully loading his musket for another crack at the British. Whittemore would live for another twelve years."

[jb]

Why are there so few movies about the Revolutionary War? Whittemore could be an awesome character in one.

[Martinned2]

Because that would make the Colonists look bad, and therefore wouldn't land well with US audiences.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Another hate crime. Reported to the Queen.

[Bob from Ohio]

"Because that would make the Colonists look bad, and therefore wouldn't land well with US audiences."

What? Killing Brits would not make "Colonists look bad".

[Martinned2]

Sure, I guess they could just do a complete fiction and leave out the gang pressing, slavery, greed, and racism. But then if they were going to do that they might as well make a movie about the Odyssey for all the realism it would have.

[Bob from Ohio]

"gang pressing"

I believe you are talking about the Royal Navy.

Your country has plenty of "slavery, greed, and racism" in its past. No movies about Holland!

Oh, yeah, how is Santa's little black helper these days? Speaking of racism. No chistmas movies in Holland either!

[Martinned2]

No, I’m talking about how George Washington got his soldiers, which unsurprisingly resulted in double-digit weekly desertion rates. All the Brits had to do to get soldiers is promise slaves their freedom, something the Colonists very much did not want to do.

[Bob from Ohio]

All the Brits had to do to get soldiers is pay German princes.

"something the Colonists very much did not want to do."

The Southern colonies, no doubt, but Rhode Island had a regiment made up initially of slaves who thereby were freed. There were other blacks in Northern regiments

According to "African Americans in the Revolutionary War" on wikipedia, Brits had about 20,000 black soldiers and the US about 9,000

[Krayt]

It's rough, living under the freedom they provided, isn't it?

[Martinned2]

Goes to show, if the British had done a better job seizing those weapons, we probably wouldn't be in this mess.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

That sort of illegal online bullying is going to get you arrested. Reported to M6.

[Mr. Bumble]

"We"?

[Martinned2]

"We", as in: "the world".

[Mr. Bumble]

I'm sure you would have thrived under German rule.

[ThePublius]

Get lost Martinned2. Who would have bailed the Brits (and the Dutch and the French) out of two world wars if not the U.S. You'd all be speaking German over there if we hadn't won the revolutionary war.

Well, maybe you have a point, maybe that would have been better....

By the way, "we," the world, is not in a mess due to the U.S., it's in it's own stinking mess.

Try a little experiment. Post some stuff on social media criticizing politicians, or trans folk, or abortionists, and see if you get a door knock from the coppers.

[Martinned2]

The Netherlands was liberated by the Polish and the Canadians, which is pretty much who would have done it without the American War of Independence. Remember, the counterfactual isn’t hundreds of millions of people being blinked out of history, Thanos-style.

[Bob from Ohio]

"KERKRADE, Netherlands – The town of Kerkrade, the Netherlands, gathered Oct. 5 to celebrate the 80th year of liberation from Nazi occupation with a ceremony, parade, reenactors, and a liberty ball. Distinguished visitors spoke of freedom regained and remembrance of the sacrifice of the U.S. Army 30th Infantry Division.

“I am here today with deep pride and humility,” said U.S. Army Garrison Benelux Commander Col. Patrick Hofmann. “It is an honor to stand in a place rich with both history and resilience.”

In 1944, the U.S. Army 30th Infantry Division fought across France and swept through Belgium and the Netherlands rescuing town after town from Nazi oppressors—Kerkrade being the last town to be liberated in South Limburg that year."

Many other examples of the US contribution on the internet, including a long one at the US Embassy site, though you would probably consider that propaganda.

Of course the Poles were funded, equipped, transported and armed by the United States, having lost their nation in 1939.

[Jmaie]

[ThePublius]

You know, you're full of it Martinned2, and it's clear you hate America. There is no way the Poles and Canucks could have liberated anything without the U.S. The Poles didn't even have a country then. Keep lying to yourself, but don't expect others to engage in your delusion.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Here are a set of facts, draw your own conclusions:

- Maryland Man was found to be an MS-13 gang member by Maryland PD, ICE, an immigration judge, and affirmed on appeal by an Immigration judge.
- Maryland Man had a domestic violence protection order filed against him
- Maryland Man allegedly has "MS-13" tattoo'd across his fingers
- Maryland Man had an open, standing deportation order that had been adjudicated and unsuccessfully appealed.
- Maryland Man was pulled over and credibly suspected as a human trafficker, ordered let go by Biden's FBI.
- Maryland Man's deportation order excludes El Salvador out of fears of retribution by a RIVAL GANG.
- Democrats say Maryland Man, under fear of a RIVAL GANG, isn't in a gang.
- Democrat politicians fly to El Salvador and call him a "constituent".
- Democrats say Maryland Man didn't receive due process.
- Democrat judges find Maryland Man didn't receive due process.
- Democrats have raised hundreds of thousands of dollars, second only to a black who murdered a promising young White man.
- Democrats and Democrat judges claim he shouldn't be deported.

[Frank Drackman]

Maryland Man, don't need him around, anyhow.

[SRG2]

Here are a set of facts, draw your own conclusions.

Without a trial, Maryland man was deported to the one place that the courts had said he must not be deported to, knowing that he would be imprisoned indefinitely without a trial.

- Maryland Man allegedly has "MS-13" tattoo'd across his fingers

"Allegedly" means it's not a fact.

Interesting that you don't cite the source of the unevidenced claim that he's MS-13. But that's the kind of fact that you'd rather not present.

Look, AFAIC he may well be MS-13, a gangbanger and violent criminal. But until we've had a genuine hearing as opposed to one-sided claims (unsupported by any documentation, etc), he should not have been deported to a prison.

IT's evident that you think that only we should get constitutional protections. Those people shouldn't.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

>Without a trial, Maryland man was deported to the one place that the courts had said he must not be deported to, knowing that he would be imprisoned indefinitely without a trial.

He already had an immigration trial, and lost his appeal. Why would there be another trial?

>Interesting that you don't cite the source of the unevidenced claim that he's MS-13. But that's the kind of fact that you'd rather not present.

lol the DOJ released their documents. Further it's in the immigration court records. The fact that an immigration judge found cause not to remove him to El Salvador because of a RIVAL GANG, should be a clue to you that a judge found him to be in a gang. FYI, you can't be threatened by a RIVAL GANG, if you aren't in a gang to begin with.

>But until we've had a genuine hearing as opposed to one-sided claims (unsupported by any documentation, etc), he should not have been deported to a prison.

There already were two hearings. Why do we need more? Keep having them until you find a judge willing to say what you want?

>IT's evident that you think that only we should get constitutional protections. Those people shouldn't.

He's already had a hearing and an appeal, which he lost. What more is he due?

[SRG2]

He did not have a hearing prior to deportation, nor did any prior hearing establish guilt.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

His 2019 hearings were the deportation hearings.

[SRG2]

I see. Did those earlier hearings find beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty of crimes and should therefore be imprisoned for an indeterminate time by an agent of the US government?

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Quite the goalpost move.

lol

He was under a deportation order. He had due process. What other countries do to gang bangers is their own business and irrelevant.

[SRG2]

What other countries do to gang bangers is their own business and irrelevant.

It isn't when they're acting as agents of the US government, as El Salvador clearly is. The regime handed him over - by mistake as even they acknowledge - in full awareness and intent of the consequences.

FWIW the regime still hasn't supplied proof that he's a gangbanger.

[Bob from Ohio]

clearly!

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Other than the PD report, the ICE report, the immigration judge findings, and appellate judge's findings, known associates being gang members, a protective order to protect him from a RIVAL GANG and the MS-13 tattoo on his fingers, zero proof!

[SRG2]

The later "findings" were based on the earlier finding in turn based on that one uncorroborated report by a later discredited cop. Immigration judges are not Article III judges, fwiw.

[Commenter_XY]

He had his hearing with an immigration court, and an appeal. The POS wife beating MS-13 gangbanger is home now, in CECOT.

He will never return to victimize Americans again.

[shawn_dude]

And the appeal said the evidence was sketchy at best and the immigration judge agreed that deporting him to El Salvador was a bad idea.
.

[David Nieporent]

Virtually none of those are actual facts, since that word requires that the statements be true.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Sure thing David DeNile-porent.

[Frank Drackman]

Its just me, but if I was a prisoner in a Salvadoran Prison, and got a sit-down with the President of El Salvador, the one guy who can release me, I think I'd take off my hat.
(Remember that 3 Stooges Episode where the Ballif keeps trying to get Curly to take the Witness Oath? ("Do you Swear?" "No, but I know all the words!") "Raise your Right Hand!" "Take off Your Hat!" "Raise your Right Hand!" "Will you Take off Your Hat!?!?!?" "Raise your Right Hand!" Hilarious

Frank

[hobie]

Slapstick has always appealed to the less advanced. You see it still prevalent and black and latin content. Regular white people left Benny Hill behind a long time ago

[Frank Drackman]

Derek Chauvin should have said Floyd George was armed with a Banana (Cops I know always carry a "Throw Down" Banana)

[Ska]

Then moved on to the far more sophisticated Jackass.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

>Slapstick has always appealed to the less advanced. You see it still prevalent and black and latin content. Regular white people left Benny Hill behind a long time ago

I too, believe darkies and other coloreds are far less advanced than us regular White people.

*raises glass to a fellow White man*

[Frank Drackman]

Not sure if I agree with your Police work there Magnus, Jay Leno used to joke that you could go into Mission Control at NASA and find Space Engineers laughing at 3 Stooges Videos (OK, it was a while ago) but your typical waitress wouldn't find them funny, i.e., "Real Men" laugh at Moe, Larry, and Curly (and I like Shemp too, Curley Joe Besser, not so much) I shudder to think what you just revealed about your Sexuality.

Frank

[not guilty]

Joe Besser was a Stooge, as was Curly Joe DeRita. There was not a Curley Joe Besser.

[Frank Drackman]

Knew I was screwing that up, whenever I saw either one of those in the credits I knew it was gonna suck (OK, Besser's "Not so HARD!!!!!!!!! was sort of funny)

Frank

[Jmaie]

Plus, Shemp? Really?

[Dan Schiavetta]

The best Stooges bits did not involve violence. That's why I still watch them.

[Frank Drackman]

You must be talking about the Band, you can't go 10 seconds in your typical Stooges episode without an Eye Poke, Dope Slap, Hair Pull

Frank

[Kazinski]

Kind of a stupid thing to say, I run across a half dozen white idiots for every black or brown idiot I meet.

And of course the ones that aren't idiots can be more insufferable than the mentally deficient, and often the more "advanced" the more insufferable.

Best to makes judgement based on individual observations.

[hobie]

Today the NY Times published an interview with 13 independent Trump voters. In theory, these would be the people who would be most likely to regret their choice. And you know what? They are all happy as clams. They say Trump is doing a great job and what he's doing is exactly what they voted for. They like the deportations. They don't mind any pain from tariffs. None of the collateral damage bothers them. (most don't like Musk however)

Fellow gentlemen and also the hayseeds...I fear the worm has turned. The pods have finished their conversions. We're a different nation

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Closer to 1776 than your foul 2030 vision. Thank God for President Trump.

[SRG2]

Closer to 1933 Germany than 1776 American colonies

[Dr. Ed 2]

1932 was caused by 1919...

[ThePublius]

No, Biden had us close to 1933 Germany, Trump is unwinding all of that.

[SRG2]

If that were true, you'd have supported Biden and opposed Trump

[Frank Drackman]

Right, in 2028 "47" will win 8 of 8 "Toss up" States

[tylertusta]

This should be an educational moment on good governance, but it probably won't be.

Our parties are broken.

[Kazinski]

So what do you blame/credit the turnaround to?

I credit 8 years of Obama, followed by 4 years of tooth and nail fighting Trump (who was less radical 8 years ago) followed by 4 years of Biden.

The voters did not like the direction they were being led, and clearly want a major retrenchment.

It certainly didn't help what is happening in states and cities with permanent democratic majorities, necrophilia on the subway seems to call for a different direction.

Trump increased his vote share in more than 90% of counties in the US, including heavily democratic areas like New York.

[David Nieporent]

The voters did not like the direction they were being led, and clearly want a major retrenchment.

Clearly!

Never before in human history has the vote of less than 50% of the country been treated as some sort of groundswell of support for their position.

[Kazinski]

You aren't disagreeing with what I said:

The voters did not like the direction they were being led

You aren't seriously disputing that are you?

CNN Poll: Democratic Party’s favorability drops to a record low
https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/16/politics/cnn-poll-democrats/index.html

Oh no doubt we are still a 50-50 country, but obviously something is going on:
"Trump's approval rating soars to new high, Americans say US is on right track than any time in 20 years: poll"

Forget the approval rating more American's say US is on the right track than anytime in last 20 years is the significant number.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/global-trends/us-news-donald-trump-approval-rating-nbc-poll-are-americans-happy-with-trump-what-poll-says-about-us-presidents-approval-ratings/articleshow/119111371.cms?from=mdr

I did not claim that translates for unbridled enthusiasm for Trump, but certainly a mandate for not continuing what was being done the last 4 years.

And they are not rejecting the direction Trump is leading, at least not yet.

[David Nieporent]

You aren't disagreeing with what I said:

The voters did not like the direction they were being led

You aren't seriously disputing that are you?

Actually, what I was seriously disputing was that they "clearly want a major retrenchment." Which is why I explicitly called out your use of the word "clearly."

But since you mention it, yes, I will disagree with your conclusion that they "did not like the direction they were being led." Disapproval can result from wanting to go in a different direction or from thinking that the government isn't doing enough in the direction it's going. (Of course, we can all read what we want into such an approval poll in the abstract, but at the end of the day, we know that pretty much as many people voted for the status quo as for Trump, making it silly to make any assertion about what voters wanted.
​
​
(Also, the random poll you cite is a month old, before Trump tried to destroy the world economy and end the rule of law.)

[Michael P]

To paraphrase Tom Wolfe, the dark night of roving groups of bandits beating people up for political purposes is always descending on the MAGAts but only lands amongst Dems.

https://jonathanturley.org/2025/04/18/washington-state-university-instructor-arrested-for-allegedly-assaulting-trump-supporter/

[Sarcastr0]

What's your definition of "roving groups of bandits?"

[Michael P]

Ask the guy up-thread who thinks there is some modern analogue to 1st century BC Rome, and then denied he was just imagining things.

[Martinned2]

LOL, we were talking just this week about how Eisenhower had to send the army out to stop that happening. Armed groups intimidating unpopular minorities is something that has been happening in the US pretty much as long as the country has existed.

[hobie]

Must be referring to militias. I'm surprised Michael would turn on his fellow preppers

[Mr. Bumble]

"What's your definition of "roving groups of bandits?"

Democrats.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Now the Karmelo Krowd is SWAT'ing the victims father after rewarding the murderer with hundreds of thousands of dollars.

A culture of violence. And the Left is only escalating. Look at their current culture hero's:

- A domestic terrorist who assassinated a CEO point blank.
- A violent black male who murdered an innocent White kid who had the telemetry to ask the black to stop trespassing.
- A human trafficking, MS-13 illegal gang banger who beats his wife.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

How could I forget their nationwide terror campaign against Tesla drivers and Tesla related small businesses.

[Krayt]

Temerity, not telemetry. Unless they were texting back and forth, including phone GPS location.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

lol yes, thank you.

[ThePublius]

"telemetry"

I think you meant temerity.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

That's what I get for asking Claude to use a $10 word...

[Longtobefree]

Millions of dead babies, General; don't forget millions of dead babies.

[questioner7]

A judge denied bail to Rumeysa Ozturk because she is a "flight risk" and "danger to the community" based solely on her pro-Palestinian op-ed. This seems wrong beyond the "reasonable minds can disagree" level. Aren't there any articulable standards that judges must follow when making these determinations?

[Mr. Bumble]

No.

[Commenter_XY]

The gov just wants to make sure she makes her flight back home, which cannot happen soon enough.

[John F. Carr]

Here is some information from a pro-immigrant group: https://www.ilrc.org/sites/default/files/resources/evidentiaryissuesinbondproceedings-final.pdf.

[TwelveInchPianist]

I just found out that there's a nursing degree called a DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice). It's an academic doctorate, and its recipients are theoretically entitled to use the honorific "Dr."

In many jurisdictions (but not others) DNP's catch holy hell, legally and with the licensing board, if they do use it.

Why would the industry allow such a confusing thing to happen?

[Mr. Bumble]

Gets you a better table at the restaurant.

[Krayt]

Nursing, like any other non-trivial thing, has PhDs who push theory and practice forward.

Just be glad most nursing schools have given up on handwaving aura adjustment class.

[Kazinski]

Its not unusual or new.

My daughter has a Doctor of Pharmacy degree (PharmD), and works in a hospital and unlike Jill Biden knows she isn't a real Doctor, and would never dream of even suggesting she be called Doctor.

And its not an "academic" degree its a practicing degree.

In a hospital there is only one kind of doctor, all though more than one specialty, and everyone else even if there is "doctor" in their degree knows it.

[Frank Drackman]

I know I'm dealing with mostly Arithmetic Illiterates, but wouldn't a "Toss Up" State be considered umm, literally (I'm just Illiterate Illiterate) a "Coin Toss", i.e. 50/50? (unless the Coin is "Rigged".....)
And basic Statistics tells us that the chances of "47" winning all 7 "Toss Up" States is 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 or 1 in 256 (a few more states and you're in Poke-A-Hontas Native Amurican Background territory)
or 256:1,, but for months all the Lame Stream Media talked about was the "Toss Up" States (or "Battleground")
and we're supposed to believe them when they tell us Kill-More Garcias is just an honest family man??

Frank

[M L]

Nobody should ever believe them. I clicked on some article the other day and thought, OK, let's see what they have to say. I rarely read or watch any MSM directly. They just rant about the President, and in the first couple paragraphs, they had the ridiculous lie that egg prices are up. Everybody knows that egg prices are way down. Does anyone actually read this stuff much less believe it?

[Sarcastr0]

I rarely read or watch any MSM directly

Just Breitbart for ML!

[TwelveInchPianist]

"I know I'm dealing with mostly Arithmetic Illiterates, but...basic Statistics tells us that the chances of "47" winning all 7 "Toss Up" States is...1 in 256"

[Krayt]

To within margin of error. I appreciate the sarcastic statistical argument there must have been some fraud to make it go all Trump, though. His over the top BS went way too far, beyond the usual quadrennial BS anyhoo.

[Josh R]

It's 1 in 256 if each state is independent of each other. But, that is not the case. Nate Silver had as the two most likely outcomes Trump sweeps all 7 and Harris sweeps all 7.

[Frank Drackman]

1: How are the states not independent of each other? unless peoples are voting in more than 1 state, you holding back on some Erection Fraud?? and 2: Nate Sliver's an Idiot, he got 2 of the last 3 Erections wrong (and the one he got "Right" was (redacted) and people still listen to him.

[Josh R]

The 50% estimate in a state is based on the polls. Polling errors are correlated across states. That is, if they underestimate Trump in MI, they likely underestimate him in PA as well (and AZ too, but because of different demographics, with a lower correlation).

Silver gave Trump a 29% chance of wining in 2016, higher than any other polling aggregator (some others had Trump at 5% or even 1%). And why was Silver the best? The bad forecasters assumed independence across the states. Silver did not. All forecasters have now dropped independence across the states.

As to Silver being "wrong" in 2 out of the last 3, that's not true. He got 2020 "right" and had 2024 as a 50-50 tossup. Note and most importantly, I put "wrong" and "right" in quotes because Silver does not predict a winner. He predicts the probability of someone winning based on his model of poll aggregation. If the person with a 71% chance of winning always wins, Silver's model sucks. That person is supposed to lose 29% of the time.

[Kazinski]

I'd say Minnesota and Wisconsin are less independent of each other than Wisconsin and Arizona.

And the results kind of bear that out, Minnesota ad Wisconsin both shifted red compared to 2020, and Minnesota actually shifted more red than Wisconsin did, just not enough. And Illinois and New York shifted even further red than Minnesota.

Any theory that swing states scattered across the country have more in common than they do with their neighbors just doesn't match the data.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/10/us-election-results-map-2024-how-does-it-compare-to-2020

[Josh R]

Above, I said MI and PA have more in common than MI and AZ.

Silver's model takes all of that into account. He had a 20% chance of Trump wins all 7 and 14% for Harris (the two most likely outcomes of the 128 possibilities).

[Kazinski]

Ok.

But ALL 50 states shifted in Trump's direction. Zero shifted in Harris'. Whether a state shifted enough towards Trump to give him a majority was really the only question he should have been trying to answer.

If he was trying to consider if any states like NC would shift enough towards Harris to give her the win means his model was a total failure, just like trying to decide if Georgia and Arizona weren't going to shift more than 1/4 percentage point.

Its hard to claim a model that missed all 50 states swinging toward Trump almost had it right.

Perhaps if he had predicted that only 45 states shifted towards Trump then there may have been something there to salvage.

[Kazinski]

In fact, just to underscore that point the state with the least swing to Trump was Washington at +.98%, nationwide it was 6%, 4 of the 5 states with the biggest swing were deep blue states, NY NJ CA and MA, all by at least 8%. (Wikipedia has margin change from 2020 in their results by State).

It should have been hard for a competent model to miss that.

[Sarcastr0]

You are cherry picking your stats, as DMN noted.

You are trying very hard to manufacture a mandate.

[Kazinski]

Wait, how can I be cherry picking my stats when ALL 50 states shifted towards Trump?

And I included both the smallest shift, the average shift, and the largest?

I am just baffled.

[Sarcastr0]

Because that’s a janky back chosen metric. Like counties.

You count people, and it’s marginal. So you don’t.

It’s also a single election. You weave a whole story about Obama being at fault. Says a bit about you. Not much about America.

[Kazinski]

Oh, did you miss the part where the entire country shifted to Trump by 6%?

Who did I leave out there?

[Sarcastr0]

Trump went from having a losing approval to winning an election. You find this evidence the country has fundamentally shifted? Wow, life must be like a rollercoaster for you.

That's like terrifying stocks into a selloff and then when they recover some but not all of their value saying it was the biggest value increase ever.

That's the third violence you've done to stats to try and get over. Working way too hard because you can't factually get where you want to go.

You're narrative first, and your narrative of a huge electorate shifting mandate does not comport with what we can are able to learn from polls and the the 2024 election.

[Magister]

That shift could most easily be a shift from Biden to Harris. Turns out Trump can only beat women; misogynist candidate, misogynist voters.

[Josh R]

Based on his expected value in each state (*), Silver had all but DC and ND shifting towards Trump.

(*) But, we should not be looking at expected values because they do not account for correlation. He did not publish it, but I suspect his model had a fairly high chance (35% perhaps) that every state would shift towards Trump.

[bernard11]

I know I'm dealing with mostly Arithmetic Illiterates, ...

And basic Statistics tells us that the chances of "47" winning all 7 "Toss Up" States is 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 or 1 in 256 (a few more states and you're in Poke-A-Hontas Native Amurican Background territory)
or 256:1,, but for months all the Lame Stream Media talked about was the "Toss Up" States (or "Battleground")

You're one of the innumerate fools.

Multiplying probabilities like that is only correct if the events are independent of each other. These are definitely not. There is a positive correlation among the results in the tossup states. Each individual state can be 50-50, but two that are positively correlated are more likely to go the same way than to split.

[Jmaie]

Math is your friend, (1/2)^7 is *not* 1/256...

[Kazinski]

Also consider Minnesota was not a toss up (Harris +4), but Arizona was (Trump +6).

[M L]

Illegal MS-13 gang member and domestic abuser kicks back and sips margaritas with a U.S. Senator.

[M L]

Haven't been following the nooz much lately and this was an odd sight. This is what Democrats have going on, politically?

[Longtobefree]

It distracts from killing babies, castrating pre-teens, hating Jews, and ignoring the bill of rights.

[tylertusta]

Pretty much, yes. It's like they didn't learn any lessons from November.

This is an awfully stupid hill to die on. It feels like when they decided to filibuster Gorsuch's nomination in the Senate.

[bernard11]

What is this margaritas shit?

[tylertusta]

Garcia had margaritas with Senator Van Hollen when the Senator flew down to El Salvador.

https://x.com/Geiger_Capital/status/1913072602135806027

https://x.com/nataliegwinters/status/1913038653850542527

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

If you look closely you can see I ❤️ MS-13 tattoo'd across his fingers.

[tylertusta]

Of the images that I can find, they are too low-resolution to conclusively say that he has it on his fingers.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

There's that picture of the Senator at the table, and if you zoom in you can see it on the Senator's fingers.

On the gangbangers fingers it's Marijauna Leaf, Smiley face, cross, and half a skull (to look like a 3).

[tylertusta]

I don't see it. It's all just a blur in every image I've seen.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gox1pR9bgAAIs6M?format=jpg&name=large

Zoom in on the right hand. The only one that's hard to confirm is the skull, but you can still see an impression of it there.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GozWMgtaEAAq5Dv?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Zoom in on right hand there. The skull is apparent.

[Kazinski]

Much clearer picture here.

https://x.com/SonofHas/status/1913369270198874279?t=plT04UpSNNQuJ1Fb7bu2Pg&s=19

[Josh R]

Van Hollen said El Salvadoran officials put the extra glasses there. They also wanted the meeting to take place poolside. Senator Columbo also pointed out none of the salt was touched. They didn't drink from the planted glasses.

[Longtobefree]

There is no proof that the senator was registering him to vote - - - - - - - -

[Frank Drackman]

Carnac the Magnificent and Ed McMahon are looking down from Heaven (umm, according to his Ex Wifes, maybe Johnny's "Looking Up", and I'm not so sure about Ed with that "Publishers Clearing House" racket) and thinking of all the material they'd have with todays news.
Ed M : "Kill-more Garcias"
Carnac: "what did the MS-13 gang leader do in the US?"
Ed M: "Kill more Garcias!, Hi-Yo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Carnac: "May Elizabeth Warren tongue kiss your only begotten Son!"

Frank

[rloquitur]

https://nypost.com/2025/04/17/us-news/ag-letitia-james-calls-trump-admin-allegations-of-mortgage-fraud-baseless-interview/

Tish James, wriggling on the fish hook. Maybe they can send her to El Salvador.

[LawTalkingGuy]

On what legal basis could you send a us citizen to El Salvador?

[rloquitur]

Lighten up, Francis. My view, honestly, is that I wouldn't give a shit if they did. She thought nothing of abusing citizens and trying to influence an election through bogus civil litigation. So whatever happens to her in response, in my view, is just business.

[Sarcastr0]

I wouldn't give a shit if they did.

That's not how this works. rando Internet fucker deciding you don't like someone doesn't mean they don't get the process protections of every citizen.

Amazing how no one on the left has called or cheered the idea of exiling or deporting American citizens without review.
MAGA has a ton of people who just this week have failed that challenge over and over.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Woah, great finger wag and plenty of time on your hands! You must have a position of high importance in the federal government!

[Absaroka]

This is a PSA on vetting sources. Upthread a source called tennesseestar dot com is cited.

To be clear, I'm not commenting one way or the other on the debate involved there. I'm just suggesting a little caution on sourcing, whatever side of whatever debate you happen to be on.

From a cursory look, you think 'Aha, a local newspaper'. And TBH, I really like those as primary sources. But I don't think that this is one. If you plug the base URL into archive dot org, it first appears in 2017. Given the overall trajectory of the small town newspaper market, it seems unlikely that someone started one then. And if you look at their home page for that first edition, at first blush it looks OK ... but there isn't a 'contact' page. How are people supposed to call in scoops? Let's look at the sports page to see how the local high school team is doing ... hmmm, no local teams are mentioned. Since when does the local paper not cover local sports?

Maybe they are just gearing up, after all, so pick a date a year later ... the sports page has been dropped. There still isn't a 'contact' page. Clicking on the local news section is kinda interesting ... there aren't any car wrecks, bank robberies, house fires. It's all political news.

Whatever this place is, it isn't your traditional small town paper; caveat emptor.

[jb]

Probably explains why absolutely no one responded to their request for comment.

[Kazinski]

Better update that. The Tennessee Highway Patrol did officially comment and confirmed most of the story. None of it was denied.

Details above, but keep hope alive.

And the way to build credibility is to do original reporting like this and then have it confirmed.

[tylertusta]

It's there. You just missed it since it's under the "Home" dropdown and doesn't have it's own top-level menu on their main page. It's bad UI design (which is a common mistake).

Here's a link to the Wayback Machine's record of their contact us page from March 29, 2017:

https://web.archive.org/web/20170329194051/http://tennesseestar.com/1105-2/

[jb]

So their address is a PO Box at a UPS store. Probably not great evidence that it's an actual local newspaper.

[tylertusta]

... their address is in Nashville.

Have you ever set up mail for an online business before?

Look, I clearly can't stop you from dreaming up new conspiracy theories. So I'll let you just keep digging and I'll pretend to just nod along.

[Absaroka]

It is now. In the 2017 page you linked it's a strip mall in Franklin, TN. That strip mall has a UPS store. The UPS Store's PMB address is 'Suite 130', vs the '103-538' listed in your link.

There are a bunch of businesses listing 'Suite130-xxx' as an address.

The only other address of the form '2000 Mallory Lane, Suite 103-XXX' I could find 'Goodbye BodyFat' at 103-340.

I dunno if the '103' was a typo for 130, or if there is some other PMB service at 103, or 103 is a bunch of brick-n-mortar stores and offices that don't list addresses on the web.

[tylertusta]

In the 2017 page you linked it's a strip mall in Franklin, TN.

It's location in 2017 is a few minutes drive outside of Nashville, TN.

[jb]

I'm not putting forth a conspiracy theory, just agreeing that this doesn't necessarily look like an actual local newspaper despite the name and branding.

[David Nieporent]

To be clear, it is part of a network of astroturfed websites that are designed to superficially look/sound like local newspapers. There's a Georgia Star and an Ohio Star and a Virginia Star and about 10 others. None have a masthead or a local presence, and all are run out of some MAGA guy's mother's basement in Tennessee.

[Absaroka]

Good catch!

Dunno about the location ... the current address is an office building in Nashville.

The phone number they list - 615-538-85xx is also the listed phone number for "The Arizona Sun Times", doubtless another authentic small town paper.

It's also the phone listed at starnewsdigitalmedia dot com, which says "Star News Digital Media, Inc. is a media and news company that owns and operates The Star News Network family of digital newspapers and Star News Radio. ... Star News Digital Media’s first title – The Tennessee Star – launched in February, 2017.

Since then, the company has launched additional state-based titles in Ohio, Minnesota, Michigan, Virginia, Georgia, Florida, Arizona, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, and South Carolina ..."

I went searching for 'The Wisconsin Daily Star'. It has a web page. Its contact page just links back to the network one, with the same phone number.

These really don't smell like local homegrown papers with in-the-know local reporters ferreting out the news on the scene. Having all your reporters sharing one phone would make traditional journalism pretty hard, I'd think.

[tylertusta]

What do the DNS registrations say?

[Kazinski]

Right, but how old is Axios?

Founded 2016. Are they OK to link?

Truth is small town and regional newspapers are dying, and something is going to replace them.

For that matter the Washington Post died, and someone bought the shell and replaced what it was with something else.

The question is are they doing original reporting and opinion and putting out their own content.

I don't know how accurate their reporting is, and I did label it as "not a mainstream outlet", but they claim to have two sources in the TN Highway Patrol, and they followed up with another story, saying they followed up with an inquiry to the TN Bureau of Investigation, who said they had no information on the incident (which isn't surprising because the story says the FBI was contacted not the TBI).

And the story matches details from Just the News story based on the information from DHS.

Seems like decent reporting to me, the kind that someone is looking for the truth would do, we know kind of reporting an outlet that that is not looking for the truth would do, which is none at all.

[shawn_dude]

Axios doesn't present itself as a hometown paper and it hires real journalists and editors. The best way to tell if a new source is at least reasonable is to find its corrections section and see how often it corrects its own mistakes.

[Absaroka]

Let me repeat my thesis: "Whatever this place is, it isn't your traditional small town paper; caveat emptor."

I'm happy to read sources from across the spectrum, from Daily Kos to Instapundit. They all have their uses. An article covering a tornado is going to read about the same whether it is from MSNBC or Fox. If it is a divisive political issue, their coverage may be very different. I want to know what that slant is, and I will be a lot more careful vetting controversial things that happen to align with a publication's political preferences. On the other hand, if one of those reports a detail that is counter to their politics, I can probably take that as true.

There is a wiki page for this source. It's not a great article; the linked Salon article has more details. Whatever this is, it doesn't have the ring of a "Just the facts, ma'am" local paper.

Everyone has a viewpoint and a motive. IMHE, genuine local papers generally have a motive of staying solvent, and being overly slanted in their coverage doesn't further that aim. This web site seems to have a fairly obvious political slant. There's nothing wrong with that; Daily Kos and Breitbart do too - but you want to read them with that slant in mind.

The hometown newspaper facade puts me off a little, I will confess. Maybe they just think that will attract eyeballs and hence ad revenue, as opposed to hoping it makes them appear unbiased, I dunno.

[Kazinski]

Well I agree with most of that. New sources especially with an ideological bent have to earn trust.

In this particular case they did original reporting, that nobody else had done, found sources for the information and got the official spokesman for the THP to responded and confirm the story.

Too often what happens is the established, and establishment, media does not want a story like his told, and they are not going out looking for it.

And just to also be clear, I made sure to note that it was not a mainstream source when I posted it.

And in whatever case, now the story has been confirmed by an official source.

[A Woman of No Importance]

An interesting situation.

We are taking opposing party's deposition this morning. Party shows up; attorney does not. Our paralegal calls opposing counsel's office to find out where he is, only to be told it's not on his calendar but send me the zoom link and I'll be right there.

As it happens, we have two cases with that opposing party, who is represented by different counsel in each case. Our paralegal screwed up and called the wrong law firm. So, the firm that was supposed to be there is still MIA, and the attorney who is now on the call thinks he's there for a different case. The deposition is ongoing as we speak. Neither of the attorneys who is present for the still ongoing deposition is aware of the screw up.

Question: Do I have an ethical obligation to run in and halt the deposition, or should I just munch on popcorn and see how it plays out?

[Bwaaah]

Let's assume what you state is true. Your question is, "Do I have an ethical obligation..?"

I can't say whether or not you have an "ethical obligation." I can say that your behavior indicates you lack a sense of ethics.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Exactly. What a garbage human that dude is.

[Frank Drackman]

So you're not only a Woman of No Importance, but of no Morals either (I love the Women of No Importance/Morals!) Methinks you may soon be the Woman of No Law License

[A Woman of No Importance]

Oh come on guys it was a rhetorical question. The issue was fixed as soon as we realized what had happened. I posted it here for humor value.

[Bob from Ohio]

"I posted it here for humor value."

“You tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.”
― Homer Simpson

[Bwaaah]

Or as I have learned to understand, "Failure begins with trying."

[A Woman of No Importance]

Leftists are frequently accused of being humorless. Glad to see they don't have the monopoly on it.

[Bob from Ohio]

Its a poor comic who blames the audience when a joke flops.

[A Woman of No Importance]

You're assuming the handful who commented are a representative sampling of the audience. I suspect 95% of the people who read it got that it was a joke and moved on. So I'm not blaming the audience; just the stupid 5%.

[Frank Drackman]

Somebody call?

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

lol nice walk-back. Didn't expect this much heat did you?

FYSA, there are many 1776 Patriots on this board. Your commie nonsense won't get traction here.

[A Woman of No Importance]

What I was expecting was that people here would be smart enough to recognize an obvious joke. Like the joke about the lawyer who discovered he had overcharged a client a thousand dollars and was immediately faced with the ethical dilemma of whether he had to share it with his partner. Would you have taken that seriously too, or would even you have been smart enough to recognize that was a joke? Or that if I actually had been simply munching popcorn, that I would be stupid enough to announce to the world that I don't have any ethics?

I may regret having asked this, but what exactly is "commie" about my post?

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

>Question: Do I have an ethical obligation to run in and halt the deposition, or should I just munch on popcorn and see how it plays out?

That's not a punchline to a joke.

HTH

[A Woman of No Importance]

It was to that joke. Don't blame me that it whooshed over your pointy little head. And you still haven't told me what's commie about my comment.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

lol, have you no shame?

[A Woman of No Importance]

What I have is a grasp of the law of diminishing returns, so I'm going to go get some work done. Have a nice day.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

ttfn

[Dan Schiavetta]

Halt the deposition. In fact don't even let it start.

If this is a joke, I don't see the point.

[John F. Carr]

The ethical course is to ask the deponent questions meant for a different party represented by the same counsel.

[A Woman of No Importance]

+1

[Bwaaah]

Steve Martin: "I got a great dirty trick you can play on a three year old kid...whenever you're around them, talk wrong." https://youtu.be/40K6rApRnhQ?t=21

[LawTalkingGuy]

So the acting US Attorney for DC, Ed Martin, has sent letters to private peer-reviewed medical journals, including a pulmonology journal whose editor works for the Cleveland Clinic, demanding information on their publishing practices and how it relates to “viewpoint diversity” and “misinformation” and “partisanship.” This is so absurd that the free speech implications are like the last thing on my mind and I have several questions:

1. HTF did the DC US attorney from Missouri who isn’t even a med mal guy find out about a pulmonology journal in the first place? Did some crank whose ivermectin article was rejected call him up?

2. WTF does he think he even has jurisdiction to ask these questions? What does this have to do with enforcing federal law in DC? Why does he think he can ask questions of someone not in his jurisdiction about activities not in his jurisdiction and they would respond (even aside from the free speech issues)?

3. How isolated is he in that office, that this is what he’s spending his time on? He’s either 1) too stupid to notice he’s been boxed out by career prosecutors from the office’s activities or 2) too uninterested in his actual job to actually do it

He would have remained my top pick for Trump appointee most likely to not have a law license by the end of the Trump era, but Alina Habba is the acting US Atty in NJ, so she took the top spot.

[Sarcastr0]

Check the journals for articles about how bad Covid is/how worthwhile the vaccine is.

Pulmonology makes me wonder if that's how it got on the Admin's persecution radar.

[LawTalkingGuy]

I’m sure it’s Covid related, but it’s still pretty inexplicable that this particular admin official knows and cares about this. Would be much less surprising (and more concerning) if it was from HHS or even someone at main justice. This is just baffling to me.

[Brett Bellmore]

I've never denied that the vaccine was worth while... For SOME people. The problem was that they were demanding that people take it who wouldn't benefit from it.

If they'd just urged older people and people with comorbidities to take it, (But I'm being redundant...) the benefit to harm ratio would have been enormously higher.

[rloquitur]

Massachusetts AG pulled a similar stunt a while back--the response was "Fuck off, fascist." I would suggest the same here.

[David Nieporent]

He would have remained my top pick for Trump appointee most likely to not have a law license by the end of the Trump era, but Alina Habba is the acting US Atty in NJ, so she took the top spot.

I know that there's an ethics issue with how she allegedly tricked someone into thinking she was her lawyer when she was actually working for the other side, and maybe that's what you're thinking of. But Habba is just an ordinary workaday lawyer unqualified for anything more complicated than a slip-and-fall case, while Martin is a partisan lunatic who hasn't practiced law in decades and instead has been in politics. I expect Martin to Giuliani his way into trouble as part of his rabid attackdogism.

[LawTalkingGuy]

Yeah I figured she has a head start. But he’s closing in fast.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

https://covid.gov has just had some massive updates with new guidance on boosters and MRNA studies.

Pretty interesting to see what happens when science is allowed to flourish.

[Bwaaah]

If you want to see how the best story-tellers in the world gussy up all their best stories, click on that link for the style of that kind of thing.

I can't say that I enjoy seeing the White House, the seat of the President of the United States, taking a place amid that caste. It looks kind of whorish. (I lean toward a more modest take.)

I mean, it surely swings a big dick. But the President? Like that? Didn't somebody once say, "Walk softly, and act as if your dick isn't so big?"

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

In that MS-13/Democrat photo op, the MS-13 gang symbology is clearly present on that guys fingers.

lmao, what a massive fucking rake the Dipshit party stepped on. I do understand that they did a similar fuck-up with George Floyd, so we can fully expect the Dim's to double down and try and oppress the truth about this wife-beating, human-trafficking, MS-13 gang banger terrorist.

[jb]

I like how Boomers think basically all tattoos are gang signs.

Please enlighten us on the MS-13 iconography and what your zooming in on a grainy picture have revealed. I'm sure one of your degrees must be on this topic.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Marijauna Leaf
Smiley face
1 cross
3 right half of a Skull (to look like a 3)

Right there on his hand.

[jb]

How nice for us that the El Salvadoran gang uses English abbreviations in their rhebus.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Do you think LatinX abbreviate "Mara Salvatrucha" differently than us Whites do?

[jb]

I think that Carita sonriente or Craneo would be weird stand-ins for the letter S.

[Magnus Pilatus, MBA, MD, JD, PhDx2]

Spanglish dude. It's a real thing.

[Frank Drackman]

They are, the "Stupid" Gang
we don't keep track of the Tattoo/Teeth Ratio for nothing, it's a great predictor

[shawn_dude]

You KNOW it's a Latino gang sign based on the white, British pipe-fitter that has one JUST LIKE IT!

And, just to be clear, to be a Boomer, you have to have been born before 1965. I know you didn't make any claims as to dates but it's very important we keep that clear...for a friend.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

Since people focus on one thing, especially when it is so clearly wrong, Abrego Garcia is getting a lot of attention.

Nonetheless, we should not ignore the many other red flags (including a citizen wrongly detained into he was released) involved in Trump's deportation of allegedly scary people campaign.

He's not a one-off. The Administration's overall recklessness and intentional disrespect to basic due process and lack of human empathy [RFK Jr.'s recent remarks about autism come to mind) is appalling. The harm being caused also cannot be adequately compensated, especially for those sent to foreign prisons.

[John F. Carr]

Garcia's case is the gift that keeps on giving. Daily drama. Not much going on with the case of the lady with the umlauts or the habeas petitions that may have to be filed in a red state. The native-born citizen immigration lawyer who was asked to self-deport was a one-off bit of entertainment. But every day the administration has to file another document saying "f--- you judge, you can't make us bring Garcia back."

[tylertusta]

or the habeas petitions that may have to be filed in a red state

Presuming you're referring to the TdA case in DC: last I heard, habeas was filed in Texas while the ACLU is fighting to keep their class action case alive in front of Boasberg.

[LawTalkingGuy]

Elon Musk and fairly influential right-wingers like Chris Rufo have been pushing the suicidal or pathological empathy idea. Which is worrying because it goes beyond simple “trust us he’s a bad guy.” They’re trying to create a permission structure for themselves by convincing people their natural human reactions to injustice or pain aren’t just mistaken, but a form of deadly disease.

Which raises the question: beyond what has already happened, what are they giving themselves permission to do?

[Kazinski]

Deport illegals.

The voters gave them permission too.

[Mr. Bumble]

...and with 1.5 million with final orders of deportation there is a lot to do.
Next up: visa overstayers.

[JasonT20]

When the voters give the government permission to 'deport' people you know and care about without due process, will you still be so dismissive of all of this? Or if it is you being deported?

[tylertusta]

Judge Boasberg, at this evening's hearing, denied the ACLU's latest attempt to get a new class-wide TRO for TdA members detained in Texas. The ACLU came to Judge Boasberg asking for a new TRO since the administration was allegedly about to deport another batch of TdA members out of Texas.

For the first time in this sordid ordeal Judge Boasberg asked the question "Am I allowed to do what you're asking?" And for the first time in this farce he told the ACLU he couldn't do what they asked.

So I guess he found his limits. It only took a trip to SCOTUS for him to find them, but he found them nonetheless.

[David Nieporent]

So you're saying that unlike the Trump administration, he changed his stance in response to a Supreme Court ruling? (SCOTUS had to grant an emergency stay tonight because Trump was trying to defy SCOTUS's order and ship people out of the country based on the fake AEA argument w/o a hearing.)

[SRG2]

The DoJ is trying to get the taxpayers to pay Trump's damages bill.

Justice Department wants to step in for Trump in E. Jean Carroll appeal

The Justice Department asserts that Mr. Trump was acting in his official capacity as president when he made the allegedly defamatory statements about Carroll in 2019, and therefore the court is required to substitute the United States for Mr. Trump in the case.

The cultists will perhaps defend this by insisting that everything Trump did when president he did as president. I doubt any of them will disagree with the DoJ regardless of the evident preposterousness of the claim.

[Brett Bellmore]

Wow. When you've got Rick Hasen agreeing that conservatives have a valid complaint, you've REALLY gone over the line!

Wisconsin Supreme Court on 4-3 Ideological Vote Upholds Governor Evers’ Crazy Rewriting of State Law to Protect School Funding for 402 Years Instead of 2 Years

[Sarcastr0]

Brett, you used to be formalistic to a fault. That this offends you shows how since Trump you've lost most of your principles.

Yes, this is wacky as hell. It's also legal, even to my tendingly functionalist self.
The wisconstitution is incredibly specific about what the line item veto can't do and therefore if you use one of the remaining loopholes it's pretty hard to argue it's not permitted

"Every bill which shall have passed the legislature shall, before it becomes a law, be presented to the governor.
If the governor approves and signs the bill, the bill shall become law. Appropriation bills may be approved in whole or in part by the governor, and the part approved shall become law.
In approving an appropriation bill in part, the governor may not create a new word by rejecting individual letters in the words of the enrolled bill, and may not create a new sentence by combining parts of 2 or more sentences of the enrolled bill."

[Magister]

Wisconsin voters twice limited the partial veto power: first to forbid creating new words by striking individual letters, but left the power to strike digits; second to forbid combining separate sentences to create a new sentence. The partial veto in question did not violate either of those limitations. 402 years sounds stupid, but it's unlikely to survive the next biennial budget, so it has much lesser effect. The linked opinion of the Wisconsin Supreme Court sounds right to me, but I would be curious for other opinions if there are any Wisconsin lawyers commenting here. The dissent starts off with histrionics about partial veto powers that were long removed, and then writes an emotional appeal about what the law should be.

When questions of the federal Second Amendment come up, Brett Bellmore is quick to announce that anyone who doesn't like it is free to amend the constitution, happy in the knowledge that this is never going to happen (while lamenting that his own policy preferences cannot be enacted by constitutional amendment). Wisconsin allows constitutional amendments to proceed by being passed identically by successive legislatures and then being approved by voters. The still gerrymandered Wisconsin legislature can achieve the first easily enough for Republican objectives, and just needs to come up with an attractive enough amendment that voters don't reject it (or spend enormous amounts of dark money to mislead enough voters), and this has been achieved repeatedly in Wisconsin (sometimes to drive conservative turnout).

[Bwaaah]

Judges lost in their own rabbit hole, content with interpretations of law that dissolve all meaning. A sane, reasonable judiciary is our only line against the unbounded wants of executives and partisan legislatures. Wisconsin has lost any such judicial line of sanity, its judiciary content to contemplate its own navel in a morass of whateverness.

This is a great example of people who are truly lost in their own bullshit, far beyond the fulcrum of the slippery slope they've been greasing for so long. It's easy for any outsider to immediately see the wrongfulness of it; the unreasonableness of it. And yet, there they are with a "legal opinion" that justifies it (in their own minds, and in Sarcastr0's). Truly the brilliant work of losers.

It's also indicative of the permissiveness of a greater public that has lost regard not just for the letter of the law, but the spirit of it too. Winner takes all; rules be damned. My side today. Their side tomorrow. Nonsense forever.

[SRG2]

SC orders suspension of deportation of detainees, 7-2, naturally.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/041925zr_c18e.pdf

We can have fun speculating what the Freislerian Thomalito's argument will be. Possibly standing - AARP? - or decisions to deport, under the AEA are not reviewable, FYTW, etc.

[A Japanese Student]

A. A. R. P. is an individual, not an association.

I think the most reasonable dissent would be that the court lacks appellate jurisdiction, since no court has issued an appealable order to my knowledge. But I think the Court has power to protect its jurisdiction that will soon arrive, even before an appeal is filed.