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Fourth Circuit Declines Government's Request to Stay District Court Order in Abrego Garcia Case
From today's Fourth Circuit opinion in Abrego Garcia v. Noem, written by Judge J. Harvie Wilkinson and joined by Judges Robert King and Stephanie Thacker:
Upon review of the government's motion, the court denies the motion for an emergency stay pending appeal and for a writ of mandamus. The relief the government is requesting is both extraordinary and premature. While we fully respect the Executive's robust assertion of its Article II powers, we shall not micromanage the efforts of a fine district judge attempting to implement the Supreme Court's recent decision.
It is difficult in some cases to get to the very heart of the matter. But in this case, it is not hard at all. The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process that is the foundation of our constitutional order. Further, it claims in essence that because it has rid itself of custody that there is nothing that can be done.
This should be shocking not only to judges, but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear.
The government asserts that Abrego Garcia is a terrorist and a member of MS-13. Perhaps, but perhaps not. Regardless, he is still entitled to due process. If the government is confident of its position, it should be assured that position will prevail in proceedings to terminate the withholding of removal order. See 8 C.F.R. § 208.24(f) (requiring that the government prove "by a preponderance of evidence" that the alien is no longer entitled to a withholding of removal). Moreover, the government has conceded that Abrego Garcia was wrongly or "mistakenly" deported. Why then should it not make what was wrong, right?
The Supreme Court's decision remains, as always, our guidepost. That decision rightly requires the lower federal courts to give "due regard for the deference owed to the Executive Branch in the conduct of foreign affairs." Noem v. Abrego Garcia (U.S. Apr. 10, 2025); see also United States v. Curtiss-Wright Exp. Corp. (1936). That would allow sensitive diplomatic negotiations to be removed from public view. It would recognize as well that the "facilitation" of Abrego Garcia's return leaves the Executive Branch with options in the execution to which the courts in accordance with the Supreme Court's decision should extend a genuine deference. That decision struck a balance that does not permit lower courts to leave Article II by the wayside.
The Supreme Court's decision does not, however, allow the government to do essentially nothing. It requires the government "to 'facilitate' Abrego Garcia's release from custody in El Salvador and to ensure that his case is handled as it would have been had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador." "Facilitate" is an active verb. It requires that steps be taken as the Supreme Court has made perfectly clear. See Abrego Garcia ("[T]he Government should be prepared to share what it can concerning the steps it has taken and the prospect of further steps."). The plain and active meaning of the word cannot be diluted by its constriction, as the government would have it, to a narrow term of art. We are not bound in this context by a definition crafted by an administrative agency and contained in a mere policy directive. Cf. Loper Bright Enters. v. Raimondo (2024). Thus, the government's argument that all it must do is "remove any domestic barriers to [Abrego Garcia's] return" is not well taken in light of the Supreme Court's command that the government facilitate Abrego Garcia's release from custody in El Salvador.
"Facilitation" does not permit the admittedly erroneous deportation of an individual to the one country's prisons that the withholding order forbids and, further, to do so in disregard of a court order that the government not so subtly spurns. "Facilitation" does not sanction the abrogation of habeas corpus through the transfer of custody to foreign detention centers in the manner attempted here. Allowing all this would "facilitate" foreign detention more than it would domestic return. It would reduce the rule of law to lawlessness and tarnish the very values for which Americans of diverse views and persuasions have always stood.
The government is obviously frustrated and displeased with the rulings of the court. Let one thing be clear. Court rulings are not above criticism. Criticism keeps us on our toes and helps us do a better job. See Cooper v. Aaron (1958) (Frankfurter, J., concurring) ("Criticism need not be stilled. Active obstruction or defiance is barred."). Court rulings can overstep, and they can further intrude upon the prerogatives of other branches. Courts thus speak with the knowledge of their imperfections but also with a sense that they instill a fidelity to law that would be sorely missed in their absence.
"Energy in the [E]xecutive" is much to be respected. Federalist No. 70. It can rescue government from its lassitude and recalibrate imbalances too long left unexamined. The knowledge that executive energy is a perishable quality understandably breeds impatience with the courts. Courts, in turn, are frequently attuned to caution and are often uneasy with the Executive Branch's breakneck pace.
And the differences do not end there. The Executive is inherently focused upon ends; the Judiciary much more so upon means. Ends are bestowed on the Executive by electoral outcomes. Means are entrusted to all of government, but most especially to the Judiciary by the Constitution itself.
The Executive possesses enormous powers to prosecute and to deport, but with powers come restraints. If today the Executive claims the right to deport without due process and in disregard of court orders, what assurance will there be tomorrow that it will not deport American citizens and then disclaim responsibility to bring them home? {See, e.g., Michelle Stoddart, 'Homegrowns are Next': Trump Doubles Down on Sending American 'Criminals' to Foreign Prisons, ABC News (Apr. 14, 2025); David Rutz, Trump Open to Sending Violent American Criminals to El Salvador Prisons, Fox News (Apr. 15, 2025).}
And what assurance shall there be that the Executive will not train its broad discretionary powers upon its political enemies? The threat, even if not the actuality, would always be present, and the Executive's obligation to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" would lose its meaning.
Today, both the United States and the El Salvadoran governments disclaim any authority and/or responsibility to return Abrego Garcia. See President Trump Participates in a Bilateral Meeting with the President of El Salvador, White House (Apr. 14, 2025). We are told that neither government has the power to act. The result will be to leave matters generally and Abrego Garcia specifically in an interminable limbo without recourse to law of any sort.
The basic differences between the branches mandate a serious effort at mutual respect. The respect that courts must accord the Executive must be reciprocated by the Executive's respect for the courts. Too often today this has not been the case, as calls for impeachment of judges for decisions the Executive disfavors and exhortations to disregard court orders sadly illustrate.
It is in this atmosphere that we are reminded of President Eisenhower's sage example. Putting his "personal opinions" aside, President Eisenhower honored his "inescapable" duty to enforce the Supreme Court's decision in Brown v. Board of Education II to desegregate schools "with all deliberate speed." Address by the President of the United States (Sept. 24, 1957). This great man expressed his unflagging belief that "[t]he very basis of our individual rights and freedoms is the certainty that the President and the Executive Branch of Government will support and [e]nsure the carrying out of the decisions of the Federal Courts." Indeed, in our late Executive's own words, "[u]nless the President did so, anarchy would result."
Now the branches come too close to grinding irrevocably against one another in a conflict that promises to diminish both. This is a losing proposition all around. The Judiciary will lose much from the constant intimations of its illegitimacy, to which by dent of custom and detachment we can only sparingly reply. The Executive will lose much from a public perception of its lawlessness and all of its attendant contagions. The Executive may succeed for a time in weakening the courts, but over time history will script the tragic gap between what was and all that might have been, and law in time will sign its epitaph.
It is, as we have noted, all too possible to see in this case an incipient crisis, but it may present an opportunity as well. We yet cling to the hope that it is not naïve to believe our good brethren in the Executive Branch perceive the rule of law as vital to the American ethos. This case presents their unique chance to vindicate that value and to summon the best that is within us while there is still time. In sum, and for the reasons foregoing, we deny the motion for the stay pending appeal and the writ of mandamus in this case….
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Wilkinson, another commie
Right; communists, famous for upholding due process and the rule of law.
What rule of law? What law is being enforced here? Not the 2019 court order, that's someone else.
Where was the trial that due process requires?
Rule of Law? Where?
This is just a bunch of judges flexing their muscles to hobble TRUMP who is the ONLY ONE who cares about America enough to DO WHAT MUST BE DONE! And if that means dispensing with FALSE constitutional rights like due process for ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, then so be it. Only TRUMP loves AMERICA enough to ignore the Constitution.
He got his due process. He's been under deportation order since 2019. He's part of a terrorist organization which voids any hold order.
He got due process. Sorry if that is not enough for you.
So much of that is untrue. But YES! Deport all illegals to hellish jails where they BELONG! Even if there’s an order to not deport to that place because courts are LEFTIST COMMIES out to replace WHITES with illegals.
Only the MS-13 and TdA gang members go to CECOT.
You are too low-information to know this basic truth, or you're a filthy liar.
"Only the MS-13 and TdA gang members go to CECOT."
And just who determines who is or is not a MS-13 or TdA gang member? What procedural safeguards are in place to avoid a mistaken determination?
Everyone in the Trump administration seems to be scared shitless of having to actually produce evidence -- and for those folks, shitlessness is mortal danger.
Don't worry, I'm sure Trump has Bondi out there manufacturing evidence to prove Abrego Garcia is a gang member, just like he wanted the Georgia Secretary of State to manufacture a few thousand votes for him.
Unfortunatly for him, the correct place to present evidence is in a court of law.
He's so smart, he had her manufacture the evidence in 2019. Bondi disguised herself as a Maryland police officer and had a few members of MS-13 stand next to him, just so the poor innocent Maryland man would look guilty.
Poe's law, dude.
Come on, say what you really mean: Volokh, another commie.
Wilkinson, appointed by Reagan, is a conservative's conservative. Trump populists have much more in common with communists, as this very case illustrates.
He's looking out for the club. LOL.
i disagree with the opinion the executive will not be diminished. If the majority of Americans wanted him, he would be back, it's as simple as that. But the last administration was so toothless with regards to immigration the last term, that we have over corrected and that over correction has vast popular support.
the only loser in this is going to be Court, which is why I'm still guessing the order gets vacated by the supreme court.
Fourth Circuit - careful, eloquent opinion upholding rule of law
VC commenters - they are commies! Voters wanted a facist! Abrego Garcia is gang banging trash that doesn't deserve due process! (notably failing to address the argument that the administrations logic could be applied to anybody).
You all really suck.
"careful, eloquent opinion"
Rambling, cliche filled, I think you mean.
they are using the word facilitate to mean bring him back, which it cannot mean.
this decision is an escalation because the court can never force the executive to bring him back. all they can do is try to nag the executive into bringing him back, which is not a basis for a legal opinion.
I get it, they don't like he didn't get due process they want him to get, but they do not have the legal ability to force the executive to give him the due process they want.
So, it is a pointless decision that will just lead a very nasty confrontation between the executive and the judiciary, which it cannot win.
So let’s say they agree with Trump here. What happens when it’s a citizen who is sent to a foreign prison?
Depends on the citizen, doesn't it?
Yes! Fascist, communist democrats and liberals do not deserve any help from the government they hate so much. Deport them all!
"So let’s say they agree with Trump here. What happens when it’s a citizen who is sent to a foreign prison?"
I don't know. What happens if the executive branch "accidentally" kills someone?
And if the judiciary has the authority to order the executive to do whatever it takes to get the guy back, imagine how much leverage that gives Bukele.
"So let’s say they agree with Trump here. What happens when it’s a citizen who is sent to a foreign prison?"
He gets impeached and removed from office.
"I get it, they don't like he didn't get due process they want him to get, but they do not have the legal ability to force the executive to give him the due process they want."
Spoken like someone who is thinking about due process for the very first time in their life and hasn't *quite* caught on why it's expressed as two words.
Yup. The Associated Press obtained and published extracts of initial El Salvador/U.S. agreements negotiated between the U.S. State Department and El Salvador’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The An AP story states:
Quotes from the memos (short for Memoranda of Agreement include:
So,
1) Several times, DoJ has confirmed in court that the U.S. government, in direct defiance of the 9-0 SCOTUS denial of a Trump request for a stay of the District Court's direction, refuses to request El Salvador to return Abrego García to U.S. authority, thus simply facilitating his release.
2) There's no forcing a foreign country to do anything. El Salvador has already documented its consent to abide by "...the United States’ decision on [the prisoners] long term disposition."
Until they take such facilitation actions easily available to them, former conservative Jennifer Rubin (OK, Mitt Romney conservative, but still) had it right yesterday:
Trump could effortlessly prove Rubin wrong by taking action already agreed to by both parties—that is facilitating disposition by returning Abrego García to the United States—returning us all to the status quo ante of the minute before they made their acknowledged administrative error.
But Trump doesn't want to do that. Because in his envy of Putin and Bukele, what he wants is to detain and jail his own political prisoners without going through all that annoying due process. And, as he was recorded saying last week and today's court decision observes...not just non-citizens.
"1) Several times, DoJ has confirmed in court that the U.S. government, in direct defiance of the 9-0 SCOTUS denial of a Trump request for a stay of the District Court's direction, refuses to request El Salvador to return Abrego García to U.S. authority, thus simply facilitating his release."
Courts have no say on foreign policy.
"2) There's no forcing a foreign country to do anything. El Salvador has already documented its consent to abide by "...the United States’ decision on [the prisoners] long term disposition."":
Courts still have no power to force foreign policy.
"Until they take such facilitation actions easily available to them, former conservative Jennifer Rubin (OK, Mitt Romney conservative, but still) had it right yesterday:"
Rubin has not gotten anything right in multiple decades.
"Trump could effortlessly prove Rubin wrong"
Who the fuck cares about Rubin? Her own family doesn't.
Courts have a lot of say on whether deportation flights and deals like this will continue to be legal under US law.
Either get Abrego Garcia out, or say goodbye to deportations to foreign prisons.
Let this terrorist go free in the US or you won't be able to send any terrorists to prison!!!
Prove people are terrorists in a court of law before you send them to prison, or you won't be able to send any terrorists to prison. You have an objection to that?
Again, courts have no say on foreign policy. Trump is humoring them so far, but if SCOTUS won't stop it, they will just ignore them.
As he should.
The legality of deporting people to foreign prisons is not foreign policy.
so we are clear is Garica is a citizen of El Salvador.
Garcia admitted to being in a gang while he was in el Salvador (though he said he was forced to be a part of one}
The territorial control policy allows the government of El Salvador to detain any El Salvadorian citizen of being a gang member.
which is why the court has no authority in this matter.
"Garcia admitted to being in a gang while he was in el Salvador (though he said he was forced to be a part of one}"
Are you talking about when he was 16 before he left the country? He said they were trying to force him to join.
Do you have a citation?
Personally I don't care if he was in a gang before he left El Salvador, even if he wanted to join, as long as he didn't follow the same path here. And by all appearances, he did not.
I've heard conservatives decrying cancel culture when some public figure is attacked over insensitive/racist/whatever comments made in the past. I agree, we shouldn't judge a 30-something by stupid things done at a young age.
Thank God I grew up before the advent of cell phone cameras and the internet.
No, this is a complete lie. He never admitted any such thing. He said that a gang — Barrio-18, not MS-13 — tried to force him, which is why he left.
First they came for the illegal aliens, and I did not object, for I was not an illegal alien.
But are you a liberal and/or democrat? RINOs count.
You really didn't get the reference, did you? I appreciate you helping make the point.
Next they came for the liberals, and I did not object, for I was not a liberal.
Then they came for the democrats, and I did not object, for I was not a democrat.
Then they came for the RINOS, and I did not object, for I was not a RINO.
Then they came for me, and there was nobody left to object.
Deport them all!
That's the spirit, Darwinnie. Wear that armband proudly as you raise your arm and salute the Leader.
I actually just want to see who agrees with me. I hate Trump and all this MAGA bullshit.
You're either Jewish, Chinese, a childless White woman, or a lazy govie.
Pretty sure you got Poe'd.
He's doing a hilarious impersonation of a MAGAhat, he's not serious.
An illegal traffic law violating suspected wife abusing suspected gang banger and Progs are after him like he's some flying unicorn farting out trillions of dollars of gold bricks and cures to cancer. Why hasn't any other country stepped forward to open their arms to this paragon of a man who will surely elevate any nation that takes him in to a sci fi Jetsons utopia?
I just don't get why the courts are hell bent on pushing in all their chips losing this argument. Nice sounding language in opinions and Resistance! kudos I guess.
Trump is unlikely to cave because his base is behind him and caving means in the end, courts will order every deported gang-banger back.
“I just don't get why the courts are hell bent on pushing in all their chips losing this argument.”
Because setting a precedent that the executive can send someone, anyone, to a foreign prison and are under no legal obligation to try and bring them back is incredibly dangerous. If they agreed with Trump here, wouldn’t they have to agree when Trump does it to a citizen? After all the citizen is now in a foreign country and the court can’t order the executive to bring them back.
The admin can do what it wants, obviously. But the courts don’t have to give it the imprimatur of legality. And legality is kind of important in maintaining political legitimacy. If he wants to kidnap citizens and send them to die in foreign prison camps, that’s on him and his supporters, the courts are under no obligation to play along.
Who is kidnapping citizens?
If any president would do that, he wouldn't listen to a court anyways. So maybe they should rule about an illegal alien MS-13 gang member subject to deportation and not rule on the absurd argument that is not present?
The argument is that courts can’t order him to work to bring people back that he sends to foreign counties. Because courts can’t interfere in how the president conducts foreign affairs. If he orders a citizen to be flown to El Salvador and pays them to imprison the citizen, what’s the legal remedy?
He has not done so. He sent a citizen of El Salvador back to El Salvador.
That’s not relevant to what the full implications of the administration’s Article II arguments are.
Their argument is "Under Article II, we can capture alien terrorists on American soil and deport them to their home countries".
Not particularly offensive, or remarkable. Seems like common sense.
That's not their argument. Possibly should've been. But no, their argument is that if they can kidnap you (yes you) and get you out of the country before a court can act, you're just permagone.
Just think when the Dems get back in power. Jan 6 rioters? El Salvador. Bondi, Bannon, Elon? El Salvador. (Well, Elon will in all liklihood already be there.) Republican Governors? El Salvador. All totally legal.
"He has not done so. He sent a citizen of El Salvador back to El Salvador."
You are on a law blog. You are expected to be able to answer simple hypotheticals in advance. Try again: if Trump has ICE agents seize a US citizen and flies him to El Salvador, what is the citizen's remedy?
(Your unwilllingness to answer says a lot, including that you expect a MAGA president for the rest of time.)
Translation: I make up shit to get myself all worked up about.
Maybe nothing. And then he gets impeached.
"You are on a law blog. You are expected to be able to answer simple hypotheticals in advance. Try again: if Trump has ICE agents seize a US citizen and flies him to El Salvador, what is the citizen's remedy?"
Sorry to disappoint you so, but I do not respond to silly hypotheticals with no basis in reality.
“Who’s talking about kidnapping US citizens?”
Mr. Trump is. He asked El Salvador to build more prisons, specifically for “home-growns.”
What do you think a “home-grown” is? And how do you think they will get into those prisons?
This is for real.
Were you concerned when Obama authorized a drone strike on a US citizen?
Asking for a friend.
Yes extremely. Courts should have intervened then too.
...and yet no courts did.
I know. That was bad. What’s your point?
The point is that these leftist judicial activists never, and I mean never rule against the left. Find me one major case where the 3 stooges voted against each other and in favor of President Trump.
Trump v. Anderson. This has been yet another episode of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
I didn't like what he did either, but what I dislike even more are courts meddling in what are clearly Article 2 powers. Can a Federal Judge order, say a Special Forces team to go down and extract him? Let's say the situation heats up in Ukraine and Russia launches a strike on a NATO base. Can a judge forbid retaliation without their or Congress's approval? This is an awfully slippery slope to go down. We really don't want the Judiciary micromanaging the Executive Branch.
We do, in fact.
No, I'd rather voters be in charge, not unelected lawyers in robes.
Presidency by plebiscite? That doesn't sound very workable.
You'd rather have Presidency by unelected judges?
This is why us Normals hate you people. Your morals and values are just so horrible and alien.
We have 3 co-equal branches. Each needs to stay in it's own lane.
They are in a sense. The executive is using its ability to use force against people and the court is using its ability to decline to give a judgment in approving of that use of force.
Yeah, courts are useless appendages like appendices. When they get inflamed they are dangerous. And then you just remove them. We don’t need courts, we have TRUMP!
“We really don't want the Judiciary micromanaging the Executive Branch.”
In certain contexts we do, and it’s actually the norm. Decisions about whether specific individuals are detained and imprisoned by the executive are actually extensively micro-managed by the courts and have been for centuries.
A criminal case is pretty much just a court micromanaging the executive determination that someone committed a crime and should be imprisoned or otherwise sanctioned.
Habeas corpus was invented, in the Magna Carta, in 1215 CE, because we wanted the judiciary to micromanage the Executive branch. That's the whole fucking point of it. To constrain the power of the King to imprison people without trial.
These Curtis Yarvin neo-Monarchist types don't just want to go back to any old monarchy. They want pre-Magna-Carta absolute monarchy.
This is an awfully slippery slope to go down.
It's not slippery. The court simply said, you have to do what you can. It's not saying you have to send a Special Forces team or anything, nor is it suggesting that it could (very much the opposite).
If there really were nothing Trump could do, he'd just explain that to the court and the case would be over. But that's not what he's doing. He's just being a bad-faith ass-wart.
You guys lap up his ass-warts, which is the main reason he acts that way. But no, Article II is not being violated. Article III is, along with the 5th Amendment.
"The court simply said, you have to do what you can. It's not saying you have to send a Special Forces team or anything, nor is it suggesting that it could (very much the opposite)."
Sending a Special Forces team to bring him back would clearly satisfy Trump's obligation under the order.
Suppose, hypothetically, that the only way that Trump could free him was to send a Special Forces team.
So the US explains this to the judge, and says that Trump has declined to send in a SF team because the cost would outweigh the benefit.
Has Trump violated the order? Or is that a matter of discretion for the judge?
That would be totally fine. Case closed. (Assuming it were true.)
"If there really were nothing Trump could do, he'd just explain that to the court and the case would be over. But that's not what he's doing. He's just being a bad-faith ass-wart."
He may yet get that opportunity if Judge Xinis issues an order to show cause why some or all of the Defendants should not be held in civil contempt. A good faith attempt to comply with a court order, as well as substantial compliance or the inability to comply, can be defenses to a civil contempt order. To avoid a finding of contempt, the accused had to make in good faith all reasonable efforts to comply with the order. United States v. Darwin Constr. Co., 873 F.2d 750, 754-755 (4th Cir. 1989).
"Substantial compliance is found where all reasonable steps have been taken to ensure compliance: inadvertent omissions are excused only if such steps were taken." Id., at 755.
Civil contempt hearings employ a burden-shifting framework. The party who moves for a civil contempt order must first prove each of these elements by clear and convincing evidence: (1) the existence of a valid court order; (2) the order was in the moving party’s "favor"; (3) a knowing violation of the terms of the order; and (4) the moving party suffered harm from the violation. Once the movant establishes these elements, the burden shifts to the accused to show good faith in making all reasonable efforts to comply with the order. A defendant who fails to meet this burden may be held in civil contempt. Consumer Fin. Prot. Bureau v. Klopp, 957 F.3d 454, 461-462 (4th Cir. 2020).
"If there really were nothing Trump could do"
... then the entire practice of deporting people to foreign prisons is unconstitutional. If deporting people to foreign prisons makes it intrinsically impossible to correct an error when someone is sent then accidentally then you can't legally do it. The US constitution doesn't allow for "ooopsie we forgot your due process rights, too late now, sucks to be you!"
Also true. Which is part of why Trump isn't making that argument. Not a big part, but a part.
He's pretty clearly making the argument that there's nothing he can do to get Abrego Garcia out of prison now that he's not in US custody.
I want judges to order the release of wrongfully incarcerated people, and generally constraining the executive.
But I don't want them conducting foreign policy, or deciding who joins the military.
If judges want people to continue to support them constraining the executive, they need to come up with a principle that convinces people the that the executive power won't be wielded by 667 unelected judges.
The judges can order that sending people to foreign prisons be stopped unless and until the Executive proves there is a way that they can do it that is consistent with the constitution and the law. If it's intrinsically impossible to guarentee due process rights and get wrongfully incarcerated people released (as the Trump administration is currently arguing), then the entire practice is unlawful. That's not foreign policy. The Executive is free to decide to negotiate the terms of such foreign prison deals in any way it wants that it consistent with the constitutional rights of prisoners. It can't negotiate a deal where there is no way to rectify an administrative error when someone is mistakenly imprisoned without due process.
The Courts should have Ordered Obama to resurrect U.S. citizens, 4 of them, which the Obama Administration acknowledged it had killed in drone strikes and then proceeded to contempt when the administration failed to demonstrate it had adequately attempted to facilitate such resurrections.
I just don't get why the courts are hell bent on pushing in all their chips losing this argument. Nice sounding language in opinions and Resistance! kudos I guess.
Because the Trump admin is flagrantly disregarding the law.
They have done no such thing.
But if courts want to immolate their credibility further, go ahead. It is not Trump's job to protect the judiciary from itself.
He can simply ignore them. There is nothing they can do to him and the people will side with Trump over them.
The Government admits it sent Abrego Garcia to El Salvador despite a judicial order prohibiting it.
In what sense is that not disregarding the law?
Ooops.
An executive branch EMPLOYEE said something. The HEAD of said branch overruled.
Um, because the U.S. locked him up in a Salvadoran prison?
He's an El Salvordan citizen. He is where he belongs.
Nonresponsive and false.
He is El Salvadoran. That is simple reality.
He is in El Salvador. That is ALSO simple reality.
How can a court order the President to order some foreign president to release one of the foreign country's citizens from a prison which their judiciary has declared legal?
The (alleged) illegal deportation is tantamount to kidnapping. I have never heard of any kidnapper who was ordered to revive a dead victim, or get them back from the family he had sold them to, and all before a trial, instead of being charged, tried, and sentenced to prison.
I thought the process for kidnapping was pretty simple:
* Investigate and find a suspect.
* Charge the suspect.
* Have a trial.
* If found guilty, impose a prison sentence.
None of that has been done. What happened to the 2019 court finding someone in contempt of court? I haven't seen any mention of that or anyone being sent to jail for that.
Oh, wait! I know! Prosecutorial discretion! Just like when Obama ordered his prosecutors to not deport any illegal immigrants who had been brought to the country as children. There was at least one court case about that, wasn't there? The court said, nuh uh, prosecutorial discretion, and a million illegal immigrants got waivers..
So where's the prosecutorial discretion here? How can the judge order the president to do something when he hasn't been tried or convicted?
Rule of Law my eye.
Its so important that we follow the letter and intent of the law and dot all our is and cross all our ts. For a nation is nothing if not for laws.........
...........
Except for the Dems several decade long demographic war on American citizens. Then you can flout letter and intent of the law all you want and de facto amnesty illegals as fast as you can. To the point where you demand Trump 'follow the rules' to directly allow you to violate them. Rules for thee but not for me. Thats the Prog motto.
Demographic war
WAKE UP WHITE PEOPLE
You finally properly capitalized the 'W' in White.
Tip of the ol' MAGA cap to you Good Chap!
They can't. But they CAN order a halt to all deportation flights to foreign prisons until the Executive makes sure the foreign government complies and guarentees such a thing will never happen again.
Great. That's not what these court decisions do.
Not yet. I think it should be the next step. At some point this is going back to SCOTUS when (not if, lol) the lower court rules that they are violating the order to facilitate his release.
Nah, they really cannot. Trump can just pardon everybody involved from the word go and flip off the courts.
As he should.
Pardoning people won't make deportation flights legal again if that's what the courts decide to do.
You really, really want a King, don't you?
IANAL, but I doubt Trump could pardon the contempt of court citations that would ensue, because those are created by judges.
What you appear to want is a contest where Trump shows that he is above the law. Can you explain why you want to live that way? Are you so sure you would never end up on his naughty list?
It's a little the way the Chapo Trap House guys always think they will get to be Stalin. Never Trotsky, Bukharin, Kirov, or any of the others who lost out.
...and who would handle the punishment? Courts have zero capacity to enforce orders.
Courts survive SOLELY because the executive decides to abide by their decisions.
Such kindness can always end.
Are you drunk?
Are you responsive?
Yes to both.
SGT, the Associated Press obtained and published extracts of initial El Salvador/U.S. agreements negotiated between the U.S. State Department and El Salvador’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The
Quotes from the memos (short for Memorandum of Agreement) is:
Note: "United States' decision." If the U.S. decision is that it wants a prisoner returned to U.S. custody, El Salvador and already agreed to abide by that decision.
Thank you for the link to the AP story. Does anyone have a link to the Memorandum of Agreement itself?
Well clearly now the judge must command President Trump to actually want the prisoner to be returned. It's clearly Article III power to dictate opinions of emotions of the Executive.
It's right there in the Constitution.
Grand, And if the person is a citizen of ES? And the President of ES said no?
He didn't receive due process? Didn't an immigration court hear his case and order him removed?
Yep.
And was confirmed on appeal.
All the due process an illegal entrant is entitled to.
A deportation order is not usually a sentence of life imprisonment is it? Why is he in CECOT?
Then his army should be focusing on getting him released in El Salvador. Not a lifetime free pass to stay in the US. Which is an approach that seems to if anything have delayed his release by turning the affair into an AntiBukale plank. He's not entitled to free permanent residence here guilty or innocent.
They're doing that. Currently Bukele is saying that he's refusing to release him because he's getting paid by the US government to hold him.
Oh, when did he say that?
His Vice President said it to Senator Van Hollen yesterday.
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/us-senator-lands-el-salvador-seeking-release-wrongly-deported-salvadoran-man-2025-04-16/
"Van Hollen, who is a member of the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said Ulloa also told him El Salvador was not releasing Abrego Garcia because the United States was paying to keep him incarcerated."
Why did you lie then?
Van Hollen is not an unbiased source. Do we have independent verification the VP said that?
Bob, the Associated Press obtained and published extracts of initial El Salvador/U.S. agreements negotiated between the U.S. State Department and El Salvador’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs. An AP story states:
Quotes from the El Salvador/U.S. memos (short for Memoranda of Agreement) include:
Oh? I know a guy that told me that another guy in El Salvador said that they were keeping him because they wanted to keep him. What to do with our dueling powerful evidence here?
How about the courts do some discovery or something and find out if we are paying El Salvador to hold him and why exactly the don't want to release him then.
He has not been convicted of any crime in El Salvador either.
They have no power over foreign policy. Foreign policy decisions do not have to be approved by courts nor will the executive spend a moment humoring the request.
So can it be a “foreign policy decision” to round up citizens and send them to a foreign extermination camp? And a court can’t say that’s illegal? Or order the executive to bring them back?
Sure but whether we allow the executive to ship people to prisons in other countries is not "foreign policy", it's domestic criminal law.
The Supreme COurt is within it's rights to stop deportation flights unless the Executive can prove that they can uphold the rule of law and that any such deals with foreign governments include the ability to get prisoners returned if they are sent there in error.
That's not interfering in foreign policy. That's telling these executive "these are the conditions under which you can ship someone to a foreign prison, either adhere to them or no more deportation flights".
That's telling these executive "these are the conditions under which you can ship someone to a foreign prison..."
Why would we think Trump will honor conditions? This very case involves someone being to a foreign prison despite conditions prohibiting it.
Why would we think Trump will honor conditions?
Because if he doesn't then the courts will halt all deportations to foreign prisons.
Basically, Trump will have to decide if he values the ability to continue sending criminal aliens to foreign prisons more than he values not admitting he made a mistake.
"So can it be a “foreign policy decision” to round up citizens"
...he is not a citizen.
Van Hollen is a moron.
Garcia is an El Salvadoran citizen. We are not paying them to keep their own citizen.
Yes, actually we are. He was shipped there on a flight of prisoners who were being sent to be housed by El Salvador under that deal. Trump bent the rules so that it would include Ms-13 and not just Tren de Aragua, obviously.
No, we are not. ES does what they wish ES citizens. We are not party to that and have no control over it. Any more than we can force China to close their concentration camps and to stop killing Uyghurs.
Because his own government put him there. Because he is their citizen. Their rules. Their prison.
There are millions of prisoners around the world who probably don't belong in prison. Are US courts going to order the President to spring them from prison too?
Incorrect. He's there because we sent him there under a deal with the government of El Salvador where they are supposed to house criminal illegal alien gang members for us. We're paying them $25,000 per head.
He hasn't been convicted of anything in El Salvador. Why would he be? He hasn't lived there for 14 years.
We're paying the Salvadorans to house Venezualans. What they do with their citizens is up to them.
Oh, because the Trump administration would never use that deal to house a Salvadorean who is supposedly in MS-13, right?
You've provided no evidence of your claim.
Real evidence, not the claim of a political hack who seems to think an illegal is a "constituent", when he does not remotely qualify as one by definition.
Senator Van Hollen reported that he was told by the Vice President of El Salvador yesterday that they aren't releasing Abrego Garcia because they are being paid by the US to hold him. He was sent there on a flight full of convicted criminal gang members under a deal where El Salvador will house criminal aliens for us.
It seems like someone just did a cursory search for anyone who turned up in the system as belonging to MS-13 and rounded them up and shipped them to prison without bothering to check if they actually had criminal convictions. Hence the "administrative error".
Having a criminal conviction isn't a requirement for being in a gang.
HTH
Having admissible evidence that someone is in a gang a requirement for treating someone as if he is in a gang. HTH.
Having a criminal conviction is a requirement for putting someone in prison.
The US did not put him in prison. ES did.
And, David, there was an immigration court hearing and appeal that both said he was MS-13.
Amber Duke explains this in pretty good detail. He wasn't afraid of being sent back because of MS-13, he was worried because the government was after him for being part of MS-13. Watch the Free Media video below:
https://youtu.be/81s7qkfwTZo?si=LYGUTV8mhlx1Tq0e&t=293
Amber Duke's apparently a mind reader. She even knows stuff that isn't in any publicly available court document at all. Amazing.
Excellent, well-thought rebuttal on your part.
If you stopped using the Cyrillic Alphabet in your handle, it would make it less obvious that you are a Russian disinfo op. Just a word of advice.
Did Van Hollen tell you that?
Way to not know it's Ukrainian.
You're not a bright lightbulb.
Oh, and eat my dick while you're at it.
A later judge issued a protection order, a "withholding from removal".
Even if it was the case that the deportation order had not been stayed, it would not justify his imprisonment in CECOT. The correct course of action for the Trump administration would have been to contest the withholding of removal on the grounds that El Salvador is now safe to return to and then deport him to freedom in El Salvador. That's not what they did. They put him in a prison in El Salvador for criminal gang members, even though he was never convicted of any gang related activity. They are still, apparently, paying the government of El Salvador to keep him in prison for us.
And not only that, but they refused to tell his family or his lawyers where he was until a court ordered him to. And not only that but they are not allowing him any contact with his family or lawyers. He has had no contact with the outside world since his imprisonment in CECOT. He probably does not know that his wife and a US senator are trying to get him out.
Trump did not put him in CECOT. El Salvador did.
Untrue. He has not been convicted of any crime in El Salvador either. He's there because the Trump administration specifically put him on a flight of supposedly convicted gang members to El Salvador, under a deal in which they are being paid by us to house criminal illegal aliens. Everyone on the flight was being transferred into prison in El Salvador.
It's the new Guantanamo Bay, but with more modern conveniences.
It's more complicated than that. Here's a good summary:
https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/abrego-garcia-and-ms-13--what-do-we-know
tl;dr: the initial finding that he was MS13 was based on an unsubstantiated claim. He could legally be removed to any other country in the world except El Salvador.
An immigration judge ---- or, in other words, an executive branch employee --- is unable to override the executive.
Plus, as a member of a terrorist organization, holding orders are immaterial.
The executive — or, in other words, an employee of the federal government — is unable to override the law.
Why do we have immigration judges if they must approve the decision of the Attorney General (or DHS, ICE, etc.)?
Why do MAGA *want* to live under a King?
The executive recited an oath to faithfully execute the constitution and the laws of the US. Under the constitution, the courts get to decide what the law allows the President to do. And they can certainly order executive branch employees to try to do something.
You seem to confuse "Try to do this" with "Try to do this well"
Courts can mandate the first. Cannot mandate the second.
Trump has abided, completely, with the order. Should not have, but he did.
An immigration court found him removable. It ordered him not to be removed to El Salvador. So of course Trump did the one thing he was not legally allowed to do.
*sniff*.
Why can't illegal gang bangers who beat their wives get a break?
Remember, these same people support the actual J6 traitors and expect there to be sympathy for those people. Biden should've sent them to El Salvador.
Remember, David here supported leaving citizens in solitary for times that exceed the threshold of war crimes and sentencing them to wildly disproportionate sentences...but will fight to the death for the protection of a wife-beating, gang member, and possible human trafficker illegal.
J. Harvie Wilkinson is 80 and has been a judge over 40 years. Who says dinosaurs went extinct.
I'll repeat my suggestion here that I left in a previous thread. The courts can order a halt to all deportation flights to foreign prisons unless and until the Executive provides concrete assurances that the due process rights of deportees shall be guarenteed, including once they are transferred into foreign custody. If deportees have committed no crime in the destination country and they are being held based on a supposed crime under US law, then they must be permitted the due process to contest their imprisonment under US law. The US has not charged Abrego Garcia with any crime, much less tried him for it. Neither has El Salvador. If, as the Trump administration is arguing, once deportees are transferred into foreign custody, the government cannot guarentee their ability to contest their detention , then their due process rights cannot be assured. If so, then the entire regime of putting people into foreign prisons violates habeas corpus and the US constitution and should be declared unlawful.
The Supreme Court should immediately issue an injunction barring further deportation flights unless that administration not only secures the release of any prisoners sent there by the US without due process, but provides assurances that the terms of future deportation arrangement guarentee that the due process rights of future deportees will be upheld, including once they are transferred into the foreign governments custody. Any treaty or arrangement in which the rights of such prisoners cannot be assured, is unconstitutional.
So, the judiciary should violate executive rights?
Interesting.
Trump should not tell them to go fuck themselves...why?
The courts are far over their skis right now. They are going well beyond what they have the power to do.
There is no such thing as "executive rights."
The executive doesn't have a baked in right to ship people to foreign prisons. That power only exists as long as the courts say it is legal and constitutional.
Might want to look into who controls foreign policy.
Hint: Not courts.
“We yet cling to the hope that it is not naïve to believe our good brethren in the Executive Branch perceive the rule of law as vital to the American ethos.“
Yep, that is naive indeed. Any remaining inkling that the members of the executive branch aren’t pure evil has long since evaporated.
Yes, that is certainly naive. You can see here that many VC commenters don't believe in that rule of law nonsense. Trump! Trump! Trump!
And if you wander the blawgosphere, you can see any number of lawprofs who also don't go for that rule of law stuff. Blackman, Bernstein, Reynolds, Althouse.
The rule of law is a convenience for when it is. The law may not be malleable, but the courts definitely are.
The law is infinitely malleable. Courts get to say it is whatever they want it to be. It’s only fair that TRUMP gets to also. He is THE EXECUTIVE and even this terrible Supreme Court said he is IMMUNE.
As if on cue, Blackman weighs in to denounce Wilkinson's interference with Trump!
The theory that if the executive branch kidnaps someone off the street and ships him to a foreign prison without a trial, then there is nothing a court can do about it because to judicially order the executive to bring him back would constitute improper judicial control over how the executive deals with a foreign sovereign, has got to be the single most dangerous legal theory to ever be advanced by the government in my lifetime. There is nothing in that theory that is inherently limited to non-citizens or alleged criminals. If the government shipped a citizen it doesn't like to a foreign prison, it could just as easily argue that a court cannot do anything about it because no court can tell the executive to make demands of a foreign sovereign, even if the prisoner is a US citizen. The judges who see the danger of this theory and are pushing back are American patriots. And if the constitution does indeed contain a loophole that enables our government to pay a foreign government to detain people in violation of our laws and claim that the whole situation is beyond the reach of courts, then it is imperative that we close that loophole immediately by amending the constitution. No reasonable person wants the government to have unchecked power to deport and imprison whomever it chooses because eventually that power will be wielded by a president who you don't favor.
Yes. This is why the entire practice of shipping prisoners to foreign prisons should be declared unconstitutional. By the Trump administrations own argument, once in foreign custody there's nothing you can to assure that habeas corpus rights are upheld. If they are serious about that, then the entire practice has to end. No more deportations to foreign prisons. They themselves have admitted that they inherently violate habeas corpus.
Unless, you know, they prove that they CAN provide habeas corpus rights, by getting prisoners who were shipped to El Salvador out of custody at their request.
Trump will have two choices:
A. Get Abrego Garcia out of prison (and anyone else unlawfully detained)
B. Say goodbye to deportation flights to foreign prisons.
C. Tell the courts to pound sand.
You think the air traffic controllers are going to ignore SCOTUS too ?
You think that the air traffic controllers would ignore the military? They would find themselves out of jobs.
You think Trump's going to take that this far? He must really have a huge grudge against this rando Hispanic migrant - willing to basically stage a coup to seize control of the air traffic control system so he can keep doing deportation flights, rather than just get the guy released from CECOT.
You know he can just use military flights.
Well, then we would really be in a constitutional crisis. Like I said. He could, you know, just get the guy released from CECOT and all this would go away.
Then he'd get order after order to get everyone released.
No just the ones who aren't convicted of anything.
The courts could stand down and stop exceeding their authority.
If they will not, Trump is required to enforce executive power.
You think the military will ignore the Supreme Court? The President's word is law? (Verbum presidentis est suprema lex.)
Yes, they will. SCOTUS has no control over the military. If they are concerned, again, Trump can just issue blanket pardons for everybody involved.
Roberts has to be the worst Chief Justice in our history.
"The theory that if the executive branch kidnaps someone off the street and ships him to a foreign prison without a trial, then there is nothing a court can do about it because to judicially order the executive to bring him back would constitute improper judicial control over how the executive deals with a foreign sovereign, has got to be the single most dangerous legal theory to ever be advanced by the government in my lifetime."
Bears repeating.
I'm still astounded that commenters on a libertarian blog are cheering for unlimited government power to "disappear" those who are "undesirable". Or I would be if I hadn't been reading the comments here for the last 20 years or so.
The facts that Garcia is not a citizen, and has had evidence-free accusations lodged against him are orthogonal to the lawless way this whole thing has played out. These are non-arguments. I expect better from the commenters here (at least the ones I haven't muted yet)
As I commented elsewhere, this is prosecutorial discretion in the same manner as letting Obama tell his prosecutors to not deport illegal immigrant families with young children, and letting millions of illegal immigrants stay illegally.
The decision to investigate and prosecute whoever kidnapped Garcia is up to the executive branch, not the judicial branch. This is the Rule of Law so many lawyers brag about and quibble over. It's supposed to be consistent and predictable.
If Trump doesn't want to prosecute one case, how is that different from Obama not wanting to prosecute millions of cases?
That might make sense if the writ of habeas corpus has been suspended. Has it?
How does that apply to foreign nationals in prison in their own country?
The fact that Garcia... has had evidence-free accusations lodged against him is orthogonal to the lawless way this whole thing has played out.
Not orthogonal. Central.
"We just found out Hillary Clinton has been a member of Al Queda all along. But the evidence is all classified. Anyway, she's in a better place now. El Salvador."
As this arises from the "unitary executive" theory, I'd argue that "unitary executive" is even more dangerous given than it allows for this and many other abuses of executive authority.
An opinion that tries to be memorable and humble, but ultimately fails on both counts. It couches judicial overreach by upholding a "fine" judge simply trying to order the President to do what it clearly does not have the power to do.
This refrain of "due process" was too much from posters here, but unthinkable coming from a three judge panel of a US Court of Appeals. HE HAD all of the due process required for an illegal immigrant.
Maybe Trump gets to replace him on the Fourth Circuit. He is getting old and used to pretend to be a conservative.
I'm guessing that at this point, unless the Angel of Death lends a hand, Wilkinson will not leave office in the next four years.
It is abundantly clear to anyone paying the slightest bit of attention that if Trump told Bukele "We're bringing him back, stay out of the way." it would be a done deal.
The notion that "the President clearly does not have the power to do this" is absolute nonsense. And if you can't see that, you need to get your bullshit calibration adjusted.
.
I phrased it poorly. The court does not have the power to demand that the President make such a request to a foreign government. Sure Trump could get him back if he wants. He doesn't want and no court will make him. They need to stay in their proper lane.
But instead, they are just pushing for an Andrew Jackson or Abraham Lincoln moment.
And if he sends a citizen there and he doesn’t “want” to get him back, then what?
Then it is up to prosecutors to investigate, find a suspect, and bring him to trial. And if Trump doesn't want his prosecutors to do that, it is the same prosecutorial discretion that Obama followed, and the courts endorsed, when he let millions of illegal immigrants stay because they had young children.
So mad at Obama he endorses disappearing his own(?) country's citizens.
Go fondle your Pinochet doll; you're a bad America.
Pinochet killed fewer civilians than communists did, if you want to get all consequentialist. If all you want to do is make up silly insults, that's a pretty poor one. If you actually had a point, it got lost somewhere and you probably ought to go look for it.
In Chile? I'd like to see some evidence for that. (But it does show your affinity for dictators.)
exactly,
however, I don't think the chief justice Roberts ever the intuitionalist would allow it to happen. I don't think he wants the confrontation to or the spectacle of executive rightly refusing to submit to depositions, my sense is, and could I be wrong, been wrong before, is that he nips this in the bud somehow.
How can the president demand the leader of another country send one of their citizens to the US? Does that mean Putin and Xi can demand US citizens be sent to their countries?
Think about what you're asking, it has implications.
The same way the president can demand the leader of another country send an American citizen to the US.
Yes, of course. Anyone can demand anything.
"The same way the president can demand the leader of another country send an American citizen to the US."
...Garcia is not a U.S citizen.
One of these things is not like the other. (Hint, involves large armies and nuclear weapons.)
Trump need only (sincerely) ask, no demand needed.
...and why should he?
The court is in the wrong.
In the absence of a court order, Trump should still ask. Because his administration screwed up and didn't follow the law. Some folks think the executive should actually follow the law. I like living where the government doesn't just pull shite out of thin air because they feel they can get away with it.
I'd quote the Sir Thomas More line but it's recently been done several times in these pages already.
He did ask. Bukele said no. Process is over and order went along with, though he should not have out of principle.
Not Trump's requirement to do so and he should refuse simply on principle.
He had zero due process. How can that be enough?
If you're talking about Abrego-Garcia, he had lots of process. He had a hearing with an immigration judge who ordered him deported.
That's pretty good process, but then he also got an appeal with an immigration appeals court. They also confirmed that he should be deported.
That's way more than zero. How much more you want?
He had due process that ordered he not be deported to El Salvador. If the U.S. wanted the outcome of that due process to be changed, they needed to do that through further due process.
You can't rationally claim reversing something gained through due process, without due process, is due process.
MG claimed he had zero due process. Blatantly untrue and I called it out. He had two hearings that resulted in an order of deportation.
He got an exemption for being sent to El Salvador. So call Pres. Bukele and demand he send him to Guatemala. He can't legally send him here. (Cf. the order of deportation.)
Or send an amicus brief to Judge McElroy letting her know you want Abrego Garcia sent to Guatemala.
Still digging that hole deeper? He had zero due process to the action currently in dispute. And I'm not sure why you think an amicus brief is relevant to anything. You just like the sound of the term?
Why not just follow the court order to facilitate Abrego Garcia's return to U.S. custody (something El Salvador has already agreed to, in writing, if the U.S. so directs), returning the the status quo ante existing the instant before the U.S. went rogue on the case?
Then, provide due process to legally attempt whatever you're trying for. This might be to successfully overturn the previous judicial action prohibiting deportation to El Salvador. Or let you deport him to a 3rd country like Guatemala (some complications to that, but who knows?).
But you can't rationally claim reversing something gained through due process, without due process, is due process.
When you have a deportation order, you do get MORE due process before you are deported.
Your due process has been done and is now over.
The moral and cognitive limitations of the right-wing are in full display here. Once you have decided - on the basis of unproven and untested claims from the regime - that Garcia is an MS-13 gang banger - then fuck the constitution, notwithstanding the clear text of 5A. Even on the narrowest "originalist" definition of "due process" Garcia did not receive it. But you lot believe in the regime and not the law.
Prosecutorial discretion. Have you heard of it? It goes right along with the government having a monopoly on criminal prosecution. Judges approve. Rule of Law and all that.
Garcia's removal was the *opposite* of prosecutorial discretion...
Yes. Now apply prosecutorial discretion to whoever disobeyed that court order. Oh wait. That was a different court in 2019, right? Where does this court enter the picture ordering the President to order his prosecutor to investigate the violation of that 2019 court order?
You lawyers crow about Rule of Law as if it were not interpreted by Men. This is what results.
You're so angry/drunk your losing coherence.
Not responsive, as your buddy says.
I'm having a trouble making out what your point is. If and when a court finds someone guilty of criminal contempt, it will be up to law enforcement to take said someone into custody. If law enforcement refuses to do so, that will also not be prosecutorial discretion. And ignoring a court order is not "interpretation."
The court trying to tell the president how to conduct foreign affairs is not the same one with the violated 2019 court order, is it? What's your point?
I'm saying that this court, not the 2019 court, is trying to tell the president how to conduct foreign affairs, while the actual crime is kidnapping. That crime requires a prosecutor. Prosecutors have discretion, exactly the same discretion Obama used to defer prosecution of millions of illegals because they had small children.
That's not a hard chain of logic, except for those who have TDS.
TDS? You can attack the message or the messenger, choosing the latter typically means an inability to do the former.
Of course the court is not trying to tell Trump how to conduct foreign affairs, that is a fig leaf that his loyal followers glom onto as talking points. In fact the court is telling Trump that he has to follow American law concerning conduct here in these United States. It is not as if the court just decided to butt into his business, rather it's because he violated a court order. And now he is playing the fool.
I've always poo-poo'd the whole Russian disinformation meme as over-wrought. But if anything was going to make me consider changing my mind, it would be the vehemence and consistency of emanations coming from some of the (sudden very large number of) newbies here. This is, or at least was, a law blog where legal ramifications and technicalities are discussed. Things like due process are considered important by most of the sane folks who inhabit here. Folks like yourself however don't bother with substance, your "arguments" are based on feels and you don't (or can't) engage with the actual legal issues. You guys are all trying to see who can be the loudest knucklehead in the room and this doesn't impress anyone with an IQ above room temperature.
You're ether a troll** being paid to pollute the conversation or you have a 13 year old's ability to think and respond in any intelligent way. I will leave for you to decide which I think is worse.
There's a lot more to his case than anyone here at Reason or in the media at large will mention.
https://youtu.be/81s7qkfwTZo?si=LYGUTV8mhlx1Tq0e&t=293
The immigration judge found he was a member of MS 13 and he did not contest that finding!!! This is an established fact.
It was a bond hearing not a criminal trial.
So? Deportations don't require criminal convictions.
Deportations into foreign prisons do.
We sent him home. His home can do whatever they want with him.
Just because they have a darker skin color does not mean the leadership of El Salvador must do whatever white folks say.
Heil Hitler.
Don't you mean Heil Roosevelt? He sent the Jews home.
You're the one convinced whites are superior and all darker skinned folks must do as we command.
lol
He did not
He did.
The judge did. The appeal did as well. You can keep lying, though.
There was a bond hearing, at which the judge found that the defendant failed to refute the government's evidence of gang membership and prove he wouldn't be a danger. That is not a finding that he is a gang member. A bond hearing is not a merits determination. Like, when a J6er was arrested and sought bail, and the judge said, "The defendant has failed to refute the prosecution's evidence that he tried to overthrow the government and thus presents a danger to the country," that is not a finding of guilt. They still had to hold a trial if they wanted to punish the J6er.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/attorney-general-bondis-claim-that-courts-have-ruled-that-abrego-garcia-is-a-member-of-ms-13/
Wrong.
This was at a bond hearing, where the standard of proof is much lower.
In the current case, Judge Xinis states that the government has presented no evidence of MS–13 membership, that the "informant" they had for the bond hearing made statements contrary to fact, and that the government seems to be abandoning any attempt to show that he is a gang member.
Your position is especially curious given the importance MAGA attaches to civil vs criminal findings of sexual assault.
He was found to be a member of MS-13. All evidence presented to date verifies it. He is also a wife beater and Biden and Wray had him freed from a human trafficking investigation.
Keep defending him. Go ahead.
And Garcia should sue for civil rights violations. Officials understand personal pocketbook impact.
The surpreme court may even scale back qualified immunity.
Dems should find some face saving way out of this. Trump will bring Garcia back in an orange jumpsuit and handcuffs and dump him on the lawn of Van Hollen, or some vulnerable swing state Democrat.
"See I brought him back because the crazy corrupt democrat courts told me too." By the end of it, Dems will be begging to redeport Garcia, or he'll end up shot in a gang shooting.
Your terms are acceptable.
Yes, I'm eager to see the US government try to prove he's a criminal gang member in a US court. Which is what they should have done in the first place. Let's do it.
Do they have to? No. He's admitted he has been here illegally. He knowingly violated immigration law. He didn't immediately come here for asylum, no, he's been using every sleazy tactic to try and stay here ex post facto.
I am laughing at everyone lapping up his "but, but, but..." defense.
If they want to contest the "witholding from removal" order and then deport him to freedom in El Salvador, I'm fine with that too.
The problem is they shipped him to a prison under a deal where El Salvador is supposed to house convicted criminals for us, without actually bothering to get a conviction.
We pay to house Venezuelan thugs because Maduro won't take them.
El Salvador does what they feel best with their citizenry.
Kind of like Guantanamo Bay.
They only need to prove he's deportable, which they already have.
They can put him on a plane to Guatemala if they want. All they need is a country to accept him. Guatemala can them send him back to El Salvador.
They can put him on a plane to Guatemala if they want
And yet they did not and have not.
Because a court would order him back
"Garcia should sue for civil rights violations"
He cannot effectively do so.. SCOTUS would have to reverse decades of cases trimming back Bevins. Even Roberts would choke at doing that.
And given this case, I am quite sure a majority would. The same 5 or 6 that handed down the order two weeks ago.
I doubt that. The right to sue federal officials for damages for deprivation of constitutional rights has been whittled back so as not to apply to anyone whose first name is not Webster or whose last name is not Bivins.
Like a blind hog finding an acorn, Bob from Ohio gets something right.
Well, let them go on record rejecting suits for federal violations. Let's know who's responsible for this legal gap in rights.
A suit for damages (in state court if federal courts are unavailable) against the people who kidnapped Garcia, would be a more appropriate response to the situation than an injunction requiring the U. S. to conduct diplomacy in a certain way.
WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE GANG BANGING WIFE BEATER?!?!?!?!
Ah, yes, I learn so much on Volokh about the Bad Person Exception to the Constitution.
That's a rather tendentious way to describe Donald Trump. Not really inaccurate, but tendentious.
Sorry, left out LIKELY HUMAN TRAFFICKER to boot.
Y'all pick winners.
What civil rights were violated?
He is not, you know, a citizen. He was to be deported years ago.
But not to El Salvador. That was a specific limitation.
That was a limitation in 2019. Those reasons are not valid anymore.
When, by whom, and according to what procedures was that 2019 limitation ever set aside, Roger S?
It was obsoleted by events. This case could go up to Scotus a couple of more times, but Garcia still has no right to stay in the USA.
Longstanding judicial precedent says that everyone physically present in the US is entitled to due process, whether they are here legally or not. Try again. And they didn't just deport him. They sent him to a prison for terrorists without a conviction.
They sent him to ES. ES puts their citizens where they wish.
Courts are taking a stand here for the same reason Hugh Thompson intervened at My Lai. You don’t actually have to just let bad things happen to people without pushback even if those doing the bad things 1) out gun you 2) are doing it to unpopular people they claim are dangerous.
Where is your rule of law concerning prosecutorial discretion? Is it common for judges to issue orders involving foreign affairs? Where is the criminal who kidnapped Garcia? Why is he not being charged?
You have a weird and irrelevant fixation.
Am I a bad guy for wanting to see Senator Van Holland thrown in CECOP? I bet he'd do real well.
Yes it makes you a bad guy, and a fascist.
You left out Sexist and Homo-fobe-ic (and Good Looking!)
Yes, it makes you a piece of shit. But that's not something you haven't demonstrated here on a daily basis.
So I guess we can't "Agree to Disagree"?? but you've got me confused with Senator Van Holland
That's the worst part of this, they let him leave. Sad.
Nah. It'd be entertaining.
The time has come for the courts to forbid Trump from deporting anyone to a foreign prison. If the administration can't fix an error they need to be barred from deporting anyone like that.
They could probably get away with that. But that's not the issue here regarding the past crime of kidnapping Garcia.
Exactly.
And Trump, given that they have no power to do this, can ignore them.
Look you Knuckleheads, White House Deputy Chief of Staff for Policy Stephen Miller explained it the other day,
"He is an illegal alien in the United States. He has no lawful right to be here. He was issued a final order of removal from this country, and so it's up to El Salvador and to the government and the people of El Salvador what the fate of their own citizens is.
We can't extradite citizens of foreign countries to our country over the objection of those countries. Obviously, to do that would be a monstrous violation of international law. We can't go into other countries and kidnap their citizens and then take them back into our country.
That's up to El Salvador."
That's it Bee-Otches, Alfrego or whatever the fuck his name is ain't coming back, end of story.
Frank
Okay then, so The Trump administration is going to stop paying them to hold him in CECOT and tell them to release him, right?
They're a sovereign nation, and I've heard the Hispanics don't appreciate the Gringos treating them like umm, Hispanics.
He's not convicted of any crime in El Salvador. Their only reason to hold him is because Trump sent him there under that deal where they house criminal aliens on behalf of the US.
Bukele says otherwise.
Well said.
Wrong approach. I say, sue the U. S. officials who did the kidnapping, for damages which (if it wants) Congress can repay.
I've said in other contexts that judicial redress for injuries is a 9th Amendment right. Where federal officials are the violators, the right to sue ought ought to be exercised through the federal courts, but if Congress has neglected to give jurisdiction to those courts, we face two options: (a) no remedy, or (b) the state courts stepping in to fill the gap, until Congress acts to give the federal courts authority in such cases.
I prefer (b).
Make the kidnappers accountable. They seized the guy and shipped him to El Salvador; they were responsible for knowing that such shipment was forbidden, but I guess they didn't take the time to look that up.
As the judge says, if Garcia comes back, it's not like he has to stay here forever; the administrative proceedings can be reopened and if it can be shown that there's no longer a basis for withholding deportation to El Salvador, then he can get shipped back there - *with* the benefit of due process this time.
As for Garcia being a gang-banger, maybe he is. It doesn't change the issue, which is due process, not niceness.
"It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people." Dissenting opinion of Felix Frankfurter in U. S. v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 69 (1950)
The issue of what kind of injunctions the courts should give in a possible diplomatic discussion with another country is a distraction, a shiny object which, frankly, puts Trump on the aggrieved side. "You're gonna tell me how to conduct diplomacy?"
Of course, the Supreme Court says an order of some sort has to be issued, so the 4th Circuit has to work with that. So I'm not quarreling with Wilkinson and his distinguished colleagues. The Supreme Court has simply thrown out a shiny object which could distract people.
Shipping people to foreign prisons is not something the executive has an inherent right to do as an aspect of diplomacy. The courts have an interest in the rights of the people who are shipped there.
I'm not quarreling with the 4th Circuit being duly subordinate to its boss, the Supreme Court.
I do quarrel with the shiny distraction the Supreme Court created - instead of making sure Garcia can sue for damages, they tell the lower courts to tell Trump to ask El Salvador for Garcia back.
Just uphold the 9th Amendment and the right to pursue damages from the kidnappers in court. Which of course the Supreme Court *won't* do (as discussed in these comments), which makes it all the more remarkable that they'd meddle in diplomacy. They wouldn't have to meddle in diplomacy if they upheld the Constitution.
And, yes, diplomacy includes what grievances and requests to bring before other governments.
again, this is why the court's decision doesn't make any sense.
The Court can't order the executive to bring Garcia back, which is why effectuate had to remove from the order.
I honestly don't understand the point of this opinion. If Supreme has already conceded the Court can't order Garcia, and the Xinis has conceded in the hearing that's it beyond her power to order Garcia, what's the point of this Dog and Pony show?
I think suing for damages could kill two birds with one stone.
The public-official defendants, if they're staring at the possibility of large damages, will be more likely to get the damages reduced, or at least paid by Congress, if El Salvador mitigates the damage by giving back Garcia. Providing an incentive which the courts can't give by simply threatening to write stern notes.
Under what legal theory could he sue anyone for damages?
You mean under current jurisprudence? None. I've explained why I think current jurisprudence is wrong.
One of the rights "retained by the people" per the 9th Amendment is the right to sue someone who kidnaps you - even (or especially) if they're a government agent.
How can you retain a right you never had?
You can't.
So it's a good thing that judicial redress was a right people had at the Founding. E.g., for one of many examples:
"All courts shall be open; and every man for an injury done him in his lands, goods, person or reputation shall have remedy by due course of law, and right and justice administered without sale, denial or delay."/Penn. Constitution, Art. I § 11
This was even more fundamental to the Founders than the right to marry within the same sex is to modern people.
"Under what legal theory could he sue anyone for damages?"
Possibly the Westfall Act, but I haven't researched the question.
The Westfall Act (to the extent it applies) prevents anyone from being sued for damages; it requires the government to step in as defendant in place of the government employees who are sued.
It is distracting all the Trump-haters from the other things Trump is doing.
I think the Court could certainly order no further funds be sent to El Salvador for Abrego García's detention. That's a minimum. They could require a formal request. They could terminate the deportations to El Salvador program until it is brought into compliance.
Trump managed to get accused rapist Andrew Tate sprung from Romania. I don't think anyone doubts he could get Abrego García returned if he tried.
And that's the beauty of this fight. It is a giant eff you to the courts. Everyone knows Bukele would release if Trump really wanted him to do so. Ha ha. And that is what makes Wilkinson's whining that both governments say that they can't do anything so fucking hilarious. The federal courts have been overreaching for years. Time for them to be taken down a peg.
technically he could stay there forever, he is an El Salvadorian citizen, and his gang membership, he said it was forced, i don't think matter, because I don't think the territorial control policy distinguishes if you were forced into a gang, only that you were/are a gang member.
Wow. That Fourt Circuit order is one powerful rebuke of the Trump administration from a highly conservative Reagan appointee.
Yes. The judiciary itself is interested in this case, so ideology may not be an indicator.
The court called for a response by 5 PM today. Docket entry 5 at
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69902650/kilmar-abrego-garcia-v-kristi-noem/. I do not see a response. I infer the court was able to deny the application without any help.
I am glad to see they got no response.
It is done. Ignore them.
Put the judiciary back in its place. It is not the top level of the government. It is the lowest of the three branches.
You might want to wait until you pass high school — or even middle school — civics before you comment on these issues that are beyond your intellectual capacity.
Civics: 4th grade; 8th grade; 10th grade, in the public school system I attended. U.S. history in 7th grade and 11th grade. Turned out we needed more, apparently. The teaching was uneven.
The best teacher in the school to handle that stuff was a brilliant former army nurse who survived the Bataan campaign, then escaped to Corregidor before the Death March, only to spend WW II interned in a Japanese POW camp in Manila. Problem was, the school needed her more to teach Euclidean Geometry, Trigonometry, Calculus, and Matrix Algebra.
Thank you Lois Croft.
So for history we got someone else. She delivered fond remembrances of growing up in Baton Rouge, and more than a hint of magnolia-scented Lost Cause ideology. But she could handle leading the Battle Hymn of the Republic, because it afforded opportunity to go straight to the 5th verse:
In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me.
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.
That was her favorite verse, she said.
The response was requested from Garcia's lawyers. The Appeals Court thought the government was so obviously wrong that it denied the government's request without waitng for Garcia's lawyers to tell them why it was wrong.
The appeals court case is so wrong. The fact that Kilmar was mistakenly deported does not mean that the courts get to tell Trump to lean on Bukele.
Checkmate.
Bukele already said no. There is no more for Trump to do. That troll Xinis is free to make calls, just be careful to not violate the Logan Act.
Just curious...going back to the War on Terror. Say the CIA had someone held at an undisclosed black site somewhere in the world. Could a court have ordered the prisoner transferred to Leavenworth?
Is this a decent enough analogy?
Not really.
“Say the CIA grabbed someone off the street in the US and shipped them overseas to a black site…” might be closer.
How would that make a difference to a court's jurisdiction to order a transfer to the US?
So many problems with your analogy... for instances, no court has ordered that, and the US operates black sites unlike CECOT.
A court could have ordered the prisoner produced in court, that he be humanely treated and given access to the things prisoners have to be given access to, and released if there were not grounds to hold him. I'm not sure what the basis of a court order to house him in a specific prison would be, but possibly.
"And what assurance shall there be that the Executive will not train its broad discretionary powers upon its political enemies? "
Automatic disqualification for Judge J. Harvie Wilkinson to further serve in his position.
Care to elucidate?
Yes, that line is particularly absurd. The judges are the ones training on political enemies. It is not Trump's job to give assurances to judges.
That's not really an answer, is it?
Can you explain, without references to Trump as God, why it is not his job to assure judges he is following the law?
It is not part of the job description. This old judge justifies the comment by saying that Eisenhower gave assurances for forced racial school busing, after Brown v Board in 1957! No, I hope Trump does not give this judge any assurances.
note https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/juan-carlos-lopez-gomez-ice-florida-b2735491.html
US citizen detained by ice today-awaiting release of detaiiner despite obvious citizenship.
Side topic, related:
Given that Sen. Val Hollen was not allowed to visit Abrego Garcia in prison, we should request a visit by the ICRC. Maybe that will get their attention.
The more international human rights organizations have their attention focused on these prisons, the less Bukele is going to want to continue this farce. I doubt he really wants too many people examine what is going on there super closely. Trump is going to be making his life increasingly difficult. Maybe difficult enough that it won't be worth the $25K per head.
Bukele could give a shit about international human rights groups. He is cozying up with China, who has a stellar track record on human rights. Venezuela is also oppressing their entire population while flagrantly and proudly abusing their population's human rights. Do you know anything about Central/South American history?
wait apparently not isolated incident: https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-ice-immigration-detained-americans-congress-questions-unanswered
good thing a birth cert currently proves citizenship..........unless and until that changes.
Question.
Can a federal court order the United States not to make any payments on its contract with El Salvador to house American deportees in its prisons?
That is an interesting question, to which I don't know the answer.
But a judge can certainly take the administration's unwillingness to take that step as evidence of civil contempt.
I guess as a matter of power, the judge could take that as evidence, but that would be improper. Even if you think that this guy should be brought home, a judge has no right to interfere with how the government handles other cases.
The opinion is so maudlin--cue the violins. But what matters is that the President of El Salvador has said that he isn't returning this guy. Yes, we all know that this is a "wink, wink, nod, nod" type of deal and that Bukele would return the guy if Trump seriously wanted to do it. But the key point is that the courts have no ability to look through the kabuki theatrics. Checkmate. Facilitate, in this context, means that the government has to make it easier. It can't require him to get a visa etc. etc. But it doesn't mean that the government has to lean on Bukele to get the process started.
Wilkinson is right that this fight diminishes both sides. But the courts need to be taken down a peg, and this is the ideal case to do it. TFB for Kilmar,
The courts can stop deportation flights to foreign prisons.
Does Trump value keeping this one guy in prison more than he values being able to deport future aliens to foreign prisons? That's up to Trump to decide. The Supreme Court has a hook it can use.
The courts, theoretically, could order that no aliens be deported to foreign prisons. And here's what happens--ever hear of Zadvydas v. Davis? We'd have to release criminal aliens back into society. That court decision is actually responsible for murders here in the USA.
This is not a fight the courts want to have. You seem to be under the impression that this is a fight about the rule of court-manufactured law. It is a fight over the legitimacy of how much power the courts have arrogated unto themselves.
That ruling does not preclude keeping people who are convicted criminals in prison. And Trump can end this just by getting Abrego Garcia released. Do you think the courts will abandon due process rights before Trump abandons keeping this one random Hispanic migrant in prison? Yes this is a fight the courts want to have, and they will win.
Yup, as demonstrated by the memos from negotiations between the U.S. and El Salvador, as they were setting this up in March. Per the AP article I cited earlier:
Not that last sentence: "charged"...something the Trump Administration has declined to do with Abrego Garca.
The suck-up to the dictator posting is nauseating. Courts are generally skeptical of kabuki theatrics, as I think we will see.
I am sure if President AOC made a deal with Hamas and decided to wink-wink send you to Gaza without a hearing, you would interpret court orders to "facilitate" your return differently.
Biden did dramatically worse and was on the take for his entire "Presidency" (his awareness of being President was sketchy)
And when the Biden Administration prosecuted people who found Ashley Biden's diary and sold it, you guys didn't care about the FBI being turned into a Praetorian Guard (with the full acquiescence of the courts).
Stop the whining---we're gonna win this one.
Here is the thing about this Abrego Garcia business.
I have heard and read that deportees can continue to challenge their deportation even after they have been deported.
I suppose that if the deportees ultimately prevail, the courts can order Executive branch officials to not just admit these deportees back, but to make transportation arrangements for their return to the U.S. as soon as they are able and willing.
Now, suppose some people were deported to Israel on October 5, 2023. The government concedes that the deportations were legally erroneous. The courts order the officials to bring the deportees back to the United States.
And some of these deportees were taken hostage by Hamas on October 7, 2023.
An order to make transportation arrangements for those deportees taken hostage, as soon as they are able and willing, would not be controversial.
But can a court order the Administration to send in SEAL Team Six to rescue these deportee-hostages?
Could they order the Administration to invade Gaza?
Could they order the Administration to negotiate with Hamas, let alone accede to any demand Hamas makes?
The government of El Salvador is not a hostile foreign power. We have a deal with them where we are paying them to house prisoners for us. Which is how this guy got into CECOT in the first place. And the courts can just decide that deal is unconstitutional if it doesn't include provisions to guarentee the return of people sent there in error.
Trump can either correct his mistake or say goodbye to future deportations to foreign prisons.
"Trump can either correct his mistake or say goodbye to future deportations to foreign prisons."
Sez you.
This is an option that the courts are within their power to take as well. Whether deportations to foreign prisons are constitutional is not a foreign policy matter. Does Trump really want to insist that there's no possible way to provide due process rights to the prisoners involved, once they are in foreign custody? Is he really sure that's what he wants to argue?
"And the courts can just decide that deal is unconstitutional if it doesn't include provisions to guarentee the return of people sent there in error."
Courts.
Have.
No.
Say.
In.
Foreign.
Policy.
That is absolutely foreign policy.
In what sense could an injunction to stop them be invalid? Anything beyond "It impinges of the privileges of the King"?
Are you a lawyer?
The crux of the court's denial is on page 3 of the order (https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ca4.178400/gov.uscourts.ca4.178400.8.0.pdf)
"“Facilitate” is an active verb. It requires that steps be taken as the Supreme Court has made perfectly clear. See Abrego Garcia, supra, slip op. at 2 (“[T]he Government should be prepared to share what it can concerning the steps it has taken and the prospect of further steps.”). The plain and active meaning of the word cannot be diluted by its constriction, as the government would have it, to a narrow term of art. We are not bound in this context by a definition crafted by an administrative agency and contained in a mere policy directive. Cf. Loper Bright Enters. v. Raimondo, 603 U.S. 369, 400 (2024); Christensen v. Harris Cnty., 529 U.S. 576, 587 (2000). Thus, the government’s argument that all it must do is “remove any domestic barriers to [Abrego Garcia’s] return,” Mot. for Stay at 2, is not well taken in light of the Supreme Court’s command that the government facilitate Abrego Garcia’s release from custody in El Salvador."
"“Facilitation” does not permit the admittedly erroneous deportation of an individual to the one country’s prisons that the withholding order forbids and, further, to do so in disregard of a court order that the government not so subtly spurns. “Facilitation” does not sanction the abrogation of habeas corpus through the transfer of custody to foreign detention centers in the manner attempted here. Allowing all this would “facilitate” foreign detention more than it would domestic..."
I think the court got this one correct. The Trump administration stepped over the line needlessly into what looks like intentional belligerence. As anyone who spends any time at all in a court of law well knows, trying to bum-rush a judge is the last thing you ever want to do.
Courts need to be pared back and this is a fight Trump's people have been ready for.
Yup. Pretty much, the only current “...domestic barriers to [Abrego Garcia’s] return” are the Trump Administration's repeated refusals to facilitate his return.
They asked. Bukele said no. There is literally nothing more Trump is obligated to do.