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The Dred Scott Challenge or: Why Constitutional Law is Not a Game
Evan Bernick's fourth in a series of guest-blogging posts on birthright citizenship.

I'm a very competitive person by nature, and I like a good challenge. That's a big reason why I play video games, and why I particularly enjoy games by FromSoftware, the powerhouse developer behind Dark Souls, Bloodborne, and Elden Ring. (Especially Bloodborne.) These games are hard—brutally hard, intentionally hard, hard to the point of creating a semiannual debate about whether This Boss Is Too Hard.
I'm not good at FromSoftware games. (This is good.) I can and do beat them, but it's incredibly messy. Who cares, though? For me, it's fun and it's rewarding to finally FINALLY kill the Orphan of Kos or Malenia. It doesn't matter how it gets done, because it doesn't affect anyone else. All that matters is that I overcame the challenge.
Law isn't like this. If it's possible to say what the law is without taking a normative stance concerning whether it is good or bad, law itself is not normatively neutral. It tells people what to do. It confers power upon people to do things that they would not otherwise be able to do—and those things affect other people. It cannot be reduced to force or threats of sanctions, but as the late, great Fred Schauer emphasized, force is rarely entirely out of the picture. If you do law messily, you can harm people.
I bring this up because the harshest critique of anti-birthright arguments that is ever likely to appear in print contends that its targets—Peter Schuck and Rogers Smith (both opponents of the EO, for the record)—adhere to a theory of the Citizenship Clause that would take us back to Dred Scott. Gerald Neuman charges that Schuck and Smith's consent-based account of the parental allegiance necessary for a child's citizenship following birth faces two insurmountable obstacles. First, it cannot nullify the effects of Dred Scott's denial of citizenship to Black Americans. Second, its premises about citizenship closely track those of Chief Justice Taney's infamous opinion.
I'll conclude this series by taking inspiration from Neuman's arguments. I'll show that his charges—grave though they are—stick to consent theories of citizenship. And I'll contend that even if, somehow, someway, you can conjure up a consent theory that can avoid them, you shouldn't do it. The Dred Scott challenge isn't a difficult but rewarding game that ingenious scholars should have an interest in overcoming. It's an invitation to rewrite constitutional text and history in harmful ways.
Antebellum Consent
I've made two claims about the connection between the concept of allegiance and the language of the Citizenship Clause. First, the connection is generally accepted within Citizenship Clause literature. Second, to the extent that the conventional wisdom is accurate, the concept of allegiance which informs the original meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" is not consensual and the allegiance of parents does not control the allegiance—and thus birthright citizenship—of children. I have not claimed, however, that one cannot find any evidence supporting consent theories of citizenship in the antebellum United States. The trouble for consent theorists is that this evidence comes from the South.
Consider again Lincoln Attorney General Edward Bates's 1862 opinion on citizenship. In affirming that free Black sailors were citizens of the United States, Bates reversed a prior opinion by James Madison's AG William Wirt. Wirt had reasoned that free people of color in Virginia were not natural born citizens because they had not taken an oath of allegiance. For Bates, this was bizarre: "If it be true that the oath of allegiance must either create or precede citizenship, then it follows, of necessity, that there can be no natural-born citizens, as the Constitution affirms, because the child must be born before it can take the oath." Notions of consensual allegiance were not unheard of, even if Bates found Wirt's unusual. But one tends to find them among enslavers.
Antebellum common law concerning citizenship was not copy-pasted from Coke's Institutes. To draw any sharp distinction between jus soli territory-based citizenship and jus sanguinis lineage-based citizenship and claim that antebellum courts rejected the latter and uniformly embraced the former would be misleading. Antebellum jus soli had distinctive contours, and some southern state courts took a consent-based approach to citizenship instead.
What was distinctive about antebellum jus soli? It wasn't just that British subjects became American citizens. Not even was it that Americans rejected as a feudal relic the notion of perpetual allegiance to a sovereign that could never be cast off. The abolitionist movement for birthright freedom emphasized the significance of territory and denigrated the importance of lineage. We can't look past this to the original intentions of (say) Coke in Calvin's Case, for the same reason that we can't look past the Revolutionary-era reception of Coke's report of Dr. Bonham's Case to what Coke really meant to say. For public-meaning purposes, what matters is how Constitution-makers understood the common law, not whether they were in some abstract sense "right" about its glassy essence.
We also can't look past the exceptions to the rule. Mark Shawhan details how courts in the South found ways to deny citizenship to free Black residents, lest they be found to be "entitled to a range of civil rights." Time and again, southern courts pointed to state denial of civil and (especially) political rights as indicative of a lack of consent on the part of the sovereign to their participation in the social compact. They refused to treat territorial birth plus unmediated exposure to sovereign power as sufficient for a child's citizenship—thus, allegiance was demanded but protection not offered. That is an important part of why enslaved people fled for free states and abolitionists worked to turn states into safe havens for birthright citizens.
Consent in Dred Scott
Written by a slaveholder and joined by five other slaveholders, Dred Scott v. Sandford's reasoning is continuous with the consent theory that surfaced in enslaving states. It treats the denial of civil and (especially) political rights to Black people as dispositive of their exclusion from citizenship. It does this because it infers from the denial of rights a lack of consent on the part of the (White) political community to Black citizenship. Territorial birth plus exposure to unmediated sovereign power is considered insufficient absent consent. Here's the key passage:
The words "people of the United States" and "citizens" are synonymous terms, and mean the same thing. They both describe the political body who, according to our republican institutions, form the sovereignty, and who hold the power and conduct the Government through their representatives. They are what we familiarly call the "sovereign people," and every citizen is one of this people, and a constituent member of this sovereignty. The question before us is, whether the class of persons described in the plea in abatement compose a portion of this people, and are constituent members of this sovereignty? We think they are not, and that they are not included, and were not intended to be included, under the word "citizens" in the Constitution, and can therefore claim none of the rights and privileges which that instrument provides for and secures to citizens of the United States. On the contrary, they were at that time considered as a subordinate and inferior class of beings, who had been subjugated by the dominant race, and, whether emancipated or not, yet remained subject to their authority, and had no rights or privileges but such as those who held the power and the Government might choose to grant them.
This has to be wrong. Anyone who said otherwise would immediately discredit their claim to be on the side of Reconstruction Republicans, who roundly rejected Dred Scott and viewed the Citizenship Clause in part as a means of nullifying it. And there are many nonexclusive options to choose from in denouncing it. Here are three:
- Dred Scott is wrong because Black people were included and intended to be citizens of the United States, on the basis of Taney's own evidence
- Dred Scott is wrong because Black people were included and intended to be citizens of the United States, owing to evidence that Taney either didn't or failed to adequately consider
- Dred Scott is wrong because U.S. citizenship, properly understood, does not turn upon the consent of the polity to citizenship at all but on birth in U.S. territory and obligation to follow U.S. sovereign power
Does it matter which route one takes, so long as one gets to the right destination? It does. The text of the Citizenship Clause does not only proclaim Black citizenship, and leading Republicans made uncontradicted representations that it did not only proclaim Black citizenship. So, interpreting the meaning of the Citizenship Clause requires ascertaining which kinds of accounts of what was wrong with Dred Scott Republicans most likely held. Only then can we position ourselves to figure out who other than Black Americans born in the United States are birthright citizens. If Taney misapplied an otherwise-agreeable approach to citizenship, consent-based theories might be unproblematic.
But this just isn't what Republicans said, nor is that surprising given the history canvassed above. Again, just read Bates's opinion, which refuses to treat the denial of a parent's rights as dispositive of whether one's child is entitled to citizenship. Read the legislative debates about the Civil Rights Act of 1866, upon which consent theorists tend to rely because so little in the debate over the Citizenship Clause is helpful to them. Go, do it. You tell me who thought consent was important. I'll wait.
Yeah, it's the Democrats. Men like Hendricks, Rogers, Davis. Again and again, they're the ones complaining about territory-based citizenship and the common law because no one consented to any of that and because the political community just had to be able to deny its consent to the membership of people of "barbarian races." And they're the ones citing Dred Scott favorably.
Is it possible to critique Dred Scott on consensualist grounds? Sure. Options (1) and (2) are available. They are not, however, options that Republicans exercised, making any effort to rehabilitate consensualism by this means ahistorical.
Nullifying Dred Scott
There's another profound challenge facing consent theorists. Even if one could explain Dred Scott's wrongness by deploying a consent theory without doing violence to the relevant history, can one actually use that consent theory to nullify Dred Scott's effects?
Any account of the Citizenship Clause which depended upon the actual consent of either enslaved people or the polity to be bound by U.S. sovereign power would be ludicrous. At the risk of trying readers' patience, I'll make it short: They were enslaved. Actual consent can't be rescued by positing that all Black Americans consented to be citizens of the United States in 1865, just as the United States (via constitutional amendment) consented to make them members of it. It's a theory, sure, but this kind of actual consent just didn't happen in a confirmable way on the scale that would be required to make the theory fit the history. Even if it did, we'd still have the problem that the text of the Citizenship Clause refers to people who are subject at birth to the jurisdiction of the United States. We'd have to establish that the enslaved parents of newly freed, now-consenting people somehow offered the requisite consent, which is so incoherent that it doesn't deserve any further consideration.
Hypothetical consent seems to be the only viable option for consent theorists. One could posit that because the United States demanded that enslaved people comply with its sovereign power, it incurred an obligation to protect enslaved people. Enslaved people didn't actually consent to allegiance-without-protection, but the U.S. demand for allegiance created a protective obligation. Once the U.S. actually honored that obligation, no-longer-enslaved people would be justified in thinking the arrangement a net-beneficial one. Or so one might argue.
Again, I'm not ruling out the possibility that one could come up with a consent theory of citizenship that would (1) explain why Dred Scott is wrong; (2) nullify Dred Scott; and (3) be coherent. I am saying that it isn't worth the trouble. There is a much, much easier way to explain why an outcome that any credible theory of the Citizenship Clause must produce is correct. If you're born in the United States and subject to the unmediated sovereign power of the United States, you're a citizen of the United States.
Game Over
I think I could beat the Dred Scott challenge, if I wanted to do so. I could come up with an elegant theory that explained why, on a consent-based account of citizenship, Dred Scott was wrongly decided and the Citizenship Clause nullified it. I think I could do more. I think I could convince you that it was consistent with some legitimate strand of originalism. Perhaps I could even convince you of a theory along these lines that would exclude the children of unlawful entrants from citizenship.
I'm not going to try, and I don't think that anyone should. That's because, as Robert Cover put it, "Legal interpretation takes place in a field of pain and death." It's not a soccer field or a football field, it's not the Lands Between in Elden Ring. Play games with the Reconstruction Constitution, and people will suffer, bleed, die.
I've been a harsh, loud critic of the "originalist" arguments against birthright citizenship. It's been suggested to me that there must be something beyond disagreement, even strong disagreement, about the original meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. It can't just be that I'm really confident that the conventional wisdom is right, and the contrarians are wrong. Right?
For me, there's no "just" about it. Ultimately, I think that any originalism worth doing—any legal interpretation worth doing—needs to be done in the belief that you're doing something you ought to be doing. I think public officials ought to follow the original public meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment, not only because they promise to do so but because it is substantively good. If you're not even in the ballpark of being right about it because of the way you went about it, you're doing something wrong.
Maybe you don't agree with any of that. In that case, I'll just summarize where I stand on the merits. Whatever one may think of it as a policy matter, the original public meaning of the Citizenship Clause guarantees citizenship to the children of unlawful entrants and temporary visitors. The anti-birthright EO is unconstitutional, and those who continue to defend any part of it are doing so in the face of overwhelming evidence that the conventional wisdom—vindicated by state-of-the-art originalism, applied by scholars across the ideological spectrum—is correct. I don't question their sincerity. I do doubt their methods and results, and doubt that any good can come of their continued advocacy on behalf of demonstrably erroneous positions.
I'm grateful for the invitation to put this series together, and for readers' patience with some very long (probably too long) posts. But honestly? I hope this is game over.
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Can Prof. Bernick explain why he believes birthright citizenship is "substantively good"? It encourages practices such as birth tourism, which make a mockery of American citizenship. Maybe it is required by the Constitution, in which case the Constitution is flawed. (But that isn't news, is it?)
I don't think it is difficult to explain the intense hostility to the Barnett/Wurman/Lash position. Libertarian and left legal commentators mostly oppose immigration controls. Birthright citizenship undermines the existing controls and facilitates high immigration, including illegal immigration.
Did you even read the posts? You are making a policy argument and a political argument. You are not making a legal argument. Let alone one centered on original public meaning of the relevant legal text at issue.
If you make a legal argument - perhaps it would be discussed. Nobody cares about your political and policy preferences.
All you have accomplished is proving this simple point: If you want birthright citizenship to change; then amend the fkn constitution to change it. Until that happens, it doesn't matter what negative policy or political realities exist because none of those modern problems or issues can go back in time to affect the original public meaning of the text of the 14th amendment at the time it was enacted.
" You are making a policy argument and a political argument."
It sounds like he was addressing the policy claim made is the OP, which is, "I think public officials ought to follow the original public meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment, not only because they promise to do so but because it is substantively good."
I would argue that birthright citizenship is substantively good because people have a fundamental right to participate as citizens in the intuitions that govern them. We can limit that participation with respect to foreigners because we have a right to control who enters the country, but people born here have never entered the country.
It sounds like he was addressing the policy claim made is the OP, which is, "I think public officials ought to follow the original public meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment, not only because they promise to do so but because it is substantively good."
I agree with your last paragraph, but I think you miss what Prof. Bernick is saying here. I read it as "following the original public meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment is substantively good." That doesn't have to mean that all policies that result from doing that will be. In other words, it is following that particular interpretive method that he sees as good, even if the practical results of doing so will vary in their 'goodness'. Maybe he thinks that because he feels that it will lead to better results more often than not, maybe he thinks that because it is more likely to avoid bias, or maybe he has some other normative reason that I haven't come up with for viewing following the original public meaning of the 14th Amendment to be the right plan.
That is why mikeybates' criticism is a non sequitur here.
Legal arguments ? Policy, political, and legal arguments are generally the same thing.
How one reads anything is done under personal desires for the most part. Objective views, today, are mostly nonexistent.
The 14th amendment itself fails clarity of use due to personal desires as does our modern "system" of government.
Law is practiced for personal desires, not for objective worth.
Policy, political, and legal arguments are generally the same thing.
This is the worst thing someone has ever posted on the Internet.
Apparently, he has the benefit of conventional wisdom and "state of the art" originalism. Or something. Oh, and if you don't support the expansive view of citizenship for the offspring of every itinerant that happens to trespass over the border than you support slavery. If there were another post, the same opponents to his argument would likely become Nazi slaveholder anti-birthrighters.
Way to miss the entire discussion. These posts are insider baseball discussions and critiques of the use of a specific type of legal theory applied to a specific legal text but that reach different results/conclusions.
So why is that happening?
Insider baseball. What a damn joke. If these childish tendentious rants are the best the EO opponents can muster, they'll fare as well as the opponents of presidential immunity.
If you disagree with the 14A citizenship on policy grounds, the way to proceed is via constitutional amendment, not by trying to change the standing interpretation of 14A.
"way to proceed is via constitutional amendment"
Like the gay marriage constitutional amendment?
Rules that bind one side [conservatives] but not the other [liberals] are useless.
If the current GOP appointed judges won't get rid of the doctrine, then we should get ones that will. Just like Democrats would.
That definitely is the problem with the "If you don't like it, pass an amendment" line of argument. I've been guilty of using it before.
In its defense, however, there are situations where it is really hard to believe that someone is being sincere in their interpretation of the Constitution. If they are not sincere, and are just torturing the language of the text in order to reach their desired outcome, then saying that they need to pass an amendment instead is a valid response.
The case against birthright citizenship being made by the Trump administration cannot credibly be considered sincere. Bernick's argument seems, to me, come down to him thinking that the few academics trying to defend the administration's position are not completely insincere, but they are treating the question like it is a game they are trying to win or puzzle to solve, rather than treating it as if real people's fundamental rights are at stake.
Therefore, pass an amendment sounds like the right response to me.
Gay marriage? Abortion? Gun rights? Other hot-button culture war questions? Those have varying degrees of valid debates over constitutional interpretation surrounding them that the Court needed to resolve. If people don't like the Court's rulings in those case, then "pass an amendment" is the only option that doesn't involve replacing Justices with ones more to their liking. Which, of course, is how conservatives got Roe overturned.
Many people believe that people who were born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, but who have renounced their citizenship, are not citizens of the United States under the Constitution, even though that in inconsistent with the unambiguous text of the 14A.
Are those people insincere in their interpretation of the Constitution?
In addition, SCOTUS recently held that election rules can be created by parties other than state legislators even though the Constitution says it has to be State Legislatures. Were they sincere?
“Standing interpretation”? There is no legal precedent interpreting the Citizenship Clause as providing birthright citizenship to itinerant travelers or illegals. This is an administrative misapplication of the text of the 14th amendment that can be administratively corrected by the President.
"U.S. citizenship, properly understood, does not turn upon the consent of the polity to citizenship at all but on birth in U.S. territory and obligation to follow U.S. sovereign power"
Are "consent of the polity" and "US Sovereign power" not the same thing?
Your interpretation allows that a person could shoot their way onto US soil before giving birth, then demand citizenship for their newborn. You would say that since that person was not an invading army of some foreign government, then we must welcome the newborn as a citizen, despite the parent's defiance of US sovereign power.
Indeed, this is not a game!
Why wouldn't the newborn be a citizen?
Because the guy who wrote the citizenship clause said from the floor of Congress when the clause was introduced and discussed, "What do we mean by 'subject to the jurisdiction of the United States'? Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means." And nobody disagreed.
And? Why wouldn't the newborn be a citizen?
Because the newborn should be claiming citizenship in the country of his parents.
1) Newborns can't "claim citizenship." Most can't even sign their own names.
2) Nobody can "claim" citizenship in another country. That would be up to the other country.
The newborn's parents can make a claim his behalf. The other country could reject the claim. Then maybe the child would be stateless.
I’ll give you this crazy Dave. You are consistently obnoxious, if nothing else.
Dual nationality, along with dual citizenship, is a status that has long been recognized in law. "The concept of dual citizenship recognizes that a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to the responsibilities of both." Kawakita v. United States, 343 U.S. 717, 723 (1952).
"[D]ual citizenship presupposes rights of citizenship in each country. It could not exist if the assertion of rights or the assumption of liabilities of one were deemed inconsistent with the maintenance of the other." Id., at 725. As the Supreme Court there opined:
343 U.S. at 734.
By way of background, Tomoya Kawakita, born in California to Japanese parents, was in Japan when World War II broke out and stayed in Japan until the war was over. After returning to the United States, he was arrested, charged with and convicted by a jury of treason and sentenced to death for having abused American prisoners of war while in Japan. Kawakita claimed he could not be found guilty of treason since he had lost his U.S. citizenship while in Japan, but this argument was rejected by the courts (including the Supreme Court), which ruled that he had in fact retained his U.S. citizenship during the war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawakita_v._United_States
Yes, that is the concept of dual citizenship, but it is not really recognized. That case just had some dicta to uphold a conviction.
You’ll have to excuse NG. He has a problem understanding what is and isn’t dicta.
Early in our history, we went to war (and lost) over the issue of dual citizenship. Our thinking on the subject has evolved over history.
They might well be a citizen, but the citizenship clause doesn't require it. For example, if the newborn is a citizen or subject of a foreign power, the clause doesn't require it. Second, if US policy choices exclude this class of persons from full and complete, exclusive allegiance jurisdiction, the clause doesn't require it.
Yes, of course, it does. The text of the 14th amendment says "subject to the jurisdiction of [the U.S.]" That's literally it. It says nothing about also being a citizen somewhere else. Your deliberate attempt to rewrite it multiple times — first you take a quote from someone that isn't in the text, and then you rewrite that quote — leads to insane results. If tomorrow a country — say, Germany — declares that from here on out, all people with at least one German grandparent are automatically citizens of Germany, then under your logic any newborn born to a naturalized U.S. citizen from Germany would no longer be a citizen and would have to be naturalized if they didn't want to be deported.
The entire point of the 14th amendment was to codify that "U.S. policy choices" could no longer play a role in citizenship.
Which quote did I rewrite?
"If tomorrow a country — say, Germany — declares that from here on out, all people with at least one German grandparent are automatically citizens of Germany, then under your logic any newborn born to a naturalized U.S. citizen from Germany would no longer be a citizen and would have to be naturalized if they didn't want to be deported."
No. First of all, nobody can lose citizenship once they have it, except under very limited circumstances. Second, if someone is a citizen of a foreign country at birth, this doesn't mean they are not U.S. citizens; it only means the U.S. is not constitutionally obligated to grant citizenship. Third, the U.S. consistently recognized an individual, natural right to dissolve any allegiances, so the declaration of another country is not controlling in any event.
"The entire point of the 14th amendment was to codify that "U.S. policy choices" could no longer play a role in citizenship."
No, the point was to codify that the US Constitution did not exclude slaves from citizenship as Dred Scott had indicated - and that, thus, the particular US policy choice reflected in the CRA could be validly carried out, and not reversed without amendment.
The ratification debates are full of discussion of U.S. policy choices regarding the classes of persons who would have citizenship, from treaties with foreign countries to decisions to make certain sets of Indians subject to US jurisdiction.
Your statement is just nonsensical. If the US is supposed to be able to decide who enters its border, how long they stay, who gets naturalized, etc, then how does its policy choices play no role in citizenship?
Trumbull's. It says "Not owing allegiance to anybody else." (Which, I reiterate, is not the 14th amendment's language.) And you changed that to say "if the newborn is a citizen or subject of a foreign power."
Just to be clear, the quote that I quoted (which is, y'know, the part in "quotes") was quoted with perfect accuracy.
Yes, I'm not accusing you of falsifying the quote. I am saying that you are not applying the actual quote to the discussion, but instead you are putting your own gloss on it. Nothing in Trumbull's words — which, I reiterate, are not the words of the 14th amendment — say that if the child is a citizen of another country that the child is excluded.
That's why my hypo said "from here on out" and "newborn." I'm talking about prospectively, not retroactively.
Maybe my hypo wasn't clear, so let me make it concrete. Karl is a German citizen. He moves to the U.S. and gets naturalized. Then one day Karl has a son, Friedrich. Germany had passed my hypothetical law before Friedrich was born. So Friedrich is a German citizen at birth, which means that he is a "citizen of a foreign country," so that means under your (mis)intepretation that he is not a birthright US citizen.
But if Germany hadn't passed that law, Friedrich would've been a birthright US citizen. In other words, your misinterpretation of the constitution has birthright citizenship depending on the actions of foreign governments.
The constitution doesn't say that the U.S. is obligated to grant citizenship to people born here; it says that people born here simply are citizens, regardless of what the U.S. does. Again: the entire point of the 14th amendment was to take this out of the hands of the government. That's why it's an amendment rather than just a statute.
Friedrich may be entitled to renounce his German citizenship at some point, but he had it automatically at birth, so according to you he isn't a citizen at birth.
If that were the point, there were much shorter ways to say it. It was intended to codify the broader common law rule, permanently. Not to make a targeted rule for blacks, as you say here, and certainly not to narrow the long-established rule that parental citizenship didn't matter.
Sen. Cowan (Pennsylvania):
I have supposed, further, that it was essential to the existence of society itself and particularly essential to the existence of a free State, that it should have the power, not only of declaring who should exercise political power within its boundaries, but that if it were overrun by another and a different race, it would have the right to absolutely expel them. I do not know that there is any danger to many of the States in this Union; but is it proposed that the people of California are to remain quiescent while they are overrun by a flood of immigration of the Mongol race? Are they to
be immigrated out of house and home by Chinese? I should think not. It is not supposed that the people of California, in a broad and general sense, have any higher rights than the people of China; but they are in possession of the country of California, and if another people of a different race, of different religion, of different
manners, of different traditions, different tastes and sympathies are to come there and have the free right to locate there and settle among them, and if they have an opportunity of pouring in such an immigration as in a short time will double or treble the population of California, I ask, are the people of California powerless to protect themselves?
Sounds like "replacement theory" goes back a ways, doesn't it? All the way to the debates over the Citizenship Clause of the 14th Amendment.
Sen. Conness (California) replied next:
The proposition before us, I will say, Mr. President, relates simply in that respect to the children begotten of Chinese parents in California, and it is proposed to declare that they shall be citizens. We have declared that by law; now it is proposed to incorporate the same provision in the fundamental instrument of the nation. I am in favor of doing so. I voted for the proposition to declare that the children of all parentage whatever, born in California, should be regarded and treated as citizens of the United States, entitled to equal civil rights with other citizens of the United States.
Members of Congress that debated the Citizenship Clause absolutely understood that it would mean that children born in the U.S. to immigrants would be citizens by virtue of their birth on U.S. soil. And they voted to approve it and send it to the states knowing that.
Source:
https://archive.org/stream/DebatesThatLedToTheCreationOfTheFourteenthAmendment/Debates%20that%20led%20to%20the%20creation%20of%20the%20Fourteenth%20Amendment_djvu.txt
Cut the shit already. You know that same guy previously said the children of German citizens born in the USA are citizens at birth. He didn't change his mind between the Civil Rights Act (which explicitly said "allegiance") and the 14th (which does not say "allegiance").
"that same guy previously said the children of German citizens born in the USA are citizens at birth"
He didn't say German citizens, he said immigrants of German background who settled in the US. The context was him explaining there was no difference between German and Chinese under existing citizenship law (prior to the CRA and prior to 14a).
"He didn't change his mind between the Civil Rights Act (which explicitly said "allegiance" and the 14th (which does not say "allegiance")."
The CRA did not explicitly say allegiance. It explicitly said "not subject to any foreign power." The drafters of the citizenship clause made it abundantly clear that they thought the citizenship clause language had the same meaning as the CRA: "the object to be arrived at is the same." And nobody disagreed.
Agreed that he did not change his mind.
Trumbull was not arguing for the CRA to change current law.
Correct. He was explaining that Cowan's comments were irrelevant, because the law already did not make any racial distinction between Chinese and Germans with respect to citizenship, so the issue Cowan was complaining about wasn't even presented.
Trumbull said both 1) there were no racial distinctions in the law and 2) the law provided for birthright citizenship to people born in the USA of non-citizen parents.
His not proposing any changes in the law implies he thinks the CRA provided for birthright citizenship of people born in the USA of non-citizen parents (he thinks "not subject to any foreign power" means not answerable in foreign courts for conduct while in the USA).
His not changing his mind implies he thinks the 14th also provided for birthright citizenship of people born in the USA of non-citizen parents.
Yes, he did!
"children who are born here of parents who have not been naturalized are citizens"
So why do you keep trying to import talk of "allegiance," then?
I've never heard of the US making a treaty with an illegal alien, I'm pretty sure they are subject to our laws, and can be sued.
*facepalm* . . . . The US made treaties with Indian tribes, just as it does with the countries where illegal immigrants come from.
Indians were also subject to our laws and could be sued, when they were outside their territories. Just like visiting foreigners. Indians were not subject to our laws when within their territories. Just like foreigners are not subject to our laws when they are in their own countries.
Why is this so hard to understand?
I quoted that language in the comments of Bernick's prior post, before he did, by the way.
Dred Scott is an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more, I notice
I seldom agree with Drackman, but he wins this thread.
You're not going to bait me into unmuting him.
You need to know what Drackman posted, just put a smile on your face:
Okay, you're right; that was funny. Still not getting me to unmute him, though!
Go ahead ya mute!, and if you see your friend Shep Proudfoot tell him I’m going to nail his ass!
Everytime 'consent-based citizenship' is used to refer to the sovereign consenting to have you as a citizen, rather than you consenting to be a citizen, I get a headache.
There has to be a better term for that concept.
I feel like the admonition not to treat the law as a game to win you policy outcome at al costs it a secret jab at Josh Blackman.
All this discussion of Dred Scott is irrelevant. Nobody is arguing about the children of American slaves. They are citizen. Today's issue is the children of foreigners.
You don't understand the discussion. Everyone agrees that they're citizens. The point is, therefore, that if one's interpretation of the 14th amendment would lead to a different result, then said interpretation must be wrong.
You are right, I don't understand why Bernick distracts us with all this irrelevant stuff that he says is wrong, instead of just telling us how he interprets the 14A. If he favors birth tourism and anchor babies, he needs to provide some justification for that.
You're right. You don't understand. Legal (or historical) analysis requires more than saying what you want to be true. It means analyzing the source material and the arguments for other theories. (And he has told us how he interprets it.)
Neither of those things exist, but the only "justification" needed is that that's what the constitution says.
Yes, it says that a child is an American citizen if he is born in America to American parents. That is how I read it, anyway.
Then you read it incorrectly. It doesn't use any of those words, and if that's how it was read, it would not have protected the children of slaves, so it can't be the correct reading.
The slaves were Americans, and not subject to a foreign power. Their children would be citizens.
Maybe you refer to slaves that might have been illegally imported in 1860. If they had children, then maybe the whole family would be deported to their home country.
By your theory, the slaves were not American citizens. Each slave came from a lineage that eventually leads back to someone who was not an American (a person kidnapped into the USA). That person was never naturalized. Their children, grandchildren, etc. were never naturalized. Thus, none were ever citizens according to you because their parents were not citizens.
The 14A made them citizens, if they had no connection to a foreign power.
That is not just my literal reading. The purpose of the 14A was to make them citizens, not to legalize birth tourism or anchor babies.
They had a connection to a foreign power. Their parents (or grandparents, etc.) were citizens of other countries. Some were citizens of those countries themselves.
Your problem as pointed out in the OP, is how to argue that the text of 14th made the former slaves born in the USA citizens without also making other people citizens who were born in the USA of non-citizen parents.
Immigrants are Americans, and not subject to a foreign power.
That is some fine writing in the OP. More Bernick, less Blackman.
A pleasing writing style, agreed.
I'd rather see less Roger S. than "less Blackman".
That guy just will never accept that he is incorrect on a point, despite other's corrections, even on questions of fact.
He seems to not understand the dialogue at all.
He's not generally vulgar or anything but it's so tiring to read him jumping from thin reed to thin reed without seeming to even understand the arguments he receives in opposition. Just fingers in ears.
Trump's EO is going to Scotus, and I do not think that Scotus is going to revisit all this Dred Scott silliness.
You're obviously not an attorney because you never engage with attorney's arguments who point out your errors. You would have more credibility if you refuted their points of law rather than ignore them and retread your silly appeals to fringe theories.
You are barely above Riva Bot regarding productive discussions on this board.
The article is a rather absurd attempt to impute the reasoning of Dred Scott to the author's opponents in the birthright citizenship debate.
Dred Scott was ultimately a racist decision. Blacks were not part of this country. They were brought here a slaves and unfit to form a government with white people. Therefore this unfortunate race could NEVER be part of our society.
That is a far cry from saying that someone should not be unjustly enriched by violating our laws, being in the country illegally, and being able to bestow U.S. citizenship on their progeny.
I've said before that I think the pro-birthright citizenship side has the better argument, but the other side puts forward a cogent argument that is not amenable to the Dred Scott strawman.
Schuck and Smith put forth the consent argument (they argue that the 14th has given consent only to the children of citizens and green-card holders, sorry to those here legally on temporary visas). Showing that their argument doesn't square with nullifying Dred Scott doesn't strike me as a strawman.
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