The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
The WilmerHale Complaint
Paul Clement and Erin Murphy brilliantly defend what shouldn't need defending, but does
Further to Eugene's post about the TRO that was entered in the suit filed by WilmerHale against the Trump Administration Executive Order, I highly recommend taking a look at the Complaint filed by the Paul Clement-Erin Murphy firm. The first six pages or so is as eloquent a defense of an independent legal enterprise as you are likely to read.
13. The Order violates the separation of powers twice over. The President's role is to enforce the law—not to create new law or adjudicate litigation conduct before the courts — and no statute or constitutional provision empowers him to unilaterally sanction WilmerHale in this manner. That is unsurprising; any legislative effort to restrict lawyers' access to government buildings, services, and materials just for representing disfavored clients or causes would be patently unconstitutional. And any executive-branch effort to deter private attorneys from representing particular clients or advancing particular arguments "threatens severe impairment of the judicial function," as courts depend on attorneys to "present all … reasonable and well-grounded arguments" on their clients' behalf. Legal Servs. Corp. v. Velazquez, 531 U.S. 533, 545- 46 (2001).
14. On top of that, the Order flagrantly violates due process. It imposes severe consequences without notice or any opportunity to be heard; it uses vague, expansive language that does not adequately inform WilmerHale (or its clients) of what conduct triggered these extraordinary sanctions; and it unfairly singles out WilmerHale based on its perceived connections to disfavored individuals and causes.
Nicely put.
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Too obvious to need saying, but here we are, having to say it.
The middle has ceased to hold.
Everyone knows what comes after that,
probably not, a lot of culturally illiterate out there,
I might confuse my "to" and "too"'s but I know my
Yeats
Frank "stop slouching!"
And what orange beast ...
Some day, if only by dint of the sheer elemental chaos of an entropic universe, Dr. Ed will get a famous quote correct.
But it is not this day.
Yes. Quantum physics dictate that Ed's brain went through every permutation of thought possible in the universe before he eventually opened his yap.
Unfortunately for us, Ed's wave function always collapses to what is most energetically favorable for him: ignorance and hate
Monkeys, typewriters, Shakespeare.
Yes. At least a monkey has the capacity to accidentally write a sonnet
There are two versions -- Yeats used the line in two different works.
Did he now, Dr. Ed? What’s the other one?
I can't believe I'm saying this, but well done, well done, I say I'm a Yeats man, but I really only know "The Second Coming", had to memorize it in 8th grade (those California Pubic Screw-els, other kids were learning something useful, like how to bleed brakes)
No Homo, but you're like Vince Vega in Pulp Fiction when Mia tells him there's 2 Marilyn Monroes, and he points out one is Marilyn but the other is Mamie Van Doren...
Frank
We all know that Google is biased against Dr. Ed, but when I typed in his Yeats "quote" for giggles (and a sanity check), this was the only result:
> Dr. Ed says:
January 1, 2022 at 7:41 pm
No, in the free-fire zone that higher education has become, the middle has ceased to hold.<
https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2021/12/27/the-war-against-academic-freedom/
What was the 'proof' Trump colluded with Russia again? I doubt anyone here can remember without looking it up and most probably have also forgotten why Mueller was hired in the first place. Almost as if this was just another thing they threw on the wall to see if it stuck and now want to pretend nothing happened when Trump decided to play relatively nice and not to make war his first term and Trump is just targeting this poor little firms who were just minding their own business.
Trump tried to collude. He thought he was colluding. Remember the Trump Tower meeting?
Trump Jr. meeting with a russian lady to see if Clinton was doing something wrong is dangerous treason. Those ruskies and foreigners can't be trusted. Unless they're providing information against trump like peetapes. In which case you can trust them 100%!
Everybody should also just trust the Clintons. Only republicans should be investigated to make sure they aren't doing any shady dealings. To ask the same for Dems is unpatriotic!
She told him she was with the Russian Government and whether he wanted dirt on Hillary Clinton. Jr. said, "Sure!" and then Trump told the world he would soon disclose "some very interesting information on Hillary Clinton". Sounds like collusion to me.
So I guess if someone who supposedly worked for a foreign government (not even really clear if this is true) comes with information about candidate's possible misdeeds it should be immediately dismissed and anyone American who knows its provenance and spreads it should be considered a traitor because such overtures are always due to the direct order of the head of state? Sounds reasonable. I guess the Dems who spread the Steele dossier nonsense should be thrown in jail along with DJTJ. While we're at it we should arrest all those who facilitated Labour Party 'volunteers' interfering with the 2024 election because they're obviously working under the direct command of the UK government. And we should take a hard look at all the countless other times the Dems enlisted foreigners with ties to foreign governments.
He told Russia to hack Hillary and they complied. It was all on film, Amos. Perhaps you missed it. Anyway, all the shit from the past two months blows the Mueller investigation out of the water
Making an offhand public joke about uncovering your opponents misdeeds makes totes makes you a dangerous foreign agent. Touch grass.
There's lots of offhand jokes you can make about your opponent's misdeeds without inviting a foreign adversary to do something.
And his campaign manager was a foreign agent.
Is there a constitutional 'right' to federal contracting business? There is not.
Is the 'right' to counsel restricted here, for the Fed gov't? It is not; there are thousands of law firms with which to work, and dozens of BigLaw firms in the DC Metro area. Under this POTUS, who can decide who will work for him, there may be a 'Dirty Dozen' BigLaw firms that are frozen out of fed contracting b/c they have lost the confidence of POTUS Trump to execute their legal assignments properly. POTUS Trump has been remarkably transparent in explaining his reasoning, which, is what it is. Litigation isn't going to change this outcome.
Is there really a legal solution here? Not for the BigLaw firms branded with the scarlet 'T'. Those BigLaw firms would do well to talk to their Fortune 500 clients to replace their lost Fed contracting business.
Paul Clements made a brilliant legal argument. He is a special lawyer. He really is. It won't change the outcome, here. There are a subset of BigLaw firms that POTUS Trump identified who he will not hire, period. Article 2 says POTUS Trump does get to choose who works for him. Their fed contracting business is impaired regardless of what a judge rules. Differen(T) bureaucrats are now administering fed contracts. It is what it is. They will be in purgatory for a while.
Professor Post, the genius BigLaw firm CEOs already reached out to POTUS Trump and made sure they weren't going to be the subject of an EO. The smart CEOs of BigLaw firms are probably reaching out this weekend. The rest? It will be a long wait, could be years. Sorry.
"Article 2 says POTUS Trump does get to choose who works for him."
Where? Article II is not that long, I am sure you can find it.
Under Art. II, the president is vested with all Executive power. It most clearly does not say “all Executive power except the ability to choose who works for the Executive.”
Art. II is not that long. I’m sure you can read it for yourself.
The word "all" is not there.
My point is that "The executive Power shall be vested in a President" is not at all the same as "Article 2 says POTUS Trump does get to choose who works for him."
Point of order: the president absolutely does get to pick who works for him. He can pick his personal barber, tailor, and can buy his socks from anywhere he likes.
Who he picks to work for us has limits that we impose via congress. He can't say he will only let GSA rent from Hispanic building owners. Jimmy Carter couldn't say that MRE's must contain only peanut butter made from peanuts his family grew, etc, etc. Within the limits congress sets, he can decide whether Ford or Chevy has the best bid this year, but if for example congress says 'GSA will only buy cars from American companies', then the pres can't tell GSA to buy Kias.
That is a "Point of Information". A "Point of Order" is used when you believe the debate rules have been broken.
Kia has a plant in Georgia
The Kia manufacturing plant in Georgia is located in West Point, covering 2,200 acres with a total investment of $2.8 billion. It is the only Kia manufacturing plant in the United States and has an annual capacity of more than 350,000 vehicles. The plant produces the Telluride, Sorento, and Sportage SUVs, and will soon manufacture the all-electric EV9 three-row SUV. Additionally, assembly of Kia electric vehicles is expected to begin in the first half of 2025 at Hyundai Motor Group Metaplant America near Savannah, Georgia.
In addition to punctuation, this moron does not understand analogies.
I'll admit, when it comes to Anal, you're the expert
"The Executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America." Where exactly does that vest executive power in someone else "Molly"? (you're not really a woman, let's be honest)
"The Executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America." is a general statement, not a statement of absolute power over the Executive Branch. The President still has to follow federal law which means Congress can put limits on presidential power that is not specifically outlined in Article II.
No, it means no such thing. You fundamentally misunderstand what it means to vest all executive power in the president. So, to clear up your confusion, all executive power is vested in the president. None in Congress. None in the judiciary. Any attempt by Congress (or the courts) to intrude on the President's executive prerogatives would be unconstitutional and thus illegal. And it is within the executive discretion of the president to revoke WilmareHale's security clearances and not to conduct business with them due to their past misconduct.
Executive means putting laws or policy into action. Not making laws or policy.
It's fascinating to watch these MAGA's wail about delegation and then turn around and make comments like this.
MAGAs pretend that the "he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" clause does not exist.
It is absurd. They get "Any attempt by Congress (or the courts) to intrude on the President's executive prerogatives would be unconstitutional and thus illegal" out of a general clause but ignore the explicit clause that says the president needs to follow the law.
The Constitution is the highest law. Under the Constitution, the president manages and controls the executive branch. Get elected president yourself if you want to hire executive staff. Otherwise, deal it with, or we could say, suck it up.
This isn’t a matter of making laws, Malignant. Choosing whom to hire or fire in the executive branch would be the responsibility of the party vested with all executive authority, that would be the president. Congress can’t tell the president what executive staff he should hire or fire. The president can’t tell Congress what congressional staff they should hire or fire.
How is that relevant here?
Not sure what you mean. "Molly" denied that all executive power is vested in the president. Malignant was ranting about making law. I responded and clarified that the president can direct whom to hire or fire in the executive branch. And he doesn't have to employ WilmareHale, especially given his findings of bad behavior.
Making "findings" is a judicial power, not an executive one.
Not outside of a case or controversy. And not within an Executive order or proclamation. In fact, little troll, submitting such matters to a court for review would actually be unconstitutional. Courts don't give advisory opinions.
Are you actually retarded? Whether a party (and its clients!) can be debarred is a case or controversy.
And we have only scratched the surface of crazy Dave's profoundly stupid comment "Making "findings" is a judicial power, not an executive one" Profoundly stupid doesn't in fact do it justice (no pun intended). Just plain, flat out, unmitigated stupidity. A perfect example of crazy Dave's fathomless ignorance. I am shocked he could have graduated HS let alone a higher institution.
I originally responded with an example of findings by the president only in the context of an EO/proclamation. Many other examples. And we can also bring Congress into this. Crazy Dave apparently has never heard of congressional findings.
YOU fundamentally misunderstand it. The executive power vested in the President is only the very limited executive power of the head of a free society whose legislature is by design its most powerful branch of government, not the much greater executive power of an absolute monarch or dictator.
The executive power is the power to “faithfully” execute the laws. You are completelt missing the implications of that limitation right there. The President has no power whatsoever to deviate from what Congress says. If Congress provides for an agency to have so many employees, he has no authority whatsoever to cut the nimber below what Congress sets. If Congress assigns a responsibility to an agency, he has no authority whatsoever to transfer that responsibility to a different agency.
Except for those powers the Constitution specifically grants the President, like the Commander in Chief and thr Pardon Power,general “executive power” is only this very limited power to make what Congress tells him to make happen happen in the way Congress tells him to do it.
Congress, not the President, is boss. The President merely presides. He does not rule. He is not some Roman princeps, not even a Princeps inter pares. And he is certainly not a Roman emperor. The Framers spent a lot of effort trying to prevent that. Giving the President only very limited powers was one of the chief was they did that.
1. The constitution doesn't say "all executive power."
2. The constitution doesn't say that any of the things you're talking about are part of the executive power in the first place. The executive power comprises what Congress says it comprises.
That comment is so profoundly stupid and incorrect that I only comment further to recommend to readers to gaze with amazement on your sublime ignorance.
What is that "T" supposed to stand for, XY?
Treason? Doing something Trump doesn't like is not yet treason.
You continue to applaud the slide into authoritarianism. It's disgusting to read such brainless, slobbering, sycophancy.
More like: You're Terminated (You're fired). That sounds vaguely familiar, for some reason.
Whether that's a scarlet letter or a badge of merit depends on who the terminator is.
If it's Trump, I imagine a lot of people would view it as the latter, or at least not negative.
> Is there a constitutional 'right' to federal contracting business? There is not.
No, but once contracts are given out, they must be done on constitutional basis.
For example, there is no right to federal contracting business, but Biden could not summarily exclude Mexicans or Hindus.
This ought to be fairly obvious.
POTUS Trump did not name race as a reason not to contract with the T branded BigLaw firms.
“But I did eat breakfast this morning!”
Isn't the direct contracting thing a complete red herring anyway? I doubt any of these firms make any material amount of money off contracts direct with the Federal govt.
Rather, what these orders seek to do is put these firms out of business by blackballing from Federal contracting work any companies that use those firms for any reason (in connection with their government contracts or otherwise). Trump is giving those companies a choice: fire the law firms in question, or lose all Federal contracts.
You are correct.
Yes.
Funny you equating being a Democrat with a protected class.
Yes, but it is hard to believe that Trump cannot instruct executive branch agencies not to hire this or that law firm simply because he believes they disagree with his administration’s policies and objectives and therefore cannot be trusted to be zealous advocates.
But corporations are people.....
Legally, the firm is a person, and Trump is free to not hire specific persons.
1. Corporations are not people.
2. There are limits on the government’s ability to refuse to hire people.
3. These orders go much further than a refusal to hire the firms.
Other than that, great comment!
Artificial and Natural Persons, Business Law 101.
Maybe Nas had a few more courses than that.
Perhaps but so what?
This seems like a very strange claim to make in response to a story about how litigation has already changed the outcome.
Depends what "outcome" you're talking about. Legal outcome's not the game here.
You're a big federal contractor seeking big federal contracts from a scary Trumpy administration, with Elon wandering around with a chain saw. Times could get hard. Trump has loudy annouced that Big Law Firms A, B and C are pariahs, while Big Law Firms D, E and F have bent the knee and promised to be good boys and girls.
Which Big Law Firm are you gonna hire ? It's not as simple as just making some big campaign contributions any more. Trump is telling you - cuddle up to my enemies and you can whistle for government contracts.
It's not identical to the old "you really want to provide banking services to gun manufacturers ? Really ? Nice banking license you got there." But it's the same basic idea.
That is EXACTLY CORRECT = Legal outcome's not the game here.
Assuming arguendo that there is no constitutional 'right' to federal contracting business, a government entity’s “threat of invoking legal sanctions and other means of coercion” against a third party “to achieve the suppression” of disfavored speech violates the First Amendment. Bantam Books, Inc. v. Sullivan, 372 U.S. 58, 67 (1963).
“To state a claim that the government violated the First Amendment through coercion of a third party, a plaintiff must plausibly allege conduct that, viewed in context, could be reasonably understood to convey a threat of adverse government action in order to punish or suppress the plaintiff 's speech” Nat'l Rifle Ass'n of Am. v. Vullo, 602 U.S. 175, ___, 144 S.Ct. 1316, 1328 (2024). SCOTUS there opined in a unanimous decision:
144 S.Ct. at 1322. That is indistinguishable from what President Trump is doing with regard to law firms whose present or past members have incurred his ire.
NG, you are assuming that judges matter here. They actually do not.
Think it through.
Nothing offends the leftist like accountability. This law firm felt free to engage in any number of bad acts, but as soon as the bill comes due they howl. "Only WE are allowed to mess with YOU!" I hope the admin makes it hurt.
This is extortion, not accountability. It is also a fascist move. It is bedrock to our legal system that lawyers do not take on the sins of their clients.
"It is bedrock to our legal system that lawyers do not take on the sins of their clients."
I seem to remember a huge left-wing lawfare movement to get any lawyer who represented Trump disbarred.
Turnabout is, as always, fair play.
They can't be disbarred on feelings. The lawyers disbarred committed unethical and sometimes illegal acts on behalf of Trump. They had the opportunity to defend themselves; hire their own counsel for the proceedings and present evidence as to why they shouldn't be sanctioned or disbarred. The decisions are public and they have the right to appeal. Basically, everything Trump's executive orders don't do ...the bar hearing process does do. Its not even remotely comparable. Turnabout is fair play... huh. I don't think you even know what words mean. And yet here you are making stupid comments on the internet.
MAGAs are simpletons. Any level of detail is lost on them.
LOL. Those "proceedings" were kangaroo trials, and you know it.
What constituted "unethical" acts on behalf of Trump were often nothing more than advocating zealously for his interests.
"I seem to remember a huge left-wing lawfare movement to get any lawyer who represented Trump disbarred.
Turnabout is, as always, fair play."
Tu quoque.
"I can't defend this, but the other side did something similar so I love it!"
This is a confession of no principles.
Not at all. It is the national principle of the Scots, proudly announced :
"Nemo me impune lacessit "
For the Latinless it encompasses the idea that while you should not cast the first stone, when they are thrown at you, you're going to throw them back.
If anyone finds the Trump 2.0 administration puzzling, be puzzled no longer.
Lee Moore — Latin or not, that is an unconstitutional principle. I wish it were not.
If it were not, then reining Trump in would be easier for the courts. They could take collective judicial notice of Trump's ongoing and evident attempt to overturn American constitutionalism, and act on that basis to strip him of power to continue. When Trump throws stones at America, he could be barraged by stones thrown back. It is only customary adherence to judicial comity which prevents that.
Instead of permitting a traitor justly to be stoned, a corruptly partisan Supreme Court majority handed Trump impunity. The corrupt majority did that based on no principle at all. That dangerous initiative inflicted case-by-case judicial fecklessness on the nation, while lower courts attempt to play fair using dice the Supreme Court loaded against the American people, and against the judicial system the Court purports to superintend.
Of course, the same unbounded initiative the Supreme Court majority invoked to put Trump v. United States in place, could be used before sundown today to reverse course, and announce that case wrongly decided and overturned. Every day which passes without that relief marks another day of Supreme Court assistance for Trump's lunge to end American constitutionalism.
Darn leftists like Paul Clement and his supporters Eugene Volokh and Ed Whelan!
Say it ain't so, Slow Joe, of course Lawyers protect their own, like Rats (ban analogy)
The big law firms played stupid games. Their lawfare failed. Now they get their prizes. Or, to put it another way, FAFO. Now they’re finding out.
Tu quoque.
"I can't defend this, but the other side did something similar so I love it!"
This is a confession of no principles.
Nobody's personal principles govern here you moron. The Constitution controls and the President's directive regarding WilmareHale is within his constitutional discretion. Now kindly F off.
Bad acts?
What bad acts?
Glad you asked. Let's look at the Presidential order "Assessing Risks From WillmareHale" because no one else in this site apparently has. It reads in part:
Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP (WilmerHale) is yet another law firm that has abandoned the profession’s highest ideals and abused its pro bono practice to engage in activities that undermine justice and the interests of the United States. For example, WilmerHale engages in obvious partisan representations to achieve political ends, supports efforts to discriminate on the basis of race, backs the obstruction of efforts to prevent illegal aliens from committing horrific crimes and trafficking deadly drugs within our borders, and furthers the degradation of the quality of American elections, including by supporting efforts designed to enable noncitizens to vote. Moreover, WilmerHale itself discriminates against its employees based on race and other categories prohibited by civil rights laws, including through the use of race-based “targets.”
WilmerHale is also bent on employing lawyers who weaponize the prosecutorial power to upend the democratic process and distort justice. For example, WilmerHale rewarded Robert Mueller and his colleagues — Aaron Zebley, Mueller’s “top aide” and “closest associate,” and James Quarles — by welcoming them to the firm after they wielded the power of the Federal Government to lead one of the most partisan investigations in American history. Mueller’s investigation epitomizes the weaponization of government, yet WilmerHale claimed he “embodies the highest value of our firm and profession.” Mueller’s “investigation” upended the lives of public servants in my Administration who were summoned before “prosecutors” with the effect of interfering in their ability to fulfill the mandates of my first term agenda. This weaponization of the justice system must not be rewarded, let alone condoned.
Well besides all of that, what did they do?
To put this in non-MAGA speak: They worked on cases and investigations that focused on Trump and supports DEI.
Trump's EO is a pure partisan attack on lawyers doing their job.
No, it's worse than partisan. It's personal.
The degree to which Trumpists are now willing to view Don’s personal vendettas as coextensive and indeed indistinguishable from the putatively distinct interests of the federal government is really quite something. Call it monarchism, caudilloism, whatever. It’s pretty alarming. DOJ is not there to be Trump’s personal Roy Cohn—something I can’t believe I actually have to state out loud.
You're both wrong. It is the determination of the President acting within the scope of his executive authority. You don't like it? Run for president yourself. Then all executive authority would be vested in you if you win and you could decide whom the executive branch hires or fires. Otherwise, feel free to scream helplessly at the sky, or whatever, I don't care.
Riva-bot has no defense of this on principle.
The Constitution controls you buffoon. Not whatever warped principles are important to you.
Once it stopped controlling Pedo Joe's actions, I stopped caring about any pretense that it should control Trump's.
Your deranged Trump hate is not an interpretive principle you abysmal idiot.
Let's say they took cases opposing gay marriage.
Would a leftist Democrat be required to hire them?
Required, no. But they absolutely should not be banned from federal government cases and other punitive measures taken again them.
Where were you when Biden was pressuring lawyers to drop Trump?
Cloud Cuckoo Land, same place as you.
That's utter horseshit.
Hiring Mueller is some sort of sin?
So that means Trump can try to deny any lawyer the ability to practice by threatening firms that hire them with retaliation.
If you don't see tyranny when it stares you in the face you're a hopeless fool and cultist.
No little Trump hater, it means the President of the United States gets to decide whom the executive branch hires or fires. Don't like it? Can you hear my violin?
Again, Riva-bot has no defense on principle. It just prints "He can do it, haha, go to 15!"
Again, your deranged Trump hate is not an interpretive principle you abysmal idiot.
If nothing else, the law firm is currently suing the Trump administration. There is no constitutional requirement to give business to enemy law firms. The complaint just convinces me that Trump is right.
+1 (is that how you signify approval? "+1")
People who sue the government are "enemies"? That sounds very fascist to me.
Why is that
MarxistsDemocrats always reach for the f word when their arguments fail to persuade their targeed audience? Next they will be tossing Molotov cocktails, mocking governors with physical disabilities and use profanity laced tirades.I seem to recall Trump mocking a reporter with a physical disability, quite plainly and offensively, in front of a crowd. So STFU.
"targeed"
Lol.
Why is it that conservatives always reach for the M-word when they have no arguments at all?
Cope, seethe, mald, dilate. The shoe's on the other foot now.
This admin sure has some posters on here revealing how empty they are of redeeming qualities.
the law firm is currently suing the Trump administration
Isn't it textbook conflict of interest for them to also represent it?
The last time I hired a law firm, I avoided the firms that were suing me.
Me too....
Every accusation is a confession...
And notice how un-libertarian Kleppe's stance is: if you challenge the government, you should get challenged by the government!
I'm not a libertarian.
Am I the first to note the irony of Clement defending the firms that wouldn’t defend him?
I'm not sure how few BigLaw firms defended him when a firm decided to act against him. But people regularly join with people they dislike when they feel the government is violating the law. Plus, the Administration's continual attack on law firms that are somehow related to Trump's enemies is not likely to depend on their size.
That is not an answer. His Big Law firm abandoned a client due to Leftist pressures. Not a single Big Law firm came to his defense. Not one. And not you either.
Darn Leftists. That is some open-ended group that u don't like.
Anyway, it very well is an answer to why he's doing it.
Yeah, they were also silent when Obama and Biden and their coterie of traitors were pressuring insurance companies and banks to drop gun manufacturers and advocacy groups.
And leftist judges like Denny Chin held that it was okay, as long as the pressure wasn't "too much."
"Am I the first to note the irony of Clement defending the firms that wouldn’t defend him?"
Has the Trump administration targeted King & Spalding or Kirkland & Ellis, the firms from which Mr. Clement resigned?
Uh, it's principle.
Suppose Trump signed an EO stating that the government will not use contracting or construction companies who had built properties that competed with his private interests in NYC, for example, nor will any of their employees be permitted in Federal buildings. Would any of the cultists here have an issue with that?
Suppose you didn't ask stupid Hypotheticals? Just your regular stupid questions, would you hire a Law Firm that had been trying to put you in Jail/The Poor House for years? Going back a few years hear, but it'd be like the King family hiring James Earl Ray as a bodyguard.
The law firm was not trying to do anything. They were representing their clients.
Suppose an adult didn't use Weird Capitalizations?
Chicks love my Weird CaPitalizationS!
I wonder if the capitulator law firms would like a take-back at this point. Is there any process available to give them one? How about capitulator universities?
It would be an odd world if only Trump is allowed to break contracts.
I'm pretty sure that contracts entered into under duress are not enforceable.
Are Paybacks in the Constitution?
Frank "I'd like my Revenge cold thankyou"
You can tell the Trump admin is right on target, all the hornets are swarming. Smoke them out!
What a pathetic mindset that says "people I disagree with don't like X, so it must be right!"
Whattaboutosm and spite.
So far, I see zero other defenses being offered.
Just because it may be indefensible, doesn't mean much of the criticism of the Trump administration lawsuit doesn't also fail the whatabout test...because the critics now didn't previously criticize past Democrat bad behavior, about which they often approved, silently or otherwise.
That's the great thing about being a Never Trumper with a clear conscience: I can call out the Democrat partisan hacks when they try asserting their virtue now. Maybe I'll take you seriously right after you acknowledge your side's lawlessness. I'm happy to condemn it all.
That's what is especially admirable about Paul Clement here (and unlike Post). Since Clement himself has twice been a victim of the Big Law shenanigans the Trump order is trying to punish, and could easily have sat back now and said sauce for the goose. But no, he's acting on principle.
I'd view that as a lot less of a mind-read if he was doing this pro bono. Dude bills nearly $2500/hr these days, and it's entirely possible Wilmer sweetened the pot even more to get his name on the complaint.
Obligate Trumper demands charity to take someone seriously.
Hard to see this as a good faith objection.
If you actually intended that to be a good-faith response to what I said, maybe you can 'splain to the class the relationship (if any) between whatever you mean by "tak[ing] him seriously" and OP's "he's acting on principle."
You argued bad faith because he charging for his services.
It's fun to see folks like Bri Bri contorting to the bend the knee to the Mad King. Like most trolls, he's selective, won't address the general argument (note, he rarely does this).
LoB needed an excuse, but 'still does capitalism' is just the worst choice good lord.
You're just weird. I suspect even most non-native English speakers could read the words I wrote and readily understand my point: it's not clear at all that he's representing Wilmer out of some sort of high-minded principle rather than straightforward fee for service.
"I'd view that as a lot less of a mind-read if he was doing this pro bono. Dude bills nearly $2500/hr these days, and it's entirely possible Wilmer sweetened the pot even more to get his name on the complaint."
Well, I guess that doesn't QUITE qualify as a zero value add, since it certainly saves the reader the trouble of tracing back up the thread to verify that you're twisting yourself in knots trying to reimagine what I said because what I actually said is utterly straightforward and indisputable.
There is no such thing as the whattabout test! That's why its a fallacy!
Getting on a moral high horse about your politics just shows you've got too high an opinion of yourself; I take you seriously when you make arguments, and not when you decide to shitpost. You're generally about 50-50.
LOL you're talking about yourself, not me.
Because I've watched you twist yourself into pretzels, trying to deny that the wrong people are correct about numerous issues. You just can't bring yourself to it, especially with Bellmore, for example. Sure, he's not always right. None of us are. But you absolutely refuse to acknowledge when he's got a point. A more importantly, like here, when the side you favor is wrong, acting unprincipled, or in bad faith.
Anyone who can't ever acknowledge that their side is doing what you have previously condemned the other guys for doing is a partisan hack. Often, that's because it's (D)ifferent. But MAGA has this issue big time too. Like how they have responded to the Signal controversy.
You come in with 'my political philosophy rules and yours drools' go ahead; It won't do much but alienate people.
I have plenty of views that aren't from the left. On guns, and transgenders, and climate policy. You don't see it because you're doing the exact same blind except for your priors thing thing you accuse me of.
If I make a bad comment, explain why it's bad. Going off on an unrelated tangent about how I'm bad is just making it weird.
Just because it may be indefensible, doesn't mean much of the criticism of the Trump administration lawsuit doesn't also fail the whatabout test . . .
There could be a respectable, "whatabout test." It's existence would depend on scrupulous observance of an obligation to condemn first and most fiercely the offense most recently exampled, and only later to deplore other examples as more-general evidence of bad tendencies. To reverse that order is to reverse the effect of the test—to endorse the bad tendencies instead of to deplore them.
Highly!
When is the reply brief due?
I'm curious what is wrong with people. Maybe I'm wrong.
Does anyone really want to defend the general principle of "entities that the President doesn't like shouldn't be able to get government contracts?"
I think government contracts should be awarded based on an objective process indicating who would do the best job.
Could be this administration is engaging in preferential hiring? Dare we say...DEI?
Not that this is a particularly admirable course of action, but it’s a bit of distraction. The bigger issue isn’t Trump trying to stop the firms being hired by the government. It’s his trying to stop them from being hired by anyone, by trying to stop the government from hiring any of their other clients.
Exactly.
Right. What Trump is saying is "Kiss the ring and give me $25M or I will destroy your business."
It's extortion, pure and simple, and several prominent law firms have acceded. How anyone is in favor of this mystifies me.
I take it this is one of those times we're not supposed to ask why the default assumption is that we must continue to allow our tax dollars to be conscripted to sustain the existence of a business that has made itself dependent on them?
"The bigger issue isn’t Trump trying to stop the firms being hired by the government. It’s his trying to stop them from being hired by anyone, by trying to stop the government from hiring any of their other clients."
Get it now?
Youre accusing a political movement of promoting a cancel culture?
Who knew!
Jews at Columbia University send their best
Man, apparently it's Sarc-discovers-cut-and-paste day! What a fantastic new tool in the box to create loads of text on the screen to look like you're responding but without actually having to tax your gray matter.
I made my comment after reading the thread. If you actually thought you were making a point, feel free to elucidate it.
You are wrong on the facts of 'tax dollars.'
You don't seem to understand that, even if you read the thread. That's a pretty unfortunate display.
Reading the circle jerk by Democrats is both amusing and also non-scientific - their dismal polls are proof that they do not accept science. Per evolutionary pressures, they will cease to exist like an extinct Japanese sea lion (pun intended) because they failed to reproduce, failed to gain followers and were wildly successful at self-immolation. One child China policy goes Democrat
Explain what you mean by "stop the government form hiring any of their other clients."
"Does anyone really want to defend the general principle of 'entities that the President doesn't like shouldn't be able to get government contracts?'"
Why would I defend that? That isn't what the Executive Order said. Defend your own red herring lol
Do you deny that's part of what's going on? You seem to be gloating about it above with your 'The shoe's on the other foot now' post.
If I needed to sue over or defend myself against a Trump administration power overreach, I sure wouldn’t want a lawyer from a firm that caved and met Trunp’s demands. I would want a lawyer from a firm that shows me it has both the capacity and the will to fight. One that I can be confident won’t represent me with one hand tied behind its back because it’s worried about how representing me will affect its relationship with the Trunp administration or ability to get government business.
all the biglaw firms care about is their obscene profits per partner.
you'd want a little guy to fight for you.
I know I can mute users. How do I mute Post?