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Indiana Defendants Get "Benefit of Hindsight When It Reveals Their Conduct Was Necessary in Self-Defense," …
"even though that necessity wasn't fully apparent in the moment."
A brief excerpt from Wednesday's 11,000-word Indiana Supreme Court decision in Turner v. State, written by Justice Derek Molter:
This is a case about a good guy with a gun shooting a bad guy with a gun when the only choices were to shoot or be shot.
Antonio Turner was one of three students studying organic chemistry at a classmate's home, tucked away in a quiet neighborhood just outside of Indianapolis. While they were studying, the classmate's jealous love interest, Dequan Briscoe, repeatedly called her. And when he learned Turner was at her home, Briscoe twice threatened to "pull up" on Turner—to attack him—which Turner heard over the speakerphone.
Shortly after hearing the threat, Turner walked outside to his car, and moments later, he sensed that the unfamiliar car screeching towards him down the sleepy street was an ambush. Since he didn't have time to reach the house and had nowhere to hide, he turned while running and fired four shots into the car, wounding Briscoe. Turner fired based on his intuition—he didn't recognize the car, couldn't see through its darkly tinted windows, and wouldn't have recognized Briscoe if he saw him. But that intuition proved prescient. It turns out Briscoe was aiming a handgun to shoot Turner just before Turner began firing.
Because Turner shot Briscoe before Briscoe shot Turner, Turner is the defendant rather than the victim in this case; the State charged Turner with battery by means of a deadly weapon, a Level 5 felony. And following a bench trial, the magistrate judge convicted him. Yet the judge agreed with Turner that, in hindsight, it was necessary for Turner to fire at Briscoe to avoid being shot.
But the judge rejected Turner's self-defense justification because, without the benefit of hindsight, it was objectively unreasonable for Turner to fire at a car into which he couldn't see. Turner made the best choice, the judge explained, and it was unfortunate that his only choices were a felony or funeral. But that paradox followed from the objective reasonableness standard governing Indiana's self-defense law, and the law gave the judge no choice but to convict, he believed.
Fortunately for Turner, that isn't how Indiana's self-defense law functions. To be sure, the judge was correct that the self-defense statute justifies using force when the defendant's actions are objectively reasonable in the circumstances. And many cases explain we don't use hindsight to second-guess the reasonableness of the defendant's decisions in the heat of the moment.
But this case presents a question of first impression in Indiana: Do we deprive defendants of the benefit of hindsight when it reveals their conduct was necessary in self-defense, even though that necessity wasn't fully apparent in the moment? The answer is that we do not, and we base that answer on a sentence in the self-defense statute that our Indiana appellate courts have never interpreted before, which says: "No person, employer, or estate of a person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary."
This, of course, is just a short excerpt; read the full opinion for more. And here's an excerpt from Judge Christopher Goff's concurrence in the judgment:
Should the merits of a self-defense claim depend on the defendant having acted with knowledge of the justifying circumstances, even if his conduct is objectively justified in hindsight? Facing this very question well over a century ago [in 1892], this Court held that a defendant who acted out of no apparent necessity to preserve life or limb may not "interpose the defense of self-defense" simply because it "subsequently appears that there was actual danger, of which he was at the time ignorant."
The Court today reaches the opposite conclusion, holding sua sponte that, under an obscure and otherwise dormant provision of our self-defense statute, "Turner's use of force was justified not because his belief that he was about to be shot was reasonable but because that belief was correct, and force really was necessary to protect himself." Defendants like Turner, the Court opines, enjoy "the benefit of hindsight" when the evidence "reveals their conduct was necessary in self-defense, even though that necessity wasn't fully apparent in the moment."
In my view, the statutory provision on which the Court relies is less than clear. And its novel interpretation, I fear, will create uncertainty in the law, leading to potentially harmful consequences. What's more, even if I were to agree with the Court's interpretation, its holding rests on a flawed premise—there's simply nothing in the record to support the conclusion that "Turner avoided being shot by Briscoe only by shooting Briscoe first." For these reasons, and because I believe the Court's novel statutory interpretation is entirely unnecessary to give Turner relief, I concur only in the Court's judgment….
Finally, the Court's novel interpretation of the statute, in my view, is entirely unnecessary to give Turner relief….
Indiana's self-defense statute establishes "both an objective and subjective standard" to evaluate the reasonableness of a defendant's belief that force was necessary to protect against the imminent use of unlawful force. Under the subjective standard, the defendant must have "actually believed" force was necessary. And under the objective standard, the defendant's belief must be one that a "reasonable person" would form given the circumstances.
Applying these standards, the circumstances here, in my view, clearly justify Turner's actions: he knew that Briscoe owned a gun; he overheard Briscoe make angry, profanity-laced remarks to Nyah (his study partner) over the phone; Briscoe threatened to "pull up on" Turner, which Turner understood to mean that he'd be "coming to harm" him; and, not long after that tense exchange, a vehicle sped up to Turner—its engine revving and tires squealing—just as Turner had walked away from his own car parked in the cul-de-sac of a suburban, residential neighborhood.
Though Turner couldn't definitively say whether it was Briscoe in the car or whether Briscoe was pointing a gun at him, as the trial court stressed, the law didn't require him to. The touchstone of self-defense is reasonable belief, not absolute certainty. And Turner testified that, given the circumstances, he believed it "had to be" Briscoe "pulling up," that there was "[no] way it wasn't." In short, Turner wasn't acting based on "threats alone," as the trial court found, but, rather, on the circumstances before him at the time, which he reasonably believed placed him in grave danger….
Bryan L. Cook represents defendant.
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Curious as to why they went for a bench trial in the first place.
I can't think of a rational reason, unless they thought the jury pool in the area was so anti-gun rights that they'd convict no matter what. I suppose the bench trial gave him the benefit on appeals that the factfinder's reasoning was extensively built out on the record, but in a jury trial I imagine they'd have had a dragged out fight over jury instructions that they could appeal from about as easily. Hard to escape the assumption that it's bad trial lawyering, though the judge did a great job teeing the defendant up for appeal.
Never talk to the cops. Kid says 'sorry officer, I need my lawyer' and the facts on the ground lead to no charges.
It's revealing to watch some of those detective interrogations that are available on Youtube.
These people are trained to illicit a confession out of you whether you're guilty or not. All of their tactics that they are taught are premised on the idea you are guilty and their job is just to get you to admit it so their workload is easier. That should be criminalized itself.
I will never ever ever again speak to a detective about anything if I have any glimmer that they might be thinking of me as a suspect instead of a witness.
They are always thinking of you as a suspect.
If you aren't a cop, you are a suspect.
If you need a blanket rule this is better than “always talk to the cops”, and I’d recommend anyone to consult with a lawyer first if at all possible, but it’s still not a good rule. In particular, it’s clear that making a voluntary statement significantly bolstered Turner’s credibility with both the trial and supreme courts, and I think there’s a very good chance the case would have come out the other way if he’d stayed silent until trial.
“If you do have to shoot someone, don’t leave before the police get there”, on the other hand, is pretty reliably solid advice.
I'm not entirely happy with this.
On the one hand, the law should not be in the business of punishing people for undertaking actions which turn out to have been correct.
On the other hand, rewarding actions which somebody hadn't adequate reason to think were correct, and they just got lucky, does not sit well with me.
I guess you can square the circle by saying that their turning out to have been correct amounts to sufficient evidence to justify their subjective judgement.
But I still don't much like it. Turner just got lucky.
I think it comes down to the "reasonable" part of his claim. If someone says they are coming to kill you, or at least shoot the place up, and subsequently you are outside on a dead end street and suddenly a car comes barreling down toward you it is not unreasonable to put 2 and 2 together.
Could it have been someone else having a medical incident, or just a neighbor with a bathroom emergency, or someone with a lead foot? Possibly, but given the totality of the circumstances at that given instant those possibilities would not be reasonable to consider.
If I hear a fire call on my radio and minutes later I see a fire truck go by at high speed it is reasonable to assume they are not heading out for coffee.
Exactly. If you hear hoofbeats, expect horses, not zebras.
Brett,
I honestly believe that the self-defense laws are intentionally convoluted. Let me give an example that I experienced ten years ago. I was attending a meeting at our corporate office. The office is in a not so nice neighborhood so I always carry when I am there. The meeting was over and I was going to my car. A co-worker was about 100 yards in front of me crossing the parking lot. A guy knocked her down and grabbed her purse and computer bag. If he had just run away, all I could have done was give a description. Instead he starts kicking her. By that time I got close enough to pull my weapon and order him to stop. Thankfully he did stop. The Police showed up, not because of him attacking her, but, because I had a gun. There was no trouble with the Police. When I spoke to the Prosecutors they told me something interesting. If he would have run and I had chased him, he would have been justified in shooting me. Once he fled, he was no longer threatening anybody and by my chasing him, I was now threatening him. Think that one through. Once Turner heard the threat, he had reason to believe that his life was in danger. The manner in which the car was driven gave him cause. It comes down to the old statement "It is better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six."
...Who do you think is intentionally complicating self defense law across the US, and why?
California AB 1333.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73JYzA5NmgA&t=301s
Why? Trust issues.
I’m not sure how that’s complicating self defense laws instead of just narrowing them (in a way, to be clear, that I think is unjust).
If legislation narrows the qualifications in which you can exercise the right, in a situation where decisions must be made quickly, I'd call that complication.
That seems like a strange use of the term. Whatever the standard, there are going to be times when self defense is permitted and times when it’s not. Putting the threshold in a given place doesn’t seem inherently more complicated than putting it somewhere else.
Duty to retreat -
"The Supreme Court’s decision in /NYSRPA v. Bruen/ . . ruled that New York’s licensing scheme — requiring a citizen to prove an arbitrary “proper cause” to carry a firearm — was unconstitutional. The ruling should have opened the door for lawful citizens to exercise their Second Amendment rights without unnecessary government interference. . . . . Unable to reject applicants outright under /Bruen/, the department has pivoted to a new, equally unconstitutional strategy: endless delays. The law mandates that applications be processed within six months. The NYPD routinely ignores this, often dragging out approvals for a year or more, all without explanation."
https://www.ammoland.com/2025/03/the-fight-for-armed-self-defense-in-new-york-a-system-rigged-against-citizens/
That's not self defense.
it's restriction of the means and opportunity.
To be honest, Anti-gun Liberals. We had a County DA openly state that in her opinion there was no such thing as self-defense. It didn't matter the situation she said that she would prosecute. There was a man who was attacked outside a Bar. He hit the attacker and because of a heart defect he died. There were plenty of witnesses who all stated that he tried to avoid the incident and only hit the guy after being punched and kicked repeatedly. It didn't matter she charged him with Manslaughter. Only a good Defense Attorney and the Jury saved him.
What state was this? As far as I know, there is no American jurisdiction that would authorize a robber to use deadly force in that scenario.
For that matter, assume the fleeing robber feared for being shot in the back, so he spins and shoots the victim, who then dies.
This is a death resultant from his felony-still-in-progress (he continues to flee with the loot). Would he not therefore be repsonsible for that death, and thus charged with murder.
I think this synopsis gets it quite correct (p.8):
“Under Indiana’s self-defense statute … using force for protection based on a belief that is both unreasonable and turns out to be wrong isn’t justified, but acting on a belief that is unreasonable, yet right, is justified.”
And I have no problem with that.
That might be a sensible rule. But I have trouble seeing how you get there from the Indiana statute.
I'm not entirely comfortable with it, but it's not crazy.
I tend to agree with the concurrence here.
Shouldn't we be applying the same standards for civilians as we do for police when they felt that their safety was threatened?
If so, then if approached by a police officer who is drawing his gun, isn't that justification to shoot first?
Yes.
No.
https://listverse.com/2013/08/30/10-disturbing-cases-of-police-impersonation/
But in general should cops approach citizens with drawn guns?
No.
Who would have the burden of proving that it was/was not a necessity, and to what standard of evidence?
The State.
I'm all for shoot first when threatened, but I'm not sure here. Run it back: if he had shot at the car and killed the driver - who WASN'T who he expected - does he get a pass? He certainly had reason to believe his life MIGHT be in danger, but does that give him the right to shoot at the first POSSIBLE threat? The stress above is on hindsight, in which he was right. But what if they guy didn't bring a gun? Or just some knucklehead kids? You should never have to wait to be shot before you shoot to defend yourself, but he shot before he could even identify the threat. At THAT time, he was still safe. I have no problem with the shooting of thugs, but first you have to know you have a thug to target. I don't like it. Maybe some kind of manslaughter charge?
Civilization demands that many specific behaviors be suppressed, so its participants aren't often forced into these life-or-death choices.
Don't communicate threats. Don't accelerate in cul-de-sacs. Don't force people into life-and-death choices.
I’m happy to say that I’ve never been in this situation. But if someone says they’re going to drive over to where you are and attack you, you're standing outside the place where they’re coming, and you see a car drive right at you, I think it’s reasonable (not certain, but reasonable) to believe it’s that person coming to hurt you.
The (putative) victim survived, so that would be a bit of a stretch.
I do not remember organic chemistry as being this interesting.
I'm kinda with Brett and JonFrum ... take the same facts except the squealing tires are because Fred is hurrying to the hospital because his wife is screaming 'Faster...the baby is coming!', and hubby/wife/baby are killed.
I'm not sure what I'd do if I were king ... maybe sentence the defendant here to 30 days for reckless discharge or something, to A)not overpenalize him for a guess that turned out to be right while also B)incentivizing people in the future to think carefully.
The law in every state allows for the possibility that someone completely innocent can be killed in circumstances that permit a valid self-defense claim. I don’t think there’s any need to invent a new rule to cover this one.
"circumstances that permit a valid self-defense claim"
Sure, but I'm questioning how valid the claim is.
Slightly different circumstances: Bob tells you he is headed to your house to kill you. A little while later, you hear a knock at the door. You think it's Bob and shoot through the door, killing a UPS driver. IMHO not justifiable; you should wait until Bob actually tries to break in, or you see him through the window with a gun or whatever.
IMHO, YMMV, "he didn't recognize the car, couldn't see through its darkly tinted windows, and wouldn't have recognized Briscoe if he saw him" is too close to shooting the UPS man. I agree there is an edge here - if he recognized Briscoe's car that would move the needle for me, for example.
Another fairly bright line for me is inside the house. We had a tragic one locally a few years ago - a drunk comes home at 0200 to a row of similar houses. When his key didn't work he proceeded to break down the door. The resident shot him as he came through the broken door. Tragic but justifiable, IMHO.
It’s close, and I can imagine any number of plausible details that could move the needle significantly in either direction. That said, I think there’s concurrence makes out a very clear case that the trial court applied the wrong standard, which at a minimum would support a remand to consider under the correct standard. And as the concurrence notes, the judge’s noting that he might have done the same thing in the situation makes it hard to see how the conduct wasn’t objectively reasonable.
"unfamiliar car screeching towards him"
I think this should be sufficient for self defense. A 4,000 pound car at high speed is a killing weapon.
I think the concurrence has it right here. At a minimum the trial judge* appears to have misapplied the law of self-defense, and I tend to think the facts as recited make out a valid claim. The majority’s rule seems unnecessary, bad policy, and impossible to reconcile with the statutory text.
*I do wonder why he asked for a bench trial. Maybe I’m stereotyping, but I’d expect an Indiana jury to be pretty sympathetic to this fact pattern.
Yeah, I agree. There may have been an element of ‘you had be there” to it, but it seems like the totality of the circumstances would have given a reasonable person the impression that the car speeding towards him represented a threat to his life.
Also agree it’s weird it was a bench trial. That’s usually only advantageous to the defendant when he’s unsympathetic but has a strong legal argument
for not being culpable. That doesn’t seem to be this case.
That’s usually only advantageous to the defendant when he’s unsympathetic but has a strong legal argument
And then there's one of my favourite cases, Aleman, who had a bench trial because he'd bribed the judge.
I'm curious if there was a civil lawsuit filed as well against Turner. And what the results where.
Per Justice Molter, "It turns out Briscoe was aiming a handgun to shoot Turner just before Turner began firing."
How do we know this? Did Briscoe admit to it? If not, what sort of evidence would we have needed to retroactively justify Turner's actions? Would it suffice for there to be a handgun in the car, on Briscoe's person or within his reach? But then, would we know that Briscoe hadn't just brought it along to defend himself if, say, he started a shouting match with Turner and then Turner escalated it to violence?
"How do we know this?"
another person could have been in the car with Briscoe, and witnessed it.
Sufficient, to me, that somehow this was established in court to the extent that it entered the ruling as a material fact.
According to the decision, Briscoe drove off after being wounded, and was found by police with an unholstered gun next to him. Per his testimony,
"As for the blood-stained handgun police found on his passenger seat pointed towards the passenger window, he gave conflicting accounts of whether the gun simply fell out of its holster in the
console or whether he unholstered the gun while driving away."
Given extensive character witnesses testifying to Turner's honesty, and Briscoe's self-contradictory testimony, and what the judge thought to be the implausiblity of the gun just happening to fall out of the holster onto the seat the way it was found, the judge concluded that Briscoe was lying, and had the gun out in order to shoot it.
Which I agree with the concurrence was incorrect because there was no evidence is the record to establish whether Briscoe had drawn his weapon at the time the shooting took place - let alone whether he was pointing it at Turner to shoot him.
Turner’s honesty and Briscoe’s lack of credibility are irrelevant because their testimony was not in conflict. Briscoe said he never pointed his gun at Turner. Turner said he couldn’t see inside the car.
All the trial court really “knew in hindsight” was that Briscoe was in the car Turner shot into, and Briscoe was armed. Those facts don’t justify the shooting.
According to the opinion, the police recovered the gun covered in blood on the passenger seat, pointed towards the window (presumably the side of the car the defendant was standing on, although I don’t think it explicitly says that). Briscoe denied it, but the trial judge expressly found that he was lying and thatthe evidence showed by at least a preponderance that Briscoe had drawn the gun with “bad intent” towards the defendant.
Hard cases make bad law. Shooting first, asking questions later.
"This is a case about a good guy with a gun shooting a bad guy with a gun when the only choices were to shoot or be shot." How far away was Turner from his own car or another source of cover?
There are many cases of men put on trial for what they say is self-defense, and they are unable to tell the jury about the criminal records of the attackers. One is Daniel Penny, who was tried for choking Jordan Neely to death in a NYC subway. Another is Kyle Rittenhouse, tried for shooting some rioters near Milwaukee. The theory is that the defendants did not know the criminal records at the time.
They got acquitted, but it seems to me that their trials would have gone smoother if the court let them use the benefit of hindsight as in the above. That is, they could have presented evidence that the attackers were very dangerous, even if the full danger was not provable at the time.
I am from Indianapolis and lived in Lawrence for a couple of years. It is close to Ft Benjamin Harrison. The area has undergone a demographic shift from when I was in high school and lived in Indianapolis. I would say it is a more dangerous place now, but nothing like the south side of Marion County.
In a quiet neighborhood, the kind of driving described in the full court document would be extraordinarily unusual. The full document also notes that the car stopped at the foot of the classmate's driveway and had illegally tinted windows.
Reading those details, I think the young man's actions bordered on objectively reasonable--and certainly subjectively so.