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Second Amendment Roundup: 5th Circuit holds suppressors not to be protected "arms"
It’s time to have a serious discussion about a device that enhances the exercise of the right.
On February 6, the Fifth Circuit decided United States v. Peterson, holding that noise suppressors (aka silencers or mufflers) are not protected by the Second Amendment. Written by Chief Judge Jennifer Elrod, the court held that suppressors are not "Arms" within the Second Amendment's purview. Under Bruen, if an item is an "arm" within the text of "the right to keep and bear arms," the burden shifts to the government to demonstrate that the restriction is consistent with the historical tradition of arms regulation at the founding.
Under Heller, "the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding." To that, the Peterson court added that "to constitute an 'arm,' the object in question must be a weapon." In other words, for a modern-day instrument to be an arm under the Second Amendment's text, the object itself, standing alone, must be an arm.
Peterson argued that suppressors are "an integral part of a firearm," that "a bullet must pass through an attached [suppressor] to arrive at its intended target," and thus they meet Heller's definition as a weapon that casts and strikes. The court rejected this argument, stating: "A suppressor, by itself, is not a weapon. Without being attached to a firearm, it would not be of much use for self-defense." Of course, neither is a barrel, a trigger, a stock, or a safety, but do they have no Second Amendment protection?
The court stated that the Amendment only protects "items necessary to a firearm's operation, not just compatible with it." While a barrel is necessary, a safety is not, neither is a trigger guard, recoil pad, or sights. Are parts that make a firearm safer, more accurate, and useful not protected? They should be protected given Bruen's language, citing Caetano's decision on stun guns, that an arm "covers modern instruments that facilitate armed self-defense." The Supreme Court said "instruments" that "facilitate" armed self defense rather than are "necessary."
The Peterson court relied on United States v. Cox (10th Cir. 2018), which asserted that a suppressor "is a firearm accessory … not a weapon." Does that mean that a rifle sling, which literally enables the person to "bear" the arm, has no protection? The Supreme Court made no such distinction in Heller, Bruen, or Rahimi, none of which even use the term "accessory" or "accessories."
Three unpublished cookie-cutter decisions were also cited, two by district courts and one by an appellate court – United States v. Saleem (4th Cir. 2024). That court conceded that "silencers may serve a safety purpose to dampen sounds and protect the hearing of a firearm user or nearby bystanders," but added, "A firearm will still be useful and functional without a silencer attached…." According to this logic, parts that make a firearm more useful and more functional are not protected, which implies that laws that restrict firearm designs to be the least useful and least functional would be consistent with the Second Amendment.
The Peterson court also rejected Peterson's argument that under United States v. Miller (1939), "arms" include the "'proper accoutrements' that render the firearm useful and functional." According to the court, "the 1785 Virginia statute quoted in Miller used that language to describe items like gunpowder, lead, and cartridges—items necessary to a firearm's operation, not just compatible with it." But the Virginia statute also included "a cartridge box properly made, to contain and secure twenty cartridges fitted to his musket." And a cartridge box was necessary to the efficient operation of the firearm. The same could be said for a silencer.
Textually, a restriction on a firearm with a silencer is a restriction on an entire category of firearms – suppressed firearms. That infringes on the right of the people to keep and bear firearms that fire suppressed rounds. Heller held that an entire category of arms that Americans choose – in that case, handguns – may not be banned. Heller also held that arms that are typically possessed for lawful purposes are protected, and as shown below, suppressed firearms are rarely used in crime and are possessed in large numbers.
As the court noted, the "grand jury indicted Peterson for possession of an unregistered suppressor" under the National Firearms Act (NFA). That was a curious way to represent the indictment, in part because the word "suppressor" is not included in the NFA. To state an offense against the United States, the indictment had to allege that Peterson had an unregistered "firearm," which is defined to include "any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code)." 26 U.S.C. § 5845(a)(7).
And when we look at § 921 of Title 18, we find: "The term 'firearm' means … any firearm muffler or firearm silencer…." The latter two terms are defined in part to include "any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm…."
Looking at Peterson's brief on appeal, the indictment did indeed allege that he "knowingly received a firearm, to wit: a black cylinder which is a firearm silencer and firearm muffler, not registered to him in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record." As counsel commented in the brief: "Paradoxically, the government now argues that the device for which the defendant received and possessed is not a firearm to deny the constitutional rights of the defendant as provided for by the Second Amendment."
Unfortunately, Peterson's brief went downhill after that. It states: "Following Heller, the Appellate Courts have employed a two-step inquiry to determine whether a statute violates the Second Amendment." It then recites the test as involving, first, whether the restriction is a burden within the scope of the Amendment, and second, the duty of the court to "apply an appropriate form of means-end scrutiny…." It then states that "the government's argument is unable to bear its burden of showing the NFA satisfies the appropriate level of means-end scrutiny."
As Justice Thomas wrote in Bruen, "this two-step approach … is one step too many." While Heller "demands a test rooted in the Second Amendment's text," it does "not support applying means-end scrutiny," and instead "the government must affirmatively prove that its firearms regulation is part of the historical tradition that delimits the outer bounds of the right to keep and bear arms."
But Peterson's brief, which was filed in May 2024, fails so much as to cite Bruen, which was decided in June 2022. That was inexplicable, as counsel was on notice of the decision because the district court discussed Bruen for over a page in its Order and Reasons that denied his motion to dismiss the indictment. Counsel included the district court's opinion in the Record Excerpts on appeal.
What's more, as authority for his argument in favor of means-ends scrutiny, Peterson cited the Fourth Circuit's 2017 decision in Kolbe v. Hogan, which upheld Maryland's ban on semiautomatic rifles and which was abrogated by Bruen. Kolbe was reaffirmed by Bianchi v. Frosh, which the Supreme Court reversed and vacated for reconsideration in light of Bruen. The Fourth Circuit reaffirmed Bianchi in what is now styled Snope v. Brown, which is now before the Court and which has been relisted for Friday February 21.
Peterson goes on to argue, "As explained above, using silencers improves accuracy, reduces disorientation after firing, and helps prevent substantial and irreversible damage to users' health." Unfortunately, while true, nothing of the kind is "explained above," nor is it explained elsewhere in the brief.
The brief argues that suppressors "are (1) commonly possessed by law-abiding citizens (2) for lawful purposes" and "the government's interest in regulating silencers is particularly insubstantial given the infrequency with which they are used in crime." It continues, "Despite the presence of roughly 1.5 million registered silencers in the United States -- to say nothing of any unregistered silencers -- they are exceedingly rare instruments of criminal activity."
Yet the brief cited nothing to substantiate those claims. It could have. According to the American Suppressor Association, there are actually 3,613,983 registered suppressors as of January 2024. Ronald Turk, ATF Associate Deputy Director, wrote in 2017 that "silencers are very rarely used in criminal shootings. Given the lack of criminality associated with silencers, it is reasonable to conclude that they should not be viewed as a threat to public safety necessitating NFA classification and should be considered for reclassification under the GCA." And Paul A. Clark's Criminal Use of Firearm Silencers concluded that "the data indicates that use of silenced firearms in crime is a rare occurrence, and is a minor problem."
Counsel could have done a quick internet search and found further legal arguments and empirical information in my article Firearm Sound Moderators: Issues of Criminalization and the Second Amendment. The article includes information from the medical community about the harmful auditory effects of shooting firearms, even with ear muffs, and the need to reduce the noise at the source.
According to CDC research at a shooting range published in 2011, "The only potentially effective noise control method to reduce students' or instructors' noise exposure from gunfire is through the use of noise suppressors that can be attached to the end of the gun barrel." While published after the briefs were filed, the following statement by the audiology community published in 2024 is significant: "The American Academy of Otolaryngology-Head and Neck Surgery endorses the use of firearm suppressors as an effective method of reducing the risk of hearing loss, especially when used in conjunction with conventional hearing protective measures."
Not surprisingly, the Biden Administration's brief in Peterson repeated the usual arguments currently being made in Second Amendment litigation: suppressors are not "arms," they are "dangerous and unusual," and even if protected, the NFA's requirements of taxation, registration, and serialization are consistent with Bruen (which, the government delightfully noted, Peterson's counsel did not even cite).
Peterson's counsel did not bother to file a reply brief. Presumably his client is now serving his two-year sentence in prison for having a "black cylinder" in his safe, harming no one. Indeed, virtually all federal gun control laws constitute classic malum prohibitum, victimless crimes.
The Peterson case was a missed opportunity to have a meaningful constitutional dialogue about whether the Second Amendment protects a firearm device that enhances the right to armed self-defense by reducing harmful noise, blinding flash, and recoil. The claim that a suppressor is not even an "arm" textually could be applied to any other part of a firearm that increases safety and accuracy but is not absolutely necessary for the bare function of expelling a projectile. It is time to have a serious discussion about a device that reduces – not actually silences – noise and that would serve the interests that the Second Amendment was designed to protect.
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I guess people still believe suppressors work like in hollywood and make everyone ninja assassins.
Halbrook tries to attenuate a question which ought to remain focused. Arms have uses, not all of them legal. I do not need to get into any question about the scope of the 2A to understand that a claim for constitutional protection must be made to advance a constitutionally approved use of the arm.
For the sake of argument, self-defense is one such use. But not one well-served by a sound suppressor.
That is a tool more useful to an assassin than to a would-be self-defender, or to a sportsman, or even to a militia member.
Have you ever even fired a gun? Its not like Rambo or Terminator. Its very loud. Even a few shots can damage your hearing. Being a legitimate home defender isn't going to magically protect your ears or magic a pair of ear muffs into your hand in a home invasion but a suppressor can make home defense more effective. Suppressors don't make you into Jason Bourne what they do is attenuate deafening sounds to very loud sounds.
Take it one step further, they are a public health issue.
An actual public health issue.
If Trump REALLY wants to troll the left, he can get OSHA to mandate suppressors for all firearms as a safety measure. Possibly an exception for outdoors?
I'd love to see that.
Interesting approach but I think in a fight between an explicit clause of a federal statute and an administrative agency regulation, the statute wins.
Thus effectively making all guns NFA weapons! That will really own the those libtards!
And thereby forcing the Supreme court to finally address whether the NFA is actually constitutional now that they've finally admitted gun ownership is a civil right.
Your ignorance is deafening.
An assassin, good grief. Like Luigi?
Hollywood isn't reality.
Suppressors don't work like in the movies.
You can still hear a round being fired through a suppressor.
It simply makes it less loud.
Go watch a youtube video.
Swede425 — You do not know what you are talking about. Even in the quietest areas on earth, any noise, however loud, attenuates with distance, and eventually passes a distance threshold where it becomes inaudible. To simplify, for analytical purposes, that distance is a radius, with the exponential formula for the area of a circle providing a relevant comparator.
Within whatever circles define limits of audibility, the relative areas provide rough proxies for how many randomly-placed listeners will notice a noise. Look up the dB-reduction claims made for whatever suppressor you please, and do the high school math to make the comparison.
Note that claims of 20–35 dB noise reduction are commonplace. Remember the dB scale is logarithmic (hence inversely exponential), and the area of a circle is exponentially proportionate to its radius. So sound attenuates reverse-exponentially with distance, and area affected shrinks exponentially with the radius of audibility.
On that basis, even a 20 dB reduction predicts that only a tiny fraction of bystanders will hear a suppressed gun shot noise, compared to those who would hear it if it were not suppressed.
To a shooter, at arm's length radius, that might not be so evident. Among randomly-placed bystanders at various distances, it creates an enormous difference in how many will hear a gunshot.
A real-world analysis is complicated by unpredictable noise-barriers, varying levels of background noise, and the possibility—in urban areas a likelihood—that a third vertical dimension must be reckoned in the comparison. With all of it further complicated by a question whether a reverse-logarithmic model of noise attenuation is an adequate tool to predict human perception of the relative loudness of competing noises.
We should ban all the noise reducing technologies on cars and have them as loud as possible. After all, any reduction even from very deafening to mildly deafening is going to reduce the chance that someone notices it before it hits them!
Outstanding idea.
I picture a Ford with an unmuffled 460 V-8 and "12 mpg" painted on the side driving past Greta.
Yes, I still miss the sixties.
Advocates for the disabled (specifically, the blind) actually do complain that EVs are too quiet, making it hard for the blind to be aware of their presence.
I believe there is actually a requirement that they make a certain amount of noise. Various car makers use different sounds.
I'm not sure a 'guns must make 130db sound' rule is smart.
Good lord.
A suppressor doesn't make firing a weapon quiet.
It makes it quieter.
What are you arguing about?
That a suppressor diminishes the distance that somebody will eventually not hear the shot? Ok. Yes.
It is not anything, at all, similar to the ninja-like devices you seem to think that they are.
Somebody here for sure doesn't know what they're talking about, and he's standing in your mirror.
Given that the overwhelming majority of persons within sight or sound of a shooting din’ hear or see nuthin’, that hardly makes a difference. Remember ShotSpotters - electronic shot detectors deployed all over big cities? The false positive rates (and costs) were huge and apprehension/conviction rates were minuscule.
Acoustics make vanishingly little difference to crime solving, but matter greatly in hearing protection.
"I do not need to get into any question about the scope of the 2A to understand that a claim for constitutional protection must be made to advance a constitutionally approved use of the arm."
But what you do need to understand is that the mere fact that a firearm feature might be useful for illegal purposes doesn't mean that it is unprotected, because guns as such are useful for illegal purposes. The feature would have to have no utility for legal purposes.
Suppressors, despite your denial, have huge utility for legal purposes. Countries much more hostile to gun rights than the US do not treat suppressors in this manner, because they do have a great deal of utility for legitimate uses.
Can you, if you have time to prepare, compensate for the lack of a suppressor? Sure. Will you always have time to prepare? Will you always remember to? No, and even one shot from an unsuppressed gun can cause permanent hearing damage.
That by itself is enough justification for suppressors. You might as well propose banning air bags in cars on the theory that they make running people over less risky, and you can avoid the need for them by just not getting into collisions.
The feature would have to have no utility for legal purposes.
I do not see why a merely, "legal," purpose has any place in the analysis. I think that to avoid regulation altogether, the feature must demonstrate capacity to serve the few specifically Constitutional purposes legally attributed to the 2A. Self-defense, or militia service, for instance. If ancillary uses, such as gun range practice are allegedly a basis, then I think liberty to substitute comparable or better means to accomplish those purposes must also figure in the reckoning.
Again, you seem locked into treating gun ownership as a privilege, subject regulation that only has to satisfy rational basis review.
"Self-defense, or militia service, for instance"
I've got great news for you! The US Military has been issuing suppressors for a while (that's not the first time they have been issued). The new army rifles will all be suppressed: "All of the NGSW submissions had suppressors developed by various manufacturers as it was an Army requirement".
Fine. Issue the suppressors to private gun owners under the same military discipline applied to soldiers on active duty. Or do you think now that the guns will be quieter, the military will be passing them out for soldiers to carry around the base at will?
By the way, last time we exchanged views on this topic, you told me suppressors did not have much real world effect. Why not tell that to the military?
Still having trouble with the fact that it says "right of the People", not "right of the Militia", I see.
I'm afraid you misunderstood. I take it you don't own or haven't used suppressors?
What I said was: outside of a carefully chosen combination of 22 rimfire ammunition/gun/suppressor, suppressors aren't Hollywood quiet.
You know that aircraft noise you don't like? It is "from 120 to 140" decibels. The quietest state of the art suppressors are in the mid 130's.
I mean, I get it. I've seen the pfft...pfft stuff in movies as well. But ... that's Hollywood. There is a reason people still wear hearing protection with suppressors - a suppressed gun does less hearing damage, not none. Seriously, take off your hearing protection and stand next to a suppressed deer rifle and when your ears stop ringing you'll get it.
"I think that to avoid regulation altogether, the feature must demonstrate capacity to serve the few specifically Constitutional purposes legally attributed to the 2A. Self-defense, or militia service, for instance. If ancillary uses, such as gun range practice are allegedly a basis, then I think liberty to substitute comparable or better means to accomplish those purposes must also figure in the reckoning."
At a gun range, people know to come prepared and bring ear protection. Suppressors aren't a big deal there precisely because you're prepared. If I need a gun for self-defense, it's going to greatly hamper my effectiveness if I have to grab ear protection before firing it or have permanent ear damage.
That is a tool more useful to an assassin than to a would-be self-defender, or to a sportsman
As always...you pretend to know more than you actually do. Suppressors are very useful to sportsmen...especially those who are fond of their ability to hear clearly. Have you ever asked yourself why suppressors are legal in most of Europe, even commonly available over the counter with no regulation? Of course not...because despite all of your verbose bloviating on just about everything, you're just really not all that bright.
And if that militia member's specialty is sniping? Do you suppose a suppressor might come in kinda' handy there?
A substantial number of US armed forces units are issued suppressors on the standard infantry rifle. https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a35099495/marines-issuing-suppressors-to-troops/ Bin Laden was killed by a rifle containing one. US v Miller held that the 2nd Amendment protects the types of weapons suitable for militia use. A suppressed rifle or pistol would be such a weapon.
The 5th Circuit seems to me to be clearly wrong, Schmucks, of course suppressors are arms. as they're tools for weapons and arms includes weapons and associated tools - like scopes, for example, or bipods. The End.
The ten-page opinion (also addressing a 4A issue) cites Stephen Halbrook in a footnote defining suppressors.
As to the perils of a two-part test, supporting Thomas is fine, but was a sole dissenter in the last opinion. Not an ideal spokesperson.
I agree that it is logical that "firearm accessories" should be deemed protected. Likewise, ink and keyboards have 1A implications. And, everything here won't be completely "necessary" to carry out the right. But, that isn't how the 1A works.
This would not completely end the question if there is some clear reason to criminalize suppressors. But, the approach applied in the brief discussion in the opinion is unsatisfactory.
As suggested, it could be helpful if the issue is given more close appellate consideration.
"This would not completely end the question if there is some clear reason to criminalize suppressors."
But there is: If you can't stop people from owning guns, you can at least punish them by damaging their hearing!
I joke, at least a little. But there are a lot of judges out there who, if they lack the gall to just stand Bruen on it's head, are going to minimize the effects for all they're worth. And the Court hasn't exactly made clear that they're opposed to the lower courts doing that.
Agreeing with Thomas in dissent fun and all, but that's not the current law of the land.
I'm not clear how that actually constituted disagreement with what I said. I'm referring to the way the Court has been avoiding taking these 2nd amendment cases.
They could have been policing lower court 'interpretations' of Bruen all along, they haven't been, they've been avoiding 2nd amendment cases and letting the lower courts run wild. That tells the lower courts they're not yet serious.
You cited Bruen, and interpret it as Thomas does.
That's not the current law.
Your Bruen policing is based on a vision for the 2A that doesn't seem to be the operable one.
Oh, dear! I interpret a decision as its author does! Woe is me! How will I ever live that down? [/sarc]
You can depart a long ways from Thomas' interpretation of his own decision, and still conclude a lot of the lower courts are abusively misinterpreting Bruen in an effort to minimize its impact.
I'll grant you a high probability that on at least some fronts, a majority of the Court will join them in that abuse. Since 3 of the justices are already committed to doing so, it only takes two defectors for any given case to produce that result.
The situation we have here is that neither side is confident how most of these cases will turn out; The 'liberal' 3 will not vote for cert. because they don't want more precedents upholding the 2nd, and the most conservative 4 will not vote for cert. because they don't want more precedents failing to uphold it.
Only cases that are total no-brainers one way or the other will get through that gauntlet.
I repeat what I said last time you tried this argument: Thomas does not have any ownership of the opinion just because he wrote it. It's only the opinion because six justices signed onto it. And five of those six — each of whose votes count equally with Thomas's, and collectively count 5x as much as Thomas's — disagree with Thomas.
You're welcome to your opinion about what the law *should be*.
But when talking about what the law is, you're no longer in opinion land, unless you're the Supreme Court.
The fact that you're now off in prognosticating about what the Court might do in the future shows you don't really get this fact/opinion distinction.
You would get *wrecked* in a collaborative environment if you took a document that required co-signatories and declared that since you drafted it, you're the owner of what it 'really' says.
There is a reason to criminalize suppressors. More than one reason, actually, having to do with gun crime. And also to do with wise management of public gun policy.
Whether the effect is intended or not, suppressors exponentially suppress awareness of urban gunfire. In that way, they encourage unwise integration of gunfire and dense urban populations.
Suppressors defeat technology already in use—and perhaps not yet fully developed—to surveil urban areas for gun violence with microphone networks. Suppressors undeniably are a tool to empower common criminals and would-be assassins, and to hamper law enforcement.
Suppressors are unnecessary to preserve hearing among legitimate shooters. Those remain at liberty to protect themselves absolutely from gun noise at the receiving end—by protecting their ears. If you want to practice shooting, you can make yourself impervious to hearing loss by sticking a penny's worth of toilet paper in your ears. Or better yet, equip yourself—at far less expense than the cost of a suppressor to fit each gun you own—with professionally engineered hearing protection. And every method of receiving-end hearing protection works fine in cases where suppressors are generally unavailable, such as for shotgun shooting.
The noise from un-suppressed gunfire is of course one reason it is hard to site outdoor gun ranges, except in areas remote from dense populations. Neighbors do not like the noise for its own sake. But they also are reminded by the noise that bullets are flying around. They remain legitimately concerned about the possibility that stray bullets can happen.
Not all shooters will always be perfect models of gun discipline. Some will be feckless. Some will be would-be criminals, out to improve their criminal skills. Nobody needs armed self-defense more than a would-be violent criminal.
So neighbors in settled areas rightly view gun ranges as attractive nuisances. They are better-entitled to that view than any shooter insisting on imposing against it. The neighbors must sacrifice peace and a sense of security permanently. The shooters sacrifice nothing but a bit of convenience, episodically.
The neighbors are where they are. The shooters are at liberty to find more appropriate sites for practice, and to go there. Thus, suppressors become a means to facilitate the nuisance, while masking its presence. To encourage that is unwise public policy.
There are so many more-effective, less-expensive means available to accomplish legitimate hearing protection. It thus becomes evident that gun enthusiasts who favor suppressors do so for other reasons.
Those gun enthusiasts who advocate suppressors—by no means all of them—want to facilitate the one activity which only suppressors can accomplish—which means to facilitate shooting while suppressing public awareness that it is happening. But wherever shooting is happening, private safety, public interest, and public safety are better served by public awareness than by suppression.
As usual, you reason about guns as though the 2nd amendment wasn't a real constitutional right. You're absolutely committed to treating gun ownership as a mere privilege, subject to any restriction the government can invent a vaguely plausible excuse for imposing.
Not to mention that no one using a firearm in an emergency situation is going to call time-out, extract and don their hearing protection, then return to the emergency before firing.
Our local rifle range was built in 1913 or so. It was then well out of town. Now suburbia has grown right up to it. I will wager the new neighbors don't share your objection to only being able to hear shots for a mile instead of 5 miles or whatever.
Kinda odd that you want to minimize airport noise, but want to maximize range noise.
My in-laws live in the woods near a firing range. Adds some spice to try and guess what's being fired.
I'm very bad at that game.
In this state gun ranges are aggressively grandfathered in; If you move near an existing one, noise complaints will be completely ignored on the basis that you knew what you were getting into.
From soldier's biographies, they get really good at distinguishing one kind of gun (artillery, ...) from another, as in 'that's a Mauser' vs 'that's a Garand'. I can't do that just from the sound, to be sure. There are some pretty good incentives for an infantryman to acquire the skill, I expect.
"Suppressors defeat technology already in use—and perhaps not yet fully developed—to surveil urban areas for gun violence with microphone networks."
I don't think the value of such networks has been demonstrated to be significant. See: https://tinyurl.com/mr2v65hu
Also see below: there seems to be little criminal activity that includes the use of suppressors ... making the inability to detect them not much of a factor in public safety.
"Suppressors undeniably are a tool to empower common criminals and would-be assassins, and to hamper law enforcement."
Do you have evidence to disprove the claims in the original article that "the data indicates that use of silenced firearms in crime is a rare occurrence, and is a minor problem."
And who is it that is advocating making suppressors legal while ignoring a legitimate hampering of law enforcement? It seems to me that's quite a bold and unsupported claim. If the manufacturers of suppressors were counting on sales to criminals, they'd have to be pretty incompetent: the low usage of suppressors in crimes would hardly make criminals a legitimate potential source of revenue.
"There are so many more-effective, less-expensive means available to accomplish legitimate hearing protection."
From the article being commented on:
"According to CDC research at a shooting range published in 2011, 'The only potentially effective noise control method to reduce students' or instructors' noise exposure from gunfire is through the use of noise suppressors that can be attached to the end of the gun barrel.'"
I don't see where you've provided any evidence to disprove that.
"I don't think the value of such networks has been demonstrated to be significant."
And to the extent they have demonstrated effectiveness, they're being abandoned because they're effectively confirmed that high crime minority areas had a lot of gunshots, which was a politically prohibited discovery.
I don't see where you've provided any evidence to disprove that.
The highest authoritative sources Lathrop recognizes are the voices in his head.
As developments encroach on shooting ranges, new residents, forewarned of the ranges when they buy, nonetheless raise objections that the noise disturbs their right to quiet surroundings. If you’re suggesting that those who knowingly move within hearing range of shooting ranges have the right to demand the ranges be shut down, many states have enacted shooting range protection laws that evidence disagreement.
Ear muffs only suppress sound so much - reducing the blast sound with suppressors is very much a matter of hearing safety.
Sure, distant shooting in semi-rural/rural areas can be directionally heard. Gun shots in urban environments can rarely be located, even using high-tech Shotspotter triangulation. The false positive rate (and costs) are high and apprehension/conviction rates very low. The low true positive rate is much more often verified by spent casing found rather than witnesses - nobody heard or saw anything in most urban shootings.
I'm fine with the back and forth here.
It is the sort of things that I would examine instead of the dubious avoidance technique of the opinion.
Inherent to a gun is neither that it is noisy or that it is silent.
Would the law ban a too loud gun? Why then are glass packs on teenage cars not outlawed. Typical lawyer bullshit
I don’t buy this, seems like the same logic would allow bans on sights.
That's exactly it: As he says above, this logic would permit banning anything but an absolute minimalist gun.
How can you shoot a Mime without a Silencer?
I always thought you used finger guns on mimes.
idk. I have suppressors.
They are a (hearing) safety feature and should be decriminalized and its mindlessly dumb they are regulated.
That said, are they protected by the 2A? I am unconvinced. Federal law defines them as firearms, so there is that. But they feel more like an mlok rail, an accessory (no I don't have one on my EDC, its cumbersome).
I think the difficulty here is that the law can't have it both ways: the NFA call them firearms, treat them as such and require a background check, while at the same time claiming they are unprotected by the 2A.
I am not expecting the Supreme Court or any other court to do what legislators need to do: decriminalize them.
I do worry about these cases making bad law, and setting binding precedents.
2nd amendment jurisprudence is still, even after Bruen, heavily influenced by "But, guns!" reasoning. Judges do not reason about the 2nd amendment the way they do other constitutional rights, it's subject to a different sort of reasoning based on a deep seated antipathy towards firearms ownership.
That's not going to change easily, especially given what the 'elite' law schools are like now.
It would change easily if SCOTUS wanted it to. But it's clear to me that except for Alito, Thomas, and maybe Gorsuch, they don't actually want it to change. The other 3 "conservative" judges want to make a splash, but not actually effect change.
Whatever the wisdom of the policy, the law absolutely can have it both ways. The terms of the 2A mean whatever they mean, and Congress is not free to redefine those terms (other than by amendment, duh), but Congress is free to define terms for the purpose of Congressional legislation however it chooses. It can define firearm to mean, "any device that does yada yada yada… and also puppies" if it wants to.
To pick a less silly example: when the constitution describes the powers of (and restrictions on) the "states," it means one of the [now] 50 states of the U.S. But Congress is free to pass a law that affects states that defines "state" to also include the District of Columbia. There's no contradiction there. The same word can mean different things in different contexts.
This logic would seem to make integrally suppressed guns OK.
I guarantee that if you try that approach, the very same judges will change their tune.
okay,that was my point.
Gun means gun.
Most judges act in bad faith on this issue. It's that simple.
Much as I dislike the result, I can't disagree with the court's analysis. Suppressors are indeed akin to slings (that is, non-essential accessories) and while prohibitions on useful accessories may be (and in this case, are) fundamentally unwise, that's not a constitutional problem. The legislature is allowed to be stupid. The fix we're supposed to follow is to vote the morons out and elect better (or at least less bad) legislators who will repeal the counter-productive rule.
It's not obvious to me that, say, slings or holsters or cleaning rods or telescopic sights aren't protected by the 2A. Just off the top, I'd think the whole package is protected. Can you flesh out the argument that they aren't?
Your argument (that every possible accessory must be protected) is unlimited and proves too much. To take a silly example, consider a holster made out of Black Rhinoceros hide (Black Rhinos being on the endangered species list). Since constitutional protections trump mere statutes including the Endangered Species Act, the implication is that such a holster must be allowed. It also implies that you must allow the most egregiously dangerous and poorly constructed firearms since again the 2A trumps mere safety regulations.
That cannot be the case, therefore the premise (that all accessories share unlimited protection) must be false. Essential parts (such as ammo) must be absolutely protected but non-essential accessories must enjoy a much lower level of protection if they get any protection at all.
I think Brett's analogy below to the way we deal with 1A infringements is entirely appropriate. Even minor infringements should be viewed with deep skepticism but they are not automatically disallowed. Freedom of the press does not, for example, forbid the requirement for safety railings around printing presses or restrictions on allowable types of ink.
"Your argument (that every possible accessory must be protected)"
Not my argument. I agree there must be a limit somewhere. It seems to me that that slings, holsters, cleaning rods, and telescopic sights are inside the limit. You seem to disagree, so I'm trying to get a feel for where you put the limit, and the reasoning for it.
Mine is that to use a gun for the protected defensive or militia uses you kinda need a sling or holster. That's why the army and police forces use them. And to me the army generally issuing suppressors also means they are inside the line.
I actually think we might agree where the line is (essential). I think we just disagree over what counts as meeting that line. Slings are not in fact essential. For years, my army-issued M16 did not have one. They are useful for some scenarios but get in the way for others. Ditto for holsters. I think you're on stronger grounds that cleaning rods are essential since they are the only way to maintain the weapon.
But, again using the 1A analogy, that just means that restrictions should be subject to 'strict scrutiny'. Even an essential cleaning rod can't be made in a way that's defective and likely to injure the user. A blanket restriction on holsters would not survive strict scrutiny but a restriction on holsters made out of endangered species would.
"Slings are not in fact essential. For years, my army-issued M16 did not have one. They are useful for some scenarios but get in the way for others. Ditto for holsters"
Without a sling or holster, what do you do when climbing an embankment, helping carry a casualty, etc, etc?
What's a policeman without a holster supposed to do? Just keep the gun in his hand (while driving!)? Just stick in his belt without the trigger covered?
All scenarios where it is useful. Not issuing slings was ... unwise in my opinion. But I was a lowly butterbar at the time and they didn't ask my opinion. Yet we still managed to do our jobs.
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But that is the patent error of saying If speech is invovled it is Freedom of Speech case, if a gun is involved it is a 2A case.
Thomas in the cross-burning case should have enlightened millions incl you
The counter argument is that the amendment doesn't say "utterly abolish", it says "infringe". "act so as to limit or undermine (something); encroach on." You infringe a right when you start to impact it, not when you finish abolishing it.
We do NOT approach the 1st amendment in this way, you notice. Anything that even starts to get in the way of free speech is heavily disfavored.
Anything that even starts to get in the way of free speech is heavily disfavored.
Though there seems to be a long list of kinds of speech that somehow aren't protected, notwithstanding the clear text of 1A
Which is, (Except for the commercial speech exception, which is a product of anti-Lochnerism.) perfectly in keeping with the Bruen court's approach: You start out with a flat bar on infringement, but then are permitted to demonstrate by founding era practice that some particular exercise wasn't considered at the time of adoption to fall under the right.
Translation: they passed a law and then ignored it,
But a right is immaterial you reduce it to the material gun.
That is usually covered in pre-Law.
Didn't the SCOTUS ruling on Garland v. Cargill already decide this question?