The Volokh Conspiracy
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"It Is a Fact That the Body of Water … Is Called the Gulf of America"?
Place names in American English are defined by what American English speakers call them, not what the President tells us to call them.
I hope to blog soon about the First Amendment questions raised by President Trump's excluding the AP from the Oval Office and Air Force One because of the AP's refusal to call the Gulf of Mexico "the Gulf of America." (Turns out the precedents on this subject are complicated.) [UPDATE: Just posted that analysis.] But I wanted to start by briefly discussing the underlying language question. Here's an excerpt from Wednesday's White House press briefing:
QUESTION: But isn't it retaliatory in nature, is the argument, because the reason that the AP was barred, which they said was because they're not using the phrase Gulf of America, they're using Gulf of Mexico in line with their standards. And so the question here is, is this setting a precedent that this White House will retaliate against reporters who don't use the language that you guys believe reporters should use?
And how does that align with the First Amendment commitment that you were just talking about?
KAROLINE LEAVITT: I was very upfront in my briefing on day one that if we feel that there are lies being pushed by outlets in this room, we are going to hold those lies accountable. And it is a fact that the body of water off the coast of Louisiana is called the Gulf of America. And I'm not sure why news outlets don't want to call it that, but that is what it is. The secretary of Interior has made that the official designation, and the Geographical Identification Names Server and Apple has recognized that, Google has recognized that.
Pretty much every other outlet in this room has recognized that body of water as the Gulf of America. And it's very important to this administration that we get that right, not just for people here at home, but also for the rest of the world. Sure.
Likewise, here's a Tweet from the White House Deputy Chief of Staff Taylor Budowich:
The Associated Press continues to ignore the lawful geographic name change of the Gulf of America. This decision is not just divisive, but it also exposes the Associated Press' commitment to misinformation. While their right to irresponsible and dishonest reporting is protected by the First Amendment, it does not ensure their privilege of unfettered access to limited spaces, like the Oval Office and Air Force One. Going forward, that space will now be opened up to the many thousands of reporters who have been barred from covering these intimate areas of the administration. Associate Press journalists and photographers will retain their credentials to the White House complex.
This, it seems to me, just isn't right. The name for a geographical feature is a linguistic and sociological question: In a particular language (or dialect), a thing's name is what speakers of that language call it. Sometimes speakers have different names for the same thing, in which case each is a legitimate name. (Among American speakers of English, for instance, the U.S. can be called "America," "the U.S.," "the States," and more.)
It is not a legal question that can be settled by a "lawful geographic name change," or a scientific question, or a question that can be resolved by the government. Pennsylvania may call itself a Commonwealth, but it's also a state. If the Governor of Pennsylvania insisted that everyone should call it a Commonwealth, we could still continue to call it a state. (As it happens, the U.S. Constitution calls all the states, expressly including Pennsylvania, "states," and the Pennsylvania Constitution also refers to it as a state at times, but that's not the important point; the important point is what American speakers of English call Pennsylvania.)
Likewise, the government of Turkey apparently wants people to call the country Turkiye, but that imposes no obligation on English speakers who have long called it Turkey—just as the Turks have no obligation to call the country they call "İngiltere" by its English name of "England." It's not a "lie" when Americans call the country Turkey, no matter what the Turkish government thinks. It's not "a fact that the" country that occupies that territory "is called" Turkiye. Indeed, it's a fact that it's not generally called Turkiye in English (though perhaps one day it might be, if English speakers eventually decide to go along with this).
Likewise, it's not a "lie," "irresponsible," or "dishonest" when people call the Gulf of Mexico "the Gulf of Mexico," and it's not a fact that it's called "the Gulf of America." It may be called that by President Trump and his subordinates in the Executive Branch, but he doesn't get to determine what's a "fact" on this for the rest of us.
Now that seems to me particularly clear for geographical features that are mostly outside the U.S., such as the Gulf. (What would we think if the Governor of Kentucky announced that the Ohio River should henceforth be called the Kentucky River?) But I don't think my point relies on that. The English name of "Turkey" isn't subject to the control of the Turkish government, and the English name of places even within the U.S. isn't subject to the control of the U.S. government.
When Mount McKinley was renamed Mount Denali by the Obama Administration, that didn't make it a "lie" for people to keep calling it Mount McKinley. The "fact," I expect, was that the mountain had two names at that point, with some people calling it one thing and others another. Now it's been renamed back to Mount McKinley, and the fact remains that it's both Mount McKinley and Mount Denali.
To be sure, over time place names do change, and a governmental renaming can help influence that. I expect very few people still call "New York" "New Amsterdam," except as some sort of historical joke. And of course a governmental decision can lead to one name having one political connotation and another having another. (In this respect, it's those decisions that are "divisive.") I am told, for instance, that this is so with the Burma vs. Myanmar question, and with Bombay vs. Mumbai.
Again, whether the President may retaliate this way against a media entity that doesn't go along with his wishes is a separate matter, which I hope to blog about soon. [UPDATE: See here.] I also appreciate that the whole dispute is likely mostly absurdist political theater.
But, theater or not, framing this as a matter of "lies" or "dishonest[y]" or "misinformation" or rejection of "lawful" decisions strikes me as wrong. It mischaracterizes the way place names actually operate in English (and I expect in most other languages). And it seeks to arrogate to the government—or, more precisely, to the President—power over the English language and its speakers.
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If enough people call it the Gulf of America the cost of the groceries is going to go down!
The AP should be summarily ignored by everyone after their stylebook embraced the use of “they” as a singular pronoun.
“The Oxford English Dictionary traces singular they back to 1375”
https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they?tl=true
Yes but I would not expect someone like Riva to know enough about the English language to understand that.
Agreed!
On "their" not being singular.
And you too would be wrong.
Not to mention capitalizing black but not white.
You care about inconsequential things.
You consider racism "inconsequential"? I find that distressing.
I think whinging about capitalization choices as though it's the same thing as racism smacks of the same overthinking as microaggression training does.
Huh? I said the AP should be ignored. How's that caring?
There are good reasons to eliminate gendered pronouns from English. They are outdated and some of the last remnants of gendered language in an otherwise non-gendered English.
English literature teaches a different lesson. "They walks in beauty, like the night..." somehow doesn't sound right.
Riva, you stepped in it. Shakespeare himself used the singular they.
https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/grammar/pronouns/gendered_pronouns_and_singular_they.html#:~:text=Additionally%2C%20in%20Much%20Ado%20about,%E2%80%9D%20(see%20OED%20Online).
You're an idiot. I wish there were another way to say it but there isn't. That's simply an academic opinion piece trying to justify the modern pronoun insanity. Shakespeare was being stylistic, not engaging in some insane gender neutral advocacy.
Why not?
Because the poem was inspired by the beauty of a woman. And the English language uses she as the pronoun to refer to a woman. And while I'm not a literary expert, I note that she was used quite frequently by Shakespeare when the reference was to a woman (and he wasn't even a biologist) notwithstanding some peculiar isolated idiomatic uses of they as a generic singular for stylistic purposes.
If your point is that it would be strange if Byron had used a gender-neutral pronoun, that’s obviously correct, if rather trivial.
Shakespeare used a lot of words that we either don’t use today or use differently. Just sticking to pronouns, I’m not aware of anyone who’s mad that we don’t use “thee” any more.
That means we MUST ban Spanish -- La Casa, El Tren...
Kind of illustrating MollyGodiva’s point, aren’t you? English doesn’t use grammatical gender for inanimate objects and seems to get along just fine. What’s the utility of using it for people or animals?
Actually, it does. Ships are "she."
English doesn't have grammatical gender for inanimate objects for the simple reason that the purpose of grammatical gender in English is to communicate the sex of the subject, and inanimate objects don't have sexes.
Animals and people? They do. So grammatical gender allows you to communicate additional information about the subject without using more words. That has obvious utility.
The problem recently is a bunch of people demanding that other people communicate false information about their sex.
Allows doesn't mean mandates.
You got a problem with leaving it ambiguous if someone wants?
But why is that piece of information so important that it needs to be communicated as part of the language itself, as opposed to any of the myriad other kinds of information that could be conveyed about the subject?
No argument from me! A problem that would be fully obviated by a single third person pronoun.
Well, on this planet, we have men and we have women and sometimes we may need a pronoun when don't know their names. Would you like to debate whether water is wet next?
But why do we need pronouns that are different for those two types of people (and not for any other of the infinite ways we can divide people)? What do we do when we don’t know the names or the sex of the people we’re talking about?
There are only two genders. Someday, when you grow up, you'll understand this.
This is actually a dumb response. English doesn’t have a gender-neutral third person pronoun. “They” is much cleaner than “he/she”. It has nothing to do with the cultural wars— it’s useful and in fact how language naturally develops.
You seem to know something about dumb responses if the above is any example.
"This is actually a dumb response. English doesn’t have a gender-neutral third person pronoun. 'They' is much cleaner than he/she. It has nothing to do with the cultural wars— it’s useful and in fact how language naturally develops."
Please note that this comment uses both "it" and "it's."
"English doesn’t have a gender-neutral third person pronoun.
Yes, it does -- "it."
He, she, it. Comes from the Latin.
Neither “he” nor “she” nor “it” come from Latin—which, incidentally, also doesn’t have a words for “he”, “she”, or “it”.
It does have three cases, masculine, feminine, and neuter.
Latin has seven cases, none of which are masculine, feminine, or neuter.
“The name for a geographical feature is a linguistic and sociological question : In a particular language (or dialect), a thing's name is what speakers of that language call it.”
Tell that to Mount McKinley, or Ayer’s Rock. Tell that to Saigon.
He literally covered McKinley.
Plenty of (most?) people who live in HCMC still call it Saigon. I lived there for a year.
Sorry, EV -- places *have* official "legal" names -- see: https://geonames.nga.mil/geonames/GNSHome/welcome.html
The next President can call it "the Great Dysmal Swamp" and legally, that is what it will be known as. Maine dealt with this in terms of Nigger Island and Squaw Mountain -- they aren't allowed to be called that anymore.
Didn't the AP recognize this with Denali?
Petty, perhaps, but this is not "editorial judgement."
He literally covered Denali. Do you people read?
What did the AP do when Nobama issued his decree -- not now...
"places *have* official "legal" name"
"Nobama"
If you are going to insist on people using official legal names, you might consider doing so yourself.
You are, in fact, allowed to call them that if you want to (and I’m guessing you do).
If the government has an official name for something, then that affects what government officials are going to call that thing. I don't see how that places any legal obligations on anyone else to use that name.
Maybe not in their casual communications but the government can certainly impose legal obligations on use of that name in official communications. For example, consider court documents where use of an incorrect legal name can get your complaint summarily dismissed. (The fact that they might give leave to amend doesn't change your obligation to use the correct name.)
Yes, of course you are making a valid point. If I practiced in an area of that that related to this, I would start using "Gulf of America" in my legal documents...while also dropping a footnote, noting that "Gulf of Mexico" is used all over the rest of the world.
I think the real issue is that it makes the Trump White House look like pussies. Little pathetic spoiled whiners. While the AP might be ill-advised to keep using Gulf of Mexico, like the 99.99% of the world does, it is an outright lie to call what the AP is doing to be a lie. It just isn't.
I'll also note (to expand on what Eugene wrote in his OP) that the official name of the country is Myanmar. It stopped being Burma back in 1989 or 1990. In spite of that; the US refers to the country as Burma is all or almost all contexts, including in official documents. Is the Trump 2 administration lying when it continues to do that? Were the Biden, Trump 1 (et al) administrations lying when they used 'Burma?'
Putting aside the wisdom of (or lack thereof) changing the name to Gulf of America; I wish someone would take Trump and his spokespeople aside and gently say to them, "Don't punish the AP. Please stop being fucking asshole, and stop being so petty. You won the election...stop trying so hard to look like losers."
Wrong attitude. You should be encouraging them.
"The "fact," I expect, was that the mountain had two names at that point, with some people calling it one thing and others another. "
As a climber, can confirm. People were long used to it being called McKinley, lotsa old books had that name, etc, etc.
Is the F-16 the 'Fighting Falcon', the 'Viper', or the 'Lawn Dart'?
The answer is all three; the manufacturer likes the first, F-16 pilots use the second (IMHE), and F-15 pilots like the third. If you hear a B-52 described as a Stratofortress rather than a BUFF, you're probably reading a press relief.
What's ironic is that Trump here is taking a page from the political correctness handbook: 'I have renamed something and will insist everyone adopt my new usage'. It's no different than having a cow because someone said 'Indians' instead of 'Native Americans' or 'First Peoples' or whatever is in vogue today. (except, of course, that the political factions have reversed). If you bridled at PC 1.0 you should also object to PC 2.0.
Native American and American Indian both seem to be okay. We have a bunch of campus organizations and they use them in the organization names about 50/50. I tend to use Native American to all those descended from the peoples who were in the Americas at the time of Columbus's voyage, and American Indians for those Native Americans who aren't one of the Eskimo/Aleut/Inuit peoples, but nobody has to follow me.
I use "Native American" for anyone whose ancestors were here in 1700....
You are, of course, lying: you absolutely do not say that to other people in real life. But it would be pretty edgy if you did!
I think this is actually more subtle trolling on Trump's part than people can generally bring themselves to admit. In addition, of course, to being deliberate chaff to overload the media's capacity for outrage.
So, the name of a thing in English is what English speakers call it, and the government can't force the AP to call it something else. The AP will, as a matter of principle, insist on calling things by their proper names in English.
Cool, who would have guessed it was that easy to get the AP to agree to stop calling Lia Thomas a woman!
Does it fail to occur to you that it is highly inappropriate for the President of the US to troll and intentionally cause outrage just for the sake of causing outrage?
Goober was telling us months ago that Trump had no interest in Project 2025, so that gives you an idea of the kind of "intellect" we're dealing with here.
The other MAGA twats apparently intuit that this whole "Gulf of America" thing is so absurd on its face that they just deflect. As for the Goobster, well - it's 4D chess!
MollyGodiva : " .... it is highly inappropriate for the President of the US to troll ....?
Are you kidding? Trolling is the very reason Brett voted for Trump. Only RINOs don't troll.
I find his trolling amusing, sure. The bestest part of it is the left ALWAYS rising to the bait. Every single time.
I think this is actually more subtle trolling on Trump's part than people can generally bring themselves to admit. In addition, of course, to being deliberate chaff to overload the media's capacity for outrage.
Steve Bannon once had said that the way to beat the media was to "flood the zone with shit." But the media is not the part of society that gets overwhelmed by all of this MAGA/Trump trolling. It is the general public. Whatever limits media organizations and professional journalists have on their ability to keep track of everything politicians are saying and doing, the limits of the average person are far less than that. By the way, this tactic serves to distract Trump supporters just as effectively as it distracts voters that oppose him. We see it among Trump fans and defenders here. If MAGA voters are always jumping from one thing to another as they cheer on Trump and defend him from his critics, then they aren't examining any one claim, action, or policy deeply enough to find out if Trump and his surrogates are really doing what they voted for him to do. Except for the Trump voters that understand completely what these tactics are doing, because they want Trump to be able to do the things that benefit them at the expense of everyone else, Trump voters included.
Cool, who would have guessed it was that easy to get the AP to agree to stop calling Lia Thomas a woman!
QED
As I lack a Bloomberg subscription, I have been unable to read the original Bannon interview, but while most people seem to be interpreting his suggestion as relating to influencing the media, I suspect the "zone" he was aiming at was a little more local, i.e., the MAGAzone.
Bannon certainly knows that he cannot influence the entire media simply by flooding the rightwing part of it with shit. Everyone else just looks over and notes that Bannon has covered everybody and everything on the right with their own excrement and shrugs. The media in general is not going to suddenly start questioning their own eyes and trusted sources simply because the rightwing ones have debased themselves even more than usual.
Instead, Bannon probably recognized that, while he cannot change the whole world, he can have an influence on the MAGAzone by following his stated strategy of filling that "zone" with shit, because those people already stay in the zone and rarely if ever stray from it. Suitably disoriented (the technical term is "deranged"), the MAGAzens can do anything else but follow The Leader to the promised land.
Do you still call it the Gulf of Mexico?
Thats deadnaming the Gulf of America. Stop it! 🙂
Ha! Now please answer the question.
Progs go on a renaming spree for decades renaming countless terms to the point where the language is significantly changed from this alone: I sleep
Trump changes a few names back and sometimes changes names to something that makes more sense: Red demon eyes
Tu quoque as a worldview.
Projection is the bedrock fundamental modus operandi of progs where on virtually every single issue they accuse/cry about someone doing something with a mountain behind them of clearly visible proof of them doing the exact same except objectively much more and much worse five seconds ago and their enablers/surrogates in the media pretending it doesn't exist. And strategically using this double standard as a way to win the game. I won't stop pointing that out.
Dude, you’re soaking in it!
What game?
Gotta break it to you: It was never called the Gulf of America, so he's not changing that one back.
I didn't say he reverted the GoM back to an original name. He mostly is just renaming things back but yes the Gulf of America is a new name that makes more sense than the gulf of mexico. Which is more than you can say about the other side.
I personally don't care what its named and would concede this in an instant for the large shift in our language (pronoun usage, indian names, banning terms like master/plantation/women euphemism treadmill retarded disabled differently abled homeless unhoused, renaming birds due to 'colonialism' which is just the tip of the iceberg that seems to have largely escaped the attention of people as they are crying over this.
https://resize.allw.mn/1028x0/filters:format(webp)/filters:quality(70)/content/2013/12/02064106_2027_599x418.jpg
Trump changes a few names back and sometimes changes names to something that makes more sense...
When did it ever make sense to name a U.S. military base after Confederate Generals that literally made war on the United States - which is one of the two acts that define treason in the Constitution? WTF did McKinley do that had anything to do with Alaska that justified naming a mountain there after him? Articles I find, like this one, point to how it first got called Mt. McKinley by a gold prospector in 1896 that liked McKinley's support of the gold standard. McKinley would be elected later that year nothing seems to connect him to Alaska in any way.
By the way, the Alaska state legislature had passed a resolution asking the federal government to recognize Denali as its name in 1975, as the local indigenous people had been calling it that for thousands of years, and white Alaskan residents would use both names. Obama didn't pull it out of nowhere.
As I have said before, naming military installations after folks who waged war on the United States makes about as much sense as naming an American airport for Khalid Sheikh Muhammed.
So you two think reconciliation shouldn't be a thing? Were you equally dismissive of Nelson Mandela's efforts?
The point of naming some military installations for Confederate generals (and others for Union generals) was to drive home that the war was over and that we would not engage in the kinds of fruitless recriminations and cycles of violence that poison all hope of healing after a civil war. We were one country before the Civil War and one country again after. The soldiers on both sides served with bravery and distinction. They deserve to be honored regardless of the evils of their political masters.
I'm curious about this - do you have a couple of examples by chance? Ft Bragg was established in 1918 and Ft Hood in 1942, so they seem a bit late for post-bellum olive branches.
I spot checked a few others from this list and they all seemed to date to WWI or WWII as well.
The work of reconciliation was not merely in the immediate post-war years but persisted for years after. Yes, many of those camps were established during the build-up to WW1. And we were still struggling to reunite as a country then. Remember, that was only 40 or 50 years after the Civil War. It was still in the lifetimes of many people.
To the naming details:
The War Department had eight rules for naming of new institutions. The first was that the name should "represent a person from the locale of the troops stationed there" and the second was that it could not be the name of a "prominent person still living". The official guidance further said that names should focus on "Federal commanders for camps of divisions from northern States and of Confederates for camps of divisions from southern States".
Your timeline is made up — none of these bases were 40 years after the Civil War, half of them were around World War **II**, not WWI — and is still silly. Nobody was struggling to reunite as a country then. The youngest adults from the Civil War era would've been septuagenarians when the first bases were named after traitors.
David, the WWII draft only passed by ONE vote.
They needed to get the bases built, and they needed Southern support. What would you do?
"the WWII draft only passed by ONE vote"
Is this the "Selective Training and Service Act of 1940" that passed the Senate 58-31 and the House 233-124?
"they needed Southern support"
I'm curious why you think that the South didn't support WWII?
More completely made up facts by Dr. Ed.
After the WWII Draft was passed with substantial majority FOR, the original draft one year Tour of Duty was extended by the House by a vote of 203 FOR to 202 AGAINST. One reason I often fact check my memory before posting.
Here's an article well after the fact but published by the military itself. https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2015/06/24/1-star-posts-named-for-soldiers-not-confederate-cause/
I should note that a more cynical take on the naming choices in the run-up to WW1 would note that the military during that time a) needed to recruit lots of young men and b) needed support of local politicians to give up the vast swaths of land needed for training posts. Appealing to people from local history supports both goals.
Here's an article well after the fact but published by the military itself.
Was the 1-star General in a PR post in 2015 offering any primary source documentation that all of those bases were named in any sort of spirit of "reconciliation" decades after the Civil War ended?
Besides, what would have done more to serve "reconciliation", do you think? Acknowledging the evils of slavery and following through with the words adopted into the Constitution guaranteeing equal protection of the law for all people in the U.S., or giving up on Reconstruction and allowing Jim Crow to metastasize so that the losers of that war and the generations that would follow them could still claim some power over Blacks?
Ever read Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural Address?
The part where he called for the U.S. military to honor the traitors whose asses they’d just kicked must have been left out of the copy I got in school. Or the ones online.
The point of naming some military installations for Confederate generals (and others for Union generals) was to drive home that the war was over and that we would not engage in the kinds of fruitless recriminations and cycles of violence that poison all hope of healing after a civil war.
That is one possible explanation, but as Absaroka points out, the timing doesn't fit with it at all. What does fit better with the timing of these efforts to name schools, military bases, and so on after Confederate leaders? Georgia, for instance, replaced its state flag design with one that featured the Confederate battle flag as its dominant feature. When? 1956. Interesting timing, huh? How many of the public schools named after Confederate leaders got those names in the 50s and 60s, do you think?
Those who led troops to engage in treason in service of human chattel slavery do not deserve to be honored.
That is utterly false, for two reasons. First, "bravery" is not in fact something to honor. Mohamed Atta might have been brave. So what? (Now, if they had bravely refused to fight for the traitor states, that would've been something to honor.) Second, the bases weren't named after "soldiers;" they were named after officers.
And, of course, your ridiculous claim about reconciliation remains ridiculous. If it had happened in 1870, maybe that argument would have had some force. But in 1920, nobody was worried about recriminations and cycles of violence. (Except, of course, against blacks, which these namings were meant to encourage.)
I visited a relative in Alaska in 1986 and we camped on the mountain, and she pointed out how it was now called Denali, the native name, oh, and Eskimos are now Inuit.
In any case, most states are named after local tribes, in case anyone thinks the situation odd.
That brings up the main point here, that I think Eugene is trying to make. The government has complete power to name things however it wants for itself. It can't do anything to force anyone else to use that name. It can't even require that state or local governments use that name in all circumstances. If local governments and the state government of Alaska want to keep calling it Denali, what power does the federal government have to stop that?
Now, it could be legitimate for them to require that someone use the official, federal government name for a place when filling out paperwork sent to the government. (Such as the name of someone's place of residence, most obviously.) But that's about it.
I do not recall Barack Obama retaliating against any reporter for using the term "Mt. McKinley" after 2015.
Do you have an example of a reporter calling it Mt. McKinley after the name change?
The AP also uses "North Korea" instead of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. The lies and misinformation just won't stop!!
"Gulf of America" is Team Trump's shibboleth. Nothing more; nothing less.
I'm sure some Iranians call it the Arabian Gulf and some Saudis call it the Persian Gulf; neither are well regarded in their societies. Take heed.
“The Gulf of America” is the short name. The correct name is “The Gulf of America Fuck Yeah!”
That's probably the thread-winner. And the most accurate assessment I've seen so far. (I personally would have changed the last word from "yeah" to 'you,' as I think that would have better described Trump's true motivations.)
It's from Team America: World Police
Ah. Never saw the movie, so that went right over my head. (My point still stands, though.) 🙂
It's an encapsulation of a whole swath of World History and America's role therein. Should be on everyone's viewed or to be viewed lists.
An American "ten-dash line" somewhere cannot be far away, now...
(Ten, because we've got to go one better than the Chinese!)
Winners say what the name is, it’s why it’s no longer “Konigsberg” or “Saigon”
Or "administrative region 70", or whatever Russia calls it now, if we're gonna be cynical about weak western governments that fail to follow through on stopping rolling military dictatorships
Every once in a while someone goes on a tear about Americans mispronouncing one of those anciente olde Englishe names, like Worcestershire (which I probably spelled wrong). I always ask them how they pronounce the capitals of France, Italy, and Japan.
Didn't the hobbits have a discussion of the differences between names and what things and people are called? Or maybe it was the caterpillar.
It's pretty funny watching the pronoun police get their panties in a twist about someone else telling them what to call things. Sauce for goose and gander or something.
Goofball thinks sword only has one edge.
Goofball thinks all swords have two edges.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-edged_sword
Figurative speech, how does it work?
Figurative speech has to have some basis in reality to be figurative speech.
Keep digging!
Keep shoveling that shit, you're bound to find the septic tank sooner or later.
At that point, someone can reintroduce you to your natural environment.
Do you still call it the Gulf of Mexico?
"I always ask them how they pronounce the capitals of France, Italy, and Japan."
Oh, so you don't kick them out of the room for using the "false" name...
What's in a name....?
I’m not sure what the AP is talking about. The body of water off the coast of Louisiana has alway been called the Gulf of America.
And we have always been at war with Eastasia.
So I shall feel free to call the highest place in South Dakota Harney Peak and the US military base near Killeen, Texas Fort Hood, because the federal government has no power to name places. While we're at it, let's confiscate the Smithsonian Institution, since the original bequest was left to the United States, not to the federal government. That institution should be privately owned and managed. And let Uncle Sam return to the states all the public lands extorted from them as a condition of admission to statehood. A long way of saying Eugene's article met his usual standards of fatuousity.
"What would we think if the Governor of Kentucky announced that the Ohio River should henceforth be called the Kentucky River?"
Not quite the same thing, but the Arkansas River flows from the Rocky Mountains through Colorado, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas to the Mississippi River. For most of that length, locals pronounce it the way you would expect "Ar-kan-saw" (the same as the state of Arkansas). In Kansas, however, many locals pronounce it as "Ar-Kansas".
It always struck me as amusing while I was living in Wichita.
Right: definitions are by convention. Lots of words have evolved their meaning over centuries. Is that magic cube of knowledge in your hand really a "phone" anymore?
"Awful" and "awesome" used to mean the same thing, now they're opposites.
Lots of British English and US English words ("boot") mean completely different things.
Bottom line: You can call it whatever you want, as long as people understand you (although, google might not)
Famously the description of St. Paul's Cathedral as "awful, pompous, and artificial" - all compliments at the time.
Maybe hold a naming right auction like they do with sports stadiums.
Proceeds go to build a big, beautiful wall between the US and Mexico.
Maybe Carlos Slim will step up to defend Mexico or Elon will buy the rights and name it Gulf of X.
Sorry, but I'll never get used to calling it anything other than the Gulf of Twitter.
Insisting on calling the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America is dumb, but no more dumb than calling men who feel feminine women, and that’s been the mainstream position on the left for years.
A difference is in the latter case people are going by someone’s stated preference (like calling somebody whose name is Willard Mitt because they prefer the latter).
Difference is when Trump uses the power of government to enforce the government choice, that's bad. When trannies use the power of government to enforce their personal pronoun choices, that's good.
Two-edged or single-edged? Hmmmmm. This figurative speech is a real two-edged sword.
Look who googled it! I’m happy to have taught you something today!
What, that you're an idiot? I already knew that. What else could you have taught me today, that you've always been an idiot?
Just like a lefty. Think they know everything, and if anyone else knows something, they learned it from a lefty.
I get you’re testy about this as I Imagine you get your intelligence questioned a lot.
Whereas no one needs to wonder if you have any.
I’m not the goof who responded to the figurative speech about two edged sword by posting a wiki page about single edged swords.
When did they do that?
Let me guess. You've been hiding under that same rock Malika is trying to cover with dirt.
I believe two states, California and Washington, have made it child abuse for parents to not use their children's preferred pronouns, as brain washed into them by their school teachers. Whether they are felonies or not, I do not know. Whether these laws are still in effect, I do not know.
Many many tenured professors at state institutions have been fired for not using the preferred pronouns. By those government institutions.
If you know otherwise, please educate me. I can't rely on Malika.
This blog has covered a few instances. California and New York have laws where people can be punished for “misgendering” in certain situations, for example.
I didn’t see people bending over backwards insisting that Racheal Dolzal be called a black woman.
You mean we treat race differently than gender sometimes in our society? Get out!
Two comments ago “going by someone’s stated preference”. Love the flying goalposts.
That goalpost isn’t airborne, not all preferences are treated alike. Willard’s preference for Mitt is different than someone’s preference to go by Adolph Jewkiller.
That's different, because race is based on objective and readily interpreted biological facts, while gender is arbitrarily assigned, or chosen on the basis of feels.
Bullshit because we've all seen you leftists flip between gender and sex interchangeably, or do you honestly think we have women's sports solely because they identify as women?
we've all seen you leftists flip between gender and sex interchangeably
Well whoever you've seen should stop that.
Do you see anyone doing that here? Or is it just a handwaiving excuse for your own sloppiness?
In fairness, it is W. Mitt Romney.
"but no more dumb than"
I completely agree. But 'we can be as dumb as the other side' seems like an odd aspiration, and certainly not one that makes me want to vote for Team R. IMHE the whole PC parade-of-ever-changing-names thing has cost Team D a lot of votes over the years; it's not something to emulate.
Certainly. I call men men and the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of Mexico. I’m not sure why Trump and the AP insist on doing differently.
It’s funny that so many conservatives here can’t just say it’s dumb but have to what-about it. Trump Derangement Syndrome?
When was the last time you called out Proggies for their dumb shit?
You’re not quite sentient, are you?
yall are retarded, every single one of you. this has nothing to do with the name change and everything to do with whether or not a president can force the AP out because of it.
If everyone is retarded, then no one is.
That's slightly profound.
It seems odd that Eugene did not bother to find out the AP's recommendation for Turkey. The US State Department is all on board with the new name as are all the usual suspects of the progressive persuasion. But as he notes, the average American does not care, which means that the new name will be rammed down our throats. You can be sure that students will be clearly told that "Turkey" is offensive and its use in papers will not be accepted. If the AP jumped to adopt the new name for Turkey, it has no reason to object to adopting the new name for the gulf. Quite frankly, we made a mistake acceding to the Turkish request to stop using Constantinople back in the 1930s and Beijing for Peking. Foreign governments have no business dictating to speakers of English what names to use for their countries or cities. Does the AP call Germany "Deutschland"?
Why does that matter? This is a free speech post. I don't know the intricate legal quibbles over allocating the limited number of press slots, but that's not what Eugene wrote about. There's just as much unseemly about Trump kicking the AP out as there was about Biden picking and choosing who was allowed in to his briefings and to ride along in Air Force One.
Yes, dropping Constantinople was a mistake.
One could say it was instant bull.
The Four Lads "Istanbul"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcze7EGorOk
That's nobody's business but the Turks'.
Whatever the merits of those individual examples, do you sincerely not grasp the difference between what a person or entity names itself and what it names other people? Istanbul belongs to Turkey. Beijing belongs to China. The Gulf of Mexico does not belong to the United States.
Yet.
" The Gulf of Mexico does not belong to the United States."
Nor does it belong to Mexico, and the name "Gulf of America" has some charm given the large swaths of the world that sees America as a continent.
Having said that, the name change strikes me as one of the sillier things Trump has done. And it seems to me even sillier that so much gnashing of teeth has accompanied the change. Instant challenge or support entirely dependent on one's position the man himself.
(Not referring to the banning of the AP staff, or to calling someone a liar for using the old name. Those are not at all silly matters)
Why is that not "a question that can be resolved by the government"? We have an entire Department dedicated to setting arbitrary names for units and measures. An inch was originally the length of the king's thumb. It is no longer but the decision about how long it should be is still a determination by government. And calling anything oher than that "an inch" is indeed "a lie".
To your other example, "the US" and "America" may be common aliases but the legal name of the United States of America is set by statute. Saying that anything else is the country's legal or "official" name would again be a lie.
I don't see a limiting factor in that authority. It may be a terribly bad idea to try to enforce a modern version of "the King's English" but I don't see anything that makes it inherently illegal.
You mean NIST?
But… that’s not what the AP said. It said:
https://www.ap.org/the-definitive-source/announcements/ap-style-guidance-on-gulf-of-mexico-mount-mckinley/
Try reading the amendments until you get to one that covers it. It probably won’t require very many!
I wasn't responding to the AP - I was responding to Prof Volokh's comment in the paragraph beginning "It is not a legal question that can be settled by..." Regardless of the wisdom (or lack thereof) of the idea, I think the professor is wrong on the legal assessment.
To your second comment, I don't need to go to the amendments - the answer you're looking for is in Section 8. That, by the way, is the same justification for the establishment of the Office of Weights and Measures, the establishment of the Bald Eagle as our national bird and the vast majority of what our government does. (There is a valid question about whether the Executive can unilaterally exercise a particular legislative authority but congress' overdelegation of its responsibility is a separate problem.)
A better analogy is the Washington Redskins. When the team changed its name to the Commanders, the AP went along, and used the new name. Why? Why does it only do left-wing name changes?
That would not in fact be a better analogy, because the owner of the Commanders changed the name of the team. (It is, however, a terrible name.) The U.S. is not the owner of the Gulf of Mexico.
David, we agree...Commanders is an atrocious name. The Guardians is equally bad.
Bring back the Redskins and Indians!
Commanders is a fine name. And their fans can refer to them as the Commies for short.
I don't think the name change will last, but it will be what it will be based on how many people accept it.
6th Avenue in Manhattan has been named Avenue of the Americas since 1945; 80 years now and I dare you to find anyone who refers to it as that.
Same thing with the Queensboro bridge which everyone knows as the 59th Street Bridge (and now the Edward I. Koch bridge).
I'm sure there are similar examples all over the country.
Plenty of corporations with offices in 6th Avenue skyscrapers call it Avenue of the Americas, at least on their letterhead.
There are hundreds of pop songs referencing the Gulf of Mexico. I guess those songs are all "lies" now. Anyone devoted to Trump and his dictates should avoid singing, playing, or listenting to such "unlawful" "misinformation" until all offending lyrics have been rewritten to "get it right" and refer to the Gulf of America.
I will stick with the originals, though.
Here is an example of a lyric the MAGAverse should now shun:
"Up on Cripple Creek" -- released by The Band in 1969 (written by lead guitarist Robbie Robertson and sung by drummer Levon Helm):
When I get off of this mountain
You know where I want to go?
Straight down the Mississippi River
To the Gulf of Mexico
To Lake Charles, Louisiana
Little Bessie, girl that I once knew
She told me just to come on by
If there's anything she could do.
And here is another example.
"The Battle of New Orleans" -- written by Jimmy Driftwood in 1936; a big hit for Johnny Horton in 1959; and covered by everyone from Johnny Cash to Deep Purple to Dolly Parton.
We fired our guns and the British kept a-comin'
There wasn't as many as there was a while ago
We fired once more and they began to runnin'
On down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico
Yeah, they ran through the briers and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
On down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico
:
Of course.
This is an excellent example of why this whole renaming business is foolish.
Of course, we should be glad he's not calling it the Trump Gulf. I guess that will come later, along with the gold plating.
Too late! Israel already named two towns after POTUS Trump, lol (Rimat Trump is in the north of Israel, in the Golan).
Is the town shaped like a mushroom?
Someone helpfully linked the "AP style guidance on Gulf of Mexico, Mount McKinley." I'll link it again. It would be helpful if in-depth discussions of this matter provided it, quoting as warranted.
https://www.ap.org/the-definitive-source/announcements/ap-style-guidance-on-gulf-of-mexico-mount-mckinley/
The troll "let's pretend" game of changing something with such a long province is also noted in comments as not just a trivial matter of political theater. There is a deeper, more illicit point here.
This addresses, when the professor gets around to it, the 1A implications too. It also is not just something we can parse using court rulings either. As noted by Congress at the time:
The Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of Public confidence in the Government, will best secure the beneficent ends of its institution.
The First Amendment and other provisions of the Constitution are not just legal matters to be addressed by the courts. They provide overall principles for the people as a whole.
As an addendum, or some word that sounds less conceited, words do change meanings over time. The supporters of "Gulf of
TrumpAmerica" are annoyed at that in other cases.The issue here is targeting members of the press for reasonable word choices as if it was some grand principle of fact checking.
With the Trump Administration's purge of certain words as allegedly fictional, including "trans," will news sources be banned for using them too?
"words do change meanings over time. The supporters of "Gulf of Trump America" are annoyed at that in other cases."
What people are annoyed at is the relentless effort to forcefully change the meanings of words and the names of things in order to accomplish political ends. Adopting "standards" that don't match the way people actually use the English language, in an effort to change the way the language is used, to disadvantage opposing political viewpoints. The whole NewSpeak program.
The administration is treating the very concept of "disinformation" with the contempt it deserves. It was never a serious concern about lies, it was born just an excuse for censorship. Maybe if Trump makes a show of using it the left will give up on the term.
"What people are annoyed at is the relentless effort to forcefully change the meanings of words and the names of things in order to accomplish political ends."
Precisely so - which is why I am annoyed at trying to rename the Gulf of Mexico.
Great, now generalize that annoyance to all such efforts, and you'll have gotten the point.
People via social pressure can be annoying.
You get angry people when use the word undocumented, for instance. Or when other people cede to someone else's pronoun choice.
Anyhow, you're a hypocrite. More of the 'I don't notice when I do it' than anything more invidious.
I would also note that you are equating social opprobrium with the Presidency with all it's power and authority. Top down is not the same as bottom up.
No one ever called it the Gulf of America until Trump decided to once again exhibit his insecure masculinity.
He is a child who thinks he’s the center of the universe. No one thought to ask Mexico about this; in fact the only point is to piss Mexico off. Once again, it makes me embarrassed as an American that such a (child) man is our President.
Trump does not care about annoying Mexico. It is more likely that he wants to annoy AP reporters, and to distract his enemies. And to Make America Great Again, of course.
So his motivation for doing it was the effect it would have on the AP, before he had done it. MAGAs sense...
Mexico doesn't much care about annoying the US, so it's mutual.
And embarrassing that so many Americans will happily support such stupidity.
No one ever called it the Gulf of America until Trump decided to once again exhibit his insecure masculinity.
He is a child who thinks he’s the center of the universe. No one thought to ask Mexico about this; in fact the only point is to piss Mexico off. Once again, it makes me embarrassed as an American that such a (child) man is our President.
I offer this as exhibit #17 on Trump's button pushing. At least you admit to it now.
So you're of the "masterful troll, sir" camp.
Assuming it's true, it's amazing anyone would think that absolves the President of anything.
It won't stick; everyone can see that.
In the meantime Trump's going all The Great Dictator with this petty toying around, and the usuals around here are all 'masterful troll sir. Makes me mad all over again at Dems and trans stuff!'
As George Orwell wrote, to control language is to control thought. Trump understands this very well. Trump wants people to speak Trumpspeak for exactly the reasons the government of Oceana wanted everyone to speak NewSpeak.
He also, as Oceana did, wants a clear way to identify dissenters and troublemakers for future punishment. Those who won’t talk the new talk are rather easy to identify as the rebels, traitors, and criminals. His punishments are currently considerably milder than Oceana’s. But he hasn’t consolidated power yet. Let’s see what they become should he ever succeed in doing so.
"He who saves his Country does not violate any Law."
re: the federal administration trying "to control thought"
I can only repeat what I said yesterday:
https://reason.com/volokh/2025/02/14/ftc-bans-political-appointees-from-being-aba-members/?comments=true#comment-10917878
That's a link to you doing a tu quoque about a big show that didn't end up proving it's thesis, despite a big rollout.
Tu quoque based on failed equivalence is all you lot have to defend Trump's mad king nonsense.
The change from "Peking" to '"Beijing" (and many other Chinese cities) was readily accepted in 1979 because the Chinese government adopted a new method of spelling Chinese names in English and other Roman-alphabet languages. But, if I recall correctly, he poultry dish served in Chinese restaurants is still called "Peking Duck."
Yes, but the AP could have decided to not go along with the changes, and continue with the more recognized spellings. Why is the AP obeying the China government, but not the USA government?
The AP explains this. Beijing is in China, so AP uses the name preferred by the Chinese government. Mount McKinley is in the United States, so AP uses the name preferred by the the U.S. government. The Gulf of Mexico is in international waters, so the AP uses the traditional name for it.
Yes, but as Volokh says, Turkey wants us to say Tu"rkiye, and everyone says Turkey anyway.
When demagogic, narcissistic douchebags, e.g., Erdogan, Trump, make Orwellian demands, we will or won't comply at our whims, not theirs. I doubt that's AP's answer, but it's mine.
The AP, as you, acquiesce to the demands of marxists because that is who you are.
What does marxist mean here?
Because the AP is literally a company putting out a product in the marketplace.
And it's still chicken kiev, not "chicken kyiv."
(And Peking University is still called (in English) by that name.)
And your little doggies are not Beijinese.
[duplicate post, sorry]
They ran through the brambles and they ran through the bushes.
And they ran through the places where a rabbit wouldn’t go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn’t catch them.
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of…
Shit
Americo. 🙂
Perhaps he's not trolling the non-cultists - he's just fucking with the actual cultists, for his own amusement and indirectly expressing contempt at how craven and dumb they are. Even if not, that's what the purported renaming has shown.
What is the fun of being a dictator if you can't ask a loyal supporter to fall on his sword?
As a matter of fact, the Gulf was so named long before the US came into existence, as we all know, so the US is too late to the naming party.
Named by whom? The Spanish invaders who subjugated the people of Central and South America?
See also, "America"...
All of a sudden you cultists are concerned about how colonialists named places. Pathetic hypocrites.
I'm not settled calling the New World "America"! If named after anybody, it should be Columbia (tho now "problematic").
It kind of is named Columbia, as that remains the backup name in certain places, e.g. British Columbia, or CBS, the Columbia Broadcasting System.
I submit naming the New World Free World. It wouldn't be proper to name it even for the largest tribe on each continent, and freedom was applied on top of all people present, long after anyway.
There's precedent for this sort of thing. In Israel, they don't call the Gulf of Aqaba "the Gulf of Aqaba"; they call it "the Gulf of Eilat."
And the "Anti-fascist Protective Barrier" was what the East German regime called the Berlin Wall.
So?
"Place names in American English are defined by what American English speakers call them, not what the President tells us to call them."
The USGS maintains and official list of place names. And no, this is not the first time a place name has been changed for political reasons.
True! But what the USGS doesn't have is authority over the language that we speak (though it might have some influence of it, especially over time). By the way, the USGS database lists both Gulf of America and Gulf of Mexico as names for the same geographical feature (though labeling "Gulf of America" as "Conventional" and "Gulf of Mexico" as "Variant," a labeling that strikes me as not descriptively accurate even if consistent with the President's prescription).
This is a complete aside ... I decided to look at some of the USGS changes to, shall we say, not always family friendly names bestowed by rough frontiersmen. I found this press release about renaming things like Squaw Butte or Squaw Creek. But they won't spell out Squaw; the page title is "Completes Removal of “Sq___” from Federal Use". They found hundreds of them.
This isn't an unusual thing; they have been changing racy names to bland ones for a long time. I wonder how long before the Grand Tetons get renamed.