The Volokh Conspiracy
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Muskgate
Another week, another court order restraining the President from violating the law - only 205 more weeks to go!
Last night, the federal district court in New York (SDNY) issued a temporary restraining order in State of New York et al. v. Donald J Trump et al., a lawsuit filed by the AGs of 19 States against Trump and Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent.
The suit (and a separate lawsuit filed by Public Citizen in D.D.C.) challenges one of the more outrageous actions taken by President Trump in his first three weeks: granting Elon Musk and members of the "Department of Government Efficiency" - private citizens, all - full access to the Treasury Department's main payment system, the one through which virtually all of the $6 trillion or so disbursed by the federal government each year - to bondholders, social security recipients, NIH grantees, Medicare providers, university laboratories and hospitals, military contractors, armed services personnel, etc. - is channeled.
Is anyone not riled up about this? The President simply picks one of his cronies - one who just happened to have contributed tens of millions of dollars to his successful campaign for office - and says "Go at it"? Can he really do that? Lawfully?
As it turns out, no, he can't do that - not lawfully.
I suppose there are those who think: "Well, he's the head of the Executive Branch, and he runs the Treasury Department, and he can (apparently) fire pretty much anyone and everyone in it - so why can't he tell them who does and who doesn't have access to the payment databases?" And the answer, of course, is: Because his conduct as head of the Executive Branch is bound and constrained by law, in this case, by the relevant provisions of both the Privacy Act of 1974 and the Administrative Procedure Act, each of which restricts the government's ability to collect, store, and disseminate confidential personal information of the kind in the Treasury systems in ways that are completely inconsistent with Trump's actions here.
This isn't the place for a detailed statutory analysis of two rather complicated statutes. The AGs' memorandum accompanying their motion for a TRO [available here] has a cogent and brief summary of the requirements these statutes impose on the government in its handling of confidential and personal information ,and why the president cannot simply authorize, unilaterally, a private citizen to access this information.
It's what stands between "the President" and "one-man rule."
It is just a TRO; the court has not ruled on the merits of the States' claims beyond noting that the States have (as required for a TRO) demonstrated a "likelihood of success on the merits of their claims" - adding "with the States' statutory claims presenting as particularly strong." !
The order itself is an interesting document. The Treasury Department is, at least temporarily, prohibited from:
(i) granting access to any Treasury Department payment record, payment systems, or any other data systems maintained by the Treasury Department containing personally identifiable information and/or confidential financial information … other than to civil servants with a need for access to perform their job duties within the Bureau of Fiscal Services who have passed all background checks and security clearances and taken all information security training called for in federal statutes and Treasury Department regulations;
(ii) granting access to political appointees, special government employees, and government employees detailed from an agency outside the Treasury Department, to any Treasury Department payment record, payment systems, or any other data systems maintained by the Treasury Department containing personally identifiable information and/or confidential financial information of payees.
And the Department is further ordered:
(iii) to direct any person prohibited above from having access to such information, records, and systems but who has had access to such information, records, and systems since January 20, 2025, to immediately destroy any and all copies of material downloaded from the Treasury Department's records and systems.
I take it that "any person prohibited above" refers to the "political appointees, special-government employees, and government employees outside the Treasury Department."Â I wonder if the court will demand proof from the Treasury Department that, in compliance with the order, the information collected up to this point by Musk and the DOGE has, in fact, been destroyed.
A hearing on whether the TRO should be converted into a preliminary injunction against Trump and the Treasury Department has been scheduled for this coming Friday. The court, I predict, will issue the injunction - does anyone out there think otherwise?
This episode raises, once again, the question of whether Trump cares one whit about whether his actions are or are not lawful. The pattern's becoming pretty clear, no? The now-you-see-it-now-you-don't freeze on federal grants, the closing of US AID, the supposed elimination of birthright citizenship via Executive Order, Muskgate . . . So far, the courts, fortunately, have been there to restrain him from violating the law.
What happens when he ignores one of these restraining orders? Is there anyone out there who doesn't believe that day is coming? What will we do then?
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"Is anyone not riled up about this?"
Me.
I fond it impossible to envision a scenario where government spend can effectively be cut without looking at the spending records.
And exactly where is the dividing line between "private citizen" and "dedicated faithful bureaucrat"?
Serious question. What difference do you see between the DOGE team and all the other employees, other than Trump?
Basically right now there are three categories of federal employees in the Executive branch; the career civil servants that are loyal to the Constitution and federal law, the Trump appointees that are loyal to Trump, and DOGEers who are loyal to Musk. That is the difference.
There should only be one type, those loyal to the Constitution and federal law.
The proper term is DOGEbags.
No, ALL executive power is vested in the President and it is a gross abuse of the federal judicial power to issue a restraining order, actually I believe this was an ex parte restraining order, because a federal judge disagrees with the President's discretionary use of his constitutional authority. It is not for the judiciary to decide that the president is somehow moving too fast.
We've been a grossly lawless nation since the Pendleton Act (1883)?
Congress is supine; you want to ignore the judiciary as well.
That leaves Trump as essentially all of government.
No one should have that power. THAT is the real unamerican abuse of power.
That is not a legal argument ... it is an "I don't like it" argument. And annulling all law because you think the nation is already lawless is also not a cogent argument for anything other than anarchy.
You have no concern that the specific judge who just happened to have emergency duty at the time was one who had a long and personal history with Trump?
What is this "long and personal history" of which you speak? Is this just another bizarre MAGA conspiracy theory? Or a standard MAGA "anyone who rules against Trump is biased" rant?
Ok ... may not so long. I'm referring to the 2019 decision ... James is the one with the personal history.
What 2019 decision do you have in mind?
But what difference does it make anyway? A judge ruling against a litigant in the past is not a "personal history."
No, it's a legal argument. Longstanding legal practice is evidence something is legitimate.
It is dang near proof something is not full-on lawless.
This is also a conservative argument. Before conservativism meant reactionary populism.
You have no concern that the specific judge who just happened to have emergency duty at the time was one who had a long and personal history with Trump
You doing a conspiracy thing here?
The president has authority to execute laws, not to bypass them (except where the law itself purports to restrict executive authority).
No law is being violated and just so you know, the Constitution is the highest law, It is beyond outrageous that a court, ex parte, should restrain a president in the legitimate exercise of his constitutional duty to investigate his own f'ing branch of government. This ex parte order is so absurd that the House should being proceedings to remove this hack. He has no business being a federal judge.
The president does not have the authority to decide what the law is - and though the executive has interpretative deference due, it is much narrowed,
There is a Fed. judicial power to issue ex parte a TRO quia timet. But, as the order makes clear, the TRO is liable to expire. The Court has ordered the Fed. parties to appear before it and explain why the Court ought not thereafter decree a preliminary injunction (pending a ruling on the merits).
Ex parte quia timet relief in the form of a TRO is hardly controversial (in the huge bulk of cases - mostly commercial matters). Whether such relief might in equity (or under the Fed. Rules) issue against the Fed. gov *ex parte* is a question of some difficultly (going as it does into equity as well as Constitutional history). But on balance I'd say there is a jurisdiction.
The executive power consists of the power to faithfully carry out the laws passed by Congress, not the power to do whatever one wants with the executive branch.
Many of the activities are not specifically based on laws passed by Congress, but by regulations, guidance and informal decisions made by executive branch agencies. Unless there is a specific law on point, it is entirely appropriate that the Chief executive should examine agency decisions and, where deemed appropriate, correct or overrule them.
I think you are right, but Congress has made laws concerning access to the Treasury payment systems.
You're wasting your time trying responding to this clown troll who fails to realize that the president cannot take care that the laws are faithfully executed if one out of control federal judge prevents him from getting access to the details of where the government’s money is being spent.
The Administrative Procedure Act — a federal law — governs the actions of federal agencies. The Chief executive has no authority to order them to act differently.
Precisely.
The executive power consists of the power to faithfully carry out the laws passed by Congress, not the power to do whatever one wants with the executive branch.
Indeed. But the executive power of the United States is vested in the President, and no Act of Congress can vest any of it anywhere else.
The judge has enjoined the Treasury Secretary himself, duly appointed after Senate confirmation, from inspecting the records of his own department !
Which is good because it swiftly brings before the appeal courts the central issue raised by the initial Trump flurry, and the reaction to it.
Can the legislature or the judiciary, notwithstanding Article 2 Sentence 1, keep some part of the executive power beyond the President's control ? Is there really an autonomous fourth branch - the Apparat ? Or is that merely a conceit imagined by mutinous employees of the executive branch ?
Setting aside that this is simply not true — indeed, the Constitution expressly says otherwise with respect to appointments — acts of Congress define what "the executive power" is.
Huh?
The Constitution permits Congress to vest only the appointment of inferior officers other than with the President.
An inferior officer must necessarily have a superior officer who may command him, and the superior officers are answerable to the President. Thus no inferior officer may act contrary to the President's (lawful) instructions or prohibitions. Thus there is no scope for the exercise of executive power beyond the President's control. There is no fourth branch.
acts of Congress define what "the executive power" is
which is a completely different point - ie what the power is, not who wields it.
In the same way, it is Congress which has the legislative power but the Constitution limits the scope of that legislative power.
Yes, and? That's consistent with what I said, and not consistent with what you previously said.
The word "lawful" is doing all the work in your statement.
"Lawful" here means that if Congress has created a task for the executive branch, consistent with Congress's constitutional powers, it is lawful for the President to direct the Officer in the performance of that task, even if Congress has created an Office with an appointed Officer to carry it out.
If Congress creates a task for the executive branch and attempts by law to insulate the Officer specified to carry it out, from the President's supervision, then the attempted insulation is unconstitutional. Because it is in breach of Article 2 Sentence 1.
Obviously if the President instructs the Officer to perform some other task that is contrary to the task assigned to the Officer by law, then that is unlawful. But not because the President is ordering it, but because it would be unlawful even if the Officer did it on his own initiative. It would be unlawful because it falls outside the scope of the executive power. Not because of who is attempting to exercise the power.
This cannot be right.
The TRO was ex parte (an undeniable power) because it were issued (as it were) quia timet.
The TRO is expressly time-limited. The order makes clear that the Fed Gov. ought make an appearance by X date to be heard as to why no preliminary injunction ought issue (pending determination on the merits).
It seems to me that the fundamental ground on which the Ct granted the TRO were (apprehended & imminent) breach of mandatory statutory duties binding on the Executive.
Even admitting the existence of inherent Executive power, it surely can't be lawful for the Executive, in purported reliance on its inherent power, arbitrarily to adopt a policy whose purpose & effect is to breach statutes which Congress validly enacted in regulation of the Executive's exercise of its power.
The proposition that, even given an inherent Executive power, Congress, assuming a valid Con. head of legislative power, might not lawfully constrain & regulate its exercise, is close to revolutionary.
There's a nice question about whether the terms of the TRO do satisfy, & comply with, the Fed. statutory power to issue such an order. Perhaps some term of the order does impermissibly purport to *direct* the Executive as to its power per se to formulate policy, thereby breaching the SOP. But I struggle to see why there in general be, Constitutionally (on SOP grounds), no jurisdiction for an Art III Court to issue a TRO (or a preliminary injunction) going to imminently apprehended or continuing Fed. gov. purported enforcement of Fed. policy.
I'm aware that Vermuele has opined emphatically that the USDC TRO breaches the SOP. He did so on the view that the Executive enjoys a legal autonomy in respect of its "legitimate acts of State" (particularly when such acts go to internal Departmental policy). He didn't define what he meant, nor did he provide any criteria which might guide a legally-cognisable definition. He didn't explain why he appears to be importing a doctrine ("act of State") operative at international law, into the construction of the Const. conferral of Executive power (at the municipal level).
You haven't a clue, do you? "the career civil servants" are NOT loyal to the Constitution and Federal law. They are Public Sector Union Employees who are overwhelmingly loyal to the Liberal Socialists. I've actually heard one of these "career civil servants" from the State Department say that he didn't care "what some four year political hack" wanted, that he would do what he thought was right. This was in 1986. The four year hack was Reagan.
Always the smartest people with their random capitalization.
Really on point, as usual. You haven't got an honest bone in your body.
A reminder: you don't know the guy.
https://reason.com/volokh/2025/01/21/president-trump-comments-on-president-bidens-pardons-an-unbelievable-precedent/?comments=true#comment-10878061
My comment was on point to the actual text of the comment I was replying to.
Why is this hard for you to understand?
Meanwhile, speaking of not knowing the guy, said comment makes blanket unsupported accusations about a group of people that took oaths to the Constitution.
Bone ?
Yawn. Ignorant moron repeats Breitbart talking points.
Of course, by presuming the best about the first group and presuming the worst about the other two, you pretty much engineer a foregone conclusion.
But beyond priors, what's your basis for any of that?
"the career civil servants that are loyal to the Constitution and federal law"
this is a false statement.
Molly, the career hacks are loyal to the deep state and the past four years have shown that.
Trump has an Option B -- deny EVERYONE access to that data and watch the people scream when no one gets paid.
That is not a legal option.
This is the road to serfdom, that judges should base decisions on the character of the litigants. It doesn't matter whether career civil servants are "loyal to Constitution and federal law" or whether they are "Liberal Socialists." The question is solely what the Privacy Act and the APA say, as applied to the facts presented in the instant litigation. I'm not equipped to say much on that topic, although it doesn't seem like anyone else (including David Post) is either.
" the career civil servants that are loyal to the Constitution and federal law, "
This is the most absurd statement ever.
Utter bullshit. There is a massive amount of unconstitutional actions from career civil servants.
MollyGodiva hads demonstrated being dim of wit!
the career civil servants that are loyal to the Constitution and federal law
Like that career civil servant Kevin Clinsemith?
Or that career civil servant Eugene Rightmeyer?
"Spending records" are public information, with the exception of certain intelligence and military spending. It can all be reviewed by Musk or anyone else Trump cares to designate without illegally accessing payment systems. Maybe next time read the whole post.
These spending records exist, and are open via a dedicated website.
They are also open to Congressional oversight, should there be a need to drill down farther.
Oversight organs from IGs to Congress to the GAO to the OMB have existed for decades.
Doge is dressing itself up like this is a problem. But it's not been solving this problem, it's just been careening about destroying stuff and firing people. Both with dubious legalit.
What difference do you see between the DOGE team and all the other employees
1. Loyal to Musk as only credential
2. Because of above, all young and inexperienced
3. Also because of above, some horrific skeletons in their closet, from open white supremacy to lawbreaking hacking.
4. Blind mandate to move fast, breaking things. That's been good in silicon valley, but here they don't have a direction to move, so it's just breaking things.
Moreover, government is not a capitalist endeavor, so this lack of care is extra bad.
As edbeau explains below the DOGE boys are not interested in the public records, they are looking at the systems of control for payments.
This is a normal internal audit function which requires reviewing whether the payments that result in the publicly available spending records have been properly authorised and recorded within the government payment system. That requires review of the computer records of the authorizations.
And they haven’t. Because graft. That’s what’s going on and that’s what the judge has blocked. An internal audit of the payment systems.
This is an activity that goes on in every large business in the world- moreover this kind of audit is routinely reperformed by the EXTERNAL auditors also.
The judge has even blocked the Treasury Secretary from these records. Ridiculous. But normal. Obama judge.
This is a normal internal audit function
To be performed by experienced auditors, not by the kids Musk has brought in.
....yet they found quite a bit of fraud that the Feds ignored.
Perhaps having ACTUALLY intelligent people dealing with this and having a CEO who runs large companies behind them makes sense.
Trump can go along with the judge and shut down Treasury COMPLETELY until the TRO is gone. The Sec of Treasury is locked out of systems so the Dept cannot be run properly. So, shut it down and send employees home. Indefinitely.
They have found exactly $0 worth of fraud.
No, they'd found a lot.
Maybe read before you demonstrate your lack of intellect.
Can you point me to one of the examples of fraud that they’ve found?
Nieporent, thanks to is partisan blinders, very often has reading issues.
He gets around his reading problem by closing his eyes and tying “Liar! Liar!” and covering his ears.
Can you point me to one of the examples of fraud that they’ve found?
They found a veritable krakenful of fraud.
So much that it has taken Bruce so long to type it up that he still hasn't responded two days later!
"not by the kids Musk has brought in"
Michael Dell tweeted in response to a similar comment that "I founded my company at 19, seemed to have worked out ok."
Then Michael Dell is an idiot.
The fact that a particular 19 year old was successful in founding and running his own company (as opposed to all the other 19 years olds who did the same and failed spectacularly) doesn't mean a bunch of 20-somethings with no relevant experience will do a competent job of "auditing" the Federal government.
Frankly, the fact that he's using inexperienced 20-somethings is a massive red flag. If you have a clear and well thought out plan you hire experienced folks to execute that plan. If you're looking to screw around without constraint you hire a bunch of kids who will be awed and intimidated and won't question you.
As opposed to the winners who populate the Feds?
I'll take the 20 year olds over the lifer mesomorphs who have the combined intellect of a bag of rocks.
"Michael Dell is an idiot"
"He is the 10th-richest person in the world as of December 2024, according to Forbes Bloomberg Billionaires Index, with a net worth of $130 billion."[2] wikipedia
What are your credentials, alleged non-idiot?
My credentials are not making an obviously dumb statement.
What's your excuse for a blatant appeal to authority logical fallacy? WTF would Michael Dell know about the skills needed to audit the US Treasury?
And if we are going to appeal to that authority, perhaps we should note that on October 6, 1997, Michael Dell was asked what he would do if he were CEO of Apple; his response was that "I would shut it down and give the money back to the shareholders."
Market cap of Apple, 2025: $3.42 trillion
Market cap of Dell, 2025: $74 billion
No, it doesn't guarantee that the 20-somethings will succeed. It does, however, demonstrate that the statements to the contrary (that the 20-somethings are guaranteed to fail) is flatly false.
Were people making the arguments that they were guaranteed to fail or just that it was a terrible idea with a needlessly high likelihood of failure and/or disaster?
Note that the same people saying, "Oh, it's no big deal that these guys are 19 years old" were yesterday saying, "Oh, we have to excuse the guy who bragged about being racist because he's just a [25 year old] kid."
I'm pretty sure that Musk considers their lack of judgement to be not a bug but a feature.
And the professionals have been unsuccessfully trying to audit the DoD for over a decade.
The DOGE boys see to have taken a different tact. Instead of getting bogged down in a million details, they apparently just feed it to AI, which searches for patterns and connections. And anyone who doesn’t think that it works, just has to look at what they found at USAID.
And anyone who doesn’t think that it works, just has to look at what they found at USAID.
LLM hallucinations of $50 million of condom purchases?
There no evidence 19 or 20 year are the ones making final determinations. Indeed, I suspect if there are 19 year old folk doing anything, it is purely looking through records flagging things fore more experienced and qualified people to investigate further.
And that's completely normal in any situation. We have 19 and 20 year old interns reviewing and assisting in our company. They don't make decisions, but they do get involved. Why should it be any different here?
Bob, you are a fucking moron. The domains are not comparable. Do you see any 19yo surgeons out there? 19yo judges, accountants?
Oh, and you're still a fucking moron.
DOGE is not "auditing" anything. Auditing is a slow and boring process of reviewing paperwork. DOGE is making policy and firing people. Auditors do not do that.
You're conflating a low-level audit of financial transactions with an audit of a system that deals with those transactions. Even the first-cut pass at the system level shows shocking and apparently purposeful gaps in basic recordkeeping practices that currently would make a transaction-level audit next to impossible.
"firing people."
Making recommendations you mean. For instance, the USAID people put on leave [not fired] were put thereby the acting administrator.
"DOGE is making policy and firing people."
This is a false statement.
Edbeau appealing to his own authority found stuff that aligns with his priors.
He did not go into detail.
You're not going to get a lot relying on him.
Because graft
That's something *you need to establish*. It's not a magic word that lets you legitimately ignore a judge.
The complaints were not established --- literally at all --- yet a TRO was issued. With no actual law to justify it.
Maybe you really do not know what the fuck you're talking about?
TROs are not issued after the facts are established.
You're thinking of an injunction.
There's plenty of laws cited in the complaint.
Maybe you really do not know what the fuck you're talking about?
Says the dude who doesn't understand TROs and thinks there are no laws cited.
What's amazing is the MAGA cultists who keep giving Musk credit for uncovering stuff that has always been public information. (The only thing Musk has uncovered is stuff that was entirely made up, like condoms for Gaza, or millions for Chelsea Clinton.)
Do you think making comically false statements bolsters your claims?
Do you think that the fact that you were unaware of something — a scenario that happens quite often to you — means that it was secret?
Logtobefree: Serious question. What difference do you see between the DOGE team and all the other employees, other than Trump?
That's easy. A Treasury Department employee is supervised by, and answerable to, his/her supervisors, up to and including the Secretary and the President. The acts of an employee are imputed to the Department. The Department, we assume, has the incentive to supervise its employees such that they do not violate the law.
The Treasury Department is bound, by LAW(e.g. the Privacy Act), to behave in a certain way with respect to the confidential information it collects. Elon Musk is not so bound, nor are the DOGE staffers.
So by your logic we should do away with all external auditors and SOX audits since the exact same thing can be said if every public company? Mind you, public companies are playing with the money if willing participants and not a coerced tax base of forced participants. Are you seriously this stupid?
David repeatedly commenting on his own post shows what a navel-gazing tw@t he is. Somehow giving Josh and Ilya more credibility by engaging in more scurrilous posting antics than they do is a notable feat even among this rogues' gallery of second-tier academics and partisans.
So some NY judge has more control over the operation of the Executive than the President? Weird system you guys have. Speaking as a former Internal Auditor, the patterns that Musk has identified already are extremely troubling: payments made with no categorization or description of the reason, $100 billion a year in payments to people who have no SSN or other identification, just a name, and no reason for the payment. In almost any organization, that is a red flag for fraud. But the Democrats have stood up 100% in support of waste and fraud, so we'll see how that plays out politically.
Ed: as you've had experience at internal audit, how much experience do you think is required to conduct the kind of audit that the various civil service departments need?
It may be a "Weird system," but the payment system and access to it are defined by Congressional statute. When one is accused of violating a law, it becomes a matter for a judge. See how that works?
Ending waste and fraud is a laudable goal, but it doesn't justify unlawful executive actions. No one doubts there is tons of wasteful and perhaps fraudulent spending. Take your time, gather the records legally, and make your case to Congress. They hold the purse strings and they make the rules, for better or worse.
So Trump or the Treasury Secretary just has to designate that the DOGE people can access the data? Or hire those people themselves? That seems like an easy fix, then, even assuming this order stands up on appeal.
For the record, Paul Engelmayer is a federal judge, not a "NY judge."
Cultists have to repeat whatever the cult leader says. But Musk did not "identify" this; he claims that "was told" this.
Trump should also just delegate his opinion to only activities in the useless judge's district.
The Treasury Dept in DC is NOT in his district.
None of your idiotic non-sequiturs address the point that Musk and the DOGEbags are possibly violating federal law regarding the access to federal payment systems, and thus a matter for courts. There were careful and legal ways Musk could have obtained the exact same information.
There is zero evidence of it, Trump has unilateral control over clearances, and the judge has blocked the Sec of Treasury from access as well.
They are in no way violating federal laws. Though Trump should be kind and give every single one of them pardons for anything they ever did at any point of their entire lives.
The evidence of it is what they themselves are saying they are doing. Although I agree with you that isn't really evidence, since they are a bunch of fucking liars. Why else hire private security people to keep Congressmen and other meddlers from entering and observing what they are doing? Government of the people, right?
So can the Treasury Secretary access this information, or not?
You sure about that one? The only source I can find with the cajones to use the active voice says the security guard at the door during Maxine Waters' photo op stunt works for the DOE.
beau99:So some NY judge has more control over the operation of the Executive than the President? Weird system you guys have.
It is. It's called "constitutional government."
A. Drinwater summarized it perfectly:
It may be a "Weird system," but the payment system and access to it are defined by Congressional statute. When one is accused of violating a law, it becomes a matter for a judge. See how that works?
Ending waste and fraud is a laudable goal, but it doesn't justify unlawful executive actions. No one doubts there is tons of wasteful and perhaps fraudulent spending. Take your time, gather the records legally, and make your case to Congress. They hold the purse strings and they make the rules, for better or worse.
Fuck off you evil, corrupt POS. Funny how every statement requiring accountability is met with a deluge hatred from the people underhandedly extracting the wealth of the nation for their own benefit and comfort
First, Elon Musk is NOT a private citizen. He is a special governmental employee.
Second, the Secretary of the Treasury is a political appointee. This District Judge is purporting to both ban the Secretary from records in his own agency AND to destroy government documents.
Third, their is no INTERNAL Privacy Act protection. It applies to EXTERNAL dissemination.
Finally, does every District Court get to rule on this? So that a Judge in say, Texas could say it's all fine. What happens then? We do not have a judicial Supremacy Clause. This in a Judicial, anti-democracy coup. And Grounds for impeachment.
Musk has been appointed as a "special governmental employee", but he is not following any of the laws of 18 U.S. Code § 202, and if you actually look at federal law, Musk is in direct violation of 18 U.S. Code § 208. And don't call Musk a member of an advisory committee becasue he does not match the definition of 5 U.S. Code Chapter 10.
Section 202 is, as clearly titled, just definitions. What specific "laws" are you referring to?
Even if you were to actually choose a path through the tortured language of subsection (a) that you feel would apply to Musk, subsection (b) contains a number of exceptions to subsection (a) that I'm quite comfortable you can't rule out.
“The President simply picks one of his cronies - one who just happened to have contributed tens of millions of dollars to his successful campaign”. Hundreds of millions.
Is anyone not riled up about this?
Certain Trumpies. It does bother a lot of people, including some who support Trump for other reasons, but not this one!
They are reasonable people. They just have to take the bitter with the sweet.
If Post were a real Libertarian, and not just a Trump-hater, he would agree with using private contractors to identify government waste. What could be more Libertarian than that?
Um, no . . . Being a Libertarian does not mean "use private contractors for everything."
And if being upset about Musk and his cronies poring through confidential IRS databases means I'm not a "Libertarian," so be it.
This is true. There are plenty of things that should be done by government, and, once deciding that, only done by government. Prisons for one. Police forces for two. These are the famed "government monopolies on initiation of force" that are gated behind the Constitution.
I think the judge has decided to become a petty dictator by issuing an order with absolutely no logic, no evidence of harm even presented (theories of harm, no actual harm) and with no ability for the admin to respond.
They should ignore the ruling. It is certainly in violation of the Constitution.
Do you understand what a TRO is?
Yes. And they are not to be issued for no legitimately valid reason.
The complaint failed to present one and the decision failed to present one.
Either shut down the Treasury IN FULL or simply ignore the decision as the Treasury Dept is in DC and not the idiot judge's district.
Why do lefties like Post oppose oversight of the Feds?
Methinks he is a recipient of the criminal largesse.
Trump, just declassify EVERYTHING. Put every single thing Treasury has approved out to the public. Print it and then dare a judge to do something about already published info.
Why do lefties like Post oppose oversight of the Feds?
I don't know. But I don't oppose oversight. I just prefer it to be done by independent overseers with appropriate experience. YMMV
We've seen their work so far and all of this shit happened anyway. You cannot point to their efficacy and say we should do that more.
Just close down the Treasury. Permanently. Advise Congress that since judges now, apparently, outrank the Sec of Treasury, the Executive Branch is henceforth not going to maintain any employees at the Treasury Dept nor maintain any actions there.
Yeah, no money in or out sucks...but that is what the judge wants. Let the judiciary run it without any security clearances to do so.
Um, Trump is the one who fired all the Inspectors General. "Lefties [sic] like Post" condemned him for it.
No. Trump did not fire "all the Inspectors General." That is a lie.
He did fire a good chunk of them. And they were the ones that were at the major Departments. Why would Trump fire the people whose job it is to go after waste, fraud, and abuse?
David's a big proponent of being technically correct. When he says Trump fired "all the Inspectors General" it's a lie.
“Liar” is his favorite word.
Perhaps you should consider that in the appropriate context.
Like the fact all you ever do is come here and lie, for instance, because you're a piece of shit.
Perhaps if you actually told the truth, you wouldn't be called out for lying?
You mean those IG's missed ALL of the shit DOGE has turned up?
Yeah, we do not need them if they are so inept.
IGs are not auditors, they respond to issues that are brought to their attention. And the stuff that DOGE has "turned up" are things that were legal, just not to the MAGA liking.
Clearly they are not. The problems with the Treasury Dept giving money to completely with no SSN or even Temporary ID is clearly in violation.
"Clearly!"
They also perform audits on a rather routine basis.
What shit has been turned up?
What actual wrongdoing has thusfar been established?
One Garrett Graff wrote this up as though it were happening in a foreign country:
"WASHINGTON, D.C. — What started Thursday as a political purge of the internal security services accelerated Friday into a full-blown coup, as elite technical units aligned with media oligarch Elon Musk moved to seize key systems at the national treasury, block outside access to federal personnel records, and take offline governmental communication networks.
With rapidity that has stunned even longtime political observers, forces loyal to Musk’s junta have established him as the all-but undisputed unelected head of government in just a matter of days, unwinding the longtime democracy’s constitutional system and its proud nearly 250-year-old tradition of the rule of law. ..."
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2025/02/if-it-happened-there
I found a copy of the complaint and took a first pass.
Every bit of purported support for its wagon train of Chicken Little what-ifs appears to come from the past several days of breathless hot takes in media rags. Quite the alley-oop.
Looking forward to the usual "that's not evidence" suspects weighing in on this travesty.
The Administrative Procedure Act
Laws and Regulations Governing Sensitive Information
Privacy Act of 1974
E-Government Act of 2002
26 U.S.C. § 6103 (Tax stuff)
31 CFR 1.32 (SSNs)
18 U.S.C. §§ 207, 208 (financial conflicts)
Treasury and the Bureau of Fiscal Services purpose and authorities [i.e. oversight via treasury isn't in keeping with the purpose of the Department]
Only the last section of the allegations, "BFS Disbursements to States and Their Residents" is a 'wagon train of Chicken Little what-ifs.'
Ah, speaking of the usual suspects. Here's our first taker, submitting for our consideration a laundry list of statutes/regs harvested from the complaint -- as though that somehow rehabilitates the paucity of factual underpinnings needed for that laundry list of statutes/regs to be anything more than just 60 pages of beating pots and pans together.
You provided a link to the complaint, thank you for that. I can only assume you are hoping none of us actually read the complaint and instead rely on your characterization, since your characterization bears no resemblance to the actual complaint.
Strong words indeed. I note you opted to stick with characterizations of your own rather than even a minimal usage of control-C, control-V, and surrounding quotation marks to demonstrate the plethora of totally non-media-frenzied evidentiary material on which the judge rested his uber-carefully-reasoned order. Shouldn't take much if it's as bad as you claim!
If some liberal billionaire, say Alex Soros (the son of billionaire Democratic donor George Soros) had used the same methodology (towards different ends perhaps) as the Musky guy, including being directly involved in the operation of the federal government, the right-wing would be not so thrilled.
The system can't work using an ends-justify-the-means framework. The rules and norms are the whole thing. Once they are discarded, there is nothing left.
Nothing will stop the Musky freight train. He's likely been guaranteed a pardon. Nobody in the federal government would arrest or stop him if he violates some court order, if there would even be a way of knowing that he did. The Supreme Court will likely rule any laws that conflict with their vision of the unitary executive theory as unconstitutional, and thereby sanction Musky rule.
The Musky way is the new way. There is no going back. There isn't much point in being riled up about it, just skip to the last stage of grief: acceptance. Unless you already love it, then just continue to cheer and celebrate.
USAID has heavily funded the Soros Org.
References? Citations?
USAID's existence and their mission was created and mandated by Congressional statute. You don't like it fine, change the law. The Trump administration does not have the authority to discontinue it. Are you really too dim to understand this concept? All the policy discussion and claims like yours are entirely beside the point.
He can fire all of them for rank insubordination. And an executive's job is to insure that Congressional law is executed properly.
They were not being done properly.
And it is time for somebody to challenge Congress requirement that every penny be spent.
You seem to be confusing how these laws actually work with how you wish they worked.
They were not being done properly.
Point to examples.
These people really want a king. (But only if it's Trump, of course.)
There is no indication that USAID was violating the law. All the complaints are that MAGAs do not like the grants.
USAID was, I believe, created by executive order (JFK). It is funded by Congress but its existence (under the auspices of State, IIRC) is not mandated by Congress.
It was originally established by executive order, yes. Its existence is, however, mandated by Congress. 22 U.S.C. § 6563
USAID was originally created by JFK's 1961 EO but was reorganized by statute in 1998. Read this article for the details.
AWD,
We do know that when the President submits his budget, the funds requested for USAID will be minimized and those cuts will mostly stick.
The Biden administration did use a private citizen, Jack Smith, to make bogus prosecutions against Trump. Democrats did not complain about that.
Bogus, as in Trump did everything he was accused of?
Jack Smith was a private citizen who was unlawfully named a special counsel.
And, no. Smith was busily losing his cases (a tradition for him).
I'll note everything DOGE has found is accurate (nobody has disputed any of the info).
Of course not, it's all public record information that could've been found legally. The question is has DOGE violated the law. And that's a question for courts, not partisan internet commenters. But of course you will base your opinion of the court's legitimacy on your agreement with the outcome, like always.
What? There is much to dispute about what DOGE found. They have lied quite a bit. The $8 M from USAID to Politico, the condoms for Gaza, for example. They took kernels of truth and build lies around them.
Jack Smith was lawfully named a special counsel, and he was hired as a government employee, not a private citizen.
Zero money was spent on condoms for Gaza. Chelsea Clinton hasn't gotten any money. Politico was not being subsidized.
Except that the one decision on the merits (of Smith’s being legally appointed) went the other way. District Court Judge Cannon did, indeed, determine that his appointment was illegal, and dismissed Smith’s FL case against Trump as a result. It was not reversed on appeal (there hadn’t been time before Trump was elected, then inaugurated).
Liar, liar, pants on fire.
Yeah, cite the one cunt who ignored decades of precedent in order to help Trump.
Should we talk about the other cases involving special counsels, where actual Judges exercised proper jurisdiction and jurisprudence, or did you only want to talk about the bitch looking to please her master?
A district court decision is binding on nobody outside the confines of a particular case, including the judge who issued it. And the D.C. Circuit and Supreme Court disagree.
Roger, you're just wrong. Jack Smith was a private citizen who was appointed, under governing statutory and regulatory rules, a "special counsel" to the Justice Department. Trump and other Presidents had all used this procedure in the past. Smith was NOT acting as a "private citizen" when he presented his evidence to the grand jury - he was acting on behalf of the Justice Department. Elon Musk has no such status.
Except, that the only decision, on the merits, said that you are wrong.
I am riled up about this. Specifically in regards to the court order.
The court order basically means the the Secretary of the Treasury and President of the United States cannot access their own database.
That's absurd, and a massive overreach in Judicial Power. What next? Is the court going to order that the President can't order the military to take any type of military action?
No, it means that DOGEers can not for they are not bound by the laws and regulations needed to access that data. The normal government civil servants still have access.
You mean, like the Senate-confirmed Secretary of the Treasury? Nope, he was blocked too. So, you're back to applauding judicial lawlessness. Just admit it.
Read the order. It blocks the Secretary of the Treasury from accessing his own database.
The SoT might not have access under normal circumstances. There are many requirements and trainings that are needed to legally access that data.
Please, do tell. What are these requirements and trainings that the SoT must have to see Treasury data?
So we now live in a dictatorship of the bureaucrats?
They and they alone hold power -- not the elected officials?
That will provoke a third Civil War, and the bureaucrats didn't do well in the last two -- 1775 & 1861...
Elected officials still must comply with federal law, and it is the duty of civil servants to ensure that happens. Also the SoT is not elected.
I admit to not having a photographic memory, but this?
I don't remember a single Post post about Biden illegal student loan tricks, his Pardons, or any other Biden or Obama tricks. Your selective outrage is not convincing.
Then your memory is faulty.
Please link to the David Post posts about the above.
The question of whether or not Prof. Post is a hypocrite doesn't really address the rightness or wrongness of his argument. Are you not able to defend Trump's actions on their own merit or lack thereof? Can you cite some evidence that Trump cares whether or not his actions are lawful?
He clearly does care and has specifically done everything to insure it is legal.
Clown judges are immaterial and should be treated as such.
Clearly.
The question of whether or not Prof. Post is a hypocrite doesn't really address the rightness or wrongness of his argument.
There are two questions before us: (1) Am I a terrible hypocrite? (2) Is our President subverting the rule of law?
May I respectfully suggest that #1 is not as important as #2. If you have something to say about #2, say it. But can we put #1 aside? As I said before, if you want to regard me as a hypocrite, be my guest. It's distracting you from confronting the merits of the questions here, and I think it's a waste of your time.
You don't care about the merits of your arguments, otherwise you wouldn't be a hypocrite.
Since you don't care about your arguments, no one else should either.
Oh, bullshit. If a President hired McKinsey Consulting or Ernst & Young auditors to do the same thing, no one would bat an eye.
I take that back - the people whose graft is at risk of being uncovered would find some excuse to object. So technically, I can't say no one. But no one outside the process thinks this is a problem.
Oh, bullshit. If a President hired McKinsey Consulting or Ernst & Young auditors to do the same thing, no one would bat an eye.
That is ridiculous nonsense. If a President hired McKinsey to investigate fraud and waste, the McKinsey employees who were to be given access to THE DATABASE CONTAINING THE MOST SENSITIVE PERSONAL INFORMATION THAT THE UNITED STATES POSSESSES ABOUT INDIVIDUALS AND CORPORATIONS would have to get background checks, obtain a security clearance, and be given instructions about what they could and could not do with the information to which they were given access. Do you not understand that that was NOT the case here, with Musk and his boys???
Love the caps. Trump has got you over the edge of thinking clearly.
You had no idea who was accessing your information before, and all that vetting you love did nothing to prevent the leak of Trump's tax return. (Link to your post about the tax return leak if you've got it.)
Just what information was that, Professor Post = THE DATABASE CONTAINING THE MOST SENSITIVE PERSONAL INFORMATION THAT THE UNITED STATES POSSESSES ABOUT INDIVIDUALS AND CORPORATIONS
I did not know there was 'the database' of all things. Really, please elaborate, because 'the database' seems to be at issue here.
/SMH....'the database'. 🙂
Doesn't including the SecTreas guarantee almost immediate review? It cannot be the SecTreas (or his designate) cannot view 'the database' or, heaven forbid, 'the data'.
After seeing the sewer at USAID, let's see more.
I read the AG’s memorandum and find the arguments quite weak, and many here, including Post, arguing from conclusions whose relevance are a ripe target (employees are loyal to Elon, Elon was a donor, these guys are opposed to gov spend, Elon wants to steal PII).
So the APA has something to say about granting authorized system access to internal employees when, we must presume based on news and public info, that grant satisfies their ITGC’s (reviewed, deliberate, expiring, etc.)? What does it also govern? Changing of schedule for taking out trash? At the very least, this APA claim should be drawing a very skeptical eye. I think it leans more towards absurd.
And the Privacy Act? One would have to presume these people are not internal auditors, or even external auditors. The scope of the employees’ duties and status seems to remove any claim that this is effectively some type of breach. Or we’re trying to talk about violating system procurement processes? Is any “system” that would qualify for such review being identified? I see speculation, not fact. My guess (since we’re guessing) is these guys are using a whole lot of excel and VSC/Python.
On the whole, Post’s article uses an incredulous tone that betrays his destination before he even takes to the field. If steelmanning the AG’s position was the goal, detailed analysis of the memorandum is what’s needed, not a simple and accepting reference to it. If a critical analysis was the goal, some contrary thought not sarcastically set up as a strawman would be needed.
Looking forward to reading the opposition briefs, which we are lacking because.. this was done ex parte? Mmkay. Let’s see how this looks in ten days. Until then it seems like a lot of wishcasting is going on.
This was an ex parte TRO. The Preliminary Injunction hearing is scheduled this coming Friday, 2/14/25, where Trump, et al (in their official capacities) will, no doubt, be represented by DOJ attorneys.
The Democrats will be represented by a lawyer wearing a black robe.
1) "The Democrats" aren't suing.
2) The plaintiffs will be represented by a lawyer wearing a suit.
3) You realize that the judge presiding over the hearing will not be Judge Engelmayer, right?
1. Each and every plaintiff is a Democrat, so, yeah.
2. The Democrats will be represented by Jeannette Vargas, who will wear a black robe.
3. See 2.
Each and every plaintiff is a state (or commonwealth, special caveat for Dr. Ed), not a Democrat.
The train has left the station and there is no stopping it now.
The DOGE team doesn't even need access to the data now that they know its format and what to look for. I worked in IT for over 30 years in development and I seldom had access to production data. We knew the format of the data, had test data to work with and when we finished developing the systems it ran on production data and the end users got the output. I worked on systems with sensitive data like Texaco's 1099 system, which they were extremely protective of both for competitive and legal reasons.
That's standard procedure for large IT installations.
Bessent and his team and Vought, who has been confirmed at OMB, can run the AI tools that musk and his team develop, and then review the output, and decide what spending should be targeted.
And if any legislation is needed there is still the 'Big Beautiful' reconciliation bill to implement changes needed to get at the data they need.
And they can publish estimates of the fraud -- like was done during COVID and make that a political issue...
So according to this judge, it would be unconstitutional to contract with a major accounting firm to audit any payment records? And it would also be unconstitutional for FBI investigators to review payment records in a fraud case?
Sorry, David Post, this ruling makes absolutely no sense.