The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Hughes Court Repudiated FDR In Humphrey's Executor, and the Roberts Court Will Repudiate Trump by Maintaining Humphrey's Executor
The separation of politics, not the separation of powers, will decide Wilcox v. Trump.
Students always have difficulty reconciling Myers v. United States (1926) with Humphrey's Executor v. United States (1935). In Myers, Chief Justice Taft forcefully held that the President has an absolute removal power of a postmaster. But Humphrey's Executor held that the President could not remove a member of the Federal Trade Commission without showing cause. Superficially, at least, there are ways to line up the precedents. The postmaster only exercised executive power, while the FTC member exercised "quasi-judicial" and "quasi-legislative" powers, whatever those are. But there is another explanation I usually tell students.
Humphrey's Executor was argued on May 1, 1935, and decided on May 27, 1935. Schechter Poultry v. United States was argued on May 2 and 3, 1935, and decided on May 27, 1935. Coincidence? I think not. Both of these cases were repudiations of President Roosevelt's powers. Humphrey's Executor unanimously upheld the so-called independent regulatory agencies, and Schechter Poultry unanimously halted the National Industrial Recovery Act. This was not a good day for President Roosevelt. Both cases were largely seen as repudiations of FDR's overreaching powers.
Of course, if Roosevelt lost the battle on May 27, 1935, he would win the war in 1937. Even though there was no actual "Switch in Time that Saved Nine," West Coast Hotel v. Parrish (1937) signaled that the Supreme Court would no longer stand in Roosevelt's way. And, over time, Roosevelt would make nine appointments to the Supreme Court. The rest is history. In a fairly short period, Roosevelt radically altered the Constitution, the Supreme Court, and our republic.
Over the decades, Humphrey's Executor became a conservative bête noire. But when the opportunity arose in Morrison v. Olson to scale back Humphrey's Executor, Chief Justice Rehnquist more-or-less reaffirmed the precedent. Only Justice Scalia, in dissent, was willing to highlight the problems with Humphrey's Executor. Over the ensuing decades, Scalia's Morrison dissent became gospel, and Rehnquist's Morrison majority aged quite poorly.
Fast forward to the Roberts Court. In a series of cases, stretching from Free Enterprise Fund (2010) to Seila Law v. CFPB (2020), the Court chipped away at Humphrey's Executor, but did not overrule the precedent. In the wake of Seila Law, the Court has not ventured further, finding various ways to avoid the issue. But that avoidance is no longer possible.
President Trump fired a member of the National Labor Relations Board without showing cause. Trump argued that the removal protections in the National Labor Relations Act are "inconsistent with the vesting of the executive Power in the President." The fired member, Gwynne Wilcox, has challenged her removal. This case allows Trump to directly challenge Humphrey's Executor. The District Court (Judge Howell) and the inevitable D.C. Circuit panel will be bound by that precedent, so there will be no surprises below.
What happens at First Street? The Supreme Court could simply deny review, given that there is a binding, on-point precedent. I am reasonably confident that Justices Thomas, Alito, and Gorsuch will vote to grant cert. For reasons I'll explain below, Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Barrett will want nothing to do with this case. Who will be the fourth vote for cert? Justice Kavanaugh.
This vote would be the most consequential cert vote Justice Kavanaugh will ever cast. Way back in 2008, then-Judge Kavanaugh wrote in Free Enterprise Fund v. PCAOB (2008) that the D.C. Circuit should "hold the line and not allow encroachments on the President's removal power beyond what Humphrey's Executor and Morrison already permit." He repeated that same line in PHH Corporation v. CFPB (2018).
I have to imagine that overruling Humphrey's Executor is something Justice Kavanaugh has thought about for some time. In 2018, the WSJ wrote, "Judge Brett Kavanaugh, now President Trump's nominee to the Supreme Court, has signaled he would like to overturn the precedent set in the case, Humphrey's Executor v. U.S." By contrast, Chris Walker thought Kavanaugh would not overrule the precedent. Then again, Walker suggested that Kavanaugh would be solicitous to Chevron, and we all know how that turned out in Loper Bright. Kavanaugh's chance to overrule Humphrey's Executor will come soon enough.
But Justice Kavanaugh only gets us to four votes. What about Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Barrett? Let's start with the Chief.
Roberts, like Kavanaugh, came of age after Morrison v. Olson. Humphrey's Executor, much like Roe v. Wade, was the sort of precedent that Reagan wunderkinds dreamed about overruling. Roberts did not need to overrule Humphrey's Executor in Seila Law, so he didn't. But what happened with Dobbs? Roberts blinked. He made up this bizarre fifteen-week test that made a hash out of precedent. It was such a weak opinion that we won't even bother including it in the next edition of the casebook. Roberts thought he was avoiding controversy, but in the process put out a totally forgettable concurrence. Certainly not a ruling for the ages.
I suspect Roberts would do much the same in Wilcox v. Trump. When presented with the opportunity to catch his white whale, he won't. If there was any other Republican president, Roberts would not hesitate to overrule Humphrey's Executor. While overruling Roe created something of a backlash, most Americans don't know the NLRB from the YMCA. Gutting the for-cause protections would make no appreciable difference in people's lives. It would be a freebie! But not with Trump. Roberts will not be seen as surrendering to Donald Trump's hostile takeover of the federal government. The Chief Justice will not save DOGE as a tax. My prediction is that Roberts will vote to reaffirm Humphrey's Executor, and in the process say some meaningless things about the separation of powers.
What about Justice Barrett? I think she will see the stare decisis value of Humphrey's Executor as too strong. She will say that as a matter of first impression, she might decide the case differently (with a cf. footnote citing all of the anti-removal scholarship), but given nine decades of precedent, the reliance interests are too weighty. And by a 5-4 vote, the Roberts Court will save independent agencies.
The Hughes Court repudiated FDR in Humphrey's Executor, and the Roberts Court will repudiate Trump by maintaining Humphrey's Executor. This case will not be based on the separation of powers, but an attempt to separate the Court from politics.
FDR did not have a good day in 1935, but he prevailed in 1937. Every action has a equal and opposite reaction. Let's see what happens in 2027.
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I honestly have no idea what the hell Josh is trying to say. I'm not sure he knows what he's saying either. Why does he feel the need to talk in terms of innuendo, with all the clarity of a Chinese fortune cookie?
I think Josh is saying that majority of the court doesn't like Trump, and will bend the law to stop him from firing people. In other words, too many justices lack courage...
Pretty much. They know which side represents a personal threat to them and their families, and which side doesn't. For all the talk about Trump's supporters being Nazis, it hasn't been the right clawing at their courthouse doors, or showing up at their homes. It's been the left.
Which just shows they fear Trump's attempt to destroy our nation is more real than potential personal threats.
"Trump's attempt to destroy our nation" by actually enforcign teh US Constitution?
You're on some really bad drugs, moron
And so, what, Alito, Thomas and Gorsuch have more faith in their bodyguards, or don’t care about their families, or are just American Badasses? Sheesh, Brett, try Occam’s Razor rather than Birch’s Paranoia.
Brett, you believe that conservative Justices aren't ruling as you think they should because of fear of violence from the left?
Yes, I think that's "a" factor in the way some of them rule, if not remotely the only factor.
Yes, but you're insane. That is not remotely a factor. Not a large factor, not a small fator, not any factor at all.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure YOU don't have a thick file full of death threats, and nobody has shown up at your house to kill you, and changed their mind at the last minute, either. So whether it would be a factor for YOU is kind of beside the point.
Telepathy.
"the left" if you include the Deep State/IC.
Yep, them justices have been holding their punches the past ten years. Fear. Anything else silly you believe, Brett?
How many times have they ruled against Permanent DC?
He realized his scholarship was juvenile so he switched to counting Justices, a sure admisssion that he thinks he is the only one that sees the law clearly.
He may be right on how Roberts will act and it will be a disgrace. Again. The Court would be engaging in politics, NOT distancing itself from politics by maintaining bad precedent unsupported by the Constitution just because the chief justice doesn’t like the policies of President Trump.
Is there a clause for independent agencies in the Constitution? I suspect that Scotus will eventually come around to the view that they can all be fired.
There is no clause in the Constitution that the President can dismiss officials, either.
Congress exercises only the enumerated powers, and the federal courts exercise only the enumerated jurisdictions. I believe it's time for Article II powers to be limited to enumerated ones - pardon, military, and foreign relations. Anything else must be a faithful execution of laws, including laws that limit Presidential powers. (I imagine most people here would disagree with me on this.)
Yes, that's what the drafters said. Apart from the fact that that's implicit in the word "executive", i.e. that it executes the laws rather than making up its own, and that there's the take care clause, the founding fathers would have also approved of the Case of Proclamations, and assumed that it went without saying that it applied to the US and its President too.
The King has no prerogative but that which the law of the land allows him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_of_Proclamations
So Congress can simply eliminate the President's current authority to drop members of the military from the rolls of the service?
Realistically, the founders didn't set out to create a system of co-equal branches. It had been King George coming after them, after all, not Parliament.
They actually set out to create a system of limited legislative supremacy, where the legislature would win all fights they had a consensus they should win.
Note, for example, that if Congress is united, they can remove any member of the Executive or Judicial branches, while the Executive and Judicial branches have no similar power over them. The legislature was intended to be able to win any fight with the other branches where they had an actual consensus they should win. Presidents have no role in the amendment process. Congress, not Presidents, declares war.
So, yes, it actually is true that Congress could, by a statute subject to the presentiment clause, simply eliminate a President's authority to drop members of the military, and then override his veto of the law. And remove HIM from office if he presumed to try anyway.
If enough members actually agreed that it should be done, is the catch.
Note, for example, that if Congress is united, they can remove any member of the Executive or Judicial branches, while the Executive and Judicial branches have no similar power over them.
The nice civics lecture we got about check and balances is based on a now mostly false premise that branches are conscious of themselves as branches, each collectively using their powers to influence the other branches.
In modern times that's about as useful as doing an analysis of the Battle of Midway as if it was engine room officers vs bridge officers vs gunnery officers. Lumping together the Japanese and American engine room staff for the purposes of the analysis, as if they might jointly decide to push back against the Japanese and American bridge staff.
The only tiny vestiges of a branch guarding their prerogatives versus the others are in the judiciary, and even that's weakening.
I imagine most people here would disagree with me on this.
Most people's opinion on this issue is subject to change at approximately four-year intervals.
Personally, I completely agree with you and always have. The entire federal government should be one of enumerated powers only. But then I've never been put to the test by having my preferred candidate win.
Realistically speaking, "dismissing" officials is inherent in the executive power. A CEO, for example, who couldn't actually fire anyone wouldn't be an effective CEO.
If you wanted to be ultra-strict about it, and only include the "enumerated powers", the President would have very little power. Let's list what they are.
1) "He shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy"
--This would technically exclude the Air Force, as well as the Coast Guard.
2) "He may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments,"
--He can't actually tell them to DO anything...just require the opinion.
3) "He shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons"
-OK
4) "He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties"
-Note, this doesn't really allow him to do "Foreign affairs" or any of the various diplomatic things a President does. It only allows him to make treaties, and only with the Consent of the Senate.
5) "by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States,"
-This just allows him to appoint them...with consent. It doesn't allow him to tell them to do anything.
6) "The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate"
-The Senate doesn't go to recess anymore.
7) "He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; "
-Yeah, I can recommend stuff to Congress to. There's no real power there.
8) " he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper"
-That's pretty limited.
9) "he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers;
-Ceremonial,."
10) "he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed"
That doesn't actually give any power
11) "shall Commission all the Officers of the United States."
-But still can't fire them...or necessarily tell them what to do.
What this leave you with is a person who is in charge of ~2/3rds of the Military, who can appoint people...but can't tell them what to do, can't fire them, and can't actually appoint them without Congress's approval. Can't do any foreign affairs without Congress. And sometimes can give pardons. Basically a figurehead.
Yes, and probably much closer to what the framers intended, at least the anti-Federalists who finally agreed to sign on.
But contrary to what you say, most of the powers of the presidency are under (10). Congress creates laws and grants the president authority to carry them out. And laws aren't just about enforcement of criminal statutes. Most laws are about build this, create that, collect that, etc.
Well at least that's how it was supposed to be. You might ask yourself why they included item (2).
Many countries have a head of state who is the ceremonial figurehead leader, and a head of government who is the political leader. The President is both.
I see the president as being mostly and administrator making sure the federal government functions and follows the law. The President is not a CEO or king.
What exactly is your argument? That we're not supposed to have a King?
That's the feature. You're bitching that the President should only be doing what the Constitution authorizes.
Apart from what others have said, I'd note that you also have some very strange ideas about how companies can and should be run.
Reception Clause isn't exactly a ceremonial role, as receiving an ambassador necessarily requires recognition of the sending country (and by extension, its territorial claims). If Somaliland, State of Palestine, or Donetsk People's Republic tried to send ambassadors, would the President "receive" them? No - as their territories are, according to the President, governed by different countries.
Can Congress, then, declare that a territory belongs to a specific country? This Court has spoken, ten years ago, in Zivotofsky. I find the majority reasonable.
Of course, the President is not authorized to regulate foreign commerce absent Congressional action, and the mere fact that something is in the national interest probably wouldn't make it a Presidential power.
Well, you have to understand that the Court discovered the “quasi” vesting clauses in Humphrey’s Executor. They were on the back of the Constitution, written in invisible ink, but with some lemons and hairdryers, they managed to reveal the text. But it’s not visible anymore. We’ll just have to trust them and who wouldn’t trust Roberts? That’s crazy talk.
Yes, they are the new penumbras.
I do wonder what will happen to the Federal Reserve Board. Will Trump kill its independence as well?
That's up to Elon.
I don't think Trump would do so, not because of any principle, but because of who would react badly: markets. Trump doesn't care about — indeed, he positively revels in — making Democratic politicians and constituencies upset, but when all of Wall Street reacts in horror, he'll listen.
I'm not sure that hypothesis survived the latest round of trade tariffs.
I don't think people have sufficiently internalized the implications of Trump and Musk's meeting with Milei. They think Trump is trying to operate inside the system, and just pushing the edges a lot. Nope, that was his first term.
This term he's given up on trying to fix things on the margin. He's not playing whack a mole anymore, he's trying to blow up the whole game board and change the game.
"he's trying to blow up the whole game board and change the game"
It's still hard for me to believe that so many people nod their heads at this. Previously we would consider such ill-considered destruction to be juvenile, irresponsible, reckless, harsh, inhumane, and a blight on future generations. It's the thinking of a spoiled child, or at best an adult who's had too much to drink and will pass out soon. But here we are.
Yes, and what’s even more interesting is this thinking permeates the group that think they are *conservatives!*
As I've remarked before, you can only conserve what you still have, so it was inevitable as the left racked up victories that "conservatism" would go by the wayside, because increasingly actual 'conservatism' would be conserving the things it had originally fought. And if they had good reasons for opposing them, why would it make sense to defend them?
Former conservatives are now dedicating themselves to winning back lost territory, and so the term 'conservatism' is indeed a poor fit for what they're doing now.
Fuck that Burke.
Yes. Whig, not even conservative in his era. Just because he was right and Fox wrong about the French Revolution doesn't make him a good conservative influence.
Joe Manchin would be a recent comparison. Or Collins.
Yes, Bob, you have made it very clear that you are not really a conservative philosophically, just an anti-liberal.
It's a relief to all actual conservatives, I'm sure.
"actual conservatives"
NR style conservatism died sometime ago. The survivors are welcome but they are the tail now, not the dog.
Who came into office with the promise "We're five days away from the fundamental transformation of the United States."
Richard M. Nixon?
“47” doesn’t drink, his proposal for Gaza makes more sense than anything else peoples are proposing, like Hairy Truman, he doesn’t give the other side Hell he just tells the truth and they think it’s Hell
Maybe we don't think it's ill-considered destruction? Maybe we think the federal government has been on autopilot for decades, picking up speed as it heads towards a cliff?
Here's a graph of the federal deficit. It's actually worse than this shows, because government spending is counted automatically towards the GDP, so when the government borrows $1, the GDP automatically goes up $1, even though the actual economy didn't grow.
The federal debt is up to 120% of GDP. Notice how it was under 40% from 66-85? Then rose to about 60% and hovered there from '90 to 2008? Then shot up to 100% and stayed there from 2012-2020? Then shot up to 120%?
What's the next plateau going to be? 140? 160? 200? The steps are coming closer and closer together, you notice.
We think the spoiled children are the ones who claim that what can't go on forever WILL go on forever, and don't want to end the party.
"Number high" is belied by 1) our economic indicators, and 2) other countries who have commensurate debt/GDP.
You, of course, have a radical view of government, so your banging the crisis drum also hits as pretty outcome-oriented.
Finally, this destruction is currently all aimed at the discretionary budget. So it's all for show, and not actually capable of addressing the problem you've conjured.
I'll grant that the stuff he's done so far is not enough for the scale of the problem, but keep in mind he's only been President for less than 3 weeks. He's barely getting started.
Like I've said before, pace your outrage, you've got four years of this to endure.
Ah, so you revel in destruction AND and admit it's useless.
Like I've said before, pace your outrage, you've got four years of this to endure.
This wanky gloat makes a lot more sense as your true motivation all this time.
LOL!
"AHA! WE GOT YOU!"
He doesn't admit to anything being useless.
He rightly points out that it's only been 3 weeks.
And that there's a lot more to come.
At this rate you'll be maxed out on Thorazine by the end of March.
LOL!
They won't listen to you regarding their impotent rage.
They're burning all their powder RIGHT NOW!
What a time to be a shrink. I imagine office hours are booked up for as far as you can see.
For all the good it will do them.
Brett - it's NOT THE PRESIDENT'S FUCKING JOB to change the system.
He's supposed to execute the laws.
Your side is losing the nation so the only way you (think) you can win is buy hiring a thug.
This four years you think will be a long time is a bump in the road and then you continued to be a loser.
My side is losing the nation, as demonstrated by our winning the Presidency and both chambers of Congress. So much losing!
What we see is a system that's been progressively rigged so that your side retains effective power through the bureaucracy even when my side wins control of the elective branches. As I said, a lot of the government has effectively been put on auto pilot, and the government is headed towards a cliff at 100mph.
So, what's Trump doing? He's taking a sledge hammer to the autopilot, so that winning elections matters again.
I'm not happy about the whole situation. There's no part of it that's good, save the slight prospect of not hitting that cliff, and Trump probably came to late to achieve that much.
You: "It's destruction. Useless destruction but it shows moxie, and maybe he'll take a notion destroy it all soon!"
Also you: "Useless destruction is very good politics. The GOP will win all the elections now"
The absolute shrieking and gnashing of teeth about USAID is a sight to behold.
Elon exposed their bullshit and the left is melting down in real time.
Bondi confirmed. Investigations incoming.
His cabinet will be confirmed.
What a time to be alive.
You're like those mouthbreathers in the beginning of the Civil War; all excited about the future and ecstatic about early victories.
But they (like you now) fucked around and found out....
And I'm not talking about the military victory.
For example, ". . . (the) Fourteenth Amendment 'expand[ed] federal power at the expense of state autonomy' and thus fundamentally altered the balance of state and federal power struck by the Constitution.”
There's absolutely NOTHING permanent that Trump's doing now and it will be all overturned - and actually will be worse for you once this period passes.
There's absolutely NOTHING permanent that Trump's doing now and it will be all overturned - and actually will be worse for you once this period passes.
The warnings that the lower ranking minions in the Trump administration need to receive:
(1) Someday Trump will no longer be in power.
(2) If you broke a law, "just following orders" will not be accepted as a defense.
(3) Trump is a selfish man. Many of the January 6th crew had already been arrested prior to January 20th, 2021 and he could have pardoned them. But he decided to let them rot for four years instead. He did this to avoid blame and let them take the entire hit.
(4) Trump is a delusional man. If impeached, he will not accept that his time is ending until the final vote. At the instant of the final vote, it will be too late for him to issue pardons.
"The warnings that the lower ranking minions in the Trump administration need to receive:"
1. They already know
2. They haven't broken any criminal laws.
3. You're assuming Trump never ever learns. He's seen Biden give blanket preemptive and family pardons. So he will give broader ones.
4. If you think thee will ever be 67 votes in the Senate to remove him, its not Trump who is delusional.
BfO:
1. They "know" just like a teenager in a drunken drag race on public streets "knows" he is mortal but pushes it to the back of his mind. They need to have it brought to the front of their mind.
2. Of course. Hence the warning to ensure they don't decide to engage in a crime such as criminal contempt of court if and when DJT decides to defy a court order. And to be fair, DJT very well might chicken out. He totally folded under stern looks from Sheinbaum and Trudeau.
3. His learning capacity is diminishing while his selfishness increases. Happens to a lot of old people.
4. You are very likely correct; however, the remote chance of it happening can serve as a deterrent if the consequences would be severe for the minions.
I'd also add that quite a few Republicans in Congress are patiently bearing the constant humiliation because they have to. Suppose Trump's first two years are so disastrous that Dems take 60% of the seats in the midterms, a margin that has happened many times in the past. Then they'd only need 7% from Republican defectors who've been waiting to drive in the knife.
"Suppose Trump's first two years are so disastrous that Dems take 60% of the seats in the midterms, a margin that has happened many times in the past."
Suppose I grow wings and fly to the moon.
Only 1/3 of senate seats are up. What is the math for Dems to get to 60 senate seats? That is 13 seats!
Very few care about USAID or the NLRB or civil servants enough to change votes. In fact foreign aid and bureaucrats are pretty unpopular.
I could see them losing the House at the midterms, (And I'd like to slap Trump silly over nominating sitting members of Congress for positions in his administration when the election gave him such a narrow majority!) but the Senate seems out of reach barring something bigger than I see happening.
In this hypothetical January 2027 scenario, keep in mind that the Republican senators would be operating under somewhat different conditions:
- They aren't deciding whether to hand the presidency to the Democrats. They're deciding whether to hand it to J.D.Vance.
- They've just taken a beating in the midterms and seen (say) five colleagues go down. 1/3 of them are facing another election in 2028 and will be in a damned if you do / damned if you don't situation.
- If things have reached that point, it'll be because Trump has been dragging them through two years of drama and forcing them to defend "ideas" like Club Med Gaza owned by the US Sovereign Fund as part of the assets backing up Social Security. They'll be heartily sick and tired of it.
"They're deciding whether to hand it to J.D.Vance."
The first time they were deciding whether to hand it to Mike Pence. Didn't help.
Dream on if you like.
"The warnings that the lower ranking minions in the Trump administration need to receive:"
With the massive expansion of extremely broad pardons...nah, they can ignore your advice.
Y'all seem to ignoring the historic unpopularity of the Democrats and them deciding to double and triple down on what people dislike most about them.
Brett - it's NOT THE PRESIDENT'S FUCKING JOB to change the system.
This hasn't been the case since- funnily enough!- FDR.
The executive branch has assumed more and more of the policy-making side of our governance, and every President expands the bounds of executive power more than the last.
If we care so much as to reign in Presidents' ability to make policy, then Congress needs to do its job and depower the executive.
But I doubt the left will ever go for that.
Your side is losing the nation so the only way you (think) you can win is buy hiring a thug.
Based on this comment, I'm assuming you're someone who believes in the inevitability of the emerging Democratic (permanent) majority. We've been promised that for over two decades now and we're still waiting.
Read a history book about the past 260+ years and tell us what the trend has been.
Hint: It's not the trend you will like.
As I've said before, it's not a linear trend and there have been bumps along the way - but it is an undeniable trend towards progressivism.
People who appeal to history in this way have already lost.
Trends are "undeniable " until they stop. A trend is not a law of nature.
In this context, how are you defining "progressivism"? Can you illuminate your meaning with some concrete examples?
The trend as I see it has been for the political class to outsource their power to unelected and unaccounted bureaucrats in order to create some permanent foil to campaign against. A villain they never seem to reign in. They set up "mandatory spending" and then conduct histrionics over "shutdowns" and "spending" that are as fake and gay as they are.
When the government "shuts" down, what really happens? Practically nothing. 80% of the government still runs. The remaining 20% go home for a paid vacation.
When they campaign on spending, how much of the budget is discretionary that they are bickering over? 15%?
It's all fake.
Writing as someone who is trained as a historian, one thing that was drilled into my head by my professors was that nothing is actually inevitable. A historical line on a graph will not necessarily always go up, nor will it trend down, nor will it go whatever trajectory that pontiffs seek to impose on it.
The "we are inevitable" Thanos argument is a crock of shit.
Indeed, the only way you can claim "progressivism" as being a trend over the past 260+ years is if you redefine the term into being so meaningless that it then means contradictory things.
Bear in mind that much of what Trump is "changing" are actions of prior administrations. I'm not sure how his undoing them is outside his job description, unless the theory is that actions of prior administrations are now "the system" and have thus become sacrosanct. But whatever Trump accomplishes before 2029 will become part of the system as well. So, on that theory, undoing them will be beyond the remit of the next administration.
Notice how I refrained from typing in all-caps.
Does the President have authority to close and cripple agencies created by Congress and ensure that they cannot function?
No? He's supposed to actually ensure that the laws passed by Congress are executed faithfully?
Then shut the fuck up.
Obama and Biden both happily ignored enforcing laws they disliked (hell, Biden ignored SCOTUS rulings he disliked as well). Trump can pick and choose what he wants to execute legally.
Do not whine about the rules Democrats put in place here.
He is not in fact trying to do any such thing. He's just trying to burn things down for fun. ("Some people just want to watch the world burn.")
Cue Billy Joel.
Why does anyone want massive bureaucracies that answer to no elected official?
I don't understand this.
The left does because they control the massive bureaucracies. They can therefore control the government no matter the election results.
"The left" doesn't even control the faculty lounge at Oberlin College, let alone massive bureaucracies.
Okay, that was probably rhetorical overkill; "the left" likely does control the faculty lounge at Oberlin College. But not much else.
You think the "left" refers to socialist and commies, but it refers to everyone left of center, which is the entire non LEO or military federal bureaucracies.
"The left" has a certain protean flavor in this sort of usage.
Question: When do Republicans approve of judicial legislation?
Answer: Every time they want to.
I am starting to think that structural arguments like the unitary executive may be conservative attempts to see penumbras and emanations in the structure of the constitution analogous to liberal attempts to see penumbras and emanations in the Bill of Rights.
Article I courts have been part of this country’s history since the Founding, and their constituionality has been upheld many times. And Article I courts cannot provide Due Process of Law if their judges can be subject to being fired by the President whenever they make a decision the President doesn’t like. So it seems to me we either have to say Article I courts are unconstitutional in their entirety, or the President’s power to fire officials he doesn’t approve of is limited.
Humphrey’s Executor chose the second option, limiting the power of the President to fire officials connected to Article I courts and bodies that operate like Article I courts in order to preserve their fundamental fairness. There has been considerable reliance on that decision. A great deal of decisions are made by Article I court-like adjudication.
Moreover, Congress, in enacting the APA, wanted administrative law to proceed in a deliberative fashion with public input and reasoned, evidence-based decision-making, with decision-makers not simply being mouthpieces of the President’s pre-determined outcomes.
The Constitution created a President, not a king. And it seems to me that the unitary executive theory derives its concept of what a chief executive is from the traditional powers and prerogatives of kings, not from a careful analysis of constitutional text and precedent.
Certainly the President has unenumerated powers akin to the “necessary and proper” clause of Congress. But the President’s only Constitutional duty is to faithfully execute the laws created by Congress. And it seems to me that Congress can, if it wants to, create an administrative state with bodies over which the President’s powers of oversight are not absolute.
I am becoming very skeptical of structural arguments that the whole thing is unconstitutional. The Constitution gives Congress considerable leeway to determine how the machinery of government is to be run. And I think it also gives Congress the power to create Article I tribunals that have a measure of independence from the Prssident.
Article I courts have been part of this country’s history since the Founding, and their constituionality has been upheld many times. And Article I courts cannot provide Due Process of Law if their judges can be subject to being fired by the President whenever they make a decision the President doesn’t like. So it seems to me we either have to say Article I courts are unconstitutional in their entirety, or the President’s power to fire officials he doesn’t approve of is limited.
From my reading of Ortiz v. United States, 585 U.S._ (2018), Article I courts and Article IV courts are the exception to the unitary executive principle.
There is no such thing as the "unitary executive principle", it is being made up by SCOTUS.
It was made up by the framers of the US Constitution when they wrote:
"The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America."
To get unitary executive principle from "Executive Power" is a radical interpretation of the text and does not in any way imply that the President has the authority to treat the federal government as his personal serfdom.
"he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" makes it clear that the President must follow the laws of Congress.
"to treat the federal government as his personal serfdom."
There's no serious suggestion that the entire Federal government is that.
The President is the chief executive of the Executive Branch, not the other branches. Within the Executive, he's The Boss.
If the President can fire anyone he wants, can block Congressionally allocated funding at will, issue regulations without following the process that Congress set out, push politics into non-political areas, then he is treating the government as his personal serfdom. Trump is doing all of that.
"structural arguments like the unitary executive may be conservative attempts to see penumbras and emanations"
Your argument reduces the president to a mere clerk.
Well, a clerk who can veto bills, command the military, and issue pardons.
If you had your way on immunity, not even those should Congress will it.
The postmaster only exercised executive power, while the FTC member exercised "quasi-judicial" and "quasi-legislative" powers, whatever those are. But there is another explanation I usually tell students.
Whether Congress had the authority to create a body with such quasi-legiative and quasi-judicial powers was not before the Supreme Court in Humphrey's Executor. As no party challenged the legitimacy of the FTC's powers, the Court proceeded as if it were a legitimate agency that could constitutionally exercise its powers.
While it is clear that District of Columbia courts, territorial courts, the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, and courts-martial are exceptions to the unitary executive principle (as well as Article III) it is unclear if the FTC is a constitutionally authorized exception.
I limit my comments to the supposed "difficulty" of "reconciling" Meyers v. United States with Humphrey's Executor.
First, Meyers went to the Constitutionality of an Act which purported to make an Executive power to dismiss conditional on "consent" of the Senate.
Secondly, Humphrey's went to the question whether the Executive might exercise its power to dismiss an employee of a Federal agency created by legislation, irrespective of the specified terms for dismissal prescribed in the operative and valid statute.
Now: that the Executive has a power to dismiss at will an employee or officer of the Executive is no answer to the question whether that power is absolute *in all circumstances*, including when an Act (which doesn't condition the power on a *decision* of, or on the *consent* of another branch) lays down the lawful terms of dismissal.
In short, there is nothing in point of principle to "reconcile". Taft spoke, in light of the facts of Meyers, of the "absolute" power to dismiss, in the context of resisting the proposition that the *decision to exercise* such a power might Constitutionally be made conditional on a prior decision, or "consent" (not amounting to any law embodied in a valid Act) of a body of the legislature. Taft didn't speak of an absolute power to dismiss *if a valid Act specified terms of dismissal* (falling short of any purported usurpation of the actual decision to dismiss).
"quasi-judicial" and "quasi-legislative" powers, whatever those are
What they are is made up terms to pretend there are things other than the three constitutional branches of government.
President Roosevelt declined to argue that the FTC itself was unconstitutional.
Congress casting off lawmaking, i.e. the words you have to pay a fine or go to jail for, to someplace where they don't vote for those words, is a stretch using the argument "it's the executive branch executing the law" (i.e. orders to create regulations.)
That's sketchy enough (we love democracy! Until we don't.) But to further remove executive branch control by forbidding the president from changing up this lawspeaking according to the purpose of winning the executive branch -- executing the laws -- doesn't even make sense according to this relaxed concept of lawmaking.
Which is it? The executive creating the regulations as derivative of his executive will, or Congress creating the regulations as direct expression of their leguslative power?
Sorry, no squirrely independent nodes.
"What they are is made up terms to pretend there are things other than the three constitutional branches of government."
One day a SCOTUS majority will find the whole "independent agency" structure unconstitutional. Not this version I think but its coming.
Does this include Article I courts?
Military courts? No.
I'm talking about agencies that issue regs and also adjudicate stuff.
"overruling Roe created something of a backlash" -- understatement of the day
"overruling Roe created something of a backlash"
Did it really? I guess, for a brief moment.
GOP did better in 2024 than 2016-2020. Even in 2022, it took back the House.
Did this "backlash" stop SCOTUS from the 14A and immunity decisions?
The president needs to have control over all executive agencies. My understanding is the constitution does allow people in the executive branch to exercise certain executive powers independent of the president, but the president still needs control over them. The CFPB can pass a rule, that rule can’t be overridden by the president saying so, but the president can fire the head of the CFFB.
I don’t think that applies to *every member* of the executive branch. I would say removal protections on a multimember body are fine, so long as the scheme ensures the president has control over that body, either through having the power to directly overrule the body or has a guaranteed majority. That’s how Robert justified not overruling Humphrey, it makes sense to me, and the same reasoning can apply here.
But - in the case of agencies created by legislation at least; and, moreover, in the case of executive officers exercising powers under delegated legislation - it's strictly not the case that any act or decision by an executive officer or employee is *therefore* an exercise of executive power. In the latter case, the act or decision is sourced in a power delegated by the legislature. It's statutory-based power exercisable by the Executive repository of the power.
Non-statutory Executive power is a different issue, of course.
The ultimate control which the Executive can exercise over statutory-based powers conferred on the Executive is to get the legislation amended, by the ordinary legislative processes.
I don't agree with the analysis. I'll accept that Roberts and Kav find Trump a little distasteful, but this did not stop them from ruling in his favor in the 14A disqualification and immunity decisions.
The key is that while Trump benefits, future presidents do too. Roberts' whole career has been focused on increasing executive authority, I think he will keep it.
The NLRB former commissioner lead with her race and sex in her complaint. Roberts doesn't much care for this either.
For a change, I agree with Bob. (Not for a change, I disagree with Josh.) The notion that Roberts is somehow afraid or reluctant to rule for Trump is just a continuation of Josh's one-sided rhetorical vendetta against Roberts, and I would cite the same two counterexamples that Bob did.
I am not saying that Roberts will necessarily rule for Trump on these issues, but if he doesn't it will not be because he's reluctant to issue a pro-Trump ruling.
Congress writes the laws, and if they want to have non-political employees who are not at risk of being fired for political reasons, that is their prerogative. Nothing in the Constitution says or implies otherwise. People are stretching a few words in the Constitution way farther then reasonable.
I think the best approach is the one Blackman speculates Barrett will take. Humphrey's Executor may not have been correctly decided in the first instance. It seems to me there is a significant separation of powers problem when Congress creates independent agencies and vests executive power in them.
But the Court's stare decisis analysis weighs heavily against overruling a 90-year old precedent here. Political power has been vested in numerous independent agencies since 1935. The core structure of our federal government is based on the understanding that certain agencies are insulated from interference by the president. It is highly unlikely that Congress would have delegated so much power to these agencies if it had known that they weren't independent after all. Overruling Humphrey's Executor now would increase presidential power in a way Congress did not intend. This is the scenario where stare decisis is strongest.
The left doesn't care about stare decisis, except when it hamstrings conservatives/republicans. Both the New Deal and Warren Courts overruled long standing precedents by the bushel full.
Its not conservative to follow lawless left opinions just because they are old.
That's actually not how the law works. Not now, not as the practice of law was understood by the Founders.
Believe it or not, the Warren Court cited plenty of precedent, and set up whole lines of cases.
And when they overruled or narrowed decisions, they generally explained why.
The Warren Court wasn't originalist, but it wasn't lawless either.
"they generally explained why"
That's nice.
"The Warren Court ... wasn't lawless either"
So you say.
"Its not conservative to follow lawless left opinions just because they are old."
Agreed. That wasn't my point. The Court's stare decisis test looks to the extent to which there has been reliance on the original ruling (among other things). In my view, there has been substantial reliance on Humphrey's Executor - Congress has established various independent agencies on the assumption that they are not subject to direct political pressure from the president. (By the way, I would argue that Roe/Dobbs is at the other end of the spectrum. There was not a bunch of legislation passed on the assumption that Roe would last forever. In fact, many states and many voters never accepted Roe as constitutionally legitimate, which was reflected in the constant attempts to defy it and water it down. So, to me, the stare decisis argument against Dobbs was weak.)
The problem with overruling Humphrey's Executor is that it is unlikely Congress would have delegated straight to the president all the power it thought it was vesting in independent agencies. So wiping out agency independence would amount to a significant increase in presidential power, unintended by Congress. Some people may call this "conservative" because it benefits the current president, who fancies himself a conservative. But in the long run, strengthening the executive branch and weakening Congress isn't conservative. It is a rejection of the careful separation of powers balance chosen by the framers.
" It is a rejection of the careful separation of powers balance chosen by the framers."
Long dead. Time we adjust.
It in fact is. You do not understand conservatism, because you're not one; you're a radical reactionary.
Isn't it "Myers," not "Meyers"?
Yes. Another typo.
And a rather important one, since there is another important SCT case from just 3 years earlier, called "Meyer"
Chief Justice Roberts would *never* issue a crazy opinion that turns law and precedent on its head in order to benefit Trump. That's why he dissented in the Immunity Decision. Right?
I have a question to textualists and historicists.
For textualists, Article II, Section 3 says that “he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer of each of the executive Departments.”
My question is, if the Framers had intended to have officers serve entirely at the pleasure of the President and obey whatever orders the President gives or else, why would they bother to have included this seemingly trivial power in a list of otherwise major ones. A President who can fire principal officers for any reason or no reason can of course fire and replace them for not giving a requested opinion. It wouldn’t need to be said.
Isn’t the existence of this power, which suggests that it does need to be said, evidence that the Framers did not intend to create a President as powerful as is now claimed? If officers merely have to give the President opinions and progress reports, and that’s the ONLY enumerated textual power the President has over them, this suggests that Congress can give officers a great deal of autonomy if it wants to.
For historicists, although President Johnson barely escaped conviction, the reason was not because the Senate thought that what he did was legal. It was because a sufficient minority thought it not worth removing from office over, as the act was political in nature, based on a difference in policy, and not an act of venality or corruption. Why doesn’t the impeachment over this issue get some weight?
And remember that Nixon didn't fire Archibald Cox. He ordered Richardson to do so. When Richardson refused and resigned instead, Nixon still didn't do it himself; he ordered Ruckelshaus to do so. When Ruckelshaus refused and resigned instead, Nixon still didn't do it himself; he ordered Bork to do so.
Under the theory espoused by some here, Nixon went to a lot of trouble for nothing. Why not just fire Cox himself?
I think the most likely answer to your point about Art. II, Sec. 2 is that it is simply a redundancy. Of course that conflicts with the rule of construction against redundancies, but the rule isn't iron-clad or absolute. Among others, Alexander Hamilton, in Federalist 74, concluded that the opinions clause language was redundant: "[t]his I consider as a mere redundancy in the plan; as the right for which it provides would result of itself from the office." And this is far from the only constitutional language that could be regarded as redundant or superfluous.
"Senate thought that what he did was legal"
It might have been that too. The application of the law to the firing was disputed.
I really hope you're right.
The thing you got completely wrong here is that in Dobbs, Roberts would have upheld the Mississippi law, he just wouldn't have nuke Roe doing it.
So we're already at 5 vote for Wilcox to be gone, if Roberts is going to follow that.
So Trump wins, and Humphrey falls another day if Barret wimpls