The Volokh Conspiracy
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May Aliens Be Deported Based on Their Speech?
The answer, oddly, isn't settled.
Thursday's Fact Sheet related to Wednesday's Executive Order, Additional Measures to Combat Anti-Semitism, says (among other things):
- Immediate action will be taken by the Department of Justice to protect law and order, quell pro-Hamas vandalism and intimidation, and investigate and punish anti-Jewish racism in leftist, anti-American colleges and universities.
- The Order demands the removal of resident aliens who violate our laws.
Now, President Trump has promised that the Federal Government will: …
- Deport Hamas Sympathizers and Revoke Student Visas: "To all the resident aliens who joined in the pro-jihadist protests, we put you on notice: come 2025, we will find you, and we will deport you. I will also quickly cancel the student visas of all Hamas sympathizers on college campuses, which have been infested with radicalism like never before."
This suggests that aliens who commit crimes may be specially targeted for deportation because their behavior is "pro-Hamas" or "anti-Jewish." And it also suggests that aliens might be deported even if they don't commit crimes, but are merely "Hamas sympathizers" "who joined in the pro-jihadist protests."
Indeed, the order itself refers to 8 U.S.C. § 1182(a)(3), which provides (in subsections (B)(i)(VII) and B(iii)) that:
Any alien who … endorses or espouses terrorist activity or persuades others to endorse or espouse terrorist activity or support a terrorist organization … is inadmissible….
"[T]errorist activity" means any activity which is unlawful under the laws of the place where it is committed (or which, if it had been committed in the United States, would be unlawful under the laws of the United States or any State) and which involves any of the following:
- The highjacking or sabotage of any conveyance (including an aircraft, vessel, or vehicle).
- The seizing or detaining, and threatening to kill, injure, or continue to detain, another individual in order to compel a third person (including a governmental organization) to do or abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of the individual seized or detained.
- A violent attack upon an internationally protected person [a Chief of State or the political equivalent, head of government, or Foreign Minister whenever such person is in a country other than his own and any member of his family accompanying him or someone protected as a diplomat] or upon the liberty of such a person.
- An assassination.
- The use of any - (a) biological agent, chemical agent, or nuclear weapon or device, or (b) explosive, firearm, or other weapon or dangerous device (other than for mere personal monetary gain), with intent to endanger, directly or indirectly, the safety of one or more individuals or to cause substantial damage to property.
- A threat, attempt, or conspiracy to do any of the foregoing.
And 8 U.S.C. § 1227(a)(4)(B) makes clear that such aliens are "deportable."
Congress, then, has authorized both denying visas to people based on their speech endorsing a wide range of violence, and deporting based on such speech people who had already been admitted. Nor is this limited to illegal aliens; it is also applicable to lawfully admitted visitors, including those under student visas and, as best I can tell, those who are lawful (and longtime) permanent residents.
Does this statutory scheme, and Executive actions to enforce it, violate the First Amendment? After all, the First Amendment generally protects endorsing or espousing violence. Americans are perfectly free, for instance, to say that it would be good if Putin were assassinated (either in Russia or when visiting, say, Belarus), that Israel should start taking Palestinians as hostages (even if doing so would be unlawful under American law), or that Palestinians were right to take Israeli hostages. The list of generally constitutionally protected speech that would be covered as "endors[ing] or espous[ing]" would be very long.
Yet when it comes to aliens and immigration law, the First Amendment questions aren't settled. Here's my sense of the current rules, such as they are:
[1.] Criminal punishment and traditional civil liability: The government may not criminally punish aliens—or, presumably, impose civil liability on them—based on speech that would be protected if said by a citizen. "Freedom of speech and of press is accorded aliens residing in this country." Bridges v. Wixon, 326 U.S. 135 (1945).
[2.] Entry: The government may bar noncitizens from entering the United States based on their speech, even speech that would have been protected if said by a citizen. "It is clear that Mandel personally, as an unadmitted and nonresident alien, had no constitutional right of entry to this country as a nonimmigrant or otherwise," including if the denial were based on his speech (as it was in that case). Kleindienst v. Mandel, 408 U.S. 753 (1972). And this is true even when denying entry to foreigners also interferes with Americans' right to hear them (for instance, at university conferences) or to talk with them.
[3.] Deportation: Here, though, the rule is unclear. The leading case, Harisiades v. Shaughnessy, 342 U.S. 580 (1952), speaks about nearly unlimited Congressional power over deportation, but that language is in the section dealing with the argument that the deportation of Harisiades violated the Due Process Clause. The First Amendment discussion rested on the conclusion that active membership in the Communist Party was substantively unprotected by the First Amendment—both for citizens and noncitizens—which was the law at the time (see Dennis v. United States (1951)).
Lower court cases are mixed. For the view that Harisiades doesn't generally let the government act based on otherwise protected speech by aliens, see American-Arab Anti-Discrim. Comm. v. Reno, 70 F.3d 1045 (9th Cir. 1995), rev'd on other grounds, 525 U.S. 471 (1999):
[T]he Court has explicitly stated that "[f]reedom of speech and of press is accorded aliens residing in this country." … Furthermore, the values underlying the First Amendment require the full applicability of First Amendment rights to the deportation setting. Thus, "read properly, Harisiades establishes that deportation grounds are to be judged by the same standard applied to other burdens on First Amendment rights."
See also Parcham v. INS, 769 F.2d 1001 (4th Cir. 1985). For the view that the federal government generally has nearly unlimited immigration power over aliens, see Price v. INS, 962 F.2d 836 (9th Cir. 1991):
[T]he protection afforded resident aliens may be limited…. [T]he Court has historically afforded Congress great deference in the area of immigration and naturalization…. "[I]n the exercise of its broad power over immigration and naturalization, 'Congress regularly makes rules that would be unacceptable if applied to citizens.'" [A]lthough Price [as a lawful permanent resident] is justified in expecting the greatest degree of constitutional protection afforded a non-citizen, the protection afforded him under the First Amendment certainly is not greater than that of the citizen plaintiffs in Kleindienst [whose First Amendment claims were rejected -EV].
See also Bluman v. FEC (D.C.C. 2011) (Kavanaugh, J.), aff'd without opinion (U.S. 2012): "The Court has further indicated that aliens' First Amendment rights might be less robust than those of citizens in certain discrete areas. See Harisiades."
[4.] Selective prosecution: The Court has, however, held that if the government tries to deport someone who has violated immigration law (for instance, by overstaying his visa, or working without authorization, or committing a crime), the person generally may not challenge the deportation on the grounds that he was selectively prosecuted based on his otherwise protected speech. See Reno v. American-Arab Anti-Discrim. Comm., 525 U.S. 471 (1999). Outside the immigration context, such selective prosecution based on protected speech is generally unconstitutional. See Wayte v. United States, 470 U.S. 598 (1985).
[5.] Citizenship: Price suggests that Congress can deny noncitizens citizenship based on speech that would be protected if said by a citizen: "While a resident alien may not participate in the process of governing the country, naturalized citizens may. Naturalization decisions, therefore, deserve at least as much judicial deference as do decisions about initial admission."
[* * *]
Perhaps the Trump Administration will indeed start deporting aliens based on their pro-Hamas speech, and we'll get a clear answer from the Supreme Court. But we don't have one so far.
I should say that I don't support the deportation of aliens for supporting foreign violence (at least unless there is reason to think they will act violently here). As some of the examples I gave above suggest, there are lots of legitimate arguments for violence when it comes to foreign wars and other international matters. Which arguments are morally sound and which aren't should be a matter for debate, not for government fiat.
And I think that chilling the speech of lawful visitors to the U.S. does interfere with the marketplace of ideas for Americans. Indeed, even pro-Hamas speech on American university campuses has, I think, taught many Americans a valuable lesson about various speakers, groups, and ideologies. That would be true of speech by foreign students or by lawful permanent residents as well as by American citizens. (See also this piece by Sarah McLaughlin [FIRE]).
But in this post I've tried to lay out the legal rules as they are, rather than as I think they should be. I hope this has been helpful and accurate; please let me know if the analysis above needs correction or elaboration.
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It seems to me that a complication is that a lot of the pro-Hamas demonstrators, while they didn't get charged with crimes, still publicly committed acts which COULD have been charged as crimes. Trespass, vandalism, assault.
Do the crimes have to have been prosecuted in order to be the basis for deportation?
'a lot' is doing plenty of work here!
Among other things, it's changing the subject.
I am disputing the extent to which these deportations will be just speech related. I realize you have trouble distinguishing speech and smashing windows, but that doesn't mean the legal system does.
The OP asks a legal question.
If you want to ignore the OP, that's fine, but then maybe don't post.
Have you seen the legal system's response to the BLM riots? The legal system very much does have a problem distinguishing between speech and even violent action.
I've seen prosecutors who were Sarcastr0's ideological allies who share his confusion over the matter, but I doubt Trump will rely on them to make the deportation case.
I'm sure you thought that's what you saw.
How many times do you need to be told that's bullshit and plenty were arrested and charged and in jail.
Cool!
Please list 20 BLM rioters who were arrested, tried, convicted, and sent to prison for more than a year for their crimes, and what their crimes were.
Oh, and who actually have spent more than a year in jail, and didn't have their sentences commuted by some Democrat.
I asked that on X, and couldn't get the dweebs making your argument to provide even a single name. Let's see if you can do better
https://apnews.com/article/records-rebut-claims-jan-6-rioters-55adf4d46aff57b91af2fdd3345dace8
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/over-300-people-facing-federal-charges-crimes-committed-during-nationwide-demonstrations
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/20/1029625793/black-lives-matter-protesters-targeted
Not that you'll click on these, much less believe them.
"I asked that on X"
LOL.
1) Charged ain't convicted.
2) Anecdotes on a good day.
3) The Movement for Black Lives might be a poor source to cite for a study on the BLM riots.
1) It is, unless you posit a conspiracy of prosecutors.
2) What do you think J6 is? You want stats, try the first link.
3) Same, but the GOP re: J6.
1) It is, unless you posit a conspiracy of prosecutors.
Soros prosecutors ARE a "conspiracy of prosecutors". Taht was stupid, even for you.
Your cites are all worthless. So, is it because your reading comprehension sucks, or just because you're a lying sack of sh!t?
Let me state the challenge again:
Please list 20 BLM rioters who were arrested, tried, convicted, and sent to prison for more than a year for their crimes, and what their crimes were.
Oh, and who actually have spent more than a year in jail, and didn't have their sentences commuted by some Democrat.
So, you provide an article from "August 30, 2021", babbling about "just three people have been sentenced to time behind bars".
And, since it's from August 2021, NONE of the BLM defendants at that time had been in prison for even a year.
So, unlike your other two garbage quotes, that one was sort of on the right track.
But it didn't get there
I clicked on your third link, and then on through to the underlying report. I skimmed it without seeing any discussion of sentence lengths that would speak to "actually have spent more than a year in jail".
I confess some of it was rather off putting, e.g. the outrage that someone who torched five cars was charged with five counts of arson, or that someone found with a Molotov cocktail was charged with possession of a destructive device.
I added that link to equal the energy of the J6 outrage.
I put the best link on top.
Fair enough!
For Greg J: "The AP found that more than 120 defendants across the United States have pleaded guilty or were convicted at trial of federal crimes including rioting, arson and conspiracy. More than 70 defendants who’ve been sentenced so far have gotten an average of about 27 months behind bars. At least 10 received prison terms of five years or more."
(that's referring to summer of love charges)
Absaroka, yes, I saw that.
That doesn't say anything about the amount of time they actually served, as opposed to what they served before they were let out "because of Covid", or commutation, etc.
How is it changing the subject?
Maybe read the post and not just the headline before trying to police the comments?
It's changing the subject because the subject is the law as it applies to aliens' speech, not their conduct. Your quote is simply Prof. V describing his guess about what the Trump policy might be, but the post is focusing only on one narrow part of that policy.
Conduct is interpreted as speech in regards to 1stA sometimes. Violence of, and in, words has been advocated for many years. Speech is conduct as is the reverse.
Advocating violence is not protected speech, for it does not convey civil behavior, which is the basis of our system. Violence, in words or actions, abdicates thinking by resorting to uncivilized formations within a mind.
You are mistaken.
Deport Elon Musk
If you're a guest in my house, you can be removed for ANY reason I choose. I'd expect nothing different if I were in a foreign country.
Don't really have a set opinion on this but there is a streamer who disrespected a statue in South Korea and everyone on all sides of the aisle are cheering as they prepare to deport him.
I wonder: If these aliens, instead of cheering the slaughter / torture / rape of Israelis were cheering the slaughter / torture / rape of Americans, would Prof. Volokh, FIRE, etc. still object to their removal? I bet they would! Sorry, but I'm not onboard. I may be a "free speech absolutist" when it comes to Americans, but foreigners, who're here, as Jon Frum aptly put it, as our guests, are a very different story. The South-Koreans got it right.
I fully agree with the Trump administration that public support for the likes of Hamas merits removal from the U.S. (Again, we're talking about aliens, not Americans.)
If a person wants to remove a Catholic or Jew or Muslim from their house because they find the religion unpleasant, they can. It's their house. They have the right to tell them to go.
I would hope that such reasons would not be used in any foreign country I might be in place to do temporary business in or some such thing. Perhaps, in a theocracy.
We currently turn away Communists:
https://www.justia.com/immigration/naturalization-citizenship/party-membership-and-citizenship/
If a particular religion is intrinsically antithetical to the U.S. Constitution and our way of life, why shouldn't we impose a similar immigration ban on the followers of that religion?
Well, maybe in a foreign country, but in this country we put limits on what the government can do.
we put limits on what the government can do
(reads news)
theoretically
I said "the government," not Donald Trump. He's above petty things like government.
He is unfortunately part of the government & others in the government are following his dictates.
The difference is that you are the absolute "sovereign" in your house. Your decisions are yours without constraint or oversight. In most foreign countries, the king (or equivalent) is the sovereign and has equally absolute decision authority.
In the US, however, we the People are the sovereign. And we are deeply divided on this (and pretty much every other) issue. We delegate some of our authority to our government leaders but we withheld a lot of authority via the constraints in the Constitution. Prof Volokh argues (and I agree) that it's actually quite a difficult question to determine if this particular authority has been properly delegated or not.
Personally, I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea that we (the country) can deprive our guests of all rights with no due process at all. That seems a dangerous precedent even though I have no problem with exercising the same near-absolute authority over guests in my home.
If you don’t like it, you can always lobby for legislation limiting the Administration’s discretion and granting aliens more statutory rights.
It’s like abortion after Dobbs. Uncomfortable with the moral implications of absolute freedom of choice? Get your friendly local legislature to pass a law.
"I should say that I don't support the deportation of aliens for supporting foreign violence (at least unless there is reason to think they will act violently here)."
I have always said that, when it comes to immigration, "You are what you eat.". You want to see what America is going to become more like in the future? Look at what the people who are immigrating here today are like. Immigrants assimilate into a country, but the country also assimilates into the immigrants.
So, you want a country that's more supportive of terrorist violence? By all means, allow immigration by people who are supportive of terrorist violence! But how many people really want our country to change in that direction?
"And I think that chilling the speech of lawful visitors to the U.S. does interfere with the marketplace of ideas for Americans. Indeed, even pro-Hamas speech on American university campuses has, I think, taught many Americans a valuable lesson about various speakers, groups, and ideologies."
And the valuable lesson most Americans have drawn from this is exactly the opposite of your position, I think: That the US should, in fact, have been a lot more strict about who it allowed entry.
Mistakes teach valuable lessons, but the most valuable lesson they usually teach is, "That was a mistake!".
Straight outta white nationalism.
'It isn't that we hate brown people, we just think their culture isn't a good fit.'
The worst screaming fight-picking leftist antisemetic assholes are all white guys.
So are the mass shooters.
So are the neo-Nazi types.
I literally said nothing about race. Stop trying to turn every disagreement with you into 'racism'!
Yes, I think people who approve of terrorism are a poor fit for America, regardless of what they look like.
And I think people whose cultural values are similar to ours are a better fit, regardless of what they look like.
"The worst screaming fight-picking leftist antisemetic assholes are all white guys."
And when I suggest we shouldn't import screaming fight-picking leftist antisemetic assholes, you accuse me of hating brown people! Do you even look at what you write?
Sure. Not race. Culture. You know, Western Civilization. Other cultures just won't fit in.
Don't front; we know this song.
'being Muslim' = approve of terrorism.
'being black' = approve of crime and lazy.
'being Mexican' = approves of drugs and crimes and lazy.
Yes, I do understand that any time somebody says culture, you hear "race". Maybe therapy could help you with that.
Naw, just everytime you say culture, it's been about some specific demographic.
And it is here as well, isn't it? It's a specific set of national origins, who happen to share a religion and would all fail the paper bag test.
Western culture is the only one that willingly did away with slavery.
It should be paramount.
Agree.
"white nationalism"
Its like Tourette's syndrome with you, the "bigot" card expired so "white nationalism" is the new all purpose response.
You may have noticed I said more than that - I provided and argument.
And as of yet, Brett has not responded to my note that the set of people he's taking issue with sure do look like a demographic group.
I frankly don't see what the point of responding to you IS, at this point. I say I don't want us importing antisemites who advocate terrorism, and you accuse me of hating brown people.
That's not argument, that's clinically insane.
All of MAGA. As long as the terrorists are white right wingers. See J6.
All LOL.
Once again, people like you ignore the corrosive effects of the BLM riots the summer before. And despite how you will inevitably try and spin it, that is not about race, it's about ideology.
Maybe if the Biden administration hadn't engaged in political prosecutions, overcharging truly non-violent J6ers and then pursuing similarly politically motivated cases against Trump (for "stolen election" not just the minimal/justified classified docs case), we would not be here now. Yet here we are.
There is another timeline where the Biden DOJ only charges violent J6 offenders, never conducts a flashy raid of Mar-A-Lago and gets a misdemeanor classified docs plea deal with Trump and it goes away, and someone else is the 2024 Republican nominee because people are still disgusted about January 6.
The right encounters federal criminal law for the firs time. Is sure its harshness is special and directed at them.
DOJ was indicting people for misdemeanors this fall, 4 years after the event. Strictly routine!
You think 4 years is too long for a federal investigation?
Yes. Absolutely, it's too long.
Then perhaps some reforms.
No? Just special pleading, mass pardons, and revenge-based firings?
Well then, seems you don't actually care about criminal justice.
That's some impressive strawmanning, even for you.
Maybe you're not like everyone else. But the righties here, having encountered the federal criminal justice system for the first time, all went into hardcore special pleading mode.
I'm absolutely into some kind of resourcing/requirements to get stuff cleared faster, among many other criminal justice reforms.
It is when the injustice turns a presidential campaign into a referendum on the issue. Again, something the Biden DOJ should have considered, from Trump all the way down.
You can gaslight us all you want, but it contributed to the Trump re-election when various progressive DA's repeatedly declined to press charges against protesters with the correct motivations, be they urban violent protesters or campus antisemites harassing Jewish students.
In contrast to the zealous J6 prosecutions.
I realize we've moved into "the electorate is dumb" stage of the competition here. That's how Trump won, the people were bamboozled and had no idea what they were voting for. That obviously explains voter registration trends and the noticeable shift to Trump/Republicans (versus prior presidential elections) in blue states election results.
If Trump's administration had been half as zealous about going after BLM and Antifa rioters as Biden's had been about going after J-6ers, you'd be up in arms. Possibly literally.
How many times do you need to be pointed to the articles and statistics showing this is utter bullshit?
Your links failed to do so.
I, apparently, read them more than you, personally, did.
Oh, I'm sorry, did your articles and statistics show the government leaning on banks to inform on anybody who made a purchase anywhere near one of the BLM riots, for instance? Then ask for intrusive personal information about their purchases? How many BLM rioters spend 4 years in jail waiting on trials for misdemeanor charges?
Sorry, you can't gaslight people on this. Because we all saw exactly what happened, both how rioters were treated vs J6ers, and the election results and presidential approval rating at the start of Trump's second term now.
Who are you going to believe, some (incomplete) statistics, or your lying eyes? (No one has claimed this an exclusively a federal prosecution comparison. A major component of the inequity is the lengths gone to, or not, to identify and prosecute other rioters.)
You just gave excellent reasons that no country that values the rule of law should allow you entry
Does the fact Hamas is a designated terrorist group matter here at all?
It is a crime to provide material support to Hamas. It is not a crime to wish them good luck.
No.
This statement sweeps wider than Mandel who was a nonresident alien. Are there cases where green card holders have received the same treatment?
Presumably selective prosecution of criminal immigration laws would still be reviewable by the court on a defense motion to dismiss.
Under Reno v. American-Arab Anti-Discrim. Comm, the answer is pretty clearly no. Specifically, I think you'd have to get all the way up to SCOTUS and get them to overturn Reno before a lower court could even consider your request to review.
Unless, that is, you meant something by "criminal immigration laws" that is different from 'an action that ends in deportation'?
Seems to me that a society, through its elected government, gets to dictate the terms upon which aliens get to be in America.
Can the United States only allow people who believe in the trinity to come into this country?
Depends. Do you mean Donald, Donald Jr., and Eric?
I would say yes, if you don't follow the Nicene Creed you can be excluded if Congress so decides. The next Congress can say you have to be Shia. And the next can say that all religious people are too scary. A complete and total shutdown on all fanatics entering the country.
Once admitted you gain First Amendment rights and can convert. Or possibly after you are admitted on an immigrant visa. Some of the lines are hard to draw.
That seems an awful lot like making a law regarding the establishment of religion.
So, with a ridiculous hypo, you basically say that the society loses its right to regulate who gets to be here if they aren't US citizens?
I welcome Prof. Volokh to discuss various Trump actions that have a First Amendment connotation & discuss the law involved.
Trump's respect for the law is lacking but it is the responsibility of law professors and others to educate people about such matters.
One concern I have here is the lack of judgment regarding what a "Hamas sympathizer" means. A person who thinks Canada is a threat has not shown much nuance in this area.
Also, the broad (too broad) power in place here warrants careful discretion. A sometimes libertarian-leaning blog will be concerned about the application.
Mr. Trump no more thinks that Canada is a threat to the United States than Hitler thought Austria and Czechoslovakia were threats to Germany.
You’re applying a set of concepts that have no relevance. Great empires gobble up smaller countries to expand their territory and enhance their greatness. Of course the smaller countries aren’t threats to them.
What does he think about Canada, then? What is he punishing them for, exactly?
Same thing Russia is punishing Ukraine for. Exactly.
Mr. Trump no more thinks that Canada is a threat to the United States than Hitler thought Austria and Czechoslovakia were threats to Germany.
Hitler thought it was a threat to Germany's interests not to control those countries. This is also another case when someone uses "of course" to say something incorrect.
BTW, "legally" Trump alleges Canada is a threat -- it is a justification for the tariffs. What he thinks in his mind, well, I will let others delve into that cesspool.
I’ll grant you that. Let’s say then that Canada is a threat to the United States in the same way Ukraine was a threat to Russia before Russia invaded. Trump is taking a much lesser step. But it’s the same issue.
Constitutionally, aliens can be deported for any reason or no reason. So yes.
How does that square with 14A saying that all PEOPLE have the right to due process?
14th Amendment doesn’t apply to the federal government, and aliens are an example of the difference. Aliens have no constitutional liberty or property interest in remaining in the United States. Congress has instituted statutory process in many cases, and the President can’t violate statutes. But courts have jurisdiction over immigration matters only where Congress says they do.
An example of the cases where Congress said they don’t came up less then two monghs ago when the supreme court held, unanimously, in a decision written by Justice Jackson, that if the administration decides an alien has engaged in a sham marriage, that decision is completely unreviewable and the alien has no right to a hearing of any kind to contest the decision.
If aliens had constitutional Due Process rights in remaining in the United States, that couldn’t possibly be so.
https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/bouarfa-v-mayorkas-scotus-opinion.pdf
I misspoke. The fact that an alien has no right to a hearing was an uncontested given. The Supreme Court held that the US spouse has no right to a hearing to contest the alien’s deportation.
That seems like a pointless quibble, since the 5th amendment does apply to the federal government, and says "any person," not "any citizen."
It’s far from a pointless quibble. The 5th Amendment provides far less protection to aliens vis-a-vis the federal government than the 14th Amendment does vis-a-vis states. A key reason is that while the 5th Amendment Due Process Clause has an equal protection component, it doesn’t apply to aliens. While states can’t treat aliens differently from citizens absent a compelling interest, the federal government can and does. Huge difference, and one that’s right on point.
And aliens have no Due Process protected liberty or property imterest in remaining im the United States. They are here at our government’s pleasure. Congress can give them rights to hearings and such by statute. But the Supreme Court just this past December decided a case where it found that the applicable statute gave them no such right, and whether they stayed or not was determmined solely by the unreviewable discretion of the Secretary. The Supreme Court was fine with that. See link above.
Didn't Trump denigrate American Jews on the campaign trail....a lot?
Yes.
But Trumpists have a line of excuses ready.
Denigrate? Pointing out that American Jews support of Democrat policies was against their own self interest?
"Constitutionally, aliens can be deported for any reason or no reason. So yes."
Congress doesn't have the power to deport aliens to help establish a religion.
It’s hard to think of a hypothetical where the words could even make sense. But let me say this.
Suppose the Pope declared a crusade against the Moslem world to make Europe safe for Christ. Could the United States join? Of course it could. The United States can both join an alliance and wage a war with anyone, for any reason or no reason. If Congress ratifies the alliance treaty and declares war, that’s that.
Are you suggesting that while the decision to declare war is unreviewable, the United States somehow couldn’t intern or deport the subjects of the countries it is at war with, as is customary in times of war, because that would somehow be “establishing a religion?”
And if you concede it could do that, how can you then argue that it can’t deport the same people without declaring war? Deporting a country’s citizens is simply a lesser sanction against a country, like boycotting its goods. It’s just a tool of foreign policy short of war. If Congress can declare war, it can authorize any punitive foreign policy tool short of war as well.
Flip this around - if these students were instead neo-Nazis and openly said they supported Hitler, could they be deported? And would it make a legal difference if it happened during the period when we were in a declared war against Nazi Germany?
I'm not sure what you are flipping. It's still just a matter of speech rather than conduct.
The United States has executed its own citizens for treason for “adhering to the enemy, giving them aid and comfort” when that adherence, and the aid and comfort, consisted of nothing but speech.
"The United States has executed its own citizens for treason "
In this or the last century? I looked a bit, but couldn't find an example. The Rosenberg's, for example, were not convicted of treason but for "conspiracy to commit espionage on behalf of the Soviet Union,"
Who exactly did the U.S. ever execute for treason for "nothing but speech"? The U.S. has only executed three people for treason in the history of the country. I suppose one might argue that William Mumford was executed for treason for expressive conduct, which is almost like speech. But that single incident 163 years ago hardly matches your claim that the U.S. has "executed its own citizens [plural] for treason… consist[ing] of nothing but speech."
The Rosenbergs, for their speech to Russia.
Prof., (I am am alien, lawfully present in the US)
Legally it seems to me like you're correct, but this set of parameters just exposes to me an intellectually unsatisfying element of free speech boosters in general. One of the things you say in the post is that there may be more protection for speech from aliens currently present than there is for aliens who are not present but want to enter. Again, legally, that seems correct, but just thinking about it intellectually, not very satisfying -- and I think the is/ought distinction at the end of the post, while true, misses an opportunity to engage more broadly.
This seems to parallel arguments the "free speech" contingent makes elsewhere. For example, it's often argued that employees should not be terminated for offensive speech (or for some subset of offensive speech deemed to occur off premises or on the employee's own time). But anyone who is not an employee and applies for a job is surely judged based on their off premises speech, and no one seems to think it's a problem for a company to _not hire_ someone on the basis of their extramural speech. Or, it's often argued that campuses should not take measures to prevent provocative or extremist speakers from attending to speak; but the vast majority of people don't get invited to speak anywhere, so the protection is obviously conferred by the invitation itself and not a right to speak.
It seems to me like if you really value speech, drawing these distinctions is pretty intellectually unsatisfying. Or if one really thinks it's important to be able to enforce these kinds of speech punishments for those outside looking in, then why not enforce them for those inside?
I see a similar failure in Eugene's post. Normally we would expect the scholar to look at the available cases and derive from them a principle that would be expected to apply to the given facts, i.e., foreign nationals physically present in the U.S. on student visas, engaging in protected speech activities. For some reason, Eugene chose to cite only the basic bones of the analysis; he does not draw a relevant (or "satisfying") conclusion.
I suspect he does not do this because he does not want to go as far as saying that Trump's order is actually unconstitutional, or ought to be found to be unconstitutional by a court considering the precedents he's listed. I do not know if he avoids this in order to avoid appearing to be contrary to the Trump administration (i.e., hoping to secure a future appointment) or because he in fact wants to argue for a less protective approach (i.e., believing that Trump should be free to deport these students). Given his choices of emphasis in the excerpts he's chosen, I suspect it is probably a mix of both.
Of course, he caps it off with a policy position that is apparently contrary to the legal argument he is intimating - but it's the usual, surly approach that Josh prefers, where he acknowledges that it's better that these pro-Hamas protestors be allowed to sully themselves than it is to try to shield Americans from having to tolerate their presence.
This tends to be how Eugene approaches these boundary questions on free speech, these days - he looks for the arguments in favor of less protection. Public school libraries are akin to public school curricula. Direct regulation of social media platforms' content moderation policies should be permitted. And he hasn't even bothered to comment on the PornHub case, as far as I've seen, while Republican AGs are sharpening legal tools for suing media that publishes speech they don't like.
I used to think that Eugene was a free speech "hawk," but it's clearer than ever that he now believes only in a very right-wing version "free speech."
The United States Constitution was not framed for the purpose of satisfying your personal intellect.
Sometimes the task of being a legal scholar abd having to present what the law is and/or what can reasonably be argued runs agaimst the role of being an advocate for an intellectually consistent ideological position. I suspect this post represents one of those times.
I suspect that Professor Volokh realizes, as a scholar, that statutory law and existing precedent tend to lean in favor of its being constitutional, and moreover recent precedent has made it even more likely that the current Supreme Court will so find. But nonetheless, in his advocate role, he wants to come up with the best argument he can make for its being unconstitutional, without misrepresenting or contradicting statutory law and precedent.
This is a dilemma that can sometimes make Professor Volokh’ job much more difficult than Professor Somin, who tends to argue for an ideological position regardless of whether existing precedent supports it.
I suspect you’ll find Professor Somin’s posts much more intellectually satisfying as a result. I’m sure Professor Somin does.
This is a kind of weird reply that makes me think it is not to the post I made but to some other post here?
No, it’s this post. I’m saying Professor Volokh is attempting to accurately describe the current state of the law, which is quite likely not what he thinks the law should be. Nonetheless, by presenting the question as still open despite cases tending to suggest it might not be, he is trying to provide some wiggle room for courts to move in the direction he personally prefers.
He has to make the best case he can by drawing boundaries around the current state of the law and saying it goes no farther. Drawing boundaries requires making distinctions. And my interpretation is that that’s why he’s making distinctions you find intellectually unsatisfying. I personally also suspect the distinctions will likely be found untenable and not accepted by the courts. But I respect him for making the best attempt he can.
You may disagree with my interpretation. But it’s a relevant response to your post.
should say that I don't support the deportation of aliens for supporting foreign violence (at least unless there is reason to think they will act violently here).
But they're not being deported for supporting foreign violence. They're being deported for supporting terrorist organizations that have attacked, kidnapped, raped, and murdered Americans.
1: All "violence" is not equal (see for example "following the laws of war" vs "violating the laws of war". Or "following the laws of war" vs "committing genocide")
2: It's perfectly reasonable to operate on the belief that "support for terrorists murdering Americans overseas" will lead to "support for terrorist attacks on Americans in America." At the least, there's no rational reason for someone to support the first and oppose the second, other than a concern about getting caught.
Oh, and there were a lot of Americans who took part in the J6 protest. Americans who committed no violence. Who were invited in by the cops, walked around, didn't destroy anything, stayed in between the velvet guide ropes, yet were tried and convicted of crimes.
So no, I don't care if these foreigners went to a pro-Hamas protest where law breaking occurred, but didn't violate any laws themselves. Deport them, just like you arrested and convicted those peaceful J6 protesters.
And unless you can PROVE that there was not a single person as I described above who was convicted and punished, then the precedent is set.
It is sad that being on the Left makes people fundamentally stupid buffoons who can not grasp the reality that all precedents you create will be used against you. But your stupidity is not going to stop us from using your precedents against you.
Did you get your pardon yet?
I’m not sure I follow. Granting your premise, why would the fact that the government treated one group of people unfairly harshly justify treating a completely different group of people unfairly harshly for doing something completely unrelated?
All actions establish precedents.
Everyone who supported the J6 prosecutions was supporting the precedent that it's legitimate to do X when they are upset enough about the crime.
And that means that the other side gets to take crimes we are upset about, and do the exact same thing.
Are you completely unclear on the concept of a "precedent"?
Harisiades is the case I thought justified booting commies.
I noticed that Price v. INS, 962 F.2d 836 (9th Cir. 1991) and American-Arab Anti-Discrim. Comm. v. Reno, 70 F.3d 1045 (9th Cir. 1995) are both Ninth Circuit opinions. A quick look shows that the latter case distinguished the former with the heading: "The Government's [Kleindienst] Arguments Are Inapplicable to Deportation (a) Deportation Differs Significantly From Exclusion." So while Price still stands for a broad immigration power, that breadth does not apply in the Ninth Circuit to the deportation-for-speech context.
""Freedom of speech and of press is accorded aliens residing in this country." Bridges v. Wixon, 326 U.S. 135 (1945)."
This can't be right. How many times do commenters here say non-citizens have no rights under the constitution?
I don't see how Trump's EO rhetoric jibes with his own conduct. His close advisors and confidantes are avowed antisemites (Elon, Fuentes, Ye, space laser Green).
Trumps own antisemitism is legendary. Most recently he said, on more than one occasion, that the majority of American Jews -and, by inference, it would assume their children as well- are not real Jews unless they vote for him.
"Trumps own antisemitism is legendary. Most recently he said, on more than one occasion, that the majority of American Jews -and, by inference, it would assume their children as well- are not real Jews unless they vote for him."
And what if Biden's claim that if you don't vote for him you ain't really black? Does that make Biden a racist?
And Biden's hatred of all mankind (doesn't really sound right, does it?) has anything to do with Trump's hatred of Jews...how?
I just want to say thank you for correctly using "jibes" rather than the far-more-Internet-common, but entirely wrong, "jives."
My spelling is a nice distraction from all the rightwing Jew hatred all up in this bitch
No, of course not. Everyone has the same Constitutional rights. It is a clear violation of 1A to deport someone here on a visa for protected speech.
If a citizen grandmother can be arrested, convicted, and thrown in jail for years for the crime of praying in front of an abortion clinic, even have her home raided by an armed assault team then why can't a student that takes over a school building, holds the janitorial staff hostage, and vandalizes the building in the support of a terrorist organization (Palestine)?
Understand, my preference is that the praying grandmother that is opposed to abortion is treated equally to student advocating for an organization that is focused on eliminating Jews from the face of the earth (Hamas, the ELECTED government in Gaza).
I see we've got idiot talking point #27b. Nobody was arrested, convicted, and thrown in jail for "praying in front of an abortion clinic." They may have been prosecuted for blocking an abortion clinic; if one commits that crime, whether one is praying, doing interpretative dance, or playing parchesi while in the course of committing that crime irrelevant.
Of course, students can be deported for committing crimes, which includes taking over school buildings, holding people hostage, and committing vandalism. But the topic of this post is people being deported solely for speech.
It's probably going to depend a lot on the reactions of the particular judge(s).
I'm sure someone can find the case, but after McKinley was assassinated Congress required the exclusion of anarchists and the Supreme Court upheld this. Congress also banned advocates of polygamy.
But aliens admitted for permanent residence sometimes are held to have a greater stake in the country and greater constitutional rights.
I would imagine that a judge could take the precedents and fashion a decision in either direction.
Trump should spend less time obsessing about China. Some of the language reminds me of all the socialist realism I saw and heard there and how often official documents were attributed to The Great Leader by name. Trump is certainly aping this application of the Fuehrerprinzip. Everything coming from the administration has his name on it, including stuff he has nothing to do with. He wants, and so far is getting, all the credit for everything. We'll see if he's ready to put his name on documents reporting his failures.
Meanwhile, I'd really like to know exactly what counts as anti-semitic speech, or as Hamas-sympathetic speech. I'd like even more to know who's in charge of writing those definitions. How about when I say that criticism of Bibi or the Israeli government is not anti-semitic? For years after 1948 similar statements were argued about in academic circles and prominent print media. The question has become more widely discussed since 10/7, with an alarming trend towards the view that criticizing even a single individual is the same as dehumanizing an entire people.
It is my understanding that before an immigrant becomes a citizen, they have to know the Constitution and swear an oath of loyalty to it. So, it stands to reason, that if an illegal immigrant is speaking in contradiction to our constitution, then their ass can be deported on that basis - since they are doing the equivalent of refusing that oath before becoming a citizen. QED.
Kind of redundant, though, as they can be deported purely on the basis of being an illegal immigrant.
True, but of course this thread (as opposed to Mr. MSS's comment) has nothing to do with illegal immigration.
Yes, if you support by any means the extermination of Israel out you go. And why argue with anyone on here of such base immorality as to dispute it. The equality of all men, the Freedom of Religion, lawfulness all go against such people as ANTI-American.
And if this were pre-Nazi Germany who could complain about throwing Nazi scum out of the country. Only a fool needs to be crushed in order to learn a lesson.
Catechism of the Catholic Church 2241
The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.
Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.
Adolf Hitler never actually hurt anyone himself. He just said things to other people who did the killing.
In the name of free speech, Hitler did nothing wrong!
Signed - Democrats