The Volokh Conspiracy
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Trump's Attempt to Usurp Congress's Spending Power
The White House's withholding of federal grants, impoundment plans, and other actions, are a major attack on the separation of powers.

The Trump Administration is undertaking what amounts to a wide-ranging assault on Congress's power of the purse, seeking instead to usurp authority over federal spending. Today, the Office of Management and Budget issued a memo mandating a "temporary pause" on the disbursement of nearly all federal grants allocated by Congress, with the important exception of those going "directly to individuals" (as opposed to organizations and state and local governments). As in his first term, Trump is again planning to deny federal funds to sanctuary jurisdictions unless they accept his dictates on immigration policy. Earlier, he suspended nearly all foreign aid programs, except those for Israel and Egypt. Trump also recently threatened to withhold disaster relief funds from California, unless they adopt his preferred changes to state election law. More generally, he and his underlings have far-reaching plans to "impound" federal spending they disapprove of.
In combination, this is a massive assault on Congress' power over federal spending. The Spending Clause of the Constitution is clear in giving Congress, not the president, the power to allocate federal spending. When it comes to conditions imposed on grants to state and local governments, the Supreme Court has long made clear that they too must be imposed by Congress, and meet a number of other requirements, as well. Such conditions must, among other things, 1) be enacted and clearly indicated by Congress (the executive cannot make up its own grant conditions), 2) be related to the purposes of the grant in question (e.g. - grants for health care or education cannot be conditioned on immigration enforcement), and 3) not be "coercive." Thus, for example, even Congress could not condition disaster aid on changes in state election law, because the two issues are not related.
Some might argue that many of the Administration's actions on spending are no big deal because they are only "temporary." But if the White House can "temporarily" withhold congressionally allocated funds for a month, why not for two months, or for two years? There is no logical stopping point here. And, indeed, Russell Vought, Trump's nominee to head the Office of Management and Budget, has argued that the president has a general power to "impound" congressionally authorized spending for as long as he wants.
Trump isn't the first president to impinge on Congress's spending power. Joe Biden, for example, did so by trying to forgive hundreds of billions of dollars in federal student loans, without proper congressional authorization. I condemned his action, and supported the Supreme Court's decision invalidating it. But Trump's assault on congressional spending authority is distinctive in its sweeping, all-encompassing nature. Previous presidents, at least since Richard Nixon, didn't claim any such limitless power to impound any and all federal funds.
In some cases, of course, Congress delegates some discretion to the president, on how to allocate particular types of funds. There is a longstanding debate about how broad such delegations can be before they start to violate constitutional nondelegation constraints. But that is distinct from claiming a sweeping power to withhold - even temporarily - any and all federal funds.
I believe there is way too much federal spending, and have long argued it would be good to make both states and many private organizations less dependent on various federal grants. But that goal cannot and should not be accomplished by the unconstitutional means of giving the president unilateral control over federal spending. It is dangerous to give such vast power to any single man.
Moreover, in many cases, the Trump Administration's objective is not to save money, but to use the threat of withholding pressure grant recipients into obeying the White House's dictates - as in the case of sanctuary cities and California. The goal is to further centralize power over many areas of public policy, not to put the federal government's fiscal house in order. A broad impoundment power would give the president enormous potential leverage over state and local governments, and many private organizations. In this way, Trump's impoundment and withholding plans are a threat to federalism, as well as separation of powers.
Legal scholar Zachary Price has published an excellent critique of the (weak) case for the constitutionality of impoundment. Georgetown law Prof. Steve Vladeck has a more thorough analysis and critique of the "temporary" grant funding freeze. As he notes, the measure violates the Impoundment Control Act of 1974, as well as the Constitution:
The question of whether a President can refuse to spend—to "impound"—funds Congress has appropriated for a designated purpose is one that has come up every so often in American history, albeit not on this scale. Sometimes, Congress passes statutes that give at least some spending discretion to the President. But absent such authorization, the prevailing consensus has long been that Congress's power of the purse (the Spending Clause is the very first enumerated regulatory power that the Constitution confers upon the legislature) brings with it broad power to specify the purposes for which appropriated funds are to be spent—and that a broad presidential impoundment power would be inconsistent with that constitutional authority….
Even the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, which tends to err on the side of the President in these kinds of separation-of-powers disputes, concluded in 1988 [under Ronald Reagan] that the overwhelming weight of authority "is against such a broad power in the face of an express congressional directive to spend…"
Thus, even without the Impoundment Control Act, the kind of across-the-board impoundment the OMB memo is effectuating, even temporarily, should pretty plainly be unconstitutional.
But the Impoundment Control Act appears to resolve the illegality of this move beyond dispute. Enacted in response to an unprecedented volume of impoundment efforts by President Nixon, the Act creates a procedural framework within which the President can attempt to impound certain appropriated funds. Specifically, the ICA creates a fast-track procedure for Congress to consider a President's request (a "special message") to rescind funds he identifies for reasons he specifies.
Under the statute, the President may defer spending those funds for up to 45 days following such a request (which, it should be noted, he hasn't made yet). But if Congress does not approve the President's rescission request within 45 days of receiving it, then the funds must be spent….
Vladeck goes on to explain why the ICA is constitutional and why the Supreme Court should (and in his view likely will) rule against the administration if this issue comes before them.
UPDATE: A federal court has temporarily blocked Trump's grant spending freeze. This is just an "administrative" stay, so does not - so far, at least - signal the judge's position on the merits.
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The new Reason reader contest:
Name the author by just reading the headline - - - - - - - -
New readers should also note that cult members are usually first to comment, and rarely about the substance of the piece, but merely just to attack the author. Although the author attack also lacks substance.
"cult members"
So you reply with an attack on the author in your turn.
You talking about Blackman or Somin?
I wonder how many times you've used that line on Blackman posts.
I guess "usually" does a lot of work for you here, which will implicitly refute what follows. I've been one of the first of late to comment, and I am definitely not part of the cult. Assuming you mean MAGA, and not The Resistance™, which is itself a different cult.
I've never voted for Trump, think him unfit for office. Not everything he does is wrong, illegal, or un-American. He does seem to provoke a similar response from The Resistance™ with them engaging in some of the same behaviors they condemn him for. I chalk that up to them having called every prior Republican president Hitler, a mindset where net neutrality and tax cuts kill millions, and the outdoor DC WWII memorial had to be fenced off during an Obama era government shutdown. I think that's what we're experiencing again here. People will diiiiieeeee!!!!!
The Resistance, of course, being one of those rare "cults" without a cult leader or any organizational structure whatsoever...
Since when do cults require a singular leader? What's the "organizational structure" of QAnon? Cults are perfectly capable of organically forming around particular ideas or principles. Just Stop Oil, Extinction Rebellion, Earth Liberation Front, and Code Pink come to mind. The pussy hats being their distinctive garb.
Nice deflection.
Ilya, you have zero—absolutely zero—credibility on anything relating (directly or remotely) to Trump.
... with Stumpy cultist weirdos.
To Americans who believe in freedom and limited government, he makes a lot of sense.
That's a pretty good explanation of all partisan attacks. They make sense to the partisans of like mind.
When a post makes sense to everyone, it might actually be sensible.
Having read here for some years --- he did not seem overly worked up about Biden's student loan vote buying scheme.
Once you know Somin is a Marxist Trump-hater, his positions are predictable.
Do you have evidence that Somin is a Marxist?
If not, STFU, you damn fool. You and your fellow cultists are destroying the country.
Country looks fine to me. People get up, go to work, take care of their business. They shop. Go to school. Love their kids. You see something different?
Now, if you are a criminal illegal alien...it is time to go home.
Or if you're on federal grant.
Or if you did anything with minorities or women or the disabled.
Or if you were hoping the US might get ahead of then next pandemic.
Or if you care about foreign aid.
It's not you or anyone you notice so no prob.
Meanwhile, you tell people to drink draino, always the sign of someone who is happy with life and doing great.
Exactly the same could be said of Getmany in the late 1930s.
What does late 30s Germany have to do with anything?
Everyone like to think their side is the communists in this Reichstag fire melodrama, being oppressed by the Nazis. Heroes standing up to repression.
Meet the New Boss, Not the same as the Old Boss. Parkinsonian Joe gave away Tax Money, "Forgiven"(I prefer "Welshed") Student Loans, Lap Dances for Zelensky, "Sexual Reassignment" Surgery for Military, "47"'s just making sure the works done first. Enjoy your National Pubic Radio while you can!
Frank
NPR gets 90% of its funding from donors, dumbass.
Then they won't miss the pittance they get from taxpayers.
Makes you wonder why they insist that 10% is so vital if it isn't.
The 10% doesn't go to programming or staff.
It's Community Service Grants to rural stations so people otherwise largely cut off from the world can get a connection.
Yet it's small Clear Channel commercial stations that come in best...
It's still a 10% pittance, according to Kevin Carson, who is trying to downplay its importance.
If it gets cut, who do you think loses?
Not really -- if NPR had to operate under the same rules as commercial broadcasters, they'd need a lot more of that 90%.
We can start with the 20 reserved channels and not having to pay FCC fees. Or taxes on the 90%, etc.
Some of those NPR donors are actually government grants. Just listen to NPR squawk, when someone threatens their government money.
Impoundment has a long history in the US. Somehow before 1974, we had a republic and no dictator, posts by hysterical ninny professors notwithstanding.
"The first use of the power by President Thomas Jefferson involved refusal to spend $50,000 ($1.24 million in 2023) in funds appropriated for the acquisition of gunboats for the United States Navy." wikippedia
A Democratic congress took advantage of a weakened Nixon to upset the Jeffersonian balance between the branches. About time the executive asserted its rights.
When you say "About time", do you mean that the current administration is the first one to do it since Nixon?
"do you mean that the current administration is the first one to do it since Nixon?"
No. That is true I guess but my point is the executive should challenge the usurpation of his inherent power by Congress in 1974.
He has no such "inherent power"; it is unconstitutional for the president to impound funds. And it was not made illegal in 1974; it was always illegal. The impoundment control act didn't make it illegal; it just specified how the process worked.
Except when Jefferson did it? No comment on that?
Jefferson doing something doesn’t make it automatically constitutional.
It shows it didn't start with Nixon. It shows one of the founders thought it constitutional.
Okay. So that’s one tiny piece of evidence against the text, structure, and the political theory and history behind legislative spending power at the time Congress was created.
I posted a more substantial question below. Maybe you'd care to answer that one.
Jefferson thought a lot of things. One data point does not 'historical practice' make.
Jefferson was a founder of the country, but he was not one of the framers of the constitution. So why would his view on a particular constitutional provision be entitled to any particular deference?
Near every president prior to 1974 impounded funds.
https://americarenewing.com/the-history-of-impoundments-before-the-impoundment-control-act-of-1974/
So does the President have the inherent authority to order the Secretary of HHS to immediately cease issuing social security checks indefinitely? If so, how is that supported by the text or historical practice? If not, what makes it constitutionally different than a smaller impoundment? Why would such a difference be apparent from the text?
So you’d feel the same way if this was President Kamala Harris and she announced she was denying federal funds to all states that refused to follow her directive to establish a Department of Antiracism, Equity, and Slavery Reparations?
You’d say that was a perfectly constitutional exercise of executive authority, right?
Hypothetical hypocrisy is always the least defensible of all!
Not a serious response. He's got a point. This is exactly the type of hypothetical that comes up at oral argument. Can you answer the question?
You never do. Why do you expect anyone else to?
Mute! Mute! Mute!
I mean hypocrisy is part of it but I’m more asking him to engage with the consequences of the power passing into the hands of the other party - as it inevitably would.
Allowing Presidents to impound federal funds as a cudgel to extract unrelated policy concessions from states is a significant expansion of Presidential power.
So would you be OK with, say, President Gavin Newsom wielding that power to force states to impose caps on carbon emissions? I’m not saying would you agree with the policy - obviously you wouldn’t. But would you be OK with him having the power to do it?
If not then maybe courts finding Trump has the power to do this isn’t such a great idea.
“into the hands of the other party - as it inevitably would.”
Inevitably is doing a lot of work here.
I agree this is the most likely foreseeable practical consequence (some of) the Supremes would point to in not allowing this to go forward.
Since the only other option is Republicans continuing to be elected President for all eternity it is inevitable that a President you hate will wield the power sooner or later.
“continuing to be elected”
My imagination is a bit more florid these days
You mean if our system collapses and power stops changing hands? That could happen. Though there are some strong monied interests very invested in it not happening.
"Allowing Presidents to impound federal funds as a cudgel to extract unrelated policy concessions from states is a significant expansion of Presidential power."
It absolutely would be. Is that what's actually going on here?
OMB Q&A Regarding Memorandum M-25-13
I'm not seeing any cudgel related use here at all.
I would say that there's a fundamental difference between cutting off funding to programs and institutions that violate the 14th, and cutting off funding to states that refuse to violate the 14th amendment.
The former is on much solider constitutional ground.
This is why procedure matters.
'Impoundment isn't lawless when it goes with my personal version of what the Constitution says but is when it doesn't' is just no-rules authoritarianism, rationalized.
If you insist your opinions, or anyone's opinions, are the only ones that matter, you're not going to be a very good citizen of a republic.
Rules matter. Standards that say which methods are allowed independent of whether you like the policy ends or not.
Anyone that argues otherwise is arguing for authoritarianism.
This was a response to,
"So you’d feel the same way if this was President Kamala Harris and she announced she was denying federal funds to all states that refused to follow her directive to establish a Department of Antiracism, Equity, and Slavery Reparations?"
And I think it's a rather pointed response. Some things are constitutional, others aren't, and we aren't obligated to treat them the same.
More to the point, Presidents ARE obligated to treat them differently!
Oh so historical practice matters now? Guess you’re against the non-delegation doctrine.
"I found an example of it happening once a long time ago" does not mean that it has a long history in the U.S.
Since you need a history lesson....
https://americarenewing.com/the-history-of-impoundments-before-the-impoundment-control-act-of-1974/
Lengthy lesson.
Useful review.
“Appropriations are not a law”
-Tom Cole
"Tom Cole is not a lawyer"
-Reality
"Lawyers are idiots."
- Every non-lawyer in the world.
And what does Reality say to that claim?
Actually the authorizations are the law. The appropriations must spent in the manner authorized.
Well, some of the usual suspects show up immediately to defend anything Trump does, no matter. Unbelievable (well, I wish it were).
Yes, Bob. It's a cult, and you are deep into it.
|/dev/null
Ilya, we don't CARE what you think about Trump.
|/dev/null.....
And I'm willing to bet Ilya doesn't care what you think about anything whatsoever. I'm assuming that whatever goes on in that so-called brain of yours can be considered "thinking," which looks like a stretch to me.
Question: If Congress does not have the power to direct where money is spent, what sort of power of the purse does it have? And if the president can just ignore any law that is passed, what sort of legislative power does Congress have?
Well in such a scenario Congress would still have the power to set a cap on spending.
Until, of course, Trump also decides that he can reallocate unspent funds on an "emergency" basis. Like he did with the wall that Mexico was supposed to pay for, after Congress refused to allocate money.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergency_Concerning_the_Southern_Border_of_the_United_States
The theory of emergency power is the Congress doesn't have time to act, so gives the President certain emergency powers.
Once Congress has time to act, the emergency nature justification evaporates.
Congress decided not to fund the wall, that's that.
Joe Biden, for example, did so by trying to forgive hundreds of billions of dollars in federal student loans, without proper congressional authorization
He did not as the dissent in the case showed but I appreciate your general consistency.
He even bragged about ignoring the Supreme Court.
I would like a citation.
Whatever this "bragging" was about -- and it probably involved finding another approach -- the point holds. The dissent provided a correct reading of the law. YMMV.
During his first term, Trump made it perfectly clear that he believed he had the authority to defy or ignore any provisions of the Constitution that did not suit his purposes. During the 2024 election year he said nothing suggesting that he's changed his mind about this. Now he is demonstrating, to his supporters in particular, that he will attempt at every opportunity to distort the clear meaning of the Constitution in pursuit of his so-called "agenda".
With this most recent attempt to circumvent Congressional powers ("the purse") and obligations Trump is simply doing what he's always wanted to do: expanding in potentially unlimited ways the powers and obligations of the Executive. He couldn't care less about how Congress may (or more likely will not) respond to this power grab, and he probably doesn't care about how the courts will respond. He seems to believe that his so-called electoral mandate empowers him to do whatever he and/or MAGA and/or the billionaires want to do.
We know that Trump is not the first president to claim the power of line item veto. He won't be the last either--unless he succeeds. It will be up to Congress and the courts to rein him in, since the public really has no say in the matter at this point. The professoriate of Constitutional law may do some good by making it clear to everyone exactly why his impoundment order is illegal, and should do so in ways that will reach the widest possible audience. Reason.com won't get the job done. Nevertheless, Ilya, keep on doing the good work and keep your eyes on the prize.
So you are saying Trump is carrying out his mandate.
His actual words were, "so-called electoral mandate"... How else would you describe such a narrow popular victory that he didn't even get a majority?
Trump just proves that having a piece of paper with the word "Constitution" written on it is not enough.
Irrelevant.
The point of a Constitution is to lay out restrictions that more than a mandate to violate.
Suppose a Democrat won the next election on the promise to outlaw guns. Would you be satisfied with the fact they had a mandate?
As if there were really any doubt about what a phony libertarian Somin was, this post takes the cake. His highest "principle" is hating Trump, and here, the great libertarian attacks Trump for trying to rein in federal spending. Comically, he attempts to draw a phony equivalence between Biden's attempt to spend hundreds of billions of dollars Congress had never appropriated with Trump's attempt NOT TO spend money appropriated by Congress.
Anyone paying attention during the campaign knew this was going to be an issue: impoundment. Common sense and historical practice demonstrate that Congressional appropriations only represent the maximum to be spent. The idea that the President must spend every penny appropriated by Congress dates to the 1970s. If you told your child, "Here's $20 for lunch," are you instructing him to spend every cent? Likewise, if the Congress appropriated $100,000 to redecorate the White House, must he spend every cent? If Congress appropriates $1 million for the construction of an office, must every penny be spent?
Again, historically and commonsensically, the answer was "no", and unspent funds were remitted to the Treasury. In 1974, Congress passed the Impoundment Control Act, to stop the President from doing what he had always done. It is an unconstitutional restriction on the President's constitutional powers, and it's about time a President stood up to it. A real libertarian would be applauding.
His highest "principle" is hating Trump,
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
President's constitutional powers, and it's about time a President stood up to it. A real libertarian would be applauding.
Stronger executive power is not the only path for True
ScotsmenLibertarians.You're simply projecting endemic leftist pathologies on me. Leftists hate their political opponents, so they assume their political opponents hate them. If you are suggesting I hate Somin, I do not. He might be a swell guy, though, admittedly, I don't know him. I just think, like many, he is so blinded by hatred of Trump, he instinctively lashes out at everything he does.
As the late Charles Krauthammer said, "Conservatives think liberals are dumb; liberals think conservatives are evil." The leftist believes his positions are so obviously correct that no one could possibly disagree in good faith, so any disagreement must actually be grounded in nefarious motives.
Somin is a leftist now?
You will know them by their fruits.
The leftist believes his positions are so obviously correct that no one could possibly disagree in good faith, so any disagreement must actually be grounded in nefarious motives.
This is laughable.
You're right...that is why we laugh at them, and the spectacle they make of themselves (esp on Tik Tok).
"Leftist" here is some stereotypical creation. I dealt with this claim on another blog with another frequent commenter.
Actual liberal-leaning sorts regularly politely debate with people they disagree with who they regularly consider arguing in good faith (let's say about abortion) but with whom they disagree.
These allegations regularly come from people so darn sure of their own positions that so-called "leftists" must only disagree with them because (1) they are deluded (2) rather ignorant (3) have nefarious motives.
Again, perhaps, stones/glasshouses.
As the late Charles Krauthammer said, "Conservatives think liberals are dumb; liberals think conservatives are evil."
Why does that seem exactly backwards?
In any case, libertarians generally think both rightists and leftists are either dumb, evil or both.
Since you are unprincipled, you don't understand what principles are. Wanting federal spending to be reined in — something there's no evidence Trump is interested in doing — does not mean that one wants people to break the law to do it.
Assuming for the sake of argument that this were true — it's not — what does that have to do with whether it's legal?
That is a lie.
No. What a fucking stupid analogy. You're not instructing him to spend anything with those words. But if you told your stockbroker, "I want you to buy $1,000 of IBM stock," are you authorizing him to buy up to $1,000 of IBM stock, or are you telling him to buy $1,000 of IBM stock?
Yes. If Congress wants to authorize up to $1 million for something, it can arguably do so. But if it tells him to spend a certain amount, he can't decide he doesn't feel like it.
Not only is your law and history completely wrong, but your analogies are all disingenuous. If Congress told the president to buy a specific something for $X, and he could get the exact same thing for $X-Y, then, sure, it would seem silly to spend the rest. But when Congress orders $X to be spent on open-ended programs, there's no getting the exact same thing for $X-Y, because what Congress ordered was not to buy a specific thing, but to spend $X. E.g., if Congress says, "$5B to Israel for military aid," saying "I gave them $4B and they got some military aid, so I'll return the rest to the treasury" is nonsensical.
The president is not a fucking king and has no "constitutional authority" of any sort to refuse to do exactly what Congress tells him to do, unless it's a rare area where Congress has no authority to legislate, like pardons. The executive power is the power to do what he's told, in the manner in which he is told to do it.
Yes, if Somin were really a Libertarian, he would applaud cutbacks in federal spending.
...by Congress.
"But absent such authorization, the prevailing consensus has long been that Congress's power of the purse (the Spending Clause is the very first enumerated regulatory power that the Constitution confers upon the legislature) brings with it broad power to specify the purposes for which appropriated funds are to be spent—and that a broad presidential impoundment power would be inconsistent with that constitutional authority…."
Seriously, how anyone who was aware that impoundment was a routine Presidential prerogative until 1974 would have the sheer gall to write that amazes me.
Because it's not true; as always, it's what Brett knows that just isn't so.
https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S3-3-7/ALDE_00013376/
Grant and LBJ made threats.
If you want to stick with action, you'll have to stick with Jefferson and Nixon and call that 'long historical practice'
And appropriations language has been adjusted as well to explicitly not be a ceiling.
Isn't this the same system which forces departments to spend down their whole allocated budget by EOY, even if it is entirely wasteful and even if they were able to accomplish the intended mission for less than was allocated?
I can see compelling reasons to force executives to spend money that has been allocated for a purpose, but also can see the waste this has wrought. I'm in no way opposed to watching the branches duke it out to find some solution addressing the issues. Fight it out, I say!
As I noted above, if there is a specific defined goal, it makes sense for the appropriation to say, "Up to $3.5 billion is appropriated to build a bridge over the Ohio River at such-and-such location." And if DOT can get the job done for $3.4 billion, awesome. No reason to spend another $100m for the sake of spending it. But when Congress says, "$3.5 billion is appropriated for AIDS treatment and prevention," HHS doesn't get to say, "In our judgment we've treated and prevented enough AIDS, so we'll just not spend the last $100m." Congress knows how to say "up to" when it wants to.
The full Wikipedia quote:
The first use of the power by President Thomas Jefferson involved refusal to spend $50,000 ($1.24 million in 2023) in funds appropriated for the acquisition of gunboats for the United States Navy. He said in 1803 that "[t]he sum of fifty thousand dollars appropriated by Congress for providing gun boats remains unexpended. The favorable and peaceable turn of affairs on the Mississippi rendered an immediate execution of that law unnecessary."
A specific choice regarding the exigencies, not some open-ended attempt to impound funds. As noted elsewhere:
The next year, President Jefferson reported that the appropriation was slated for use. See Id. at 115 (Fourth Annual Message to Congress) (stating that the 1803 appropriation is now in a course of execution to the extent there provided for).
https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S3-3-7/ALDE_00013376/#ALDF_00023479
The discussion notes that there was some level of impoundment over the years but Nixon took things to a new level, resulting in congressional pushback. The earlier usage was like Jefferson's selective and defended on various grounds:
Impoundments usually proceeded on the view that an appropriation sets a ceiling on spending for a particular purpose but typically did not mandate that all such sums be spent. According to this view, if that purpose could be accomplished by spending less than the appropriation’s total amount, there would be no impediment in law to realizing savings. Impoundments were also justified on the ground that a statute, other than the appropriation itself, authorized the withholding.
Further congressional limits on discretionary spending would make Trump's moves more problematic, making these arguments less defensible as applied.
Next, you can look into the example of impoundment by Johnson, Kennedy, Eisenhower, Truman, FDR, Hoover, Harding, Wilson....
https://americarenewing.com/the-history-of-impoundments-before-the-impoundment-control-act-of-1974/
Yes, "over the years" means various presidents on specific grounds. Also, the discussion includes various cases where there was arguably in place room for executive discretion. Not quite the issue at hand, which is when that is not present.
Each case would have to be examined on the specifics with the notation that repeatedly presidents tried to push too far as Truman did in the Steel Seizures Cases.
If this was some limited thing, Trump would have more of a case, but especially with more statutory limits in place, his blunderbuss approach is problematic for the reasons various people note.
Here's a related question for all you lefty legal beagles:
The line item veto was declared unconstitutional because it inserts the President into the legislative process, allowing him to slice and dice laws as he sees fit, with the legislature left out other than overriding his veto.
Why then is it OK for courts to excise those parts of legislation which they deem unconstitutional? After all, one of the original duties of the President, as written in Federalist Papers, was to veto unconstitutional legislation.
Or to put it another way, if the courts have contradicted themselves in the severability question, and Presidents should have a line item veto, should that not also include the authority to withhold spending after signing legislation?
Or to reverse it, if Presidents don't have the authority to withhold spending, and they don't have the line item veto, then should all laws also not be severable by courts?
There's a lot of hypocrisy in that.
Well, I'm not a lefty, but the theory is that the courts AREN'T excising parts of the law. They're just stating that parts of the law, being unconstitutional, will not be upheld by the courts in legal proceedings, because the courts are bound by the Constitution.
That's a distinction without a difference that only lawyers could appreciate. Why can't the President do the same as a builtin line item veto? Vetoing unconstitutional legislation was one of the original duties of the President.
Of course the President can do the same thing, more or less: He can declare: "I'm not spending this particular appropriation because the statutory purpose is unconstitutional!"
And then Congress or whoever can go to court to see if judges agree with him.
In fact, when it comes to the DEI ban, that's exactly what he's doing.
The judicial power interacts with the legislative power differently than the executive power. That is not some big scandal.
Which makes the rest of your argument an own-goal. Line item veto is unconstitutional, so impoundment is because it's doing the same thing later on in the process.
Assertions are not explanations.
Q. What's the definition of a lawyer?
A. Read these Supreme Court explanations of common law as modified by these 500 years of case law. Get back to me in three years.
Not responsive.
I'd say the burden is on you to say that the cases and controversies guys are the same as the faithfully execute guy.
Let’s say Congress overwhelmingly passes an appropriations bill. The president doesn’t like the spending and vetoes it signaling his displeasure with certain spending, Congress overrides and passes the original bill. The president impounds the appropriated funds indefinitely based on a theory of inherent executive impoundment power that’s not explicit from the text. Does this make any sense from the text or structure of the constitution?
Where does the Constitution mention severability? Why is it constitutional for courts to chop laws into pieces they like and don't like, but not the President? The President arguably plays a much more important role in the legislative process than courts. Why can courts chop up laws but not the President?
Because judicial power is about 1) providing appropriate relief to the parties before it and 2) interpreting statute’s to further the intent of Congress. If a declaration that only a portion of a statute is unconstitutional affords complete relief to the harmed party and the remainder of the statute is constitutional and there is no textual or other indication Congress wouldn’t want the statute implemented without the struck section (and that’s very rare) then the only appropriate path for the court is to sever.
By contrast the president simply does not have a line item veto and it’s his duty to take care that the laws are faithfully executed. Congress is very clearly the drivers seat with spending and unless it gives some textual indication that the president has discretion over spending a certain appropriation the only course is for the President to spend the authorized funds as intended by Congress.
One of the original duties of the President was to veto unconstitutional legislation. Why can't he do the same as a line item veto? Why do the courts get to second guess Congress, but not the President?
Why do the courts get to second guess Congress, but not the President?
Check out Marbury v. Madison. It goes into some unique bits of the judicial power you don't seem up on.
In other words, you can't summarize it in any way except pages of lawyerly quibbles, so you blame me for not being a lawyer.
Not responsive.
At some point, you'll just have to accept that you're not capable of understanding it because you're not a lawyer. Simply insulting lawyers doesn't change your lack of comprehension.
Ah, you've said the quiet part out loud. Lawyers are superior to mere civilians, who are purposely kept in the dark lest they realize what a scam the legal arena is.
If you can't explain such a simple question to some dummy like me, then you don't understand it. Some physicists are remarkably good at explaining entanglement to dummies like me in a minute or less, but that's a real field, not made-up quibbling like lawyering.
It's not law's problem it's yours.
You don't want to learn, and you're angry no one is going to try and spoon feed you so you can not learn harder.
There are plenty of people good at explaining the law, of course. You're just spending all your effort not understanding and being angry about it.
And then coming to a legal blog to choose ignorance even harder.
Lawyers are superior to non-lawyers at understanding legal arguments. Doctors are superior to non-doctors at understanding medical issues. Physicists are superior to non-physicists at understanding physics.
You keep demanding that lawyers explain things to you and then every time we do you say "Stop using legal arguments."
Last night a watched a Kalb Report episode from 10 years ago, a joint interview with Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsberg. At one point they both agreed that maybe 80% of the Court's work is actual law, the province of lawyers and judges, where they mostly agree on things and there is no clear ideological split.
For the remainder, the high profile cases, Scalia further opined that anyone reasonably well read on an issue might be competent to have an opinion, because often the decisions are not based on any special education a lawyer possesses. Especially since most lawyers are not constitutional law specialists. Many constitutional questions are not merely legal ones.
I'd put it more as some intersection of elitism and protectionism, similar to other trades like real estate agents that ultimately depend on some combination of a gatekeeping guild and information scarcity.
There absolutely are good lawyers out there that are both able and willing to explain supposedly dense and complex legal concepts in plain English, but unfortunately most of the frequent flyers around here choose the other path.
Oh, and the answer to your question that nobody wants to say out loud because it tends to strip away the fig leaf and expose the deliciously arbitrary nature of it all: the courts get the final say because the courts said the courts get the final say, and the other branches (usually) don't push back (very hard).
aHA! An honest answer! I was hoping for an actual lawyer explanation of the hypocrisy, but I don't think any of them recognize such a thing.
Lots of people can explain it to you, but no one can understand it for you.
At some point, dumbness may be a factor.
"At some point, you'll just have to accept that you're not capable of understanding it because you're not a lawyer."
Then why do we have courts and judges?
I don't understand the question, but for the sake of clarity, I did not mean "Nobody who isn't a lawyer can understand it." I meant a specific 'you,' not an abstract one: Stupid Government Tricks can't understand it because he's not a lawyer.
...I dunno. If SGT manages to pass the bar someday, I doubt he'll encounter many difficulties in still not understanding things.
We have courts and judges (i.e. lawyers who resolve certain matters) precisely because some people who aren’t lawyers can’t (as demonstrated here) understand foundational legal concepts and arguments.
Marbury v. Madison is not in the Constitution. It is just a wordy opinion from some dead guy.
The constitution is also just words by some dead guys.
Yes, but the Constitution's words are actually in the Constitution.
The return clause requires him to send his objections to Congress along with the veto. And Congress must reconsider the bill in light of the veto objections. If Congress can’t come up with 2/3 of each house to override the veto it has to come up with a new bill more in line with the president’s priorities. That’s an enormous amount of legislative power, he doesn’t need a line-item veto on top of that.
What does "need" have to do with it? Why can't he just report his objections line by line?
He can. But he still has to veto the whole bill. And Congress has to decide whether they should override or pass a new bill more to his liking.
That's how it is. That doesn't explain the hypocrisy.
It’s not really hypocrisy, it’s just that 220+ years of constitutional development leads to things that might not make sense if you were designing a system from scratch.
What if it involved the "use of Federal resources to advance Marxist equity, transgenderism, and green new deal social engineering policies" and/or "woke gender ideology"?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/documents/deb7af80-48b6-4b8a-8bfa-3d84fd7c3ec8.pdf
If the judge thinks the money should be spent, he/she should cut the checks.
Hopefully, you see the problem here.
No. The judge is just ruling on the rights and duties of the parties. The judge doesn’t need to cut a check if the rule someone breached a contract for instance.
Trump can simply say, "Nope the checks are not in the mail."
Angrily discovering yet another power Presidents always had but only Trump has dared to use!
Do any of you guys consider what this pattern of yours ends with?
No, Jefferson used it too. Don't you read before responding?
Practically every President from Jefferson to Nixon used it, claiming an inherent executive power to do so, which few seriously questioned. Congress passed the Impoundment Control Act of 1974 which rejected an inherent executive power of impoundment, but created a statutory process for impoundment whereby the President could send a recission request in a special message to Congress. Who was the only president to utilize this statutory provision passed in 1974? You guessed it: Trump, during his first administration.
He says, citing one example of Jefferson using it and no examples of any other president, let alone practically every one, doing so, until Nixon.
One counter example is all it takes to disprove your statement. Now you move the goal posts and think no one will notice, because you're a lawyer and smarter than everybody else.
"Practically every President from Jefferson to Nixon used it" is actually not proven with Jefferson to Nixon as your 2 data points.
Yes, it ends with an election, doofus. The next guy comes in and does whatever.
This is about the powers of the President, which does not change based on elections. But can change based on what the President manages to get away with.
You've already excused Trump's actions as
legit because Jefferson did it,
legit because the words crisis and invasion and emergency mean whatever the President wants,
legit because the President can fire whoever he wants never mind Congress or Supreme Court precedents.
legit because the Supreme Court hasn't told him no yet.
Wherever this ends, it's sure not 3 branches checking one another's authority.
It's pretty obvious by now that none of you legal beagles have any responsive answer that doesn't involve going to law school. Probably explains why lawyers get so butt hurt so easily too, being shown up for the ignoramuses they are.
You want it to be obvious that no one can respond to your Genius demands based on high-handed but kinda confused analogies to the line item veto.
So here you are, having convinced yourself.
We're all very proud.
I think the intelligence of lawyers as a class is highly overrated. But a lot of times they’re right about how the legal system works and how laws are interpreted. And while not infallible a lot of push back from clients who didn’t go to law school isn’t because something wasn’t explained well, it’s because they didn’t like the answer.
True.
Also if it makes you feel better, you can go to a top law school, graduate at the top of the class, understand all the nuances of some doctrine or concept and it still won’t make any sense to you (or a lot of people).
Heh, ain’t that the truth
Who cares? Nothing he has the right to do will get done anyway, because there are plenty of Obama and Biden judges to enjoin everything he does.
The latest was a Muslim woman enjoining the spending block. I'm sure her main concern is that Muslim terrorist groups wouldn't be able to build bombs without U.S. grant money.
As I noted, citing more than Wikipedia, the Jefferson example is narrow. Not that Jefferson is some be all & the people around here would not like some of his views on certain subjects either.
Reference is made to Marbury v. Madison. A rejoinder is that it isn't in the Constitution. I had this come up more than once recently & not only here. The opinion is merely one example of a discussion of judicial review.
The opinion is a precedent by the full court of the principle, but it was applied multiple times by state and federal judges before then. Many Founders assumed it [Charles Beard covered this in his book]. It became a standard understanding.
But two examples. A carriage tax was challenged as allegedly a direct tax. Many Jeffersonians viewed it as unconstitutional. A case was brought to federal court to get relief. The tax was upheld by the Supreme Court. But, the justices assumed they had the power to decide its constitutionality. Judicial review was assumed.
Madison and Jefferson supported a Bill of Rights. A major reason cited was how the rights would be protected by independent tribunals of justice. The courts would rely on the BOR to protect the people from laws that violated their tenets. They would practice judicial review. Marbury didn't simply invent it.
The big debate turns on how the judges should interpret the law & the level of discretion left to other branches. A high level of presumption of constitutionality will result in many less successful challenges. Judicial review itself is less of a question.
Judges interpret the law. Art. III provides them broad jurisdiction to do so. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. If a federal or state judge tries a criminal case, for instance, are they to ignore the requirements of the Bill of Rights because a prosecutor or state or federal law says the protections are not required?
Lawyers are fine to explain the law but core basics can be understood by non-lawyers. Meanwhile, many lawyers -- including one or more members of this conspiracy -- have problems understanding the law.
A speculation. Trump will shortly front-and-center his proposal to renew his tax cuts. When that happens, practical souls will be looking over his shoulder, to figure out and publish how much renewal would blow up the projected deficit and debt. Trump may be blocking spending to game that politically, figuring he can claim whatever spending is still blocked cannot be reckoned against the tax cut costs.
From a policy, not legal, perspective, the spending power is not an either/or choice. Rather, it is shared: Congress decides what money can be spent, and the President decides how it is spent.
Certainly a "reasonable pause" in spending in order to develop a plan of execution is within the power of an executive.
And certainly if an executive can get the job done spending less than the amount Congress appropriated, he is to be congratulated for saving the public's funds.
But no, the executive ought not to be able to permanently decide not to spend any of the funds allocated by Congress. That's where things like a line item veto go off the rails.
Spending less: yes. Spending none: no.
But it doesn’t say the president decides how it is spent. Sure, in plenty of places Congress delegates power to the executive and then the executive decides. But absent that the president is supposed to be extremely weak. Here there is no delegation. It’s literally “I do what I want”
An executive "executes": puts into practice, decides operationally, hires and fires, sets policy, etc. The President is an entire BRANCH of the federal government, in his person.
That's what is meant by "he decides how the money is spent".
No, Congress decides how it's spent. Of course, Congress can delegate some of aspects of that to the president, and in some cases that makes sense; it would hardly be reasonable for Congress to decide how many paper clips for the DoD to buy, let alone what brand and from what vendor. (But Congress could do so if it wanted, and the president's sole responsibility and authority in that scenario is to place the order and mail out the check.)
Congress decides what it is spent FOR, but absolutely not HOW it is spent. What do you think a president "presides" over, or what a cabinet secretary actually does?
They decide how to spend the money allocated.
Leaving aside your ignorance of how directive appropriations bills are, what does 'how' mean, once the decision to allocate money for something has been made?
Because I don't see 'how' meaning 'don't spend money on it.'
If Congress gives him that discretion, then he can decide. But they didn’t! The president, is, constitutionally, a very weak branch of government. He doesn’t have the power to “decide how” just because.
Congress can say, and did say!, you must spend money on this specific thing. The president doesn’t have the power to say “I don’t wanna”
I would preface this by saying I consider myself a lifelong conservative, but I honestly don’t know what that means anymore.
But, obviously this is illegal and dumb. Trump doesn’t even attempt to tell us where this authority comes from. He just has it. He can do whatever he wants. The student loan thing was illegal but Biden did actually have a statute where he claimed his authority comes from. Trump does not.
Doesn’t stop …brazenly dishonest people from defending him all the same. “Oh SURE Congress has explicit power to appropriate funds but the constitution says nothing about the president just brazenly ignoring that. Where does it say the president can’t just ignore the constitution? Got you” like wtf are you people even listening to yourselves?
It’s so utterly stupid and unnecessary too. You control all three branches of government! Plus a bunch of statehouses! Pass a law!
I thought the impoundment power died in the 1970s. It was correctly rejected by the Supreme Court and put within strict bounds by Congress.
So now in the name of broad Presidential power, Trump is trying to stage a Back to the Seventies party.
The President already has so many legitimate powers, why add to them by usurpation?
(None of this is meant to suggest that Trump *invented* the idea of inflating the President's power beyond what the Constitution, properly read, warrants.)
I think some people see Trump getting into fights he can't win, and don't realize that he's setting up a whole bunch of Pyrrhic victories for his foes. Wins that will cost them dearly in political support.
Well, I guess you'll figure it out eventually.
Trump's a secret genius, and that's why his ignoring the laws and arrogating powers to the executive is politically smart!
Did you notice, Brett, that no one here is talking about the politics here, but about the damaging lawlessness this brings about?
No. Because for all your principles of freedom and rule of law, in the end you're just another member of the cult of personality.
No, Trump isn't a secret genius. He's a genius who has the singular fortune to have his foes absolutely obsessed with the idea that he's an idiot.
Your absolute conviction that he's a moron who somehow twice stumbled into being elected President is hilarious, as well as being his greatest asset.
Most people can listen to him speak and immediately understand that he is in fact a dipshit.
That dumb cowardly fucks like you (are you ever going to address your cowardice, or will I have the enjoyment of mentioning it every few days?) support his lies enough to make him President does not change his intellect.
It just demonstrates how stupid, gullible, and utterly replaceable you are.
No, he's not an idiot (though he certainly speaks their language), but neither is he any kind of "genius". Idiot-savant is probably a more accurate description.
(Do you actually think Trump could even qualify for Mensa? On what basis? DEI, maybe!)
Most Presidents you admire did just that. Certainly FDR , Woodrow Wilson, LBJ.
So the Great Society
"The Congressional Research Services notes that in 1962, before the Great Society began, mandatory spending was only 30% of the federal budget. Today that figure is nearly 60% and climbing. Medicare and Medicaid together cost nearly $1 trillion annually (in a federal budget that was $3.8 trillion in 2015) and, together with Social Security, are the main drivers of the national debt, which is now over $19 trillion (or roughly $59,000 per citizen)."
So many worse off, some better off, an overall FAILURE
To implement these orders, each agency must complete a comprehensive analysis of all of their Federal financial assistance programs to identify programs, projects, and activities that may be implicated by any of the President’s executive orders. In the interim, to the extent permissible under applicable law, Federal agencies must temporarily pause all activities related to obligation or disbursement of all Federal financial assistance, and other relevant agency activities that may be implicated by the executive orders, including, but not limited to, financial assistance for foreign aid, nongovernmental organizations, DEI, woke gender ideology, and the green new deal.
This doesn't say what Somin wants you to think it says.
In the interim, to the extent permissible under applicable law
Weird that this line doesn't show up in Somin's screed.
LOL, do you know what the extent allowed under applicable law is?
Because if so, you should tell OMB.
Why would we tell the OMB, when it's their job to know?
Oh, new game! What did grayboxtr0 squawk?
Based on Brett's response:
"Someone should tell OMB that"
Reponse: They must know that, since I copied the text directly from their January 27th memo. I thought y'all were lawyers? Can't even read simple English. TDS really hit some of you hard.
If someone asked you, "Why did Congress pass the Impoundment Control Act of 1974?" and you could manage to answer, "To control impoundment," then, congratulations, you may be smarter than a fifth grader, and you are definitely smarter than some of the commentariat here, who seem to be under the impression that Congress passed a law to control something that didn't exist, had never existed, and had not even been contemplated. Perhaps they just anticipated Trump fifty years early. Or perhaps these commentators would simply argue such a law was never passed, and, perhaps, such a law never was passed in the alternate universe they seem to inhabit.
Of course, one could Google "history of executive impoundment" or some such, and after scrolling through much current events, could find any number of examples, from Jefferson and Grant, down to FDR, JFK, LBJ, and, finally, Nixon, whose impoundment of billions led to the passage of the Impoundment Control Act, which rejected executive claims of inherent power to impound, replacing it with a statutory scheme, whereby the President could make a recission request via a special message to Congress. And then impoundment largely faded into history, with no President even bothering to make a recission request until President Trump did in 2018. See, e.g., Nile Stanton, History and Practice of Executive Impoundment of Appropriated Funds, 58 Neb. L. Rev. 1 (1974). https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2311&context=nlr&httpsredir=1
Progressive leftist demands infinite debt spending on leftist priorities but insists he's not a leftist but a "left libertarian" (ie. lying communist pretending the end state is real and achievable).
What are you babbling about now?
I'm pretty sure any "progressive leftists" would be demanding Congress pass some sort of deficit-bursting Bill, rather than demanding the President simply spend money which hasn't been appropriated.
I’d bestir myself a little bit over this if Congress hadn’t undermined its own power of the purse over the past couple decades with consistent failures to pass a budget—its most basic responsibility. Trump has a pen and a phone.
Though I'm not well versed in subject, I wonder about distinction between actions with clear intent to undermine purpose of appropriation, and actions which might add efficiency. For the latter, especially in context of expanding national debt and long term impact of that on national security, application of anti-impoundment limitations or requirement for a rescission request appears contrary to core Constitutional duties of government and the executive.
There is a difference in kind between what Biden did and what Trump did.
The clause in Article I at the center of all this says that no money shall be paid out from the treasury without being appropriated by Congress. But that only goes one way. A president cannot spend money that Congress has not appropriated, but there is no similar clause saying he can't refuse to spend funds that Congress HAS appropriated. Spending is an executive action, and the president can refrain from doing it if he doesn't want to (with narrow exceptions such as the separate constitutional provisions that members of Congress, the President, and federal judges are all entitled to receive their salaries regardless of any disagreements among the branches).
To my knowledge Trump has not tried to spend money Congress has not appropriated (except possibly in his first term, for the border wall). But Biden did (at least if loan forgiveness is considered to be spending).