The Volokh Conspiracy
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"Inside State-Run 'Bias-Response Hotlines,' Where Fellow Citizens Can Report Your 'Offensive Joke'"
An interesting story by Aaron Sibarium in the Washington Free Beacon. It offers a good deal of fairly concrete detail, always helpful in such analyses.
Such hotlines aren't themselves First Amendment violations, of course, unless they lead to coercive or discriminatory action against constitutionally protected speech, or at least the threat of such action. Even if they create something of a chilling effect on some people who don't want to get reported (or don't want to get reported again), that by itself isn't enough to violate the First Amendment.
Still, they do create possibilities for abuse, for instance if the resulting data is indeed at some point used to threaten the accused speakers (or deny them jobs or other opportunities). And I think they tend to create unrealistic expectations: After all, if the state says it wants you to report certain behavior, and tells you that it's bad behavior and that you're the victim of such bad behavior, wouldn't you expect that the state will actually try to do something about it?
Then when the state doesn't do anything, you might well feel let down: "Why isn't the state protecting me from this thing that it views as so bad?" Indeed, by framing certain incidents as bad enough to call for government response lines and then doing nothing about those incidents, the state may be exacerbating the initial offense that the callers felt at the incident, rather than ameliorating it.
And it might promote further reactions, such as litigation seeking restraining orders (even when that litigation ultimately goes nowhere, because the speech is constitutionally protected). After all, once authoritative institutions tell you that someone isn't just offending you or being a jerk, but violating (or at least jeopardizing) your civil rights, what kind of chump are you for doing nothing about that behavior?
To be sure, public reporting of suspicious or potentially criminal behavior can be good, even if the reports sometimes come to nothing. If I report that my neighbor's children have bruises, it might just stem from their having fallen while playing or it might stem from their having been beaten. It makes sense to have specialists investigate that, even if of course sometimes they too can make errors (and the investigation itself can feel intrusive to people who are wrongly suspected). I'm no fan of anti-"snitching" rhetoric that suggests that it's bad for people to report even genuinely criminal, or genuinely suspicious, behavior.
Likewise, if I report that someone is talking about how he wants to shoot up some sort of place, it's possible that I misunderstood a joke as something serious, and it's possible that the statement is too general to be a criminally punishable threat. But it's also possible that the person is indeed planning a very serious crime, and it's good to prevent that rather than to wait until it takes place.
But here I think the express call for reporting speech simply because of the viewpoint it expresses, not as part of an investigation of a possible crime or of an intention to commit a crime, strikes me as unsound and dangerous. Again, it's not itself unconstitutional, but it's also not something that I think our government ought to be doing.
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If a state sets up some agency or service which really has no application except violating the 1st amendment, doesn't that lead to a presumption, (Rebuttable, to be sure.) that the 1st amendment violation is what's intended?
Only if Republicans were to do it.
When Brett has to use a qualifier like “really” you have to think about how much work it’s doing.
Offensive speech often accompanies actual hate crimes and violations of discrimination law, so collecting reports of such can’t be said to “really have no application except violating the 1st Amendment.”
Hate crimes are nonsensical ways to overcharge. If the underlying action is illegal, the hate charge is unnecessary.
Hate crimes are usually sentence enhancements which rely on a very old tradition of seeing some motives as more blameworthy than others (see Rehnquist’s opinion in Mitchell).
A hate crime sentence enhancement must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury, Apprendi v. New Jersey (2000).
Ah Apprendi, the only opinion Harlan Thomas ever got right
"A hate crime sentence enhancement must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury, Apprendi v. New Jersey (2000)."
That is true if and only if the enhancement enhances the sentence beyond the applicable range prescribed for the underlying offense.
It’s also true if it increases the minimum sentence. And if it doesn’t do either of those things, I’m not sure how it would be an enhancement.
Actually "really" has not content in Brett's post. It can be omitted with no change in denotation or connotation.
Oh, really?
Oh?
There should have been two more "Really?" and "?"
The way I see it, there are no legitimate reasons to run this hotline and plenty of illegitimate reasons to do so. I don't see any reason to give the state the benefit of the doubt.
That's my precise point: The lack of any legitimate application leads to a presumption that an illegitimate application is intended.
It's no different than if the government created a "Church attendance hotline", where you could rat out your neighbors if you saw them go to church. Not in itself a constitutional violation, but it has no uses that aren't a violation, so you have to assume a violation is intended.
"It's no different than if the government created a "Church attendance hotline"
That's an inapt comparison, the government has no illegitimate interest in whether you go to church or not, but, as I said, offensive speech often accompanies actual hate crimes and violations of discrimination law and is evidence for proving both, so collecting reports of such can’t be said to “really have no application except violating the 1st Amendment.”
Should read "has no legitimate interest" in the first sentence.
Have you experienced or witnessed a hate crime or a bias incident?
"A bias incident is a non-criminal hostile expression motivated in part or whole by another person’s actual or perceived protected class, again meaning their race, color, disability, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, or gender identity. Examples include hate speech; using a racial, ethnic, or other slurs; displaying hateful symbols or flags; creating racist images/drawings; mocking someone with a disability; or telling or sharing offensive “jokes” about someone’s identity."
If they'd left it at asking about crimes, I wouldn't have been so negative about it. But they didn't. They were, expressly, asking about things that they ADMIT are not crimes.
No, the government does NOT have any legitimate interest in 'offensive speech' in isolation. It doesn't have any legitimate interest in asking citizens to rat out other citizens for 1st amendment protected conduct.
You keep parroting your initial comment without responding in any way to my comments distinguishing them.
"as I said, offensive speech often accompanies actual hate crimes and violations of discrimination law and is evidence for proving both,"
Which is kind of irrelevant to my complaint, because they are expressly interested in reports of 'offensive speech' with no connection to a crime.
My position is that, no matter what interest the government might have in aggravating factors in the context of investigating a crime, absent evidence of a crime they remain 1st amendment protected conduct which the government has no legitimate interest in.
Brett, this has existed in higher ed for about 15 years now, and the problem is that those reported are defined as mentally ill and discriminated against on that basis.
While I’m sure you have been reported many times for bigotry, and that he people who know you believe you’re mentally ill, I’m not sure the causal connection is there.
There actually are OCR rulings on this...
"If a state sets up some agency or service which really has no application except violating the 1st amendment, doesn't that lead to a presumption, (Rebuttable, to be sure.) that the 1st amendment violation is what's intended?"
If a VC commenter makes a comment which really has no purpose except begging the question, doesn't that lead to a presumption that the question begging is what's intended?
But don't these hotlines also send this information to the police/other agencies who will then 'intervene' by trying to force the suspect into accepting 'training'?
Do they?
In the UK, maybe.
Are we talking about the UK?
The concept is the same and it's happening there.
It’s happening in China too. And Russia. Etc., not really relevant.
There aren't any such hotlines in China, largely because it's so hard to make phone calls over there.
You see, the country is so full of Wings and Wongs that every time you wing, you get the wong one.
Oooooh, I'm reporting that!
So edgy!
I know! I stole it from Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator.
I can see where Willy Wonka would appeal to you!
I had read that as a kid, and then I read that to my daughter as a bedtime story about 10 years ago, and… it did not age well.
Nothing ages well. I re-watched MASH recently.
MASH is still a banger.
"Nothing ages well."
That's not always true and for those things that don't age well there's degrees. See also, life is complicated and nuanced.
there's that "really" again.
Public mediation service for civil-rights disputes (and unarmed, non-confrontational community support services in general) seems like a good idea. DOJ has had this since 1964. In many cases people saying offensive things do it because they are unaware, not because they are evil. And even if they have bad intent, mediation would be probably more effective than simply fining or issuing injunctions against them.
" In many cases people saying offensive things do it because they are unaware, not because they are evil."
...or the listener is a snowflake who takes offense at anyone with a different opinion.
That's very charitable. Let's apply it to this blog and see if it rings true:
"In many cases the rednecks here saying offensive things [such as racism, bigotry and extrajudicial murder advocation] do it because they are unaware, not because they are evil MAGA hillbillies."
An offensive joke could be relevant for a business/employee discrimination action. Maybe the hotline should be a bit more specific about what contexts to report this kind of thing.
Like when you got reported for your "your Momma" rants?
Was that a business/employee discrimination situation?
It could be related. Regular commenters at this site understand that if you were put in a position working with someone who's kid held a political position that you disagreed with, you would be very likely to make unwanted sexual advances at this coworker.
What’s this outrage d’jour?
Huh? It's a joke, son.
About what?
Sigh. There may be a perception that you have a penchant for making jokes about having sex with the moms of people you disagree with.
Now, I don't have a problem with people joking about having sex with other people's moms, or in your case, with people accurately saying that they had sex with your mom. What I was joking about was you would irl try to have sex with the moms of people you disagree with, and in the workplace that could cause a problem.
Ah. I’m not sure you understand how jokes about another’s mother’s promiscuity work. You might want to google them again.
I would, but the back of your mom's head keeps banging into my keyboard, so it's hard for me to type.
I'm not sure your explanation made things better
"Regular commenters at this site understand that if you were put in a position working with someone who's kid held a political position that you disagreed with, you would be very likely to make unwanted sexual advances at this coworker."
I see this comment was made eight hours ago. That would have been about 10 a.m. on the east coast and 7 a.m. on the west coast. Pretty early in the day to be drunk.
The filthy piece of shit who can't practice law because he stole from clients is throwing shade! Oh no!
"Maybe the hotline should be a bit more specific about what contexts to report this kind of thing."
It actually was fairly specific that the context included cases with no legal significance at all.
I remember a science fiction story where a distantly related service turned out to be a trap. They were looking for intolerant people, like the kind who calls on the authorities to crack down on different points of view. Like when you call 911 the police are going to look you up to see if there is any derogatory information in the system. I've seen plenty of stories where the 911 caller ended up arrested.
Not sure how that could be classed as science fiction. Where's the science?
Is 1984 science fiction? Does it matter?
Shortly before he died, Hugo Gernsback famously complained that three of the first four Hugo award winners for best SF short story were not based on science.
If you're curious, they would be "The Star" Arthur C. Clarke, "Or All the Seas with Oysters" Avram Davidson, and "That Hell-Bound Train" by Robert Bloch.
Philip K. Dick, I believe. Can't remember the title.
A friend of mine wants to know in what state does the
dearlydeparted Reverend reside. I am assured it is completely unrelated to the article.Check the Georgia Guidestones.
You think he resides in the past? They got blown up a couple years ago.
He still lurks there, hoping to rekindle the faith. Humming "Imagine" to himself . . .
There was a guy at a local university who called the bias-response hotline to report that his parrot was stolen.
The person on the phone, confused, said, "Sir, you don't need to call this hotline to report a stolen parrot, you should call the campus police."
The caller responded, "Yes, I'm going to call them next. I just wanted to call you guys first and let you know that I don't agree with a thing that that bird says!"
As I've said before (this was before last year's elections):
I bet we're going to have more and more occasions to recycle old Soviet jokes...
My few contacts with police, county bureaucrats, and others like them lead me to believe that their arrogance and lack of accountability are a large part of the problem. They use the right words -- sir, excuse me, I apologize, thank you -- but the tone of their voice, their body language, and the near-absolute refusal to actually listen to people and modify their purpose is galling. "We're just doing our duty. We have to check up on these things."
Whether training would help adjust their attitudes, I doubt. They know they have the legal authority to be assholes and they don't care if you call someone and complain. "Yes ma'am, that's your right." And back at the station or office, they probably joke about it.
One thing that might help is passing out coupons good for a free ice cream cone, or family coupons for pizza. Or movies, McDonalds, anything which costs them $$$ and saves people $$$. Even if they do it by rote and their whole posture and language makes it seem like they're doing a great favor which people should be thankful for, it might help just a little.
On the other hand, if some cop or social worker came a-knocking to tell me that someone had complained I had told a bad joke, I don't think there's a damned thing they could say that wouldn't make me think worse of them and the government or agency they represent. I might be tempted to tell even more stupid jokes, and when the drone showed up, just hold out my hand, "Give me the coupon", and shut the door in their face. You get more of what you subsidize, after all.
"It makes sense to have specialists investigate that, even if of course sometimes they too can make errors (and the investigation itself can feel intrusive to people who are wrongly suspected)."
This is only true if you believe that the "specialists" are likely to do more good than harm. And based on anecdotal evidence, this is a highly questionable assumption.
"Expert" comes from the Greek, "X" for unknown and "spurt" for a little drip under pressure.
"It makes sense to have specialists investigate that, even if of course sometimes they too can make errors (and the investigation itself can feel intrusive to people who are wrongly suspected). "
This, of course, depends on the frequency of the errors. If you report that your neighbors' children have bruises, you are potentially putting them at risk of having their children wrongly taken away, and subjecting them to a wrongful conviction of child abuse.
In addition, my understanding is that they will have their home searched, with or without consent, and be subject to a variety of sanctions based on the results of the search and the whims of some low-level bureaucrats. They may have to take substance abuse classes if the social workers find booze in the house, or have to have future inspections if the house is cluttered, or have to take parenting classes if the social workers feel that such requirements suit their whims.
I would imagine that all this feels very intrusive.
“And based on anecdotal evidence”
And another! It’s like a jenga tower of anecdotes.
Do you have a better way to assess a question like this? Sometimes, often most of the time, anecdotal evidence is all we have to go on.
If you have access to better information I'd love to hear it.
Maybe hold back on a generalization if all you have is anecdotal data (and such filtered through a quite partisan person’s experience)?
Hold back how? If all I have is anecdotal evidence, do I assume that reporting kids with bruises is likely to help, or likely to hurt?
Remember what Rush said.
"and such filtered through a quite partisan person’s experience"
I'm not partisan at all, I'm quite neutral. It may be your own partisanship that causes you to perceive me as partisan.
Review the literature of rigorous studies? Wacky, I know.
“I'm not partisan at all, I'm quite neutral.”
Quite lacking in self-awareness!
As he said, "If all I have is anecdotal evidence ..."
My neighbor's kid has bruises, I'd better review the literature of rigorous studies, OK... but I heard that sometimes the literature mis-describes the studies, or sometimes there are problems with the studies themselves...
TwelveInchPianist: “Guess I better go with my personal experiences of the social workers who came to my house because my mom kept making all those noises when her man friends visited while daddy was away!”
You don't know what anecdotal evidence is, I see.
Like Mr. Magoo, I guess.
Well, consider that calls to a hotline are themselves anecdotal.
worldwariibomberwithbulletholes.jpg
“My few contacts with police, county bureaucrats, and others like them lead me to believe”
Lol, awesome!
What's awesome?
A generalization fallacy so plainly copped to.
Again, how are people supposed to assess police, county bureaucrats, and others like them, other than the relatively few contacts they have with them?
Assess the ones you know by what you know and be cautious about assessing those you don’t. You know, like how you assess black people, or Jews or people that have had sex, right?
"Assess the ones you know by what you know and be cautious about assessing those you don’t."
Fair enough. "Caution" would involve not inviting people with loads of power to intervene in my neighbor's lives unless I was certain it would do more harm than good, no?
I actually agree here but note this doesn’t rest on any empirical generalization about a class of people.
What the heck is your problem this morning? I'm not pretending to have absolute knowledge. If you think I'm lying, have the guts to come out and say so. Otherwise, your outrage is worth less than a gallon of cold spit.
I’m saying people often perceive certain experiences in biased ways and so such personal experiences are not reliable (and especially so as the basis for a generalization).
You're saying stupid.
I’m saying human, you’re the one who stupidly thinks that means stupid.
"people often perceive certain experiences in biased ways"
Who is the elephant, and who is the rider?
compare "Japanese student's" comment above:
More effective to do what? To "rectify" their (wrong) thinking? Who the fuck are you to tell anyone that their thinking needs rectifying?! (The "you" in this sentence applies not just to the above commenter but anyone, up to and including President Biden (who regularly spoke in this tenor).)
Or, as a non-VC Reason commenter put it:
https://reason.com/2025/01/15/legal-education-has-lost-its-way/?comments=true#comment-10869705
Government agents don't generally care because they know there are no consequences for bad behavior.
I know you Sov Cits have authority and mask issues. But 2 years of watching body cams on FB has demonstrated our police behave excruciatingly professional and patient. Of course, unlike yourself, I don't have deep issues with my fellow man as a whole
[Lord, we really are the law and order party now. Ironic]
Other wrongthink of the past lead to reporting on one's neighbor, blacklists, and so on.
A few years back, the Will & Grace morons fancied their rightthink so powerful, they suggested Hollywood recreate blacklists. Wiser heads quickly shut them down.
I'll bet they're glad of it at this point. Which is the point why these things are bad, not why they are used.
Shall we have hotlines to report on your neighbors who are enchanted with heavy-handed socialism or communism? Transparently communism leads to empty shelves and long lines. Maybe create lists of said folk. Maybe force them to take a class.
Burned Salem witches have entered the chat.
And hanged ones.
Those who ignore history...
Danvers witches, and none were burned...
Has there been any litigation on the Oregon hotline? If not, why not? Talk is cheap.
Litigation requires standing, standing requires injury. Injury might be denied because government actors can hide behind "if it saves only one life . . "
Don't pretend that standing has a clear standard. It's wrought with exceptions and enough subjectivity that judges can find standing if they want, and deny standing if they don't want the case to proceed.
so, "perceptions skewed by biases"?
That would not in fact be a basis to deny injury. The… lack of injury would be a basis to deny injury.
So ... if no one has been injured, then it's up to the people and government of Oregon to decide whether this is a good use of money/resources, or not. There's plenty of things that government does that I prefer they wouldn't, but if it's legal (per the judiciary) then it's up to the electorate.
Somebody who lives in one of these states and cares can see how much information can be extracted using the state's FOIA law.
No, they won't release it.
Well there you have it folks!
Yep, one doesn't have to be a legal genius to notice the "investigation" exception to the state FIOA statute.
Even if the only thing the government does on receiving a report is to send a cop or bureaucrat to have a conversation with the person reported, if the sole reason for that conversation is protected speech, that still strikes me as a First Amendment violation.
That's part of why I want to know what REALLY happened in Vermont last Monday. It's now come out that there were THREE LEO vehicles, including at least one FBI guy, and a pretextual stop on the basis of a "computer error", and wrapping cell phones with aluminum foil.
WHY wrap phones with foil -- all it would do is prevent the phone from working, which taking out the battery would also do.
Not sure why you keep posting about this, let alone in irrelevant threads, but not only are you mistaken about aluminum foil, but you apparently haven't bought a cell phone in quite some time; very few have removable batteries.
And you don't know much about law enforcement.
When they seize a cell phone, they put it in a Farady bag (tin foil) to prevent the perp from remotely erasing it.
I last bought a cell phone 2 months ago and it has a removable battery.
I mean, that's sometimes true… but I have no idea how you think it's related to any part of this discussion or any other.
Part of why you want to know what REALLY happened in Vermont is the fact that Riva thinks it violates the first amendment if a bureaucrat talks to someone because of their speech?
This is "River," not "Riva."
Good point!
If it involves stopping a motor vehicle for that purpose?
You think that law enforcement initiated the traffic stop because someone had called a bias incident hotline about them?
An FBI agent essentially stated that in her sworn court document.
Does "essentially" mean that in fact she didn't state that?
If you’re referring to the affidavit in support of the criminal complaint, it very much does not state that essentially that: it says that 1. the vehicle was stopped for an immigration inspection and that 2. six days before the shooting, a hotel employee called the police because he thought it was strange and concerning that the defendant and her cohort had checked in while wearing all black tactical clothing and carrying a gun.
"Even if the only thing the government does on receiving a report is to send a cop or bureaucrat to have a conversation with the person reported, if the sole reason for that conversation is protected speech, that still strikes me as a First Amendment violation."
Where is the injury in fact, Riva? "When law enforcement officers who are not armed with a warrant knock on a door, they do no more than any private citizen might do. And whether the person who knocks on the door and requests the opportunity to speak is a police officer or a private citizen, the occupant has no obligation to open the door or to speak." Kentucky v. King, 563 U.S. 452, 469-470 (2011). "And even if an occupant chooses to open the door and speak with the officers, the occupant need not allow the officers to enter the premises and may refuse to answer any questions at any time." Id., at 470.
Once gain: River, not Riva.
Note that people who say something arguably menacing about a president will frequently find themselves subject to a visit from the FBI or secret service, even if the speech itself is clearly on the protected side of the true threat line. They cannot arrest, but they can come around to assess, "Is this person just an online blowhard, or a potential threat?"
Sorry, I stand corrected.
Be that as it may. a mere visit from a law enforcement officer, unnerving as it may be, is not a constitutional tort.
And, as everyone (Or at least Supreme court justices.) knows, you're free to go when a cop is questioning you, as long as he hasn't used the word "arrest". [/sarc]
Of course one is free to go when being questioned by a police officer. As I pointed out downthread, "When law enforcement officers who are not armed with a warrant knock on a door, they do no more than any private citizen might do. And whether the person who knocks on the door and requests the opportunity to speak is a police officer or a private citizen, the occupant has no obligation to open the door or to speak." Kentucky v. King, 563 U.S. 452, 469-470 (2011). "And even if an occupant chooses to open the door and speak with the officers, the occupant need not allow the officers to enter the premises and may refuse to answer any questions at any time." Id., at 470.
Yeah, but Brett is right in a practical sense. Even assuming that cops are going to stay on the right side of the law and don't lie or force the issue — something there's no way to know in advance — non-middle-aged white male lawyers may not feel free to asserts their rights, even if they know them.
Hell, I am a middle-aged white male lawyer, and I'm not confident that if I chose to leave when a cop is asking me questions that the cop won't decide I'm guilty of contempt of cop.
I mean, the thing you said sarcastically is a correct statement of the law.
How do you think it should work?
No, I think it should work that way, but realistically, who actually feels free to walk away from a cop who is questioning them?
I mean, I’ve worked on plenty of cases where people felt free to walk away from police officers even when they weren’t actually allowed to.
Heh 🙂
Firstly, injury in fact is an element of Article III standing, not of the First Amendment. And we are in the area of constitutional law, not tort law. Secondly, many things that a private citizen could lawfully do would violate the constitution if done by an agent of the government. That is central to the purpose of many constitutional provisions, including the First Amendment. If the government can harass people expressing views it doesn't like into silence, then the Free Speech Clause becomes meaningless.
"But here I think the express call for reporting speech simply because of the viewpoint it expresses, not as part of an investigation of a possible crime or of an intention to commit a crime, strikes me as unsound and dangerous. Again, it's not itself unconstitutional, but it's also not something that I think our government ought to be doing."
----
Ya think? It shows just how far left Democrats have moved that this would be even considered acceptable. No wonder the party is losing voters.
Of course a law professor could come up with hypothetical situations in which an offensive-remark hotline *doesn't* threaten the First Amendmnent.
But I doubt such hypotheticals have much to do with actual snitching-on-speech policies existing in the real world.
In other words, we can safely proceed directly to the conclusion that this is a threat to the First Amendment.
"In other words, we can safely proceed directly to the conclusion that this is a threat to the First Amendment."
The Supreme Court disagrees. In Laird v. Tatum, 408 U.S. 1 (1972), the plaintiffs sought declaratory and injunctive relief on their claim that their rights were being invaded by the Department of the Army's alleged "surveillance of lawful and peaceful civilian political activity." The petitioners in response described the activity as "gathering by lawful means . . . [and] maintaining and using in their intelligence activities . . . information relating to potential or actual civil disturbances [or] street demonstrations." Id., at 2. The plaintiffs complained that this surveillance created a chilling effect on their exercise of First Amendment rights.
Both the Court of Appeals and SCOTUS identified the issue as:
Id., at 10. The Supreme Court opined that the plaintiffs had not shown that they sustained or were immediately in danger of sustaining a direct injury as the result of the surveillance activities that they complained of:
408 U.S. at 13-14 (footnote omitted).
Wasn't that a standing case? For better or worse, the Supreme Court doesn't allow standing to challenge every constitutional violation.
Yes, that was a standing case, but the lack of standing was intertwined with the merits. The plaintiffs lacked standing because they had failed to plead and prove facts which would amount to any First Amendment violation.
You can conclude that it's a "threat" to the 1A if you want, but not that it violates the 1A.
And a hotline for reporting socialist propaganda, or anti-Christian rhetoric, doesn't violate the 1A either. I mean, what if such a hotline had a legitimate purpose?
This hotline would cover hateful speech towards Christians because crimes motivated by a bias against Christians would be a hate crime (and the speech could be evidence of the bias).
Wait, are you actually defending my hypothetical hotline, or are you describing some existing hate-*crime* hotline?
"This hotline" means the one we are discussing.
What about a hotline informing the government about socialist propaganda? No First Amendment issues?
Clearly you feel like there’s an issue. Why don’t you tell us what it is?
The issue with government hotlines where citizens can inform on other citizens' First Amendment activities?
You can't see the First Amendment problems?
SMH
Can you articulate what you perceive to be the First Amendment problem? Whose freedom of speech is being abridged, and in what manner?
The First Amendment problem is that the government has hotlines where you can report a fellow citizen's speech.
If you want to know why that's a problem, try to imagine yourself being the subject of a call to a special government bad-speech hotline by someone who doesn't like something you said.
If you wouldn't mind such a scenario, or if this sort of government monitoring is a price you're willing to pay for the privilege of the government keeping tabs on your ideological foes, then "[m]ay your chains set lightly upon you." Be polite and deferential to the nice policeman who comes to talk to you about his concerns over your protected speech.
IOW, you can't articulate what the First Amendment issue is, so you resort to begging the question.
You can't perform the imaginative effort of envisioning having the police called on you for your protected speech?
If you don't think it's wrong to have an armed agent of the state visit you to discuss concerns about your First Amendment-protected behavior, then why don't *you* explain why it's no big deal?
"If you don't think it's wrong to have an armed agent of the state visit you to discuss concerns about your First Amendment-protected behavior, then why don't *you* explain why it's no big deal?"
I am not the one positing a constitutional violation. Accordingly, the burden to prove a negative is not on me.
That having been said, a police officer without a warrant has every right to knock on my door and request that I answer questions on any topic, including my political speech. I have a corresponding right to refuse to answer such questions and to refuse him admittance to my home. Kentucky v. King, 563 U.S. 452, 469-470 (2011). Of course, prudence suggests that I do so in a polite and respectful manner.
Now please answer my question and articulate what you perceive to be the First Amendment problem? Whose freedom of speech is being abridged, and in what manner?
"a police officer without a warrant has every right to knock on my door and request that I answer questions on any topic, including my political speech"
I would like to see you provide some authority for this assertion about the scope (or lack thereof) of the First Amendment.
(I checked Kentucky v. King, and it involved a police drug investigation, not protected First Amendment speech.)
I've already "articulate[d]" that armed agents of the state asking about protected speech is a First Amendment problem.
"I've already 'articulate[d]' that armed agents of the state asking about protected speech is a First Amendment problem."
No, you have not. Begging the question doesn't feed the bulldog. One more time, whose freedom of speech is being abridged, and in what manner?
Where is the adverse action by any governmental actor in your hypothetical? No one is compelled to answer questions, and no penalty or consequence attaches to any refusal to answer. Where then is the injury in fact?
It's pretty ballsy to ignore my question and then press for me to answer your own question.
I'll start out by pointing out that you have no authority to demand that I answer any questions. Nor can you add extra questions to the earlier ones and pretend I haven't answered the new questions.
Also, in case you were somehow confused when I said it would be a First Amendment violation for the government to send an armed agent to ask someone about their protected speech, I'd say that the person whose rights this would violate would be...the person whose speech was thus attacked. I'm happy to clear that up for the benefit of those whose lack of intelligence prevented them from realizing this before.
And it violates the First Amendment because...this is America, not Russia, you twit.
And at the risk of taxing your intellect beyond your ability to handle it, there is such a thing as a chilling effect.
I see you don't actually have a citation in defense of your absurd claim that an officer of the state has the right to knock on your door and ask you about your political speech. And I doubt that you'll provide such a citation, because there is no such right on the state's part.
“First Amendment activities” can be non-First Amendment activities (SCOTUS has ruled that protected speech can be used as evidence of punishable motives).
If I say, Cal is a stupid Christian fundamentalist, that is protected. But if I say that while kicking Cal in his cowardly rump, that can be used as evidence I kicked him because of his religion and that can be the basis of enhancing my sentence for the kicking.
What makes me cowardly in comparison to you?
My unwillingness to have armed agents of the state knocking on my door and asking about my protected First Amendment activities?
I observe that you haven't gone as far as ng, denying that having the cops call on your just for your protected expression, doesn't pose First Amendment problems.
Thus, you haven't actually disagreed with me, at least not openly, you simply take this opportunity to vent your irrational hatreds.
I apologize for the double negative, I should have said ng denies that the police behavior I describe *does* have First Amendment problems.
As far as ng's comment
"I am not the one positing a constitutional violation. Accordingly, the burden to prove a negative is not on me."
- he's the one who specifically said the cops can knock on someone's door and ask them about their political speech. The "authority" he cited for this proposition was a case about a police drug investigation, not a case where the police asked about politics.
Having made such a remarkable, and unsupported, claim, it's his burden to prove it.
It's in Russia that the opponents of government harassment have the burden of showing such behavior to be illegal. In America, the government's lickspittle supporters have the burden of showing why such behavior is OK.
"the cops can knock on someone's door and ask them about their political speech"
I mean, they can, but it stinks. Flip the script: it's 1955 in Mississippi and deputies are innocently knocking on doors and asking whether the reports that you made a comment supporting voting rights for blacks are true. If you can't see a problem there you have a screw loose.
Margrave, you are the one positing that "it would be a First Amendment violation for the government to send an armed agent to ask someone about their protected speech," Your claim; your burden of proof. You have provided nothing but ipse dixit assertions and question begging.
As for the so-called "chilling effect," I have pointed out downthread that SCOTUS in Laird v. Tatum, 408 U.S. 1 (1972), explicitly rejected a claim that the plaintiffs' First Amendment rights were being invaded by the Department of the Army's alleged "surveillance of lawful and peaceful civilian political activity," notwithstanding the "chilling effect" that the plaintiffs there claimed.
I also wrote downthread:
Your assertion that I haven't provided a citation in support of my position is accordingly a flat out lie. All of your blather hasn't spooked the pixels off of the monitor.
No, you lying dipstick, I didn't deny your attempt to cite an "authority," I mocked your citation by showing that it didn't involve the First Amendment.
You continue to invoke a case about a drug investigation in order to support a claim that the cops can knock on a citizen's door and ask about his politics. You are misleading your readers.
The Laird v. Tatum decision isn't relevant either, since there wasn't any claim that armed government agents were going to people's doors to ask about their antiwar activity.
Do you in fact have a citation to show that cops have the right to knock on people's doors and ask about First Amendment-protected activity? Of course not, or else you would have provided such a citation by now.
You got nothing.
And by your own admission, the issue in the Laird v. Tatum case was "the mere existence, *without more,* [emphasis added] of a governmental investigative and data-gathering activity that is alleged to be broader in scope than is reasonably necessary for the accomplishment of a valid governmental purpose."
Without more - that is, without cops or soldiers knocking on people's doors to ask about their protected expression, you deceitful schmuck.
The Margrave, Malika, Absaroka, I, or any other citizen has the right to knock on a neighbor's door and talk about religion, football, politics or any other subject that the neighbor is willing to talk about. The neighbor has a corresponding right to refuse to talk and even to decline to answer the door.
The knock and talk discussion in Kentucky v. King makes it clear that a police officer has the same prerogative as any private citizen:
Intelligence gathering from a wide variety of sources is a vital part of police work. There is no First Amendment exception to the knock and talk doctrine -- any subject matter is fair game. An occupant of residential premises who stands in his doorway and voluntarily answers an officer's questions has not sustained any injury redressable under the First Amendment nor the Fourth Amendment. The government there has simply caused no harm to that resident and thus has deprived him of no protected right.
The government of course may not retaliate against or withhold or deny a benefit to a citizen because of his having exercised First Amendment rights. See, Perry v. Sindermann, 408 U.S. 593, 597 (1972); Board of County Comm'rs, Wabaunsee County. v. Umbehr, 518 U.S. 668, 674-675 (1996). That, however, is not this case.
To state a First Amendment retaliation claim, the commonly accepted formulation requires that a plaintiff must establish first, that his speech or act was constitutionally protected; second, that the defendant's retaliatory conduct adversely affected the protected speech; and third, that there is a causal connection between the retaliatory actions and the adverse effect on speech. Bennett v. Hendrix, 423 F.3d 1247, 1250 (11th Cir. 2005), cert. denied 549 U.S. 809 (2006); Constantine v. Rectors and Visitors of George Mason Univ., 411 F.3d 474, 499 (4th Cir. 2005); Keenan v. Tejada, 290 F.3d 252, 258 (5th Cir. 2002).
A plaintiff suffers adverse action if the defendant's allegedly retaliatory conduct would likely deter a person of ordinary firmness from the exercise of First Amendment rights. Bennett v. Hendrix, 423 F.3d at 1254. The test is an objective one, and the analysis is necessarily fact specific, but a knock on the door which may lawfully be disregarded and posing questions which a resident is free to answer or not as he pleases hardly qualifies as an adverse action.
Are you quoting from Kentucky v. King, or from some decision which you hadn't previously mentioned?
Or are you giving your own *interpretation* of some decisions which you hadn't previously mentioned?
In the actual world in which we live, people are less likely to express their full political views if they know that doing so will bring a visit from the police.
The only way the government could defend such behavior is if there's some important *non*-political reason for the investigation. So, for example, if a Senator is found dead in his office with the words "Medicare for All - down with capitalism" scrawled in blood on the wall, then it might be OK for the cops to ask the Senator's aides and colleagues about his political views and whether he ever got threatened by socialists over health care.
But the idea that there is no problem at all for the government simply deciding to visit people and ask about their politics - this I rebut on the basis of the following authority:
"The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments … They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature by the hand of Divinity itself." /Alexander Hamilton
https://www.sheilaomalley.com/?p=2424
I don't know if an actor dressed as Hamilton belted out a show tune based on these words - if so you may have heard the quote.
If the only thing you will accept is a court case that says, "It is not a violation of the 1A for police to knock on your door and ask you about your speech," then you may be able to declare yourself the winner of this discussion in your own mind. There may not be a case that uses those exact words. But that's not how it works.
And frankly, your notion is nonsensical. I agree that it would be highly disturbing if police came and asked me about my speech. But that doesn't mean it violates the constitution. Unlike the president's speech to his subordinates, which is such holy writ that a court can't even hear about it (thanks, bootlickers on the Supreme Court!), your speech is not immune from investigation. It could be part of a crime (crime facilitating speech); it could be evidence of a crime. It could be evidence of intent to commit a crime. Police are allowed to talk to you to find out.
"Are you quoting from Kentucky v. King, or from some decision which you hadn't previously mentioned?"
The indented blockquote is from King. In addition I have cited numerous other Supreme Court and U. S. Court of Appeals decisions in the context of allegations of First Amendment retaliation. Read these decisions for yourself -- I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
The relevance of King is twofold: (1) either a private citizen or a law enforcement officer is free to knock on another person's door, and (2) the occupant of the premises is equally free to tell his visitor to go pound sand. The interplay of the Fourth Amendment "knock and talk" issue with First Amendment doctrine is that that knock on the door -- which the occupant is absolutely at liberty to ignore -- is not an adverse action for First Amendment purposes.
David Nieporent,
I've acknowledged that there are *some* cases where the cops can ask someone about their politics, which is hardly the same as saying it's *always* OK, so long as they're "just asking questions, man," which is what ng's musings amount to.
Ng claimed to have a slam-dunk precedent in favor of political investigations by cops, which I showed was actually a precedent in favor of cops asking about *drugs,* not politics. Any attempt to take the Court's words and apply them to the First Amendment would turn those words into dicta, which can be ignored by lower courts and (still more) by later Supreme Courts.
I'm not one of those who say the courts are always right - if ng belatedly finds *relevant* court decisions with a blase attitude toward political policing, that just means those courts are ivory-tower types with their heads in the clouds, or else lodged in some other portion of the judicial anatomy.
As for ng,
That King case you cited, without taking note of its context, has fuck all to do with the First Amendment, even in the context of the interplay of the First and Fourth amendments. It's a fourth amendment decision where the cops were *not* acting as political police, but were investigating drugs. I can bring you to the waters of understanding, but I cannot make you drinketh from them.
I don’t like these hotlines, nor do I like the idea of the police knocking on people’s doors to ask them for a consensual interview about their protected speech. And I guess the beliefs I have that makes me not like them are, in some sense, the same beliefs that make me like the first amendment. So if that’s all you mean by “first amendment problem”, that’s fine (if not especially interesting). If, on the other hand, you think it’s an actual violation of the first amendment—which, based on your subsequent comments, appears to be the case—then I’m not really seeing it, and would appreciate an explanation.
The prospect of a police visit to talk about his political views would "chill" a regular person who is tempted to speak out on political questions.
An informed citizen would know that a government which focuses its hostile intentions on you may treat you worse than it treats people it likes. Any chilling of speech would be a reasonable reaction.
And any government which has a habit of sending cops on political missions would know about these chilling effects.
So, the government would be deliberately chilling protected speech.
Any First Amendment problems?
Margrave[1], I think I'm in Noscitur's camp here. Suppose I'm in the habit of posting stuff like 'the only good politician is a dead politician' or 'Trump/Obama will never live to see the end of their term' or whatever. To my amateur understanding, those are skating outside of the true threats exception and so are 1A protected speech. Is it your opinion that it's always wrong for the Secret Service to drop by for a chat if I spend a lot of time skating right by the edge?
I don't like these hotlines. I agree visits from the police have a chilling effect. But I don't think a hard rule that it *always* violates the law for the police to chat without existing evidence of a crime can work. I'm all for a department policy saying, for example, an officer better have a pretty good reason for such a talk.
Sort of related: my inlaws had a crazy neighbor. As in, she thought their Purple Martin birdhouse was a landing beacon for space aliens. They ignored her for 20 some years. One day she said something (I can't remember what) that made them go down to the local (small town) police. When they explained their mission, the desk sergeant burst out laughing, stood up and shook their hands. "I'm so glad to meet you at last! Your neighbor has come in here once a week to complain about you - aliens, ritual sacrifice, ax murders, you name it!". The police had used their judgement to decide this lady's complaints, ahem, didn't require further investigation. At a guess, she started with the alien thing, and that led to the police discounting the ax murders. I think it's entirely reasonable to expect the police to exercise good judgement - and, for example, interviewing everyone with a Kamala sign would be an example of bad judgement. But I think they need some degree of discretion.
[1]I think that's the correct etiquette; a Margrave doesn't have a separate method of address like 'Your Eminence' or whatever, but please correct me if I got that wrong.
"But I don't think a hard rule that it *always* violates the law for the police to chat without existing evidence of a crime can work. I'm all for a department policy saying, for example, an officer better have a pretty good reason for such a talk."
I'm arguing against ng's position - that a harmless little police chat *never* violates the law because it's just a talk and a private citizen could do it too, etc. Leaving an open field for the government to conduct these totally-harmless visits as often as desired, without any pretense of a legitimate pretense, because the citizen can always say no, right? That's what I reject.
I've accepted that there are *some* cases where the police can ask people questions based on their politics, but I think it needs to be tied to some bona fide law enforcement objective unrelated to censorship. That's all I'm contending for.
To go back to my earlier example, the Senator found dead with "Medicare for All, Down With Capitalism" written on the wall in his blood. That would be a legitimate occasion to ask some militant socialists known to have been in the area to account for their whereabouts at the time of the killing. I'm sure there are other examples.
But ng's formulation means the government *never* has to account for its "just a visit" harassment, or give any kind of good reason for it.
And to go back to the original context of this thread, of course if the reason the cops are asking you about your protected First Amendment expression is because someone called an offensive speech hotline, I don't see how that can be constitutional. There's no shadow of a legitimate reason there.
PS - My namesake was a Scottish guy who wanted to become a Margrave in colonial Georgia, and was offered the chance to achieve his dream if he could recruit a certain number of settlers, which he never came close to doing. If he'd done it, he'd have been the Margrave of Azilia.
https://www.cathyfussellquilts.com/new-blog/2019/11/17/the-margravate-of-azilia-part-one
"But ng's formulation means the government *never* has to account for its 'just a visit' harassment, or give any kind of good reason for it."
That is not at all what I have said. The fact that you mischaracterize my position to set up a straw man speaks ill of your intellectual honesty.
My position is merely that a "knock and talk" visit by a law enforcement officer -- which the resident is completely free to ignore or terminate at will -- does not give rise to an actionable First Amendment lawsuit. There is no adverse action there, and hence no injury in fact.
Bennett v. Hendrix, 423 F.3d 1247, 1250-1254 (11th Cir. 2005), cert. denied 549 U.S. 809 (2006), includes a comprehensive discussion of the legal standard for demonstrating an adverse effect on protected speech, including thorough treatment of that issue by other circuits of the Court of Appeals. "Specifically, private citizens must establish that the retaliatory acts would deter a person of ordinary firmness from exercising his or her First Amendment rights." Id. at 1252. "[F]or private citizen plaintiffs, the objective test allows for a 'weeding out' function when the injuries complained of are trivial or amount to no more than de minimis inconvenience in the exercise of First Amendment rights." Id. at 1253.
Stamping one's feet and proclaiming "But I don't like it!!" is insufficient. If you don't like the plaintiff in a civil suit having the burden of persuasion, then tough noogie.
"If you don't like the plaintiff in a civil suit having the burden of persuasion, then tough noogie."
That's an absolute lie. You know quite well I never said anything of the sort.
Shame on you.
As for your own position, you can't lyingly run away from it, though I certainly understand your desire to do so.
You took a case where the cops asked about drugs and lyingly tried to twist it into a case which allowed cops to ask about politics. Take your lies and shove them up your ass.
I am neither lying about nor running away from anything.
The resident's absolute right to ignore the knock on the door and/or to refuse to answer questions is critical to the Fourth Amendment reasonableness analysis of knock and talk in Kentucky v. King. It is similarly important to analyze whether police conduct in the selfsame situation works an abridgement of First Amendment rights.
No adverse action by any governmental actor equals no First Amendment abridgement. As with any other civil suit, the burden of pleading and proving a constitutional deprivation rests upon the proponent of the claim that his rights have been denied or abridged.
And FWIW, the cops in King, even though they would have had the right to do so if the defendants had answered the door, didn't ask about anything before entering the apartment. They announced themselves and then, having received no answer, kicked in the door when noises from within led the officers to believe that drug-related evidence was about to be destroyed. 563 U.S. at 456-457. Did you even read the opinion, Margrave?
Your kvetching reminds me of what Governor Al Smith said: no matter how thin you slice it, it's still baloney.
You're doubling down on your lies and running away from your own position.
I never said anything about denying the standard burden of proof in civil cases.
I correctly characterized your position which you're running away from.
And you used a case about a drug investigation to suggest that the cops can ask about politics, which is bulllshit.
You are way overreading the concept of chilling effect. Does the president or other politicians vehemently denouncing communism, or white supremacy, or Hamas, possibly intimidate people who would like to speak out in favor of one of those things? It might! But that doesn't make it unconstitutional. You have to find an act that is itself violative of a right first. And the whole point of the King citation is that police knocking on your door and asking you questions is not such a violation.
To sum up: Under the First Amendment, the mayor *can't* send the cops to people's doors to day "God Bless You."
But the mayor *can* send the cops to people's doors to say "I hear you've been criticizing the fact that the mayor's son got a city contract."
"It offers a good deal of fairly concrete detail, always helpful in such analyses."
It's interesting EV offers this as a well detailed and important report. I took a look at the article (as one always should with an outlet like the Free Beacon) instead of relying on EV's excerpt and description to launch my SpaceX Outrage of the day.
The article begins by saying: "In January 2020, the top law enforcement agency in the state of Oregon launched a "Bias Response Hotline" for residents to report "offensive ‘jokes.’"
But if you click through on the first link to "the hotline" in the subsequent paragraph it leads to a website titled "Bias and Hate
Oregon is Leading the Fight Against Hate with the You Belong. Campaign."
If you do a Control + F on that page you do get something on "offensive 'jokes,'" but there seems to be a lil' context left out...Here is the larger section:
"Have you experienced or witnessed a hate crime or a bias incident?
A hate crime is a crime motivated in part or whole by bias against another person’s actual or perceived protected class–their race, color, disability, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, or gender identity. Examples include racist graffiti, stealing Pride flags, threats using slur words, assaulting someone based on their identity.
A bias incident is a non-criminal hostile expression motivated in part or whole by another person’s actual or perceived protected class, again meaning their race, color, disability, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, or gender identity. Examples include hate speech; using a racial, ethnic, or other slurs; displaying hateful symbols or flags; creating racist images/drawings; mocking someone with a disability; or telling or sharing offensive “jokes” about someone’s identity.
Click here for more information about the difference between a hate/bias crime and a bias incident."
So, the "Bias Hotline" (which seems to be a Bias and Hate one), doesn't seem to have been "launched for residents to report offensive 'jokes,'" at least not alone (why were the many other things it asks to be reported left out of the Beacon's description?).
What's more, they have a clear link in the very section cited intended not only to help differentiate between hate crimes (which SCOTUS, as EV knows well, has said are compatible with the First Amendment) and bias incidents, but also to explain why the latter are important to know about in regard to the former..
If you click that link, they actually have a graphic noting that bias incidents are not criminal but bias + a crime is so (in other words, evidence of bias plus a criminal act=a hate crime [Oregon calls their hate crimes bias crimes]).
So, this hotline seems more like a hotline to inform authorities about tips, including speech, linked to terroristic Islamic (or domestic) "radicalization". Or, to help many modern conservatives track it, a University hotline for tips of people engaged in anti-Semitic speech to assist the University in combating anti-Semitic discrimination or hate crimes by campus members.
It's pretty impressive how you spent your whole Saturday bootlicking this gross State action.
Do you have some sort of mental disorder? Like being a Democrat?
Did you notice the references to OTHER STATES?!?
Sure, it draws a clear line between hate crimes and bias incidents, and is explicit that the latter aren't crimes. But it is still asking people to rat you out for both!
Including, yes, 'offensive jokes'.
What do we have here? The Washington Free Beacon is a hard right media outlet. You may remember them for having commissioned the Steele Dossier when their owner, Paul Singer, was an anti-Trump Republican. You may remember Paul Singer for giving ... favors to Justice Alito, and now being a big Trump donor. They found a small program in a blue state, looked hard for something bad, failed to find anything, but implied that something bad could happen. Volokh picked it up and pushed even harder that something bad COULD happen. Then we get a hundred comments, all but a few decrying that something bad maybe could happen.
I saw a good rule recently. A story that tells you what happened is journalism. A story that tells you how to feel about it is propaganda.
"A story that tells you what happened" doesn't have to editorialize in order to convey a propagandistic message. The subject chosen, and the selection and prominence of the facts to be treated as relevant. can convey what the reader is "supposed" to conclude.
A blue state?!?
Try THREE DIFFERENT TIME ZONES....
And I read the British paper The Guardian, even though I know it's left wing. Facts aren't changed by politics.
Very good rule that...
So...journalism?
" You may remember them for having commissioned the Steele Dossier when their owner, Paul Singer, was an anti-Trump Republican."
You might remember that if you're delusional, anyway, or at least totally gullible about DNC talking points.
Clinton campaign, DNC paid for research that led to Russia dossier
By Adam Entous, Devlin Barrett and Rosalind S. Helderman
The Hillary Clinton campaign and the Democratic National Committee helped fund research that resulted in a now-famous dossier containing allegations about President Trump’s connections to Russia and possible coordination between his campaign and the Kremlin, people familiar with the matter said.
Marc E. Elias, a lawyer representing the Clinton campaign and the DNC, retained Fusion GPS, a Washington firm, to conduct the research."
FACT CHECK: Did Republicans Pay For The Trump Dossier?
"Verdict: False
D.C.-based opposition research firm Fusion GPS hired Christopher Steele, a former British intelligence officer with expertise in Russia, to put together the dossier after Republicans quit paying the firm to compile opposition research on Trump. Steele was hired after a lawyer representing the Democratic National Committee and Hillary Clinton’s 2016 presidential campaign hired the firm to dig up dirt on Trump."
Snopes agrees, too: It was the DNC and the Clinton campaign.
I noted all the 'we record these for our annual hate crime report' statements. That calls into question how seriously those reports ought to be taken.
A generation of youth has been schooled in using the authorities, university or government, as as their personal weapon. The end game is East German Stasi style universal snitching. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/03/lessons-from-the-stasi/
The future is not pretty. So long as snitches get stitches, or worse, we can maintain a balance. Teach your children to settle scores without involving the 'authorities', lest the Stasi win.
This kind of policing-by-collecting rumors should be found categorically unconstitutional because it opens the way for all kinds of abuses which are secret and therefore can't be protected against otherwise. It's like the Stasi. Or China's secret police.
For the same reason, if any private actor starts enforcing its own "social credit scores," those too need to be nipped in the bud. If this takes constitutional change, bring it.