The Volokh Conspiracy
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Can The President Unilaterally Declare An Invasion?
Or can only Congress declare an invasion, like Congress has the sole power to declare war?
In my post on the invasion executive order, I wrote "I think it pretty clear that the President can declare an invasion." A reader opined that because Congress has the power to declare war, the President cannot unilaterally declare an invasion. Relatedly, a reporter asked me if a President has ever before declared an invasion.
I think the general consensus view is that for the President to use military power abroad as part of a war, Congress must declare war. (There is some debate about whether a declaration is needed for something less than a war, such as "hostilities," but I'll table that issue for now.) I also think the general consensus view is that the President does not need a declaration of war to repel an invasion. That is, if the United States is under attack, the President can act to secure the homeland before seeking authorization from Congress. And if the President can repel an invasion, then he necessarily has the power to declare when such an invasion is occurring.
Thankfully, the United States has suffered very few invasions. Our conflicts generally have been fought abroad. A few of the more prominent invasions would be the War of 1812 and Pearl Harbor. In both conflicts, Congress issued declarations of war against Great Britain and Japan, respectively. On short notice, I could not find anything from President Madison that is relevant for the War of 1812. But I find relevant President Franklin D. Roosevelt's "Day of Infamy" speech, delivered on December 8, 1841. This speech asked that Congress declare war between the United States and Japan. Yet, FDR had already determined that Japan invaded the United States. He spoke to the invasion directly:
"No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory."
I do not know if Roosevelt was able to dispatch any orders to Pearl Harbor during the attacks. But let's assume that communications were different. Does anyone doubt that Roosevelt could have ordered troops at Pearl Harbor to fight back against the invading Japanese Kamikazes? I think the answer is yes, because the President has the Article II authority to repel an invasion. What is the alternative? Would FDR have to convene Congress and wait for a declaration to stop an impending attack?
If that analysis is right, where would that declaration of invasion leave Hawaii? (Assume for a moment that Hawaii was a state in 1941). Article I, Section 10, Clause 3 provides that a state can "engage in War" when "actually invaded." If President Roosevelt declared that Hawaii was being invaded, the Executive of Hawaii could have "engaged in War" against the incoming attack. I do not know that Hawaii even had the apparatus of war, but that is a separate question.
In 1942, several Nazi saboteurs landed on the beach in Long Island. I would think that these were invading forces. By this point, war had already been declared against Germany, so a declaration of invasion would not have been necessary. For whatever it is worth, the Supreme Court in Ex Parte Quirin (1942) referred to such forces a "enemy invaders."
Also relevant is an incident from Texas in 1874. Judge Ho described it in his United States v. Abbott concurrence:
These issues came to a head in 1874. The United States Attorney General informed Texas Governor Richard Coke that his military orders violated a federal statute prohibiting unauthorized hostile actions in other countries. Id. at 164 (citing Act of April 20, 1818, § 6, 3 Stat. 449). Governor Coke responded by invoking his constitutional authority under Article I, section 10. See id. at 164–67 (text of letter available in the Appendix). In doing so, he acknowledged that federal authorities had the "power" to obstruct his actions if they wanted to. Id. at 167. After all, the United States possesses superior military forces, as well as the authority to call state militias into federal service (U.S. Const. art. I, § 8, cl. 15–16; id. art. II, § 2, cl. 1). But he explained his "clear conviction[]" that, notwithstanding federal law, States have the same "right" to self-defense that would "ordinarily reside in the United States." Id. at 166–67. In response, the Attorney General acquiesced to the Governor's claim of authority. Id. at xvi.
Here, the executive branch acquiesced to the declaration of an invasion by Texas.
There are three other relevant references to invasion in the Constitution.
First, Congress has the power "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions." But the President, as Commander in Chief of the Militia, has the power to decide when to call forth the Militia to accomplish those ends. I would think that the President can decide when there is an insurrection or invasion at hand, in order to call forth the Militia. This argument is supported by the Militia Act of 1795.
It provides, in part:
That whenever the United States shall be invaded, or be in imminent danger of invasion from any foreign nation or Indian tribe, it shall be lawful for the President of the United States to call forth such number of the militia of the state, or states, most convenient to the place of danger, or scene of action, as he may judge necessary to repel such invasion, and to issue his orders for that purpose, to such officer or officers of the militia, as he shall think proper. Act of February 28th, 1795 (1 Stat. at Large, 424).
In Martin v. Mott (1827), Justice Story described this provision:
If we look at the language of the act of 1795, every conclusion drawn from the nature of the power itself, is strongly fortified. The words are, 'whenever the United States shall be invaded, or be in imminent danger of invasion, &c. it shall be lawful for the President, &c. to call forth such number of the militia, &c. as he may judge necessary to repel such invasion.' The power itself is confided to the Executive of the Union, to him who is, by the constitution, 'the commander in chief of the militia, when called into the actual service of the United States,' whose duty it is to 'take care that the laws be faithfully executed,' and whose responsibility for an honest discharge of his official obligations is secured by the highest sanctions. He is necessarily constituted the judge of the existence of the exigency in the first instance, and is bound to act according to his belief of the facts.
It would seem here that Congress has authorized the President to determine when an invasion occurs. And when he make such a declaration, Congress has authorized the President to call forth the militia. But the President does not need to seek a declaration from Congress before that power can be exercised. The President decides what is an invasion, and that decision is entitled to vast deference.
Second, Congress can suspend the Privilege of the Wit of Habeas Corpus "when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it." Under Ex Parte Merryman, Congress has the sole power to suspend the writ of habeas corpus. At least with regard to suspending habeas corpus, it would seem Congress has the power of making such a determination. It would not be prudent for Congress to wait for the President to declare an invasion, especially since the President may be the person who is imprisoning people without any process.
Third, "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion." This text does not specify the branch of the federal government that makes such a "guarantee." The "United States" usually refers to Congress assembled, rather than the executive branch. But in Luther v. Borden (1849), Chief Justice Taney wrote that whether a state has changed its government " is a question to be settled by the political power." And Taney says this power belongs to the President:
By this act, the power of deciding whether the exigency had arisen upon which the government of the United States is bound to interfere, is given to the President. He is to act upon the application of the legislature or of the executive, and consequently he must determine what body of men constitute the legislature, and who is the governor, before he can act. The fact that both parties claim the right to the government cannot alter the case, for both cannot be entitled to it. If there is an armed conflict, like the one of which we are speaking, it is a case of domestic violence, and one of the parties must be in insurrection against the lawful government. And the President must, of necessity, decide which is the government, and which party is unlawfully arrayed against it, before he can perform the duty imposed upon him by the act of Congress. . . . It is said that this power in the President is dangerous to liberty, and may be abused. All power may be abused if placed in unworthy hands. But it would be difficult, we think, to point out any other hands in which this power would be more safe, and at the same time equally effectual.
Luther concerned an insurrection, rather than an invasion. But Taney said there was no difference between the two, at least with regard to the Militia Act:
A question very similar to this arose in the case of Martin v. Mott, 12 Wheat. 29–31. The first clause of the first section of the act of February 28, 1795, of which we have been speaking, authorizes the President to call out the militia to repel invasion. It is the second clause in the same section which authorizes the call to suppress an insurrection against a State government. The power given to the President in each case is the same,—with this difference only, that it cannot be exercised by him in the latter case, except upon the application of the legislature or executive of the State.
Where does this history leave us?
The Constitution expressly grants Congress the power to declare war, but does not indicate which branch of government can declare an invasion. The general understanding is that Article II grants the President the power to repel an invasion, and presumably, the President can determine when such an invasion is occurring. The Militia Act of 1795 supports the presumption. The Constitution allows Congress, and not the executive, to suspend habeas corpus during an invasion, which would require Congress to determine when there is an invasion.
Is the power to declare an invasion, like the power to declare war, reserved solely to Congress? Or is the Constitution silent on this issue, and might permit both Congress and the President to make this determination? My initial inclination was the latter, and having thought this issue through, I think this is the better answer. But there is so little law here, and so few invasions, there is not much to go on. My thoughts here are tentative, and I welcome comments and corrections.
I heard a report that members of Congress may vote to declare an invasion, so this issue may become moot.
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What the hell is Josh talking about? Nowhere in the constitution does it say anyone can "declare" an invasion. It mentions "declaring war" and "repelling invasion" - not declaring invasion. Sometimes I think Josh Blackman comes up with these ideas while he's bored and high out of his mind from smoking pot.
cannpro : "Sometimes I think Josh Blackman comes up with these ideas while he's bored and high out of his mind from smoking pot"
A generous interpretation. In fact, Professor Blackman comes up with these ideas because he's a man desperate and on the make. The real question is what does his prostitutional zeal buy? With Trump, you can never be sure. Sometimes he showers largess on those people who tongue-polish his shoe leather. Other times he takes sadistic pleasure in treating abject lickspittles with open contempt. Blackman has to know that. He must think the chance worth the odds. (And - of course - the total abrogation of all personal self-respect and dignity. But Blackman doesn't seem to mind that much)
Me-Yow!!, and have you seen his Hair!!!!???? Don't hate him for (not) being beautiful.
You are both ignoring, or maybe ignorant of, the president’s inherent constitutional power over the border. Why do you think pipelines crossing the border need a presidential permit? The president’s authority to issue such permission does not stem from a statute.
Maybe you should get off your hobby horse and actually respond to what Josh wrote. His thesis is that since the President is authorized to respond to invasion, that he must be able to say an invasion has taken place, that this determination is not delegated or defined in the Constitution, and because someone has to make that decision, it can only be the President.
You Josh haters throw so many insults at him instead of actually responding to what he wrote that it makes you appear to have zero case and that leaves Josh in command of the actual factual and logical high ground.
You all have had plenty of opportunities to dispute what he writes, and you throw them away in favor of insults.
You have no case.
Just because you can't see how stupid Josh is being doesn't mean he's not being stupid. Do you think the President can declare that due process has occurred, or that a particular punishment isn't cruel, or that a law is unconstitutional? I mean he can try, but ultimately the interpretation falls to the courts. In other words, if something simply isn't an invasion, the President can't declare it to be one.
If there really is an invasion, then the President gets to decide whether and how to respond (along with Governors and Congress). But he has no power to respond to imaginary invasions.
If I understand Professor Blackman, he concluded that both POTUS and Congress have the power. That would make sense.
The question is, are 10MM illegal aliens crossing the border in 4 years an invasion?
We're a federal government of limited, enumerated powers.
This one doesn't appear in the Constitution.
10M is border encounters. Not illegal aliens crossing the border.
This is rich, a progressive making a case for ...a federal government of limited, enumerated powers, I am smiling at my cup of coffee, Sarcastr0.
May I quote you on that gem, from time to time? I promise not to do that too often. I pinkie swear, lol.
More to the point, I have not seen a good articulation of a legal rationale that says these 2MM? 7MM? 10MM? 17MM? 20MM? (who really knows the precise number, but it is several million and there is no doubt about that) illegal aliens are an invasion. I am open to hearing the legal rationale; heck, I want to understand the legal rationale advanced by POTUS Trump's team declaring an invasion. Maybe Stephen Miller (or his designate) can elaborate.
My personal assessment, FWIW: Not an invasion (like MX invading the US again), this was presidential maladministration by Biden, who
encouragedallowed millions and millions of illegal aliens to enter the country on his watch. Mayorkas was impeached over it. Maladministration makes more logical sense to me.'Republic of limited powers' not some conservative shibboleth, Commenter.
You do seem to like making up numbers to get angry at.
But this here is a discussion of Blackman's thesis, which is extraconstitutional. And which you didn't address at all.
Da Nang Douche attempts to control the narrative.
In case anyone is wondering about why Da Nang Douche:
Sarcastr0 18 hours ago
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Inside the Pentagon, that goes a long way toward qualification; namely, killing the enemy.
Saying this doesn't make it true. I did a bit of time over there, and respect is not accorded for stuff like bronze stars.
I think those predicting his failure and doom are overdetermining things - the military is a weird place.
But so are you, in the other direction.
Mr. Bumble 14 hours ago
Danang Douche?
A bit of time where and in what capacity. Where you a Jag-off or just a tourist?
Sarcastr0 13 hours ago
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Why would I share that with any of you who like to speculate about what I do and for what agency?
There is nothing 'extraconstitutional' about Professor Blackman's thesis, which appears to be: both branches have some kind of role to play in declaring an invasion and responding to it. Seems logical on it's face.
Maybe you see something else.
Check the title of the OP. You got his thesis wrong.
This is rich, a progressive making a case for ...a federal government of limited, enumerated powers, I am smiling at my cup of coffee, Sarcastr0.
Trump has made progressives into big fans of federalism, for sure!
The only sad part is it means throwing the red states to the wolves. Alas.
>..a federal government of limited, enumerated powers,
Meanwhile, when asked for a limited principle on the General Welfare Clause, Sacastr0 came back empty.
When Obama and Biden (BIRM) are president, there is no limit to Constitutional power so long as it's claimed to serve "the general welfare".
When Trump is president, we're a limited government of enumerated powers.
He's a partisan douchebag just like not guilty.
Oh, Gaslighto, the Confederate Army *peaked* at less than 5% of that, 0.5M or 464,646 and that wasn't a "rebellion"?
Any declaration of war would never have passed a 50-50 Senate with a filibuster option.
And either Truman or Kennedy/Johnson get a declaration for their wars?
Hey, serial fabricator: I've highlighted the word that makes your question both stupid and irrelevant.
Do you require an "army" for an invasion? This article mentioned the German saboteurs that landed on Long Island. They weren't an army.
Neither are narco traffickers, or human traffickers but they do just as much damage.
You don't have to have an army, but it helps!
So do facts instead of insults.
I do, yes. I proposed a definition in a thread earlier this week. The short version was this:
I think that an invasion is an organized effort by a foreign state or state-like entity to seize and control territory. (Such seizure need not be intended to be permanent; if we send troops to a foreign country to overthrow the government and install our own choice and then we withdraw after accomplishing that, it's still an invasion because we were controlling the territory for a time and usurping the existing government.)
Actually it does occur in the Constitution. The President is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. A primary mission of the Armed Forces is the security of the Country's Border. It is one of the primary reasons that there even was an Army.
1. Not the question the OP answers.
2. Not the actual primary reasons for our army at the Founding. Which was a war we got in.
3. Using military at the border is against the law, since that's law enforcement not war.
#3 is bullshit when the border incursion is an invasion.
Question begging.
"10M is border encounters. Not illegal aliens crossing the border."
Who are they encountering on our side of the border if not aliens? Armadillos?
when most are young armed men who kill people, destroy property, (I'll give you they aren't eating Cats/Dogs) not only yeah, but Hay-ull Yeah! (HT S. Austin)
The power to decide renders your determination that the invasion is imaginary irrelevant, as you have no power to anti-decide.
Maybe Congress could undeclare an invasion they thought was imaginary, certainly they could with a law subject to presentiment.
The power to decide renders your determination that the invasion is imaginary irrelevant, as you have no power to anti-decide.
Can't imagine why people thing you're an authoritarian.
Who died and elected Randal to be Dictator For Life?
What exactly is authoritarian about noticing that such authority as the government actually possesses is exercised by the people who actually got elected, rather than random people on the internet, and so the opinions of the people who actually got elected, not random people on the internet, are what matter?
There is, insofar as I know, no constitutional or statutory definition of "invasion", which makes determining whether one is occurring a discretionary act.
Which Trump, and not Randal, gets to do.
You didn't say anything about what the government possesses, you jumped straight to 'whose going to stop them?'
That's authoritarian. Doesn't matter who got how many votes, you're arguing the government is right until someone stops it.
I mean, that's right in keeping with your 2A is for revolution, eh?
There is, insofar as I know, no constitutional or statutory definition of "invasion", which makes determining whether one is occurring a discretionary act.
All words not defined by Congress the President gets to make them whatever he wants!
Only time I've heard that before was history of the early Soviet Union!
Don't stroke out, Sarcastr0, having to live through administrations you don't like is a normal part of life, you should try to get used to it, it's going to happen often enough.
Indeed, if there is no statutory definition of "invasion", the guy charged with deciding if there was an invasion gets to make the call, not the people who aren't charged with that decision.
Weird change of subject. I'm not talking about Trump here, I'm talking about the argument you just made.
That words Congress didn't get to first mean only exactly what the President says they mean, and that's all there is to it.
I mean, I always knew you were going to get there, but you sure just took a lurch in that direction the moment Trump was in office.
I second Brett's comment about stroke. You're being even less coherent than usual here.
Thanks for the empty cheerleading; hope you enjoyed writing that comment.
You're not talking about Trump, you're talking about the argument I just made... about Trump?
Correct, Brett!
I'm taking issue with your argument.
I'm sure I'll have plenty of time to take issue with Trump later.
Maybe not stroke, Sarcastr0. I'd call it shell-shocked, or knackered, if you will. It has been a rough week, for partisans like yourself. Just think, another 103 weeks to go. 😉
Commenter has thusfar gloated about the following:
-imaginary Feds who will get fired
-CNN people getting fired
-various liberal commenters here being miserable
-liberals elsewhere being miserable.
-DEIA supporters being miserable.
Taking joy in other's misery is a vice shared by everyone. Making it your whole thing is awful.
by the people who actually got elected, rather than random people on the internet
I didn't say that I got to decide, or even what the answer was in this case. I said the courts get to decide. The interpretation of the constitution falls to the courts, not the President or even Congress.
Again, if something is an invasion, then the President / Congress get to decide when / how to respond. But if it's not an invasion, they can't pretend it is. And that lack of power is enforced by the courts.
You guys calling yourselves "conservatives" is becoming laughable. Just think if Biden had usurped the courts' power to interpret the Constitution. Is that really the country you want?
If he's that stupid, then it should be a piece of cake to prove it. That you resort to insults as your first line of attack implies you have no second line of attack.
You Josh-haters are your own worst enemies.
The insults are there for color! They aren't the argument, silly.
The people who have no case are those that claim an "invasion" is occurring.
How many troops or civilians have been killed by the invaders? How many towns have been occupied?
What flag do the invaders fly at City Hall when they take over towns? What flags or insignia are on their uniforms?
What artillery are they using? What armored vehicles? What rifles?
Yes and no. It is inherent in an invasion that you don't need to declare anything, but just need to get on with stopping it. The one exception is if the president wants to suspend the writ of habeas corpus. That might require him to say in an EO that an invasion is taking place.
That would require him to get Congress to act, because suspending the writ is a power of Congress, not the President.
Ah, you're right. I'd misremembered the story of Ex parte Milligan.
(Although the extra credit question is whether it is inherent in the Constitution that only Congress can authorise a suspension of the writ (or suspend it itself), or whether that is only because suspending the writ is contrary to section 14 of the Judiciary Act 1789, meaning that you need another Act of Congress to amend the 1789 Act. The Constitution doesn't say who may do the suspending, but the issue is mentioned in Article I. On the other hand, one might argue that suspending the writ is part of the "responding to emergencies" powers that are normally exercised by the President.)
I think that it's established in Article 1, the portion of the Constitution relating to the legislature, is in fact determinant.
Actually, I believe Lincoln understood this to be the case, too. ""Are all the laws but one to go unexecuted, and the Government itself go to pieces lest that one be violated?"."
His suspension of the writ without Congressional authorization was that one law he chose to violate. He KNEW he was acting unconstitutionally.
Didn't the Supreme Court, in the GITMO cases, make a distinction between constitutional habeas and statutory habeas? And didn't that have theoretical implications for how and where they might be suspended?
I'm not seeing the relevance here for a case where Lincoln literally conceded that he was acting illegally.
I think it's actually funny that you have people today arguing that Lincoln's action was constitutional, when even he didn't think it was.
Well, he didn't think it was lawful, which is a much clearer question.
Given that section 14 of the Judiciary Act 1789 (or indeed any part of the Judiciary Act) doesn't apply to GITMO, you can see how it might have come up in that case, at least for people who believe (like I do) that the Constitution follows the flag.
You are completely and utterly mistaken.
That's a rhetorical flourish, not Lincoln's explanation. From that link:
"The provision of the Constitution that "the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended unless when, in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety may require it" is equivalent to a provision—is a provision—that such privilege may be suspended when, in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety does require it. It was decided that we have a case of rebellion and that the public safety does require the qualified suspension of the privilege of the writ which was authorized to be made. Now it is insisted that Congress, and not the Executive, is vested with this power; but the Constitution itself is silent as to which or who is to exercise the power; and as the provision was plainly made for a dangerous emergency, it can not be believed the framers of the instrument intended that in every case the danger should run its course until Congress could be called together, the very assembling of which might be prevented, as was intended in this case, by the rebellion."
Lincoln referenced his Attorney General's lengthy analysis of the legal issues (later given to Congress) in his message. The message was for public consumption, the legal arguments could be found in newspapers across the country on all sides.
Lincoln continued to issue orders suspending the the writ and forwarding them to Congress to ratify when they were in session. I would expect in case of rebellion or invasion, the President would do the same today.
You believe incorrectly, as always stopping your reading the moment you find something you believe supports your prejudices. From your own link:
The constitution isn't silent, though, as it placed the power squarely in Article 1.
What you've got here is a concession he's breaking the law, (The 'but one' law.) and then an attempt to rationalize that he isn't really.
But if he really thought he wasn't, then there wasn't any 'but one' law to counter all laws!
No, it did no such thing. It placed a mention in Article I. Article I does not say, "Congress has the power to suspend habeas corpus." It says "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."
That does not say who can suspend it. Yes, including that in Article I can be read to imply that it is up to Congress, but it certainly doesn't "squarely" say anything.
"That would require him to get Congress to act, because suspending the writ is a power of Congress, not the President."
Yes, but the President has the power to order people to split their neighbors' heads open, and feast on the goo inside.
Loose language is what keeps Lawyers employed. You are right.
The point is that to repel an invasion, don't you need to, you know, DEFINE what an invasion is? And who gets to make that call? You?
The point is that to eat an ice cream cone, don't you need to, you know, DEFINE what an ice cream cone is?
And who gets to make that call? You?
If there were massive public resources authorized to be directed toward this "ice cream cone", then yes, someone would have to define what that is.
OK, fine amendment to your original thesis.
The point is that to procure an F-35, don't you need to, you know, DEFINE what an F-35 is?
And who gets to make that call? You?
Congress has been notably silent on how they define F-35!
"And if the President can repel an invasion, then he necessarily has the power to declare when such an invasion is occurring."
No he doesn't. He has the responsibility to distinguish an invasion from a non-invasion.
Similarly, the executive of Hawaii doesn't need to wait for a declaration of invasion if he is actually invaded, the fact that he is actually invaded is sufficient.
Determining that an invasion has occurred for purposes of repelling it is literally all that "declaring" an invasion means.
I've yet to see a good case for 'invasion', in a legal sense. Rhetorically yes, we were overrun (invaded?) with 10MM illegal aliens in 4 years (could be more).
To me, what we have here is a case of presidential maladministration, from Biden. Isn't that actually the case? Mayorkas was impeached.
I am somewhat blasé about bad legal cases, given that so much of current constitutional jurisprudence is composed of them. It's hardly the worst legal case I've seen taken seriously, your policy opposition might be skewing your judgement here.
It's not like he's declaring a passing cloud to be an invasion. He's declaring a shitload of people crossing our border contrary to our law to be one. That carries quite a bit of inherent plausibility.
We agree on the phenomenon = we got millions and millions of illegal aliens that entered the country in the last 4 years
Right now, I come down on the maladministration side of the ledger, but am open to reading/understanding what the legal argument is, declaring an invasion. We need some more blog posts, esp from Ilya The Lesser (whatever he says, do the opposite, and you win in court, heh).
Is there a legal definition of invasion? Don't know.
Does an invasion require a foreign army in uniform? Don't know.
I am totally on board with the policy of removing every illegal alien we can lay our hands on. The faster the better. My complaint with Tom Homan is there were only ~300 yesterday. He needs to add a zero and make it 3K/daily (or more).
"My complaint with Tom Homan is there were only ~300 yesterday. He needs to add a zero and make it 3K/daily (or more)."
Sure. We, of course, don't know what preparations the Biden administration made for Trump's takeover, to slow policy changes. There was, of course, that effort to sell off as much of the border wall material as possible before Trump took office, so we know that administration WAS attempting to frustrate Trump border policies.
So I would not be shocked to find that Biden had done something to make it hard for Trump to promptly resume deportations.
We, of course, don't know what preparations the Biden administration made for Trump's takeover
So time for speculative theorizing!
No, "speculative theorizing" would be me proposing ways Biden could have deployed the border patrol so as to make quick action impossible. All I did here was to point out that we already know the motive and will to act were present, so it would not be shocking if we find out he did something of that sort.
it would not be shocking if we find out he did something of that sort.
This is you, speculating.
And based on your history, it's not long till you'll be citing it as unassailable fact.
And then proved wrong, as always. But here's the thing : There's never any consequence to Brett insisting on another goofy conspiracy. Not (of course) in this forum or the real world beyond; no one would expect consequences from that. But in the fevered mind of BrettWorld.
See, he doesn't care if he makes a fool of himself with 10,000 imbecilic conspiracies as long as he gets to do a 10,001st. He just doesn't care. Most people hope to have some value in their words they use. But, Brett? He just doesn't care.
Go fuck yourself Brett.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/fact-check-biden-selling-off-203500923.html
“In selling the leftover parts of the southern border wall, the Biden administration was complying with legislation introduced by Rep. Mike Rogers, a Republican from Alabama, and signed into law Dec. 22, 2023.”
Tick tock.
Do it yourself, there weren't any "excess" materials being auctioned, they were needed materials Biden simply hadn't used yet, because despite a court order to resume construction, he was slow walking border wall construction.
But they weren't "excess" just because he'd so far refused to use them.
"he was slow walking border wall construction" doesn't seem supported by anything I've seen in this thread.
And is a sideways retreat from what Brett claimed in the comment immediately above. To borrow someone's frequent point : He moved the goalposts.
(I take it we're not supposed to notice that. Kinda obvious, tho)
I am somewhat blasé about bad legal cases
So you get angry at some stuff you've decided is unconstitutional, but not others.
They call that double standards.
It's not like he's declaring a passing cloud to be an invasion.
But by your logic he could! After all, 'you have no power to anti-decide.'
Suppose Bob and Harry both commit burglaries.
Bob does it to pay for chemo for his wife. Harry does it to buy crack so he can sell it to children for a profit.
I don't ask that the judge be as mad at Bob as Harry, I just ask that he treat them both as burglars.
Same thing here. You should not expect me to get as mad about a constitutional violation in (what I think is) a good cause, as I do about a constitutional violation in a bad cause. But you should expect me to agree that both are constitutional violations.
I do not think it a constitutional violation to declare that millions of foreigners forcing their way into our country illegally is an "invasion". I think it is well within a President's legitimate discretion, since, as I keep pointing out, there isn't any contrary legal definition of "invasion".
That's a pretty telling analogy you got there.
Policies you like are like a man paying for chemo for his wife.
Policy you don't are like selling crack to children.
That's...not how you should decide when to have fidelity to the law.
I do not think it a constitutional violation to declare that millions of foreigners forcing their way into our country illegally is an "invasion".
And yet, you deploy: "I am somewhat blasé about bad legal cases."
Yeah, like, for instance, his birthright citizenship order. Legally that's a real stinker in my opinion, even if I think the cause is a good one, and would support a constitutional amendment to that end.
Could you go a bit easier on Gaslighto?
He hasn't been having a very good week.
He was unburdened by what has been and needs a little time.
Given that none of them are soldiers, it carries no plausibility whatsoever.
(Yes, yes, I await someone pointing out that some of the illegal immigrants could have served in their countries' armies at some point.)
Who says it has to be soldiers to be an invasion? What part of the constitution, what statute, law, regulation, SCOTUS decision?
From the dictionary:
"an incursion by a large number of people or things into a place or sphere of activity."
1. That's the second definition; you didn't include the first one: "an instance of invading a country or region with an armed force." If you want to play objective analyst, include countervailing information. Otherwise it looks like you're in bad faith.
2. The second definition is meant to cover stuff like The British Invasion.
Do you think that the President could have activated the military to repel Herman's Hermits?
Constitution just uses "invasion".
"The second definition is meant to cover stuff like The British Invasion."
Or stuff like "home invasion"
I'm quite comfortable with the notion that the Constitution does not cover repelling the British Invasion.
I gave you an example of a non-military situation where we use "invasion" in the second sense, but you double down on stupid
Whoever said you were having a bad week got it right.
You gave an example of a crime. A crime that's only a federal responsibility in rare instances.
Do you think that's in the intended scope of the Invasion Clause?
Black's Law Dictionary:
Invasion
Definition and Citations:
An encroachment upon the rights of another; the incursion of an army for conquest or plunder. Webster. See ^Etna Ins. Co. v. Boon, 95 U. S. 129, 24 L. Ed. 395. ?
So either it's military or well outside of the the pre-14A Union.
Because no, the President was not responsible for protecting each individual in the various states from encroachments upon their rights.
Until the 14A came along.
Well, I don't know, I'm not a lawyer or legal scholar. I'm just engaging in this because I support what Trump wants to do about the border. It's gone to far.
I also think we should reform the legal immigration process, which is sclerotic. Maybe build a bunch of Ellis Island like facilities along the borders, like Trump hotels. 🙂
I also think we should reform the legal immigration process. And I don't mind including some security measures in the mix as well.
But I do not fool myself that a grand and well funded initiative is in the offing. Or anything, really. The GOP has shown they're not willing to pass anything on immigration that does not own the libs.
While I agree that it's gone too far, nothing that Trump does about the border* is going to have any real impact unless he issues a blanket order to shoot on sight. (I'm not trying to be hyperbolic here.) The issues that drive migrants to our Southern border are largely a horrific life in their home countries due to violence and deep poverty. If strengthening our Southern border is the only solution we're willing to entertain, then the measures Trump's administration uses to dissuade migrants has to be more painful than the conditions they're leaving. Otherwise, it'll still look like a good deal.
I worry that setting up a bunch of places to house incoming immigrants in groups--concentrating them for efficiently dealing with them--would end very badly. If the Trump administration follows through on it's promise to conduct federal raids house-to-house in order to deport suspected illegal immigrants, we'll be getting a first-hand look at what we've only read about in history books.
* It's worth noting that Trump hasn't been talking about strengthening our Northern border or cracking down on illegal migrants who come here on one type of visa (say tourist or college) and then set up a life and get a job in violation of that visa. Airports remain a common point of entry for illegal immigrants. Also, building walls and other barriers on the Southern border will require violating the rights of US landowners who will lose access to their land in various spots along the route.
Well then it's not really a power.
Declaring war is a congressional statement of intent to engage in armed combat. An invasion is declared by another country. If the President is declaring an invasion he is a traitor working for the other side.
When Tren de Aragua comes to your neighborhood get back to us --- if you are still alive.
He's a traitor working for the other side on account of militarily frustrating the efforts of the other side? A strange sort of "working for", this.
I believe Blackman has laid out the case. Common sense and Justice Story's opinion for the Court in Martin v. Mott stand for the proposition that the President is the one to decide whether an "invasion" has occurred. In exigent circumstances, he can hardly be expected to sit around waiting for Congress to debate and decide the matter before acting.
As Prof. Somin pointed out the other day, "This is an emergency and we can't wait for Congress to act" is insultingly dishonest when one is talking about a phenomenon that has been going on for years. They absolutely can be expeced to sit around waiting for Congress to debate and decide the matter before acting, in this type of situation.
I disagree. Trump has only been president since Monday. Biden, et.al., not only ignored the invasion but aided and abetted it, encouraged it. Congress did nothing for four years. There's no time like the present to respond to the emergency.
The facts disagree.
Obama deported more illegal migrants than Trump in his first term. Deportations dropped when Trump took the presidency in 2016. And while Biden remained on par with Trump overall, he deported nearly 800K in a single year post lockdown beating any of Trump's years in office.
Obama #1: 2.9M deported
Obama #2: 1.9M
Trump #1: 1.5M
Biden #1: 1.49M
So if 1.49M in the midst of a deadly epidemic is "ignor[ing] the invasion" then the equivalent number under Trump's first term must mean the same thing? Trump ignored it?
And when Congress tried to pass a bipartisan border security bill and Trump ordered his lackeys to kill it, that wasn't an "emergency" then but is so now less than a year later?
I get why Trump didn't want Congress to pass any sort of border security bill before the election, and certainly it's true that its failure belongs to Congress, but it was the GOP that ensured Congress "did nothing" here.
The only true thing you said here is that "Trump has only been president since Monday."
I like your optimism of saying Biden #1.
LOL. I'm an old-school software developer and database admin. Data labels matter.
I wish Biden many more years of health.
This strikes me as the wrong way round.
As Commander in Chief the President obviously has the power to order a bunch of soldiers to march up and down in the wilds of Arkansas carrying rifles and full packs. That’s what CinCs do.
So the correct question is if the President wishes to deploy troops in such and such a place, and do such and such things, what are the legal constraints on the such and suches in question ?
So it’s a negative question - is the President forbidden from giving particular orders to the troops under his command ? Which obviously depends on the details.
President commands the military but does not command ordinary civilians. Ideally, any restrictions on liberty - such as arrests - would have to be authorized by an act of Congress.
To be sure, the power to suspend the writ of habeas corpus is limited to Congress. But it IS the President's job to repel invasions, and military action does ordinarily involve detention of belligerents.
So, arrest of citizens would likely require an act of Congress, if it weren't taking place for reasons that would suffice apart from an invasion. But arrest of the invaders themselves would not.
And, of course, our immigration laws already authorize such detention for anybody who is deportable.
I believe your questions are interrelated with the question Blackman is posing, but more of "Step 2" questions.
The Constitution gives the President certain powers in dealing with "invasions". So, the first question is, "Can the President unilaterally decide that an invasion has occurred?" If the answer is "yes", then a follow-up question is, "What, if anything, can Congress do about it?" which is, admittedly, a more complicated question, and more in line with the points you are bringing up.
Zivotofsky v. Kerry (2015) involved the refusal of the Obama State Department to issue a passport with "Jerusalem, Israel" (as opposed to just "Jerusalem"), despite a Congressional statute expressly allowing it. A divided Court sided with the State Department, holding that the case fell within the exclusive power of the President to recognize foreign nations. The various opinions discussed some of the issues here dealing with the ability of Congress to restrict the President in his conduct of foreign affairs.
Number of times the word "invasion" appears in Article 2: zero.
I am not a lawyer but Google tells me Posse Comitatus Act limits the use of the Military within the US borders.
"“Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.” (emphasis mine)
My educated guess is this is why we're seeing MAGAts using the words "declare" and "invasion" because these imply a military conflict for which the military could be used rather than a civilian policing action that is prohibited by the Posse Comitatus Act.
An invasion is concerted armed belligerency by a nation, not straggling individuals seeking succor.
And your opinion will matter just as long as you're a President, or a majority in Congress agree with you.
Reality is whatever the king says it is!
That's not worse than "reality is whatever pseudonymous randos on the internet declare it is".
Actually, what's true or not does not depend on who is speaking.
If you don't want to engage because we're all just Internet commenters, then feel free to quit commenting here.
Otherwise, 'you're not Trump so your opinion doesn't count' is just the flounce of an authoritarian.
"Actually, what's true or not does not depend on who is speaking."
So, "Bob has been acquitted." coming from the jury foreman carries no more weight than "Bob has been convicted!" coming from you?
What's "true" in a legal sense often does hinge on who exactly said that it was true.
Now, if there were some objective legal definition of "invasion" that you were appealing to, you might have something like a point. Can you direct me to the statutory definition of "invasion"? I haven't found it yet.
The idea that the truth doesn't matter and only power does is baseline authoritarian.
Seems like only days ago you loves to say 'the Constitution means what I think, and not what anyone else or SCOTUS says.'
Those days are gone. Now here you are, saying the exact opposite. And not for what the law is, for what words mean.
The idea that literally millions of people crossing our border contrary to our law is so far from whatever Platonic ideal definition of "invasion" you've got in your head, that the guy who literally was elected to make calls like this can't legitimately call it an invasion, is rather arrogant.
You above said random Internet commenters opinions don't matter. Only those in authority matter
Now your opinion does?
What gives?
Seriously, Sarcastr0, take a deep breath. Take up meditation. Or get a prescription for Thorazine.
You're not going to last 4 years at this rate.
Seeing a lot of the right-wing shitposters on here, when they're losing, going for disengagement by just saying 'you're mad about Trump lol.'
You didn't used to, but you've been dipping into shitposter tactics more and more lately.
1) He was not literally elected to make calls like that.
2) The idea that a bunch of people individually choosing to come across the border without hostile intent is an invasion is laughably stupid.
If this is an "invasion", wtf was Russia's action in February 2022?
A "super-duper" invasion?
Yes, or Hamas's attack in October 2023. Those people weren't coming to get jobs as dishwashers or landscapers in Israel.
Any word not defined by law is now subject to the whimsical interpretation of the President and Brett is totally ok with that.
"Supreme" law of that land? What does that even mean?
"Writ"?
"inhabitant"
"Person"
We're going to need a lot more laws to fix all the obvious questions as to what basic words mean!
The Founders expected people to be more intelligent than you and your fellow MAGAtards.
That's not how it works. In the absence of a statutorily-supplied definition of a word, courts do not say that it means whatever a politician announces he wants it to mean; they look to the dictionary.
Black's Law Dictionary, 2nd Ed.:
"Invasion
Definition and Citations:
An encroachment upon the rights of another; the incursion of an army for conquest or plunder. Webster. See ^Etna Ins. Co. v. Boon, 95 U. S. 129, 24 L. Ed. 395."
So, not just an army, but an incursion by a large number of people or things into a place or sphere of activity.
Is that not what's going on at the Southern border?
Where did you get the made-up part of your definition? Your own citation uses the term "army"!
You're free to quit coming to this blog if you don't like seeing people's opinions, you know. Meanwhile, people are free to have opinions and talk about them, as demonstrated by the comment policy of the VC. Also, you're being a dirty little hypocrite.
Then you have no problem with Gov Abbott making sure that only decent folks seeking succor get in, right???? No pushers, terrorists, perverts....You don't see what you are saying. It isn't laughable because this is a serious subject but do you think worthy immigrants aren't terrified of Tren de Aragua for example
Poor Moe-hammad Atta and his buds, if only the jobs at Delta had worked out........
"by a nation"
So if Hezbollah sends fighters across the border to kill Jews, not an "invasion"?
No. It's an act of terror. Hezbollah isn't a government.
(Though, Hamas used to be an elected government and that might have qualified at that time.)
In my proposed definition of invasion, I said that it has to be by a state or a state-like thing. Hezbollah is not merely a terrorist group; it's essentially part of the Lebanese government. It effectively governs territory. I have no problem saying that Hezbollah can invade. (But that does not mean that every terrorist group is a government.)
While that definition is reasonable, IMHO, I look also at the implications. To be an invasion, the responding nation should be justified in assuming the invading army has declared war and that the war is against the invading government. So if a neighboring country was invaded by Hezbollah, it's is as if the government of Lebanon, of which Hezbollah is part, has declared war and all of Lebanon is implicated. I think this is where Hezbollah tries to use the gray area between terrorist organization and government for cover. (or, if you like, the IRA in the 1970s.) In all cases, though, armed soldiers with some government connection.
"...A reader opined that because Congress has the power ..."
Well, it took several years; but we finally have confirmation that Josh DOES, in fact, read the comments here at the VC.
He doesn't communicate with you personally to congratulate a particularly witty rejoinder??
He previously claimed he did not read the comments. As I recall, that was shortly after a commenter noted that he never defended his posts from any criticisms leveled in the comments.
Which would seem to indicate he did read comments or he wouldn't have seen "never defended posts" comment.
"A reader opined that because Congress has the power to declare war, the President cannot unilaterally declare an invasion."
If you're referring to me, I was just denying that the President had sole power to declare an invasion is taking place. I think Congress also necessarily has that power, as an aspect of their power to declare war, just as the President has it as an aspect of his power to repel invasions.
I hardly meant to imply that only Congress could do it.
Neither Congress nor the President (nor Musk) can "declare an invasion." The victim doesn't get to "declare an attack is taking place." As was mentioned way up thread, if Mexico's army invades, the Mexican government as declared war and then the army crosses our border. We mere recognize what is already happening--a foreign country has invaded. When Russia invaded the Ukraine, Putin declared the invasion and not Zelenskyy.
Barefoot children sneaking under a broken barbed wire fence aren't an army nor an invasion, declared or otherwise. Neither the President (nor Congress) gets to "declare" that innocent civilians are an "invasion" in order to avoid the Posse Comitatus Act.
My other question.
POTUS Trump has sent another 1,500 troops to the border, bringing the total around 5,000. Presumably, they act in support of CBP. Could that change?
Meaning, actively station US troops on the border wall and physically repel people from coming across. Would that be legal (pass constitutional muster)? For example, could US military deploy (and use) non-lethal anti-riot equipment (sound, microwave) on illegal aliens trying to cross the border, to repel them?
TRAINING, they're doing TRAINING, ARMY TRAINING!! (HT Private J. Winger) which typically involves shooting guns (sometimes with real Bull-wets (HT E Fudd) laying down mines, concertina wire, and CS Gas, lots of CS Gas, in fact if you don't have a taste of CS Gas in your throat it's probably Air Farce or Navy training (or my Navy Officer "Indoctrination*" which included Clams on the half shell and roller-skates, roller-skates). And if any unfortunates happen to wander onto a live fire range, they'll only do it once.
Frank
* Future Navy Nurses, Docs, Shysters, Chaplains, get "Indoctrinated" everyone else gets trained.
Trump ought to name federal lands adjacent to the border as military test ranges and begin live fire exercises.
Like I said elsewhere, what we really need here is a 1500 mile by 100 foot wide military base.
IANAL but if the Posse Comitatus Act is the primary legal barrier it has an exemption that seems to grant Congress the power to direct the military to engage in a policing action within the borders. But without direct constitutional or congressional approval, the Act makes it illegal.
If the military is released into the country to support border patrol policing actions, we could see the army going door-to-door pulling suspected illegal immigrants into the streets and transporting them to camps--at least in those areas where CBP has jurisdiction which extends 100 miles from the border. For demonstration purposes, California is roughly 175 miles wide with most of its population living next to the ocean (border). Roughly 200M Americans live within CBPs jurisdiction.
Might Trump's designation of Mexican cartels as terrorist groups give him a valid exception to the Posse Comitatus Act?
Also, what was the legal framework for President Wilson's response to Pancho Villa's invasion of the United States in 1915?
Pancho was just born 150 years (146 to be exact) too soon, he'd be in Congress today.
Correction: Apparently Pancho Villa invaded New Mexico in March of 1916.
I'm reading that by August, 1916, President Wilson had over 100,000 troops on the border.
Correct, and both MacArthur and Patton served in that war, if memory serves. Along with Omar Bradley.
Well, a president did declare an invasion, so unless a supreme court says he can't, he can, because he did.
AFAIC the question is not whether the president has the power to declare an invasion - he has - but whether he can be challenged when he declares an invasion and there isn't one. This SC will almost certainly allow him to do so. But as a matter of fact and usage - particularly wrt the meaning of "invasion" in 1788 - there is no invasion.
What if rather than an invasion he had declared an emergency based on the previous administrations failure to enforce immigration law.
That is far more plausible, but denies him the control over the military and militia that he wants.
What authority did Ike use to send the military to enforce desegregation?
What we can be sure of is that whatever Trump decides, Josh will support it and the Trumpsters here will agree with it.
If Trump says there's an invasion, there's an invasion. If he says there isn't, there isn't. All their reality is refracted through a Trumpian lens. Have sympathy for them, they can't help it.
I didn't vote for Trump in 2024, but I don't have TDS. If immigration over the last eight years has been an invasion, it's been one whether Trump or "Trumpians" say so or not.
I actually support an open borders treaty with Mexico because I think the border would be more secure if Mexican citizens looking for work came through border checkpoints and just flashed an ID--like Americans do on the border with Canada. That would make it a lot easier to catch the cartels and other bad guys sneaking across the desert. It would also mean more cheap labor available for the economy which a good thing--like an abundance of cheap energy.
Thing is, there's no way the American people will support an open borders treaty with Mexico--or any increased levels of legal immigration--so long as the border remains insecure. We probably can't even get to DACA without achieving a secure border first. Because of that, securing the border should be job one for all Americans, no matter where we stand on immigration. And I think that remains true no matter what Trump or "Trumpians" say.
I don't think the majority of people coming over the border are Mexican nationals. That was so fifties and the "wet back" era.
It's not a perfect solution, but it helps. Quitting smoking won't entirely eliminate the risk of cancer, but if we want to avoid cancer, we should quit smoking anyway,
Just commenting on your statement "so long as the border remains insecure." I'm tempted to ask you what it would take to secure "the border" because we talk about "it" as if there's just the one between the US and a lot of brown-skinned countries South of us. But we have an even longer border North of us and a many times larger ocean border that runs on the East, South, and West of the country (plus Hawaii and Alaska.) How do we secure that border? Are Americans only uncomfortable with the Southern border but aren't worried about boats and planes or people from the Great White North descending on us with ancient French dialects? While I like the image of all North American citizens being able to travel freely within NA, I think the primary issue is a tribal rejection of non-anglo immigrants in general (hence the viral nature of claims they eat pets or are all drug dealers or even the revocation of immigration to Afghan citizens that assisted the US in that war.) There is no securing any border given our size and geography. If you want to keep people out you need to either a) make crossing our border deadlier than staying home or b) help make their home less dangerous so there's no need to cross any border to escape it. For me, a) is unethical, immoral, cruel, and expensive. Whereas, b) is likely cheaper and more effective.
1) What is an invasion?
2) What does it mean to declare an invasion?
I had asked the first question before, in relation to two events in early American history. Pizzaro's first expedition to Peru and the Pilgrims landing in Massachusetts.
The general consensus was that Pizzaro's first expedition to Peru was an invasion. This was an effort by 80 armed men, with only the quasi-support of the governor of Panama at the time, if that. The expedition turned back reaching no further than Columbia.
There were questions, some said the Pilgrims were also an invasion, some disagreed. This was 120 odd individuals, some armed, some not, men and women. to form a new life in the new world.
Now, we need to ask, what's the current situation? We almost certainly have far more than 80 armed individuals crossing the border, often with the quasi-support of Mexico. We have far more than 120 individuals crossing the border to form a new life. Based on the above scenarios, what is currently going on should easily meet the definition of "invasion".
2) What does it mean to declare an invasion?
As best I can tell, the only real power this denotes is that it allows the states to use military force (engage in war). Now, technically speaking, the President saying this is nice, but it should be a power the states have on their own. Still, this seems reasonable.
It IS a power the states have on their own, constitutionally. The question here is if they exercise that power, can the federal government override it?
Not a question we're going to see resolved for several years, because the present federal government agrees that it's an invasion.
As before, I have no objection to calling Pizzaro’s expedition an invasion, but your gloss leaves out a strongly relevant factor or two: military organization, command and control, military equipment (of the time).
While I agree that probably more than 80 “armed individuals” have crossed the border heading north in the last 4 or 10 years, I am skeptical that a singular, militarily-organized, militarily-equipped (to current standards) group has recently crossed the border heading north in a manner that fully analogizes to Pizzaro.
Poncho Villa (as others have suggested) is that most recent one that comes to mind. I’d definitely cinder Villa’s 1916 expedition and “invasion” as well.
Even if it were true that 80 random armed individuals had crossed the border, out of the millions who did so during the same period it would hardly be statistically significant.
We don't need magic words here. An "authorization for use of military force" is legally a substitute for a "declaration of war". An order "go shoot those foreigners" can substitute for "I hereby declare invasion."
The Posse Comitatus Act limits that quite a bit. Our military can "go shoot those foreigners" in another country but not in ours without an act of Congress. (IANAL) Of course, if we go into another country uninvited with our army, that's technically an "invasion" and it's the one kind of invasion that gets to be declared (because it's "war.") See: Iraq.
Congress’ power to “repel invasions” necessarily makes it ultimately Congress’ call to determine what an invasion is.
Of course Congress doesn’t have to formally declare every invasion and order it repelled. It can delegate that task to the President and authorize the President to act in advance, by statute. It has done so.
But doing so does not give the President a Humpty-Dumpty like power to declare that an invasion means whatever he wants it to mean. Like every other statute authorizing the President to act, the authorizing statute also limits the President’s authority. The question is what does CONGRESS mean by an invasion. The question is, as Lewis Carroll put it, who is to be the master. Our Constitution makes Congress the master, and hence makes it the authority on what its words mean.
By enacting a system of laws which treat the power to regulate “migration” and the power to repel invasions as two very distinct powers to be handled in very different ways, Congress has made clear that one is not at all the same as the other. Moreover, by the very act of periodically reforming its immigration laws to address immigration issues, Congress has articulated the policy it wants followed on the subject and updated the policy as and to the extent it has deemed warranted. The President is simply not free to enact a completely different policy. Doing so exceeds his statutory authority.
That's pretty good except that I don't think Congress has the power to define a blueberry or the Pythagorean theorem as an "invasion" either. Congress is subject to the Constitution and while they're the proper authority to draw the line, it has to be a line plausibly consistent with what an honest person unmotivated by policy objectives would call an invasion. And since they can't delegate powers they don't have, the same restriction applies to the president.
I think immigration is a foreign policy power in which Congress and the President together have essentially plenary power unreviewable by the courts, so that decisions about immigration, when made by the correct member of the politcal branches, are in some ways analogous to other foreign policy decisions courts have declared to be unreviewable, like a declaration of war or a decision to recognize a foreign country or regime.
So I think Congress could, if it wanted to, authorize the President to employ the military to keep immigrants out. I think it has the constitutional authority to do so.
I see the situation as analogous to the Steel Seizure cases. The Supreme Court made clear that Congress could authorize President Eisenhower to seize the steel mills to help fight the Korean War if it wanted to, it just hadn’t done so.
Same here.
I object to blurring the distinction between "unreviewable by the courts" and "has the constitutional right to do so".
Consider the other mention of invasion in the Constitution:
Section 9: Powers Denied Congress
...
The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
Now maybe it's true that if Congress chooses to spuriously declare an invasion as a pretext to suspend habeas corpus, the courts can't, won't, or shouldn't second guess them. We just have to trust Congress to do what's right, and the electoral process if they don't.
However, I'm not willing to take the next step and say that Congress "has the constitutional authority to do" precisely what the constitution says they can't. That's corrupting the discourse, and has the effect of denying that it's ethically valid to hold them accountable for the misconduct later, and would be used in courts later to deny the people detained any form of redress.
The problem with Professor Somin’s argument is that he ignores a very old statute specifically authorizing the President to repel invasions. See https://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-10-armed-forces/10-usc-sect-12406/
Note that the ststute was updated in 1956 to authorize the use of military force to enforce federal law, but it long predates it.
The President was not exercising Article II powers in any of the examples Professor Blackman gave. Repelling invasions is nowhere mentioned in Article II. Rather, he was executing Congress’s Article I powers to repel invasions (and following Congress’ declaration of war in the WWII case, the power to wage war wherever the enemy may appear implied in any declaration of war) based on a Congressional statute authorizing him to do so.
That's not what that statute says, and also it begs the actual argument being made: who decides whether there is an invasion?
Q: What is an invasion?
D: A foreign military crossing our borders to seize control of our land.
R: The result of a POTUS declaring the word "invasion"
Q: What is a woman?
D: The result of a person declaring themselves a "woman"
R: A homo sapiens with XX chromosomes.
Q: What is an emergency?
D: The result of an executive declaring an emergency.
R: The result of an executive declaring an emergency.
Q: How do you people justify this rancid, destructive bullshit?
D: Because they did it first.
R: Because they did it first.
Don't bothsides this. I think there are some telling distinctions you simplify away.
Trans stuff is Dems saying individuals can say what gender they are. Right or wrong, that's not the same as the authoritarianism you cite in your other examples.
I will give you that Biden abused emergency powers [thinking student loans and...was that it?], but nothing like Trump in his first term in degree or kind, much less this new stuff.
Of course I heartily agree that in terms of danger to our civil liberties there is no comparison. The whole motivation of declaring an invasion is to justify suspending the normal rules.
I was more referring to the destructive effects on our language and ability to discuss anything, when words no longer have meaning.
Stop triggering me! Ok I have to object to this, I know it's not the point you're making but still.
D: The result of a person declaring themselves a "woman"
Even within D circles, that's a fringe take, certainly not something actually put forward as policy.
I would say the more consensus definition is
D: An adult human of the feminine gender, where gender is medically determined
Medicine has a whole apparatus for distinguishing actual transgender individuals from just wanna-be women. Haven't you seen The Silence of the Lambs?
OK, fair enough. I sacrificed accuracy for brevity.
But now let's discuss this: "where gender is medically determined".
If "medically determined" merely means "declared by someone with a medical license" then that's same problem as saying an invasion is whatever someone with governor-license or POTUS-license declares. As I think you understand, my big objection is substituting declarations for facts.
My other objection is different, and perhaps more pro-transgender than you: why should doctors have authority over this issue? If we're going to let people try to transition - and I think we absolutely should for anyone mature enough to make their own decisions - why should they need permission from some government licensed person?
If "medically determined" merely means "declared by someone with a medical license"
It doesn't mean that any more than someone with a medical license can arbitrarily declare you have cancer, even though cancer diagnoses are medical determinations.
If we're going to let people try to transition - and I think we absolutely should for anyone mature enough to make their own decisions - why should they need permission from some government licensed person?
This could mean two things. It might mean, what if the doctors get it wrong, shouldn't people get to override their doctors' diagnoses? Or it could mean that body modification and drug ingestion should be a legal personal choice.
I don't think patients get to second-guess their doctors.
To the extent that body modification and drug ingestion could be made legal for personal use, I don't think they're sufficient for changing your gender any more than cross-dressing or getting a butch haircut would be.
I think there's a third possibility, which is maybe what you were getting at and which is a not-uncommon position. Rather than just declaring yourself as a woman one day and a man the next, what if, as a biological man, you were to live as a woman consistently for a significant amount of time, like, years? Could that person be considered a woman without a medical decree?
I'm sympathetic to this, but to me, it fits the mold of common-law-marriage. In other words, the legal formalism (i.e. the marriage license or the medical decree) is just a shortcut, not strictly necessary. In other words, if a couple is married in fact, or if a person is a woman in fact, then the legal formalism can essentially be presumed. There's a point at which it would be unimaginable not to issue a marriage license or a medical diagnosis, so we can just skip that part.
You also have a slight issue with your analogy in that people with XY chromosomes are sometimes born with vaginas and considered women even by homophobic conservatives. I see what you were trying to construct and think you might look for a cleaner example.
Both the definition of the word "invasion" and the definition of the word "woman" have human rights and legal consequences but the former impacts many people directly while the latter really only impacts the individual person.
It doesn't. There is no medical test one can run — no examination of a patient's genes, no blood test, CAT scan, etc. — to distinguish. It's entirely subjective.
Psychiatric diagnosis is both a medical apparatus as well as a subjective conclusion by the doctor.
When you go to the eye doctor and they ask you to close one eye and read
I
A M
D U M
do you think that's a medical test or not? What about when they ask you how much your ear hurts on a scale of one to ten? What about when they ask you whether you feel dizzy or light-headed?
A lot of medical diagnoses rely on self-reporting by the patient. The standards of evaluation are objective.
I do not think those are medical tests, no. But most of the things you describe are — as you say — objective. In contrast, there is zero objective test for transgender status. It literally refers to an internal sense about oneself, according to its proponents. There is no standard that can be used to evaluate it.
Huh? Pain is also a internal sense about oneself. So is dizzyness and nausea. Are you saying that there is no standard that can be used to evaluate migraines and vertigo?
ICE Agent in Vermont Monday killed by a German Citizen on an expired H1B Visa, wouldn’t have happened if he’d been deported to Germany by Sleepy Joe or Major Dork-Ass
I’m going to draw an analogy between Congress’ rarely-used powers and state legislatures’ power over presidential electors. A number of coreign policy powers today commonly assumed to be the President’s are in fact Congress’, but have been mostly or entirely delegated to the President by long-standing statute. These include the powers both to repel invasions and to control immigration.
However, just because the President has exercised these powers longer than people can remember doesn’t mean the structure of the constitution has changed and he now owns them. They remain delegaged powwrs. Not only does Congress retain the ability to take them back at any time, but courts have to look to the authorizing statutes, and place in contexts with other ststutes, to see if an act of the President was in fact authorized by Congress.
My objection to the courts cases on presidential electors is similar. As I see it, while state legislatures have long delegated not just the power to appoint electors but the power to predetermine who they will vote for to the electorate, that delegation is a matter of mere custom, and does not mean that the public has acquired any rights exercisable against state legislatures on the matter. Not only do I think state legislatures have the power to take the decision back and do it themselves at any time, but I think the public is only entitled to such say in the matter as a state legislatures chooses ro give them.
I think Trump’s behavior in this regard should give people pause. Just as the framers feared an all-powerful President, they feared an all-powerful demos, and deliberately chose to give the public only a limited say in choosing the government. The public is constitutionally entitled to have a say in the selection of members of Congress only (and originally, only members of the House of Representatives). Customary practices expanding the powers of both the President and the public do not, in my view, change this. Congress is free to break custom and limit the President’s freedom of choice on matters where the constitution gives it and not the President the ultimate say. And I think exactly the same principle applies to state legislatures and Presidential electors.
"As I see it, while state legislatures have long delegated not just the power to appoint electors but the power to predetermine who they will vote for to the electorate, that delegation is a matter of mere custom, and does not mean that the public has acquired any rights exercisable against state legislatures on the matter."
Kind of; They're entitled to take that power back any time they want, but on election day, it's too late, they're stuck with the procedure they had in place at that time, and can only change it prospectively.
So, yeah, California could pass a law right now saying that in 2028 the state legislature will dictate who the electors vote for. But they can't pass a law the day after the '28 election dictating who the electors will vote for THAT YEAR.
I’m definitely curious who would have standing to challenge a president’s declaration of “XYZ is an invasion”.
If LBJ used the British Invasion as a rationale to deploy troops - after all, the pressed called it an invasion, so it must be true! - what then?
Deploy troops to do what? Detain the Beatles? Then the Beatles would have standing.
I think the standing question is interesting.
I seems that it would be an illegal immigrant that was defined as an “invader” and denied asylum.
In ex parte Quirin, the German invaders were tried and convicted in a military court. The question before SCOTUS was if these invaders should have been tried in a civilian court. SCOTUS said no, a military court is appropriate for invaders..
So does that mean that the illegal immigrant “invaders” will be tried in a military court?
Yes, send them all to Guantanamo!
(I probably shouldn't give them any more ideas...)
It goes beyond military courts.
There are lots of things you can do to an invader in the case of an invasion:
1. Unless they are actively trying to surrender on their own initiative, you can kill them without any warning, or by means that don't even allow for the possibility of surrender: long range artillery, snipers, etc.
2. You don't have to scrupulously avoid killing non-invaders in the process, just take some modest precautions to keep the numbers down. Some civilian casualties are OK. "Mistakes" are OK.
3. You don't have to check papers and ask for documents. You can shoot them because their appearance matches your ideas of what invaders look like. Stuff like "military age male" has often been deemed to be good enough.
And there are different rules on how you treat known citizens also. You can:
1. Order them to leave their homes because you plan to bomb the whole area flat.
2. Confiscate and commandeer stuff as necessary.
Of course I don't think Trump plans to do any of this. What I do suspect he plans is to push past the boundaries on reasonable suspicion and probable cause, using the legal argument that if he can (in principle) shoot them without warning that certainly includes lesser stuff like detention without any defined level of suspicion.
On the other hand, in some ways invaders get more protections. Serving in a military is not a crime; if you capture them you have to hold them as POWs; you can't prosecute them. Which is another reason why this whole "illegal aliens are invaders" thing is so fucking stupid.
David, that's baloney.
"According to the Geneva Conventions, individuals considered "prisoners of war" (POWs) are primarily members of a state's armed forces, including militias and volunteer corps that meet certain conditions, who are captured by the enemy during an international armed conflict; essentially, anyone actively participating in combat under the command of a responsible authority and clearly distinguishing themselves from civilians are entitled to POW status."
You can be an invader without meeting any of the Geneva Convention P.O.W. criteria.
I kind of hope that Trump's lawyers try out all the arguments you've made here. The -heads-we-win-tails-you-lose stuff y'all are making up ("They're exactly like soldiers but they're not at all like soldiers so it's rules of war and not rules of war at the same time", or "We can try them because we have jurisdiction over them even though they're not subject to our jurisdiction") would likely lose even Alito.
And we really need that 9-0 smackdown, if it's something like 8-1 you'll be quoting the dissent like it was the decision for the next 50 years.
"You can shoot them because their appearance matches your ideas of what invaders look like. [...] Of course I don't think Trump plans to do any of this."
I don't think he has any plans to shoot citizens he (or his agents) confuse for "invaders." However, he did blur the line between illegal and legal immigrants when he was talking about building camps for mass deportations. If he does go door-to-door to drag immigrants into detention camps, he's 100% going to be grabbing legal immigrants, people already in the legal asylum process, and both born and naturalized citizens along with them. Maybe not because they're his primary or even secondary target but more likely because they don't care enough about the people they encounter to be accurate. The MAGA base doesn't want any of them here anyway so it's not like there's going to be any meaningful downside to it for him or anyone he's able to pardon.
The MAGA base doesn't want any of them here anyway so it's not like there's going to be any meaningful downside to it for him or anyone he's able to pardon.
It's always been the case (and always will be the case) that if a majority of people throw in with lawlessness, that's the end of the Constitutional Republic. It depends at least on most people respecting the law.
That's the real danger of people like Josh, who evangelize lawlessness from positions of (at least a little) authority, in his case (and others') as a sophisticated permission structure for MAGAts.
I disagree with the assertion that the "United States" generally refers to the Congress assembled. Instead, I think the better interpretation is that it refers to the federal government (and each branch thereof), not just Congress. I think that interpretation is reinforced by the fact that the Guarantee Clause is located in Article IV and not Article I. It also wouldn't make much sense to say that "Congress" alone shall protect states from invasion. How would Congress alone protect them...by taxing and spending? Justice Taney punted on the question in Luther by holding that the Guarantee Clause is a non-justiciable political question falling outside the purview of the judiciary.
"But let's assume that communications were different. Does anyone doubt that Roosevelt could have ordered troops at Pearl Harbor to fight back against the invading Japanese Kamikazes?"
Yes, because the Japanese *military*, ordered by the Japanese *government,* was invading.
Can you honestly not see the difference between that and the U.S. in 2025?