The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
"TikTok's Tech Partners Face Massive Legal Risks by Relying on Trump's Promises Not to Enforce the Ban Law, …
as courts rarely protect defendants who count on executive non-enforcement," writes Prof. Alan Rozenshtein (Minnesota).
An excerpt from his Lawfare post:
An important feature of the [entrapment-by-estoppel] doctrine in lower courts [on which the tech companies would presumably rely in any enforcement proceeding -EV] is that it incorporates a reasonableness requirement. This test demands not only that the government "affirmatively told the defendant that the proscribed conduct was permissible," but also that the defendant "reasonably relied on the government's statement"—i.e., if a defendant "sincerely desirous of obeying the law would have accepted the information as true, and would not have been put on notice to make further inquiries."
Courts could be expected to apply this reasonableness standard more stringently when evaluating claims by sophisticated actors. Corporate entities with substantial legal resources and regulatory expertise should face greater scrutiny of their reliance claims, as they possess the capacity to independently evaluate legal requirements rather than relying solely on executive statements….
The non-enforcement promise offers minimal security. As discussed above, courts rarely treat such promises as binding, even when defendants face serious consequences from relying on them. Trump could change his mind at any time or selectively enforce against companies that fall from political favor, and a future administration, taking advantage of the five-year statute of limitations, would almost certainly be free to pursue violations regardless of Trump's stance.
I'm not an expert on the subject, but I've generally found Prof. Rozenshtein's analyses to be quite thoughtful and interesting, so I thought I'd pass this along. Naturally, I'll be glad to also pass along links to serious contrary arguments.
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I would think, anyway, that "We don't intend to enforce this law for now" is rather different from "the conduct is permissible", which is to say, legal.
The conduct remains illegal, it just isn't an enforcement priority.
"The conduct remains illegal, it just isn't an enforcement priority."
Interesting point. Professor Volokh is somewhat dishonest here. How about his opinion on this?
"Their entry to the Country remains illegal, it just isn't an enforcement priority."
Yeah, I'm not really keen on Trump's decision here. Not one bit. I'm sick and tired of enforcing the law being treated as a discretionary exercise. There are valid arguments pro and con on the TikTok ban, but Congress ended the argument an enacted it. The pro arguments won.
I'm just saying that the President saying he's not going to sic the DOJ on you if you break the law isn't remotely the same thing as the President or DOJ telling you the action is "permissible".
"I'm not really keen on Trump's decision here. Not one bit."
Only Day 2 and already regrets.
Just remember . . . I already told you guys you are your own worst enemies.
I doubt you would like us to take as much liberty rewriting your comments as you took there. You should bone up on your reading skills so you rely less on your imagination and more on what is actually written.
Google paid $195 a hour on the internet..my close relative has been without labor for nine months and the earlier month her compensation check was $23660 by working at home for 10 hours a day..
Here→→ https://da.gd/income666
I expected all the while that I'd dislike a lot of stuff Trump would do. It's just I expected to dislike a lot MORE stuff Harris would have done.
I'm a political radical with outlier views. The odds of our ever having a President I actually LIKE approach zero. I have to settle for "Less awful than the alternative."
And so far Trump is shaping up to be just that: Less awful than the alternative.
That may be my new favorite post here. Amen brother!
I tend to follow the path of a political radical with outlier views as well. Although our views certainly don't line up (mine tend towards the anti-federalist in nature), I will admit that at the very least your views generally have a consistent level of intellectual honestly about them. That is, as far as I am concerned, as much as one can ask and hope for and is something that Team Red and Team Blue both so often struggle with.
I actually started as a David Friedman style anarcho-capitalist. But I eventually concluded that E. O. Wilson's jibe about socialism, ("Great idea, wrong species.") was no less true of anarchism. A certain amount of government, more than I like by far, is apparently unavoidable for humans under present circumstances.
So now I'm a libertarian minarchist, but unsure what the feasible minimum is.
The US Constitution was really a pretty good attempt at designing a stable government that would generally respect human rights. It had some obvious flaws, (Such as the assumption that there wouldn't be political parties.) and was poisoned by the compromises to avoid immediately confronting slavery, but still, pretty good.
I kind of like the old style conservative joke about the Constitution:
"It's not perfect, sure, but it's better than what we have now!"
Unfortunately, authoritarian central planning became something of a global fad back in the early 20th century, and FDR hung onto power long enough to appoint most of the Supreme court, and subvert our constitutional scheme of limited government. And today we live with the consequences of that, in terms of governmental corruption: You can't run a modern regulatory and welfare leviathan state under a limited government constitution, unless you have widespread corruption, because honest people just won't pretend you're obeying the Constitution! You have to staff it with people willing to live a lie, and they are, inherently, going to be corrupt.
I'd like to see us transition back towards something like the rule of law and constitutional government, even if I think the Constitution could stand some editing, because it hardly even matters what the law is if the government is run by people who won't obey it.
Trump is better in that regard than Harris. Not ideal, just better. Sadly, he doesn't have to be great to be better...
Minus the "libertarian" or the "min."
Libertarianism: "Great idea, wrong species."
Trump did the latter, not the former. Did you read the EO?
I wonder how much of a hurry the DOJ is going to be in to issue letters that lie about that?
"I'm just saying that the President saying he's not going to sic the DOJ on you....", "...not the former. Did you read the EO?"
Sigh... The actual text of the Executive Order.
"Sec. 2. Action. (a) I hereby order the Attorney General not to take any action on behalf of the United States to enforce the Act for 75 days from the date of this order, to permit my Administration an opportunity to determine the appropriate course of action with respect to TikTok. During this period, the Department of Justice shall take no action to enforce the Act or impose any penalties against any entity for any noncompliance with the Act, including for distributing, maintaining, or updating (or enabling the distribution, maintenance, or updating) of any foreign adversary controlled application as defined in the Act. In light of this direction, even after the expiration of the above-specified period, the Department of Justice shall not take any action to enforce the Act or impose any penalties against any entity for any conduct that occurred during the above-specified period or any period prior to the issuance of this order, including the period of time from January 19, 2025, to the signing of this order.
(b) The Attorney General shall take all appropriate action to issue written guidance to implement the provisions of subsection (a)."
Perhaps...Just perhaps...when you make claims and ask if people have read the executive order...you should read the executive order yourself.
Perhaps, just perhaps, you should try to be less of a dishonest prick. Why did you quote (a) and (b), but not (c), even though (c) is the section relevant to this discussion?
Because, in your words...you are a dishonest prick and I cited the relevant section to the discussion at hand.
To repeat, the I cited the relevant section to the discussion at hand is whether or not Trump ordered the AG to not take action to enforce the act. The actions you specifically said Trump did not order.
Whether Trump added anything else to the order is irrelevant to the discussion. That discussion is whether Trump ordered the AG to not take action to enforce the act.
In your dishonestly, you repeatedly claimed Trump did not make such. He clearly DID, and I cited the relevant text.
You can apologize for your gross mistake and calling out people for not reading the EO, when it's clear you didn't do the same. OR you can continue to obfuscate and be dishonest about it.
No, it isn't. The discussion is whether companies can rely on Trump's promise not to enforce the law. Sections (a) and (b) are not such a promise. They are a directive to the AG — not a promise to the companies — not to do anything for 75 days. The promise is in section (c), writing to the companies to tell them that they didn't break the law.
Someone didn't bother to do the reading, again.
No need to announce your shortcomings, Simple Simon. We're already aware.
Trump's EO directs the AG to tell the companies that "the conduct is permissible," not that he doesn't intend to enforce it for now.
Read the Executive Order before making inaccurate statements....
I did read it, dumbass. Remember that you're a lawyer only in your armchair. He told the AG not to enforce it for 75 days, yes. But he also told the AG to tell the companies that they wouldn't be liable during that time:
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/25499187/application-of-protecting-americans-from-foreign-adversary-controlled-applications-act-to-tiktok-t.pdf
Yes, David. They'd still be in violation of the law. But no, David, the material risk of a violation should be quite practically mitigated by the effect of, and reliance on, the President's (and soon-to-be DOJ's) non-enforcement guidance (and forthcoming documentation).
When they say that "you are right, technically speaking," the effective point is that you are wrong.
Four years from now a different President could decide to enforce the law for violations during the 75 day period. According to Rozenshtein those letters will not provide a reliable shield.
When you assert that he directed the AG to tell companies that "the conduct is permissible," what did you mean by using those quotes? The order clearly communicated, as Armchair pointed out, a very different perspective than you assert.
I meant section (c), which I quoted: "issue a letter to each provider stating that there has been no violation of the statute and that there is no liability for any conduct that occurred."
Saying that something doesn't violate the law is another way of saying that the conduct is permissible.
Prof. Rozenshtein isn't saying that Trump can't make this promise, or that he can't direct the DoJ to follow it. He's saying that the companies can't rely on it, that Trump or a subsequent President could change his mind and pursue penalties against the companies for past behavior, including periods when the nonenforcement policy was in effect, and "I relied on the President's promise" would not be an effective defense.
Of course. And no lawyer can reasonably advise their client to do something clearly illegal.
I can only surmise that there are currently vacancies at the General Counsel level of many US tech infrastructure companies...
no lawyer can reasonably advise their client to do something clearly illegal
That depends on what the question is. If the question is: "Will I get prosecuted successfully if I do this?", the answer may well be "No jury will convict you." or "This is illegal but there probably won't be a prosecution."
Substitute ethical for reasonable and...?
ABA Model Rule 1.2(d): A lawyer shall not counsel a client to engage, or assist a client, in conduct that the lawyer knows is criminal or fraudulent, but a lawyer may discuss the legal consequences of any proposed course of conduct with a client and may counsel or assist a client to make a good faith effort to determine the validity, scope, meaning or application of the law. (Emphasis added)
There may be an E&W analogue to this, but I can't be arsed right now.
I was obviously joking about the vacancies, but I maintain that any legal advice those companies will have received did not include any advice to the effect that the proposed conduct was not illegal or that the company should violate the law (as written).
Traditionally in England your solicitor tells you what is legal, and your barrister tells you whether you'll win in court. (That's slightly simplified, in practice clients will ask their barrister about all difficult legal questions if they have the money to instruct one.)
Its analogous to how a US president asks the OLC what the law is, and the Solicitor-General's office whether he'd win in court.
I'm intrigued by "criminal or fraudulent"
Is this is one of these weird lawyer things where you can be drug into court and lectured on your moral failings, fined a squillion dollars and sent for 20 years to Devil's Island, but no sirree Bob, this is not a "criminal" prosecution, it's just "civil"?
Or are they saying that there are things, which some folk call "fraudulent" but the law doesn't, which can be totally legal, but you mustn't advise your client to engage in, even if it would enrich the stockholders to the tune of $500 million ?
Might there not be a tiny clash here with the notion that the Board of the company is supposed to be acting in the stockholders interests ?
As a lawyer I can make a prediction to my client that he won't get in trouble for doing X. But even so, I cannot advise him to do it, if it's illegal.
I mean, this is semantics, but he kind of is saying that. He's obviously not saying that Trump can't say those words; he's saying that those words don't constitute a "promise." Or at least not a legally enforceable one.
Hmm. Your last sentence confirms that a promise doesn’t have to be legally enforceable to be a promise. It’s a matter of the promiser’s word.
What - assassination aside - prevents Trump keeping his word ? He can instruct the DoJ to make non prosecution agreements with such suppliers to TikTok as want them, in return for some modest undertakings. All tied up by a court in a favourable venue and it’s done. It’s not like this is rocket science- it’s not even bows and arrows science.
it's civil, not criminal; there's no prosecution to non.
He can promise his AG won't take action, and he can promise to deliver the letters. He can't provide assurance that the letters are more than scrap paper.
If Congress really wanted to shut the whole thing down it would have revoked TikTok's exemptions for liability for user-provided content. There would be a cloud of lawyers buzzing around its American headquarters. Billy called me names! Steve shared my meme!
(The Supreme Court just turned down's Steve King's appeal of a copyright case where he was ordered to pay for sharing a meme created by a liberal.)
There’s no reason to think that Congress wanted to shut down TikTok. It is true that the law allows ByteDance (TikTok’s current owner) to shut down TikTok rather than sell it, but I expect that the law was written that way because of limits on Congressional power.
They didn't want to shut it down. They wanted it sold to an American owner, so that it would be out from under Chinese control, at least in the US.
But China would rather that it be shut down than lose that control.
Because they don't like money?
For reference, this is slightly different from the Dutch rule. In the Netherlands we have used this approach for lots of things, from euthanasia to prostitution, and continue to use it for soft drugs.
The prosecutor's office publishes a prosecution guideline, which says that it will not prosecute defendants who have met conditions X, Y, Z (e.g. "no more than 20 grams of marijuana"), and if it then brings a prosecution anyway, it is declared inadmissible because the defendant was reasonably entitled to rely on the prosecution guideline.
See, most recently, the Dutch Supreme Court's Checkpoint judgment in 2016: https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/details?id=ECLI:NL:HR:2016:740
While this sounds more transparent the than broader enforcement discretion apparently enjoyed by U.S. prosecutors, it sounds very questionable. It grants something close to quasi-legislative powers to the prosecution service to abrogate criminal laws against the will of the legislature.
In Spain we don't have an enforcement discretion doctrine. Obviously, de facto it exists to some extent if the prosecution service does not have sufficient resources and informally decides not to prosecute all cases. So our way is less transparent. But we also have an actio popularis allowing anyone to bring a prosecution for any public offence (which anyway obligues the public prosecution service to take a position).
The prosecutor's office is accountable to the minister for justice, at least when it comes to overall policy questions, and the minister for justice is accountable to parliament for the action or inaction of the prosecutor's office.
So basically, if parliament doesn't like what the prosecutor's office is doing (or not doing), it can pass a motion to tell them to knock it off.
I think I should be clear that I think we're in a period of high risk here visa vi TikTok.
It is still controlled by a hostile strategic adversary, and their hope of a compliant President just evaporated.
Based on his public statements, Trump just wants some time to arrange for a hostile takeover of TikTok, without the consent of the Chinese government.
TikTok's value to the Chinese government as a surveillance operation is drawing to a close. Thus they don't have to be subtle to preserve it, there is no preserving it.
You'd expect under these circumstances that they would get what value they can out of TikTok, even if it ends the app, because it's now or never.
Yes, Elon paid him more than the CCP did. Time for the Chinese to draw their check books...
Would taking a bribe to effect a national security goal be an "official act"?
Stop interfering in our Democracy. 1000s of little British girls are getting gang raped by immigrant grooming gangs in your community but you spend all evening begging Americans to validate your horrific worldview.
Don't be stupid, Trump has FU money, you can't actually buy him. That's different from him appreciating allies, of course, and that's what Musk is: An ally.
If you want bought by the Chinese, that was the outgoing administration. Biden certainly didn't have FU money, and the family had a lot of money flowing their way from China.
Trump has FU money, you can't actually buy him.
Turns out having a ton of money doesn't turn off your desire to accumulate more.
Trump is a great example - he's still always agriftin'
Sure, but it does turn off your desire to do stuff you find objectionable to accumulate more.
Anybody who looks at what Trump's net worth did while he was in office who claims he was in it to get wealthier is an idiot. Being President cost him more money than most people would see in a hundred lifetimes.
I don't think people go into public service to get wealthier.
Trump grifted a lot when he was in office (eg: staying at his hotels with huge markups for his security detail) and then a lot recently (crypto scheme and sneakers and signed whatevers) and will continue to do so.
I don't see what makes you think he wouldn't be swayed by Chinese money as much as any other money. Even you admit his loyalty is to himself, not America.
What would you know about Trump's net worth without access to his tax returns?
More Bellmore bullshit.
I'm like 95% sure you two had this argument about Soros a couple years ago but took the opposite positions.
That sounds unlikely. Soros, too, has FU money. In fact, that's what he uses it to do...
Soros and Trump are pretty different in what they do and how, and what motivates them.
1) Trump couldn't even afford to put up bond to appeal a judgment against him.
2) You can buy — or at least rent — Trump for $29.95, regardless of how much money he has.
You apparently live in a weird parallel universe. In mine, he did indeed put up the $175M bond, in cash.
Um, that's not what the bond originally was. He had to petition the court to get it reduced because he couldn't afford it.
Um, your original blanket statement did not specify an amount.
Are you actually taking the position that you don't really have FU money if you can't just set aside over $600M in cash for a year or two?
Why are you such an ass when it comes to things "Trump"?
What's the "high risk"? That they're going to take this data, which isn't related to national security anyway, with a sinister sneer?
Meanwhile TiK Tok is still up and running and given no indication they plan to comply with the law as written and upheld by the SC.
I wanted to make oatmeal raisin cookies today but egg prices are too high. The Great Trump-Egg Depression is unacceptable! Shame!
Sad that you can't afford two large eggs, especially being a corporate lawyer and living in a mansion you got for cheap since it was in the hood.
I didn't get rich buying eggs, I'll tell you that. Where's Trump invoking the War Production Act as eggs are essential for stopping immigration. Let 'Eggs for Israel' be our new battle cry!
...and just what is the cost of a dozen large eggs in the hood?
Not too bad actually. Cage-free (the only kind I use) is about $6.50 and regular about $3.50
As much as I think you're a loathsome dipshit, please don't fall for that government approved label scam of "cage-free".
Check brands at https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/eggs/
Like all your other citations, that one has nothing to do with what you are rattling on about (cage-free). No wonder you're so angry and confused. Politics is a complex undertaking. Howsabout you master eggs and dressing yourself before taking on societal issues
That website provides a service where farms are actually visited and inspected then rated.
Government approved label phrase of "cage free" means the chickens can be living in those big chicken houses where they can't move and are covered in their own filthy.
There's a simple rule: if it's a claim on the label, you can bet your lily white ass it's some government approved inversion of the common understanding, or pragmatic, associated with that term.
A guarantee this clown was in some thread at some time complaining about White Gentrification of the hood.
The fact that companies must rely on Trump's holding to his promise of non-enforcement against activity he has deemed "legal" is, of course, a feature, not a bug, in Trump's view.
Perhaps the "External Revenue Service" could collect an annual fee - say, $1 million, payable in arrears - from service providers who wish to make TikTok available to their users, despite no qualified divestiture having occurred, still in reliance on Trump's "non-enforcement" EO.
> courts rarely protect defendants who count on executive non-enforcement," writes Prof. Alan Rozenshtein (Minnesota).
Unless they're illegals until recently.
From a business, not legal, perspective, "discretion" at this scale is indistinguishable from "arbitrary". Businesses in the US are used to dealing with this in a smaller form wrt the tax code, where the answer to any complex tax question is always, "How aggressive do you want to be?"
Building a business is hard enough without having to deal with arbitrary enforcement. But given the choice of closing down the entire US market for my service and hoping that a popular political movement lasts long enough to overcome my risk, well, that's a no-brainer.
But it would be best to have FEWER rules that are ALWAYS enforced.
""TikTok's Tech Partners Face Massive Legal Risks by Relying on Trump's Promises Not to Enforce the Ban Law, "
See that "Tech Partners" bit? You're right, there's no real downside for TikTok itself in staying in business.
But for the vendors keeping them in operation, the story is different. Google's continued profitability is hardly dependent on TikTok remaining in their app store. Maybe you need to look at what the law actually SAYS?
"(1) PROHIBITION OF FOREIGN ADVERSARY CONTROLLED APPLICATIONS.—It shall be unlawful for an entity to distribute, maintain, or update (or enable the distribution, maintenance, or updating of) a foreign adversary controlled application by carrying out, within the land or maritime borders of the United States, any of the following:
(A) Providing services to distribute, maintain, or update such foreign adversary controlled application (including any source code of such application) by means of a marketplace (including an online mobile application store) through which users within the land or maritime borders of the United States may access, maintain, or update such application.
(B) Providing internet hosting services to enable the distribution, maintenance, or updating of such foreign adversary controlled application for users within the land or maritime borders of the United States."
The law targets TikTok's IT service providers. And THEY are not existentially dependent on TikTok staying in business.
And, as I've been pointing out over in the "75 days" thread, TikTok is freely accessible in the U.S. as we speak. So a number of infrastructure companies have indeed gone through the risk assessment calculus DaveM mentioned, just as they do for any other countless number of theoretical legal risks.
I expect that, despite the fact that Trump could, in theory, bait them along, and then change his mind an prosecute them, in reality he's extremely unlikely to do that. And if Trump changes his mind about TikTok, they can shut it down like throwing a switch.
They might have some kind of reliance defense, given the actual text of the EO, too.
The analysis is interesting but I'm not sure why it's relevant. The anti-TikTok law says that they must divest or close. Failing to do so might have consequences for TikTok and its officers but what law would be broken by doing business with such an entity even if they were unambiguously violating the ban?
The exact law we're discussing, actually, as noted in my comment directly above.
Ah, thank you. I should have read the law more thoroughly.
Justice Sotomayor seemed to raise this issue also in an exchange with the SG. From pgs 169-170 of the transcript https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2024/24-656_1an2.pdf
JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: I am a little concerned that a suggestion that a president-elect or anyone else should not enforce the law when a law is in effect [and] that a company would choose to ignore enforcement on any assurance other than the change in that law. But putting that aside, on the 19th, if it doesn't shut down, there is a violation of law, correct? * * * And whatever the new president does doesn't change that reality for these companies?
GENERAL PRELOGAR: That's right.
JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: How long is the statute of limitations in effect? Assuming that they violated it that day and later continued to violate it, but how long does the statute of limitations exist for a civil violation * * * of this sort?
GENERAL PRELOGAR: It would be a five-year statute of limitations.
JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: All right. Thank you.
The discussion seems somewhat parochial to me. US businesses are used to operating in territories where the written law and the actual law as enforced are wildly different. And DaveM has mentioned that tax law is famously obscure even in the presumptively perfect US of A.
Very little about the laws affecting businesses has to do with moral principles. Thus people running businesses have to approach legal rules from a prudential perspective.
If the law says I must do this at a cost of $80 million, what’s the cost of not doing it. A x% chance of a $250 million fine, and a (100-x)% chance of nada.
The value of x is relevant in the assessment. It doesn’t become irrelevant simply because the law happens to be a US law as opposed to a Nigerian one.
I remember the written/actual distinction from Foreign Corrupt Practices Act training. If local law says don't bribe government officials and local custom says do bribe government officials, you had better not get caught bribing government officials. As an individual subject to the FACA, it's x% chance of criminal prosection and (100-x)% chance of a good performance review.