The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Jack Smith Explains Why He Did Not Charge Trump With Insurrection
And Smith demonstrates why the Colorado Supreme Court got it wrong.
Attorney General Merrick Garland has released Volume I of Jack Smith's report, which focuses on the January 6 prosecution of Trump. Smith addresses one of the lingering questions: why did he not charge Trump with violating the federal insurrection statute (18 U.S.C. § 2383). In early 2021, Seth Barrett Tillman and I wrote an article anticipating a prosecution based on Section 2283, but that case would never come.
First, Smith explains that there was no clear definition under federal law for an "insurrection." He acknowledges that the Colorado Supreme Court found that the attack on the Capitol was an insurrection as that term was used in Section 3. Likewise, some federal courts in D.C. described the attacks as an insurrection. "These cases, however, did not require the courts to resolve the issue of how to define insurrection for purposes of Section 2383, or apply that definition to the conduct of a criminal defendant in the context of January 6."
During the Section 3 debates, Will Baude, Mike Paulsen, and many others, thought it was perfectly clear what an insurrection was, and that January 6 was clearly an insurrection. Smith did not think the issue was so clear. Seth Barrett Tillman and I also did not take a position on this question.
Second, Smith did not think there was enough authority to distinguish an insurrection from a riot:
The Office recognized why courts described the attack on the Capitol as an "insurrection," but it was also aware of the litigation risk that would be presented by employing this long-dormant statute. As to the first element under Section 2383-proving an "insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof'-the cases the Office reviewed provided no guidance on what proof would be required to establish an insurrection, or to distinguish an insurrection from a riot.
Third, Smith recognized that an insurrection usually involves an attempt to overthrow a sitting government, but on January 6, Trump was President of that government.
In case law interpreting "insurrection" in another context, one court has observed that an insurrection typically involves overthrowing a sitting government, rather than maintaining power, which could pose another challenge to proving beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Trump's conduct on January 6 qualified as an insurrection given that he was the sitting President at that time. . . . The Office did not find any case in which a criminal defendant was charged with insurrection for acting within the government to maintain power, as opposed to overthrowing it or thwarting it from the outside. Applying Section 2383 in this way would have been a first, which further weighed against charging it, given the other available charges, even if there were reasonable arguments that it might apply.
In November 2023, Rob Leider argued that the President cannot commit an insurrection against the government he leads. Smith seems to have approached the issue similarly.
In response to @WilliamBaude and Michael Paulsen's article "The Sweep and Force of Section Three" (https://t.co/y4ugy7bjiC), a blog post raising a legal question about whether a president is legally capable of committing an "insurrection."
— Robert Leider (@LeiderRob) November 16, 2023
Fourth, Smith finds there was insufficient evidence to show that Trump personally engaged in insurrection, but there was evidence that he gave aid and comfort to an insurrection:
As to the second element under Section 2383, there does not appear to have ever been a prosecution under the statute for inciting, assisting, or giving aid or comfort to rebellion or insurrection. The few relevant cases that exist appear to be based on a defendant directly engaging in rebellion or insurrection, but the Office's proof did not include evidence that Mr. Trump directly engaged in insurrection himself.
The Colorado trial court, and the Colorado Supreme Court found that Trump personally engaged in insurrection.
¶196 The question remains whether the record supported the district court's finding that President Trump engaged in the January 6 insurrection by acting overtly and voluntarily with the intent of aiding or furthering the insurrectionists' common unlawful purpose. Again, mindful of our applicable standard of review, we conclude that it did, and we proceed to a necessarily detailed discussion of the evidence to show why this is so. Anderson v. Griswold, 2023 CO 63, ¶ 196, 543 P.3d 283, 332 (2023).
Jack Smith expressly disagrees with this claim. Again, Smith is not talking about whether the evidence was sufficient to demonstrate proof beyond a reasonable doubt. He said the record "did not include evidence," full stop.
Fifth, Smith writes that Trump may have given aid and comfort to an insurrection (assuming there was an insurrection.)
Thus, however strong the proof that he incited or gave aid and comfort to those who attacked the Capitol, application of those theories of liability would also have been a first.
Section 2383 permits a finding for liability if one "engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto." In other words, it is an offense to give "aid or comfort" to an "insurrection." Jack Smith thought he could convict Trump on this charge, assuming January 6 was an insurrection.
By contrast, Section 3 applies when one "shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof." Baude and Paulsen argued that Trump gave "aid and comfort" to an insurrection. But the text does not support such a claim. Seth and I explained in Sweeping and Forcing:
Yet, Baude and Paulsen conflate "engaged in insurrection," a direct and substantive criminal law offense, with giving "aid or comfort" to enemies, which permits liability based on indirect and inchoate wrongs. And in the process, they constructed a new offense that does not appear in the text of Section 3: giving aid or comfort to insurrection. The text of Section 3's "engage" prong does not extend to wrongs and crimes that are inchoate or indirect. Nor does the "engage" prong extend to inaction—for example, failing to take action with regard to an insurrection or rebellion.
Smith has rejected the core of how Baude and Paulsen understood the substantive offense under Section 3.
Sixth, Smith describes the difficult First Amendment issues with charging Trump for inciting an insurrection. Remember, almost all of the evidence would have included tweets, political speech, and otherwise-protected expression:
Thus, however strong the proof that he incited or gave aid and comfort to those who attacked the Capitol, application of those theories of liability would also have been a first. See Alexander Tsesis, Incitement to Insurrection and the First Amendment, 57 WAKE FOREST L. REV. 971, 973 & n.6 (2022) ("The likelihood of conviction under the federal incitement to insurrection statute, 18 U.S.C. § 2383 … is fraught with uncertainty because no federal court has interpreted it."). 65
In the wake of January 6, I raised some of the difficult First Amendment issues that would affect the second Trump impeachment trial. Smith seems to have been concerned by these issues:
The Office determined that there were reasonable arguments to be made that Mr. Trump's Ellipse Speech incited the violence at the Capitol on January 6 and could satisfy the Supreme Court's standard for "incitement" under Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444,447 (1969) (holding that the First Amendment does not protect advocacy "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and … likely to incite or produce such action"), particularly when the speech is viewed in the context of Mr. Trump's lengthy and deceitful voter-fraud narrative that came before it. For example, the evidence established that the violence was foreseeable to Mr. Trump, that he caused it, that it was beneficial to his plan to interfere with the certification, and that when it occurred, he made a conscious choice not to stop it and instead to leverage it for more delay. But the Office did not develop direct evidence-such as an explicit admission or communication with co-conspirators-of Mr. Trump's subjective intent to cause the full scope of the violence that occurred on January 6. Therefore, in light of the other powerful charges available, and because the Office recognized that the Brandenburg standard is a rigorous one, see, e.g., NA.A.CF v. Claiborne Hardware Co., 458 U.S. 886, 902, 927-929 (1982) (speech delivered in "passionate atmosphere" that referenced "possibility that necks would be broken" and violators of boycott would be "disciplined" did not satisfy Brandenburg standard); Brandenburg, 395 U.S. at 446-447 (reversing conviction where Ku Klux Klan leader threatened "revengeance" for "suppression" of the white race), it concluded that pursuing an incitement to insurrection charge was unnecessary.
Once again, the Colorado Supreme Court easily found that Trump's speech was not protected by the First Amendment. And it did so based on a record developed 1,600 miles from the nation's capitol, without any access to detailed investigations and internal DOJ deliberations.
President Trump contends that his speech on January 6 was protected by the First Amendment and, therefore, cannot be used to justify his disqualification from office under Section Three. The district court concluded that this speech was unprotected by the First Amendment. Anderson, ¶ 298. We agree with the district court.
Anderson v. Griswold, 2023 CO 63, ¶ 226 (2023).
In light of Smith's report, the Colorado Supreme Court's proceedings, and many of the arguments raised in that case, have not aged well.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
This "report" is just porn for "Resistance!" fanatics like "not guilty".
Sans happy ending tho.
The country already decided the question last November. They saw what they saw, made their judgment, decided upon what the actual threat to democracy was, and voted.
My opinion? People (writ large) didn't give a shit about democracy, or any potential threat to democracy. They voted on the price of eggs. Or, the perceived increase in eggs (and other stuff they wanted to buy).
(My own personal opinion is that huge swathes of the country was also either unwilling to vote for a woman of color to be President--as compared to one who was running for governor, senator, mayor, etc--or at least was much more reluctant to do so. That's un-provable, I think, so it will forever remain unsettled in my mind. Although, if Republicans do nominate a woman of color, like Nikki Haley, in 2028, then my theory might be somewhat testable.)
It's my highest hope of all hopes that the GOP gets just as progressive as the Left and nominates a disabled, transgender lesbian Woman of Color and then vote for Xir!
We'd all make santamonica81 so proud. That alone would make it worth it! I sure hope we can earn your approval!
What would be next? Sarcastr0's? One can only dream...
Was it sexism, racism, or both?
And if the people think that the "threat to democracy" is unimportant, then it's democratically decided that it's not.
So the real threat to democracy are the people advocating overturning the election "in defense of democracy". Reminiscent of burning down a village to save it.
Actually the case was intended to forestall the ability for voters to do just that. If Biden can sell infuence to our enemies and go scot-free, there is no case.
Politics
Special counsel finds Biden "willfully" disclosed classified documents, but no criminal charges warranted
I say, in both cases either dismiss or both go to court. There is the inequity and that is one big reason Biden is headed to the great Trial in the Sky and Trump is President.
So, not insurrection? Sure burned a lot of powder over nothing, then.
Oh no. Most defiantly an insurrection. We all saw it play out over the course of weeks.
You need to re-tune your tinfoil hat so the visions in your head become clearer.
Insurrection that played out over the course of weeks?! Molly, you sure are... special.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
I haven't read the Special Counsel report yet, but the reasons therein that Professor Blackman described for not charging insurrection make sense. The offenses which the D.C. indictment charged are more easily proven. The Brandenburg issue would be more difficult.
How... understated.
Which some of us have been pointing out for 4 years, and counting...
Yes, and I have been among those pointing it out.
Whatever Smith farts out his mouth would make sense to you, not guilty.
Thats just who you are.
Jack Smith has done an admirable job under difficult circumstances. Counterfactuals are not worth much, but if Merrick Garland had appointed him a year and a half earlier, American history very likely would be different and Donald Trump would now be appealing criminal convictions.
That having been said, why should anyone pay attention to someone who can't spell Pharaoh correctly?
Yeah. it was especially admirable staging those evidence photos and using a DC Grand Jury to charge his meritless offense in Florida was particularly commendable. And just minor points on the thug's journey. Looking forward to your witticisms when the real investigations start.
As always, Rivabot just spouts talking points. And as is usually the case, they're wrong; Trump was indicted by a Florida grand jury, not a DC one. (I mean, for the documents case; for the J6 case he was indicted by a DC one.)
As always, an a-hole troll is probably not the most trustworthy source. Smith staged his "evidence" photos and used a DC grand jury for the entire case, phoning (quite literally) the indictment to a Florida grand jury after the investigation was over to cover his slimly little tracks. Just some of the thug's admirable tactics.
1) Smith wasn't there, so he couldn't have staged anything.
2) The photos weren't 'staged' by any sane definition of the term. Yes, they covered up the classified documents before they took the pictures, for obvious reasons: releasing photos of classified documents would be as risky as storing them in a bathroom that anyone had access to. So what? There's no legal significance to that.
3) Rivabot's talking point was that Smith "us[ed] a DC Grand Jury to charge his meritless offense in Florida." Setting aside the sheer stupidity of claiming that the charge was "meritless," Smith did not in fact use a DC Grand Jury to charge anything; he used a SDFL grand jury to charge the offense; the talking point was false. He used a DC grand jury to investigate, not to charge.
The reason it's a talking point is that — again — it has no legal significance of any sort. There were no "tracks" to "cover." Nobody was fooled, and nobody was trying to fool anyone, because there's absolutely nothing to cover up. Any grand jury can investigate a crime where any element of the offense occurred. There's nothing nefarious there, no "tactics" to assess. Raising the issue is just FUD.
Spilling documents across the floor that were neatly packed away wasn't 'staging'?
I don't know law enforcement policy, but you're reading into things again based on vibes.
Dunno if this is the explanation, but I will note that taking the docs out of the box and arraying them (messily or no) allows you to see what the documents are, as compared to when they are in the box.
The documents themselves will of course, with appropriate safeguards, be evidence (evidence of only that the president possessed documents pursuant to the presidential records act, by the way) but that was NOT the purpose of the staged photo. Documents were artificially arranged and placeholder props with various “top secret “ markings were added to give an impression that the material was mishandled. All theatrics in the thug Smith’s farce. But like I noted, just a minor point in the lawfare abuses. And even as minor, you clowns feel compelled to defend it, quite inadequately.
The presence of the documents, not the cover sheets, is the proof that the material was mishandled. (Once again: the Presidential Records Act, which is of course irrelevant to an Espionage Act violation in any case, says that a former president cannot keep the documents, so it is legally impossible for him to have them "pursuant to" the PRA.)
Yes, just as it was legally impossible for both Pence and Biden to have them, and yet they did.
But it is still the case that taking neatly stored documents and artistically scattering them about is "staging" the photo.
Then why produce a staged photo with the placeholder props, crazy Dave? Not really all that complicated. Because Smith is and always has been an unethical thug And now his election interference charade is over and the clock says a few more days until accountability time.
Opening containers during a search and documenting their contents is generally considered standard (and responsible) procedure, yes. Kind of like law enforcement carrying guns when executing a search warrant, it’s the kind of thing certain people only seem to find objectionable when it connects to Trump.
Right, and what part of documenting their contents requires providing the media with staged photos? They could just have provided the media with photos of the neatly stacked, closed boxes, as they found them, instead of deliberately creating the impression that they found a careless mess.
You have a practitioner saying this is the practice.
Unphased, you continue to get mad at what you think should have been done, based on all your zero knowledge or experience, and your incredible devotion to the dignity of your man Trump.
Are you trying to see who gets your game?
n ancient Rome, the "Social Uprising" refers to the "Social War" (Bellum Sociale), a major conflict where Italian allies of Rome, known as "socii,"
Are your Socii a reference to some anarchist dream of yours?
He used conducted the entire grand jury process in DC, with a judge he knew would allow anything, even highly questionable breached of attorney client privilege and invasive warrants, then had an indictment read over the phone to be rubber stamped in Florida in some pro forma procedure. Yeah, no issues constitutional issues or violations of DOJ procedure there.
Smith wasn’t there? WTF??? The little thug introduced the staged photos (yes items were artificially arranged for maximum effect with props added) in his meritless joke of a case. I must have missed that excuse. Did the little thug really say, but your honor, I wasn’t there? Actually the unconstitutionally appointed little thug.
And like I said, just minor points in the thug’s illegal tenure. You better save your BS for the major lawfare abuses crazy Dave, you don’t have much of margin of sanity to waste.
That is correct. (Well, not the grammar, but the substance.) No constitutional issues, and no violations of DOJ procedure. It's seizing on a random factoid of no legal significance — akin to "the indictment was signed in red pen rather than blue pen!" — because one has no substantive arguments.
I spell "pharoh" like the ancient Aryan Pharoh's did. The pale skinned, red headed rulers of early Egypt.
Screw your PC woke nonsense.
They spelled it using letters that wouldn’t be invented for thousands of years?
It's still a mispelling.
When the Aryan's used that it was current. Yours is not.
"" pharaoh " is the English spelling of the Hebrew parʻo , which is a transliteration of the Egyptian pr - ' 3 , " great [ 3 ] house [ pr ] , " which became an appellative for the king during the 18th Dynasty
Well — unlike the J6 case — the Florida documents case wasn't ripe a year and a half earlier, so simply appointing him earlier wouldn't have solved the problem there. Rather, if any judge in the SDFL other than Aileen Cannon had gotten selected, American history very likely would be different.
But yeah, the J6 case could've gotten going much earlier. (My sense is that DOJ was (a) waiting for the J6 committee so that they didn't step on each others' toes, and (b) didn't see urgency because at that point the possibility of Trump being renominated was farfetched.)
More like, (c) None of the professional prosecutors could take the case seriously for reasons that have been amply discussed.
So… you think Trump should have been charged with an insurrection? And that this report emerged from Smith’s mouth?
And yet you were pretty vociferous that Trump be disqualified for insurrection.
I am glad you have come around, better late than never.
That's an unrelated question.
These three things can all three be true:
1. Trump is guilty of the crime of insurrection
2. The crime of insurrection, or at least this instance of it, is difficult to prove in court.
3. Trump committed insurrection in the sense of section 3.
(For the record, I think the whole thing is pretty borderline on the criminal side. On the eligibility side, where there's no reason to give Trump the benefit of the doubt, I think the correct decision is clearer.)
You always give the accused the benefit of the doubt, Martinned2. Always. It's the accuser who needs to prove their case, not the accused who needs to disprove it.
You know, I don't LIKE what Trump was up to back in 2020. He was, based on really dubious claims, encouraging members of Congress to exercise discretion in what was really a ministerial act, simply counting the EC votes. That was a wrong thing to do, even if I think the Court would probably have refused to dispute Congress' right to do it if he'd been successful.
But it's a different wrong thing from "insurrection".
Insurrection, unavoidably, involves an element of violence. And while there WAS violence on January 6th, Trump wasn't legally responsible for any of it. If the Biden DOJ had even a scrap of evidence that he was, they'd have aired it.
Sure, if you ditch Brandenburg, you can say that Trump incited the riot. If you ditch Brandenburg, the Democrats incited a hell of a lot of riots while Trump was President. So, do you really want to go there?
This isn't responsive. You go off on a tangent because you assume the only standard is the criminal one. Which is exactly not what Martinned is saying.
First of all, it IS a criminal standard, you lost that one at the Supreme court.
Second, "This isn't criminal, so I can abandon the presumption of innocence!" is not a good look.
No, we have opinions about what people did all the time absent a criminal trial, don't be stupid.
Care to hold yourself by your own unrealistic-but-convenient standards?
You call Hillary a felon, based on your personal vibes.
Massive hypocrite.
Sure, you're entitled to have an opinion. Which is of no legal significance, and Trump being disqualified under Section 3 requires legal significance, not randos' opinions.
No one here has an opinion with legal relevance; that's an odd choice for a rejoinder.
The Standard of Proof
Everyone accused of a crime is presumed to be innocent until they are proven guilty. In general, crimes must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, whereas civil claims are proven by lower standards of proof, such as the preponderance of the evidence.
“Beyond a reasonable doubt" means the prosecution has provided evidence that proves that there is no other reasonable explanation outside of the defendant's guilt.
“Preponderance of the evidence" means it is more likely than not that something occurred in a certain way.
The prosecutor in a criminal proceeding has the burden of proving that the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. This is known as the burden of proof.
Under this burden, the defendant has no obligation to prove their innocence. The standard of proof the prosecutor must meet is much higher than in a civil case. After all, criminal convictions, such as felonies and misdemeanors, tend to carry heavier consequences for a defendant than civil penalties do in civil suits.
https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-law-basics/the-differences-between-a-criminal-case-and-a-civil-case.html
(There's more to it than standard of proof, like the rule of lenity, but let's start with the basics.)
No, Brett, it isn't. Not even if you say "always" twice. That's true in a criminal context. This isn't a criminal context.
You're looking to hire a bookkeeper for your company, and are considering a particular candidate. This person left his last job abruptly, and there were rumors of financial shenanigans, but no prosecution or even civil legal proceedings were ever commenced. Do you (a) hand him the job because his qualifications are otherwise acceptable and nobody has ever proved he did anything wrong; or (b) refuse to hire him unless he proves that he didn't do anything wrong?
If your answer is (a), please let me know what your company is so that I know never to invest.
I'll say what I said to Sarcastr0 above: "This isn't criminal, so I can abandon the presumption of innocence!" is not a good look.
But now that he is again President and the whole country and almost every demographic has moved to him, that is new evidence that people just don't buy your nonsense.
It's what Stalin would call a government crime.
"there does not appear to have ever been a prosecution under the statute for inciting, assisting, or giving aid or comfort to rebellion or insurrection."
Imagine the consequences if there ever was...
"...if there ever WERE..."
Let's remember to use the subjunctive, pretend doctor Ed.
Do you have any idea how many prosecutions there could still be for just the 2020 riots?
Yes, having taught Latin , taken Spanish , and helped with English compositions, I lament the loss of the subjunctive. People still use it and I wonder what their mind thinks when they say "May he rest in peace" Not rests' which they use universallly in the 3rd person. That must affect one's rationality.
Smith fell into the same Republican trap that so many others have, which is to limit the discussion of "insurrection" just to Jan 6. Trump spearheaded a weeks long illegal effort to overturn the results of an election. That effort included the fake electors, pressuring local officials and state legislators to declare him the winner, have the DoJ falsely say the election was dirty, and pressuring Pence to throw out EC votes. Jan 6 was just the grand finale.
Trump did lead an auto-coup, and is thus ineligible for President. The CO courts got it right. The partisan shits in DC got it wrong.
Sure, Trump did a lot of stuff, and much that he really shouldn't have done. Your problem is that none of it was "insurrection".
You could even argue that some of it was election fraud, I suppose. But election fraud and insurrection are distinct offenses, and only the latter disqualifies you from being President.
Thought experiment: What is Trump was successful and he was able to get Pence to throw out EC votes and replace them with the fake EC votes? Would that be an insurrection? An auto-coup?
No, assuming he was successful, he'd have had the majority of Congress declaring him President, in a presumptively lawful exercise the Court would refuse to review.
The Constitution does not empower Congress to declare anyone president unless no one candidate got the majority of the votes (which was not the case in 2020). The VP and Congress no nothing but count the votes.
How is violating the Constitution legal?
The Constitution doesn't empower Congress to do a lot of things the courts let them do anyway. See the Enrolled Bill doctrine, for instance. I'm saying that, if his scheme had worked, he would have had the majority of Congress saying he was President, and under that circumstance, the Supreme court would not have been interested in disputing the matter.
Thats your personal interpretation.
Obviously Congress' role is just not some formalism or ceremony.
That maybe what it has become in practice, but not what's in the Constitution
Really? Then it should be easy for you to quote the Constitution to support your statement.
No, actually I think their role in counting the EC votes IS purely ministerial, and they only get to exercise discretion if nobody gets a majority.
I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect the Court to see it that way, because insane deference to Congress is a tacit qualification to be on the Supreme court.
No, the court has been eager to overturn laws from Congress. The insane deference is to Trump and the Republicans.
Eager? Federal laws overturned are as rare as hen's teeth. It's state laws that get routinely overturned.
Given that there are more state laws than federal, this is not too surprising.
As to the absolute rarity I’m not at all sure that’s true.
Then the country would ponder the idiocy in progress, and reverse it, arresting them as needed. Then the next day people would wonder what was on Survivor.
Golly! What if some idiots did that? I guess 350 million people will sit back and say, gosh, I guess that's that!
The facetious nature of the presentation is your bag, baby! You've used it in many initiatives to git 'im!
None of this should be done, but playing an asinine game your disasterbation is somehow an honest concern, on top of years of many initiatives to target your opponent is, well, step away from the Constitution.
The "country" would arrest them? How does "the country" arrest anybody, while the legal system is saying they're good to go?
Not a trap. Bad things, and things you (and I) don't like, are not crimes.
No one gets to arbitrarily define insurrection, absent any controlling law. Trying to make up a common law definition after the fact is not due process or the rule of law. No matter how much you toobin Section 3 as being "self-executing".
Colorado doesn't get to claim jurisdiction, because it would have been insurrection if he had committed these acts in our state, according to our legal system. Not how the law works.
Fraud is a crime. As is using intimidation or threats against election officials. Pence messing with the EC vote is illegal.
Fraud is a crime, so Molly should be locked up for fraudulently portraying itself as a rational human being.
But lots of things are illegal without being insurrection. That’s the point being made here, by Prof. Blackman, Smith, MaddogEngineer, and others.
The Colorado courts might have gotten it right -- for a non-criminal provision particularly -- but Jack Smith had to rely on something that would be accepted in a criminal case by SCOTUS regarding Trump in a historical case. It made sense to use more of a sure thing.
Right. Charging insurrection, even assuming conviction by the jury, would have introduced a First Amendment issue under Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969), into the case. That issue, frankly, is difficult and posed a much greater likelihood of reversal than the offenses which were charged.
Jack Smith wanted to try the case only once.
Even if you grant that that conduct could constitute insurrection if aimed at taking over the government (which is far from clear to me), Trump was still the sitting president for that period, leaving objection three in place. Given the nature of the contemplated prosecution, I have trouble seeing how being conservative on charging decisions (especially those that wouldn’t seem to affect Trump’s exposure) was a “trap”.
"The Colorado trial court, and the Colorado Supreme Court found that Trump personally engaged in insurrection."
Isn't that because they construed non-violent actions such as the fake elector scheme to be "insurrection"? Also, "by acting overtly and voluntarily with the intent of aiding or furthering the insurrectionists' common unlawful purpose."
Doesn't this get the direction of causality backwards? Trump acted overtly and voluntarily to dispute the election outcome, and then the Proud Boys arguably committed insurrection, (Though they conspicuously were not charged with it.) in support of Trump.
But if I do something legal, starting a charity, say, and somebody struck by the importance of my cause robs a bank to contribute, I am not constructively a bank robber unless I somehow directed them to do it. Which comes back to the whole Brandenberg issue with claiming Trump incited anything unlawful.
"The Office determined that there were reasonable arguments to be made that Mr. Trump's Ellipse Speech incited the violence at the Capitol on January 6"
I'm wondering how you incite on January 6th violence somebody has been tried and convicted for planning the previous year. Using a time machine?
Doesn't this get the direction of causality backwards?
Ironically, that's essentially how Fulton County does their RICO cases.
You wonder about many things because you're you refuse to actually read the evidence available to you.
Trump's role regarding January 6, 2021 began long before that date, which you've been told at least a hundred times by now, but you keep ignoring it because you're a dishonest fuck who won't let evidence get in the way of what you think you know.
The relevant question immediately before us is his role in the violence that day, and so far as the evidence goes, nothing he did satisfies the Brandenburg test.
You don't get to "insurrection" without violence, and nothing that satisfies Brandenburg connects him with the violence, and hence "insurrection".
"The relevant question immediately before us is his role in the violence that day, and so far as the evidence goes, nothing he did satisfies the Brandenburg test."
No, it is not, because his actions were not limited to January 6th. You've been told this now at least 101 times, but you keep ignoring it because you're a dishonest fuck who won't let evidence get in the way of what you think you know.
I know his actions were not limited to January 6th. His actions prior to January 6th were too remote from the violence that day to constitute incitement of it under law, you'd have to demonstrate he actually directed it, and nobody has.
It was never an insurrection, it was a riot.
Not to worry, you can spend the next 4 years bleating helplessly from the sidelines. 😉
You are quite literally a proud MAGA member, which is purely a cult of personality honoring a felon, a rapist, a racist, a fraud, a liar and a con-man.
Not that you're capable of any self-awareness, but I would suggest that you avoid the laughable mistake of implying that anyone is a sheep unless you are speaking about yourself.
Keep bleating like a helpless sheep. It is amusing to me.
I'm sure it is. The retard is always the one who stops laughing last.
What exactly do you think you are doing and supporting?
Also, several people were interested in your defense of this comment:
https://reason.com/volokh/2025/01/14/special-counsel-david-weiss-responds-to-president-bidens-attacks-on-hunter-biden-prosecution/?comments=true#comment-10868568
You came back to the thread several hours later for responses to other comments, but somehow you ran away like a cowardly cuck from that one.
No. That's not how it works. We don't ask "Is this individual 'action' an insurrection?" We ask if there was an insurrection, and if so, whether those individual actions were part of it.
First, nobody got charged with an insurrection, so the case for their being one is hardly open and shut.
Second, it takes more than independently doing something vaguely related to a crime to be part of a crime.
You go to the bank to persuade the bank to loan you some money, perhaps money you want to spend on your campaign. Maybe you plan on getting the loan under false pretenses, even.
Somebody else robs the bank while you're there, with the idea that they can use the funds to advance your campaign.
You're not part of the bank robbery, unless it can be established that you had directed the robbery, or at least been part of a group planning it.
Also, they took judicial notice of the findings of Nancy Pelosi’s hand picked J6 committee. Which they should have rejected as hearsay. Adding two token Republicans, over the objections of the House Republicans doesn’t make the report any more credible or authoritative. It was a highly political document, and lacked any indication of reliability.
"Also, they took judicial notice of the findings of Nancy Pelosi’s hand picked J6 committee. Which they should have rejected as hearsay."
Wrong. Under Rule 803(8)(C) of the Colorado Rules of Evidence, factual findings resulting from an investigation made pursuant to authority granted by law are not excluded by the hearsay rule in civil actions and proceedings and against the Government in criminal cases.
Fed.R.Evid. 803(8) is similar, so the findings of the House January 6 Committee would not have been admissible against the defendant in a criminal case.
I'm wondering how you incite on January 6th violence somebody has been tried and convicted for planning the previous year. Using a time machine?
Planning is not doing.
If you and I plan to beat John up we have not yet beaten John. We may or may not carry out our plan. But suppose James, a friend of ours, comes along and starts telling us what an asshole John is, and that he really deserves a beating, and so on. This tirade convinces us that we should go ahead, and we do, and while James does not participate, he observes happily and does nothing to stop it.
Is it reasonable to say that James incited the act?
No, not really, even given your details that don't actually match what happened.
Yes, yes really.
No, not really, unless the egging on is immediate enough to pass the Brandenburg test. Which was not the case for Trump and the Capitol riot.
The question was not, "Could this act be criminally punished?" The question was "Is it reasonable to say that James incited the act?"
If you want to say, "He figuratively incited it in a manner lacking all legal significance" I could hardly argue with that.
There absolutely is a clear definition for an insurrection currently in federal law.
Nothing Trump did met that definition. Which is actually why Smith never charged him.
As those of us who do not have derangement syndrome have been saying since January 7, 2017.
Which is why it was legally offensive that Colorado tried to claim Trump's actions were. Under what legal definition? The opposite of the rule of law, because we say so, because we don't like him and bad things should be legally disqualifying.
Yes, it was all a Trump Derangement Syndrome talking point. Time to move on.
There is no definition of any sort of insurrection currently in federal law. There is indeed a statute that criminalizes insurrection, but it does not define it.
The criminal statute definition sounds an awful lot like the Constitution's treason definition, minus the evidentiary threshold requirements (2 witnesses, confession in open court).
Again, the problem isn't the inadequate definition, because it is not inadequate (think John Brown at Harper's Ferry). It's that the statute does not allow a prosecutor to charge someone who inspired others to act. Yes, you actually have to engage in violence with a specific purporse. And even if it did try, it would probably incoveniently bump up against Brandeburg v Ohio. with respect to Trump. Because no one has uncovered evidence he ordered the Code Red.
What statute are you referring to?
There. Is. No. Criminal. Statute. Definition.
Here's the entirety of the federal criminal statute on insurrection (18 U.S.C. § 2383):
That's it. It's a common English word and Congress did not feel the need to define it.
Yes, that's it. That's a definition. It's defined. "incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws therefore, or gives aid or comfort thereto". Reminds me of what Harry Truman said: “I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell.”
As I said above, the issue some are having, is that that statutory definition doesn't include anything Trump did. Especially in light of Brandenburg v Ohio, re:incite. Also because no one else was charged with insurrection. That's why some are claiming the definition is insufficient. Because they wanted to get him. The walls are closing in!
And like I said, it mirrors the treason definition. Insurrection is treason lite. Which is why it should rarely be charged, and when it is, should be blazingly obvious. Something like John Brown's raid on Harpers Ferry (yes, he was not charged federally, but was charged by Virginia with treason). We know what a rebellion looks like, because America has seen several: Shay's, Whiskey, secession. If the bar were as low as The Resistance™ would like it to be, for January 6 to qualify as an insurrection, then pretty much every riot related to a political cause could be charged as an insurrection.
(I have never liked how MAGA threw around accusations of "treason" from Trump 1, when someone in government did something disloyal to undermine him. Not everything you don't like is treason, or insurrection.)
I don’t mean this disrespectfully, but are you sure you understand what a definition is? That statute says what it’s illegal to do with respect to an insurrection; it doesn’t say anything about what an insurrection is in the first place.
Insurrection is a legal term of art. With apologizes to Potter Stewart, you know it when you see it. Which is why all those Civil War rebels were disqualified, uncontroversially so. Nobody had any problem understanding that what they had done qualified as insurrection. Jack Smith's problem is that what Trump did was nothing like that.
Earlier I talked about Colorado trying to expand a common law definition of insurrection, trying to encompass behavior that was not insurrectiony. Can't do that legitimately if the offense does not even happen in your jurisdiction.
If at some point, Congress (or the states) want to more particularly define "insurrection", they are of course free to do that.
While it's not in the criminal statute, the federal Insurrection Act certainly talks about behaviors/conditions that are insurrectiony.
Here's how the 2016 amended 10 USC 13 §252 puts it for the president to invoke the Insurrection Act:
Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion.
Seems a pretty good definition of an insurrection. A lesser/domestic version of levying war (treason) while not necessarily doing so with an organized army. Implicit in that is duration, others may dispute that. Perhaps most noteworthy, essentially what Abraham Lincoln did in prosecuting the Civil War.
It seems reasonable that when charging someone with insurrection, an accused should also be able to be charged with an underlying predicate act (planning/supplies/communication/violence) in support of the alleged insurrection. AFAIK, nothing else in Smith's indictment did that. I know The Resistance™ believes pursuing the steal election legal/political strategy qualifies, but it does not.
If you guys want to argue that no one can be legitimately charged with insurrection, because the statute lacks a workable definition, I'm fine with that too. Then we can all stop debating whether Trump was guilty of insurrection and should have been disqualified.
It seems more likely you have your own preferred definition to require that outcome. Except that is definitely not how due process and the rule of law works.
It is not. It is an ordinary English word carrying its ordinary English meaning; that's what the failure to define it — and contrary to what you said, the statute doesn't define it — means.
Why would you think it's meaning has changed in one or two hundred years? Only because it's convenient for your argument. I'm an original public meaning textualist, so I disagree that it can drift to become unknowable. But you do you.
Next you're going to tell me "levying war" is similarly inaccessible without further statutory definition, despite it being part of the constitutional definition of treason. Words still mean things. Earlier I referred to insurrection as "treason lite", because an insurrection has overlap with treason, but with a less onerous evidentiary threshold. John Brown was executed for treason against Virginia. While one can commit treason without also committing insurrection, I have a difficult time imagining an insurrection that was not also treasonous.
I keep quoting the statute because the text around it anchors a definition of insurrection. I gave you the text of the Insurrection Act which provides more context.
I'll repeat your (and Smith's) actual problem: insurrection as fairly understood, and described in the statute context, does not cover any Donald Trump action regarding January 6. It's not simply a burden proof threshold problem. Maybe you want to use his "fight like hell" as proof he ordered the Code Red, but the statute is too sparse to be stretched like that. At least Smith had enough integrity to implicitly acknowledge that.
"Engages in insurrection" is not a definition of insurrection.
A general statement.
It would be harder to prove beyond a reasonable doubt for criminal cases that Trump was guilty of "insurrection" than to meet the constitutional requirement for disqualification regarding the non-criminal 14A, sec. 3 standard for insurrection.
FWIW, the historical analysis (by Will Baude and others) of that clause includes case studies of insurrection which entails some of the stuff alleged in the Trump indictment.
Using Will Baude as a reliable source on 14A insurrection clause is kinda dumb.
According to the Supreme court, the constitutional requirement for disqualification is set by Congress by enabling legislation, and the federal insurrection statute is the only current enabling legislation.
Congress could enact a non-criminal standard. Did originally, in fact. It's just that they repealed it about 80 years ago.
No such events happened. Moreover, the entire framing is wrongheaded; the power to enforce the 14th amendment is not the power to repeal it. Congress has no authority to nullify the disqualification clause by not passing (or repealing) a law. (Except, of course, through the method actually specified by the 14th amendment: a 2/3rds vote of each house of Congress. Bu that removes the disqualification for specific people; it doesn't repeal the disqualification clause itself.)
You are fighting an uphill battle there. § 5 providing that Congress may enforce the rest of the 14th Amdt is strong indication that the intent was for the various sections not to be self executing.
It isn't even weak indication of such. On the other hand, the fact that (a) the disqualification clause was treated as self-executing immediately after it was passed is incredibly strong indication that the intent was for it to be self-executing; and (b) the other provisions of the 14th amendment were and always have been and continue to be treated as self-executing is incredibly strong indication that the intent was for it to be self-executing.
These views were rejected 9-0 by SCOTUS.
The enforcement act of 1870.
"Sections 14 and 15 enforce section three of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, by instructing federal prosecutors to use a writ of quo warranto to remove people from government offices who were disqualified by that amendment. Reasons for such disqualification include insurrection or rebellion against the United States; holding office contrary to such disqualification became a misdemeanor. The Enforcement Act's quo warranto provisions were repealed in 1948. However, even after that repeal, there remained a federal statute initially contained in the Confiscation Act of 1862 which made insurrection a federal crime, and disqualified insurrectionists from federal offices."
Trying to choose a less rigorous standard to "get" somebody is not the rule of law.
Smith's problem was not that being able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, it was that nothing Trump did qualifies under ANY definition of insurrection.
The Section 3 standard of obviousness, only applicable in the aftermath of Civil War, was being captured/paroled while serving in a rebel army under arms, or taking an oath of allegiance to a rebel government. Records of both those actions existed for many, disqualifying them without any criminal trial. That is not a lesser non-criminal standard than a reasonable doubt. Those are uncontestable facts.
I don't know what "get" is supposed to mean but the rule of law includes justifiably applying legal standards to people up to and including Art. II officials.
I don't agree with the second paragraph. People have in-depth covered this. I won't try to summarize their words in a comment.
I also am not sure why "standard of obviousness" is the test being cited but whatever that means it is not the same thing as "beyond a reasonable doubt" as used in criminal prosecutions. That is a very high test & was not used when the provision was applied.
I think the Civil war era standard wasn't so much "obviousness" as Thucydides' “The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."; The Union had just won a war, and anybody who didn't like it could volunteer to face a firing squad if they preferred.
That's always been the problem with the attempt to apply Civil war era precedents in the modern era: They're often stuff that the Union could only get away with because they'd just won a war, and where's the war?
Yes, the Civil War is over. Reconstruction is over. We need to repeal all those laws.
There's nothing to repeal, we're just talking about general precedents, like disqualifying people for insurrection without allowing them trials.
The Civil War era standard was obvious, because it was obvious who was on the losing side: captured/paroled soldiers in a rebel army, or those who swore an oath and served in a rebel government. This isn't hard. We do not have anything like that today, because we are not experiencing a civil war. Not because our legal precedents have evolved.
There may have been others arguably disqualified after the Civil War whose disqualification may have been disputable. I'm not talking about those possible cases. We have no obvious disqualifications today like those who fought with the Army of Northern Virginia. No serious person of the time would deny their disqualification.
That is not how criminal law works. If a criminal conviction were required — it's not — "it's obvious" is not a substitute for such a conviction.
And, yet, your theory lost in the Supreme Court.
As many have been pointing out, Section 3 disqualification does not require a criminal conviction.
The point being, absent an actual civil war, and lacking some other civil procedure defined by Congress, a criminal conviction for insurrection is all we've got.
I keep pointing out the particular aftermath circumstances of our Civil War, because people at the time certainly understood what was disqualifying and why under Section 3. As there is no state of armed rebellion ongoing (and Jan 6 was not that), no non-criminal disqualifications are possible without an explicit statue from Congress.
I mean, that's the upshot of Trump v. Anderson, but there's nothing inherent about the 14th amendment that makes this so.
Not to rehash this debate from a year ago, but there is no civil procedure defined by Congress for excluding a president from a state ballot for any other reason — not because the president is too young, or not a natural born citizen, or not a long-enough resident of the U.S., or didn't get enough signatures in the first place, or served 2 terms as president already. In any of those contexts, the states are free to define their own procedures, and do. And routinely apply them.
"I mean, that's the upshot of Trump v. Anderson, but there's nothing inherent about the 14th amendment that makes this so."
Just as long as you ARE aware that the Supreme court disagrees with you about that.
Sigh. The ONLY way having engaged in insurrection is equivalent to the age qualification for president, is if, as I said above, a person was captured/paroled in a rebel army, or swore and oath and served in a rebel government. Those are facts which can be given judicial notice on other proceedings. It's why I keep pointing to this history.
Absent a criminal conviction (where evidence has been presented to support a conviction), or a congressionally defined procedure with non-criminal criteria for what constitutes insurrection, ascertaining whether Trump engaged in insurrection is not an objective fact.
Colorado attempted an ad hoc proceeding where there was no objective definition of insurrection over which to judge any "evidence" presented. It was an attempt to confirm a political judgment in a judicial venue. Even under a lower burden of proof (preponderance etc) NOTHING Trump did qualifies as such. (NB: I've never voted for the guy. I don't think he should be president.) This of course ignores that acts under discussion did not occur in Colorado, yet Colorado tried to claim jurisdiction to adjudicate them.
You guys keep starting with the premise that January 6 being an insurrection is an objective truth, that Trump was directly responsible for, and then you work backwards from there. It's impossible to rationally debate people who assume their own conclusions. If I thought the evidence supported Jan 6 was an insurrection, I'd be the first to demand Trump be disqualified.
Those are not in fact facts which can be given judicial notice.
Of course they are. They were US government (War Department) records. Just like a birth certificate.
In the aftermath of the Civil War, disqualification was self-enforced. Just like someone not meeting the age threshold, Confederate soldiers didn't attempt to run for office to which they had been disqualified.
I assume as Reconstruction went on, some did test their disqualification, which I guess is why Congress gave the military the authority in the occupied South to enforce Section 3 with the Military Reconstruction Acts of 1867.
You think that Congress passed the Military Reconstruction Act of 1867 to give the military the authority to enforce Section 3, which was not even ratified until 1868?
You don't think the Reconstruction legal situation was fluid?
Several times Congress passed laws first, then upon further consideration decided it needed constitutional authorization. That is how we got all of the 14th amendment. But a version of its language originated in the prior Civil Rights Act.
Unless you're going to argue that Section 3 was materially different than what preceded it in law, there was still little dispute at the time as to who was disqualified as having committed insurrection. Or rather I should state it as the military governors in the Southern military districts had little trouble figuring out who had been a Confederate official. A North Carolina sheriff, who had to swear an oath to support and defend the Confederate Constitution (clause copied verbatim the "original")? Disqualified, easy peasy.
I assume that the 1867 act's authorization remained in place
after the amendment's adoption, up through the 1870 adoption of the quo warranto procedure in the KKK Act.
I wonder when the John Eastman rehabilitation tour will begin around here. Same goes for Jeffrey “smart thermostats” Clark.
I wonder why Eastman et al. were not charged with federal felonies. The cases against them should have been much easier to prove.
Why do you think that is the case, John F Carr? = not charged with federal felonies
It's a mystery to me because the cases are so much easier to prove. Trump was a bystander during the fake electors plot, as distinguised from the contingent electors plot. The unindicted co-conspirators had the specific goal of sending fake electoral votes. They took steps that would make them liable for aiding, abetting, etc. under 18 USC 2 without proving a conspiracy. There was no need to tell the jury about sanctionable lawsuits and speeches and the unclear concept of conspiring to defraud the United States.
It's conceivable that convictions could have been obtained and upheld on appeal before January 20. Indictment in 2022, verdict in 2023, affirmed on appeal in 2024.
I strongly suspect that if Trump had not been elected to a second term, the co-conspirators identified in the D.C. indictment would have been indicted for the same conspiracy offenses sometime during 2025.
Yes. For those not following along— Eastman is “Co-Conspirator 2”
Just checking in: Trump will still be president next week, right?
All that time. All that effort. All that money.
Still going to be president.
Hey, at least they tried.
And, according to the Hallmark Channel, it's the journey that counts.
It does help when you have the SC and Aileen Cannon in your corner.
Wait, I thought he got away with insurrection because Jack couldn't charge him with insurrection because Jack sez he didn't have a legal definition of insurrection because he couldn't find one.
Also, I like saying insurrection.
Does that make me a Democrat?
That isn't to say that Smith had nothing to charge Trump with.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpqld79pxeqo
"But for Mr Trump's election [in 2024] and imminent return to the presidency, the office assessed that the admissible evidence was sufficient to obtain and sustain a conviction at trial."
A prosecutor said his evidence was good? Did not see that coming.
Enjoy the political motivated prosecutions the next 4 years.
A Republican prosecutor, note.
And clearly you think that politically motivated prosecutions are ok when carried out by the right people.
"Republican prosecutor, note. "
Smith is not a Republican best I can tell. His work history is Democratic appointments only. And the ICC!
"And clearly you think that politically motivated prosecutions are ok when carried out by the right people."'
Now I do!
You should have kept the lid on Pandora's Box but you did not.
So, he was just slow then?
Couldn't beat out the clock?
I guess you can add the concept of time to your list of people/things that were in Trump's corner.
Talk about lucky!
Or unlucky, in Jack's case (or lack thereof).
So, he was just slow then?
Couldn't beat out the clock?
Nope. Trump had assistance from the Supreme Court and Cannon, etc.
Somewhat more succinctly, "you should have seen the one that got away!"
Note that much of the media misreported this as Smith saying that Trump would've been convicted. But only Nostradamus can say that; Smith's actual claim — which the BBC took the novel approach of actually quoting him — was more modest.
I don't see a reason to get into a digression about "aid and comfort." Federal law punishes aiding, abetting, counseling, commanding, inducing, or procuring a crime, or causing another to commit a crime. 18 USC 2. Federal law punishes solicitation of a crime of violence. 18 USC 373.
If Trump intentionally caused the crowd to trespass in the Capitol he is liable for trespass. If Trump intentionally caused the crowd to insurrect he is liable for insurrection. If Trump asked the crowd to use illegal force he is liable for soliciting a crime of violence.
Smith didn't attempt to charge any of those either.
Well, yeah. Because Trump didn't do any of those, either.
Well, yeah, that would be why he didn't charge any of those.
Which only further reinforces how ridiculous it is that The Deranged insist Trump is guilty of insurrection, when Smith didn't charge (because he couldn't prove) Trump did any of the underlying actions that would make him culpable for an insurrection. Those things would survive Brandenburg v Ohio scrutiny.
Smith may have intended to use inducing or procuring liability for the crime of obstruction. At the time of the original indictment prosecutors considered the January 6 riot to be criminal obstruction of Congress. If Trump intentionally caused the riot Trump could be convicted too. The Supreme Court later ruled the riot probably was not obstruction. The obstruction charge against Trump remained because submitting false electoral votes fits within the traditional understanding of obstruction.
Not really. Submitting alternate electoral votes should be covered under the 1A right to petition. It's up to Congress to decide what votes are legitimate. It's only fraud/obstruction if those alternate votes were submitted with false signatures/seals. The original Electoral Count Act dealt with that ambiguity of competing state attestations, in light of the contested 1876 result.
The federal insurrection statute also covers giv[ing] aid and comfort” to an insurrection, which is not synonymous with aiding and abetting it, or soliciting it.
This has been a problem all along. Bureaucracies generally, and the law specifically, don’t deal well with novel events. We don’t have clear laws on what Trump did because he’s the first prez to fail to accept an election loss. Smith seems to have done a fair job of dealing with the situation within existing law.
"We don’t have clear laws on what Trump did because he’s the first prez to fail to accept an election loss. "
Not really. He's just the first one to fail to accept it that late in the process. Gore, (OK, Gore was not "prez", you got me there.) was still failing to accept his loss until December 13th, when the Supreme court stopped his "Keep recounting over and over until I win" scheme.
That's still pretty late in the game, and as the Court found, his scheme depended on unconstitutional behavior by elections officials, pretty darned close to "illegal".
Yes really. No other president or presidential candidate attempted to violently thwart an election that had already been decided. Gore applied courtroom challenges to ascertain who the winner was, and stopped immediately when a winner was declared. (Indeed, he stopped even before that; he stopped the moment that SCOTUS's ruling made the certification inevitable.)
As you recognize, Gore was not the sitting prez. The election was undecided until Dec 12 when SCOTUS decided the vote count in FL favored Bush 5-4. Upon which Gore gracefully conceded. The only thing approaching violence was the famous Brooks Brothers riot by Republicans. Not really the same thing at all, is it?
"The election was undecided until Dec 12"
Ah, no. The election was decided under Florida law by the end of the mandatory challenge period. It's just that Gore had some members of the state supreme court complicit in his scheme to violate Florida election law.
Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines
ConstitutionFlorida Law To Be.Area man passionate defender of right of courts to order laws violated, that's you.
Under Florida law, the statutory deadline for certifying the election result was November 14th. And on November 14th, the result WAS certified, pursuant to state law.
"Because it is my determination that no amendments for the official returns now on file with the Department of State are warranted, the State Elections Canvassing Commission, acting in its normal and usual manner, has certified the results of Tuesday's election in Florida, including the presidential election. Copies of that portion of the certification relating to the presidential election and the signature pages of the certification are also available."
So, no, the election was NOT "undecided until December 12". It was actually decided on November 14th, which was followed by a desperate legal attempt to overturn that decision.
I'm pretty agnostic about the 2000 results - before my time.
But it's prime Brett to be like 'As an objective layperson, I'm very sure this the decades old legal issue that made it to the US Supreme Court is a simple one.'
Looking at what ended up going down, it was a hard case. And the liberals who claim otherwise are as silly as Brett.
I think it's fair to say that, once the election result has been certified, the election has been decided. I'm pointing out that actually happened on November 14, and all of Gore's subsequent legal battles were an attempt to undo that.
You are incorrect. November 14 was the date that counties had to report their results to the state. Florida law at the time provided for two processes: a pre-report election protest, and a post-report election contest. (These were the terms used by Florida statutes.) To simplify, the first was essentially for a you-made-a-mistake-in-counting argument; the second was for a something-went-wrong-procedurally argument. November 26, not November 14, was when the Florida vote was certified by the Florida Secretary of State. But the Florida Supreme Court said that the election contest could continue.
And of course the electors did not actually cast their votes until December 14.
gV0R08:
True. It didn't help that he had to deal with a judge who was so in Trump's corner that a Trump-appointed appellate judge had to slap her down.
fail to accept an election loss
I'm not sure he even did this. As both sides facete back and forth, I still think they viewed it as a game, if one that got out of control.
Not sure what that says, other than same old game politicians have played forever, just bigger than usual. You work to build "common knowledge" fraud has happened, for use in the next election to motivate supporters. In this process, you do not actually believe fraud. It's House of Cards hardball.
You claim it's real, to get useful idiots flouncing around, their neurons a-surfeit with little positive strokes they are on to some deep truth, as planned.
I suspect there's another big reason neither Trump or anyone involved with Jan 6 was charged with insurrection, but Smith and Garland would never admit it.
The context of the insurrection clause of the 14th Amendment was the aftermath of the US Civil war, the most deadly conflict in this nation's history. If we water down the definition of insurrection to include riots, and especially charge politicians just for publicly agreeing with the goals of the rioters, then ultimately a HELL of a lot more politicians in the Democratic party than the GOP would be likewise charged with the crime of insurrection.
Trump did not "just publicly agree with the goals of the rioters" & the terms do not just include something the level of the Civil War.
There were convictions for seditious conspiracy. The term does have connections with the Civil War and its aftermath.
In order to win a seditious conspiracy case, prosecutors have to prove that two or more people conspired to “overthrow, put down or to destroy by force” the U.S. government or bring war against it, or that they plotted to use force to oppose the authority of the government or to block the execution of a law.
https://apnews.com/article/proud-boys-seditious-conspiracy-explained-207f7ca08d7c30d3cb28127eb9992bca
"Trump did not "just publicly agree with the goals of the rioters""
The rioters agreeing with Trump's goals was not remotely enough to make Trump guilty of conspiring with them.
Seditious conspiracy is a different crime and not disqualifying in the 14th. And that article is about the Proud Boys, not Trump.
More importantly, look at the word "or" there, it's very relevant. As in "or to block the execution of a law."
That's what the Proud Boys were actually charged with in their indictment. The sedition wasn't to bring war, overthrow the govt, etc but simply interfering with lawmakers, which is something that pretty much every riot does. Code Pink used to regularly try to shout down Congress, yet they were never charged with sedition. But now that the precedent is there, in the future they could be.
The first sentence of the comment I replied to said:
I suspect there's another big reason neither Trump or anyone involved with Jan 6 was charged with insurrection, but Smith and Garland would never admit it.
Not just Trump. It also went into how allegedly trivial the reach of the argument was and how it was far from what the Civil War was concerned about etc. Sedition isn't trivial etc.
Sedition is not akin to "every riot." The article is linked to help show that sedition is a particularly serious crime. Yes, Code Pink et. al. is not charged with sedition. It is particularly serious.
(It has an up to 20 years sentence -- https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384)
Sedition and insurrection historically have also included interference with government proceedings among other things. It wasn't applied in minor cases. The passage of presidential power with all that was entailed in their convictions, however, was not trivial. The details can be found in their indictments.
I would not have been terribly troubled if the Proud Boys had been charged with insurrection. I just object to claiming that Trump was a party to their crimes.
Yes, they even got convictions of people who were not even at the Capitol on Jan. 6.
Even if you grant that a lot more Democrats are guilty of insurrection under that definition (a point which I expect to attract some controversy), I swear no reason whatsoever to think that Smith or anyone else in this decision subjectively believe that to be the case.
So yeah, no.
How about a post on the overwhelming evidence presented in the report that Trump attempted to steal the election?
Attempting to steal the election isn't a 14th amendment Section 3 disqualifying offense. Since the goal of the whole exercise was to keep Trump from becoming President again even if the voters wanted him to be, it doesn't attract a lot of attention.
Attempting to steal an election should 1) be an impeachable offense leading to conviction and disqualification by the Senate, and 2) in any rational world, the voters would dump the perpetrator even absent disqualification by the Senate.
Sure, but notice that the Senate kept acquitting him?
They were cowards who did not want to end up like Liz Cheney.
Democracy actually depends on legislators being cowards who don't want to be kicked out of office by their constituents. It's not a bad thing, it's a necessary functional feature of democracy.
When elected officials yield to voters who have reacted to outright lies, democracy does not work.
On the contrary, when elected officials DON'T yield to voters, that's when democracy stops working. If the elected officials get to decide which voter opinions matter, it's all over, they're in command, not the voters.
You slid from being fed lies to voter opinions.
Hmmmmm
You think voter opinions don't count if you decide they were based on lies?
And who gets to decide which lies matter?
Trumps lies? Biden's lies? Obama's lies?
Yes, TiP, you don't believe in truth; it's all opinion.
Except for about trans people.
Obama and Biden lied about policy (as every politician does). Trump lied about a fundamental pillar of democracy.
So our betters - like yourself of course - must decide for us because you say democracy does not work?
Hard pass, Josh R.
Two years, 50MM dollars....and bupkis.
The betters is any thinking person.
Yeah Josh R, 77MM+ people are just unthinking robots. Ok.
Please keep thinking like that. And be vocal about it, too. Especially in 2028.
Not all 77M. Just those (probably about 2/3 of them) who believe Trump did not try to steal the election. Which group are you in?
In the rational world of 1974, Nixon was kicked out of town on a rail. In our irrational world of 2025, he gets away with it.
"Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion."
Burke lost that election.
He did not. He did lose re-election 6 years later, though.
Liz Cheney moved on to be one of the main endorsers of Kamala Harris!
You enthusiastically talked about how impeachment is a political act back when it was on the table.
How would acquittal not be the same?
Be consistent!
I'm not sure what you think saying acquittal is a political matter implies. The fact is, he was acquitted, and so isn't subject to any of the legal consequences of conviction.
It doesn't matter if you think they'd have convicted if they weren't afraid of the voters. Democrats were equally afraid of their voters if they voted to acquit!
You are offering it as factual evidence.
It isn’t.
"You are offering it as factual evidence."
No he's not.
Josh R - "Attempting to steal an election should 1) be an impeachable offense leading to conviction and disqualification by the Senate, and 2) in any rational world, the voters would dump the perpetrator even absent disqualification by the Senate.
Brett Bellmore - "Sure, but notice that the Senate kept acquitting him?"
That's Brett, saying that Trump didn't attempt to steal an election because the Senate acquitted him.
For legal purposes, acquittal establishes that the alleged perpetrator didn't commit the crime, regardless of what you think of the jury's motivations for acquitting, regardless of whether you think they actually did it.
Sure, for yelling at the clouds purposes you can continue to assert guilt, you just don't get to impose the legal consequences of conviction, like, oh, disqualification from office.
Democrats spent most of 4 years desperately trying to impose the legal consequences of Trump being successfully convicted during his impeachments, despite the fact of his acquittals. They had only one legal route to doing that, convicting him of insurrection. They never tried that, because any competent prosecutor could see it was a losing case.
Not having tried it, of course, you can continue to imagine that it would have been an open and shut conviction. Enjoy your fantasies, that's all they are.
An impeachment trial is not a criminal proceeding, and does not in fact establish that the alleged perpetrator didn't commit the crime.
Once more: under the 14th amendment disqualification from office is the legal consequence of being involved in an insurrection, not the legal consequence of conviction.
And, once again, that argument lost at the Supreme court, 9-0.
You're incorrect. All nine justices held that Colorado couldn't disqualify Trump, but they did not agree on the reasoning. (Indeed, from memory, exactly none of them said that the 14th amendment requires a conviction.)
I guess, in as much as it was a per curium decision, none of their names were technically on it.
"The Constitution empowers Congress to prescribe how
those determinations should be made. The relevant provision is Section 5, which enables Congress, subject of course to judicial review, to pass “appropriate legislation” to “enforce” the Fourteenth Amendment. "
The majority identified precisely one instance of such "appropriate legislation": The 1870 Enforcement act. It provided 2 means for enforcement: Conviction for insurrection, and a federal writ of quo warranto.
The latter was repealed in 1948.
Ergo, the only current constitutionally permissible enforcement mechanism requires a conviction, and the Court's majority identified that current permissible enforcement mechanism.
Right, when qualified by "current" (Congress can enact other enabling legislation). But that was a 5-4 vote (Barrett, Jackson, Sotomayor and Kagan explicitly wrote that no decision should have been made on whether 14.3 is self-executing) and applies onlt to federal positions.
The Court did not hold 9-0 that conviction of a crime is required for disqualification under the 14th Amendment.
The only 9-0 holdings were the states 1) on their own can enforce 14.3 for state and local offices and 2) cannot enforce 14.3 as applied to the presidency.
There were four votes to not decide whether 14.3 as applied to the presidency is self-executing, implying it may be permissible for federal courts to judicate 14.3 cases absent Congressional implementing legislation. And even the five votes for 14.3 not being self-executing did not rule out the possibility of Congress passing implementing legislation that does not require a criminal conviction.
"And even the five votes for 14.3 not being self-executing did not rule out the possibility of Congress passing implementing legislation that does not require a criminal conviction."
I should hope not, considering that Congress had enacted a civil procedure back in 1870. It's just that it was repealed in 1948.
I suppose they could have reenacted it in the last several years, in which case we'd be having an interesting argument about whether the ex post facto clause applies to civil quo warranto actions.
But they didn't, I suspect because the Democrats knew only too well how easily such a thing could be turned against them by a Republican administration.
Our world is rational, Trump, warts and all, is just a better choice than Harris.
We shall see. I sure hope you're right.
Trump expressing possible disinterest in helping California after our disaster does not inspire much confidence in his desire to lead all of America. But at least we can be confident that he will not kill hundreds of thousands of innocent Americans, as he did with his massive Covid fuck-up.
Maybe he learned from his past mistakes, and will be a great president in his second term. (But, surely, you have the integrity to admit that it did not fill you with confidence when he nominated--in addition to some very qualified people--really unqualified and/or hugely ethically-challenged people to some of the most important and sensitive positions in all of government. Doesn't mean his second term won't be fantastic. But what a pathetic beginning, no?)
I like most of Trump's appointments. I can do without RFK but its HHS, a mainly spend money job, so it doesn't matter much. Can't think of any unqualified and/or hugely ethically-challenged appointments, must be your imagination..
I think what happened on January 6th falls within the scope of a "riot" more than an "insurrection" and the fact that Trump was never even charged with let alone convicted of an "insurrection" should have put an end to any attempt to disqualify him under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment.
I also think he should have been charged with incitement to riot as well as for the fake electors scheme and if the Biden administration hadn't been trying to milk January 6th for maximum political advantage, they wouldn't have waited until after the 2022 midterms to appoint Jack Smith and would have been charging him early on - just like they did the actual January 6th rioters.
But he couldn't be convicted of incitement to riot, because nothing he he did satisfied the Brandenburg test.
He used perfectly ordinary political rhetoric, and closed with a command to be peaceful.
Sir, you're doing the Lord's work but you will never convince them that Trump isn't guilty of something that's worse than Pearl Harbor and 911 rolled into one and multiplied by a thousand.
If those Trump-haters really believed that, then they should have been rioting on this Jan. 6, My guess is that they all know, deep down, that Trump is much more competent than Harris.
I've been told it's not just worse than Pearl Harbor or 911, it's as bad as the Civil War. Never mind that the latter killed 4% of the men in the US, equivalent to 7 million with today's population.
Roger and DJK,
It's actually instructive to see your (pro-Trump) TDS on display. No one is saying that the failed attempt by Trump to steal the 2020 election was worse than Pearl Harbor or 9/11. Those are just the imaginary voices that are screaming inside your heads. I think a lot of people were and are saying that what Trump did was awful, and that IF HE HAD SUCCEEDED in somehow stealing this election, after his massive (Electoral College) loss, it would have/could have had disastrous effects on our country...and those could have been just as bad as the aftereffects of Pearl Harbor or 9/11.
A subtle, but important, difference, that I fear has flown well over your head(s).
Blackman is going after Smith, and Baude/Paulsen, and occasionally Trump seems to catch a stray.
I'm much more interested in this one practitioner's opinion than I am why he thought to delay so long on what he decided to charge.
Blackman is being disingenuous in trying to link this to the A14 disqualification issue. Smith is not talking about whether Trump engaged in insurrection. Smith is talking about whether Trump could be successfully criminally prosecuted for insurrection. That is an entirely different question from disqualification. We rightly make it really hard to put people in jail; that separate from whether there can be non-criminal consequences for someone's actions.
David, what prosecutor ever says (after blowing 50 mil)....Hey, you know what, I don't think I can convict this guy? Thanks for the memories.
Smith could not say anything other than: I got the goods and I can convict.
The American people passed judgment on this last November.
Special counsels do.
Illegally appointed clowns do. And crazy trolls back them up because, well, they’re deranged, and also lack intellectual integrity. Actually, if I had to hazard a guess, I’d say you were challenged in the integrity department in all aspects of your life, crazy Dave.
Wait till you hear about this Robert Hur guy!
Did he blow 50 mil?
We also make it really hard for state officials to meddle in federal elections based on absurd constitutional theories. Sorry you lost unanimously on that question.
There was no "federal election." Colorado disqualified Trump from being on the state's primary ballot for state delegates to a private party convention.
And "people who engage in insurrection are disqualified" is not really an "absurd constitutional theory" so much as it is black letter constitutional law.
Nope. § 3 isn’t self executing. You need a trial to satisfy Due Process. There wasn’t any in the CO case.
Due process requires a hearing, not necessarily a trial. And there was indeed one in the Colorado case.
And the Supreme court said you were wrong about that, in the context of disqualification. 9-0.
"Nope. § 3 isn’t self executing. You need a trial to satisfy Due Process. There wasn’t any in the CO case."
Is that as true as everything else you have said, Bruce?
The District Court in Colorado held a five day, full blown bench trial, which afforded Donald Trump beaucoup due process.
And here we have the difference between 'process' and 'due process' on display. .
You do love to baselessly assert what process Trump is due based on your personal vibes.
It's not a very effective posting tactic, but you do have persistence on your side.
The "absurd constitutional theory" is the Will Baude theory that led to the nonsense in Colorado.
They’re certainly not the same question, and they could certainly have different answers, but I think they’re clearly related. In particular, the legal (as opposed to factual) concerns noted in the report seem like they’d be relevant to consider in the disqualification context as well.
Well, yes, they're related — much as the question of whether OJ murdered Nicole Brown is related to the question of whether he wrongfully caused her death. But they're separate inquiries.
Another replay of Russia collusion. Trump may not have been criminally guilty, but that is only be because the evidentiary threshold was too high to allow for proving. Under a less rigorous standard, we can still say he was.
The problem with Colorado's judicial finding was that it made its own subjective redefinition of insurrection, to blame Trump for bad things he was not responsible for yet allegedly benefited from, so that makes him culpable. The opposite of the rule of law, yet justified by The Resistance™ because Section 3 grants an unrestricted authority to disqualify, unencumbered from any other constitutional niceties.
What a waste.
It's not unreasonable to expect that people who supported Trump's attempt to overturn a legitimate election would like to see no charges filed against him.
Nor is it unreasonable to expect that Trump supporters will defend all his actions, and will place him above the law because his being president is more important than his being convicted.
I just wish that they could be honest about their principles, and not lie and pretend that Trump is an innocent victim of lawfare.
Wishing that Trump supporters would be honest about anything is asking the unreasonable.
If they valued truth, they wouldn't support Trump.
2024: The year when character and integrity died. R.I.P.
Some of us deny that Trump attempted to overturn a legitimate election.
Some people are batshit crazy (Smith's evidence That Trump attempted to steal the election is overwhelming).
Which part do you deny, the overthrow attempt or the legitimacy?
Overturn an illegitimate election (at least in some of the states).
I have never voted for Trump, and opposed his stolen election campaign after the 2020 election. He lost the election, period.
I am vehemently against prosecuting him for all of that and trying to disqualify him for insurrection. Not because I like Trump (I do not), but because such lawfare is corrosive to the rule of law.
The lawfare was pursued because the Senate dropped the ball. As a result without lawfare, Trump escapes culpability for his conduct.
Again I deny your premise that any Trump culpability was required to be punished. Does not justify illegitimate lawfare, to get him no matter what.
Not all bad things are illegal. We didn't need the Senate action in 2021, the American people just had their own chance to weigh in. I disagree with their decision, (never voted for Trump). But I strenuously disagree with the presumption that he needed to be previously disqualified somehow (Section 3, impeachment conviction) so that the American electorate would not reach the "wrong" verdict.
Maybe if Biden/Harris hadn't sucked so bad, this would not have happened. They lost me with the Afghanistan debacle (the adults were not back in charge). I can only imagine who else they lost and why along the way these last 4 years.
(I think the House should have impeached for his inaction as the riot unfolded, the one arguably provable fact. But that would not have satisfied The Resistance™ which wanted to punish him for pursuing the stolen election nonsense, most all of which was not a crime.)
Guys, give it up. It's ancient history.
Give up what? Keeping Trump out of office and putting him prison? Of course. Smith himself has given up. But, telling the truth for the historical record. No, we are not giving up.
Where do you stand, particularly in light of Smith's overwhelming evidence? Did Trump try to steal the election?
"an insurrection typically involves overthrowing a sitting government, rather than maintaining power"
"Typically" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this sentence. I can't get over that my tax dollars paid to produce this "report." Good riddance.