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Second Amendment Roundup: Circuit Conflict in Felon Gun Ban Cases
Congress should reinstate ATF appropriations for removal of disabilities.
On December 23, the Third Circuit en banc handed Bryan Range an early Christmas present by ruling that despite his decades-old conviction for a false statement to obtain food stamps in violation of Pennsylvania law, he "remains among 'the people' protected by the Second Amendment." Further, "the Government did not carry its burden of showing that the principles underlying our Nation's history and tradition of firearm regulation support disarming Range…."
The case is Range v. Attorney General. After the Supreme Court in Bruen reinforced the text-history approach to deciding Second Amendment cases, in 2023 the Third Circuit had reached that same result. However, after deciding Rahimi, the Supreme Court granted Merrick Garland's cert petition, vacated the judgment, and remanded the case for further consideration in light of Rahimi.
In a decision by Judge Thomas Hardiman, the majority again ruled in favor of Range. It reasoned, first, that the criminal histories of the parties were not at issue in the Supreme Court's previous civil cases – Heller, McDonald, and Bruen – with their dicta about "law-abiding" persons having the right to bear arms. Second, "the people" also appears in the First and Fourth Amendments, and felons are included. Third, certain groups may be stripped of Second Amendment rights, but limits exist. And fourth, persons may not be deprived of Second Amendment rights because they are not "responsible."
The Range court continued that "today, felonies include a wide swath of crimes, some of which seem minor," and that legislatures should not have "unreviewable power to manipulate the Second Amendment by choosing a label." The first federal ban on firearm receipt by felons and the father to today's felon gun ban, 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1), was passed in 1961, far short of the requirement that historical precedents be "longstanding." In a passage sure to encourage challenges to other parts of § 922(g), the court stated: "Nor are we convinced by the 1920s and 1930s state statutes banning firearm possession by felons, or the 1960s laws disarming drug addicts and drug users, 1980s laws disarming persons unlawfully present in the United States and persons dishonorably discharged from the armed forces, or 1990s laws disarming domestic violence misdemeanants."
While "Rahimi did bless disarming (at least temporarily) physically dangerous people," the court concluded that there was "no evidence that he [Range] poses a physical danger to others or that food-stamp fraud is closely associated with physical danger." Range was thus eligible under the Second Amendment to receive and possess firearms.
There were four concurring opinions in Range, all of which deserve careful study. Judge Paul Matey focused on the classical sources, beginning with Cicero, that recognized the fundamental right to bear arms for self-defense. He concluded with support "for greater executive review of petitions to restore firearm rights, regardless of whether Congress provides funding for 18 U.S.C. § 925(c)…." That provision empowers ATF to consider petitions for relief from legal disabilities, but since 1992 Congress has prohibited use of funds to do so.
Judge Peter Phipps pointed out that before enactment of the federal felon gun ban, Attorney General Katzenbach incorrectly represented to Congress that "the Supreme Court of the United States long ago made it clear that the amendment did not guarantee to any individuals the right to bear arms." No Supreme Court case made any such claim, and following Heller, "That advice has not aged well."
Judge Cheryl Ann Krause wrote that courts should not "blindly defer to a categorical presumption that a given individual permanently presents a special risk of danger without the opportunity for him to rebut it." Absent other avenues of relief, federal courts should be open to consider those seeking restoration of gun rights. Courts routinely make decisions about gun possession as a condition of bail and in sentencing, and so would be equipped to decide whether rights should be restored.
The final concurrence was by Judge Jane Richards Roth, who opined that "when disarmament is purely based on felon status (not an individualized assessment of danger to others), an indicator of the power to regulate is the maximum penalty for the offense of conviction." Once the maximum penalty for which a convicted person might have been incarcerated passes, the person should be permitted to petition for restoration of rights.
The main difference between Judge Krause's and Judge Roth's concurrences is that the former opined that individuals should be eligible to seek reinstatement of their rights once their sentences are completed, while the latter would require them to wait until the time for the maximum possible penalty ran. Judge Krause's approach is plainly superior, as it reflects the actual punishment meted out for the crime. Notably, both Judges Krause and Roth had dissented from the en banc court's prior decision in favor of Range, but the Supreme Court's emphasis on temporary disarmament in Rahimi apparently persuaded them to reconsider their position.
Dissenting, Judge Patty Shwartz wrote that the majority disregarded the Supreme Court's statements that the felon ban was "longstanding" and "presumptively lawful," that the Second Amendment protects "law-abiding" persons, and that the historical test is not a "regulatory straightjacket." She thought that status-based bans on Native Americans, Blacks, and Catholics were, however repugnant today, proper analogues for the felon ban, as they all were based on being "disloyal to the sovereign."
The Eighth Circuit reached the opposite result as the Third. On August 8, in United States v. Jackson, it upheld the felon ban categorically. Post-Bruen, it had already upheld the ban, but the Supreme Court granted the felon's cert petition, vacated, and remanded for reconsideration consistent with Rahimi. Its subsequent decision replicated its earlier decision.
In the panel decision by Judge Steven Colloton, Jackson held that "there is no need for felony-by-felony litigation regarding the constitutionality of § 922(g)(1)." The court opined that Rahimi does not require a showing of special danger by specific persons who are disarmed by laws applicable to categories of persons. Jackson had been twice convicted of sale of controlled substances, although the court did not specify the type.
The clincher for categorical bans, Jackson reasoned, was based on historical practice: "Not all persons disarmed under historical precedents—not all Protestants or Catholics in England, not all Native Americans, not all Catholics in Maryland, not all early Americans who declined to swear an oath of loyalty—were violent or dangerous persons." Voilà, no as-applied challenges are allowed even if the specific persons are not violent or dangerous.
Dissenting from denial of a petition for rehearing, Judge David Stras noted that the law Rahimi upheld required a finding of "a credible threat to the physical safety" of others. By leaping from "presumptively constitutional to always constitutional," the court "insulat[ed] felon-dispossession laws from Second Amendment scrutiny of any kind." The decision deferred "to Congress's blanket determination that a group numbering in the tens of millions and ranging from murderers to ketchup-bottle tamperers categorically 'present[s] an unacceptable risk of danger if armed.'"
The Fourth Circuit recently agreed with the Eighth, in United States v. Hunt, holding that § 922(g)(1) is not subject to as-applied challenges. Notably, the panel (with Judge Toby Heytens writing) did not rely exclusively on history but also concluded that felons are not even part of the people under the plain text of the constitution. Query what this means for the First Amendment petition and assembly rights and Fourth Amendment rights of felons in the Fourth Circuit, as those rights also are guaranteed to "the people."
One more decision is worthy of note, that of the Sixth Circuit rendered on October 8. United States v. Williams, written by Judge Amul R. Thapar, was decided in the first instance after Rahimi and thus did not go through the GVR procedure. The court allowed that "when the legislature disarms on a class-wide basis, individuals must have a reasonable opportunity to prove that they don't fit the class-wide generalization."
However, the Williams court opined, a person is "dangerous" and may be disarmed "if he has committed (1) a crime 'against the body of another human being,' including (but not limited to) murder, rape, assault, and robbery, or (2) a crime that inherently poses a significant threat of danger, including (but not limited to) drug trafficking and burglary." Crimes that entail "no threat of physical danger, like mail fraud, tax fraud, or making false statements" would be a harder case, but they were not involved here – Williams had been convicted of aggravated robbery. (He has since filed a cert petition.)
Based on the above four cases, the cert conflict could not be more dramatic. Range and Williams allow as-applied challenges to the felon ban. Jackson and Hunt categorically allow no challenge to the ban. Since felons are the overwhelming majority of persons prosecuted under § 922(g), resolution by the Supreme Court is direly needed.
Given the circuit split, the Supreme Court likely would grant cert if the government seeks review in Range. Whether the government will do so is an interesting question. The Biden administration surely would have – indeed, it did the last time the Third Circuit ruled in favor of Range. But the Trump administration my take a different position on the rights of non-violent felons than the Biden administration did.
Indeed, now that President-Elect Trump's conviction is final he himself is barred by § 922(g)(1) from possessing a firearm, even though his alleged crime had nothing at all to do with violence. Perhaps, the Trump administration will seek review to resolve the circuit split but argue that the Third Circuit was right to rule in favor of Range. It would not be the first time the federal government sought review while urging the Court to affirm a lower court ruling against the government—the Obama administration did just that in litigation challenging the Defense of Marriage Act.
Meanwhile, federal circuits that recognize as-applied challenges will impose on district courts the burden of case-by-case adjudication. Their authority to do so would be necessitated by the duty to protect constitutional rights.
In doing so, such courts would not be substituting themselves for the Attorney General, who is empowered to remove disabilities under 18 U.S.C. § 925(c) based on a finding that the circumstances of the disability and the applicant's reputation are such that he/she "will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety." The Supreme Court ruled in U.S. v. Bean that district courts have no authority to remove disabilities under the statute if the Attorney General fails to act. Courts may only entertain appeals from administrative action, not from non-action. But courts removing disabilities under the Second Amendment would not be doing so under § 925(c).
Congress could do our district judges a big favor and appropriate funding for ATF to administer § 925(c) again. That may render the circuit conflict moot, as it did in BATF v. Galioto (1986), in which the Supreme Court ruled that an equal protection challenge to § 925(c) became moot when the Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986 extended the statute to include all § 922(g) disabilities, including mental commitments.
Despite Congress not funding removal of disabilities for over three decades, ATF's regulation (27 C.F.R. § 478.144) remains on the books with the procedure for filing and processing a petition to remove disabilities. (The regulation states that relief will not be granted if the applicant is prohibited from gun possession by the state law where he resides, but that is invalid because § 925(c) imposes no such condition for relief from the federal disability.) If the petition is denied, § 925(c) entitles the applicant to file a petition for judicial review in which new evidence may be admitted. That provides a check on abusive agency action.
The ball is in Congress's court to restore funding. Otherwise, given the circuit split, it is likely that the Supreme Court will step in to resolve this issue soon.
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Any argument that the 2nd Amendment allows non-violent felons to be disarmed is in bad faith, plain and simple.
What about while they’re serving their prison sentences?
Is that a serious question?
Well, you did make an absolute statement with no qualifiers - and that statement can be read to include those currently serving sentences. If you did not intend your comment to be so absolute, Noscitur is giving you the opportunity to clarify.
And yes, you really do need to clarify. It's the internet.
Prison is a lawful punishment. Once you've been released, you are no longer being subject to prison rules. This really isn't difficult.
You seems to be begging the question a bit.
If it’s permissible to send non violent felons to prison for life, and permissible to disarm them for that entire time, why shouldn’t it be permissible to impose the significantly less onerous sanction of just disarming them?
To tie the two together is already to clandestinely say they deal with the same thing. But one is prinson and one isn't.
About your second "why shouldn't it be permissible" I don't know lk--- but we aren't talking about that. It isn't a sophistry contest. Of course you dan disarm them for that entire time.
A number of reasons.
First, because locking somebody up in a cell actually DOES incapacitate them. Telling them that they can't own a gun does nothing to incapacitate them unless they'd already decided to go straight.
Second, because while criminals are locked up, and deprived of their rights in prison, those of us walking about free are left alone, free to exercise those rights. While purporting to disarm criminals while they're walking around with the rest of us requires mechanisms for (very imperfectly!) disarming the criminals, which mechanisms also interfere with the rights of the law abiding.
In fact, to such an extent that it appears that the interference with the rights of the law abiding might be the real goal.
A little introspection should show that that’s not true. First, it can make it practically more difficult (not impossible, of course, but more difficult) for an offender to buy a gun, and people tend to do things less often if they’re more difficult. Second, it means the dangerous person can be returned to jail as soon as law enforcement finds them with a gun, instead of being forced to wait until they directly harm another victim. And third, the knowledge that merely possessing a gun can lead to more prison time can deter people who otherwise would obtain one.
"A little introspection should show that that’s not true. First, it can make it practically more difficult (not impossible, of course, but more difficult) for an offender to buy a gun,"
Sure, about as difficult as buying illegal drugs. Which is to say, not terribly difficult.
If your goal is to assure that there's a healthy black market in guns, it's a winner. If your goal is to make sure criminals aren't armed, it's a joke.
I wouldn't mind the joke, if it didn't involve an elaborate mechanism of enforcement, which while generally failing to disarm criminals, is very effective at abridging the rights of the law abiding.
Abridging the rights of the law abiding is a feature, not a bug.
Why should they be disarmed while in prison if they can’t be disarmed outside it? If disarming can’t be a punishment for non-violent felonies while imprisonment can be, why can non-violent felos be disarmed at all? If the right to bear arms really is more critical than the right to general personal liberty like being be free from imprisonment, why shouldn’t the obvious logical consequences of that prioritization follow? And if you permit an exception here, what validity to the prioritization is there?
For the same reason that prisoners don't get to attend church services whenever they want and don't have unlimited free speech.
Again, this isn't a serious line of inquiry.
I would say that even while serving their sentences they have full second amendment rights, and therefore can't be disarmed as punishment.
But they can be disarmed for the same reason that visitors to a prison, who of course have all of their rights intact, are disarmed. That's not a punishment, it's a safety measure, which is allowed in a controlled environment such as a courthouse or a prison, where there are guards to protect you, and to prevent others from being armed around you.
Well that is crazy and you know it. This is you trying to win a word battle, pure sophistry. You lose a boatload of rights in prison so gun rights are laughable.
Apologies since I’m missing something so plane, but I don’t see why it’s superior, as a matter of logic, law, or policy.
Because many statutes provide for a wide range of sentences. The judge's determination is based, in part, on dangerousness. If a statute calls for a minimum of 1 year, and maximum of life, if a judge decided to go with a 1 year sentence, the judge clearly didn't think the person was that dangerous.
Is that clear? Or did the judge perhaps decide that the person’s dangerousness could be adequately mitigated without a prison snetnece, if they were also not allowed to have firearms? In which case, might judges not respond by imposing longer sentences than they otherwise would have instead?
Yeah, because if someone is dangerous, then telling them they can't own a gun is really going to be effective.
Jesus, you liberals are stupid.
If you don’t think that prohibitions on gun ownership do anything, what’s the point of imposing them at all?
And I think a lot of liberal poster here are going to be awfully surprised to learn that I’m on their side!
The point is to provide a sentencing enhancement if and when they violate the laws. Not to deter crime, because it doesn't.
If you don’t think that prohibitions on gun ownership do anything, what’s the point of imposing them at all?
And I think a lot of liberal poster here are going to be awfully surprised to learn that I’m on their side!
Yet much of the nation finds the Biden pardons of some of these prisoners just horribly wrong. Argue law all you want. You don't want those pardoned folks around your children, in your neighborhood, or armed. Just be honest.
It's superior as a matter of policy because:
1. it's easier to enforce - the police know when you are or are not serving out your sentence. Keeping track of where you are in comparison to some nominal maximum is logistically harder.
2. it's easier to comply with - the offender also clearly knows when he/she is serving out the sentence. It's again a lot harder to know about and keep track of theoretical maximums.
3. it's more consistent with the judge's actual assessment of the seriousness of the crime and by proxy the dangerousness of the criminal. The fact that two people can do quite different things that meet opposing ends of the definition of the same crime is why sentences have ranges in the first place.
I’m not sure that’s right: Judge Krause would still require offenders to affirmatively seek relief from the disability, so the simple fact that they were out of jail wouldn’t be enough.
Again, given that an affirmative act is required from the offender, I’m not sure the additional burden of calculating the eligibility date is very significant.
But sentencing isn’t just based on assessment of future dangerousness, and I think that’s an especially questionable conclusion to draw for sentences imposed when judges expected that disarmament would follow on release. Nor is it obvious why a judge’s opinion on an appropriate sentence should be privileged over the legislature’s judgment as to the seriousness of the crime.
Did you have enough dick? Would you like some more to eat?
The article examines recent legal rulings on felon gun bans, focusing on the differing opinions among courts about whether these bans can be challenged based on an individual’s specific case. It suggests that Congress should reinstate funding for ATF petitions to restore gun rights, which could resolve the current legal conflicts. With different circuit rulings, the Supreme Court may step in to settle the issue.
Is this an AI summary of the OP?
It sure reads like one.
Felons with gun rights might represent sometihing like the number of people who identify as trans. Reason and its posters on here seem to always go for what matters to nobody. Let's get all excited about whether bisexual practicing Jews are allowed to call themselves Orthodox Jews. Let's get excited about the 72 people in the world that this applies to. Let's riot , let's write flaming posts on Reason, let's invoke Lilbertarian freedom....to the barricades !!!!u
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The general position, that absent genuine/reasonable as opposed to statutory, fears, a citizen retains 2A-recognised rights, seems not unreasonable.
And similar reasoning leads me to conclude that there are no grounds for depriving most felons of their constitutionally recognised right to vote once their sentence is over.
Basically, if you think that having been a felon legitimately takes away gun and voting rights, you're being consistent, though I disagree, and if you think that it should take away neither, you're on the side of the constitutional angels, and if you think any of the other two combinations, you're susceptible to a charge of hypocrisy - why, you might even be a member of the NRA.
Gun rights for felons are more analogous to free speech rights, not voting rights.
Voting is to shape policy. It's reasonable to prevent people who can't follow the rules from having a say as to what those rules should be.
Not at all. You are totally ignoring history and tradition as required by Bruin. Owning a gun, like voting, has always been considered part of being a full member of society. Those not full members - Catholics, blacks, etc. - were disarmable at the time the 2nd Amendment was ratified and for a long time afterwards. While quite a while after the 2nd Amendment was ratified Catholics and blacks were made full members of society by constitutional amendment, where’s the constitutional amendment that removes the disability which society could impose on felons when the 2nd Amendment was ratified?
Um, 14th amendment? Literally makes an exception for voting rights for convicted criminals?
There is no constitutional case for not depriving convicted criminals of the right to vote. I FAVOR restoring it after their sentence is up, just like I favor restoring all their constitutional rights, but that's a policy question not driven by the Constitution.
The 14th Amendment by its terms doesn’t confer a right to vote on anyone. It merely gives a state a choice between letting all adult males vote (with stated exceptions) and having its congressional representation reduced by a formula. A state is completely free to choose whichever option it wants to take. And in a state with a sufficiently small minority that applying the formula doesn’t actually reduce the representation, there are no consequences at all to opting for the alternative Congressional representation formula over the usual one.
Also, it only applies to specific offices. There are no consequences at all to limiting the right to vote for governor, mayor, judges, city and county boards, etc.
Moreover, the fact that voting disability was not removed for felons is a strong indicator that there was no intent ro remove the disability on owning a gun.
As I said below, just think of the disability, like being ineligible to vote, as part of the sentence. The prison or fine part of the sentence isn’t the only part.
You're a hypocrite.
gun rights are more analogous to speech rights, because they are natural rights.
Voting rights aren't natural. Some consider them to be. The right to vote is State-created-
Seriously?
North Korea has no elections worthy of the name. Saudi Arabia has almost none. Where do you see a natural right?
I think electoral republics are vastly better forms of government than any other form that has been tried to date, and most rules that restrict the voting franchise other than based on age are bad ... but voting is clearly a state-created right.
Voting is clearly a state-created right
Just like all the others. One of the exceptional thing about America is our rights regime is created by the same document that created our state.
Natural rights is not a functional term, it's just a rhetorical push to get your particular favorites some bonus status.
It's funny that Brett debunked your claim before you even posted it.
If you check, you will find that Brett's definition is not the definition of natural rights.
Yawn. You have nothing but denialism and arm waving, as usual.
I think Brett using his own nonstandard definition is a pretty big issue with his argument.
Yawn. You have nothing but denialism and arm waving, as previously observed.
It is "A" definition of such, perfectly consistent with Locke.
I did check, by googling 'definition of natural rights' and reading several versions of the definition. It is admittedly a squishy definition - the wiki page lists a range of variations - but Brett's seems in the running as one of the mainstream ones.
You haven't specified what your preferred definition is (perhaps with a link?), so it's hard to know if your preferred variant is more or less standard than his.
I checked as well, and I don't see that definition. I see stuff on God, stuff on universality across cultures, and stuff on natural law.
I don't have a preferred definition, other than I want a be on the same page with people. I could work with Brett's definition with notice [though the idea of rights existing in a state of nature would need some serious explication].
All it did in this discussion was allow Michael P to disengage from his own squishy rhetoric and declare I was a denialist.
I stand by my critique. You didn't point, and still haven't pointed, to what you called "the definition" of natural rights. You didn't say how Brett's definition is supposedly incompatible with that definition, or how it contains either logical contractions or practical difficulties. You have a naked assertion that all rights are state-created coupled with a naked assertion that Brett's definition is wrong, apparently because he didn't use exactly the words you could find somewhere else.
(It's funny that you expect him to use magic words when he was clearly not quoting a particular source, especially given how many idiots got upset a few days ago when I pointed out that making up a statement, putting it in quotes and attributing or to somebody else is not good practice.)
You've now retreated from "the definition" to recognizing that there is a spectrum of definitions, but you still haven't said why you think Brett's definition is outside of that spectrum. That's why I stand by my critique.
My issue is that there isn't a firm definition.
But I'm willing to roll with whatever you think the definition is, so long as you specify it.
Which you have not.
Of course, I expect the definition to be subjective, thus supporting my thesis above about it just burnishing someone's favorite rights as though they had some objective philosophical push, when they're just the usual political.
"My issue is that there isn't a firm definition.
But I'm willing to roll with whatever you think the definition is, so long as you specify it."
But the definition Brett specified is wrong, and you won't roll with it??:
"If you check, you will find that Brett's definition is not the definition of natural rights."
Happy to, Absaroka, if I were talking with Brett.
[Though I would note that he's using an idioscyncratic definition before I dove in]
Also note Brett has now offered a second definition. So...squishy, as you said. Instrumentally so.
Not at all. The states pre-existed the Constitution and had full sovereignty before it. They and the people jointly participated in creating the Constitution. The states voluntarily gave up some of their power as part of this undertaking, but far from all of it.
While not completely accurate, it is far more accurate to say that the federal constitution is a creature of the states than that the states are creatures of the federal constitution.
The Bill of Rights doesn't fit that paradigm - as originally drafted, it binds the federal government only.
No state power or right is implicated.
No, it actually perfectly fits that paradigm, because the states in creating the federal government were constraining it, but not themselves, with that Bill of rights.
It would have been the other way around if the states were creatures of the federal government. Constraining your own subordinates while retaining freedom of action for yourself is pretty routine.
"Natural rights is not a functional term"
Do the Framers agree with that?
"One of the exceptional thing about America is our rights regime is created by the same document that created our state." Funny, I thought we inherited our rights regime from England, and we reluctantly sought independence from England when England began reneging on that regime. Well before the first bullets flew, we were reminding them of those rights in the hope they would respect them, hence 'reluctantly.' Once independent of England, we made some improvements, of course, but all to limit state power.
First, natural rights arguments are inherently and fundamentally. bullshit There are no natural rights, only convenient fictions. This is so obvious that anyone who disagrees is either crippled by theology, or by political belief, or is simply stupid. It is a constant source of amazement to me that so many otherwise intelligent people, over centuries, have supported the idea of natural rights. And they get even stupider when they argue that these rights are God-given.
Second, arguendo, that a country deprives its citizens of certain rights doesn't mean that they're not "natural". In fact, it's an idiotic argument and you're smarter than that.
Voting is a constitutionally recognised right. The Constitution does not talk about natural rights anywhere.
But it's trivial to find a natural rights argument that voting is a right - if personal autonomy is a natural right (which is, after all, at the root of the right to self-defence) then the right to vote is a logical consequence of that right.
I agree that 'natural rights' run into the is/ought problem, that you can't prove they exist as absolutes.
That just means they're Kantian "conditional imperatives", "If you want X, you must do Y!", not "categorical imperatives", "You have to do Y regardless of what you want."
All natural rights come with a "If you don't want a seriously screwed up and dystopian society" unstated premise.
'Do this or dystopia' is just as subjective a rights paradigm as 'do this.'
It also seems a new definition than the 'natural rights are all rights you could exercise in a state of nature' one you offered below.
As I said, convenient fictions...
Kantian conditional imperatives don't have to be fiction. "If you don't want to break your legs, don't jump off a cliff." is a conditional imperative, but it's not fiction.
"If you want a functioning economy, respect private property rights." is hardly fiction, it's just that nothing obligates you to want a functioning economy.
"If you want a functioning economy, respect private property rights." is hardly fiction
It becomes a fiction if you claim that private property rights are natural.
"natural rights arguments are inherently and fundamentally. bullshit There are no natural rights, only convenient fictions"
Then why the pearl-clutching over Constitutional protections?
I wasn't clutching pearls. You appear to be clutching straws.
Yes, seriously. Natural rights are all rights you could exercise in a state of nature. How do you "vote" in a state of nature?
Suppose there's no election this year? How do you exercise that right to vote?
It's like the right to a trial by jury: You can't just wake up in the morning and decide, "I feel like enjoying a trial by jury today!"; You can't get one if the government isn't prosecuting you!
So, could you own a gun in a state of nature? Of course you could, you don't need government to own a gun.
Natural rights are all rights you could exercise in a state of nature
Not true. You're confusing "things you can do" with "things you have a right to do". And where do these rights come from?
How are you "entitled" to carry a gun in a state of nature?
In a state of nature, try not doing it.
Major Strasser:
How about New York?
Rick:
Well there are certain sections of New York, Major, that I wouldn't advise you to try to invade.
"How do you "vote" in a state of nature?"
That, right there. Voting demands that all others in your society admit that the individual has a power, though a small one, in the society. In the political context, one's power is another's surrendered right.
The right to trial by jury is the power given to the nation-state to take twelve or more people from their homes and jobs to sit in that trial. I have the right, the state has the power over 12 other people to reify it.
I should have said 'the right to vote is created by the nation-state.'
As indeed are all other rights - because there are no natural rights. But many states treat rights as though they're pre-existing (like the US) or natural, God-given, etc. And often enough it's convenient, and even a very good idea, so to pretend.
Where does the constitution guarantee that right?
So no problem. Since deprivation of the right to vote is part of the sentence, just say the sentence isn’t over as long as they aren’t allowed to vote. Only the imprisonment part of the sentence is over, not the other parts. Same with disarmament. Easy.
The constitution recognises the right to vote. As you well know.
The constitution discusses things that can’t be used to disqualify someone from voting. It doesn’t ever discuss it in terms remotely parallel to the way the right to bear arms in the second amendment, and the fourteenth amendment seems to expressly bless disqualification following a criminal conviction.
It doesn;t matter that there's no specific amendment, "All citizens have the right to vote." That various amendments say that the right to vote shall not be abridged on account of, etc. can only mean that the right to vote is pre-existing, hence, reocgnised. It is folly to think otherwise.
You’re the one who said it was a “ constitutionally recognised right”!
Yes, because it is. If the constitution says that "no-one shall be deprived of right X because of Y" that is the constitution recognising the pre-existence of right X.
Your argument would be valid if voting were a constitutional right. But it isn't. Nowhere in the constitution is there a right to vote, for anyone. All the constitution says is that if a state grants a general right to vote, then it can't deprive someone of that right on a list of specific grounds. It can still do so on any grounds that are not specifically prohibited.
For instance, note that the 14th amendment, despite the equal protection clause, explicitly anticipates that a state might ban black people from voting, and imposes a penalty on states that choose to do so. Clearly it accepts that states have the inherent right to do so, and its framers and ratifiers didn't want to take that right away, so instead they gave states an incentive not to exercise that right.
It wasn't till the 15th amendment that the constitution first started limiting that right, and thus nullifying the penalty provision in the 14th. The 19th, 24th, and 26th expanded the 15th by adding grounds on which states can't limit the franchise, but they remain free to do so on any grounds not listed in those amendments. The 14th is not a bar to such limits, because there is no general constitutional right to vote, as there is to bear arms.
There need not be a "general right to vote" for the constitutional provisions to kick in. If a state only had a limited right to vote, it still could not discriminate based on race and so forth.
There are various places where a constitutional right to vote can be found. For instance, the United States is guaranteed a republican form of government. It was early on considered a privilege and immunity of citizenship. It is the sort of thing the 9th and 10th Amendments protect. The DOI speaks of the right of the people -- by their vote -- to change the government.
Once the right to vote is provided -- and it always was to some degree given the nature of our republican form of government -- it is even more clearly a "fundamental right" which cannot be arbitrarily denied. It is a "liberty" for due process purposes.
I'm fine if the matter is more clearly secured by the passage of a more explicit constitutional amendment but that is a separate issue. 14A, sec. 2 still does not negate a right to vote protected by other means, including by 14A, sec. 1.
There was originally no general recognized right for women to vote but they also weren't members of the organized militia or members of juries, two constitutionally protected rights.
I agree overall that once a felon serves their sentence their rights should be fully secured. The legitimate reasons to limit rights, however, will be somewhat different depending on the right.
Non-convicted people awaiting trial in prison should have a right to vote. They need not have the right to a gun in their cell. The same could be true while they are out on parole.
The argument that some violent felons, even after they serve their sentence, might be disarmed -- at the very least, have to go through more hoops to get their gun rights back -- is somewhat reasonable. Again, there is not an equal need to deny them the right to vote.
As expected, the pieces of shit Roberts and Barrett declined to hear the Delaware "assault weapons ban" case.
Are you able to talk without giving away what you think of yourself and what you expect others to think of you?
The point about § 925(c) cannot be emphasized enough. Congress enacted a mechanism to (at least in large part) resolve the problem, but is too cowardly to let it actually be used—and even too cowardly to just honestly change the law to remove the possibility of relief.
I think you've misidentified the locus of the cowardice. Members of Congress who are in districts where people care about 2nd amendment rights, but who personally don't like the 2nd amendment, cowardly enacted a provision to restore rights, and then bravely refused to fund it...
Your conservative legislators secretly hate the 2A continues to just be bog standard fringey populism, with your commonly asserted secret bad faith patina.
2A is a fun one because you also include the Supreme Court.
Can you give me an example of some of these districts where people support gun rights generally and also think it should be easier for felons to get their rights back? And some of the members of congress who you think are pretending to like gun rights but secretly want to make it harder? Because neither seems like a very substantial constituency from my experience.
A large part of the problem is simply "felony inflation". IIRC, "felonies" were originally all crimes you could potentially get the death penalty for, so merely depriving you of a constitutional right was a lesser penalty.
Now that they've made into felonies things that at one time wouldn't even have been crimes, let alone misdemeanors, the reasoning really doesn't work. You'd never be allowed to execute somebody for picking up an Eagle feather.
You can keep saying this all you want, but that doesn’t make it true. (Joke’s on me, I guess, since I can keep pointing that out without getting you to stop saying it.) to the extent there was inflation, it took place in the 18th century.
These opinions, for what it’s worth, do contain a thoughtful treatment of the history of felony punishments in the U.S., as do most of the other circuit opinions referenced here.
Could you recommend one of the decisions with a particularly good discussion of the felony inflation issue?
The 18th century is the 1700's. I don't think there was a bag limit on eagles, much less a crime to stick a feather in your cap. And I'm not sure wife beating was even illegal if hubby stopped short of grievous bodily harm. So it does seem like it's a little easier today to put a toe across the felony line?
"And I'm not sure wife beating was even illegal if hubby stopped short of grievous bodily harm."
Nah, that's feminist mythology, like "the rule of thumb"; Wife beating absolutely was illegal in the 1700's, it just wasn't a distinct crime from assault and battery in general.
This is not to say that it was reliably prosecuted. Just that it WAS illegal.
What, like the cases listed in https://www.cato.org/commentary/begging-pardon ?
There are a lot of cases where what has changed -- and changed in living memory -- is the interpretation of statutes. In a lot of cases, the statues themselves have changed to be broader. There may have been an expansion two centuries ago, but it seems dwarfed by what has been done recently.
There needs to be a way to get a prior adjudication of a felon's right to keep and bear arms. That could be the statutory but currently unfunded rehabilitation procedure. Otherwise, the courts should invent a process where one sues the federal government to get a declaratory judgment.
(Offer not valid in circuits where as applied challenges are not allowed.)
I often disagree with Mr. Halbrook. But I agree with him on his point that in general, when Congress keeps laws on the books but refuses to spend money on enforcing them, it undermines respect for the rule of law. Congress should either enforce the law or repeal it.
Nonetheless, there is nothing unconstitutional about this practice. Keeping controversial laws on the books but leaving them unenforced has a long history in this country and has been applied to many subjects, particularly morals laws (consensual sexual offenses, gambling, etc.) but many more as well. Congress is entitled to decide that undermining long-term respect for the rule of law is a price worth paying for a compromise that, for the time being, keeps the peace by leaving both sides disgruntled but neither enraged.
It is very understandable that Mr. Halbrook, as an advocate for one of the sides, would be disgruntled by Congress having taken this approach.
There may be nothing unconstitutional about not enforcing a law per se, but if the government's argument for the facial constitutionality of 922(g)(1) is that there is a process to get rights restored, that goes away, and thus becomes unconstitutional, if there isn't really a process because there's no funding for it.