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Second Amendment Roundup: Supreme Court Considering Arms Ban Petitions on Friday
Whatever happened to long guns good, handguns bad?
The Supreme Court has distributed two important cases for its conference of January 10. One is Snope v. Brown, which concerns whether Maryland may ban semiautomatic rifles that are in common use for lawful purposes. The other is Ocean State Tactical v. Rhode Island, which asks whether a retrospective, confiscatory ban on the possession of ammunition feeding devices that are in common use violates the Second Amendment.
The Court should grant the petitions for writs of certiorari. The cases present a critically important question going to the heart of the Second Amendment – may the government prohibit mere possession of AR-15s and similar semiautomatic rifles and of standard magazines that come with most semiautomatic rifles and pistols?
As I explained in my recent post "Firepower and the Fourth Circuit," Maryland's prohibition on AR-15s and the like rifles was upheld en banc on the merits under reasoning in direct conflict with the Supreme Court's precedents. Likewise, the First Circuit's affirmance of the denial of a preliminary injunction against the Rhode Island ban follows the same trend by certain circuit courts flaunting even the most recent of the Court's rulings.
For most of the Nation's history, long guns – rifles and shotguns – were seen as good, while handguns were depicted by some as bad. The muskets fired at Lexington and Concord became a symbol of American freedom. Restrictions on the carrying of concealed pistols arose in the nineteenth century. New York's Sullivan Law of 1911 required a permit just to keep a handgun in the home. But as the New York court explained in People v. Raso (1958), "a rifle may be possessed in the home or carried openly upon the person on the street without violating any law," since in restricting concealed weapons, the legislature "carefully avoided including rifles because of the Federal constitutional provision and [NewYork's] Civil Rights law provision." I personally heard Justice Scalia tell how, when he was on the high school rifle team, he carried his rifle on the New York subway.
The initial bill that became the National Firearms Act of 1934 listed pistols and revolvers first among the firearms that would be subject to registration. Attorney General Homer Cummings depicted them as the ultimate gangster weapons, but they were removed from the Act as passed.
Repeating rifles with magazines holding numerous cartridges had been around since the mid-nineteenth century in the form of lever-actions. Semiautomatic rifles with detachable magazines were on the market by the turn of the century. Virtually no restrictions on either type were enacted.
Fast forward to District of Columbia v. Heller, in which the District's brief argued that its handgun ban "do[es] not disarm the District's citizens, who may still possess operational rifles and shotguns." The law "continues to allow private home possession of shotguns and rifles, which some gun rights' proponents contend are actually the weapons of choice for home defense." Its amicus Violence Policy Center contended that "a wealth of evidence" shows that "in almost all situations 'shotguns and rifles are much more effective in stopping a [criminal].'"
Invalidating the handgun ban in Heller, the Supreme Court set forth principles that apply to both handguns and long guns. First, "the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding." Second, the Second Amendment protects arms that are "'in common use at the time' for lawful purposes like self-defense" and are "typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes." Third, handguns as a class are protected by the Amendment and may not be banned; the Court did not need to mention that most handguns are semiautomatic. Fourth, the Court suggested that "M-16 rifles and the like," i.e., fully automatic machineguns, and "sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large" may be banned.
As its interpretative tools, Heller was based on text, which was informed by the original public understanding, and history, particularly the allowance from the Founding that the "carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons" could be restricted, but that arms could not be banned. The Court rejected Justice Breyer's argument that the right could be eliminated based on judicial "interest balancing."
In response to the Heller decision, the District legalized handguns but banned numerous rifles it characterized as "assault weapons" together with "large capacity" magazines. Given the above points from the Heller decision, we thought that a challenge to that ban would be a no-brainer, and brought the case that came to be known as Heller II.
In a 2-1 decision, the D.C. Circuit fully conceded that the banned rifles and magazines were commonly possessed in America, but upheld the ban under intermediate scrutiny, the very method of Justice Breyer that the Supreme Court rejected. In "Reality Check," Georgetown Journal of Law & Public Policy, I explained how the factual record in the case refuted the unsworn claims by antigun lobbyists in the legislative record relied on by the court. But the Heller II decision opened the Pandora's Box of intermediate scrutiny on which other circuits upheld semiautomatic rifle and magazine bans.
The silver lining in the cloud was then-Judge Brett Kavanaugh's dissenting opinion, which is a blueprint for how the Supreme Court should analyze similar rifle bans. The opinion brilliantly exposits Heller's analytic method of text and history as well as traces the over-a-century history in which semiautomatic rifles with detachable magazines have been accepted by and are in common use by the American public. Judge Kavanaugh anticipated what the Supreme Court empathically later held so clearly in Bruen – that the correct method begins and ends with text and history, and as Justice Thomas put it, intermediate scrutiny is "one step too many."
Now denied use of the term "intermediate scrutiny," the Fourth Circuit in Snope and the First Circuit in Ocean State Tactical continue to apply their own subjective judicial balancing tests in which the Second Amendment always loses. The Snope court upheld Maryland's ban because supposedly the 9 mm cartridge, not the .223 caliber cartridge, is best for self-defense, oblivious to the fact that the ban is based on model and generic features, having nothing to do with caliber. Yet even though the majority use .223 rounds, there are AR-15 type rifles designed to fire 9 mm rounds, and they too are banned based on their features.
Similarly, the Ocean State Tactical court decided that no evidence exists that magazines holding over ten rounds "are used in self-defense," and thus that banning them "imposes no meaningful burden" on the right to self-defense. It wrote off what the people actually choose with the half-joke: "True, one could imagine Hollywood-inspired scenarios in which a homeowner would need to fend off a platoon of well-armed assailants without having to swap out magazines."
The Supreme Court should grant cert in these cases. The courts of appeal that have upheld such bans openly flaunt the Court's jurisprudence. It began after Heller, and it has now repeated itself after Bruen. While the states with bans are outliers, their large populations represent a significant number of Americans whose rights are being trampled.
There is no circuit split because most states respect the Second Amendment and would not enact such bans. The circuits that have upheld the bans appear to reflect the political judgments of at least some of the states under them.
The Snope litigants are represented by David Thompson (see cert petition) and the Ocean State litigants are represented by Paul Clement (see cert petition). I've covered the topic at length in America's Rifle: The Case for the AR-15.
There are also two other worthy cases that are distributed for the Court's conference on January 10. One is Gray v. Jennings, which seeks review of the Third Circuit's affirmance of the denial of a preliminary injunction against Delaware's ban on semiautomatic rifles. The issue posed is "Whether the infringement of Second Amendment rights constitutes per se irreparable injury." The other is Maryland Shall Issue v. Moore, which seeks review of Maryland's handgun license qualification requirement, which requires a redundant background check and duplicative waiting periods.
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The more firearms the better, right Mr. Halbrook? What an amazing country this would be if everyone had at least one rifle, one handgun, and one shotgun. Why should anyone care about the harm these firearms can and do cause to innocent people, including children?
Teach the children gun safety and there won't be the problem.
Teaching children about gun safety won't do them much good if some maniac comes into their school with a semi-automatic weapon and starts massacring them.
Neither will disarming law abiding citizens.
Fortunately the courts are reaching the conclusion (some being dragged), that restricting the rights of the law abiding is not the answer to preventing the acts of law breakers, and never has been.
Violent crime rates hit a high in the early 90's pre-Heller, and has dropped since the modern shall issue and constitutional carry movement has expanded, and become almost universal as the last of the states are dragged into compliance with the constitution.
https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
Oh, now you realize it's the maniacs who do the damage. What are your plans for them? You think a criminal bent on murder will stop because of some law banning guns? You think you can actually wave Harry Potter's magic wand and get rid of all guns? Police included, since they have a sorry track record of keeping their own guns out of the hands of criminals.
Yes, he really thinks things that stupid. It's a common failing on the left: they think that having good intentions is sufficient to ensure good outcomes.
It will do a lot of good. Both the students and the teachers will be able to accurately gun down the attacker in seconds. You cannot massacre armed people.
That actually happened in 2002 at the Appalachian School of Law -- two students went to their cars and got their guns...
It also happened in the parking lot of the Augusta (ME) Walmart.
https://www.newscentermaine.com/article/news/local/augusta-waterville/augusta-police-legally-armed-bystanders-break-up-walmart-shooting/97-257256957
Like you're massacring the Engrish language? I know "massacring" is correct King's Engrish, that's why we don't have a King anymore.
Thanks for showing up to remind us of your stupidity once again, Frank. If you own a dictionary you might want to look up the present participle of massacre.
I eagerly await your penis removal surgery to prevent rape.
tl;dr: exactly—that argument can be made against almost anything. Swimming pools, tall buildings, passenger jets, belts: you name it.
———
And while we’re at it, let’s ban the printing press to prevent libel, counterfeiting, child pr0nography, 3D-printed firearm CAD files, etc—oh, and shutter the internet to stop people saying “Wuhan flu” and other misinformations like claiming the Chicoms killed 10 million people with their little PRRA insert on the S protein.
And it’s beyond question that vehicles should be banned to prevent “maniacs” massacring “innocent people, including children”—those body counts are often higher than those of gun-wielding maniacs, so there’s little argument that can be marshaled against such a ban, amirite? Plus unlike arms, neither cars nor trucks are enumerated in the Bill of Rights. Why does your need to get to work in under 4 hours trump children’s rights not to be run over by crazy people, you callous jerk? You could walk, you know?!
But it seems the positions are hardening on both sides…
Ever since Heller removed the “militia” rationalization from the Obama judges’ armamentarium, somewhat paradoxically, the Democrats have pushed into new frontiers of gun banning with reckless abandon, unfazed and unburdened by Bruen—in practice it hasn’t even amounted to a speed bump for them. In part this may be an effect of the ideological and geographical (state-wise) sorting of the parties, with the Democrats much more homogenously abhorring firearms and the politicians they elect increasingly unlikely suffer any electoral repercussions from passing brazenly unconstitutional antigun legislation.
They also don’t care that their legislative efforts broadly invade the culture, traditions, and yes, rights of the 99.99% [I might be off by one or more orders of magnitude] of gun owners who possess and use arms lawfully. The anti-gunners really do seem to think it is a second-class right, subject to anll manner of always well-intended restrictions they wouldn’t dream of imposing on other enumerated rights like 1A—oh, wait…
Anyhoo, they are incredulous and increasingly exasperated that they can’t just ban guns outright like in “rational” “normal” countries like Australia.
The Democrat Party is wedded to the “Living Constitution” pseudo-methodology, because it renders the Constitutional bedrock entirely plastic. Dems by and large now refuse to treat 2A like the constitutional right it is while feeling no tension whatsoever as they invent new constitutional “rights” like abortion out of the fuzziness of turgid mental gymnastics and linguistic legerdemain.
If you want to ban all semi-automatic guns, work to change the Constitution. Stop trying to distort and ignore the clearly stated right of “the people to keep and bear arms”.
Thankfully Trump won in 2016 and we have an originalist Court that will thwart the Dems’ worst excesses, though if you’re in a Dem-controlled state and have your rights impinged that’s little comfort while you wait for the slow turning of the wheels of justice.
With respect to cert, if I am not mistaken, there is conflict among the Appeals Circuits over the LCM bans, so hopefully a majority on the high court agrees the issue is ripe. The semi-automatic weapon bans—a much more accurate name for the legislation in CO and RI—may not be as ripe but 100M+ people are now deprived of a foundational aspect of their natural rights, and it might be a long time until we see circuit-level disagreement outcome-wise—though even in upholding the AWBs of various states, the Obama circuits have advanced a hodgepodge of justifications and (mis)applications of Heller and Bruen to arrive at their predetermined decisions, and that mess is already begging to be decluttered and swept away by the Court.
Anyway, we’ll have to see what happens…
Just when I think there is no common ground.
"the harm these firearms can and do cause"
None. You show your ignorance by forgetting that it is the criminals you coddle who do the damage.
Do you know what I have noticed? The overt presence of openly carried firearms makes people much more polite in their interactions with each other. One might call it 'encouraged civility'.
Coming from NJ, I was pretty shocked at the open carry in TX, at first. And then NC, TN. Over time, I also noticed how much more polite and attentive people became when there are multiple people walking around or in queue at a grocer with a rifle slung over their shoulder.
In the People's Republic of NJ, there is little such public civility in our more populated areas. Try queuing up in Dover or EWR or Trenton or Camden or Vineland (I went N to S), and see how the interactions between people are different.
I much prefer the encouraged civility environment. Oddly, I feel safer when I see multiple people carrying rifles around me, queued up to purchase whatever.
To be fair, open carry of a rifle is just stupid. You're doing so to draw attention to yourself, which in general I think is a bad idea, although I don't think it should be illegal.
No issue with open carry of pistols though, although I don't do it myself.
It could be state law that allows open carry of a rifle where handguns are illegal outside the home, as in the Scalia anecdote above.
And NJ law has probably just recently be changed to make it more carry friendly, but if I recall correctly they added some poison pills too.
1. Correlation is not causation.
2. If it is causal, considering the thought process you're positing, that's horrifying!
Guns make people contemplate every interaction carrying a risk of escalation to lethality? How could you think that's an endorsement of firearms?!
I think there is an individual right to self defense, but the arguments people bring to these discussion tend towards the weird.
Correlation indeed is not causation; still though, observed reality matters. Overt open carry does induce a behavioral change that I have directly observed, and that behavioral change is what I labelled 'encouraged civility'. Attributes that go along with encouraged civility would include: the linguistic use of yes, thank you, Sir, Ma'am and please is prevalent; a pronounced lack of disrespectful behavior while queued or in public; very few verbal confrontations result in physical confrontations. People are polite, and generally keep to themselves.
You might think that encouraged civility is horrifying, Sarcastr0. I vastly prefer that encouraged civility to what I see in the People's Republic of NJ (and Philly, mid-town NYC) on a daily basis.
I don't think you understand what 'Correlation indeed is not causation' means.
You have not established anything was induced by lotsa guns being about.
I like civility fine. I think civility at the point of a gun is horrifying. I am unsurprised you don't see the distinction these days.
If you don't like "civility at the point of a gun" you must also hate armed police and government agents. And laws, Oh Lordy how you must love laws, new laws, revised laws, and all the regulations they breed, since every law and every regulation is backed up by guns and the threat of jail and death.
Police outside of government agencies aren’t there to enforce civility.
The rest of this is just taxation is robbery as though you never developed beyond Freshman dorm room politics.
I dunno. Thinking 'I can be rude to this guy because he isn't open carrying' seems pretty dumb. I've had a CPL for enough decades I don't assume there isn't a gun just because I can't see one. And if you are in a jurisdiction that is stingy with permits, then I'd really worry about pissing off the crooks carrying w/o a permit.
And I'm polite because I don't want to be a dick, not because I think anyone is or isn't armed.
I agree = Thinking 'I can be rude to this guy because he isn't open carrying' seems pretty dumb.
Glad I wasn't making that point. Quite the opposite.
My point: Because there are overtly armed people about, people will exercise more care and discretion in their public interactions with others.
I am polite for the same reasons you are; it was also how I was reared.
Polite? Sometimes. But not when you tell people to drink draino or accuse people of blood libel or call Harris ‘heels up.’
Do you think threat of being shot might help your behavior?
You've made worse insults here. If you think those insults are fighting words, what do you think of yours and yourself?
Who takes about fighting words?
I’m talking about how it’s enforcing civility with the threat of gunplay is bad.
"in queue at a grocer with a rifle slung over their shoulder"
If I see someone at the grocery store with a rifle, even an LEO, I'm going to be thinking something really bad is about to happen, and I'm going to be elsewhere in a hurry.
Nothing against people with guns. At our cabin in bear country it's unusual to see unarmed people, whether rifle or pistol, but people don't take rifles grocery shopping.
Back in the 70's I wouldn't have been shocked to see somebody with a long arm slung over their shoulder at our local country store, buying groceries. The field behind it was a good spot for deer.
But not a rifle, of course, because those idiots in Lansing prohibited hunting with a rifle below the middle of the lower peninsula. Like there weren't rural areas below that line, and cities above it... that stupid law is why I own a bolt action 'shotgun' with a rifled bore.
Exactly, context matters.
Just guessing, but these gentlemen don't look like they are just in from the deer blind to me.
Damn, I think I saw them, lol. (just kidding)
If I see someone at the grocery store with a rifle, I'm thinking they're probably going from A to B (like a practice range or the deer stand) and are being responsible by ensuring that their weapon is in their personal custody at all times and not being left somewhere that it can be easily stolen.
If "something bad is about to happen", it will be more obvious from body language, facial expression and actions from the mere presence (or absence) of a gun.
One each?
Those are rookie numbers.
Let's see:
4 rifles
2 shotguns
5 handguns
1 PDW (CMMG Banshee in 9mm)
1 crossbow
All 4 of my kids have been shooting since they were young. The 3 that are adults now all own guns. Michigan is a "shall" issue state so we all carry. Hell, I even got my MIL and SIL trained and carrying.
Dammit.
6 handguns.
Picked up the TaurusTX 22 for plinking.
What a great pistol! Terrific for training.
My sympathies on your boating accident losses - - - - - - - -
(Tomorrow)
Generally yes, the more guns the better. In aggregate, the benefits those firearms enable is greater than the harm.
An AR-15 chambered for 9mm?
That's about the same size as the .35 Remington, which is a 200 grain round. No, you aren't firing it full auto, but even firing it semi auto, even if you only have a five round clip, unless the AR has some serious compensation for recoil, you're going to know that you've fired something.
Or does it fire 9mm pistol rounds like the Uzi?
Ed, the power of a round actually comes from the powder charge not the bullet.
A .223 is a much smaller round but because it has a much higher powder charge than a 9mm and and travels at 4x the speed.
But that also means a .223 round can go through a target, and not transfer all of that energy to the target, where as a larger round can transfer more energy to the target even when traveling at a lower speed.
But simple physics, 'for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction', should tell you that its the size of the powder charge that that controls the recoil (minus some of the energy used for cycling the charge), not the size of the bullet.
Most 9mm are 1300-1400-1500 fps, 1/2 half a .223 round.
About the only thing as slow as 1/4 a .223 round is some subsonic .22LR ammo. Even .45 is faster.
This says about 1155fps for 9mm.
https://www.ammunitiondepot.com/blog/how-fast-does-a-9mm-bullet-travel-ammunition-depot
And this says 3200fps for a.223:
https://gundata.org/blog/post/223-ballistics-chart/
So lets call it 2.8x as fast.
But its kind of apples and oranges anyway, the data from a 9mm is going to be from a handgun, with about a 4-5" barrel, and the .223 from a 16" barrel.
I have a .357 snubnose and a .357 carbine, and shooting the same round from the carbine achieves double the muzzle velocity of the snubnose.
A .223 bolt action rifle with a 24" barrel would likely exceed 4000fps.
9mm: "typical" published velocities for fmj 9mm rounds vary depending on mfr and bullet weight but are from about 1150 fps for 115 grain down to about 1000 fps for 147 grain. Increasing barrel length from the common 4.5"-5.0" up to 18" or so increases velocity by about 10-15% depending on ammunition.
.357 Mag: increasing barrel length from short (maybe 3") to 18" increases velocity by about 50%. For a longer barrel pistol, the increase would be less, of course.
.223/5.56mm: going from 16.5" to 26" (Remington 700) increases velocity about 7-10% depending on the ammunition. One tester using the Remington 700 with 26" barrel measured velocities of 3182 fps to 3431 fps using 55 grain fmj from Remington, Winchester, and Federal.
https://rifleshooter.com/2015/12/223-remington-5-56mm-nato-barrel-length-and-velocity-26-inches-to-6-inches/
"I have a .357 snubnose and a .357 carbine, and shooting the same round from the carbine achieves double the muzzle velocity of the snubnose."
How did you measure this?
"the data from a 9mm is going to be from a handgun,"
I own a 9mm carbine, but honestly, 9mm is still kind of puny even out of a longer barrel.
Ed, the power of a round actually comes from the powder charge not the bullet.
NO. Physics 101 -- Force is equal to Mass times Acceleration.
There is a clear relationship between the powder charge and the energy (Force) of the bullet, although other factors such as the length of the barrel, twists of the barrel, etc.
The M1 Garland (WWII/Korea) rifle fired a .30-06 round and after the wars, the US Army decided that it didn't need the distance of the .30-06 round and somehow concluded it better to use three .223 rounds to kill a soldier than one .30-06 round. I don't know how they did this but suspect it was somehow involved in the decision to go from the M-14 (.308) to the M-16 (.223).
The ballistics I was thinking of for "9mm rifle" was the .35 Remington, this round: http://gundata.org/cartridge/84/.35-remington/
It may be going slower than the .223 bullet, but it's the multiple of speed and weight that defines energy -- and then it is energy transferred that matters and you are correct that a bullet that goes through the target hasn't transferred all of its energy, although it can do lethal damage in the course of this penetration.
And what people often forget about "bulletproof" vests is that they only prevent penetration -- the full energy of the bullet is transferred, albeit to a large area.
A .223 is a much smaller round but because it has a much higher powder charge than a 9mm and and travels at 4x the speed.
So we are talking about the 9mm handgun round? The shorter shell casing doesn't jam when ejected?
But that also means a .223 round can go through a target, and not transfer all of that energy to the target, where as a larger round can transfer more energy to the target even when traveling at a lower speed.
But the higher speed round creates ripples -- shock waves -- as it goes through, and those can also do serious damage.
But simple physics, 'for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction', should tell you that its the size of the powder charge that that controls the recoil (minus some of the energy used for cycling the charge), not the size of the bullet.
No. It is the speed times the size.
However, a larger bullet does have greater wind resistance.
Ed, if you don't know that '9mm AR' means 9mm Luger/9x19/whatever, googling that will save you writing a few paragraphs of blather.
I am simply amazed that the brass doesn't rotate while being ejected and jam.
The AR-15 and it's evil twin the M-16 have been available in 9mm since the 1980's.
And yes, the AR has some "Serious Compensation for Recoil" all Semiautomatics do, it's part of the force from gases from the fired round that propel the bolt/carrier backwards, and not just the stock of the rifle into your shoulder like with a bolt action. Recoil from an M-16 in 5/56 is comfortable, even in full auto, actually a little more in full auto, in 9mm even more so.
Well I think its self explanatory why the the militia clause of the second amendment would certainly ban weapons suitable for the militia.
Well I've been told its obvious and self explanatory, but come to think of it I've never actually seen or heard an explanation that makes sense.
While we're on the topic, it might be useful for someone to remind us why the "well regulated militia" phrase has apparently been excised from the Second Amendment.
It has not been excised from the constitution, Congress has the power to regulate the militia in article 1, and least if they do so in a non punitive or non discriminatory fashion.
Article 1, section 8:
"To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"
Congress got rid of the draft because it was unpopular, but they could require enrolling and training in the local militia, that might not be popular either.
But what they can't do is infringe on the right of the people to keep and bear arms.
"It has not been excised from the constitution, Congress has the power to regulate the militia in article 1"
Regulating the militia does not mean regulating the right to keep and bear arms.
Also, "well regulated" in 2A doesn't mean what you think it means.
https://www.madisonbrigade.com/library_bor.htm
This is why a particularly accurate clock from that period was often referred to as a "Regulator".
Exactly -- I was just going to say that.
It might also be useful to remember the true purpose of the 2nd Amendment, the one that makes statists wet their pants: defend against tyrannical government.
It hasn't. Every able-bodied males between 17 and 45 years of age are members of the militia by US law. (10 USC subsection 246)
Private ownership of firearms facilitates that militia.
MoreCurious:
You are correct. Post-Heller case law on the 2A is exactly the same as it would be if there were no Militia Clause.
It would be true, if it wasn't a lie.
MoreCurious 7 hours ago
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Mute User
"While we're on the topic, it might be useful for someone to remind us why the "well regulated militia" phrase has apparently been excised from the Second Amendment."
It has not been excised from 2A
Its a common talking point - but like all leftist talking points, it is wrong.
Well, it was kinda excised by Scalia in Heller, because he really didn't like the precedent from Miller that the 2nd amendment guaranteed an individual right to own military arms.
Which is the import of the preface.
Brett -
Scalia got the individual right correct in Heller for what I believe is the wrong reason. There were 3 (maybe 4 ) versions of 2a before the Senate settled on the final version, one of which (the first version as I recall) had strong indications of two rights, A) the right of the states to form militia's and B) the individual right. That is very consistent with the historical writings of the time of the right for the common defence and for self defence. Also note the proposal in the Senate to add the phrase "for common defence " after "the right to keep and bear arms" which was voted down.
Pennsylvania includes "for defense of Self and State" iirc.
Several of the states have both provisions for the common defence and self defence.
One of the claims that 2A doesnt protect the individual right is that 2A doesnt specifically mention the self defence right (ie matching several of the state constitutions). That argument is inane considering the proposal to limit the right during the senate debate to the common defence which was voted down. fwiw , Stevens dissent in Heller was very dishonest in his "historical analysis".
You keep saying that, but its not true.
Scalia expanded Miller to incude Self defense, but he didn't narrow it at all. If he narrowed Miller it would provide a line of attack on Heller. Miller upheld the NFA, and that decision was 80 years old, no way was there a window for Scalia to reverse that and hold his narrow majority.
I agree the NFA probably violtes the 2nd amendment, but that was not Scalia's doing.
"Well I think its self explanatory why the the militia clause of the second amendment would certainly ban weapons suitable for the militia."
I don't find it self-explanatory. Could you spell it out? The text is "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State", which does not explicitly speak to banning anything, and the language suggests at least a minimum set of arms that cannot be banned.
Did you miss this?
"Well I've been told its obvious and self explanatory, but come to think of it I've never actually seen or heard an explanation that makes sense."
He was being sarcastic.
Moved.
"...The courts of appeal that have upheld such bans openly flaunt the Court's jurisprudence...."
Is it possible that you meant 'flout,' rather than "flaunt?"
I think that very likely.
Why wouldn't you expect the circuits to flout Bruen, when the Court itself flouted Bruen in Rahimi?
There are long debates about how binding dicta is, and for the most part Bruen decision was very clear what they meant, but this is the key passage the Rahimi majority relied on including everyone on the Bruen majority except Thomas:
On the other hand, analogical reasoning requires only that the government identify a well-established and representative historical analogue, not a historical twin. So even if a modern-day regulation is not a dead ringer for historical precursors, it still may be analogous enough to pass constitutional muster.
Thomas wrote that passage, so his voice should be very authoritative when deciding what it meant, but not as authoritative as the 5 justices that signed on to Thomas's Bruen majority and made it law, who have their own idea about what they think it meant.
The majority said they thought the individualized determination Rahimi got was a close enough analogue peace bonds to pass constitutional muster, but certainly not a twin.
I don't think that is flaunting or flouting Bruen, I think its a good faith difference of opinion.
We shall see. I don't think laws requiring you to leave your guns at home unless you post a bond are actually good analogs for a law completely disarming you.
Any more than the fact that you can be subject to an injunction requiring you to not talk to a specific person would be a good analog for forcing somebody to entirely forego speaking, or the fact that you can be enjoined from going to a specific location would be a good analog for subjecting somebody to house arrest.
But the sad fact is, there aren't 5 votes on the Court to treat the 2nd amendment as guaranteeing a real, full blown constitutional right. 3 justices will uphold any gun control law whatsoever, and any law that 2 more of the justices kinda like is going to survive regardless of principle.
But I suspect that mostly the Court is just going to lay off taking 2nd amendment cases until one of the justices in the Rahimi majority is replaced.
Why AR-15's so necessary? We're moving into "Turner Diaries" and "Left Behind" territory. Or maybe Sandy Hook territory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkqfPuQhW9I
This question is consistent with your continually refusing to treat the 2nd amendment as guaranteeing an actual right.
Whether or not AR-15s are necessary is utterly irrelevant. Since owning them is a right, nothing hinges on necessity, the only relevant consideration is whether somebody WANTS one.
You might as well ask why romance novels are so necessary. It's a question the constitutional right status renders irrelevant.
'it's a right' doesn't short circuit the sociological question about why.
Read these threads, and you see the AR-15 of it all is generally about Civil War 2. Or some weird mass crime event where only the good man with a gun can stop it.
But then rights are often the provenance of the disreputable.
No, it just renders the question legally irrelevant.
And, yeah, the 2nd amendment, in the end, IS about Civil War 2.0. Or Revolutionary War 2.0, perhaps. You might not ideologically like that, but it IS a "break glass in case of emergency" constitutional provision, written by people who themselves were armed revolutionaries, and who weren't fatuous enough to think the government they were creating was guaranteed to never become a proper object of what they themselves had done.
1. Legally irrelevant is not the same as irrelevant.
2. You hate the US and want to leave the door open to Civil War 2. You area also in a permanent paranoid frenzy about liberals taking your gun and putting you in a camp.
You are not the poster child for gun rights being cool and good.
No, I love my country, which is exactly why I hate my government.
Yeah, I don't think you are contemplating shooting the country.
I'm not really urgently contemplating shooting the government, either. It's more of an "it's too late to buy a fire extinguisher once your house is on fire" thing. You don't buy guns to fight today's government, you buy them today because the government you would be fighting wouldn't LET you buy them. So it's either buy them when you DON'T need them, nor not have them when you do.
In fact, that's the self defeating aspect of gun control I think the gun controllers will never understand: The more they try to disarm people, the more people become convinced that they don't dare become disarmed.
Glad we are safe….so far.
Buttery like this is not the policy argument to make for gun rights.
We don't need to come up with "policy arguments for gun rights." We already have these rights, spelled out in the Constitution. It's just a question of (1) whether the government chooses to violate these rights, and (2) whether the courts choose to strike down such violations.
The Sarcastr0s of the world don't think the presence of a right in the text of the Constitution carries much weight at all, that you independently need to establish that it's a good idea, or else it's legitimate to violate it anyway.
Well, they'd say 'interpret it narrowly', or some such sophistry, but that's what it amounts to: Parts of the Constitution they don't like should be unenforced, while things they think SHOULD be in the Constitution SHOULD be enforced, even if they happen to not actually be in it.
From a practical standpoint, of course, we do need to make the argument, because the Constitution has no force if violating it is politically viable. It's not magic, the words by themselves can't compel obedience, you really do NEED to make violating it politically costly, which means persuading people that violating it is bad.
Sometimes that require policy arguments, even if the legal system, theoretically, should enforce the Constitution without them.
Gasloghto, explain why sodomy is a necessary right.
It is not biologically necessary, i.e. does not cause pregnancy, necessary to create the next generation, and it can spread disease (not just AIDS) which can and do kill people. So why can't we ban it?
No one is going to die because of the inability to sodomize, sooo???
I'm reminded of something my seventh-grade teacher told someone in my class. I forget what it was, but he was doing something infantile and gross. He said, "I can do it if I want to." She said, "Yes, but why do you want to?"
So, the relevant question isn't why AR-15s are "necessary", but why people want them, which is a different question. And a question which lacks any legal relevance, since, right.
I don't own an AR-15, I own a 9mm Calico. You'd probably ask the same question of me: Why did I want it?
I wanted it as an upraised finger to the Congress that had enacted the '94 AWB. I picked it as the firearm that had the most features they'd find offensive. If I could have found a chainsaw bayonet for it, I'd have gotten one, I was pissed.
The other factor was that I found the helical magazine mechanically interesting, (I am a mechanical engineer, after all.) and was contemplating designing firearms as a hobby at the time. I was thinking of building a .45LC version. Still might, once I retire, it would be a fun project.
In the end it turned out to be a fun plinking gun, (My wife agrees!) but I wish I'd gotten the .22 rimfire version, just so that keeping it fed would be cheaper.
But, back to the AR-15. It's actually highly recommended for hunting feral pigs here in the South; They're not easy to kill, they travel in packs, and they have a disturbing tendency to respond to being shot at by attacking, rather than running away. So pig hunters are advised to pack serious firepower.
Who says there is only one relevant question?
Also, owning a spite gun strikes me as extremely American.
"Also, owning a spite gun strikes me as extremely American."
Yeah, it is, isn't it? 😉
Yes it is. 😉
Yeah, I didn't choose a pejorative word on purpose. It is what it is.
Which if those words is pejorative?
"Spite", I assume.
Didn’t.
I didn’t choose a pejorative word.
You took my comment as the opposite of what I wrote.
I took you to mean you'd chosen one unintentionally, or unavoidably. Denying the purpose, not the choice.
" didn't [choose a pejorative word on purpose.] "
Rather than
"[didn't choose a pejorative word] on purpose. "
The .223 round to stop a pig -- unless you get very lucky at hitting a moving animal, I think the 3 rounds to kill would apply.
Ten states ban the .223 for hunting deer as inhumane -- too small.
I used to say that about my Marriage-a-Juan-a use.
Dan, see above about sodomy...
I don't know, maybe ask Jimmuh Cartuh (he'll be back any day now) Barry Hussein, Parkinsonian Joe, Cums-a-lot Harris, Sergeant Major Pepper Waltz, and Fancy Nancy Pelosi, all of whom (who?) are/were guarded by security armed with (actual) Assault Rifles
Frank
"The Snope court upheld Maryland's ban because supposedly the 9 mm cartridge, not the .223 caliber cartridge, is best for self-defense, oblivious to the fact that the ban is based on model and generic features, having nothing to do with caliber. Yet even though the majority use .223 rounds, there are AR-15 type rifles designed to fire 9 mm rounds, and they too are banned based on their features."
Maryland law does not ban pistol caliber ar-15 style rifles. The irony of Marylands ban is that it *only* bans 223/556*. So 300 blackout AR 15s, 350 legend, 9mm, 10mm, or any other calibers are legal (and "cash and carry"-- federal 4473 only).
I am hoping SC takes up Snopes... but lets not rely on false legal characterizations of the law. Its a silly ban of some guns from 1980s movies (Beretta BM59?!) and their "clones" plus a feature test. The reality is, you can buy an Ar 15 in maryland, even a 223 one, it just has to be labeled as having a heavy barrel.
*also so-called heavy barreled ar15s are legal. So Rugers stock AR 15 (Ar556) is legal because is has a "heavy barrel" lol.