The Volokh Conspiracy
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FLASHBACK: Glenn Greenwald: Pro-Israel sentiment in the U.S. is at least as bad for freedom of speech as Islamist terrorists murdering cartoonists
Greenwald's wild reaction to the Charlie Hebdo massacre ten years ago
My post from a decade ago is now behind a Washington Post paywall, but I reprint it below:
Apparently, the real lesson we should be learning from the murder of "blasphemous" French cartoonists is that American pro-Israel activists are at least as repressive as Islamist terrorists. That's because the former have purportedly created a "taboo" against criticizing Israel–a purported taboo, I should note, that Greenwald himself and many other bloggers, along with every major American newspaper and left-of-center journal, violate regularly, and one that somehow doesn't stop professors hostile to Israel from dominating Middle East Studies Departments in universities across the United States, such that the actual taboo in such departments is to express sympathy for Israel. Here's the money quote, which comes at the end of Greenwald's post:
That [criticizing Israel] is a real taboo – a repressed idea – as powerful and absolute as any in the United States, so much so that Brooks won't even acknowledge its existence. It's certainly more of a taboo in the U.S. than criticizing Muslims and Islams, which is in mainstream circles including the U.S. Congress – that one barely notices it any more. This underscores the key point: there are all sorts of ways ideas and viewpoints are suppressed in the west. When those demanding publication of these anti-Islam cartoons start demanding the affirmative publication ofthose ideas as well, I'll believe the sincerity of their very selective application of free speech principles. One can defend free speech without having to publish, let alone embrace, the offensive ideas being targeted. But if that's not the case, let's have equal application of this new principle.
The article is full of logical fallacies, and suggests that Greenwald doesn't understand why Charlie Hebdo was targeted (hint: it wasn't because of an allegedly offensive reference to Boko Haram's sex slaves), apparently doesn't understand what "blasphemy" means and certainly appears to believe that Der Sturmer-like anti-Semitic cartoons are the moral and logical equivalent of making fun of Moses or Muhammed. Put another way, what Greenwald is saying, in practice, is that until hostility to Israel becomes popular in the U.S., such that there is not even a prospect of social sanction for expressing it, and such that anti-Israel sentiment is expressed as often as Greenwald thinks it should be, pro-Israel advocates are at least as bad as Islamist terrorists. This, let's remember, is from a guy who many, including some of my libertarian friends, hold up as a poster boy for civil liberties. I can only imagine what other profound lesson Greenwald thinks we should draw from the murder by Islamist terrorists of four French Jews in a kosher supermarket in Paris today, but I'm guessing that it also has something to do with Israel.
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At least Greenwald is sufficiently famous now relative to the VC that I don't expect him to show up in sock puppet form the way he used to...
Perhaps this link is what you wanted: https://znetwork.org/znetarticle/in-solidarity-with-a-free-press-some-more-blasphemous-cartoons/
I'd instead suggest this link, which actually contains all of the language he quoted (the final several sentences are missing from the ZNetwork version).
Islam is evil and we need to start recognizing that.
Dr Ed is evil and we need to start recognizing that.
More concretely, the attacks demonstrate that Islamism is a true threat to the lives of its neighbors if they speak the truth about it. And for that reason it must never be granted the freedom of expression that religions themselves deserve (including Islam when it is not Islamism).
I mean....I'm generally supportive of your posts, but....
It's a 10 year old post from a political commentator. Maybe let it go? Or see if there's anything more up to date?
The difference is that now Greenwald is both even more influential, and perhaps more significant, is embraced by a lot of people who should know better.
He also has an undeserved reputation as a civil libertarian and free speech advocate. He hates the US government and the liberal establishment, and thus winds up on the free speech side for that reason, but his reaction to Charlie Hebdo belies any real commitment to free speech, or even an understanding of what free speech means.
Greenwald has a certain alternative set of viewpoints. Some I agree with. Some I don't. I generally appreciate hearing the alternative viewpoint, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. I feel he's somewhat naive on the Israel issue for my taste.
What I will say is that he has written quite a lot. And perhaps it may be better to examine and criticize some of his newer articles (for example the below link), rather than an item that is 10 years old. Just a thought. People do evolve in their positions over time.
https://reason.com/podcast/2024/05/29/glenn-greenwald-defund-israel-and-free-assange/
He has had ample opportunity to retract his views from the Charlie Hebdo episode, for which he received significant criticism at the time. There is no reason to think his views have changed. He's not "naive" about Israel. He hates the US government, hates any allies of the US government, and, in direct debate with me many years, declined to recognize *any* military action that Israel could take against Hamas that would be legitimate, meaning in effect that he believes that Israel must surrender to Hams. That's not naive, that's evil based on ideology.
He hates the US government, hates any allies of the US government...
Professor, I was not aware that Greenwald hated America. On what do you base this?
US government, not “America.”
Thx for reinforcing the distinction. Is it fair to say that Greenwald's hatred of US government is due to foreign policy actions; or, is this hatred ideologically driven?
The antisemitism....sigh. Perhaps Greenwald will change. Hope so.
Heck, *I* hate the US government. Hating the US government can go hand in hand with loving America; Our own government will never be our worst enemy as long as China is around, but they're probably our most effective enemy.
But the antisemitism is pretty undeniable.
While the distinction is valid, I'm not sure that there are any institutions in the United States, public or private, that he doesn't hate.
Anyway, his hatred for the US government will evaporate in 12 days.
Unlikely. Trump did enough in his first term for me to dislike, after all, for all that I found him somewhat entertaining, and less threatening to our liberties than the alternative.
Besides, even if I were the Trump fanboy you imagine I am, he's hardly going to be in control on day 1. If he's fully in control of the executive branch by day 600, I'll be massively impressed.
While your pronouns may also be he/him, I was referring to Greenwald, not you, with my statements.
"He's not "naive" about Israel. He hates the US government...."
I don't think that's quite accurate. Again, Greenwald has an alternative viewpoint. In particular, Greenwald is anti-war. Not just in regards to Israel, but in regards to basically all wars. He feels they are basically never justified. You can draw an analogy to a man who abhors violence and refuses any and all violence whatever the situation.
Both views, in some respect are commendable. It's commendable to want peace, to abhor violence. But...also both views can be considered naive. If you have bad men come into your house, steal your stuff, rape your daughter, enslave your son...and you continue to say "I won't fight back, and I condemn anyone who would fight these people...violence is wrong". That just means the bad men "win" and continue their actions...they face no consequences and get what they want. It's naive. A certain amount of violence to stop bad actors can be justified to stop the greater harms. If the police have to physically restrain someone in order to stop them from murdering someone else...that can be justified.
Greenwald sits on the "war is always wrong" side, like the "violence is always wrong" side. To engage in such a discussion with such people, one really needs to get back to basics. Greenwald will point to specific incidents, specific issues, especially from target groups that may be persuadable. He's going to try to persuade the proverbial "good guys" or "police"....rather than the bad guys.
The topic needs to be turned around. Use Hamas, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq. Ask pointedly...if Iraq or Syria invades Israel, does Israel have a right to defend itself. (He hesitates on that...when asked if a country has a right to exist, he says "I think the concept of the right to exist for any nation I think is a difficult one.") You need to nail him on whether war is EVER acceptable. And if it's not, don't the "bad people just win?" If ONLY the bad people can use war as a tactic, and the "good" people can't use it to defend themselves, what happens? Use the analogy of a non-violent person who gets rid of the police.
He will try to get back to specific incidents. You need to get back to essential logic on it. He's not "evil based on ideology"...he's got a worldview that war is always bad...but hasn't really, fully, gone through the process of what happens if only "bad people" can engage in war, and "good people" don't.
Armchair, I appreciate the link. The interview transcript was very informative. His views are a definite mixed bag, there is something for everyone.
Public opinion about Israel has shifted in those 10 years. Criticizing Israel is not so taboo anymore.
It wasn't taboo then, though people were *much* less likely to be openly antisemitic and openly pro-Hamas/terrorism/rape, kidnapping and murder of civilians, etc. As I wrote at the time, Greenwald himself was a harsh critic of Israel, as were almost all commentators on the issue on the left.
What Greenwald seems to mean by taboo is "i recognize that Israel is evil, and since I'm always right about everything, everyone else must realize that Israel is evil too, and the only reason they don't say so is the taboo in question." See also Waltz and Mearsheimer, who more explicitly argued that Israel's badness is so self-evidence that the fact that it's not universally recognized and acted upon is the nefarious influence of the "israel lobby."
Yeah, murdering a whole office is not as bad as calling someone names.
Up is down, Down is Up.
I wonder what prompted this. In any event, despite my extreme antipathy towards DB, it turns out there is common ground to be had— Greenwald is despicable. My only surprise in seeing this curiously recycled is GG’s turn towards Trumpism. One would have thought he could have bought himself some immunity? Then again— a feature of these kinds of… ahem… movements is the tendency to consume its own, most sycophantic, members. Perhaps something to contemplate for our contributors…?
Greenwald is an interesting case, he seems at least borderline anti-Semitic, but on other things its hard to pigeonhole him.
He is fanatically anti-war, except for Hamas, and that includes letting Putin have his way with Ukraine.
It might just be that like most of us when he cares deeply about a subject, like Palestine, he loses perspective and his thought processes be one cloudy.
He was however one of the earlier voices on the left to see that Russiagate was bullshit, and that might be because he has never had confidence in the US intelligence and foreign policy apparatus so he was never prepared to take there bald assertions at face value.
He seems much more ready to take any utterance of Hamas or its UN enablers as gospel.
At least he can write well, that almost makes up for being wildly inconsistent.
1) He is not on the left. The left kind of adopted him for a while because he was anti-Bush, and so they assumed he was on their side.
2) Russiagate was not bullshit. Russia worked to get Trump elected, and Trump was aware of and welcomed Russia's support.
Greenwald's journey from Code Pink-hero to MAGA-darling has been ... interesting. It also illustrates the bizarre adoption by the many on the right of the Howard Zinn view of history.
Another thing I recall about Greenwald were his oddly pro-Russian/Putin statements, long before the Ukraine invasion. They were especially jarring given how Putin's policies conflict with his, err, choice of lifestyle [/Smithers]. I think it was in connection with the Snowden affair, but may well be mistaken. He was so over the top, that I wondered if he was on the payroll.
Yes, this is definitely a highly respected intellectual of the left. (Taken from his Substack, which he seems to have ended.)
tl;dr, but your last two paragraphs are spot on.
What you may have missed is that these lies by Big Media are not unorganized or even independent. They are the direct results of CIA's Operation Mockingbird and its sequels. Have a look at Joe Rogan's interview with Mike Benz:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrJhQpvlkLA
From The Intercept, in 2020:
Wow, dude. It's extremely rude and inconsiderate to make readers scroll through 10+ page long indiscriminate cut and pastes rather than linking to and perhaps excerpting whatever specific material you thought was so amazingly relevant.
I'd really prefer not to block you, but you may have just scored a few of those from less patient folks.
If Bernstein can quote a long, old, and irrelevant Greenwald screed on the front page of the blog, I don't see why I can't do the same a day later in the comments section.
I'm supremely confident you're not that clueless. Bernstein quoted half a dozen sentences. You quoted nearly 200 paragraphs.
Also, I don't think Reason needs to wait for author/copyright holder to complain before removing excessive quote which clearly doesn't fit fair use guidelines.
At what point does Reason have an obligation to stop excessive quotes which clearly don't fit fair use guidelines? Only when author/copyright holder complains?
Martinned congrats in killing this thread by rendering it unreadable.
I wonder if you'd have written that if the quoted essays had been more in agreement with your own views.
It would be nice if comments had access to "under the fold", of course. But it's worth seeing that, even if he's an antisemite, Greenwald isn't reliably wrong about everything. Of course, very few people are reliably wrong about everything.
On the second essay, my son remarked this morning that Zuck was looking more animated than he had in years. Perhaps he really did not like going along with the censorship cartel, and is glad to have the government's back in escaping it, rather than the government demanding he be part of it?
Brett, quit it.
They were quoted for the thesis Glenn was bad. They establish that quite well.
They were quoted for the thesis that Genn was bad in Martinned's opinion, and certainly not of the left, but in the opinion of a lot of Americans the sentiments expressed are actually somewhat redeeming.
Now, I know what you find objectionable about the first essay, but perhaps you'd care to point out exactly what offended you about the 2nd? Zuck has pretty much confirmed in recent statements that he wasn't terribly happy about FB being forced into the censorship cartel, and is glad he's going to have the incoming administration's back in bailing from it.
Quit with the telepathy Brett, for fuck's sake.
I didn't read the second post. I don't plan to.
Unsurprised you agree with whatever bullshit opinion Glenn the authoritarian lover has about America.
"I didn't read the second post. I don't plan to."
Yeah, kind of figured.
"Unsurprised you agree with whatever bullshit opinion Glenn the authoritarian lover has about America."
Unsurprised I agree with something you won't read, and thus don't know the contents of... LOL! Never change, Sarcastr0, the world needs proof stereotypes have a basis in reality.
I seriously doubt he read the first one either. Probably just tweaked on the "media lies about Jan. 6" headline.
They were quoted for the thesis that, whatever your politics are, you'd have to agree that Greenwald's batting average is pretty poor. Trumpists, centrists, and leftist might disagree about which 5% of his writings makes sense, but they should all be able to agree that 95% of it is garbage, making him pretty much irrelevant to all.
Up until now, I'd barely read anything by Greenwald, so he's certainly irrelevant to me. I haven't read anything like a representative sample of his writings, but the above examples didn't seem particularly bad.
Did you miss the OP?
I was referring to the ones Martined reprinted, not the one referred to in the OP. I do keep saying that he's obviously an antisemite, you notice. I don't like antisemites one bit.
But it won't stop me from noticing when they write something on another topic that I agree with.
The quoted essays are in agreement with my own views: Greenwald is batshit insane and a liar.
Trolls cheering on trolls.
https://thespectator.com/topic/why-glenn-greenwald-backs-putin/
Few things are sure in life: death, taxes and Glenn Greenwald advocating whatever position happens to be in the interests of Vladimir Putin
I could have posted the entire article, of course.
Greenwald has said that he was inspired to get into journalism by Noam Chomsky.
When the first refugees from the Killing Fields of Cambodia and told their stories of torture and genocide, Chomsky said that they were CIA plants, and not to be believed. He cared about America's role in the Viet Nam war, and not at all about the murder of 25% of the Cambodian people by communists. THAT is who still inspires Greenwald. A literal genocide apologist.
Racial hatred makes you stupid
Greenwald is a silly person. THey are so different that no normal person would have anything but scorn for such a hateful mindless statement.
This led inexorably to pro-lifers are as bad as abortionists who don't just get on with the job of killing babies for profit.
SO to keep foolish foolish Greenwald happy you should have NO standards.
I don't know if either would admit to this, but perhaps the most interesting aspect of Professor Bernstein resurrecting this issue at this time is that both the Professor and Glenn Greenwald seem to be supporters of Donald Trump's 2024 election bid.
The closest analogy I can find to this is the coalition Franklin Roosevelt assembled in 1932, which ranged from far-left socialists to southern racist reactionaries. Not a direct fit in this situation, admittedly.