The Volokh Conspiracy
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Here We Go Again: Federal Judges Should Review Prosecutions From The Trump DOJ "Through a Different Lens"
No "Presumption of Regularity" for Trump 2.0
A common thread during the first Trump Administration was that this presidency was not "normal" and courts should not "normalize" it. Advocates and scholars on the left argued that the Trump administration should not be entitled to the "presumption of regularity." Professor Dawn Johnson, for example, lectured the Seventh Circuit Judicial Conference that "Courts attend to reality and context, and they can and should adapt their screens of deference when circumstances so indicate." And so on. I wrote about these developments at some length.
Now, with Trump 2.0 about to start, we are already seeing similar pleas. In The New York Times, Nancy Gertner (a retired Clinton appointee) and Joel Cohen (a retired prosecutor) offer advice of how judges should review prosecutions by the Trump DOJ:
In previous administrations, federal trial judges have had generally well-founded confidence that the Justice Department and the post-Hoover F.B.I., under presidents from either party, have not been employed to attack political enemies. Most district judges — especially those who have served as federal prosecutors, as most have — believe that the prosecutors appearing before them act with integrity, that their offices are not being manipulated to undermine those who challenged the current administration or its leader.
A judge could assume that the warrant has gone through layers of approval within the Justice Department, even reaching the assistant attorney general in charge of the criminal division, an extremely high ranking official in the department. That judge could also be reasonably confident that very little, if anything, would be amiss after passing through the layers of the approval process, including senior department officials.
But with the astonishing comments from the president-elect and his appointments, it is reasonable to ask if judges can still assume that level of confidence in the review process. The previous assumption that prosecutions would be undertaken only against individuals suspected of committing crimes may be wrong.
Now, when judges are asked to review warrant applications, or any other ex parte submissions from the government, they should do so through a different lens, much more scrupulously than ever before.
Nothing new here. We've heard it all before.
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“In previous administrations, federal trial judges have had generally well-founded confidence that the Justice Department and the post-Hoover F.B.I., under presidents from either party, have not been employed to attack political enemies.”
Yeah. Right.
Lock her up!
That was famously not said by someone in the DOJ, unlike this text-message exchange:
lol, yeah, two agents trumps a two party nominee (and President)!
Are you really that ignorant of history? Do you think others will forget all that history just because you pretend every other administration has kept their hands off prosecutors? Does the name J. Edgar Hoover mean nothing to you? Joe McCarthy? John Adams?
I don't know who you think you are fooling besides yourself, but it's a lost cause.
I don’t know what you’re talking about (and that makes both of us).
Your cerebral paralysis due to TDS both election and treatment resistant. It is going to be a long four years.
Let me pass on Fetterman's advice: Chill out.
Yes, we're all aware of your deliberate ignorance.
lol, yeah, two agents trumps a two party nominee (and President)!
... and an out-of-context private text message between friends somehow compares to multiple public campaign promises
Not texts just between friends you pathetic clown. Texts between a top FBI counterintelligence agent leading the bureau’s fraudulent Russian collusion investigation targeting President Trump and an FBI lawyer.
Sorry, you're right. Text messages between
friendslovers.Amazingly, to show their appreciation, the Biden Administration gave them (Strzok and Page) their pensions back this year.
Don't forget the sweet sweet $2 million judgement they won against the FBI for leaking their private texts.
Remember how Trump famously didn't prosecute Hillary, despite the fact that she probably did commit some pretty serious federal crimes?
Why yes, we do remember that Trump wanted to and his own lawyers said he couldn't. From Nov 20, 2018:
https://apnews.com/article/060ca2399a744b4a9554dbd2ec276a90
The White House lawyers objected because the principle is "first you find the crime, then you find the perpetrator", not the reverse as was practiced by those prosecuting Trump.
Trump was in an impossible position. His lawyers told him that couldn't violate that principle even though they knew that the DOJ wouldn't pursue any crime that might lead to a Democrat politician or a DOJ comrade. He had to choose between letting criminals go free, or face impeachment. He made the least bad decision and got impeached anyway.
If Trump is smart (not likely) he will forego any investigations of Democrats and concentrate on his economic program. If in the course of implementing his tax cut and deregulation program, he is actively opposed by bureaucrats, the solution is firing them not prosecuting them. However, in the Fauci like cases, prosecution for perjury may be necessary.
What? You just made that all up from nothing! None of that is true.
Unless you have a transcript of the conversations between Trump and his attorneys, you statement is meaningless.
Actually Randal's point is that your statement is utter bullshit because you pulled it hot and steamy straight from your ass.
It's your fiction to prove, and we all know you can't.
Then provide an alternate explanation that is more plausible. Yes, what I wrote was speculation, only an idiot would fail to recognize this since no one has access to the actual conversations.
Would you guess that Trump's lawyers were all in on stopping Trump? Sounds rather conspiratorial. Or perhaps they all are dedicated defenders of the Constitution? They would be the first presidential advisors holding those principles.
The source for the claims is the New York Times, an organization that is hardly non-partisan. How many anonymous sources did the Times use? The AP report didn't say. The AP report had one source not the Times which spoke on the condition of anonymity.
Considering the past history of the AP and the Times, there is no reason to believe anything related to Trump.
The alternative explanation, you dumb fuck, is that McGahn (a lawyer) told Trump what the law (shocking) would permit.
You don't get to tell someone else that their explanation is 'meaningless' without transcripts, and at the same time pretend your imaginary transcript-free bullshit is somehow a reliable interpretation.
Add in your comments about how the AP and Times can't be trusted, and that no previous presidential advisors would ever defend the Constitution, and the only reasonable conclusion here is that you're just another dumb, Trump-supporting piece of shit who has no business existing in my country.
I'm well aware that Trump was using empty threats of prosecution as a political tool. "Lock her up!" was a political chant that fooled the rubes quite nicely, but didn't set forth an actionable basis for prosecution.
I have the same prediction regarding Liz Cheney: Trump is bloviating because his fragile ego got bruised. The rubes are slurping it down, but she won't be prosecuted. Because there's no actual crime to prosecute her for.
Likely responses to the above prediction: "but but but witness tampering!!1!".
Which is more unsupported fodder for the rubes, not an coherent explanation of actual facts supporting an actionable violation of the U.S. Code. Keep those kneepads handy, and keep slurping.
re: "the principle is 'first you find the crime, then you find the perpetrator'"
There is no such principle. Maybe that's how it should be but that's not how law has ever been practiced in reality. Variations of "show me the man and I'll show you the crime" have been found back to the 16 and 1700s and that principle applied back to Roman times and before.
First, I don't believe everything I read in the papers. Second, it is not wrong -- even if politically unwise -- to seek to prosecute persons who have committed serious crimes even if those persons got a pass in the past because of their politics. Third, I don't agree that the president would not have the power to order a prosecution, assuming, of course, that there was probable cause to proceed. I think that as the chief executive, he would have that power.
I was going to say "Oh, Really?!?
I;d love to see Carolyn Levatt say "Sorry, NYT, we're giving your seat at press conferences to the Nevada Mining News because they're more credible.
It's Karoline Leavitt. But yes, I agree that would be cool.
At least do away with preferential seating. Let the NYT folks scramble with the Mining News staff for front row seats.
Leavitt was brutalized by the press when she ran for the NH House Seat -- I doubt she's forgotten it.
I don't know the federal standard for judicial review of a warrant application, but in my state there's no deference given to law enforcement applications of any sort, nor should there be. The internal review process exits to ensure that only meritorious applications are presented. Judges know of tbat process. It may create an expectation that they will receive only valid requests, but that expectation does not constitute any sort of presumption of regularity. It's no different than seeing a lawyer with a good reputation in one's court. The judge expects to hear good arguments from that lawyer, but there's certainly no presumption that that side will win the case or any deference given by the court to that attorney.
" there's no deference given to law enforcement applications of any sort, "
I hope not, but if e.g. you spend time reading about the Goines incident in Houston, it seems like that wasn't the only bad warrant, and he wasn't the only officer cutting corners. Those got past the judges.
When a door falls off a 737, Boeing's assurances that their QC inspectors are totally on top of things gives pause.
Not trying to hate on judges in general; just pointing out that eternal vigilance is a requirement. Their job is to smell something amiss before you get a Goines.
Not aware of the "Goines incident in Houston." I agree that there are bad judges who do a bad job of reviewing warrant applications.
A quick Control-C/Control-V often does wonders for awareness:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Goines+incident+in+Houston
or
https://www.google.com/search?q=Goines+incident+in+Houston
or
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Goines+incident+in+Houston
Etc.
No need to be snarky.
Sorry; sadly, lmgtfy.com shut down a while ago so longhand is the only play for situations like this.
Overview.
It was a pretty prominent case of police lying on warrants. The wiki article doesn't do a deep dive, but other coverage indicates it wasn't an isolated incident.
Here's another prominent example.
It was a door PLUG -- where there wasn't a door.
This actually is worse because Boeing could argue wear and poor maintenance on a door that is opened with some degree of frequency.
"Now, when judges are asked to review warrant applications, or any other ex parte submissions from the government, they should do so through a different lens, much more scrupulously than ever before."
I'm happy to have judges scrupulously review warrants, at all times, whoever is president. Judges aren't supposed to be rubber stamps. If they have been lax in the past they should certainly reform, and continue that vigilance for all presidents to come. And if they have been too lax in the past, shame on them.
Exactly! Previous Presidents and Attorneys General might've been less enthusiastic about using the judicial process to persecute their political and ideological enemies, and they've certainly been more circumspect about it, but the temptation's always been there, and the judges who sign off on the warrants are supposed to be a check on such abuses of power. The fact that Trump is a loudmouth whereas presidents like Nixon and Obama were less likely to brag about their misconduct doesn't mean that the latter were necessarily worthy of unreserved trust.
As Old Smokin Egg mentions, with one significant difference - Trump was and is a loudmouth about what he would like to do but didnt do, whereas Nixon, Obama , Biden were quite about what they were doing.
I have a list of six evidences they went after Trump as an opponent, and not because of disinterested concern for rule of law. Among them are the sheer number of initiatives, as well sending investigation info down to New York, "just in case" he pardons himself.
But the best, that exposes their dirty underwear, were the impeachments, especially the first one. They ripped through papers, cavalierly unconcerned. I suggested maybe they should adhere to the spirit of ths 4th Amend....nope! We get the honor of turning impeachment against a foe because he is a foe and it's purely political.
Yeahhhhhh. When you don't have to skip sucker punching people while people watch, you leapt right to it, joyously, happily. I don't begrudge the emotion, but you can hardly say it's disinterested concern for rule of law.
“they went after Trump as an opponent, and not because of disinterested concern for rule of law.”
Uh, like Trump’s “perfect phone call?”
Perhaps your feigned ignorance extends to Biden threatening Ukraine with withholding $$$ if they investigated his son and Ukraine cronies for that sweetheart $1 million a year salary for doing nothing, and then impeaching Trump when he threatened to withhold $$$ if they didn't investigate clan Biden's crony corruption. A sham impeachment even sillier than Andrew Johnson's and Clinton's, and Clinton did at least lie under oath, as silly as it was.
Nonsense. There is no evidence anyone in Ukraine did or was even planning to investigate Biden's son. And Trump's quid pro quo was not "to investigate", but to announce an investigation--purely to serve Trump's political purposes.
Clinton should have been convicted in the Senate, and Trump, too (twice).
As that laptop showed, there was far more than enough probabl;e cause for an investigation.
An "investigation" in Ukraine in 2019?
IIRC, the strongest "evidence" in the laptop concerned events which took place in 2017--after Biden had left office and was again a private citizen. Joe Biden was in no position to influence Ukraine at that point, one way or the other.
The laptop of course did not show anything of the kind. How stupid do you people have to be to not realize that even James Comer couldn't find a single shred of evidence of any wrongdoing by Joe Biden? Not one penny from any foreign source. He was so desperate to show some results that he tried to tout three installments of $1,500 that James Biden paid back to him for loan repayment, until everyone laughed at him and then he dropped it.
Hunter Biden of course did not pay all his taxes, but that had nothing to do with Trump calling up Ukraine and demanding that they announce an investigation of Joe Biden.
You mean when a bureaucrat released classified information went unpunished and is now a congressman?
they went after Trump as an opponent
They went after Trump as a high-profile criminal. Which is something DAs do all the time. Normally, the public likes to see high-profile criminals prosecuted. Trump, as half the country's cult leader / priest, is a special case, not because he was prosecuted, but because people apparently don't want his crimes to be prosecuted. So... whatever.
Ever heard of lying low? That means don't make yourself a target. Trump made himself a target, and DAs took notice. There's no conspiracy here, if anything Trump got kid gloves compared to anyone else equally high-profile committing a series of public felonies.
They went after Trump as a high-profile criminal.
As someone mentioned at the top, it's a problem when you find the perpetrator first, then go looking for a crime. No, he's not a high profile criminal. That's your derangement talking.
(Full disclosure: I've never voted for Trump, think him unfit for any office let alone the presidency. But I'm also not impaired by any derangement syndrome, that I want to trample the rule of law to get him by any means.)
The feds have always gone after "high profile criminals".
Should they have treated Trump any differently?
it's a problem when you find the perpetrator first, then go looking for a crime
That bears no resemblance to what happened. We all saw Trump's crimes as they unfolded. There was no fishing expedition required (as opposed to, say, Hunter Biden, for whom there very much was).
There was no fishing expedition with Hunter Biden.
Oh really? You knew all along that he had possessed a gun illegally and cheated on his taxes? How on earth did you know?
There was a laptop which he left behind.
Ah yes, because it's totally normal for the FBI to go trolling through people's laptops looking for crimes. Plus, the laptop wasn't even used in the tax case, that was just Republican Congressmen colluding with partisan IRS employees to dig up dirt.
Yes, we all saw them. That's why it took 2+ years to charge him with anything, despite them being incredibly obvious. And the core of the federal "stolen election" charge (not mishandling classified docs) was a novel, unprecedented defrauding the United States. In other words, not at all clear. Which is why I dispute that we all saw his crimes. Because the indictments don't reflect that. People wanted to criminalize him trying to "steal" the election, yet couldn't find any applicable federal violations. And his finger prints were not on the "fake electors", at best state violations.
Which is why I said above, prosecutors identified the perpetrator (Trump) then went searching for a crime. Because they deluded themselves that trying to "steal" an election with lawsuit chicanery and public bluster was somehow criminal. It wasn't
(NB: the election was not stolen, that was all BS)
These days, unfitness for office is a relative thing. My desideratum is "Vote for the person least likely to get me killed or send me to jail". I've never lived in a "battleground state" so for me, voting is just something to occupy time.
Yes, they went after Trump because of his views, and because he was running a popular campaign for President.
Yes, the vast, leftwing conspiracy...
I will welcome a lot more skepticism from the Justice department. However, I cannot condone this being confined to Trump's case. We have seen the DOJ persecute political opponents essentially since its founding.
What appears to be the situation now is that Trump is a wolf's head who can be targeted with impunity by any nonsensical law that exists or the prosecution decides should exist on this particular day. However, even normal actions that he takes like personal lawsuits or accusations of libel are met with suspicion and anger.
Just last week, there was a discussion about how horrifying it was that Trump was personally suing some media companies about election interference, while ignoring the fact that he was criminally prosecuted for the exact same thing with an even shakier basis of interference.
"while ignoring the fact that he was criminally prosecuted for the exact same thing with an even shakier basis of interference."
That's because you're full of shit.
Anything else that you need cleared up?
Ummm, he's also said, and appointed people who have said, that they would specifically persecute political opponents, if elected/confirmed.
That is new, isn't it?
Even if this is true, the only thing new is that they aren't hiding it.
And to be honest, I don't trust the reporting on this. It's so blazingly partisan that I expect to be 100% lied to.
I'm sure you're right, depending very much on which news you choose to "consume".
However, I'm curious what your solution to this problem is. Believe nothing? Believe only the source you most want to be true?
Mine is to: (a) research the integrity of all my news sources, (b) consume news from multiple sources, and (c) make my own decisions after performing the amount of evaluation commensurate with the importance of the information to me.
In practice, this means that I will browse the "news of the day" from just a few sources I have already evaluated as reasonably trustworthy, but if I want to learn more about a particular topic I expand my efforts to include more and more varied sources, possibly even dipping into lunatic fringe sources, just to see what they're saying (and as a preview of what I will eventually see repeated blindly here).
Ah yes, Bayes Analysis! I wish more people were aware of the principle.
ObviousltNotSpam’s methodology has nothing to do with Bayesian analysis.
I'm curious why you think that. The a-b-c steps certainly reflect Bayes-theory principles of how the mind reaches and then uses prior beliefs relevant to the credibility of new information. The a-b steps are acts completed prior to receiving new information, and the c step is the classic Bayesian likely probability determination.
ONS's second paragraph adding after-Bayes fact-finding and further opinion, does not negate the Bayesian nature of the methodology used before that point.
Yes, it does sound like good advice.
I don’t think they should change but to be clear Trump and his followers are often happy to say he’s bringing unprecedented disruption to the federal government.
And no other politician had ever promised change, with or without hope?
Changing policies isn't the same thing as destroying institutions.
Except that's exactly what Democrats have been doing over the last 20 years, to try and get their way.
They wanted to abolish the Senate filibuster and pack the Supreme Court, when it looked like they might maintain control of the presidency and the Senate. Now, not so much. The principle of DOJ not prosecuting political opponents only applies to Republican administrations. Because Trump deserved it, obviously.
Republicans weren't the ones who started filibustering appeals court judicial nominees and then abolished the judicial filibuster. Democrats did, before Trump ever considered running for the presidency. Norms norms norms norms!
Impressive. You listed a bunch of things Democrats didn't do (but Republicans sure like to talk about anyway) in order to justify Trump's intentions. I'm afraid your partisan spin has become so powerful it spawned a tornado in your brain that wiped out all intelligent life there.
They absolutely did those things (filibustering judge nominations then abolishing the judicial filibuster), all the while complaining about the other guys destroying norms.
They absolutely wanted to abolish the filibuster completely, only Manchin and Sinema prevented that, and subsequently various Democrats expressed publicly a desire to pack (AKA expand) the Supreme Court, explicitly because of Dobbs. As well as passing the Democrat ideal of election "reform".
Even though Trump led campaign rally chants of "lock her up", but his first administration never pursued prosecuting Hillary. Meanwhile, the Biden administration absolutely made the unprecedented decision to prosecute Trump, also unprecedentedly waiving his executive privilege. (I know, I know, just like the battered wife, you don't count this because Trump and her deserve it, so it doesn't count.)
Various Democrats are proud of these things, and have said they should have gone further or been pursued more vigorously. I'm confused why you would deny any of that.
Yes, it did.
Josh appears to be confused. He is in favor of federal judges throwing out the presumption of regularity and looking at whether the administration is improperly motivated. See, for example, much of his commentary on the Trump prosecutions.
All citizens should always look at motivations of people in power. These are people with the gift of gab, leading around credophiles who wear "I Want To Believe" T-shirts, and see nothing dishonest with choosing positions for hidden, self-serving reasons, then spitting up pro and con lists for a surface sheen of nothing to do with it.
A task made somewhat easier when the people in question loudly proclaim that they intend to persecute their political enemies.
The question is not motivation, but whether or not there is evidence of a crime. It make no difference whether the chief executive is ecstatic or depressed over a potential prosecution.
This kind of thinking, paired with advocacy for a legal double standard is precisely what lost the election for Kamala.
Better, the belief that Trump should be the beneficiary of a legal standard helped win the election for Trump.
You and your fellow cult members genuinely believe that Trump is above the law.
Further, as a matter of a logic that Josh fails to grasp, when any Executive announces his intentions of using the DoJ against his enemies, judges should take him at his word. After all, judges should not have to presume that the Executive is lying about his intentions.
From what I gather, Commenter has been saying that just about everything that annoys him is why Harris (I mean "Kamala") lost.
In fact, the sum of those things is why Ms Harris, one of the least accomplished of all vide-presidents, lost.
People who are 7 short scolding posts over the span of about 6 minutes are why RFK Jr. lost.
You can tell who the bad faith partisans are on here by the way they dodge and weave about whether "Kamala" was a bad candidate or not. They are some of the people who, right up until the moment they applauded Pelosi pushing out Biden, were decrying the "cheap fakes".
If there's one thing you can say about MAGA, they are not shy about articulating that McCain and Romney were bad candidates. (Even if they weren't. I was happy to vote for both, and not Trump.) Those prior candidates were bad because they didn't do the contemporaneous equivalent of mean tweets, which MAGA values above all else.
You can’t stay on topic either eh?
Lotta that going around.
You're the one who brought up Harris. I was responding to that.
Endless bad faith.
Dole, too. Dole was a gun controller who had cleared the way for the Brady Bill and '94 AWB, and literally threatened the NRA leadership that, if they dared oppose him in the primaries, he'd open the flood gates to anti-gun legislation. Once he secured the nomination he went on a national tour sticking it to every key Republican interest group; He wasn't campaigning for President, the nomination had just been his retirement gold watch.
McCain's whole shtick was being a 'maverick' who supplied the Republican vote to turn Democratic bills into supposedly 'bipartisan' legislation. Obviously that's what Republicans want in a nominee, right? Somebody who has multiply betrayed them to help the Democrats win.
Romney was obviously the ideal lead guy in fighting Obamacare, right?
The GOP establishment had a bad habit of foisting on the base nominees who the base knew actually opposed them on major issues. That's why Trump had a shot at the nomination in 2016: Because he clearly was NOT the establishment's pick, and yet had the resources to survive their attempt to freeze him out. And by 2016 being the establishment's pick was the kiss of death.
[Citation needed], as the wikipedia editors say.
The thing is, this isn't so much as a lie as it is bullshit. It's not that you know it's false; you don't have any idea and don't care. I will bet my kids' college funds that you did not actually study the accomplishments of the 48 people who held the office before her in order to make that a legitimate claim.
No, you and your fellow cult members genuinely believe that he's beneath the law. So, instead of a presumption of innocence, he gets a presumption of guilt.
Brett's making presumptions about other people's presumptions!
C'mon. You get trolled so easily.
Brett does not troll. He means it!
You gave away the game, Don Nico! LOL. 😉
Brett living in Gas0's head
f
Poor Sarc.
LMAO
He get a presumption of not being full of shit? Or do you want to convince us that we shouldn't take Trump at his word because he's a con man who doesn't believe anything he says?
All polls are this way, always. All positions are for self-serving, hidden reasons. I eternally feel like Matthew Broderick at the end of Wargames, "Learn, dammit! Learn!"
That kind of unnuanced cynicism is where authoritarianism thrives.
No. We think Trump thins he's above the law, as do you.
Do you have any idea how many absurd defenses of his misconduct - crimes, bankruptcies, civil fraud, welshing on debts - etc. you've offered?
It's you who are the cultist, Brett. Go back and review the facts of the Mar-a-Lago business - the actual facts, not some alternative version - and read what you wrote, and how many times you were refuted, both on facts and law.
Just a simple example of how deranged you people are: bankruptcy is not misconduct. It's a failure, for sure. Many presidents have had business failures before coming to the White House.
I agree that means he's not a good businessman. Or rather, you'd have to be an idiot to go into business with him. Because he may actually be the best businessman ever: his ventures going bankrupt with other people's money, while he comes out unscathed.
All these are reasons why I think he's unfit for office. But not proof of "misconduct", as you would like it to be. The guy plays to win, no different than many other powerful people like him. Stuff that's only particularly disqualifying when the other guy does it.
Yes, I'm aware. bankruptcy is not "misconduct," usually, though it can certainly be caused by misconduct. Loose phraseology does not make me deranged. For example, "his ventures going bankrupt with other people's money, while he comes out unscathed." I'm not sure I believe that story, at least without seeing the books. But suppose it's true. Do you think his investors knew they would be holding the bag?
Hint: He is not the best businessman ever, he's not even mediocre.
The casinos went bankrupt because the three people who knew what they were doing DIED when a helo crashed.
Brett: Trump must be presumed innocent even after conviction by a jury of his peers. It's in the Constitution!
Also Brett: The BIDEN CRIME FAMILY is coming crimes all the crime!
Also Brett: No, YOU'RE a cultist!
And what other former President has had his security clearances revoked by a successor, and then had that successor’s DOJ and FBI raid his house to find documents marked as classified that he supposedly should not have had because of those revoked security clearances?
[Sith Lord voice] Ahhhh, Apprentice, you've memorized the sacred writings well...
Ok. Let’s try this.
1. Were Trump’s security clearances ordered revoked by the Biden Administration (and, in particular, the Biden White House)?
2. Were any of the charges against Trump in the FL documents case based on him having possession of documents that he was not (any longer) cleared to see? (I.e. the Espionage Act claims).
1. No. Sitting Presidents don't have security clearances, but have access anyway as long as they are President. Trump's access-as-President was revoked by the voters failing to re-elect him.
2. No. 32 counts of the superseding indictment charged that Trump without authorization willfully retained documents relating to the national defense and failed to deliver them to the officer of the United States entitled to receive them, in violation of 18 U.S.C. §793(e). The clearance process is not involved, and the offense is not simple possession.
Facts! It's like brandishing a crucifix at Dracula.
Except, of course, he ignored critical facts, including a sitting President’s plenary powers of declassification and selection of what he determines to be personal papers, and not Presidential Records. But then, so did Jack Smith and Jay Bratt in their original and superseding indictments.
"President’s plenary powers of declassification and selection of what he determines to be personal papers, and not Presidential Records."
1) Because declassification does not matter with regards to the crimes he committed.
2) The law specifies what are personal and what are Presidential records.
You are a lying sack of shit.
Yes, Trump was charged with willfully retaining documents marked as classified without authorization. Except that he effectively authorized his retention of those documents by his actions of ordering them shipped to MAL while still the sitting President. And, no, the US was not entitled to the return of those documents, once Trump had determined that they were his personal papers.
What they do have is the curtesy of security briefings, which imply a wide Need to Know, which was revoked by Biden at the behest of the infamous Adam Schiff. Just waiting for Schiff to try to get on the Senate Intelligence Committee, under President Trump. Yes, his blatant and frequent mishandling of classified information should be waived through under that EO. Except that EOs don’t bind sitting Presidents - they make them. Just waiting until Trump revokes that curtesy from Clinton, Obama, and the hapless Biden.
Luckily Jack Smith’s vanity got the best of him, and he signed that superseding indictment under his own name, and not that of a Senate confirmed Officer, thus necessitating the dismissal of the case. He would have done better to have had his deputy, Jay Bratt, sign under the name of the AAG for National Security, to whom Bratt otherwise reports.
In any case, Smith and Bratt, pointedly ignored in their indictments Trump’s claims that the documents were no longer the property of the United States, and instead were his property as personal papers, and were effectively declassified, through his plenary declassification authority, at the time that he made the selection of them as such, that NARA had no power to order their return, or even to file a criminal referral with the DOJ (Jay Bratt, again). They just assumed, in those (original and superseding) indictments, that he was bound by the same rules and EOs, etc as everyone else is.
You really think the president can just take anything he wants when he leaves office?
This is the real TDS: Trump cultists making themselves intentionally retarded in order to rationalize and justify his crimes.
Remember JFK and the pictures of the Cuban missiles?
Those had been classified....
The president can declassify things. But he has to at least tell someone. Kind of like pardons. Here let's try this:
In 2026, the Trump DOJ files charges against Pelosi. But wait! Biden shows up and declares that he actually mentally pardoned Pelosi while he was President. Yay!
That's how stupid you are, and you don't even see it.
The even funnier part is, it doesn't even matter! Even if he had declassified them, that doesn't make them his property... and no, Bruce, he can't just "determine" that they're his.
Bruce was born that way. He has not done anything to 'make himself' intentionally retarded.
Yes. Effectively they can. That's the power of the president. When the president says it's unclassified, it's not classified. And they don't need to say it or tell anyone.
To compare, Truman flat-out told Stalin about the Hydrogen bomb, something top secret at the time. It would have been treason for anyone else to do so, but without any paperwork, notification, or anything else, he gave this top secret information to our greatest enemy, making it public knowledge.
Similarly, Clinton hid audiotapes in a sock drawer, and in 2012, the courts supported that he could keep these, similarly without any notice, publication, or records.
The checks on the president's declassification power are mere courtesy.
1. Even under the most aggressive possible interpretation of the president’s declassification authority, the president does still have to actually do it, a claim Trump has conspicuously failed to make.
2. Although it certainly appears that some of the material Trump retained was indeed classified, the charges against him do not depend on that.
Non-sequitur much, Ben? Bruce and I were talking about property rights, not classification.
Maybe you think only the vice president can do that?
Prosecutors approached the cases a bit differently. A Biden prosecution was not pursued because the special counsel deemed him not fit enough to be charged. I recall a real kerfuffle about that at the time, with the DOJ resisting releasing interview recordings with Biden that might be used unfairly for partisan political reasons.
I am amazed that you don't get exhausted carrying all this partisan water, running defense for the indefensible.
NB again: I've never voted for Trump, and have thought him unfit for office since 2016.
No, Bruce. I wrote "relating to the national defense", not "marked as classified". Whether or not a President can declassify documents by thought alone, he certainly has no such power to magically make them not defense related. To his lawyers' credit Trump didn't raise this argument in any of his motions to dismiss.
He did raise the Presidential Records Act in a motion to dismiss. It's true Smith didn't address this argument in the indictment, since it hadn't been made yet, but once it had been made he responded here. Aileen Cannon denied the motion saying
Every word of that is a lie; I'd say "stick to patent law," but I don't think you're allowed to lie in that field, either.
So, you're an acolyte of the prophet, Gary Abernathy (for years, WaPo's main MAGA Whisperer), in which he renounced the rule of law in favor of Strong-Man Caudillo authoritarianism:
Like you, rarely straying from MAGA-populist gospel, Abernathy's repeated Trump Apologia was the equivalent of a Christian religious apologist announcing powerful church authorities will be treated with fear & favor, and thus permitted to ignore the Ten Commandants.
So, as a hypothetical, I'll pretend you asked your questions in good faith and are interested in the answers. But I'm familiar with your go-to Gish Gallop) no matter the issue (Covid, 2020 Big Lie, Jan 6, climate change, etc.) and understand that includes your never accepting any answer. It seems unlikely that you’ll come back with anything of interest so, if you wanna gallop on, you'll have to find a different riding partner.
With that understanding, OK, less for you than for others, your questions.
1. Were Trump’s security clearances ordered revoked by the Biden Administration (and, in particular, the Biden White House)?
Ordinarily, before granting lawful access to classified information, two conditions must met:
a) A formal security clearance granted after an investigation appropriate to the sensitivity level of the information to be accessed, and
b) Need to know, acknowledged by the original classification authority (OCA) of the information to be accessed (documented but normally automatic based on serving in position requiring access).
But guess what? Neither applies to a president. Presidents and their VPs are neither subject to investigation for, nor granted, a formal security clearance—their authority and need-to-know stem entirely from serving as president.
And another guess what? Such access/need-to-know authority applies to presidents only while serving in office. It does not apply to presidents-elect or former presidents. Executive Order 13526 provides the option for former presidents as private citizens to request, and current presidents to grant, classified access. Trump never asked for and the Biden administration never granted private citizen Trump a clearance, need-to-know, or access.
Bottom line: As a private citizen, Trump never had authorized access. As president, Trump neither had nor needed a clearance. There's no clearance the for the next president to revoke.
Clear?
2. Were any of the charges against Trump in the FL documents case based on him having possession of documents that he was not (any longer) cleared to see? (I.e. the Espionage Act claims)
That seems to acknowledge Trump's possession outside of his term of office, of information classified under Executive Order 13526, other National Defense Information even if unclassified, and other information considered presidential records under the Presidential Records Act, was unlawful, which makes that question moot. I'm just glad you’re not stretching for the I Kreskin-declassified everything, even Trump and Patel finally abandoned.
So, not sure why you asked. But per the original June 2023 indictment, the answer is Yes, starting with Counts 1-31 naming specific unlawfully-retained documents.
But stronger and less complex (so simpler to prove) were:
COUNT 32. Conspiracy to Obstruct Justice
COUNT 33. Withholding a Document or Record
COUNT 34. Corruptly Concealing a Document or Record
COUNT 35. Concealing a Document in a Federal Investigation
COUNT 36. Scheme to Conceal
COUNT 37. False Statements and Representations (Donald Trump)
COUNT 38. False Statements and Representations (Waltine Nauta)
SCOTUS-granted presidential immunity provides non-frivolous legal defenses to 1-31. But unlawful acts of 31-38 all first occurred after Trump, like a lot of 70-year-old ex-NY real estate investors, had retired to Florida. He was again a private citizen with no presidential immunity against prosecution for retaining government documents after, over a period of two years, specific notification, request, and finally subpoena for their return.
If the US DoJ case is really so strong, why didn't Biden use a lawfully confirmed prosecutor with a legitimate budget?
In your favor: one young, new, inexperienced, FedSoc-chosen, Trump-appointed-sycophant (that last as confirmed by the 3-0 bench-slap an 11th Circuit panel w/two Trump appointees with exactly her FedSoc background, gave her unbound-by-reality opinions and orders in her earlier Trump case), and a line from one Clarence Thomas solo dissent.
Against: multiple SCOTUS precedents and decades of precedent from multiple Circuit Courts supporting that it was lawfully confirmed prosecutor with a legitimate budget.
DoJ appealed the ruling to the same 11th Circuit panel that issued the Cannon bench-slap (dropping Trump but keeping Waltine Nauta). Several briefs went back and forth from Aug-Oct with the next due Nov 15, but after the election, both parties agree on a request the court to defer further motion actions until 2025.
The court agreed and has not yet set a resumption date, which makes sense because future actions really do depend on whether a Trump DoJ might want to keep the opportunity to appoint their own Special counsels. The Judge will, of course, decide in favor of whatever Trump desires, which may well be to pardon Nauta but keep the Special Counsel statute.
You really do need to follow some news sites that don't limit themselves to MAGA talking points. I recommend Just Security's coverage of this case.
Hilarious. As if you'd have been more pleased with a career DoJ prosecutor, working directly for Garland, who works directly for Biden, rather than an ostensibly "independent" prosecutor presumably much less beholden to either.
He did.
You put a lot of work into a factual post that is never going to convince Bruce or any of the other idiot Trumpers around here.
Thanks. Not that much work but as I said, I decided to pretend Bruce asked his questions in good faith and was interested in the answers, while noting my familiarity his go-to Gish Gallop practices, so the odds of his coming back with anything of interest were negligible. Thus, "...OK, less for you than for others, your questions." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Bollocks. I don't believe that Trump should be above the law. I do, however, believe that POTUS is the beneficiary of latitude for actions he performs as POTUS. THE SC seems to agree with me, so looks as if I'm in good company.
This kind of thinking, paired with advocacy for a legal double standard is precisely what lost the election for Kamala.
Kamala lost due to a long list of self-inflicted wounds, but this wasn't one of them.
Kamala's self-inflicted wounds were merely icing on the cake.
No, Trump won because, America, as much as I hate to admit it, This. Is. Who. We. Are.
Trump won because the motivated reasoning of a plurality of American voters led them—in times of difficulties less real than imagined—to default to the white male former President most lacking in temperament, knowledge, judgement, and integrity any of us have ever known.
Trump won because motivated reasoning, confirmation bias, and inherent gut-level prejudices led a narrow electoral plurality (not majority) to reject a Black, Indian woman with the profile of a normal major-party presidential candidate—not exceptional but experienced, knowledgeable, of ordinary even temperament, good judgement, and integrity—who was vice-president to a man history may judge, based on his administration’s record, as the most consequential one-term president in history ("may"…say what you might of James K. Polk’s pragmatic morality, he too has a record of consequence).
I say this as someone who didn't have Biden on my qualified nominee list in either 2020 or 2024—because one checklist item for my under-consideration list is a high actuarial likelihood of an ability to serve an effective two-term presidency. Neither Joe Biden nor Bernie Sanders, nor Donald Trump qualified (of course, I voted for Joe over Trump both times).
If Democrats were dumb, it was in 2020, when they firmly set their 2024 path by nominating a man who would likely turn 86 in office.
Trump won because, as awful as he objectively is, you nominated somebody the public thought was WORSE. Twice!
I'm not sure the great man theory of elections is the right analysis here.
How is suggesting Trump won because the other gal was awful claiming any great man status? It's the opposite of that.
Not thrice?
Given that this year was the first time that more people voted for Trump than the candidate running against him, I’m not sure that’s a totally accurate characterization.
You don't think a majority could come to that conclusion? Of course they could.
To the extent that an election actually says what you think it says, the public thought Hillary was better than Trump, which is why significantly more people voted for Hillary than Trump.
Nothing new here. We've heard it all before.
Yes. Your line is not novel. Same old, same old.
Trump supporters regularly like the fact Trump is not "regular" but get annoyed when people cite it to argue that therefore a presumption of regularity doesn't make sense. Then, we are supposed to just assume that Trump is regular.
Others try to gaslight us into believing Trump is regular. They are as unbelievable. There is a reason why this sort of thing was not regularly argued to be applied to Bush, McCain/Romney (if necessary), and so on.
Yup.
Nothing new here. We've heard it all before. There's nothing here to say. Yet here you are, still...
The only regularity he needs to exercise the full powers of the office is the fact that he got elected. That's the beginning AND the end of the analysis.
There is no such thing as "regular". I could make the argument he won a majority this time because was not regular.
"Regular" is a Resistance™ narcissistic delusion, with them thinking their worldview is normative. That's the gaslighting!
I've never voted for Trump because he believes in big government and deficit spending, just like Democrats, yet being a political talent has embraced the paradox of his base of supporters who claim they don't like government, but their political expectations say otherwise.
If we politically crucify one Federal judge, the rest will get the message.
Sure, why wouldn't you want to politicise the US (federal) judiciary even more than it already has been? How could that possibly lead to bad outcomes?
Who politicized it originally?
Hmmm, let me see...Robert Bork, Miguel Estrada. Filibustering appeals court nominees, then abolishing the judicial filibuster.
Of course all that is after the activist Warren/Burger Court decisions were usurping democracy. (No, not every SCOTUS decision of that era was wrong.) But the left didn't care because they were going their way.
The filibuster is an internal Senate rule; they can change it anytime they want.
Which means that because it's such a great rule, we can be sure that the Republican Senate will re-institute it!
Why would anyone do that? It's like you don't understand the importance of norms in a system of governance. The filibuster evolved into a voluntary constraint on majority rule. Because until very recently every senator in the majority recognized that one day he might not be.
One of Mitch McConnell's finest moments in the Senate was his speech begging Harry Reid not to abolish the filibuster, because Democrats would one day regret what they had done.
Needy lil’ nutter today.
More and more anodyne with each comment.
Okay; let's start with Aileen Cannon.
How about we just treat Trump the same as everyone else, and start from the assumption that he's telling the truth when he says that he wants to prosecute people for political reasons? (And don't even get me started about Kash Patel.)
Yes. That's the point Blackman doesn't discuss. We're talking about specific statements by Trump and his henchmen about prosecuting political opponents, or even those who just criticize Der Fuhrer
Does evidence of intent even matter to the cultists?
Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule), short for Godwin's law of Nazi analogies,[1] is an Internet adage asserting: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.
The corollary to Godwin's law is that those who so invoke it are idiots.
That was clearly a joke.
Also:
In 2023, Godwin published an opinion on The Washington Post stating "Yes, it's okay to compare Trump to Hitler. Don't let me stop you." In the article, Godwin says "But when people draw parallels between Donald Trump’s 2024 candidacy and Hitler’s progression from fringe figure to Great Dictator, we aren’t joking. Those of us who hope to preserve our democratic institutions need to underscore the resemblance before we enter the twilight of American democracy."
"the twilight of American democracy."
Bitter, bitter, bitter. What a sore loser you are.
Yes, people really have Trump Derangement Syndrome. Godwin gave a good example of his law, and TDS.
Mike always was a bit of a leftist. JD from UT will do that to you. Never enough though to be obnoxious about it. Like knowing that someone is Roman Catholic, and you are Protestant, but so what? The Immaculate Conception or Papal Infallibility never come up, so we never have anything to argue about on the religious front.
Used to run into Godwin at Mark Lemley’s yearly CyberLaw CLE conferences in Austin, when Mark was still teaching at UT. That’s where I also first physically met EV. We all knew each other a bit from the Cyberia-L llstserve group in the very early 1990s. After that I would sometimes help Mike with patent and maybe copyright issues, and he would throw me patent clients. And I think he may have gotten me involved with some disabled BBSers who had had their site or domain name stolen. It’s been over 30 years now, so the details have faded a bit. Always fun to talk to Mike - but we stayed away from politics.
As has been noted, even Hitler wasn't always Hitler. The 1932 Hitler was not the crazed genocidal dictatorial Hitler he became.
One reason the Nazis did so well in that election is because they had decided to tone down their rhetoric.
People being more afraid of the Communists didn't have anything to do with it?
No. Hitler and Goebbels planned to appear more moderate and their plan succeeded.
Well, sure, but it only succeeded because the alternative looked like the Communists, and they were genuinely, apocalyptically awful, and everybody knew it. You might consider that aspect of the situation if you're comparing Trump to Hitler: If people didn't think the Democrats were horrific, Trump wouldn't have had a chance, and people don't think that of Democrats for no reason.
I've said myself that Trump only won in 2016 because the Democrats picked somebody as horrible as Clinton to be their standard bearer. The same in 2024.
You might think about why the Democratic party has been puking up candidates so horrifying that even Trump could beat them.
German politics in the early 1930s was not Nazis vs. Communists.
And comparing Dems to Communists so you can parallels Trump with...Nazis? Maybe not your best choice of argument.
"German politics in the early 1930s was not Nazis vs. Communists."
I mean, that's not wrong - there were a lot of factions. But Brett isn't all wrong either. Sometimes the Nazis and KPD (communists) worked together to destabilize democracy, both thinking they would win from the resulting chaos. Germany would have been better off with neither of them, to be sure.
It's just not something you can summarize in a paragraph. A couple of links:
How Communists in Germany Allied with Nazis to Destroy Democracy
1930 German federal election
Pretty complex mess. But I think it's fair to say that the moderates did fear communism, and that helped drive them to the right, especially after the Nazis toned their messaging down as Dan Schiavetta notes. And Hitler met privately with a lot of the conservativeish powers-that-be to paint himself as much more moderate than he was.
You could say the same thing about the German liberal democrats.
Hitler was elected for lots of reasons, but anti communism is a tricky case to make due to its vaguely. Nazis liked trade unions. And Strausserism. And were more anti Bolshevik than anti Communist.
I just last week listened to a podcast specifically about Hitler appeal to the average German
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/hitler-with-ian-kershaw-part-1/id1537788786?i=1000525377150
Godwin is capable of transgressing his own law, as he demonstrated. It was actually inevitable. THIS Republican president is finally, actually Hitler!
He will never "be Hitler" if you define that as simply persecuting Jews...
Since plenty of people accuse Republicans of being Nazis who are not Jew haters, the operative definition of being Hitler has little to do with persecuting Jews. (Often, qualifying as a Nazi is as simple as favoring law and order and upset about BLM rioting.)
People actually persecuting Jews presently, on US college campuses, are definitely not being compared to Hitler by someof the usual suspects who like to call Republicans Nazis.
Godwin's law is an observation, and thus not something that anyone is capable of transgressing.
Bernard,
"Der Fuhrer" is a pretty cheap shot. Save it for the leaders of Iran and the Houthis
Yes. ...even those who just criticize El Caudillo is probably more on point.
...so far.
Don,
Maybe. He's produced no concentration camps, yet, started no wars of territorial conquest. But he plainly, IMO, is a fan of the Fuhrerprinzip.
My point is that I perceive a sense among Trumpists that he can do no wrong, that all accusations are bogus, and any law he may have violated has been violated hundreds of times by his opponents, and his violation was trivial in any case. Further, he talks and acts as if he is not bound by law at all, or by truth. Revoke birthright citizenship? Sure. Just show him where to sign. Prosecute those who criticize him? No problem.
Trump ran a campaign based on hatred - of transsexuals, of immigrants - he made no bones about it - and on insults, which his followers loved - and on his BS claim to have been cheated in 2020.
He promises to round up millions of people and put them in camps for deportation. This is an incredibly cruel, incredibly stupid, idea. But they cheer, and rationalize.
So no. He's not Hitler, but he is a dangerous authoritarian.
Trump can do plenty of things wrong, as most of his supporters will tell you. The bump stock ban, not firing a bunch of people when he first took office, failing to realize the GOP Congressional leadership were NOT his allies...
It's just that Democrats and NeverTrumper's always go overboard and accuse him of stupid stuff he didn't do, because the stuff he does do wrong isn't enough for them. The stuff he's actually guilty of is ordinary baseline wrong, and that's just not bad enough.
Like he calls the Georgia SoS, and asks for access to election records, you just have to claim he was really demanding that votes be manufactured for him.
It's projection. They know what they would do, and what they would want, if they were in Trump's positions -- so they assume he is trying to do those things.
"Like he calls the Georgia SoS, and asks for access to election records, you just have to claim he was really demanding that votes be manufactured for him."
Tick-tock, delusional dipshit.
Yeah, I realize you're one.
The things you define as "wrong" are policy decisions you disapprove of.
You won't admit he's done anything wrong in the sense of a criminal act, a civil violation, sexual harassment, outright stupidity and dishonesty, being a deadbeat, managing businesses into the ground, illegally taking money from his foundation, Trump University, trying to extort Zelensky, continuing to make false claims about 2020, letting J6 go for hours, etc.
You've got an excuse for every one of those.
I'm surprised you didn't also relieve Trump of the blame for the bump-stock ban--surely, that was only because he listened to the Deep Staters in his Administration?
I’m pretty sure he blames the deep staters in the NRA.
Actually, yeah, I do. Not "deep staters", as such, but we long had a problem with the NRA leadership being spineless compromisers who have to be dragged kicking and screaming into opposing gun laws.
For a large part of the 20th century, the NRA leadership were convinced that the gun control movement was going to win eventually, and were working to transition the NRA into being a sort of historical society. It took a membership revolt to change that. But even after they were forced to start fighting back, they were prone to compromises, like the ban on new machine gun registrations.
Trump actually got the NRA's opinion about the bumpstock ban, and they told him to go ahead.
I don't think Trump has much in the way of political principle on things like gun control, but he does take care not to deliberately piss off his own base. Without the NRA signing off on the ban, he wouldn't have done it.
LOL.
Setting aside the revisionist history here, the phrase "spineless compromisers" tells you all you need to know about Brett's worldview. He thinks that democracy is fundamentally illegitimate and that politics is about getting power and using it to shove one's preferences down everyone's throats. Only losers compromise. Winners just win.
How right you were...
Also apparently Bob Dole.
The luxury of being an extremist is your us vs them becomes super easy since them is everyone you decide not to give a pass.
Or the new terrorist leaders of Syria, soon to be showered with billions in US foreign aid.
I agree with that, Martin. Happy New Year.
Did Trump ever actually say that he wanted to prosecute people for political reasons? Or did he say that because he believed that so-and-so had committed a crime, so-and-so should be prosecuted?
You need to get one of the special MSM and Democrat Enigma machines to find out what Trump really said rather than the encoded version.
That depends on whether you subscribe to the “Trump is great because everything he says is bullshit theory of government”. If you’re, say, Josh Blackman or Mr. Bumble, nothing Trump says ever means what it plainly does mean.
I don’t think that Trump has said that he wants his political opponents to be prosecuted even though he know they’re innocent (although it wouldn’t exactly be the most shocking thing that has ever happened if I’m wrong about that). He certainly has said many times that a number of his political opponents should be in jail, without offering any suggestion of how anything they’ve done was criminal.
Sounds like behavior by Judge Johnson that is not "Good"
As usual, you switch the tune to play for a different audience, Josh.
One wonders what was so breathtakingly urgent about getting this weak take out there as to break your usual "no posting on Saturday" rule. I guess, like all your principles, that one's flexible.
Is being pro-Trump one of those agreed-upon exceptions to Sabbath rules?
Josh has explained that his rule, for Saturdays, is not about religious observance, but rather about an alignment with the cultural practice that he follows for personal reasons.
It is one of the cynical things he does that perfectly exemplifies his entire mindset and worldview. He intentionally adopts the trappings of religious Jewish practice, but he has always been clear that this observance is not religiously motivated. It is purely performative.
But yes, his willingness to drop the OP on a Saturday demonstrates that he wasn't content to let the news cycle get too stale before launching his shitpost into the mix. Given that it dropped precisely one hour after his "Today in SCOTUS history" post, I expect he drafted it yesterday and auto-timed its release for when it would gain some traction. (And so, for his own personal purposes, remaining in compliance with his self-imposed "no posting on Saturday" rule.)
Imagine if the feds pursued "social justice" protestors with the same energy as they did the J6 "election integrity" crowd. And if federal judges observed the same level of judicial deference as the gang from the District of the District of Columbia. We'd have to rent gulag space from the Russians!
Imagine if the defenders of the J6 rioters applied the same degree of acceptance and excuse-making to "social justice" protestors.
Imagine if the feds pursued "social justice" protestors with the same energy as they did the J6 "election integrity" crowd...
That would be odd since, to the extent "social justice" protestors commit crimes, they tend to be state crimes.
Something to think about when you're planning your riot in DC.
Like when they were firebombing the White House and had half of DC on fire?
https://x.com/SamanthaJoRoth/status/1267291110197657600
You think the Administration in office in June 2020 improperly, for political reasons, decided not to prosecute rioters who had "set half of DC on fire" and "firebombed the White House"?
Scandalous, indeed!
Obviously that's not what I think. From the context of the conversation, it's pretty obvious I was refuting his claim that the social "justice" protestors were committing state crimes.
The pictures reinforced my refutation.
Hope this helps!
I said "tend." A handful of counterexamples doesn't suffice to refute a trend.
J6 and BLM terrorist assault on DC are apples to apples.
Was the "DOJ energy" the same for both sets of events?
a) yes b) this was Obviously's point above and you blew him off... you seem confused
Thursday, September 24, 2020
The Department of Justice announced today that more than 300 individuals in 29 states and Washington, D.C., have been charged for crimes committed adjacent to or under the guise of peaceful demonstrations since the end of May.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/over-300-people-facing-federal-charges-crimes-committed-during-nationwide-demonstrations
You think that's the same energy as the "Shock and Awe" of J6?
Are you serious? That wasn't just DC BLM insurrection, that's nationwide during the whole Summer of Black Love. Did you even read your article?
Obviously, a bunch of disparate lefty rioters weren't remotely in the same class as a top-down, coordinated effort to throw the election from the lawful winner to the loser--no matter how many private properties they torched in the process.
As Randal has pointed out, despite this relative inconsequence, literally hundreds of federal prosecutions were mounted against said lefty rioters (a fact which is routinely denied entirely by most MAGA adherents).
That wasn't just DC BLM insurrection, that's nationwide during the whole Summer of Black Love.
Again, dear Ginger of the Short Attention Span, the vast majority of "nationwide" BLM protests were dealt with by the states, not the feds. And there were tons of state prosecutions.
As to the few BLM protests that violated federal law, yes, the feds, under Trump, were just as "high energy" in prosecuting them.
Red....I see you went with my reco. 🙂
What was his name previously? It's not on my mute list.
He's Jesus had blond hair guy.
The op-ed makes two specific suggestions, neither of which Prof. Blackman discusses, although they both strike me as noteworthy (in a bad way).
The first is that, in the context of wiretap applications, “ A judge could assume that the warrant has gone through layers of approval within the Justice Department, even reaching the assistant attorney general in charge of the criminal division, an extremely high ranking official in the department.” This is just kind of strange: the wiretap statute lists the DOJ officials who can authorize one (which are fairly senior, but extend below the level of assistant attorney general for the criminal division), and that official needs to be identified in the application. So I’m not sure what they’re suggesting the Trump DOJ will do (lie about whether someone has approved it?) or what judges should do in response (ask whether they really approved it?).
The second suggestion is that judges should analyze selective prosecution claims “differently than they have in the past.” I don’t see how a judge could accept that invitation without directly ignoring Supreme Court precedent on the appropriate test, which seems like a rather troubling road to be going down.
Fair enough, though we've seen so much doctrinal innovation happening at the district and appellate court level these days that I'm not sure we're not already pretty far down that "rather troubling road."
The Supreme Court has held that the statements of an executive as to the purpose of his action are dispositive evidence of intent (McCreary County v. ACLU, 2005) and that they are irrelevant (Trump v. Hawaii, 2018).
Trump v. Hawaii decided that liberal claims of "dog whistles" aren't dispositive evidence of intent. No matter how many fainting couches were pulled out or pearls were clutched.
Sorry Dan
Those weren't dog whistles, those were direct and proud pledges of religious discrimination. Trump outright said that his intent was a "Muslim ban". The Court quotes some of these statements at pp. 27 - 28. The Court admits that these statements "cast serious doubt on the official objective" of the restrictions on immigration from Muslim countries. It then held that the statements were irrelevant, and focused simply on the text of the order.
in 2015, he said temporarily ban Muslim immigration while they figured things out.
in 2017, he banned all immigration from 7 countries, which Obama had also done which wasn't all Muslims nor targeting Muslims specifically.
There's clearly a temporality & contextual mismatch as well as lots of inferences and dog whistling.
Read the decision. You’ll see what I mean. The Court’s own recitation of the facts.
So religious discrimination in such an order is legal.
>“ A judge could assume that the warrant has gone through layers of approval within the Justice Department, even reaching the assistant attorney general in charge of the criminal division, an extremely high ranking official in the department.”
Just like the secret FISA warrants!
There are lots of issues with unfair charging, prosecution and sentencing practices and with practices of those bringing charges before the FISA Court. It's a worthy goal to try to change those unfair practices, wherever and whenever used.
Please remember the efforts to change that situation have, in the past, been pursued by those on the left, not on the right (primarily, not entirely—while the Authoritarian wing of conservatism Bob Barr demonstrated for decades desires no-questions-asked prosecutorial and police power, Libertarians work against that).
A good thing to come out of the FBI Inspector General's review of the Carter Page FISA warrant was that the unsurprising finding of the FBI's routine, widespread, overaggressive practices when developing and presenting warrants to the FISA Court, caught the eye of the right and motivated some of them to join with the left who have long challenged those practices.
So, perhaps instead of just complaining, you’ll decide to join those concerned with such social justice issues, to prevent that from happening to anyone…not just when it affects your side.
Now, when judges are asked to review warrant applications, or any other ex parte submissions from the government, they should do so through a different lens, much more scrupulously than ever before.
So judges ought to do their jobs, and not just rubber stamp what the Government does? That would be a welcome change. So long as it's done for administrations of both parties. Fat chance.
But you agree it should be? Or no?
It should be, but only if it's a consistent standard.
Judges should be consistent and not whimsical based upon political preferences.
You agree with that right? There should be one standard for judicial conduct?
Whatever gave you that idea? My repeatedly written words?
I made my position plain -- anything submitted to a court ex parte requires serious scrutiny, regardless of politics or which administration is in office.
The standards should not be different "because Trump". On the other hand, the blind deferrence granted to prior administrations was the actual error. Judges should be more sceptical - of all administrations.
That's what I said. But you said it better.
Yes.
In previous administrations, federal trial judges have had generally well-founded confidence that the Justice Department and the post-Hoover F.B.I., under presidents from either party, have not been employed to attack political enemies.
We have seen them employed to attack political friends for four years.
Right. That's just a delusional, nonsense claim. The DOJ has been meddling in our elections since Ted Stevens... at least.
Not to mention their lawyer actually forging evidence in a FISa warrant application.
Let’s cut the bullshit, Mr. Blackman. Mr. Trump has repeatedly stated his Justice department will go after his political opponents, and he’s been looking for people to staff it willing to go along.
What are trying to tell us here? You’re saying Mr. Trump is such a liar nobody has any business taking what he says he’s going to do seriously? You’re saying Mr. Trump has so little credibility, he’s such a total bullshitter that when he makes very serious-sounding threats, everybody should just laugh at his ass and carry on as if nothing had happened?
You’re saying you think that little of Mr. Trump? A man not to be taken seriously at all?
You’re saying Mr. Trump is a total fuckoff? You’re telling us you think he’s such a complete piece of shit, when he talks nobody should even notice?
And Biden went after his political enemies. Why treat Trump any differently?
Only in your imagination.
Kevin Clinesmith
Clinesmith worked for Trump's FBI at the time, in 2017. What are you even talking about? You guys are so dense and confused.
They think what they're told to think. They seem to prefer it that way.
FBI director Gray was appointed by Trump, but then turned against him.
Non-sequiturs won't save you, Roger.
In fact, so many of Trump's appointees and hires have turned against him, it's almost like he really can't pick a team.
Surely, this time will be different!
FBI director Gray was nominated by Richard Nixon, but was not confirmed because of his corrupt actions as part of the Watergate coverup.
Should people be immune from DOJ investigations if they are political opponents of the President?
Of course not.
If people did crimes they should be prosecuted. Many people believe some of Trump's political opponents committed crimes and they have reasonable justification.
That remains to be seen.
What we have already seen is cornucopious evidence that Trump has committed numerous state and federal crimes--which the MAGAworld simply dismisses out of hand as "lawfare".
Crimes so numerous, at the federal level anyway, that people can't describe them in an elevator pitch. Conspiracy to defraud the United States LOL.
The difference between Trump and the outgoing administration is that Trump has said the quiet part out loud.
Although I believe there has been minimal reporting that Biden did prod Garland to pursue a criminal investigation against Trump.
Whether Trump is a piece of shit or not is irrelevant. It's an opinion, not legally disqualifying. If the rule of law means anything, it means accepting a piece of shit has been elected to office. Something The Resistance™ has been unable to come to grips with, but I have accepted since 2016.
This time around, an outright majority of voters disagreed with my belief that Trump is unfit for office.
The reporting was that Biden privately expressed disappointment — not to Garland — about how slowly Garland was moving.
"Most district judges — especially those who have served as federal prosecutors, as most have — believe that the prosecutors appearing before them act with integrity"
Of course ex-prosecutors are going to show professional courtesy to current prosecutors. They're all in the same racket.
A silver lining about the appointment of Justice Jackson is that even if she's unclear on the concept of what a woman is, her experience as a defense attorney will help her tell the difference between chicken shit and chicken salad when it comes to the assertions of prosecutors.
And if it takes TDS to persuade other judges, the ones who used to be prosecutors, to start being skeptical of prosecutorial integrity, so much the better, provided that once their rose-colored glasses have come off, they don't put them back on again after Trump leaves.
The best case scenario is that anti-Trump judges will start telling grand jurors more about their constitutional role as checks on prosecutorial zealotry. Once it becomes customary to tell grand jurors this, maybe the grand jurors' newfound independence won't get turned off even after the judges once again get prosecutors they're willing to suck up to.
"When I told you to review carefully the assertions of prosecutors, I meant *Trump* prosecutors."
"OK, Your Honor, whatever, we're going to start being skeptical of *all* prosecutors."