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Much of Government Response to Parent's Criticism of School Board "Was Beyond the Pale," but Can't Justify an Injunction …
because there's not enough evidence that the response would recur (which is what is required for an injunction, which is a forward-looking remedy).
From yesterday's Third Circuit decision in Reading v. North Hanover Township, written by Judge Thomas Hardiman and joined by Judges Kent Jordan and David Porter:
Angela Reading, a mother and former school board member, alleged that federal and local government officials violated her right to free speech by engaging in a campaign of censorship and retaliation after she posted comments on Facebook. She requested a preliminary injunction to prohibit those officials from further interfering with her First Amendment rights. After the District Court denied her motion, Reading appealed.
{Reading's allegations are serious and raise important questions under the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment. Reading expressed concern about whether her seven-year-old daughter was being exposed to sexual topics that have no place in an elementary school. Regardless of whether one agrees with Reading's concern, the record suggests that Defendants' response to her blog post was, to put it mildly, disproportionate.}
Although much of the government actors' behavior was beyond the pale, the record does not show a substantial risk that their acts of censorship and retaliation will recur. So Reading lacks standing to seek a preliminary injunction….
More on the factual claims:
The controversy that gave rise to this case unfolded at the Upper Elementary School (UES or School) in the North Hanover Township School District. As part of its 2022 "Week of Respect," the School invited students to design posters "demonstrat[ing] that UES [is] a safe place where everyone [is] accepted." Some students offered "messages of general acceptance," while others supported more specific causes.
One such poster, anchored in the center by the acronyms "LGBTQ" and "UES," featured descriptions of various sexual identities and their corresponding flags. The poster included a "bi" flag, a "genderfluid" flag, and a "polysexual" flag, among others. It announced that "different is cool" and instructed students that "you are who you are."
Angela Reading first saw the poster when she attended the School's "Math Night." After her seven-year-old daughter asked what the word "polysexual" meant, she was "livid." She took her concerns to social media. In a lengthy post to the "NJ Fresh Faced Schools" Facebook page, Reading wondered why an elementary school would permit its students to "research topics of sexuality," and worried that adults were "talking about their sexual life" with her children. She called the poster "perverse" and argued that it "should be illegal to expose my kids to sexual content." Although "[k]ids should respect differences," Reading explained, they "should not be forced to learn about and accept concepts of sexuality in elementary school." Reading concluded the post by noting that her comments were "made in [her] capacity as a private citizen and not in [her] capacity as a [school] board member."
Reading's post quickly drew the ire of military personnel at nearby Joint Base McGuire-Dix Lakehurst, some of whom had children at the School. Major Chris Schilling was especially fixated on the post. In an email to local parents, Schilling complained that Reading's post was "filled with too many logical fallacies to list." He accused her of "try[ing] to over sexualize things" to "give her arguments more power," insisting that she did "not hav[e] the proper resources and/or education on the matter." Schilling was "very concern[ed]" that Reading served as a local school board member.
Writing from his personal email account, Schilling also worried that Reading would "stir[ ] up right wing extremists." He raised this alarm in another email to parents, warning that Reading's post "could needlessly injure the school and others in the community." He encouraged parents to speak out against Reading and to "keep the pressure on until her disruptive and dangerous actions cease."
The controversy grew when Schilling elevated his concerns to the leadership at Joint Base McGuire-Dix Lakehurst. Now writing from his military email account, Schilling cautioned Major Nathaniel Lesher that Reading's post could "give[ ] a road map to anyone looking to make a statement, political, ideological, or even violent." In response, Major Lesher promised to forward the issue to Robert Duff, the Chief of Police for Hanover Township. After Reading's post gained modest traction online, Schilling once again contacted Lesher, who vowed to "push this again" to Duff..
Instead of de-escalating the matter to the Hanover Township Police, the situation intensified when more military personnel got involved. Air Force Antiterrorism Program Manager Joseph Vazquez wrote that Reading's post "really gets under my skin for sure." He assured Major Schilling that he was "sending this to our partners with NJ Office of Homeland Security and Preparedness as well as the NJ State Police Regional Operations Intelligence Center," which "keep an eye on far right/hate groups." And Lieutenant Colonel Megan Hall advised two local school superintendents, including Defendant Helen Payne, that Reading's posts "have created a concern for the safety of our military children and families." She worried that they "could become targets from extremist personnel/groups."
Major Schilling reported his colleagues' involvement to parents in the community. In an email sent from his personal account, Schilling explained that he had been "actively working with the base leadership over the past few days" and that "they are working to support us in our efforts."
Schilling's efforts bore fruit. On November 30, Chief Duff successfully convinced Nicole Stouffer, the administrator of "NJ Fresh Faced Schools," to remove Reading's post from the page. As Stouffer described the episode,
While professing that he was not actually ordering me to take the post down, Duff intimidated me into doing so by telling me that the post, and Mrs. Reading, were under investigation by Homeland Security because of the supposed potential for the post to cause a school shooting like the one that had occurred at Uvalde Texas, or a mass shooting like the one that had occurred at a gay nightclub in Colorado. Duff told me that the "threat" posed by this innocuous post was such he had had to provide extra security for the North Hanover schools because of the threat of violence. He was clearly and unequivocally pressuring me to censor the post while trying to pretend that he was not doing so.
After briefing military personnel on this development, Chief Duff promised to "continue to see if I can get additional posts removed from other social media posts."
The controversy didn't end there. One comment on Reading's post revealed the "location" of upcoming school board meetings, which were held at "times … publicly listed on the school website." So even though Reading's post had been taken down, Major Schilling feared that outsiders might still endanger the community. Worried for the "military parents [who] attend these meetings," Schilling sought even more support from base leadership. So Antiterrorism Program Manager Vazquez forwarded Schilling's concerns to the New Jersey Office of Homeland Security and Preparedness, who in turn notified the Burlington County Prosecutors Office Counter-Terrorism Coordinator. Meanwhile, Chief Duff offered to "continue to monitor social media and take appropriate action if needed."
Many of these developments were shared with the public. In a "Community Update" email, Superintendent Payne stated that recent events had "caused safety and security concerns for many families" and offered the following assurance:
[t]he safety and security of our students and staff is always of primary importance, and ensuring that has been my first priority, even as we responded to this situation over the past couple of days. I assure you that I have been in continuous close contact with the North Hanover Police and they have been very supportive and present for us. They are taking any risks very seriously, are aware of our concerns and have been working on their end to provide any support we need.
On top of these public-facing comments, Superintendent Payne and Chief Duff privately lambasted Reading in a string of text messages to each other. Duff called Reading "sick in the head," to which Payne responded, "[o]ld news." Duff asserted that Reading "should know better and keep her mouth shut," to which Payne responded, "She can't. She is not capable."
Major Schilling gave an update of his own. In a post to the Northern Burlington Parents Facebook page, he acknowledged that "[t]he current situation involving Mrs[.] Reading's actions has caused safety concerns for many families." But "[t]he Joint Base leadership takes this situation very seriously," and "Security Forces [are] working with multiple state and local law enforcement agencies to monitor the situation to ensure the continued safety of the entire community."
These efforts led to what Reading calls "an over-the-top show of force" at the next Board of Education meeting on December 13. She claims that Chief Duff arranged for "a multi-jurisdictional battalion of armed police officers, install[ed] a metal detector, and requir[ed] bag searches." Reading alleged that "panic-stricken attendees assailed" her at the meeting, "falsely accusing her of jeopardizing school safety when no 'threat' had ever materialized."
Reading defended herself in the media. She emailed government officials, appeared on national television, and was interviewed on local radio. She also published articles on a blog, which covered topics ranging from government censorship to developments in education policy.
After these events, Reading maintains that her "life and career were radically altered for the worse." Since the controversy began, Reading lost a job offer, resigned from her position on the Northern Burlington County Regional School Board, and withdrew her children from public schools. She blames Defendants, whose conduct "rendered [her] a pariah in her community."
All of this—emails, phone calls, text messages, community letters, heightened security, and referrals to counter-terrorism authorities—because of a single Facebook post.
The court nonetheless concluded that Reading wasn't entitled to a preliminary injunction:
Where, as here, the plaintiff seeks prospective relief to address future harm, she must show that "the threatened injury is certainly impending, or there is a substantial risk that the harm will occur." Evidence of "past exposure to illegal conduct" does not automatically justify an injunction against future violations, but it is relevant as "a launching pad for a showing of imminent future injury." …
Reading's primary evidence of future harm is the predictive value of Defendants' past conduct. Her emphasis is understandable, for "[i]f a plaintiff demonstrates that a particular Government defendant was behind her past social-media restriction, it will be easier for her to prove that she faces a continued risk of future restriction that is likely to be traceable to that same defendant." But "easier" does not mean automatic. For example, in Murthy v. Missouri, the Supreme Court considered a request for a preliminary injunction barring a host of government defendants from coercing the removal of plaintiffs' social media posts. Plaintiffs argued that because the Government defendants had coerced the removal of their social media posts in the past, there was a substantial risk they would do so again. The Supreme Court disagreed. And it did so because the Government's alleged suppression campaign "had considerably subsided" by the time plaintiffs sued, so even the strongest evidence of past censorship could not show "a likelihood of future injury traceable to" the Government defendants.
Murthy dictates the outcome in Reading's case. The bulk of Defendants' allegedly unlawful conduct took place during a three-week period, and almost all of it ended by mid-December 2022. Superintendent Payne sent her "Community Update" on December 1; Chief Duff's heightened security ended upon the conclusion of a school board meeting on December 13; and the Federal Defendants' spate of communications slowed significantly by December 5. Indeed, during oral argument, Reading's counsel could not identify any unlawful acts by Defendants since the initial events nearly two years ago. Even if Defendants engaged in a conspiracy to deprive Reading of her First Amendment right to speak freely during the final weeks of 2022, any threat "had considerably subsided" by the time she sued in March 2023.
Reading's counterarguments are unpersuasive. She first quotes the Supreme Court's statement in Susan B. Anthony List v. Driehaus that Defendants' "refusal to 'disavow' past enforcement … indicate[s] a credible threat of recurrence." Her reliance on Driehaus is misplaced. That case involved a preenforcement challenge to an Ohio law that "prohibit[ed] certain 'false statements' during the course of a political campaign." In finding a "substantial risk" that the law would be enforced against the plaintiff, the Court relied on the Ohio Elections Commission's refusal to disavow the possibility of future enforcement, not its failure to apologize for past transgressions. Unlike the Commission in Driehaus, here the law enforcement Defendants confirmed that they are not presently surveilling Reading and have no plans to do so. The record supports them on that score. While Reading continues to author blog posts about the appropriateness of "LGBTQ+ issues in public schools," Defendants have done nothing more to silence or retaliate against her.
Reading also argues that the "voluntary cessation" doctrine excuses her failure to show a likelihood of future harm. That exception to the mootness rule provides that "a defendant's voluntary cessation of a challenged practice will moot a case only if the defendant can show that the practice cannot reasonably be expected to recur." And it ensures that a defendant cannot "suspend its challenged conduct after being sued, win dismissal, and later pick up where it left off." Unable to make out a likelihood of future harm, Reading relies on this doctrine to try to shift her burden of proof—under the voluntary cessation exception, it is Defendants who must make "absolutely clear that [their] allegedly wrongful behavior could not reasonably be expected to recur." Because they have not made this showing, Reading suggests, we have jurisdiction to reverse the District Court's order.
We disagree because Reading cannot recharacterize as mootness what is really a question of standing. This is not a case where Reading once had standing to seek injunctive relief but lost it during the pendency of litigation. Instead, "the issue here" is whether Reading "meets the preconditions for asserting an injunctive claim in a federal forum." Because Reading has not since the filing of her action established a likelihood of future harm, the doctrines of mootness and voluntary cessation provide her no refuge.
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A. If it's unlikely to recur, then why did the "local government officials" fight it? Surely if they recognized the error of their ways, they would instead have apologized and promised to not do it again.
B. If it's unlikely to recur, what's the harm is having the injunction? Surely that would have wasted less of everybody's time (especially the appeals court's time) than denying the harmless injunction and then affirming the denial.
C. If what the "local government officials" did was wrong, why are they not being prosecuted?
Everyone knows the real reason for all three of these rhetorical questions.
"If it's unlikely to recur, what's the harm is having the injunction? Surely that would have wasted less of everybody's time (especially the appeals court's time) than denying the harmless injunction and then affirming the denial."
That would stand the burden of persuasion on its head. "A plaintiff seeking a preliminary injunction must establish that he is likely to succeed on the merits, that he is likely to suffer irreparable harm in the absence of preliminary relief, that the balance of equities tips in his favor, and that an injunction is in the public interest." Winter v. Natural Resources Defense Council, Inc., 555 U.S. 7, 24 (2008). As to the irreparable harm requirement, the plaintiff must show that remedies available at law, such as monetary damages, are inadequate to compensate for that injury. Ebay Inc. v. Mercexchange, L.L.C., 547 U.S. 388, 391 (2006). If preciously occurring harm is unlikely to recur, then the plaintiff has an adequate remedy at law -- monetary damages -- and the harm is not irreparable.
I repeat: if the government won't admit it did wrong and won't promise to not do it again, what is the harm in telling them to not do it again, when the court says they did wrong ("disproportionate", "beyond the pale")?
I repeat: if the government won't admit it did wrong and won't promise to not do it again, what is the harm in telling them to not do it again, when the court says they did wrong ("disproportionate", "beyond the pale")?
An injunction is not "telling them not to do it again." It is an order not to do "it" again, and it comes with the possibility of contempt of court charges if they do, right? Court injunctions should be held to a high standard when it comes to prior restraint. If I'm understanding things correctly, what the targets of the injunction that was being sought are accused of doing is using their own speech in ways that is not protected by the 1st Amendment because of how they used their government positions to add force to their speech. Any injunction against further speech risks going beyond speech that is not protected, causing them to fear saying things that they have a right to say. That is why getting this kind of injunction requires the kinds of evidence that not guilty is talking about. The burden is entirely on the plaintiffs here, and the defendants don't need to make any concessions.
Also, I don't see in this order any enforceable judgement that the defendants "did wrong" and that the plaintiff is entitled to damages. There was no trial on that matter, so, my not-lawyer opinion is that the judge's comments are background or "dicta", if that is the right term. The question before the judge was whether to issue an injunction. The defendants do not have to admit wrong to defend against that question, nor should they have to. Especially if doing so would make it harder to mount a defense against a suit seeking damages for those past actions.
The fact is, it is not in their interests at this time to "admit" to anything that could cost them down the road, nor is it any kind of obligation for them to do so in order to avoid prior restraint on their own speech.
Oh, there's a useful lawyerly distinction.
Some lawyers are heroes of a sort, like Eugene Volokh. Others are quibblers, the scum of the earth, who think quibbling is the highest manifestation of the lawyers' super power of turning every question into a question of procedure.
Ritual over justice.
Yes, the law is not justice. The law must have precision that justice need not.
Because the law is real and justice is vibes.
John Adams said we need a government of laws, not men (maybe, Founders' quotes are tricky).
He's the guy defended British soldiers who had the crowd (wrongly) baying for their blood in the name of justice.
You want it easy, without the quibbling that comes from making sure you're doing it right?
Go find a nice benevolent dictatorship.
Law is only real if it is agreed to and/or followed. Law is as arbitrary as is government - constructs without inherent substance.
Law is vaporous, dependent on people allowing it life. Even so, people allow these concepts only through ignorance and stupidity of themselves and fear of others too.
That's just this shmuck's stick. He says something that makes Brett Bellmore seem like a faithful adherer to precedent, and then when people patiently explain to them that this isn't what the law is, he rants about lawyers and quibbling.
*shtick.
Again, the plaintiff to obtain a preliminary injunction must show that she will sustain irreparable harm -- which cannot be remedied by an award of damages -- which will likely occur before the merits of her claim can be adjudicated. It is not up to the defendants to show that the plaintiff will not be harmed before final judgment.
A preliminary injunction is "an extraordinary remedy that may only be awarded upon a clear showing that the plaintiff is entitled to such relief." Mazurek v. Armstrong, 520 U.S. 968, 972 (1997) (per curiam). A "possibility" of harm pending final judgment is not sufficient; the plaintiff must demonstrate that in the absence of a preliminary injunction, she is likely to suffer irreparable harm before a decision on the merits can be rendered. Winter v. Natural Res. Def. Council, Inc., 555 U.S. 7, 22 (2008).
The officials actions were disproportionate and beyond the pale, said the court.
This is a waste of our time, said the court.
Ritual over justice. You lawyers quibble over meaningless distinctions and laugh at the hoi polloi for speaking only English. And then you act offended when people don't bow and scrape to your wisdom.
To paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld, you go to court with the law you have, not the law you might want or wish to have at a later time.
Yes - ish.
You may be able to find a friendly venue, where the law is more flexible than it at first appears.
That is not, in fact, what the court said.
Could you post an address where you’re willing to accept service? I’d like to sue you for an injunction not to post any jaw-droppingly moronic comments that you never should have submitted. I assume you don’t feel like you’ve done it in the past and don’t do so in the future, so I can only imagine you’ll non-oppose my request. After all, what’s the harm?
Do you imagine that there's some legal standing to sue a private citizen for allegedly posted "jaw-droppingly moronic comments"? Is that legally beyond the pale, analogous to government officials suppressing the free speech rights of a citizen?
Is someone's sarcasm detector off kilter this morning?
Stupid Government Tricks asks legal questions, and then kvetches when other commenters' answers discuss the law.
Disgusting. Why would anyone who cares about justice quibble about the vapid and vacuous ritual of “standing”?
"If what the 'local government officials' did was wrong, why are they not being prosecuted?"
An act being wrong and the same act being criminal are different inquiries. A prosecution under 18 U.S.C. §§ 241 or 242 for "willful" deprivation of federal rights requires the government to show not only that someone was deprived of a federally protected right, but also that the accused specific intended to interfere with the federal right in question. United States v. Guest, 383 U.S. 745, 760 (1966); Screws v. United States, 325 U.S. 91, 106-107 (1945). Criminal liability under §§ 241 or 242 is that it may be imposed for deprivation of a constitutional right if, but only if, in the light of pre-existing law the unlawfulness under the Constitution is apparent. United States v. Lanier, 520 U.S. 259, 271-272 (1997).
Here the plaintiff complains that the specter of government censorship and retaliation has chilled her freedom of speech. However, as SCOTUS opined in Laird v. Tatum, 408 U.S. 1, 13-14 (1972), "Allegations of a subjective 'chill' are not an adequate substitute for a claim of specific present objective harm or a threat of specific future harm[.]" Here, the Court of Appeals opined at footnote 4 on page 17:
This plaintiff is no shrinking violet.
Ad hominem?
"She don't deserve justice, even though their actions were disproportionate and beyond the pale. She dared speak out."
Shrinking violet: a bashful or retiring person.
Ha ha. I don't speak lawyer, you don't speak English. Joke's on you.
You asked, "why are [government officials] not being prosecuted?"
I answered your question, which necessarily requires "speak[ing] lawyer."
One of the defendants in this case provided prima facie evidence that another defendant did specifically intend to interfere with that right, knowing that their actions were unconstitutional.
"Here the plaintiff complains that the specter of government censorship and retaliation has chilled her freedom of speech. However, as SCOTUS opined in Laird v. Tatum, 408 U.S. 1, 13-14 (1972), "Allegations of a subjective 'chill' are not an adequate substitute for a claim of specific present objective harm or a threat of specific future harm[.]" Here, the Court of Appeals opined at footnote 4 on page 17:
Because Reading has appeared on a national television program, participated in a local radio interview, and authored many blog posts about this controversy, she has apparently overcome whatever “subjective chill” she once experienced.
This plaintiff is no shrinking violet."
I'm no lawyer but I thought the standard was what would "chill" a reasonable person's speech. This woman has enough of a backbone to not be suppressed by the vile actions of people using their government positions to try and silence her. Would the same fact pattern with a victim who was cowed into silence warrant a different outcome?
If I am reading the post correctly, the court didn't say she couldn't sue for damages, rather that she wasn't entitled to an injunction while the case proceeded through the normal litigation and discovery process.
This case is merely one more example of woketards using gangster methods to retaliate against dissenters' First Amendment rights. The courts involved, starting with the Third Circuit, need immediate impeachment as their outrageous rulings stand to delegitimize the entire court system and government.
What outrageous ruling did any court make?
The court says the government officials' actions were disproportionate and beyond the pale, the government officials have not promised to not do it again, and the courts' reactions are "we will waste our time telling you to not waste our time with this."
It's government employees shielding government employees from accountability.
So you think that following the established, binding legal standard is "outrageous"? That's certainly a take.
To simplify a bit, the burden is on the plaintiff to establish, inter alia, that the events are likely to recur in the absence of the injunction. She can't do that. "They didn't promise not to do it again" is not sufficient, particularly when — as the court notes — they actually haven't done it in the past two years.
That they did something outrageous to her — assuming she can establish that after a full trial on the merits (or that they admit it) — may be grounds for damages. Which would be "accountability." But this isn't about whether she's entitled to do damages, but whether she's entitled to an injunction.
Looks to me like Reading tried to silence those who disagreed with her using the courts.
Exactly.
I murdered Mary Smith, but you can’t prosecute me because I can’t murder Mary Smith again.
A prosecution is somewhat analogous on the civil side to an action for damages. That would still potentially be available, and indeed I think that claim is still pending in district court.
Wanna bet she isn't on the "No Fly" list?
Yes.
She was, however, "stripped of [her] ‘Trusted Traveler’ status under the CLEAR Program."
Well, privatization.
That's what I was wondering. No injunction, but it sound like she deserves damages.
This has nothing to do with prosecution (punishment). This is about an injunction. You indeed could not be enjoined from murdering Mary Smith if she were already dead.
You speak as if legal terms actually have meaning. It's so unfair...
Jerry B: "I murdered Mary Smith, but you can’t prosecute me because I can’t murder Mary Smith again."
David Neiporent: "This has nothing to do with prosecution (punishment). This is about an injunction. You indeed could not be enjoined from murdering Mary Smith if she were already dead."
David is quite correct. I would observe that neither Mary Smith nor her estate would have standing to sue for an injunction (although the estate could sue for damages).
But her sister Suzie Smith might...
Her sister Susie Smith would not in fact have any standing to sue for an injunction against murdering Mary Smith. If Mary Smith were still alive, Susie would not be the right plaintiff; if Mary Smith were already dead, then — as just noted above — the request would be moot.
I got a feeling there are some military careers that are going to be negatively impacted by the judgement shown by some of those officers.
"But "[t]he Joint Base leadership takes this situation very seriously," and "Security Forces [are] working with multiple state and local law enforcement agencies to monitor the situation to ensure the continued safety of the entire community."
I think the Joint Base Leadership along with Major Schilling and Lt Col. Hall, and Major Lesher, should be given the opportunity to devote their energies to this "situation" full time.
Schillings a Chaplain, another example of why they aren’t needed, and haven’t done anything militarily useful since Pattons Chaplain composed his “Weather Prayer” during the Battle of the Bulge.
Paging Donald Trump, Paging Donald Trump -- you have some housecleaning to do at Joint Base McGuire-Dix Lakehurst.
I think that Trump will be firing a LOT of officers....
He should also rename the bases back to their original names, even if offends some white lefties or blax.
Uh, naming U. S. military bases after generals who waged war on the United States makes just as much as renaming Logan Airport for Khalid Sheikh Muhammed.
Read Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address...
That was then, trying to bind the country back together with magnanimity and good will.
Are those, today, defending it of good will?
When you realize how much more lethal the weapons of today are, I'd like to think so.
Look at all the communities in New England named after Lord Jeffery Amherst, a BRITISH General...
Amherst seems like he was a piece of shit to the natives, but he didn't fight in the American Revolution, Ed.
Confederates did a treason. And Lincoln didn't say 'name your forts after these guys' in his Second Inaugural.
There are, I believe, two communities in New England named for Amherst, who did not ever “wage[] war on the United States”. Both of them were named before the American revolution, and neither is a military base.
Other than that, great point!
Try Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio, Virginia, and Wisconsin.
The Town of Amherst, Massachusetts remained loyal to the British, which is why the Second Parish Church was formed in 1771. Amherst also voted *against* ratification of the US Constitution in 1788.
And when a group of pious Puritan Harvard professors left Harvard in 1821 to form their "college in the wilderness", it was Amherst College that they wound up forming. Amherst was not what it would become 150 years later....
And remember that the so-called "French and Indian Wars" were the British (and their Indian allies) fighting the French (and their Indian allies). The Americans had considered themselves British in the 1750s, and in Amherst (MA) they would still consider themselves such a couple of decades later.
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, but given your monomanicial obsessions I would have expected you to be a little more knowledgeable about something like “whether Wisconsin is in New England”.
Are you implying that they might not realize that Ohio, Virginia, and New York were (and are) also not in New England?
Can anyone explain this one to me? Nobody asked cities to ratify the constitution; ratification was done at state conventions.
Amherst was founded by faculty and students from Williams College, not Harvard.
This appears to be made up as well.
"Read Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address..."
Note the the date of of Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address. Then look at the date military bases named after individuals committing Constitutionally defined treason against their country (Article III, Section 3, Clause 1) first received those names.
These installations were named by 20th Century white supremacists, after long-dead 19th Century white supremacists, in a cynical service of maintaining local government white supremacy. (btw, I'm familiar with the Lost Cause apologia you're about to parrot in defense of these traitors, including the pseudo-academic network generating counterfactual evidence and excuses for the value of evil.)
Want an example? These base names all originated in the first half of the 20th century. When the Army needed to rapidly open new training facilities in the ramp-ups to WWI and WWII, ways of gaining quick local approval for taking the needed land included promises to name them after these locally popular traitors. The former Ft. Benning is representative.
Henry L. Benning was a local lawyer and enslaver who publicly embraced Georgia’s secession as “the only thing that could prevent the abolition of her slavery,” lamenting “the fate which Abolition will bring upon the white race.”
Benning, a middling Confederate general neither better nor worse than dozens of others, was not particularly well-known after the war. But his local popularity was greatly increased by heavy lobbying from the Daughters of the Confederacy (then at the height of their 1900-1930 Lost Cause restoration campaign), who discovered and distributed reprints of his February 1861 speech to the Virginia secession convention, from which the above quotations are taken.
That campaign is the main reason in 1918, at the request of the influential businessmen of the Columbus Rotary Club, the new Army training camp near Columbus, Georgia, was named Camp Benning. Read those quotes again and tell my just why it is you think the U.S. Army should honor this traitor as the symbol of their center of infantry training.
The former Fort Benning is now Fort Moore, named after LTG Hal Moore, considered the father of modern infantry strategy and his wife, Julia Moore, whose outraged advocacy shamed the Army to end wartime death telegrams and notify families in person, and changed how the military treats the widows of fallen soldiers. It is a worthy name for the Army's "Home of the Infantry." (Book recommendation: Hal Moore's We Were Soldiers Once, and Young).
That's just one story. I'd be glad to tell you about others. But, no, you want to preserve the traditions of those, like Henry Benning, committing treason for the single overriding purpose of protecting White Men’s Rights to enslave Black human beings.
The decision to rename those bases was at first unthinkable, then merely difficult, then realistic, and finally inevitable. I'm glad and grateful that events of the 21st century made the action to finally restore some honor to the South by removing the names of traitors from the facilities of my military, easy.
Again, the local popularity of the individuals in question was almost all due to their later success as either symbols or active agents of Lost Cause myth, and their unapologetic brutality while either reversing the gains of Reconstruction, or during the following century spent in enabling and enforcing the de facto apartheid of Jim Crow across the South (including all three waves of KKK terrorism).
Their monuments, whether statues or military bases, are based on their namesakes’ success in, for a time, delaying American progress toward a more perfect union. That time is over. The bases are renamed. The statues are coming down. Their stories will still be told, but only as lessons-learned in human fallibility.
(Sorry, the missed tag made "...book recommendation: Hal Moore's We Were Soldiers Once, and Young," a little confusing to read
So what bases did you serve at? If the answer is "None", as I'd bet my Left Nut it is, shut the fuck up
These installations were named by 20th Century white supremacists, after long-dead 19th Century white supremacists, in a cynical service of maintaining local government white supremacy.
When did the WWII memorial get built?
In both cases, it's 40 years later, as the vets are starting to die of old age, and their grandchildren wish to remember them.
(btw, I'm familiar with the Lost Cause apologia you're about to parrot in defense of these traitors, including the pseudo-academic network generating counterfactual evidence and excuses for the value of evil.)
I qualify for GAR membership -- do you?
"Want an example? These base names all originated in the first half of the 20th century. When the Army needed to rapidly open new training facilities in the ramp-ups to WWI and WWII, ways of gaining quick local approval for taking the needed land included promises to name them after these locally popular traitors.
So? A deal is a deal...
Prior to December 7, 1941, they would not have been able to build those bases without local support.
"Henry L. Benning was a local lawyer and enslaver who publicly embraced Georgia’s secession as “the only thing that could prevent the abolition of her slavery,” lamenting “the fate which Abolition will bring upon the white race.”
Read what Dr. MLK2 said about homosexuals -- or women.
Read those quotes again and tell my just why it is you think the U.S. Army should honor this traitor as the symbol of their center of infantry training.
Read King's quotes and tell me why he deserves a holiday.
named after LTG Hal Moore, considered the father of modern infantry strategy
Which worked SO well in Vietnam....
The decision to rename those bases was at first unthinkable, then merely difficult, then realistic, and finally inevitable.
And now reversible.
I'm glad and grateful that events of the 21st century made the action to finally restore some honor to the South by removing the names of traitors from the facilities of my military, easy.
I'd prefer competence -- yesterday, the USN shot down one of its own planes. I'd prefer competence...
Maybe this can be an occasion to bring back cashiering.
This is another reminder of why, as distasteful as Trump might be, Biden is worse.
This all happened Dec. 2022, its worth noting that AG Garland sent his School Board Harassment memo October 4, 2021.
This seems like a classic case of the harassment and intimidation of a School Board Member that Garland warned about, but orchestrated by Federal officials and local law enforcement.
Thank God our military and DHS are making sure elementary schools can have kids make posters about polysexuality or felching or whatever without parents criticizing them of Facebook.
The people in government have turned these institutions into weapons and are the greatest threat to human freedom and flourishing we've seen on generations.
Maybe Pres. Trump will reduce the threat somewhat.
It is questionable whether service members and DHS officials are suable under 42 U.S.C. § 1983, which affords a remedy only against persons acting under color of state law.
To state a § 1983 claim against federal employees, the plaintiff would need to allege that the defendant federal employees conspired with state officials to violate someone's constitutional rights, thereby acting under color of state law. See, Melo v. Hafer, 912 F.2d 628, 638 (3d Cir. 1990), aff'd, 502 U.S. 21 (1991); Hampton v. Hanrahan, 600 F.2d 600, 623 (7th Cir. 1979), rev'd in part on other grounds, 446 U.S. 754 (1980).
A defendant acts under color of state law "if . . . there is such a close nexus between the State and the challenged action that seemingly private behavior may be fairly treated as that of the State itself." Brentwood Acad. v. Tenn. Secondary Sch. Athletic Ass'n, 531 U.S. 288, 295 (2001). To show such a nexus between state actors and non-state actors, a plaintiff must allege and prove the elements of a civil conspiracy to violate the plaintiff's rights. Adams v. Teamsters, 214 F. App'x 167, 172 (3d Cir. 2007). This agreement can be shown by direct or circumstantial evidence. Ibid.
The sufficiency of a claim for civil conspiracy under state law, brought in federal court, is governed by the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. Adams, at 175. To survive a motion to dismiss, a complaint must contain sufficient factual matter, accepted as true, to state a claim to relief that is plausible on its face. A claim has facial plausibility when the plaintiff pleads factual content that allows the court to draw the reasonable inference that the defendant is liable for the misconduct alleged. The tenet that a court must accept as true all of the allegations contained in a complaint, however, is inapplicable to legal conclusions. Threadbare recitals of the elements of a cause of action, supported by mere conclusory statements, do not suffice. A court is not bound to accept as true a legal conclusion couched as a factual allegation. Ashcroft v. Iqbal, 556 U.S. 662, 678-679 (2009).
They can be prosecuted under the UCMJ. Conduct unbecoming.
What section of UCMJ do you claim applies to military personnel's exercise of First Amendment rights by communicating with civilians on a topic of public interest, unrelated to military matters?
Oh, is that what they were doing? Just exercising their First Amendment rights as would any other member of the community?
Commenting using their titles and positions and framing their comments as falling under their duties to their communities may have given the game away, however.
Given what game away? Why shouldn't they comment about their community safety concerns?
"It is questionable whether service members and DHS officials are suable under 42 U.S.C. § 1983, which affords a remedy only against persons acting under color of state law."
There is at least one Air National Guard unit stationed at Joint Base McGuire-Dix Lakehurst (108th Wing (KC-135 Air Refueling, C-32B) (Air National Guard)) and unless Federalized by the POTUS, ANG are *state* answering to the Governor. As there is a lot of training being done on that base, it is likely that a good chunk of the trainees are also Guard from one of the affiliated branches.
These people exist under the color of state law -- they answer to the Governor....
"To state a § 1983 claim against federal employees, the plaintiff would need to allege that the defendant federal employees conspired with state officials to violate someone's constitutional rights, thereby acting under color of state law.
The police are state, the school folk are all state (this was NOT a base school) and they definitely conspired.
No, they did not "definitely conspire[]." To satisfy the requirements of Fed.R.Civ.P. 8(a), the plaintiff's complaint must allege "at least some facts which could, if proven, permit a reasonable inference of a conspiracy to be drawn. . . . This requirement is established where the complaint sets forth a valid legal theory and it adequately states the conduct, time, place, and persons responsible." Adams v. Teamsters, 214 F. App'x 167, 175 (3d Cir. 2007). The Third Circuit has held that conclusory allegations of "concerted action," without allegations of fact that reflect joint action, are insufficient to meet this requirement. Ibid.
There is no valid legal theory here. As SCOTUS opined in Laird v. Tatum, 408 U.S. 1, 13-14 (1972), "Allegations of a subjective 'chill' [of a plaintiff's First Amendment rights] are not an adequate substitute for a claim of specific present objective harm or a threat of specific future harm[.]"
The crucial question as to whether a conspiracy exists is whether the challenged conduct of the defendants "stems from independent decision or from an agreement, tacit or express" to violate the plaintiff's rights. Bell Atlantic Corp. v. Twombly, 550 U.S. 544, 553 (2007). A plaintiff's offer of conspiracy evidence must tend to rule out the possibility that the defendants were acting independently. Id., at 554.
Facts recited in the Third Circuit opinion would support an inference that some military defendants agreed with one another, as well as an inference that the police chief and school superintendent agreed with one another, but the nexus between the federal defendants and the municipal defendants is lacking. That is insufficient to impose liability on the military defendants.
Major Schilling publicly "rule[d] out the possibility that the defendants were acting independently":
That has absolutely nothing to do with Major Schilling or any other military defendants having conspired with the police chief and/or the school superintendent -- the only municipal officials who were sued.
Mrs. Reading seems to be claiming they acted in concert with state officials.
Merely acting in concert does not suffice to show a conspiratorial agreement. SCOTUS opined in Bell Atlantic Corp. v. Twombly, 550 U.S. 544 (2007) -- the seminal case on whether a federal civil complaint states a claim upon which relief can be granted -- that:
Id., at 556=557.
It’s by no means clear to me that Mrs. Reading’s claim to standing is based on less evidence than in a number of other well-known cases. For example, in Bowers v. Hardwick, Mr. Hardwick’s claim to standing, accepted by all federal courts hearing the case including the Supreme Court, was based on a single arrest, with no more evidence it would be likely to be repeated than in Mrs. Reading’s case.
Moreover, the overbreadth doctrine suggests First Anendment cases get standing interpreted more easily than other cases.
The interlocutory appeal here pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 1292 was only as to the District Court's denial of a preliminary injunction. The Court of Appeals did not opine that the plaintiff had no standing to seek a permanent injunction or to seek money damages.
The plaintiffs in Bowers appealed from a dismissal of the complaint entirely. The Court of Appeals there opined that two heterosexual (husband and wife) plaintiffs did not have standing to sue: "The State is not currently prosecuting Hardwick or the Does under the sodomy statute. The Does have never been arrested under the statute and Hardwick cannot rely solely on his past arrest to confer upon him standing to challenge the constitutionality of the statute." Hardwick v. Bowers, 760 F.2d 1202, 1204-1205 (11th Cir. 1985), rev'd on other grounds, 478 U.S. 186 (1986).
The Court of Appeals found that Mr. Hardwick, who alleged in his complaint that he is a practicing homosexual who regularly engages in private homosexual acts and will do so in the future, did have standing, observing that "A general threat of prosecution against an identifiable group may confer standing in some instances." Id., at 1205. The Court elaborated:
Ibid. [Footnote omitted.]
The OP's title made me think about the phrase "beyond the pale," which I had to good to learn the etymology. Interesting. That made me think about the antonym for this phrase..."within the pale."
I've heard "beyond the pale" many times in my life. Not often, but plenty when added up. But I have *never* heard 'within the pale' ever used. According to nGrams, "Within" was vastly more commonly used until around 1899, when "Beyond" became more common...and today it looks like it's currently used about 5x as often as "within." (This surprised me--I would have expected 'within' to be even less frequent, based on my personal sample size of one.)
"I've heard "beyond the pale" many times in my life. Not often, but plenty when added up. But I have *never* heard 'within the pale' ever used."
Well, maybe if you altered your conduct...
To paraphrase Cicero, this is yet one more piece of evidence that there is no position so absurder that it has not been advocated by some court.
I hope this woman wins a big damage claim. But I agree she doesn't seem to need an injunction.
I really wish the non-lawyers who read and comment on the VC would at least listen when the lawyers explain things.
"I really wish the non-lawyers who read and comment on the VC would at least listen when the lawyers explain things."
Give that commenter a cigar!
This blog attracts more than its share of law dilletantes, who have never tried to persuade a judge or jury of anything, bloviating as to what they imagine the law should be rather than what the law is.
As Mark Twain is reported to have said, it ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.
NG, this is why I ask you lots of questions. I've never done it.
Keep in mind that he and other trained lawyers have insisted very vocally, inter alia, that Fani Willis had no conflict of interest in prosecuting Donald Trump et al. and that SarbOx charges were properly brought against J6 defendants.
Us legal dilettantes have pointed out otherwise, as well as been right about less legally focused matters such as Hunter Biden's laptop and Joe Biden's dementia.
I learn a lot from not guilty, and others, Michael P. The legal questions are often difficult, and novel.
I prefer to seek sources that are reliably accurate and ideally useful. Maybe that's just me. I don't need sources who pretend that a military officer making pronouncements in an official capacity is an "exercise of First Amendment rights by communicating with civilians on a topic of public interest, unrelated to military matters".
"Keep in mind that he and other trained lawyers have insisted very vocally, inter alia, that Fani Willis had no conflict of interest in prosecuting Donald Trump et al. and that SarbOx charges were properly brought against J6 defendants."
Uh, four judges have concluded that Fani Willis had no actual conflict of interest in prosecuting Donald Trump. https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2024/12/trumpgaappealsopn121924.pdf Two appellate judges opined that an appearance of conflict is sufficient to disqualify; the trial court and the dissenting appellate judge found to the contrary.
Charging the January 6 rioters with violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1612(c)(2) was valid under then-existing law. The Supreme Court subsequently changed the interpretation of the statute.
Not guilty certainly has a Trump fixation, and that does lead him to overstate (often substantially) the strength of the anti-Trump position. That said, his analysis is consistently grounded in legal authority, and he’s shown himself willing to engage in meaningful and substantive discussion of them, which is more than I can say with the majority of his more ideologically-congenial interlocutors.
Thank you for your kind words. I do regard Donald Trump as loathsome and reprehensible, and I am quick to call out those who genuflect to him. (Especially when they make shit up.) I have been a partisan Democrat all my adult life, and I have never pretended otherwise.
I realize that I am as subject to confirmation bias as the next fellow. That is why, when I take a controversial position, I am careful to support it with legal authority and links to original source materials where I can. When I engage in conjecture or speculation, I acknowledge that that is what I am doing. When I don't know something, I am not embarrassed to say so.
How many of my critics can say the same?
Commenter_XY, I wasn't referring to you. There is much that you and I disagree about politically, but you seem to be a decent fellow.
Yeah, these government officials should be perfectly free to continue harassing private citizens and stirring the community up against people who have the unmitigated gall to challenge elementary schools teaching their students to accept deviant sexualities!
... says a bunch of mindless jerks who’ll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes, to coin a phrase.
The article is about a court case about an injunction. An injunction. You know, equitable relief, not legal damages? Oh, never mind...
They have not in fact "continued" doing anything. These events took place over a short period two years ago, and have not recurred.
How the law hath strayed from its humble roots ... now only the self-proclaimed elite can tell us what is legal.
Mr Volokh, I don't think your approach on education is informed.
Finally , someone said it simply
Cruz: ‘School Choice Is The Civil Rights Issue Of The 21st Century’
As a parent and a college teacher, I SEE this. When you and I are dead the world belongs to the kids now in school. I assure you, my students cannot read, their math is terrible (maybe 1/3 are barely 8th grade level) and they don't even know the grammar of their own language. Why are the first 8 years of school called Grammar School. Many don't know adverbs, participles, or what constitutes a valid sentence.
And crucially, some of my best students are Vietnamese and English-as-second language because : They are not lazy, they have had to learn just to get by in society. My worst students are the privileged who have all the breaks, going to 'good schools' that asked nothing of them
Cruz: ‘School Choice Is The Civil Rights Issue Of The 21st Century’
How is school choice going to get future voters to understand that ignorance isn't a virtue? Won't those students' parents just choose schools based on popular criteria, and won't those schools simply teach what the ignorant parents demand?
Won't those students' parents just choose schools based on popular criteria, and won't those schools simply teach what the ignorant parents demand?
It was always pretty obvious to me that this is the primary motivation for support for vouchers among religious conservatives. They want subsidies to send their kids to religious schools that won't teach them about evil-ution, will teach them that being gay is bad, etc. It is the modern equivalent of 'segregation academies'.
Why is it necessary to discuss ANY aspect of sex with per-pubescent second graders? These are children who believe in Santa Claus and Winnie the Pooh -- let them enjoy being children...
So like, no families at all? Just the stork?
For six year olds? Yes!
From what I could see in what Eugene posted, no one was saying anything about sex, as in sex acts, how babies are made, or anything like that.
One such poster, anchored in the center by the acronyms "LGBTQ" and "UES," featured descriptions of various sexual identities and their corresponding flags. The poster included a "bi" flag, a "genderfluid" flag, and a "polysexual" flag, among others. It announced that "different is cool" and instructed students that "you are who you are."
For people like you that think that "bi", "genderfluid", or "polysexual" are ideas that elementary aged children shouldn't be encountering, it is something that only applies to those non-conforming identities. Saying that a man and a woman got married and had kids because they "love each other very much" to a 6 yr old wouldn't make you bat an eye, I would guess. But anything that deviates from "traditional" romantic relationships, or gender roles and identities, is going to trigger your outrage. The only way that isn't logically inconsistent is if you believe that those that don't conform to cis-gendered, heterosexual norms is fundamentally immoral and perverted.
Ok so that means not exposing, as you say, 6 year olds to:
* Ramona
* The Wizard of Oz
* Winnie-the-Pooh
* Cinderella
* Jack and the Beanstalk
* Little Red Riding Hood
* Goldilocks
Etc. etc., because they all have families, implying sex, and not storks.
That's stupid beyond belief, Dr. Ed 2. Not to mention censorious. But mostly, insanely, stupid.
Current voters already think ignorance is a virtue. Just look at AtR's comments on this post, for example. among others (e.g. Stupid & Pichael). That's what it means when they disparage us elites.
But to some extent, they're right. Our 75-year egalitarian focus on merit has worked: society is stratified according to ability, mostly intelligence but also a few other niches for the truly exceptional, like athletes and pop artists. The unexceptional are then left to serve and resent their "elite" overlords. It probably isn't sustainable... and maybe school choice is part of the solution? Not everyone will choose ignorance, but even if some people do... is there really any harm in that? It potentially could open up new, "diverse" routes to success in society.
"How is school choice going to get future voters to understand that ignorance isn't a virtue."
Two words: Heterogeneous Grouping otherwise known as "mixed ability grouping."
It's having an 11th Grader who can effectively argue either side of the issues related to Lincoln's suspension of the writ of Habeas Corpus in Maryland sitting next to an 11th Grader who considers it really cool that you can see Lincoln on the reverse of the old pennies if you look really close.
The ignorant parents can send their children to ignorant schools, the issue is to make this a CHOICE so that parents who seek rigor can have it.
I blame their teacher.
Cruz: ‘School Choice Is The Civil Rights Issue Of The 21st Century’
School choice cannot possibly live up to this hype coming from the right wing and libertarians. They want to sell it to groups that don't have equal access to quality education as a way for them all to get better access. The problem is that school choice, as designed by those kinds of advocates and the politicians implementing it, simply can't do that. I can only believe that it isn't the intention of those pushing for it and implementing it for it to do that, either.
Reason #1 - The schools will have choice as well as the parents. Private schools can set whatever standards they want for students that enroll. If they want to appeal to the smartest kids with the most involved parents, they can do that. In fact, those are the 'elite' private schools that boast 99%+ 4-year college acceptance rates, high SAT/ACT scores, and other superlatives for their graduates. They also have tuition far above whatever the local districts spend per pupil, and that scales for cities and states that spend a ton of money. Tuition at the top private schools in Florida? $15-20k/year compared to public school spending ~$10k. Tuition at top private schools in places like NYC? Upwards of $40k, for sure.
Reason #2 - Proximity - No matter what voucher a parent has, they still have to get their kid to the school. The best private schools are not going to be in high poverty neighborhoods, that is for sure.
Reason #3 - Cost - I don't see any voucher program in any state that has one guaranteeing that the voucher will cover 100% of the tuition, no matter what school the parent chooses. Vouchers never exceed the base per pupil spending in public schools, and usually are at least a little less, so those elite private schools where tuition is often double that voucher? They will have to either forgive the excess as a scholarship or ask for an additional contribution that the parents are not going to be able to afford. Likely, they just won't participate in the program at all. If they want to attract top students from poor neighborhoods, they will do that with their own scholarship money from donors (or the wealthy families paying full tuition) that don't come with any government strings attached.
The "civil rights issue of our time"? Cruz is blowing smoke up the asses of desperate parents in poor neighborhoods. The handful of such parents that are actually able to take advantage of these programs for their kids will be the price Cruz-types in state legislatures pay so they can subsidize (conservative) middle class and upper middle class families that were already able to send their kids to successful schools, private or public.
This is a weird argument on your part. You're saying that poor people would be better off being required to live in government housing projects because housing vouchers wouldn't cover a penthouse on Park Avenue.
Nothing surprises me in the People's Republic of NJ.
It is unfortunate that Angela Reading had to remove her children from public schools that they were attending due to threats of violence against them.
From an NJ state law perspective, having to remove your children from public schools (you paid property taxes for) certainly interfered with Ms. Read's children's right to a 'thorough and efficient' education. Under the NJ state constitution, as I understand it from NJSC rulings, children have the right to a 'thorough and efficient' education. That didn't happen here. The state of NJ utterly failed Angela Read's children. Who takes up their cause?
I don't understand the prelim injunction suit. The damage is done.
It is unfortunate that Angela Reading had to remove her children from public schools that they were attending due to threats of violence against them.
Where does the post say that's why she did so?
Seems like she opened her fat yap to complain about the school's approach to diversity and inclusion, and caught a fair amount of heat from other people with kids at the same school. She couldn't take the heat.
From the post above...Since the controversy began, Reading lost a job offer, resigned from her position on the Northern Burlington County Regional School Board, and withdrew her children from public schools.
I think he means, what "threats of violence" against her children?
All I saw in the article was a quote from the police chief, referring to the "threat of violence" supposedly from people inflamed by and sympathetic to Reading's position, not from people opposed to her or her position. Her children's safety would not have been (directly) threatened by her own supporters.
Right. A simple ctrl-f search of the opinion shows that that passage is the only place that the word "violence" appears. The only appearance of the word "violent" is the following passage:
The opinion nowhere mentions violence or any threat thereof against Ms. Reading's children.
"Threats of violence," CXY. You're inserting that into the narrative.
I do believe I'd "open my fat yap" and then some if my 7-year-old came home from school and asked me what the word "polysexual" means after reading it on a school-sanctioned poster.
I suspect that's the same for a quite large cross-section of the populace, many of which may be just fine with their kids learning about alternative sexual expressions, but certainly not before the vast majority of them have even learned about what sex itself is.
You and the rest of middle America can have their issues, but answering a question like "what does polysexual mean" is no different from answering a question like "Why does Billy have two mommies" or "Why is Ms. Davis pregnant if she's not married" or "Can I marry Joey? He's my boyfriend". These are not inherently sexual topics unless and until the adults teaching kids about these concepts make them so.
It is a mystery to me why topics like heterosexual marriage, pregnancy, and giving birth are natural topics to discuss with small children, in age-appropriate ways, while other LGBT or LGBT-adjacent topics are inherently sexual and so inappropriate for children. In any event, that belief (which I agree is shared by many other Americans) is incoherent and outdated.
As for the term "polysexual" - I thought at first that was a mis-remembered term. Evidently it has an assigned meaning. If I were a parent, explaining it to my kid, I'd probably say that "polysexual" is a made-up term that some very silly people made up for themselves, and probably a bit too complicated to explain.
"Polysexual means that you are mentally ill and ought to be locked up in the nuthouse, except we closed all of them in the '80s."
or
"Polysexual means a person you should stay away from."
Is it really a mystery that the vast majority of parents (and, let's be clear, the vast majority of schools outside of loony-toon-land) both view as different and expose children at a different pace to 1) the broader concept of reproduction, and 2) the sex act itself? That seems neither complicated nor particularly controversial.
That actually seems like a decent working definition across the board.
Is it really a mystery...
We're not talking about "sex acts," LoB. "Polysexual" does not require saying anything about sex or reproduction, for that matter.
That actually seems like a decent working definition across the board.
And referring to your responses on the issue as "bigoted" would be simplifying and decently accurate, but you'll note that I'm not inclined to lean on that crutch.
I'm not inclined to lean on that crutch.
You'd rather feign ignorance? I don't get that.
I'm with you on reproduction (nor did I say otherwise), but *sexual has nothing to do with sexuality? Really?
I guess if you're being literalistic on "does not require," parents are not required to be truthful with their children about the meaning of any word. But there's no reason an elementary school should be putting them in that position by deliberately introducing their children to age-inappropriate words and concepts.
How agreeing with a definition you proposed could possibly be "bigoted" is left as an exercise for the reader.
I'm with you on reproduction (nor did I say otherwise), but *sexual has nothing to do with sexuality? Really?
In another comment, you claimed to have a lengthy history of engaging in thoughtful commentary. But here I find you engaging in just bad-faith, feigned nonsense, which requires me to repeat myself and to patiently explain to you things that I think you actually understand.
Describing to a child what "polysexual" means - if one endeavors to do so at all; I can forgive someone for not doing so, given that it is one of these categories that is so narrowly specific as to be less meaningful than it is a "look at me, I'm special!" kind of thing - does not require saying anything other than, "it's the sort of person who likes to date people who feel like they are a little bit boy, and a little bit girl." The same way you would describe a "straight" person, not as "well, it's a dude who likes to stick his dick in women" but rather, "it's a man who likes to date women, or a woman who likes to date men."
How agreeing with a definition you proposed could possibly be "bigoted" is left as an exercise for the reader.
An exercise you couldn't bother doing, I see.
LoB - this is the last time I am going to engage with your comments like you're simply misunderstanding me honestly. But your prior comment implied that my description of the somewhat silly category "polysexual" might be extended to all such "alternative sexual expressions." That - including the decision to collapse these categories into the term "alternative sexual expressions" - is what I was insinuating to be "bigoted."
But again, I don't like to lean on that term. Calling you a bigot is not a refutation of anything you've said, and it's not a defense of anything I've said. Using it would, however, simplify the discussion, perhaps bringing it to the level where you prefer to operate.
It is a mystery to me why topics like heterosexual marriage, pregnancy, and giving birth are natural topics to discuss with small children, in age-appropriate ways, while other LGBT or LGBT-adjacent topics are inherently sexual and so inappropriate for children.
It is? He told you the answer:
alternative sexual expressions
The sexual part isn't even the problem, it's the alternative part. A family with two dads isn't any more or less sexual than one with a mom and a dad, but it is "alternative."
I mean, they don't like innocuous drag shows but are fine putting their own children into sexualized pageants, as long as the sexualization is the "normal" kind:
https://www.universalroyalty.com/files/129322541.jpg
In other word(s), bigotry.
"I mean, they don't like innocuous drag shows"
There's no such thing as an "innocuous drag show". So thank you for showing us you're a lunatic.
All drag show, by their very nature, are freak shows. And no, you shouldn't be pushing freak shows on kids.
It is a mystery to me why topics like heterosexual marriage, pregnancy, and giving birth are natural topics to discuss with small children, in age-appropriate ways, while other LGBT or LGBT-adjacent topics are inherently sexual and so inappropriate for children.
This you must be really stupid.
"Where did I come from"? You came from a male and a female having sex with each other, creating a baby which spent 9 months (most of the time) growing in mommy's womb before coming out into the world.
Unless there was artificial insemination, in which case the sex wasn't there, but the rest is still true.
If you're not a completely screwed up loser, then step one is you teach kids about the normal case, and in later years you add on the edge cases / abnormal cases
Calling that "bigotry" just shows you're a moron
You guys keep wanting everything to be about sex. Everything isn't about sex, especially for kids. Why are you always thinking about sex with kids, Greg?
Winnie-the-Pooh isn't about sex. But Roo's mom is Kanga. That's enough to get it banned by your logic. And if you think Winnie-the-Pooh is fine, but another story where a penguin has two dads should be banned, that makes you a bigot.
A family with two dads isn't any more or less sexual than one with a mom and a dad, but it is "alternative."
Wow you are an idiot.
1: The ONLY family that has "Two dads" is where mom had sex with one dad to produce some of the children, and with the other dad to produce the other children. Yes, talking about sex with multiple people is more sexual than talking about being monogamous, get over it
2: The other "families" either have a dad and a step dad, or two step dads. Two men can't produce a baby together
What you're really bitching about is that reality doesn't agree with your fantasies, and that makes you cry
That seems a little overwrought.
Alice and Bob adopting a baby and Adam and Steve adopting a baby seem to require the same amount of sex.
(That said, I'm kinda on the parent's side of this. If someone else's elementary school kid asks 'Where do babies come from' or 'Is Santa real' I think the correct response is 'Ask you parents'.)
This isn't about "where do babies come from" though. The poster in this case wasn't about the reproductive process. It was about relationships and families. Practically all kids books involve relationships and families, and no one ever freaked out about the sexual implications before.
"Where do babies come from" isn't the question. That's a strawman injected into the conversation by short bus Greg. I think everybody agrees schools shouldn't be broaching that subject until the kids are older.
The question here is more like "Why does Brandon have two mommies," and the answer is not Greg's fever dream of "Well, they like to fuck each other and that means Brandon probably got squirted up into one of their pussies out of a turkey baster!" Obviously. The answer is just "Brandon's moms fell in love and decided to start a family." Why is that so hard? Man you guys are all sick in the head... and the heart.
It is a mystery to me why topics like heterosexual marriage, pregnancy, and giving birth are natural topics to discuss with small children, in age-appropriate ways, while other LGBT or LGBT-adjacent topics are inherently sexual and so inappropriate for children.
It's not a mystery to me. What is traditional (aka, "normal") is familiar and not threatening. That which breaks with tradition (aka, "abnormal") is unfamiliar and thus threatening and scary. Add in a dose of bigotry by some people that view anything LGBTQ+ as perverse and immoral, and it is not at all surprising or difficult to understand why there are so many people that get bent out of shape over these topics as they apply to LGBTQ+ issues and people, when they see no problem with those issues as they apply to what they consider "normal" people.
You can open you fat yap, and then when the rest of the world's yaps start calling you Brian the Bigot, you can freak out, pull you kids out of school, and sue somebody. It's the American way!
It is unfortunate that Angela Reading had to remove her children from public schools that they were attending due to threats of violence against them.
For the zillionth time, you've made up some threats of violence where there were none.
Really???
Really.
Yes, you doofus.
Can you point to some evidence of that?
Well, with a good lawyer and the FAPE law, the public school will be paying for private school.
As an aside, I was curious what "pale" in "beyond the pale" meant. It is an enclosed area, in this context, implying an acceptable area, and the same root word as palisade, an area enclosed by palisades, ultimately stakes.
So I went to Google to type it in and Google suggested endings.
Beyond the spiderverse
See my earlier response, on this point. 🙂
As part of its 2022 "Week of Respect," the School invited students to design posters "demonstrat[ing] that UES [is] a safe place where everyone [is] accepted."
Since Angela Reading wasn't accepted there, obviously UES is not a "safe place", and everyone involved with harassing her should be immediately fired.
Leftism is a mental disorder.
Reminds me of the SCOTUS rebuke of Colorada justices.
Those judges should be in jail
“To describe a man's faith as 'one of the most despicable pieces of rhetoric that people can use' is to disparage his religion in at least two distinct ways: by describing it as despicable, and also by characterizing it as merely rhetorical—something insubstantial and even insincere,” wrote Justice Anthony Kennedy for the majority in Masterpiece.
SAID SCOTUS
“To describe a man's faith as 'one of the most despicable pieces of rhetoric that people can use' is to disparage his religion in at least two distinct ways: by describing it as despicable, and also by characterizing it as merely rhetorical—something insubstantial and even insincere,” wrote Justice Anthony Kennedy for the majority in Masterpiece.
“This sentiment is inappropriate for a Commission charged with the solemn responsibility of fair and neutral enforcement of Colorado's anti-discrimination law—a law that protects discrimination on the basis of religion as well as sexual orientation.
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I am not a Trmper but time for him to cast these stupid bigoted anti-American bastards into the outer darkness -- to the applause of tens of millions