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Sixth Circuit Will Rehear En Banc Case Involving High School's Pronoun Policy
The order granting rehearing was just filed today, so the court will reconsider the case in the coming months. Here's an excerpt from the now-vacated panel majority opinion (Judge Jane Stranch, joined by Judge Stephanie Davis), which deals with school policies that "prohibit students from repeatedly and intentionally using non-preferred pronouns to refer to their classmates":
Tinker v. Des Moines Ind. Cmty. Sch. Dist. (1969) … does not require school authorities to wait for a disturbance before regulating speech, nor does it "require certainty that disruption will occur." Even this limited preliminary injunction record contains evidence of the substantial disruption that repeated, intentional use of non-preferred pronouns to refer to transgender students can cause. The PDE parent-members themselves "understand[]" that use of non-preferred pronouns "will be considered 'insulting,' 'humiliating,' 'dehumanizing,' 'derogatory,' and 'unwanted' to those who want to go by different pronouns."
PDE also attached to its preliminary injunction motion an article containing a therapist's explanation that students who "have been misgendered all day" often become "traumatized," "humiliated," and "cry after school." This evidence dovetails with a study, cited by the district court, collecting literature on the "measurable psychological and physiological harms" that can be caused by use of non-preferred pronouns. And it supports the conclusion that transgender students experience the use of non-preferred pronouns as dehumanizing and that, as a result, the repeated use of such pronouns can have severely negative effects on children and young adults….
PDE … asserts that by preventing the use of non-preferred pronouns, the District's policies unconstitutionally discriminate based on viewpoint. Depending on the speech's forum, the government may sometimes enact content-based restrictions on speech, but "viewpoint discrimination"—that is, "regulating speech when the specific motivating ideology or the opinion or perspective of the speaker is the rationale for the restriction"—is typically "presumed impermissible." Rosenberger v. Rector (1995).
Although the Supreme Court has suggested that "it might well be appropriate to tolerate some targeted viewpoint discrimination in [the] unique setting" of public schools, our precedent requires that restrictions on student speech be consistent "with both the Tinker standard and Rosenberger's prohibition on viewpoint discrimination." As a result, a school may engage in content discrimination, which is "permissible if it preserves the purposes of" the forum (e.g., prohibiting disruption), but not "viewpoint discrimination, which is presumed impermissible when directed against speech otherwise within the forum's limitations" (e.g., prohibiting selected forms of disruption based on the ideology expressed).
Applying this standard in the public school context, we have explained "that a blanket ban on the use of `odious racial epithets' by 'proponents of all views' constitutes mere content-based regulation, while a ban on the use of racial slurs by one group of speakers but not 'those speakers' opponents' constitutes viewpoint-discrimination." Likewise, a dress code that bars all clothing exhibiting "symbols which 'cause[] disruption to the educational process'" is a permissible content-based regulation, whereas one banning certain "racially sensitive symbols and not others" is impermissible viewpoint discrimination, In other words, schools may permissibly enact and enforce blanket bans on particularly disruptive symbols or speech, but may not regulate speech as a means of silencing a particular viewpoint.
The challenged Policies here proscribe harassment, misconduct, and other disruptive speech across a variety of categories. That structure, and the District's position that students may communicate their belief that sex is immutable through means other than the use of non-preferred pronouns, indicate that the District is not attempting to prohibit any viewpoints. Nor is there any evidence, on this preliminary injunction record, that the District's enforcement of the Policies is different regarding gender identity as compared to any other protected characteristic….
And from Judge Alice Batchelder's dissent:
As I understand it, the plaintiffs' position—based on their scientific (biology, physiology, and genetics) and religious beliefs—is that biological gender is immutable, people are either male or female, and there is no such thing as "gender transition"; that is a made-up thing, imaginary or make believe, and a public school cannot force their children to pretend it is a real thing. Agree or disagree, but that is their position.
In that light, the speech at issue here concerns the existence of gender transition, not just a debate about gender-identity issues or misgendering. The Olentangy Local School District's view—contrary to Parents Defending Education's—is that there is such a thing as gender transition; it is real, worthy of recognition and, in fact, worthy of protection in the public schools. Why else would the District require preferred pronouns, prohibit biological pronouns, or press the odd compromise of no pronouns at all? Therefore, the governmental authority (the District) has taken a clear position (viewpoint) in which all of its captive subjects (students) must affirm the existence of gender transition (either through words or silence), regardless of their own view. This is a viewpoint-based regulation of speech.
And in this light, it is also compelled speech—the students' only options begin from the District's viewpoint that gender transition is a real thing; from there the students must conform their own expression around that viewpoint. The Constitution prohibits this. See W. Va. State Bd. of Educ. v. Barnette (1943) ("If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in … matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."); Tinker v. Des Moines Ind. Cmty. Sch. Dist. (1969) (schoolchildren do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate").
The majority proceeds from this premise as well, concluding that there is no compelled speech because students are not compelled to use preferred pronouns; they can comply by avoiding the use of otherwise ordinary and commonplace biological pronouns and by instead referring to these particular classmates by name only, using no pronouns at all. Obviously, this awkward adjustment (of using no pronouns) requires the speaker to recognize and accept that gender transition is a real thing and that it applies to these particular students.
The majority also concludes that there is no viewpoint problem here because the District has expressed no view about whether gender transition is good or bad, and the students remain free to discuss or debate it. That is like saying the school has taken no viewpoint on ghosts when it has students debate whether ghosts are good or evil. But the plaintiffs' point would be that there is no such thing as ghosts! And the school has no business forcing children to believe in ghosts. Again, whether you agree or disagree, PDE's position is that gender transition is fictitious, just like ghosts…. [And t]he lead Sixth Circuit case on viewpoint-based speech regulations confirms that a viewpoint-specific ban cannot survive regardless of whether it meets Tinker's substantial-disruption test.
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Nothing says "trust me" like requiring students to deny the rules of English, and be enablers of the delusional.
Nothing encourages tossing someone down a staircase than being punished for using the unapproved gender....
You think the jocks that called me a girl in high school would have been moved to murder if a teacher had called them on their bullshit?
Seems kinda harsh. They were just dumb jocks, not snowflakes like you.
Are you a girl ? If not why were the jocks calling you one ?
Are you arguing that calling someone a girl when that person is in fact a boy is bullshit ? That seems to be at odds with the now vacated 6th Circuit panel decision.
And what is this thing about murderering you ? Are you a ghost ?
If they'd been kicked off the team for it, they'd have been pissed -- at you....
If I really want to be called 'Your Majesty' or 'Mr President' or 'Your mom's pimp' will the school accommodate me and force all the other students to address me as such? If no why not? Why do other students get to be accommodated on what hurts their feelings and I don't?
For the same reason Jewish students are told “TS!” when “pro-Palestinian” student-activists scream for their blood, while a black student reporting that someone looked at them funny is a three-alarm-fire / all-hands-on-deck emergency, complete with investigations, suspensions / expulsions, a series of campus-wide emails from the college president, etc., etc.
“Under DEI, one’s degree of oppression is determined based upon where one resides on a so-called intersectional pyramid of oppression where whites, Jews, and Asians are deemed oppressors, and a subset of people of color, LGBTQ people, and/or women are deemed to be oppressed.”
source: https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1742441534627184760
In other words, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and the squeaking coming from the Majesty/President/Mom's Pimp aggrieved group just isn't loud enough yet.
It's not a far walk from forcing kids to agree that gender is a choice to forcing them to agree that 2+2=5.
Welcome to 1984, just a few decades late.
Jordan Peterson has repeatedly made this point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson#Bill_C-16
Ein kleinigkeit,
No one is forcing them to agree that gender is a choice.
Third-person English pronouns have an embedded gender. Being forced to call person-born-John "she" or person-born-Jane "he" is being forced to claim that John is now female or Jane is now male.
In other words, the school is insisting that students who don't believe that John is now female must lie.
If you're telling them that they MUST use those pronouns, then yes, you're forcing them to agree that gender is a choice.
You’re obviously a shithead, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok to refer to you as a shithead in class.
These rules are about maintaining a decent learning environment. There’s no right for students to be allowed to say anything they think is true just because they think it’s true.
The writing is on the wall. "He" and "she" are going the way of "thy" and "thou." Soon everyone will be "they," largely because of crybabies like you. I've been hearing it more and more on TV, someone will refer to a person as "they" even though the person is standing right there with unambiguous gender. Even named! "Mike is the only remaining contestant and they could win up to a million dollars!" for example.
thanks !!
Until the DSM V, trannies were considered mentally ill and there was not a scintilla of scientific evidence presented to justify this decision. Instead, it was a majority vote of the APA which is kinda like repealing the 1st Amendment via a majority vote of the ABA.
What I don't see mentioned is the concept of compelled speech -- in being forced to use the preferred pronouns, students are being required to affirm something they do not believe to be true.
And in terms of psychological damage, being forced to do this by admin fiat is at least as traumatizing as being misgendered.
Of all the problems in K-12 today, the hurt feelings of the mentally ill aren't at the top of the list.
"What I don’t see mentioned is the concept of compelled speech — in being forced to use the preferred pronouns, students are being required to affirm something they do not believe to be true."
So you think a teacher telling a student to stop calling another student "christofascist" would be inappropriate? That's compelled speech, no?
"Of all the problems in K-12 today, the hurt feelings of the mentally ill aren’t at the top of the list."
Of all the problems in the USA today, trans issues aren't at the top of the list, but conservatives needed a new scapegoat after they lost on same-sex marriage so here we are†.
________
†Seriously, look at the timeline. Conservatives have never been trans-friendly, but the hostility and hatred started really amping up after y'all lost so hard on SSM. About all Trump said about trans folk before he was elected was Caitlyn Jenner could use whatever bathroom she wanted. Now anti-trans ads make up a significant minority of his campaign ads in the final stretch. Y'all got bamboozled into caring about this issue.
Conservatives didn't care about this issue until Progressives pushed it to the point where they were mutilating children, eliminating women's sports, putting men in women's prisons where they can rape women.
Let's see...
A lie, hasn't happened, and it's funny that the only time you care about rape (prison or otherwise) is when you can connect it to anti-trans bigotry.
Face it, you were duped to think that how the nation treats less then 1% of the population was a huge monumental issue.
"hasn’t happened"
Are you for real? The "trans agenda" has been undoing 5 decades of feminist progress.
Trans-anything are welcome to compete in men's sports which by now should be a completely open category.
That’s way overstated.
Women are a lot better off than in the 1980s regardless of how you define women.
Which is why so many men wish they were women...
I don't think a lot of men wish they were women.
Something you want to tell us, Ed?
Gaslighto, what do you think a tranny IS????
And no, I'm not one.
That’s way overstated for another reason. My bubble is pretty liberal, and I don’t know anyone who thinks that trans women should be competing against biological females in competitive sports as a general rule. There’s like one or two cases of it happening, for whatever anomalous reasons, but it’s not the problem you think it is. Nobody is advocating for it.
Conservatives didn’t care about this issue until Progressives pushed it to the point where they were mutilating children, eliminating women’s sports, putting men in women’s prisons where they can rape women.
False. Conservatives started making this a national part of their politics before Charlotte's thing was even passed. They've always got to have an out group to hate on. It was gays, now it's trans. (And immigrants.) It's just the way conservatives' minds are wired. Like a seven-year-old's.
We should have drawn the line there.
Hell, I remember when they were just asking to be left alone, and that WAS reasonable.
Transgender as a cause did not even exist until the proponents of gay marriage won their battle and suddenly found they had lost influence. Same thing as happened with pollution - they had to keep fighting SOMETHING so they redefined carbon as a pollutant.
Nope. The Republican National Committee kicked things off in January 2016 with an anti-trans statement out of their Charleston meeting. That was the first national salvo. Not even any local ordinances, like the famous Charlotte one, had been passed at that point.
That was just a few months after Obergefell. The Republicans moved quickly. They can’t survive for long without a boogeyman to scare evangelicals into voting. So now they hate trans people. Like, this tiny tiny minority. I guess the tinier the better. But it sure is insane, retarded, and hateful.
Not a scintilla of scientific evidence except for all the evidence. It's always been considered an indication of mental illness if you're driven to deny an objective fact right in your face.
Seriously, this is no different from the dysphoria where somebody up and decides that their arm is a foreign growth, and is desperate to have it amputated.
Uh huh. You a doctor? No. You just want to hate some people.
It’s always been considered an indication of mental illness if you’re driven to deny an objective fact right in your face.
Wow. This is the man who routinely denies anything negative about Trump, no matter how well-supported. More evidence that Brett is a candidate for least self-aware creature in the universe.
That was literally discussed extensively in the opinion.
The majority's opinion was an excellent example of the logical fallacy of "begging the question."
This is actually more accurate of the dissent, which takes for granted that the decision not to use someone's preferred pronouns is intended to express an entire gender ideology.
Eugene is just tossing some trans-panic red meat into the water, to rile up the rubes. He must be bored.
It's Eugene's fault that the Sixth Circuit is reconsidering the opinion? Or are you saying this is not newsworthy and doesn't belong in this blog? I really don't understand how you think Eugene is the problem here.
If only pesky commentators didn't draw attention to all the sick crap we're doing! We'd totally get away with it!
(I can see why Simon is upset...)
Eugene exercises discretion over what First Amendment-related cases he posts about here. He doesn't post on everything that happens that is "newsworthy." He is, meanwhile, very interested in how the First Amendment intersects with the treatment of transgendered children and adults.
He posted about the decision to rehear the case, and made sure to include the dissenting opinion excerpt, to rile up the rubes.
Get your own blog and post what you want.
Or are you saying this is not newsworthy and doesn’t belong in this blog?
It’s only newsworthy to the rubes who he’s trying to rile up.
Obviously, it was effective.
Batchelder's argument is easily rebutted by simply observing how the policy would apply to students choosing to use the wrong pronouns and names of students who insist on misgendering their classmates.
If Bob in Algebra refuses to refer to Ali as "they," and Ali and their friends respond by calling Bob "she" and "Bertha," what results, under the policy?
This is not about ideology or belief. This is about harassment. It is perfectly ordinary for us to use the preferred names of the people we spend time with, day in and day out. If any of these students asked to go by nicknames or middle names, there would be no defensible objection to requiring other students to call them by those names. If some student were to refuse to do so, their intention and purpose of harassment would be obvious. The situation is not different when we are referring to trans kids. The only difference is in the judges and advocates who want to create statutory and constitutional protections for that kind of harassment.
I read Batchelder's argument to be that the schools' pronoun policy wouldn't exist at all but for transgender activism. Do you know of a school that had an official policy about pronouns prior to their recent malleability?
I think you and I would disagree on who exactly is being harassed by policies like this, which I also took to be one of Batchelder's higher-order points. Your Bob/Ali example illustrates quite aptly that in both cases Bob is the one grounded in objective reality.
William saying "call me Will" or some other drop-dead common and expected nickname for someone of that name isn't asking someone to turn off their brain and play along with someone else's make-believe. William saying "call me Wanda -- oh, and say her/she while you're at it" absolutely is.
"Do you know of a school that had an official policy about pronouns prior to their recent malleability?"
No.
Telling students to stop intentionally misgendering other students used to be understood to be plain old bullying behavior, and didn't need to be called out.
You seem to be rather out of touch with reality.
It used to be understood that people with dicks were boys or men and got called "he", and people with vaginas were girls or women and got called she.
People on the left formed an opinion that people should express themselves differently, and now leftists like yourself want to force people to express themselves your way under penalty of law.
"t used to be understood that people with dicks were boys or men and got called “he”, and people with vaginas were girls or women and got called she."
Well, no, not really.
I can trivially bring up examples of men and women that you would have no problem addressing and calling men and women... until you learn about what's in their pants, whereupon you'd swap. And that's been true for basically all of human history in societies where public nudity is uncommon. In fact, there are plenty of examples of men and women who did just that: they moved a town over where people didn't know them, and then lived as their preferred gender the rest of their lives.
The only reason you think you care now is because you've been told to 'cause face it, unless you're getting naked with someone, you have basically no legitimate interest in what's in their pants.
As far as "left" goes, again, no. Trans people have existed long before the modern left or right have, and if you look at the modern political parties they were both pretty uniformly anti-queer for a long time.
And as far as me wanting to force anyone to do anything, you clearly have me confused with someone else, or else you are grossly distorting my statements and views.
In conclusion: trans people predate modern politics, 99.99% of the time when you interact with a person, you're doing so on the basis of their gender presentation not their sex, and you are not accurately summarizing my views.
But the reason, Shirley, why people have had no difficulty in referring to a guy dressed up and presenting himself as a gal, is that they mistakenly believe that the guy is a gal. When they discover that he’s in fact a guy they flip to calling him a guy.
The mistake as you shrewdly noted is that such errors are more easily made when people have their clothes on.
That is not true. Gender dysphoria has existed for a long time — possibly forever. But the notion of "trans people" is a very recent one. That there were men who wanted to be women, wanted to live as and be treated as women (and vice versa) (and actually did so): sure. But the idea that those men really are women (and vice versa) is thoroughly (post)modern.
Telling students to stop intentionally misgendering other students used to be understood to be plain old bullying behavior, and didn’t need to be called out.
Uh, it NEVER EXISTED before the last few years. There is no "used to be understood".
Just because you never knew about it, since your overlords hadn't yet decided to rile you up about it in order to ensure your vote, doesn't mean it never existed.
Do you know of a school that had an official policy about pronouns prior to their recent malleability?
It wasn’t a problem before. Now we have kids whose parents are telling them to misgender their classmates or they’ll go to hell. That’s what’s new here.
What good is being Christian if there’s no one you can lord it over?
[This is a reply to Brian.]
"Do you know of a school that had an official policy about pronouns prior to their recent malleability?"
How recent is recent? The ACLU was suggesting such provisions in 2001, more than 20 years ago, and surely some schools beat them to it. And many schools had "name calling" as an enforceable policy. Indeed, at one point it was OK to shout racial epithets at students. So just how far back do we have to look before we decide that a group whose existence in our presence we are unhappy with are entitled to not be referred to in ways that are both hurtful and intended to be hurtful? I get that people disagree about what other people think they should be called, but in a school setting there is no defensible reason why the person who is not injured should be allowed to keep injuring.
"William saying “call me Will” or some other drop-dead common and expected nickname for someone of that name isn’t asking someone to turn off their brain and play along with someone else’s make-believe."
And this comment really drives the last point home. Who gets to decide what is common or expected nicknames? As between two students, why does the one who is not injured get to decide how common a name is? Why can't a student go through a school day being called by their uncommon and unexpected nicknames?
The Supreme Court already addressed this in a case - expecting people to conform to YOUR vision of how they should behave for their gender is a form a sex discrimination. Refusing to call them by preferred names or pronouns that do not conform to YOUR vision of what they should be called is merely an extension of that.
No cite, and nothing is surfacing from a bit of poking around. Are you saying the ACLU was suggesting pronoun rules having absolutely nothing to do with transgender people? Otherwise, that of course doesn't fit my inquiry.
The rest of your post is centered around the notion that individuals can invent their own bespoke modes of injury, which seems like it's really just generalizing the specific issue in this case and doesn't speak to the main point I was making: that the person being demanded to ignore objective reality is the one being harmed, not the person inventing the alternate reality.
the schools’ pronoun policy wouldn’t exist at all but for transgender activism.
So what? Why does that matter? lots of odious policies and practices persist until someone raises hell.
How about calling Christians “God’s chosen”, if such Christians in a school district demand it? If there is a loud “raising of hell” in some conservative district where schools form such a policy, it’s quite apparent you’d be bitching about that. I mean here you're practically admitting that the only correct view is in favor of transgenderism without question.
There are kids called Christian and Grace and (ugh) Nevaeh and such. I've never heard of anyone "bitching" about that.
You guys are all such snowflakes! It's embarrassing. You should be embarrassed.
"I read Batchelder’s argument to be that the schools’ pronoun policy wouldn’t exist at all but for transgender activism."
Sure, but the law is supposed to exist against the backdrop of reality, not the reality the judge would prefer. Anti-transgender and transgender activism have led to this form of harassment becoming a thing, and it is now a thing. Schools are allowed to craft policy based on reality.
A judge shouldn't say, "In a polite society, all threats would be mere jocularity, therefore true threats aren't a thing, case dismissed." Similarly, a judge shouldn't say, "In an ideal society, there would be no concept of misgendering, therefore harassment by misgendering isn't a thing."
In order to believe that, you have to assume, and make the rest of us assume, that transgenderism is not only reality, but opposing it is the wrong view.
People with working brains are NOT going to make that assumption; in fact, it's the OPPOSITE of reality.
In order to believe that, you have to assume, and make the rest of us assume, that transgenderism is not only reality, but opposing it is the wrong view.
No. You only have to believe that there are people who — for whatever reason, it really doesn’t matter — want to be referred to has “he” or “they.” Maybe you suspect that it’s for ungodly reasons, but so what? Intentionally calling them something to annoy them is simple harassment. It’s not some sort of political statement. It’s just being mean.
That said, I’m still against banning it. Kids are mean to each other, oh no. The more attention we draw to it, the more effective it becomes. This is the sort of thing that takes care of itself. Hopefully the kids doing the misgendering end up with no friends and their asses occasionally kicked.
You think a school would punish a student who insisted on calling Robert, "Robert," even though he prefers to go by "Bobby"? (Also, note that categorizing the use of disfavored pronouns as "harassment" is seriously flawed, in that harassment traditionally requires conduct/speech directed at a person, while what's at issue are third party pronouns — used when talking about a person, not to a person. If I were talking to my friend and said, "Did you see what Robert did yesterday?" it would never be classified as harassment no matter how much Robert hated that name and only wanted to be called Bobby.)
I've never been to a school that required you to use someone's preferred name. There's a reason kids who use nicknames hated when a new teacher would call roll and use their legal name, and then they get teased and everyone calls them that instead of the nickname they prefer. Unless you're calling someone an obscene word, then I don't really see it as anybody's business. Of course, I'm equally free to consider someone using the wrong name to refer to someone as a jerk or worse.
Sorry, but these PDE people are complete assholes. They concede that misgendering can extremely harmful to a trans student.
The PDE parent-members themselves "understand[]" that use of non-preferred pronouns "will be considered 'insulting,' 'humiliating,' 'dehumanizing,' 'derogatory,' and 'unwanted' to those who want to go by different pronouns."
PDE also attached to its preliminary injunction motion an article containing a therapist's explanation that students who "have been misgendered all day" often become "traumatized," "humiliated," and "cry after school." This evidence dovetails with a study, cited by the district court, collecting literature on the "measurable psychological and physiological harms" that can be caused by use of non-preferred pronouns.
Yet they still insist on being allowed to do it. So now bullying and harassment are perfectly OK, so long as it is based on the bully's "scientific" or religious beliefs. And if you think his is anything but bullying you didn't go to high school.
Judge Batcheldor, BTW, is truly a piece of work.
Therefore, the governmental authority (the District) has taken a clear position (viewpoint) in which all of its captive subjects (students) must affirm the existence of gender transition (either through words or silence), regardless of their own view.
She thinks students are "captives." And no, calling someone by their preferred pronoun does not "affirm the existence of gender transition," any more than calling someone by a nickname affirms that that is their correct, legal name.
"Sorry, but these PDE people are complete assholes. They concede that misgendering can extremely harmful to a trans student."
They don't concede any such thing. There's no "considered insulting" exception to the first amendment.
Did you even bother to read the parts of the OP I quoted, or are you so wrapped up in your own bigotry that you couldn't find the time?
There's also no "cry after school" exception to the first amendment. Do you think if Nazi kids become traumatized and cry if they are told that white people aren't then master race, then schools can ban other kids from saying that white people aren't the master race?
They can't ban speech that results in crying after school. But, they can ban speech that might cause susbtantial disruption. That is, the heckler's veto is permissible in K-12.
Way to ignore the issues.
I don't know if Tinker allows compelled speech, even if the lack of speech can cause a disturbance.
Can schools require a student to say the pledge of allegiance if their failure to do so will cause a disturbance?
I'm finding it very hard to imagine how a failure to require the pledge causes a substantial disruption. The Tinker Court seems to agree with me. They affirmed West Virginia v. Barnette (the pledge case) and then distinguished the analysis in Tinker:
Do you really think "they" is compelled speech? That's really quite a reach just to enable these asshole kids.
I think "please" and "thank you" would be closer to compelled speech than "they." Where's the outrage, tiny pianist? The government is forcing kids to be respectful and polite in violation of their free speech rights! It's an outrageous form of indoctrination, am I right?
If the government required people generally to use “they,” it would be compelled speech and in almost all contexts unconstitutional. K-12 is different and this is not an easy case.
I think it would be unconstitutional, but not as compelled speech.
Under what provision would you conclude it is unconsitutional?
Provision? I'll assume you meant that figuratively and say "prior restraint" based on my best interpretation of your hypothetical.
How does prior restraint apply at all? This isn't a case of censorship. It's a case of requiring someone to speak something they don't want to.
I assume the rule you're proposing is something along the lines of "wherever you would use 'he' or 'she,' use 'they' instead" and not, for example, "you have to say the word 'they' at least once an hour."
The latter could -- sort of -- be considered compelled speech, but it's kind of too ridiculous to really analyze.
The former is better thought of as a prohibition on "he" and "she" than as compelling "they." You don't have to use "they" at all, as long as you're not using "he" or "she."
Case 1: must use "they" It's compelled speech, but might be permissible in K-12.
Case 2: cannot use "she" or "he" Prior restraint, but might be permissible in K-12.
Same point: K-12 is different.
Huh? I can't believe you're doubling down on the stupid.
Why don't you just propose a rule? "Must use they" isn't a rule by itself. Maybe you mean something like my "you have to say 'they' at least once an hour" rule. Or, is "they" the only word anyone's allowed to say in this hypothetical? They they they they? Please start making sense.
FFS. Fine. You must use a pronoun once a day and it must be “they.”
Why do you insist on argung the trivial over the big picture. K-12 is different.
You're the one who butted in to me and tiny pianist talking about compelled speech. And yes, you guys are absolutely correct that when the government starts requiring people to say the word "they" at least once a day, that'll be compelled speech. Really great insight by the way, totally within the realm of sanity.
“Sorry, but these PDE people are complete assholes. They concede that misgendering can extremely harmful to a trans student.”
They don’t concede any such thing. There’s no “considered insulting” exception to the first amendment.
Non-sequitur much, tiny pianist? You can be an asshole, knowingly causing extreme harm to someone, and still be covered by the First Amendment. You should know!
"She thinks students are 'captives.'”
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the current Dem Presidential candidate push for legislation allowing parents to be jailed if their kids did not attend school often enough?
My state's law says:
"A juvenile who is absent from school without an acceptable excuse under s. 118.15 may be taken into custody by an individual designated under s. 118.16 (2m) (a) if the school attendance officer of the school district in which the juvenile resides... requests that the juvenile be taken into custody."
They're captive.
I am somewhat sceptical as to the validity of the excerpts that the majority opinion takes from the PDE parents brief. I suspect that what the PDE parents “understand” is that other people claim that misgendering has these dire results. Happy to be contradicted by a link to their full spiel.
They concede that misgendering can extremely harmful to a trans student.
It is. There really isn't any doubt about that at this point. You're utterly delusional if you're arguing anything else.
I don't see the words "extremely harmful" in that quote you provide.
Serious question from a childless oldster (me) to educators, people with kids in school, etc. --
How are the basics of grammar taught these days, where a singular person may be referenced by a singular pronoun (he, she), or a plural pronoun (they), or even some ambiguous (dare I say invented) pronoun?
My wife and I homeschool our kids, thank God!
Some use grids, tuphat = teach pronouns. Similar to what you see in corporate DEI presentations.
For people who wonder why so many people are voting for Trump, despite his obvious flaws, Kamala will appoint more of the manifestly irrational judges who created this majority opinion.
They're not flaws -- they are features....
That makes sense if you're an asshole trying to pretend he isn't a piece of shit for voting for Trump in the first place.
Why is that the only legitimate explanation? Because Congress appoints Judges.
Own your bigotry, TIP. You're so worked up about who is a man and who is not, and yet you don't meet the standard yourself.
"Because Congress appoints Judges."
See, as I've been saying, you're not just as asshole, but an ignorant asshole.
I don't think anyone is under any misimpression that Trump supporters generally want more bigotry from the bench, including in particular special protections for religiously-motivated discrimination against LGBT people.
The school asserts that students must use preferred pronouns so that transgender students are not "traumatized," etc. But the reason why doing so would avoid trauma is because use of preferred pronouns affirms the students new gender. This is exactly what the transgender students are seeking. As such, this is compelled speech that requires students to affirm an ideology with which they disagree.
The school's argument is they aren't motivated by affirming the students' gender identity, but rather by insuring there isn't substantial disruption in the form of trans students not being able to perform.
But then why no concern about the performance of those whose speech is compelled? The school district wants to say they are neutral on the question of transgender students, but they clearly are not.
Is there evidence that those compelled to speak against their will will see degraded performance? Is that evidence stronger than that in support of the policy to avoid degraded performance of trans students.
The school can win if it plauisbly argues it is agnostic on the ideological divide and is merely following the evidence.
We need to start executing psychologists and social workers.
Maybe burning them at the stake on Friday nights.
It's the only thing that will stop this crap.
You are a disgusting human being. Really awful.
I'm pretty sure this is the kind of reaction he's seeking with this crap.
No, it's the psychologists and social workers who are awful people.
The awful people are the ones who want to burn other people at the stake. Or run them down with snowplows, or shoot them, or nuke them, or hang them from streetlamps.
But it's justified....
None of those things are justified against anyone the vile Dr. Ed 2 has fantasized killing.
Fuck you, Ed. Not only are you a fool and an ignoramus, you are a vicious murderous asshole.
Did you really work at UMass? Did some of my taxes go to pay your salary? That's revolting.
Fuck you too -- there is a revolution coming and if you are too blind to see it, so be it...
Other societies in the past have had this sick shit imposed on them and they eventually rebelled, as ours eventually will as well. The only thing that scares me is that they have gone *so* far to the right in response that Trump would look like a left winger by comparison.
The most pathetic part is that the "sick shit" is also all in Dr. Ed 2's head. He's fantasizing about a bunch of garbage that's not actually happening in order to emotionally contextualize his fantasies about killing a bunch of people. Now that's some sick shit.
This case is a perfect example. There are almost no trans people, and even fewer trans kids. There are no trans people in this case, and no one has been asked to say any pronouns they didn't want to say, let alone get punished for not complying. It's all just empty political posturing, with Dr. Ed 2's psyche as the principal victim.
Randal, see: https://www.smith.edu/your-campus/offices-services/equity-inclusion/gender-identity-expression#is-smith-still-a-women%E2%80%99s-college?-0
There is considerable evidence a small segment of the mental health profession are embracing the transgender fad in their advocacy. You can condemn dr ed for the manner in which he criticized the mental health profession. You cant absolve the advocates of mental health profession of the current advocacy.
Dr Ed: I don’t get it. What does Smith have to do with you? Just fishing around to find things to upset yourself with? Here’s a clue: no, there’s not going to be a civil war over Smith’s admissions policies.
Joe: I don’t know what any of that means. To the extent there’s a fad, it’s being driven by all the attention Republicans are giving to the issue. I’m sure that’s driving a lot of pro-trans advocacy as a way to counter the Republican’s anti-trans rhetoric and policies.
Want trans issues to fade back into the background where they belong? Stop fucking bringing it up!
Randal - for the vast majority, its a false diagnosis that is the current fad driven by advocates. The mental health profession has a long history of fad diagnosises that are considered the gold standard of their time.
Somewhat similar to the repressed memory syndrome that was all the rage and considered the gold standard diagnosis during late 70's through the 80's.
I already told you what you need to do, Joe, to make the fad go away.
But what has that got to do with cases like this one? Maybe you're right that it's been recently overdiagnosed, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, which is the claim of these plaintiffs.
Were the Nuremburg Trials justified? Was it permissible to execute people for "crimes against humanity"?
I argue that is what is happening today, that the voodoo scientists are perpetrating crimes against humanity for which they should be executed. Remember too that it is not "murder" if a lawful government orders it.
Either trans identity is real, or people who consider themselves trans are mentally ill. In neither case would it be "justified."
Is there evidence that those compelled to speak against their will will see degraded performance?
Is there evidence that "trans" kids will have degraded performance if kids don't use their self-appointed pronouns? There is absolutely none whatsoever. So 2 judges on the panel explicitly took one side on this and ordered accordingly.
Is there evidence that “trans” kids will have degraded performance if kids don’t use their self-appointed pronouns?
Uh... there's tons of evidence presented in this very case that that's true. Also, it's sort of obviously true. That's the whole diagnosis of what it is to be transgender. If it wasn't a problem, it wouldn't be a problem.
Link to the underlying opinion? I'm curious if there's more on this:
"PDE also attached to its preliminary injunction motion an article containing a therapist's explanation that students who "have been misgendered all day" often become "traumatized," "humiliated," and "cry after school."
Because that seems a strange strategy for the plaintiffs.
Here is the full opinion. Footnote 3 explains the kerfuffle over what PDE concedes:
The minority’s argument is much better here, because it explains why the PDE parents included these statements in their briefs and put them in quotes.
That the District would arrive at these conclusions was a necessary condition for the PDE parents standing – ie only if the District formed these conclusions would the PDE parents children be in breach of the District’s policy.
Of course everyone agrees the District arrived at these conclusions. The question is whether it is only the District. It seems to me every thinking person would agree that at least some (if not most) trans students would think using a non-rferred pronoun is insulting, etc. On the other hand, I'm certain PDE does not believe it rises to the level of a substantial disruption.
No I don't think that's the question. The question is what did the PDE parents concede in their statements ? The fact that their statements :
‘insulting,’ ‘humiliating,’ ‘dehumanizing,’‘derogatory,’ and ‘unwanted’
precisely track the words in the District's policy shows clearly that they are conceding only that the District will draw these conclusions about the effect of not using preferred pronouns. The words are there for a specific legal purpose (and I have no doubt they were drafted by their lawyer.)
Whether the PDE parents also believe that some trans children might find the "wrong" pronouns offensive or hurtful is as may be. But the majority is quite wrong to assert that they have conceded as much. The majority have simply added their unconvincing take for emotional effect - precisely the emotional effect engendered in bernard above. bernard - who is not a fool - has been successfully played by the majority.
true, they didn’t concede it. But any rational person would if pressed.
No second person pronoun is my pronoun preference
So let me not hear of anyone speaking about me using any second person pronoun
This is my explanation for my work badge not showing my ‘preferred’ pronouns.
Second person? Like, "Hey, you?"
Isn't that the case that presents no problem?
Pronouns are no more "preferred" than any other parts of our language (names and nicknames excepted). Pronouns are determined by biology, not by preference. To require the use of a pronoun contrary to biology is to force speech. To require that one not use a biologically determined pronoun is also to force speech. There is no private language. I will call a boy named Sue, Sue. By HE is still a boy.
I don’t think this is quite right. Human language is partly determined by biology – ie there’s convincing evidence that humans have evolved brain circuits to process language whch have a pretty limited range of possibiities (ie all human languages are very similar) and what we say and hear is limited by our biological equipment for speaking and hearing.
But as for pronouns and what they refer to – that’s a matter of custom. Not all languages distinguish pronouns by sex. Some languages use pronouns dfferentiated by sex in the 1st or 2nd person as well as the 3rd.
So precisely what the argument is – about using 3rd person “preferred” pronouns in English – isn’t that easy to pin down. We are in the middle of a (proposed) change of custom.
Does a 3rd person pronoun refer to the speaker’s perception of the referant’s sex ? (The traditional usage)
Or does it refer to the speaker’s perception of the referant’s gender ? (stipulating that “gender” has a meaning associated with the mental state of the referant rather than with their sex.)
Or does it refer to the speaker’s perception of the referant’s preference as to how they should be referred to (ie independent of sex and / or gender) ?
My opinion, FWIW, is that the imposition of a requirement to use “preferred” pronouns is in reality an attempt to prevent the first usage – ie it reflects the desire to prevent the speaker making reference to the referant’s sex.
Thus for example suppose Alice wishes to be Bob and to be referred to as he, him etc, and the school requires Nasty Nick to use “Bob’s” preferred pronouns. If Nasty Nick complies thus “He’s over there. And “he” is not a boy, “he”‘s a girl” – the school would extend it’s policy to ban references to sex generally, and not limit it to pronouns.
In other words, it's not really about pronouns. It's about eliminating references to someone's sex.
Or, it could be to affirm the dignity of being trans (noting if that is what motivated the school, rather than avoiding substantial disruption, they aren't being viewpoint neutral).
For the first time ever, I think that Lee is largely correct, at least from the linguistic viewpoint.
I’ve been watching as “they” has evolved from
1. Plural only
2. Singular ok when the referent’s sex is ambiguous (replacing “he/she”)
3. Singular ok when the referent’s identity is unbound even if the sex is known (“as people arrive, if they’re pregnant, they should take the elevator”)
4. Singular ok when the referent’s identity is known but not relevant (“if Jane filed a complaint, they shouldn’t be retaliated against”)
5. Singular ok when the referent’s identity is known and relevant, but a relative stranger (“I don’t know about Jane’s new boyfriend Mike, they seem sort of sketch.”)
This evolution has happened in an extremely short amount of time, it feels like to me. 30, 35 years? I think the days of “he” and “she” in English are numbered, they’re fading fast.
No. Only the non-binary want to be referred to as "they." The vast majority are cis and want "he" and "she." I suspect most trans do too.
You’re not grokking what Lee and I are saying, really, at all.
Or do you think, if you were trans, you would have wanted me to write:
I suspect not. The point being, trans people want to be called "he" or "she" as appropriate, not by replacing every pronoun with "he" or "she." But the appropriate uses of "he" and "she" are dwindling fast (or at least changing, as Lee was pointing out). Soon it will become moot.
As an aside, I'm not sure that non-binary is really a thing, or at least to the extent it is a thing, I don't think it's the same thing. So I'm not even considering, here, people who want to be called neither "he" nor "she."
I think you aren't understanding Lee's argument.
Lee doesn't want to refer to trans men as "he" or trans women as "she." He thinks "he" and "she" should refer to sex, not gender identity. To me, that is an insult to the dignity of trans people.
He has said as much in other posts, so I get it. But he doesn't say that in this post.
In this post, his core argument is just that
We are in the middle of a (proposed) change of custom.
Which I think is true, hence my reply with evidence about how we absolutely are in a change of custom w.r.t. "they."
As per usual, nobody is getting the language outcome that they want. Language is slipperier than that and can't be so easily controlled. It's like a river, always taking the easiest path, which is always changing over time as language, attitudes, and culture all shift around each other.
It's like how conservatives at first thought they could undermine marriage equality by calling it "gay marriage" with its connotations to gay sex. But once the policy became popular, "gay" also lost its stigma, because "gay marriage" is good, right? Same with "Obamacare" -- that was originally a slur attempt by Republicans, but it came to represent one of Obama's legacy achievements.
His claim was the "change in custom" is being driven by the desire to "eliminat[e] references to someone’s sex." No. It's beng driven by the desire to treat trans people with dignity.
… by eliminating references to their sex. I thought that was rather obvious and uncontroversial. How else are you going to treat trans people with dignity?
You can still reference a person's sex, just not by what pronoun you use.
No… Lee’s absolutely right about that. There’s nothing special about pronouns. If Lee were a trans boy, you’re not treating him with dignity by saying “He’s over playing hopscotch with the other girls.”
But, you would be treating him with diginity if you said, "his sex is female."
In an appropriate context. Not pointing and laughing and shouting it all day long.
To the extent that language is laced with casual, unnecessary references to sex, those need to go. That is, I think, Lee’s point. Explicit, appropriate references to sex are pretty rare and not really a problem.
Pronouns are the clearest example of a casual, unnecessary reference to sex, but there are others.
Lee thinks references to sex should remain and getting rid of them feeds a delusion. I think context matters and when the dignity of trans people are not respected without a countervailing good reason, then the references should not be to sex. But, context and details matter.
Well, I think Lee thinks roughly as follows.
1. references to other people's sex are not going to disappear
2. whether the attempted change in the pronoun custom will proceed to the elimination of sexed 3rd pronouns in English, I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. I am inclined to think no, as ....
3....I think 90% of the trans thing is a teenage girl fad, and such things don't tend to last. Randal from his bubble thinks the current fad in that bubble will spread and stick, I from my bubble think it won't. I think it's on life support from coercion in schools and colleges. When teenage girls flip to a new fad, the life support wil fail
4. But I could be wrong 🙂
5. As to Josh's earlier comment that I WANT to refer to guys as he and gals as she, sure I do, up to a point. I think ready distinction between the sexes is natural and normal and was not imposed by the patriarchy. Eliminating sexed pronouns would make the language less clear. Mrs M is Chinese and though she's been speaking English for decades she quite often flips he and she, and it often results in me doing a double take and wondering who she's referring to.
6. But if sexed pronouns did disappear from general usage, I'd follow the herd. Language is a herd thing, though sometimes it takes a couple of hundred years for the whole herd to fall into line
7. But I'm not expecting the herd to get rid of sexed pronouns in my lifetime
8. And I'm not expecting references to sex to disappear. It's just too fundamental a thing to avoid mentioning.
It's neither. If you refer to a girl as "he" because the girl demands it, you haven't in any sense "eliminated" references to their sex, you've made a false reference.
Pronouns are meaningful to people, Brett, but they are utility words not chock full of meaning.
Any truth value is ancillary.
Your personal self image will not be damaged nor your perceived allegiance compelled if you call someone that is actually important to *their* self image.
This is what the pronoun talk comes down to - blowing up a minor thing into a huge deal so you can pretend being an asshole in this instance is actually taking a stand.
Naw - even most of those on the right know it's about being an asshole. You're very good at self deception though, so maybe not you.
Lee, sexed pronouns (e.g, he and she) are here to stay. The issue is whether they should refer to one’s sex or one’s gender identity. This isn’t about language per se. It’s about whether gender identity is real and the language will follow as appropriate.
Brett clearly expressed his viewpoint gender identity is not real. I think you agree with him. Randall and I agreed gender identity is real and thus in most contexts (but not all) these pronouns ought to refer to gender identity.
Sarcastro just can't seem to make it through a discussion without calling someone an asshole. That's a sure sign of being as asshole.
Brett clearly expressed his viewpoint gender identity is not real. I think you agree with him.
I don't know if I agree with him. As I mentioned lower down I am willing to entertain the notion that there is such a thing as gender identity even though I do not perceive it myself. Of course, as we have discussed before, if those who are sure that there is such a thing could specify it precisely and consistently, my task in evaluating whether it exists would be easier.
But for the purposes of these discussions I am forced to come up with my own stipulated specification - a mental sense of one's own sex, that can be different from ones actual sex, and which is a universal human mental module (ie I distinguish it from "Napoleon-ness" - ie a rare delusion.) 99.9% of us do not perceive it because it is indistinguishable from the deduction we can make from inspection of our own physiology. But for those whose gender module runs at odds with their physiology, it is directly perceptible. (Note this is my supposition as to what a coherent account of gender might look like. I don't concede it as a fact, nor dismiss it.)
Randall and I agreed gender identity is real and thus in most contexts (but not all) these pronouns ought to refer to gender identity.
Why "thus" ? Even if it were indeed real, why would it be the thing we want to refer to when using our third party English pronouns ?
Suppose we had an innate sense of our tallness, relative to other humans of our age and sex, which could sometimes be at odds with our actual tallness. When using the adjective "tall" of a third party that I am talking to someone else about, why would I want to refer to the third party's feeling about his tallness rather than (my estimation of) his actual tallness ?
To respect the dignity of trans people (as well as being what the doctor ordered in many cases).
Your tallness analogy fails because perceiving you are tall is a delusion if you are short. Gender identity is not a delusion. Again as we have discussed before, cerebrotype is as real and legitimate as genotype and phenotype. You are just not buying it.
You’re fighting the hypo. I specified :
“an innate sense of our tallness, relative to other humans of our age and sex, which could sometimes be at odds with our actual tallness.” This is precisely analogous to :
“an innate sense of our own sex, which could sometimes be at odds with our actual sex” aka gender
The gender identity is a mistake, where it differs from actual sex. If you have a sense that your sex is female, when your sex is in fact male, your brain is in error. The tallness identity is a mistake, where it differs from actual tallness. But in both cases – stipulated – it’s a genuine mental state.
So the point is – if there were such an innate sense of tallness, just as you suppose there is an innate sense of sex, which in each case can sometimes differ from the reality of your tallness or sex – why would other people be interested in referring to it ?
I take – but do not buy – your medical point, but in terms of other people’s actual interest in you, as opposed to their efforts to support your health, what is there about your mental image of your tallness, or your sex, that is of the slightest interest to third parties ? If you are actually tall, you might be of some use on a basketball team, or for helping short people put their carry on bags in the overhead lockers. If you are actually male, you might be of some use (to an actual female) for babymaking.
Your self image as tall or male means the square root of squat to everyone but you. Why - leaving aside your health - should I care ? A fortiori why should I care enough to remark upon your self image to someone else I'm talking to ?
There are two separate questions. It’s really hard to make progress without teasing them apart.
One question is whether someone can have a mental sense of gender that doesn’t align with sex. Let’s ignore that. Let’s even assume they can’t.
The second question is whether people people choose which pronoun to use based on what sex they think the referent is or what gender they think the referent is.
Lee thinks he’s basing it on sex. It’s an easy mistake to make, because sex and gender are always the same to him. How would he even know which one he was using to select pronouns?
People always choose pronouns based on gender, not sex. I talked about this a bit elsewhere, but some more examples:
1. SpongeBob doesn’t have a penis but has masculine gender so is a “he”
2. God doesn’t have a penis but (typically) has masculine gender so is a “he”
3. The personification of nature doesn’t have a vaj but is still a “she”
4. The boogey-man is a “he” obviously
5. Fictional characters are rarely introduced by a description of their genitalia, but we’re comfortable calling them “he” and “she” based on their names and other clues
6. People in dreams and imaginations only sometimes feature genitalia, but they’re always “he” and “she”
7. When talking about third parties, “he” and “she” are used without needing to describe the sexual characteristics of the referents
Etc. etc. This is the whole reason we have the concept of gender, it’s not just because of trans people. Gender is more general and universal than sex. It’s the stronger concept. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus and all that. The masculine and the feminine. That's what pronouns are always based on (in English).
The brain knows that your sex is female. But nonetheless, it says you feel like a woman. That is, your gender identity is female.
So, the tallness analogy becomes the brain knows you are short but it says you feel tall. That is, your height identity is tall. And that would work if 300,000 Americans felt that way, suffered stress because of it that is most effectively treated by height-affirming care.
But the analogy fails because those 300,000 people don't exist. As I have said many times before, the empirical evidence for cerebrotype and gender identity being real is the experiences of trans people.
You should not insult the dignity of trans people, although your private interactions with third parties are not insulting if they remain private.
Oh I forgot probably the most telling example:
8. Kids understand boys and girls, "he" and "she" well before they understand genetics and genetalia.
Lee, do you mean to tell me that when you were four, you were thinking about everybody's junk all the time?
Josh : The brain knows that your sex is female. But nonetheless, it says you feel like a woman. That is, your gender identity is female.
I’m assuming that the “female’ in the first sentence is a typo and s/b “male.” If not I don’t follow.
As I have said many times before, the empirical evidence for cerebrotype and gender identity being real is the experiences of trans people.
Stipulating that to be true, we need to revisit your earlier comment :
Your tallness analogy fails because perceiving you are tall is a delusion if you are short. Gender identity is not a delusion.
I avoid calling gender identity a delusion by stipulating that it is a universal human mental module, that occasionally gives an incorrect reading by reference to actual sex. As opposed to a rare mental blip like Napoleon-ness, which we can call a delusion. Secondary sexual characteristics are known sometimes to deviate from the primary because of eccentric developmental processes, so in principle there’s nothing earth shattering about an evolved gender identity module occasionally deviating from the primary sex character.
Are you making the same distinction ? If not I don’t see how you conclude that gender identity isn’t a delusion. If it gives a reading of male, when you are in fact female; how is that different from giving a reading of tall when you are short, or Napoleon when you are Emilio Gomez ?
Kids understand boys and girls, “he” and “she” well before they understand genetics and genetalia.
Kids tend to believe what they are told by the parents, siblings, peers etc. So initially they are taking the distinction between girls and boys on trust from older folk. The older folk are aware of the real source of the difference and in time the kids learn that too.
Though even young kids soon learn to spot relevant indicia. They discover quite early that girls and boys pee differently. And curiosity about junk does not begin at age 14.
Beetles never get as far as understanding genetics and genetalia. But they still manage to work out the essential difference between girl beeles and boy beetles. Because beetles that didn't crack that difference didn't tend to have descendants.
And the word for that is "gender."
But his sex isn't female. The trans thing is so weird; just a few short years ago, the party line was "Sex and gender are different things." But now people want to treat gender as real and sex as not a thing at all.
The hypo is a trans man. His sex is female and his gender identity is male.
But now people want to treat... sex as not a thing at all.
Which people? Just ignore those people. Everyone's so worried about the fringe crazies these days. There've always been fringe crazies, why are we "centering" them (am I using term that right)?
Yea, a typo.
I just explained that when 300,000 people get the reading (and gender-affirming care works) it isn’t false (gender identity is real and can differ from one’s sex). When 30 do, it is. I think that is the distinction you referred to (occasional = 300,000, rare = 30).
Fair enough.
Though 300,000 out of 300 million is not exactly common, it's about ten times as common as, say, Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome .
With that out of the way, let’s move on to this:
Does a 3rd person pronoun refer to the speaker’s perception of the referant’s sex ? (The traditional usage)
Or does it refer to the speaker’s perception of the referant’s gender ?
You’re asserting that the traditional usage in English is determined by sex and not gender. But in 99.9% of cases, they’re the same. I would further argue that the reason people like steveo are pushing back on preferred pronouns isn’t because they’re choosing to use the referent’s sex rather than gender, but because they continue to perceive the referent’s gender as the one matching their sex, not their preferred one.
You see this all the time when a transgender person first transitions. People who knew them before can find it difficult to internalize the new gender and use the new pronouns, even if they want to. But people who meet the person post-transition, especially if they don’t know right away, will find the new pronouns much more natural, because they already think of the person as being their transitioned gender. I think such a person would find it challenging to switch to the sex-based pronouns, even after finding out.
Anyway, to summarize…
Of your three options (perception of sex, perception of gender, or perception of gender preference), I think perception of gender is actually the traditional English usage. When you and others say that you’re using pronouns that align with sex, I think you’re actually just continuing to perceive gender as aligning with sex and using those pronouns. I don’t think you perceive gender as differing from sex.
It would be very odd -- and I've never heard -- for someone to say that they fully perceive a trans woman as a woman but still use "he" for the person.
You’re asserting that the traditional usage in English is determined by sex and not gender. But in 99.9% of cases, they’re the same.
And consequently 99.9% of people have no sense that there is any “gender” thing, separate from sex. We never even suspected it until a few years ago, and even now we have to rely on “experts” asserting its existence.
Consequently 99.9% of the population could not have been referring to gender - other than as a synonym for sex - when using 3rd person singular pronouns – they never had any idea there was such a thing !
When you and others say that you’re using pronouns that align with sex, I think you’re actually just continuing to perceive gender as aligning with sex and using those pronouns. I don’t think you perceive gender as differing from sex.
I don’t perceive gender as differing from sex. But as a semi- educated, low grade intellectual, I hear folk averring its existence, so I pay attention. In the same way as I pay attention to folk averring the existence of quarks. I have never seen a quark, and don’t expect to, but I am willing to entertain the possibiity of their existence.
So I hear folk postulate a sense of gender independent of sex, and I am willing to entertain it. Though I would be more willing if the thing could retain the same meaning for a whole sentence. But that I am willing to entertain it does not mean that I refer to it when using pronouns. As I mentioned elsewhere, the sex of other humans is of intense importance, and hence intense interest, and consequently it is a natural thing to want to refer to. Gender not so much.
It would be very odd — and I’ve never heard — for someone to say that they fully perceive a trans woman as a woman but still use “he” for the person.
A poor illustration, because for we 99.9%ers, “woman” is a reference to sex not gender. Hence referring to the “trans woman” as a “woman” and “he” would be a contradiction.
But those of us 99.9%ers willing to entertain the notion of “gender” apart from sex might say :
“I fully perceive that person is a “trans woman” , ie a man who says he has an inner sense that he is a woman, and maybe he really does, but since I, as a 99.9%er, use “he” to refer to sex, that’s what I’m going to use.”
We never even suspected it until a few years ago, and even now we have to rely on “experts” asserting its existence.
You never suspected it until your political masters told you to get upset about it. Transgender people have been around forever.
“I fully perceive that person is a “trans woman” , ie a man who says he has an inner sense that he is a woman, and maybe he really does, but since I, as a 99.9%er, use “he” to refer to sex, that’s what I’m going to use.”
But much more likely, is this:
“I fully perceive that person is a ‘trans woman’, i.e. a man who says he has an inner sense that he is a woman, and maybe he really does, but since I perceive him as a man, I’m going to continue to use ‘he’ to refer to him.”
In other words, you’re not being precise. You’re slipping into your third category of “perception of gender preference.” I agree you and your hypothetical person are resistant to using the pronouns that align with “perception of gender preference.” Instead, you’re using the ones that align with “perception of gender.”
I don’t have political masters. I have my own opinions 🙂
I developed an interest in this area when I discovered that there were folk out there claiming that men could have babies. Which struck me as incorrect.
“I fully perceive that person is a ‘trans woman’, i.e. a man who says he has an inner sense that he is a woman, and maybe he really does, but since I perceive him as a man, I’m going to continue to use masculine gendered ‘he’ to refer to him.”
Nah, I perceive him as a man, because I suspect him of having testicles. Nothing to do with how he feels or how he presents himself. When he was wearing a suit and a beard and calling himself Stan, I suspected him of having testicles. Now he’s shaved off his beard, wears skirts and calls himself Tiffany, I still suspect him of having testicles. So I’m going to refer to him as a he, because he actually is a he – a man. That is to say a human with testicles.
If I am mistaken, and it is shown to my satisfaction that “he” has no testes but instead has ovaries, and is therefore a woman, I will confess my error and call him her. Because she is a her. And if “he” goes back to Stan and suits and beards, now that I know she has ovaries, I’m going to refer to her as her. Quite regardless of her presentation or inner mental sense.
Sure, and that’s because you’ve aligned your perception of gender with your perception of sex. But it’s the perception of gender that controls. You often don’t know that the person has testicles. You assume they do because you perceive the person as a man, i.e. masculine gendered. The gender comes first.
If you find out they have ovaries, you don’t think of them as masculine gendered anymore. You think of them as a woman. And you use the appropriately-gendered pronouns.
You're the one who came up with the three categories: perception of sex, perception of gender, and perception of gender preference. And it's very astute. But everyone -- everyone -- uses perception of gender as their natural choice of pronouns. Anyone who says they use perception of sex is lying, and anyone who says they use perception of gender preference is trying really hard to say unnatural pronouns.
You often don’t know that the person has testicles.
Correct. I have to estimate.
You assume they do because you perceive the person as a man, i.e. masculine gendered. The gender comes first.
What meaning are you putting on "gender" here ? Presumably outward display rather than inner feeling ?
Obviously the outward display - eg beards, suits etc - plays a part in the estimate of sex. But only a part. If you present yourself in a male typical way, and the obvious physical signs - eg body shape, voice pitch etc are consistent with that, then I'm going to assume, at least provisionally, that you're of male sex. But if my buddy, who I trust, tells me "Actually Randal is a girl and she gave birth to twins last year - but you've got to agree that she can dress herslef up as a guy pretty convincingly" that's going to trump your presentation.
So if you're saying no more than that we often form our estimates of sex from incomplete evidence, including outward presentation, sure. But that's no different from when, as a kid, you guess what you're getting for Christmas by palping the parcel. The feel of the parcel is merely a way to guess at what you're really interested in - the actual contents.
If you find out they have ovaries, you don’t think of them as masculine gendered anymore.
This makes no sense. I reject my earlier incorrect estimate of sex, which was partly based on the beard and the suit, because I now have better evidence of sex. Ovaries.
What meaning are you putting on “gender” here ?
These are your terms, and I’m using them the way you’ve been using them.
Perception of sex: Whether you think the person is male or female, biologically (“has testicles”)
Perception of gender: Whether you think of the person as a man or a woman
Perception of gender preference: Whether you think the other person thinks of themselves as a man or a woman (“i.e. a man who says he has an inner sense that he is a woman”)
It doesn’t matter why you think of the person as a man or a woman. Whatever your reasons are, that’s your perception of their gender.
You’ve been going to great lengths to insist that you don’t distinguish between sex and gender.
I perceive him as a man, because I suspect him of having testicles.
I don’t perceive gender as differing from sex.
99.9% of people have no sense that there is any “gender” thing, separate from sex.
Which, I absolutely believe. For most people, there’s never been any reason to distinguish between sex and gender.
But then why are you so adamant that you’re choosing pronouns based on sex and not gender, when there’s no difference between the two in your mind? And in fact, there’s more reason to think you’re picking based on gender than based on sex, because you know more about gender than you know about sex. You know whether or not you think the person is a man. You often don’t know — for sure — that the person has testicles. You might have a working assumption… based on their gender.
But I know why you’re insisting that your choice is based on sex. It’s a cop out. It gets you out of confronting that 0.01%. You can just say to yourself, it doesn’t matter, my language is based on sex, so what I think of their gender is inconsequential.
But that is, of course, an attempt to skirt the whole debate. Those of us who have known trans people and internalized this issue know that it’s possible to perceive gender differently from sex. You can, really and truly, perceive a person to be a woman who has — or had — testicles. Not just perceive that they think they’re a woman, but to actually perceive them as a woman yourself.
And of course, the reason you don’t want to face that little conundrum is that it forces you to either acknowledge your closed mindedness or accept the possibility that someone with testicles could be a woman.
It’s fine to be closed-minded. That’s the case you’ve been making. But it’s unbecoming and cowardly of you to try to have it both ways by saying things like
So I hear folk postulate a sense of gender independent of sex, and I am willing to entertain it…. But that I am willing to entertain it does not mean that I refer to it when using pronouns.
All that means is that while you’re willing to entertain that transgender people aren’t lying — wow, how very generous of you — you’re not willing to entertain a distinction between sex and gender yourself.
me : What meaning are you putting on “gender” here ?
Randal : These are your terms, and I’m using them the way you’ve been using them.
Er, OK. This is how I defined my terms :
stipulating that “gender” has a meaning associated with the mental state of the referant rather than with their sex.
And you’re saying that normal English usage is for me to use “him” rather than “her” to refer to a third party because …. that third party has an internal mental state of feeling male ?
How would I access that mental state ? People don’t walk up to you in the street and say “Hi ! I’m a guy !” They generally leave that for you to work out for yourself. I appreciate that there’s now a fad for publishing “my pronouns” but that can hardly be the basis of the English usage of sexed pronouns over the past thousand years or so.
Moreover since I doubt the existence of gender identity separate from sex (though I do not exclude the possibility) how could I possibly be using it to assess the correct pronoun to use ? If I don’t know what it is, and I doubt its existence whatever it is, how could it be the criterion by which I select pronouns ?
On the whole I have far more evidence of the testicles of a (clothed) man than I do of his mental state. Because testicles typically produce secondary sexual characteristics that are visible (or audible) even when you’re dressed.
But then why are you so adamant that you’re choosing pronouns based on sex and not gender, when there’s no difference between the two in your mind?
Because when confronted with an example of someone who says they have female gender but is obviously a biological male, I refer to him as “him.” In the rare cases where there is, or is alleged to be, a difference between gender and sex, I use the sexed pronouns and words like man and woman to refer to sex.
Identification errors are hardy unknown with people (not just sex, but also “isn’t that Cathy’s son over there ?”) or with things. How we resolve those errors reveals what we were actually trying to identify.
Hm you’re doing a poor job of reading what I write. Forget the whole “mental state” thing. Your perception of someone else’s gender has nothing to do with their mental state. It’s only about your mental state.
Let’s try again. I’ve emboldened the key points.
Perception of sex: Whether you think the person is male or female, biologically (“has testicles”)
Perception of gender: Whether you think of the person as a man or a woman
Perception of gender preference: Whether you think the other person thinks of themselves as a man or a woman (“i.e. a man who says he has an inner sense that he is a woman”)
It doesn’t matter why you think of the person as a man or a woman. Whatever your reasons are, that’s your perception of their gender.
You’ve been going to great lengths to insist that you don’t distinguish between sex and gender.
I perceive him as a man, because I suspect him of having testicles.
I don’t perceive gender as differing from sex.
99.9% of people have no sense that there is any “gender” thing, separate from sex.
Which, I absolutely believe. For most people, there’s never been any reason to distinguish between sex and gender.
But then why are you so adamant that you’re choosing pronouns based on sex and not gender, when there’s no difference between the two in your mind? And in fact, there’s more reason to think you’re picking based on gender than based on sex, because you know more about gender than you know about sex. You know whether or not you think the person is a man. You often don’t know — for sure — that the person has testicles. You might have a working assumption… based on their gender.
But I know why you’re insisting that your choice is based on sex. It’s a cop out. It gets you out of confronting that 0.01%. You can just say to yourself, it doesn’t matter, my language is based on sex, so what I think of their gender is inconsequential.
But that is, of course, an attempt to skirt the whole debate. Those of us who have known trans people and internalized this issue know that it’s possible to perceive gender differently from sex. You can, really and truly, perceive a person to be a woman who has — or had — testicles. Not just perceive that they think they’re a woman, but to actually perceive them as a woman yourself.
And of course, the reason you don’t want to face that little conundrum is that it forces you to either acknowledge your closed mindedness or accept the possibility that someone with testicles could be a woman.
It’s fine to be closed-minded. That’s the case you’ve been making. But it’s unbecoming and cowardly of you to try to have it both ways by saying things like
So I hear folk postulate a sense of gender independent of sex, and I am willing to entertain it…. But that I am willing to entertain it does not mean that I refer to it when using pronouns.
All that means is that while you’re willing to entertain that transgender people aren’t lying — wow, how very generous of you — you’re not willing to entertain a distinction between sex and gender yourself.
Hm you’re doing a poor job of reading what I write.
I thought I interpreted :
Randal : These are your terms, and I’m using them the way you’ve been using them.
pretty well. The difficulty is that you didn’t mean what you said. If you go back to my three possibilities – see my reply to stevio – only one of them corresponds to the three that you now offer. My first – perception of sex – is the same in your version.
My second is not. I specified gender as a mental state of the referant. You now offer “Whether you think of the person as a man or a woman” which is obviously nothing to do with the referant’s mental state (and has other problems – see below).
The third was “the speaker’s perception of the referant’s preference as to how they should be referred to (ie independent of sex and / or gender)” whereas your third was “perception of gender preference: Whether you think the other person thinks of themselves as a man or a woman (“i.e. a man who says he has an inner sense that he is a woman”) – your third is similar to my second though not quite the same.
But let’s focus on your second :
“Whether you think of the person as a man or a woman”
To me this is exactly the same as the first question – ie what sex is the referant ? A question of gonads. That is because I, like the vast majority of English speakers not only use him and her to refer to sex, but also use man and woman to refer to sex. Therefore whether I think of the person as a man or a woman depends entirely on my estimate of what gonads he or she has.
But I’m guessing you mean something different, and that you are using “man” and “woman” in some as yet unspecified sense of gender, which will finish up as involving a circular reference. But feel free to surprise me with something coherent and non circular.
You’re framing the trans debate as being about the definition of the word “gender.” That’s not what it’s about. Gender is well-defined. I gave you eight (actually nine) ways in which gender is more expansive than sex, like God having a gender but not a sex.
The point is that when you say you’re choosing your pronouns based on sex, that’s not quite accurate. When you choose to call God “he” that’s obviously not based on sex etc. etc. The more accurate statement would be that you’re choosing your pronouns based on gender, and your understanding of gender is based on sex (where possible).
That is because I, like the vast majority of English speakers not only use him and her to refer to sex, but also use man and woman to refer to sex.
No, you use man and woman to refer to gender. See e.g. boogey-man. He doesn’t have chromosomes. Or Santa Claus. Or Huckleberry Finn. Man and woman always go along with he and she, and they always refer to gender.
That’s because, like you said,
To me this is exactly the same as the first question – ie what sex is the referant ? … Therefore whether I think of the person as a man or a woman depends entirely on my estimate of what gonads he or she has.
Which is true for referents with gonads, but extends — via the concept of gender — to referents without gonads.
That’s it. That’s what gender means. If you’re looking for a definition for “woman,” for example, “an adult human of the feminine gender” captures both Kamala Harris and Wonder Woman. It’s also a much better explanation of the evolution of kids’ understanding of the world than the one you gave. Kids get gender, and how to use gendered language, way before they link it to sex in the sense of chromosomes and gonads. Gender is the more basic concept.
Does that make sense to you?
The upshot is, when you’re saying that you use pronouns based on sex, what you’re really saying is that you find gender to be inextricably linked to sex. Whatever’s happening in someone else’s mind is unimportant here. I’m not trying to get into that. In your mind, gender and sex are tied.
Massachusetts no longer has fathers and mothers -- it's now "Parent A" and "Parent B."
That doesn't have anything to do with trans stuff. You're just bringing up random out-of-context grievances at this point. Way to go, Dr.Ead.
99.9% refers to the percentage of people whose sex matches their gender identity, not the percentage of people who accept that gender identity can be different than sex. But yes, a majority believe gender identity matches sex because they have had no contact with trans people.
Gay rights were won because gays came out. Ordinary folks then had contact with gay people and concluded this is a normal variation. Trans rights have a tougher lift because the prevelance of trans people is an order magnitude less. But coming out is still the key.
Well, trans people have an even tougher lift because it's not normal. It's painful and requires treatment. Very different from gays in that way.
Being trans is a normal variation. Gender dysphoria is an illness.
Being trans is not a normal variation like being blonde or left-handed is a normal variation. It's a condition, like having a cleft palate.
What medical authority came to that conclusion.
The AMA? Merck? Who hasn't come to that conclusion?
Citations, please.
I mean, you have Google, no? But ok.
https://www.endocrine.org/news-and-advocacy/news-room/2023/ama-gender-affirming-care
Nothing in there that says being trans is a condition. To the contrary, the AMA says
You are confusing being trans with conditions (e.g., gender dysphoria) which may develop associated with being trans.
That’s like saying that the gene for sickle cell is a normal variation, but the sickle cell itself is a disease. Maybe that’s a useful distinction for medical students, but like all normal people, when I say trans I include the gender dysphoria as part of the package.
My take;
1. The original opinion seems like a correct application of Timker. However you feel about the way our society handles transgenderism in minors, the potential for disruption through use of non-preferred pronouns is real enough to make the policy well within the school’s discretion.
2. The dissent’s “compelled speech” argument is not persuasive because mandating use of preferred pronouns not equate to mandating affirmation of a belief that a trans-identifying student actually *is* whatever the preferred pronoun refers to.
3. Justice Thomas was right. Students shouldn’t have first amendment rights. Tinker should be overturned and these lawsuits shouldn’t happen to begin with.
Which part of the First Amendment says that you must be an adult?
Children have first amendment rights, just not at school for the same reason they don’t have them at home. Schools are loco parentis. They should be able to regulate student speech as they see fit. You don’t like the speech policy at your kid’s school, either agitate to change the policy or pull your kid out. It’s all in Thomas’s concurrence in the Bong Hitz 4 Jesus case.
Edit: This was meant to rely to Jason’s comment above.
No.
The government mandates that children either attend public school, or receive some kind of home-school equivalent education. In many States (possibly all, but I am not going to look it up), this behavior is codified with criminal penalties.
It's a pretty obvious violation of the Constitution for the government to require your presence in a location where they then claim you no longer have Constitutional rights.
1. We’re not talking about whether high school students should have *any* rights. Just whether the first amendment limits school speech regulations. Current law says yes but I think Thomas is persuasive in arguing that historically school are in loco parentis as well as places where teachers are supposed to teach and students are supposed to learn which is inconsistent with students having a right of free speech.
2. I’m not sure I agree the government mandating children’s presence in a place means they must have first amendment rights in that place. In most situations where the government mandates you go somewhere, like a courthouse or a prison, your first amendment rights once you get there are pretty limited. But in any case, you concede that the government *doesn’t* mandate teens’ presence in government schools. There are other options, like home or private schooling.
Like everything else, this case reveals how stupid conservatives are.
There’s no factual disagreement here. Conservatives are somehow trying to appeal to “science,” but there’s no underlying scientific debate. There definitely are two sexes in biology. There definitely are transgender people.
The only scientific question is, what’s the best treatment? Conservatives, as is their wont, feel like they know better than the doctors. They want to control other people’s medical decisions, as per usual. That’s all this is.
Imagine the daughter of conservative parents intentionally, repeatedly exposing another child to peanuts, triggering allergic reactions, because the family didn’t “believe in” peanut allergies and felt that not being allowed to expose other people to peanuts was an unfair imposition on their own peanut-ingestion rights.
While that example doesn’t have the same free speech implications, it’s the exact thing conservatives are doing here from a moral perspective. It’s insanely mean-hearted, ignorant, presumptuous, and sociopathic. How can you be so evil as to encourage your child to antagonize another child’s medical condition? Do you tell your son to kick the crutches out from under the kid with the ankle sprain?
Good example. At what point do we say "your alleged religious beliefs don't matter. You can't use them as an excuse to harm others."
To take that to extremes, suppose some "overzealous" Christian students start terrorizing non-Christians in an effort to get them to convert. "It's for their own good, their salvation," they argue. Who buys that? Who is ready to say that the bullying is protected by the 1A?
But my bet is that it's even worse than that. My bet is that the religious claims here are a thin cover for simply wanting to harass the transgender students, and that the parents are, disgracefully, supporting that harassment.
Look. These are HS students. What's more likely, that they have deeply studied the Bible and its interpreters, and concluded that it supports their view, or that they don't like transsexuals and, maybe, have found some passages that just might support their opinions, so they feel OK about their nasty behavior. (Though I'd be curious to have someone point me to the place where Jesus says this sort of harassment is just fine.)
The only scientific question is, what’s the best treatment?
The question is not what's the "best" treatment, but what are the pros and cons of the various possible treatments. A "best" treatment delivered by a daily pill costing $25,000 is not necessarily better than doing nothing at a cost of nothing. Pros have to be weighed against cons.
Requiring the rest of humanity to mind its words, because the medics think the "best" treatment is to prevent the possibility that the afflicted person might hear that other folk think "he" is the sex he actually is, and which as Randal acknowledges, "he" knows too, involves quite a heavy cost to undertake on trust from the docs. Especially since on this as on so many questions, the docs are by no means agreed.
They want to control other people’s medical decisions, as per usual.
Except that in this case the medical decision is not about what Doc X does to Patient Y, with Patient Y's consent. The medical treatment proposed involves requiring Passer-by Z to participate in the treatment, or be accused of "controlling other people's medical decisions" if he declines to participate. For Z, of course, read everybody else.
quite a heavy cost ... requiring Passer-by Z to participate in the treatment
Yes, just like being forced not to bring peanut brittle to class. What a burden! What a heavy cost! Much better to actively resist helping out our countrymen in any way whatsoever because it's so unfair that they're unhealthy and I'm healthy and so I have to accommodate them!
Man, what a very sad state of affairs.
I do not claim to be an expert on peanuts, but a quick google suggests that to damage any of your classmates you'd have to force the peanut brittle down his throat, or else con him into eating something peanutty on the false promise that it was safe. (Which would require the afflicted child, aware of his vulnerability, to be pretty dumb.)
https://www.preventallergies.org/blog/peanuts-in-schools-perspective-on-allergies-and-safety
Which is not quite the same as requiring everyone in school not to say "snack." If you can be seriously damaged by hearing the word "snack" you should probably be going for homeschooling.
Notably, you didn't even think that maybe you should opt for a snack that the peanut-allergic child can partake of. Nope, it's all about you and being able to have your peanut brittle even if it means the peanut-allergic kid has to sit empty-handed.
I don't like peanuts and at my school snacks of any kind were strictly forbidden. So I feel a little as if I am being asked to opine on Russian Orthodox theology. Not really my subject.
So can you think of no scenario where you'd be willing to make some trivial sacrifice in order to accommodate someone in lesser health than yourself?
But why does it matter that you can't eat my snack? It's my snack. I should be able to sit and eat it without worrying if you would be okay with eating it too. Not everything is brought to share.
"Requiring the rest of humanity to mind its words..."
Good news: This school policy only applied to the students inside it, and directed them to not be harassing assholes.
The rest of humanity is safe.
There's more than one school. Also more than one college. Also more than one place of employment. You can also lose custody of your children for failing to mind your words on trans issues. In some places it can result in a visit from the police.
“There definitely are two sexes in biology.”
Hate speech.
Why do all these cases involve sociopathic Christians? I have to imagine that all these publicity-seeking sociopathic Christians annoy the shit out of the regular Christians.
Like, in practice, if there ever were a transgender kid and an anti-trans Christian kid in the same class, as long as the Christian kid wasn’t a sociopath, he’d have regular human empathy and be at least a little conflicted about misgendering his classmate all day long and causing obvious distress. That seems like a very different situation from what the school’s guidelines are covering, namely malicious harassment. Those two scenarios are very distinguishable. Why is this even a case?
Oh, because the Christians involved are sociopaths. They’re fighting for the right to maliciously harass trans people.
Whatever I call you is protected speech under Amendment Number One.
Case closed.
So if you and others want to refer to an overweight student as "Fatso," or "Porky," the school can't stop you?
Doesn't sound right to me.
I mean, that sounds like school to me. I was called insulting names, I was called neutral names that I nonetheless didn't like, I was given a nickname based on my name that I didn't want to use. It's why we used to teach "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." It's not because schools just told students to never insult each other and we all lived in happy bliss.
The dissent is simple, clear, and logical hence little chance of being adopted by a majority at this level.