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"We Have the Zyklon B. Use Code 'GASTHEJEWS' for 10% Off!" Postcard Sent to Rabbi …
may be constitutionally unprotected threat.
U.S. v. Ramos, decided Sept. 27, 2024 by Judge Marc Treadwell (M.D. Ga.), allowed the threats prosecution against the defendant to go forward:
"To obtain a conviction under 18 U.S.C. § 876(c), the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant (1) knowingly sent a message through the mail, (2) knew that the mailing contained a 'true threat,' and (3) intended (or at least knew) that the statement would be viewed as a threat."
"True threats" are not protected by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. True threats are "statements where the speaker means to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit an act of unlawful violence." A prohibition on true threats, such as § 876(c), "protects individuals from the fear of violence and from the disruption that fear engenders." Courts have consistently held that "whether a communication is a threat is an issue of fact to be left to the jury." However, "[i]f there is no question that a defendant's speech is protected by the First Amendment, the court may dismiss the charge as a matter of law." …
The indictment alleges that Ramos made the decision to mail a threatening, handwritten postcard to the home address of a Rabbi who had been speaking publicly against antisemitism following a neo-Nazi demonstration at her synagogue.
The indictment further alleges that Ramos mailed the postcard shortly after the Rabbi spoke before the Georgia Senate Judiciary Committee in support of a bill defining antisemitism. The postcard contained the handwritten statement, "Is there a child rape, torture, and murder tunnel under your house? We have the Zyklon B. Use code 'GASTHEJEWS' for 10% off!" Finally, the indictment alleges that Ramos "knowingly caused [the postcard] to be delivered by the Postal Service" and "sent the communication for the purpose of issuing a threat, and with the knowledge that the communication would be viewed as a threat….
Based on the facts alleged, a reasonable person could construe the handwritten message "We have the Zyklon B … GASTHEJEWS" mailed to the Rabbi's home address as a threat. Therefore, this issue must be left to the finder of fact. Similarly, the indictment's allegations, viewed in the light most favorable to the government, allege Ramos consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustifiable risk that his conduct will cause harm to another. Namely, the indictment alleges that Ramos "d[id] more than make a bad mistake," as the court in Counterman puts it—he "sent the communication for the purpose of issuing a threat."
Sounds right to me.
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Hey look, another “very fine person” Trump can add to his pardon list.
But yeah, seems pretty reasonable to me as well.
Congratulations! You have stretched the bounds of idiocy to new limits.
Have you only been on this forum for five minutes? 😉
He pardoned worse people than this idiot.
Like Marc Rich. Man, that Trump guy is evil!
Do you have any idea what kinds of people Trump has pardoned?
Is it uniquely different than what other Presidents have pardoned?
Wow, it seems like just yesterday we had someone in the comments talking about sending people to Zyklon B showers… oh, wait… that was actually yesterday.
If the defendant is convicted, does the same standard of review apply on appeal?
As often happens in these cases, I don’t take the threat as serious enough for a conviction. Can you imagine the red tape you have to go through to get a building permit for a gas chamber? If the defendant wrote about waiting outside a particular synagogue with a gun the threat would be more serious.
I don’t think the idea is that the statement was intended to suggest that the victim was going to be literally put into an extermination camp-style execution chamber. Rather, I think the idea is that it was intended to hyperbolically convey a serious threat of more conventional harm.
I agree with Noscitur.
Although I have to admit, I would love to see the defense of, “I meant an actual gas chamber. But it’s not a threat because, c’mon, have you tried to get a building permit? I tried to build my gas chamber, and the building official was all like, ‘Not up to code.'”
Can a true threat really be hyperbolically conveyed? I find this to be a pretty scary precedent that will capture a ton of tough talk. “I”ll grind you into dust!” suddenly becomes a true threat.
Sure, as long as the underlying meaning being conveyed is still a threat. “I’m going to punch you so hard your grandchildren will feel it” is a threat if it conveys that you’re going to punch the person, even if they’re pretty sure their grandchildren won’t notice.
If, and only if, it expresses a threat to do some kind of lesser but actual harm.
If someone says “I’ll punch you so hard your grandchildren will feel it,” that’s reasonably understood as a threat to punch someone. The hyperbole comes in the consequence, not the action. I think that’s distinguishable. It’s not a threat to pinch the person, hyperbolically expressed.
“GASTHEJEWS” isn’t even individualized. Really a closer analogue would be “Crucify the opposition!”
Remember the Alfred Hitchcock episode where the bad guy murders his victims with gas in the basement, then at the end (Murderers couldn’t get away with it) Al says “the murderer ended up in the Gas Cham-berrrrrrrr, Good Ev-en-Ning!”
More specifically, it looks like the defendant operated a scented candle company that sold these postcards and offered to send them anonymously on the purchaser’s behalf. The link is visible on the bottom left of the image, although it looks like this particular product is no longer available.
https://forward.com/fast-forward/587978/antisemitic-postcard-kosher-bakery-atlanta/
You can’t make this stuff up.
Here’s the company’s website.
https://thepatriotcandleco.com/
The web address on the postcard is actually http://www.patriotcandleco.com. It is not functioning now but a few months ago did offer a collection of hyperpatriot, antisemitic, and pro-Nazi scented candles and other merchandise including postcards, and claimed to be operated by L.O.G. Enterprises LLC with a mailing address in High Point, NC.
The link you provide is for the similarly named The Patriot Candle Company of Webb City, MO who appear to limit themselves mostly to patriotic and firearms themed candles and not the other stuff. There is a The Patriot Candle Co. LLC registered in Missouri and other than the similarity in names and some messaging it has no obvious connection to the NC operation.
Hmm, maybe I should say “no clear connection”. The Missouri LLC was registered in May of this year, the same month the North Carolina company’s website stopped working. That is at least suggestive of a connection though certainly not conclusive.
In (im)-plausible deniability, he might simply be offering a new scent for his line of scented candles.
Given the nature of the particular threat in this case; your username is, um, unfortunate. 🙂
Actually, it looks to me like there’s an error in Judge Treadwell’s analysis, unless I’m missing something. He writes that the evidence could establish that the defendant “consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustifiable risk that his conduct will cause harm to another”—i.e. that he was reckless. But while the Supreme Court held that recklessness is enough to satisfy the First Amendment in Counterman v. Colorado (the case Judge Treadwell cites here), in Elonis v. United States, it held that knowledge is required under the federal threatening communication statute. True, that case concerned a different statute, 18 U.S.C. § 875, but I don’t see how the analysis could be different: if anything, the case is even stronger for the statute here, § 876, because it explicitly requires that the defendant act knowingly. So just establishing that the defendant consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the communication would be perceived as threatening wouldn’t be enough to establish a violation: he needed to know or intend that it would.
Now, the record here seems to support such a conclusion, so I do think the bottom-line result is probably right.
The motion to dismiss didn’t raise that issue.
Ah, the problem of “true threats”.
See, saying something just to make someone scared is protected speech. It only becomes a “true threat” when your intent shifts from making them scared, to actually forewarning of intended violence.
And that’s left to a jury to figure out.
So it’s nice that this rabbi is getting the benefit of the law here, but the vast majority of threats are ignored by the police because the victim just isn’t high profile enough for them to care.
That is not an accurate statement of this area of the law.
Nor is this.
It is true, however, that threats are prosecuted far less than they should be.
Dude, if you can convince a jury “oh, I didn’t really mean it, I was just trying to scare the guy”, you get off.
You may be able to argue about how the law is supposed to work, but this is how the law does work.
Intentionally putting a person in fear of bodily harm is the crime of assault.
Please reread my last line.
How many threats cases have you personally handled?
The common law crime of assault required fear of imminent harm. A true threat doesn’t require imminence to be criminalized.
Imminence may not be an element of the crime of threatening someone, but the less imminent, the less likely a reasonable person would actually be placed in fear and the less likely it was intended to create such fear, as opposed to being hyperbole or figurative.
Yes, obviously to convict someone of making an illegal threat, the elements have to be proven to a jury, just like any other crime.
My point is:
1. Unlike most other crimes, the first amendment implications mean that it’s generally not just a question for the jury: the judge also plays a much more significant role than typical in assessing whether the statements are punishable.
2. On the other hand, the jury doesn’t certainly need to find that the defendant actually intended to do anything: under Counterman, a statute can punish a defendant who merely know that there’s a substantial risk that the statement will be perceived as a threat.
3. Likewise, a “true threat” certainly doesn’t require that the defendant actually intended to carry it out.
You seem very upset that, despite never claiming to be a lawyer, I’m able to accurately identify that your idea of how the law should be applied does not match up with how it is applied.
You seem very confident that your made up notions reflect reality.
I guess the point I’m trying to convey is that, in addition to an academic knowledge of what appellate courts have said about how the law works, I’ve also seen how it works in practice, by handling a number of actual court cases where actual people were actually being charged with actual crimes for allegedly making threatening statements, and the way I’ve seen it work is consistent with what I’ve described.
Which is why I’m asking you for the source of your information about how things “really” work.
And if someone being confidently wrong about how the law works were enough to upset me, I would have had a stroke a long time ago.
You say you’re not upset, your word count says otherwise.
And dude, survivorship bias. The cases that get to court are a small sliver of death threat cases, probably even worse then rape cases which notoriously have low prosecution rates. If you exclude all those cases that get dropped from your analysis, it’s not accurate.
I’m afraid you lost me. I’m certainly not suggesting that everyone who plausibly makes a prosecutable threat gets prosecuted or convicted; on the contrary, I said exactly the opposite. Indeed, that’s the one point on which you were correct.
That said, there’s no need to be embarrassed about being wrong. Lots of people are wrong all the time, you don’t have to get defensive about it.
Doesn’t the Prosecution have to prove that the Defendant has the capability to carry out the threat?
No.
+1 have no idea if you’re right or wrong, but love the brevity! The conviction! Well the brevity anyway, which I’m not brevitating at all
No, you don’t. You have just convinced the jury you’re guilty.
Dude, if you can convince a jury “oh, I didn’t mean for him to take it seriously, I was just trying to give the guy an irrational fright,” you get off.
Yes, if you convince the jury that you didn’t commit one of the elements of the crime, you would expect to be acquitted.
David Nieporent’s point is that EscherEnigma’s formulation would be admitting the elements of the crime, rather than contravening them.
“I didn’t mean it” and “I didn’t mean for him to take it seriously” are very different things. “I was just trying to scare the guy” is an admission that you did mean for him to take it seriously.
Maybe I don’t sufficiently understand the context, but this doesn’t seem like a true threat to me. The postcard seemingly invites the recipient to respond to this great offer to get a discount on the Zyklon B. Is the suggestion that if he doesn’t respond he doesn’t get the discount? Or is it that if he doesn’t respond, he gets it free? That doesn’t make sense. Sure, the sender sounds like a real jerk, and the message is offensive. I just don’t see how it conveys to the recipient that the sender intends to do him harm.
Is English not your native language, or are you on the spectrum or something? One need not say, “I am going to kill you” to convey the notion, “I am going to kill you.”
On the other hand, almost all cases of not saying “I am going to kill you.” are NOT conveying the notion that you’re going to kill them.
This looks like somewhat tasteless dark humor to me.
Oh, yeah, yukyukyuk what a laugh!
Like the man says.
The sender of the post card is an ass.
1) Zyklon B is no longer manufactured.
2) Does the Rabbi have a tunnel under the house ?
3) While in extremely bad taste, the post card is too indirect to be taken as a real threat of death towards anyone.
The shock value is there, but there’s no identifiable true threat of harm being made.