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Second Amendment Roundup: Supreme Court Grants Cert in Mexico v. Smith & Wesson
A cartel-dominated state blames America’s lawful gun industry for its violence.
On October 4, the Supreme Court granted cert in Smith & Wesson Brands v. Estados Unidos Mexicanos. It involves Mexico's suit against the American firearms industry, which alleges that the industry enables the drug cartels to empower their stranglehold over Mexican society. The First Circuit upheld the claim by reversing the dismissal of the case granted by the District Court in Massachusetts.
The absurdity of Mexico's lawsuit is illuminated by action in another case just days later. On October 16, U.S. District Judge Brian Cogan in Brooklyn sentenced Genaro Garcia Luna to 460 months imprisonment for engaging in a continuing criminal enterprise, international cocaine distribution conspiracy, conspiracy to distribute and possess with intent to distribute cocaine, and conspiracy to import cocaine. But Luna wasn't just another El Chapo, whom Judge Cogan sent to the big house five years ago.
For over a decade, Luna was the head of Mexico's Federal Investigative Agency, and then became Secretary of Public Security. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, Luna "used his official positions to assist the violent Sinaloa Cartel (the Cartel) in exchange for millions of dollars in bribes." That included "facilitating safe passage of the drug shipments, providing sensitive law enforcement information about investigations into the Cartel and helping the Cartel attack rival drug cartels…." He thereby enabled over a million kilograms (over 2.2 million pounds) of cocaine to be imported into the United States.
But corruption-ridden Mexico wants to blame America's lawful gun industry for its status as a failed state. In the cert petition, the petitioners describe the background to the question presented as follows:
The Mexican Government has sued leading members of the American firearms industry, seeking to hold them liable for harms inflicted by Mexican drug cartels. According to Mexico, America's firearms companies have engaged in a series of business practices for decades—from selling semi-automatic rifles, to making magazines that hold over ten rounds, to failing to impose various sales restrictions—that have created a supply of firearms later smuggled across the border and ultimately used by the cartels to commit crimes. Mexico asks for billions of dollars in damages, plus extensive injunctive relief imposing new gun-control measures in the United States.
The district court dismissed the case under the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA), which generally bars suits against firearms companies based on criminals misusing their products. But the First Circuit reversed. It held that PLCAA does not bar this suit because Mexico stated a claim that defendants' business practices have aided and abetted firearms trafficking to the cartels, proximately harming the Mexican government.
The petition states that the following two legal issues under PLCAA require resolution by the Court:
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- Whether the production and sale of firearms in the United States is the "proximate cause" of alleged injuries to the Mexican government stemming from violence committed by drug cartels in Mexico.
- Whether the production and sale of firearms in the United States amounts to "aiding and abetting" illegal firearms trafficking because firearms companies allegedly know that some of their products are unlawfully trafficked.
PLCAA was enacted to require dismissal at the inception of lawsuits like this. Other courts have recognized that. The First Circuit's decision creates a circuit split.
Back in the 1980s, unable to convince legislatures to ban handguns, the anti-gun movement began filing lawsuits against the industry for crimes committed by third parties. It didn't matter that the courts disagreed with the theory of liability, because the industry could be bankrupted by legal fees. Over time, municipalities became plaintiffs in such suits, only to be rebuffed by the courts. Congress finally stepped in by passing PLCAA to stop these abusive lawsuits.
The anti-gun movement continues to pursue the same strategy. One of Mexico' lawyers listed on the complaint is Jonathan Lowy, counsel for BRADY (formerly Handgun Control, Inc.). BRADY supports repeal of PLCAA, but resorts to the courts to undermine the law since Congress has not done so.
Mexico's complaint parrots the same kinds of allegations which PLCAA was designed to bar. As summarized by the First Circuit, Mexico alleges that "by passing along guns knowing that the purchasers include unlawful buyers, and making design and marketing decisions targeted towards those exact individuals, the manufacturer is aiding and abetting illegal sales." As everyone knows, the manufacturers sell to distributors, which sell to dealers. Each of these entities is licensed under the Gun Control Act and is subject to ATF inspection and oversight. The complaint includes no allegation that any of the defendants violated U.S. laws or knew that others with whom they did business did so.
While there is thus no proximate harm from America's lawful firearms industry to Mexico, the First Circuit proposes the following incredible analogy:
Imagine that a U.S. company sent a mercenary unit of combat troops to attack people in Mexico City. Such an attack would directly cause Mexico itself the expense of paying soldiers to defend the city. Proximate cause would be quite clear. So, too, here, where the defendants are alleged to have armed the attackers for their continuing assaults.
The Mexican government itself, through bad actors such as Genaro Garcia Luna, has facilitated the ability of the cartels to attack people in Mexico. We frequently read stories of Mexican villages that form militias to protect themselves from the drug gangs. The Mexican government has failed at the most fundamental duty of any government: protecting the population under its rule.
While allowing, and being bribed to allow, the cartels to run rampant over the country, the government has only a single gun store in the entire country to allow law-abiding citizens to purchase firearms – and it's run by the military in Mexico City.
As it colludes with American actors to destroy the Second Amendment – after all, that's the point of the whole exercise of bringing its lawsuit – the Mexican government reinforces its own contempt for civil liberties, such as the fundamental human right to defend life.
Mexico's 1857 constitution (Art. 10) provided: "Every man has the right to have and to carry arms for his security and legitimate defense. The law will indicate which arms are prohibited and the penalty for those that will carry prohibited arms." That was whittled down in the same article of its 1917 constitution to say that the inhabitants have "a right to arms in their homes, for security and legitimate defense, with the exception of arms prohibited by federal law and those reserved for the exclusive use of the [military]. Federal law will determine the cases, conditions, requirements, and places in which the carrying of arms will be authorized to the inhabitants."
In other words, Mexican citizen have a "right" to arms only as granted by the government. For further insights on the topic, see David Kopel's article "Mexico's Gun Control Laws: A Model for the United States?"
After the briefs were filed, Mexico made a last-minute attempt to scuttle the case. Smith & Wesson notified the Supreme Court that, just recently, six manufacturers had been dismissed by the district court for lack of personal jurisdiction. However, the suit remained live against Smith & Wesson and Interstate Arms. Mexico responded that the dismissals undermined the petitioners' arguments about the importance of the case. The Court ignored Mexico's filing and granted cert.
Understanding the issues in Mexico v. S&W requires a deep dive into PLCAA. While not framed as a Second Amendment case, the issues profoundly affect whether that right will be protected. PLCAA itself begins with a reaffirmation of Second Amendment rights and how lawsuits have been brought against the industry for crimes committed by third parties. See 15 U.S.C. § 7901 et seq. It declares that a "qualified civil liability action," defined as an action against a federal firearms licensee for damages or other relief resulting from the criminal or unlawful misuse of a firearm, "may not be brought in any Federal or State court."
There is a predicate exception from the ban on such lawsuits if the manufacturer or seller of a firearm "knowingly violated a State or Federal statute applicable to the sale or marketing of the product [firearm], and the violation was a proximate cause of the harm for which relief is sought…." That exception includes false entries in required records and conspiracy to sell a firearm knowing that the actual buyer is a prohibited person. Ignoring that the plain meaning of the exception encompasses violations only of specific firearm statutes, the First Circuit decided that Mexico's common-law claims qualified and that Mexico sufficiently alleged that the defendants' actions were the proximate cause of harm.
The survival of America's gun industry, and thus the Second Amendment, depends on the resolution of those claims. The Supreme Court should dispose of the case with an order pursuant to § 7902 of PLCAA: "A qualified civil liability action … shall be immediately dismissed by the court in which the action was brought or is currently pending."
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Impeach the First Circus!
"The survival of America's gun industry, and thus the Second Amendment, depends on the resolution of those claims."
Saying the quiet part out loud. "What will help the gun industry sell more guns" has been the guiding star of Prof. Halbrook's 2A analysis.
We need a domestic gun industry for national security reasons.
If “more” means “more than zero”, sure.
Is it quiet? We hate lawsuits stripping rights!
Until we love it!
We've been over this before: Something like a third of the population are gun owners, the NRA has several million members, a right to own arms is explicitly included in the Bill of Rights, and the firearms industry is one of the smaller industries in the country.
And you want to pretend all opposition to gun control is astroturfed by the firearms industry. If you actually believe that you need therapy.
It's on a par with thinking all 1st amendment scholarship is commanded by Big Printer.
Only 1/3? are you counting Cums-a-lot, Fancy Nancy Pelosi, Tim "I coached Foo-bawl" Waltz, John Kerry? Dick Chaney? (and I'll bet Liz) And since I don't buy guns from gun dealers (like I've never bought a car from a car dealer, or a house from a house dealer*) I think I've met most of them (Gun Owners) Used to go to Gun Shows, years ago, not so much for the show, but the deals you could make in the parking lot, and pre-Internets it was about the only place to find the odd calibers (although I did find a box of 6.5 Carcano at a Walmart in Knoxville TN, weird)
* but I've only bought Marriage-a-Juan-a from Marriage-a-Juna-a dealers, go figure.
Frank
Bellmore — A smallish fraction of gun owners think as you do about the 2A. Not many even give it a thought. Almost none of them would personally join activity to try to intimidate the government with arms. You and the extremist commenters here have talked yourselves into going far out an extremist limb. Because you reinforce each other, and never hear from less doctrinaire gun owners, you have convinced yourselves you are reasonable and normal. You are neither.
"A smallish fraction of gun owners think as you do about the 2A."
Would you stop pulling this stuff out of your ass, and maybe consult a poll, instead?
Guns: Gallup Historical trends
"Do you believe the Second Amendment to the U.S. constitution guarantees the rights of Americans to own guns, or do you believe it only guarantees members of state militias such as National Guard units the right to own guns?"
Right to own guns
Adults: 73%
Gun owners: 91%
Non-owners: 63%
Now, if you mean that only a small fraction of gun owners ENTIRELY agree with me about the 2nd amendment? Sure. Maybe ten million, tops. An entirely insignificant number of people.
But that it guarantees an individual right to own guns? No, almost all gun owners agree on that much, and a solid majority even of people who don't own guns.
For a while there was a fad among jurists and legal scholars of pretending the 2nd amendment meant something that wouldn't get in the way of gun control. It never got much penetration outside academia.
If that is really the way the poll was presented, "Right to own guns," doesn't even distinguish between a militia right and anything else. I doubt what you have shown is an accurate representation of the poll, because I doubt Gallup would do something that stupid.
"I doubt what you have shown is an accurate representation of the poll"
Out of curiosity, are you unfamiliar with how hyperlinks work, or do you think gallup.com is not a good source for gallup polls, or what?
The poll question specifically asks you to distinguish between a militia 'right' and a private right.
And, what Absaroka said.
Have you considered not attacking a straw man and using the link to go to the poll provided? Or will that get in the way of being obtuse?
Hey that's profound. And I have no doubt a future Harris administration would extend such absurd authoritarian logic to the First Amendment. After all, this free expression crap is just helping the media sell newspapers.
Is Smith & Wesson permitted to file a countersuit against Mexico?
If not, it shows the bullshyte nature of this suit -- and if it can, what about fraudulently permitting its products to be illegally used and related negligence?
Personally, I think Smith & Wesson ought to move the rest of its operations to Tennessee. See: https://ir.smith-wesson.com/news-releases/news-release-details/smith-wesson-relocate-headquarters-tennessee
Who would S&W sue in Mexico, and over what? Do you think a court in Mexico would offer a fair trial?
No, can the defendant in the US COURT countersue the plaintiff?
If the state of Mexico is suing a US citizen, has the state waived sovereign immunity and hence liable for a countersuit?
And lest you respond with another sophomoric comment, "state" here means as defined under International law and treaty, not one of the 46 US States.
Anyone is permitted to file a suit against anyone else. The actual question is whether the suit would be non-frivolous. Here, of course, the simple answer to a very very stupid question is: no, it would not be non-frivolous.
What would Smith & Wesson's cause of action be in this hypothetical countersuit?
As best as I can tell, this suit is some combination of negligence and conspiracy involving S&W's legal sale of arms to other parties who ILLEGALLY exported them to Mexico.
The GREATER negligence or conspiracy of the plaintiff is a defense, isn't it? And if Mexico can sue for this, then why can't Mexico be sued for it?
If Mexico, through conspiracy and negligence, sold arms in the US that were then illegally exported to Mexico and harmed Mexican citizens, then Smith and Wesson has no standing to sue over it, even if they could overcome immunity otherwise.
Where's Mexico's negligence in this? I'm confused.
It could be, yes.
Sued by whom? Sued for what? You can't sue for a defense. How did Mexico harm Smith & Wesson?
Well, THAT at least has an answer: By deliberately filing a frivolous lawsuit barred by federal law in order to impose litigation costs on S&W.
1) You're making up an entirely different case than Dr. Ed's proposal for S&W to sue Mexico for negligence in allowing guns or violence or something.
2) Since Mexico prevailed at the 1C, S&W obviously cannot successfully argue that Mexico's suit was frivolous.
3) Why would Mexico care about imposing litigation costs on S&W? If it were some anti-gun advocacy group suing S&W, that argument might make sense. But it's not.
Ah yes, the "I know you are but what am I" cause of action.
"But corruption-ridden Mexico wants to blame America's lawful gun industry for its status as a failed state."
When you've got a radically anti-gun administration like the present one, (Regardless of who's currently actually in charge.) you can't rule out that they're getting some encouragement from our government.
This, after all, matches the lie that the Obama administration, which Biden was VP for, tried to manufacture evidence for with Fast and Furious.
If we win in 13 days, as it appears we will, what then?
There is talk of tossing BOTH Trump and Vance into jail.
That latter was news to me, but, sure enough:
Haitian nonprofit files criminal charges against Donald Trump, JD Vance over Springfield statements
Even for lawfare, that one's a stretch.
Could Obama be prosecuted for the manslaughter of Brian Terry?
Love Smith & Wessons, although they've been shit since they stopped pinning the barrels/recessing the chambers in the 1980's ("P&R" to the cognizenti and if I have to explain any of that, you're beyond help), I own, lets see (with gun's I'm like these Welfare Mammies who can't remember the names of all of their kids) Models 10, 13 (Blue and Stainless, this was the FBI Model before they went Semi Auto (and stopped requiring Law/Accounting Degrees, some semblance of Physical Agility/Strength, XY Genotype), 19 (2, pinned and non-pinned) 27, 2 model 28's, 29 (the Dirty Hairy model), 37, 66 (Stainless version of the 19)
Still looking for a P&R Models 24, 25, and a 27 with a 3 inch barrel instead of the 4 (an inch matters)
No S&W Semi Autos, S&W Semi Auto is like going to Mortons and ordering the Chicken, I go to Beretta, Springfield Armory, CZ for my 9mm/45 (never got into the 40S&W, mainly because I've got 10,000 rounds of 9mm/45)
Where was I, oh yeah, Smith's, that fuck Luna should be shot in the head with one, instead of getting Refried Beans/Taco's on the Government dime the next 40 years
Frank "Nut, Gun"
How long is it before ammo goes out of code, when you are no longer certain of 100% reliability?
This is a concern with our nukes -- while we have computer models suggesting that they would work, we are not certain they actually would go bang.
Stored properly, modern ammo is good for decades. Some people use a little nail polish around the primer and the bullet seating to try to extend the life, but really, unless you're not keeping them dry, what's the point?
Military ammo has such seals against moisture. And, it lasts apparently forever. I still have 1950's .303 British ammo that is like new, in appearance and performance. I'm still shooting from my cache of Vietnam-era Lake City Arsenal 5.56 ammo; it's supremely well made, reliable, and accurate. And, the brass is probably the best ever made, which I, of course, save and reload.
Nukes are not manufactured and then left to sit gathering dust. They are regularly maintained. Tritium, in one of the most obvious examples, has a half-life of ~12 years. It is regularly replaced in warheads that use it to boost yield. U235 has a half-life of ~700 Million years, so no one is particularly worried about it naturally decaying out of operational capability.
Thanks for the pseudo-intellectual non-sequitur of the day, Grampa.
You do have a little worry about the fissile component of plutonium based nukes, I understand. THAT only has a 24KY half life. Not so much that the fuel isn't capable of exploding, but that accumulated radiation damage might change its behavior while imploding, leading to a less efficient explosion.
Properly made primers and gunpowder are far more stable than radioactive material like plutonium or uranium which predictably decays.
Eh, chemical compounds like primers and powder have half-lives, too, you know. It's just that, unlike radioactive isotopes, they depend on things like temperature and humidity. Anything that has a lower energy state it can decay into WILL decay into it, at SOME rate, after all.
On a human scale, neither is something you have to worry much about if you're using proper storage conditions.
The best semi-auto handgun ever made is a 1960's vintage Colt commercial model 1911. In .45 ACP, of course. End of discussion.
Special protections for the gun industry still have a way to go before they overtake child pornography as a goad to bad law. But with a corruptly partisan Court determined to close the gap, that goal looks within reach.
The lawful Commerce act just restored the firearms industry to the default protection all industries normally enjoy: No third party liability for misuse.
If a mobster breaks your kneecaps with a Stanley Slugger, can you sue the manufacturer? If a bank is robbed, and the getaway driver drives a Ford, is Ford liable? Does Wusthof regularly face lawsuits over people being stabbed with kitchen knives?
No. Such third party liability suits are normally thrown out as frivolous.
The act was a response to the fact that a movement had started to sue firearms manufacturers into bankruptcy by filing frivolous lawsuits before cooperative judges who wouldn't enforce the normal rules against third party liability. The organizers actually bragged that they didn't need to win even one lawsuit to prevail, because they could impose legal costs even if they lost, and THEY had deep pocket backers.
Bellmore — Put back into the 2A the excised militia clause, get out of it your imaginary rights to vigilantism, armed political intimidation, and insurrection, and everything you wrote above falls apart. The stupid analogies to baseball bats, automobiles, and kitchen knives would be the first to go.
Over-developed tendencies to argue by analogy are among the most flagrant indicators of a character stuffed with whatever it is that is the opposite of forthright. Mostly, devious arguments get stuffed with analogies because devious opionators think analogies make evasions and subject changes look respectable.
The 2nd Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms.
I'm simply pointing out that lawsuits imposing third party liability are routinely rejected by the courts, and the Lawful Commerce act was enacted because firearms were becoming an exception to that rule.
The Act didn't give firearms special status, (Though they do have that constitutionally anyway.) it explicitly restored them to normal status.
1. The militia clause is a prefatory clause, and doesn't limit the RKBA to militia members; and even if it did, the definition of militia usually extends to all citizens;
2. Brett's analogies are not at all stupid. And analogies are quite useful in argument, and are, in fact, commonly employed in law.
A firearm is an instrument, just as a car, a baseball bat, a hammer, a kitchen knife, and many other things are. To sue the manufacturer of an instrument because someone uses it to commit a crime is ridiculous, and these suits should simply be dismissed, or better yet, those suing under these pretenses fined or censured.
What does the 2A have to do with it? You don't sue Ford if someone misuses their car, or Stihl for a chainsaw misuse.
The only thing different about guns is that the sale of every gun S&W makes is expressly approved by the federal government, which makes liability claims even sillier than going after Ford. In fact, if you want to talk about reckless, I have heard that Ford and Jim Beam will happily sell their products to convicted drunk drivers. I have bought from both of them, and they didn't run any kind of background check at all!
However, you can certainly imagine the same plaintiff-reasoning would be applied (and probably has been applied) to car manufacturers, "guilty" of marketing cars capable of exceeding the speed limits by significant margins, which are then used by third party drivers to recklessly injure or kill people.
And then there's s230...
"However, you can certainly imagine the same plaintiff-reasoning would be applied (and probably has been applied) to car manufacturers, “guilty” of marketing cars capable of exceeding the speed limits by significant margins, which are then used by third party drivers to recklessly injure or kill people."
Sure, you can sue for anything. But Chevy is still selling Corvettes, so I don't think those suits succeed all that often.
Moreover, if Bloomberg announced he was going to bankroll MADD lawsuits against distilleries, expecting to lose but to bankrupt them with the costs of defense, I would expect congress to pass the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Alcohol Act, because we the voters don't want a billionaire or two to implement Prohibition 2.0 against our will. That's the bottom line here - who decides what the rules are for cars/guns/booze/whatever - the voters or random billionaires.
"And then there’s s230…"
Now you have summoned the demon!
Stephen Lathrop 3 hours ago
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Mute User
"Bellmore — Put back into the 2A the excised militia clause,"
Lathrop - the militia clause was not excised, possibly misinterpreted, but not excised via the Heller, McDonald or Bruen opinions. It was only the individual right that was at issue in any of the three cases, the militia clause was not at issue.
How do you figure? PLCAA was passed in 2005, before Heller, at a point when most judges (especially in left-leaning states) didn’t think the second amendment protected an individual right to own guns. It exists because, on a national level, protecting people’s lawful access to firearms was politically popular, not because anyone thought it was constitutionally mandated.
Stephen, I confess I'm having trouble parsing your comment, but I get the gist: guns are like child porn, or the love of guns is like the love of child porn, and the Supreme Court is corruptly partisan. Is that it?
Perhaps needless to say I disagree with both positions. But I want to make sure I get your position correctly before commenting further.
I think the key point to understand his reasoning, (If you can call it that.) is that there can't be a right to keep and bear arms, because he doesn't approve of such a right.
So nothing in the Constitution, history, or what have you, can establish the existence of such a right, it's nonexistence already having been firmly established by his disliking the idea.
A better explanation of his legal and historical research is he used the same historical research standards used by Stevens in his Heller dissent. starting cherry picking the historical writings, then grossly distort what the historical writings actually said.
There is considerable historical writing on the common defense (militia clause)
There is considerable historical writing on the right to keep and bear arms for self defense (individual right)
There is considerable historical writing on the RKBA for both the common defense and self defense.
The senate voted down a proposal at time of passage to limit to RKBA to the common defense.
The Stevens version of historical research is to ignore the historical writings that support the individual right.
Look, Stevens didn't start with bad historical research, and end up writing the RKBA out of the Constitution. That gets things backwards.
He started out with a determination to write it out of the Constitution, and settled on bad history as a way to accomplish that. Later, in retirement, he essentially admitted he was wrong about what the 2nd amendment meant, by proposing to repeal it.
As I expect you're aware, the evidence on the meaning of the 2nd amendment is sufficiently one sided that anybody researching it arrives at an individual right unless they start out having ruled that conclusion out at the start.
You can see that with somewhat more honest scholars, like Sandford Levinson, Akhil Reed Amar, or Laurence Tribe. They go in meaning to disprove the right, and running into a wall of evidence, give up and admit it exists. They may try to downplay its extent, but they're too honest to deny its existence.
Others simply can't overcome their hostility to the conclusion enough to accept the evidence dictating it.
Brett Bellmore 36 mins ago
" Later, in retirement, he essentially admitted he was wrong about what the 2nd amendment meant, by proposing to repeal it."
Concur - his proposed amendments to 1A and 2A are basically his admissions that he was wrong.
Joe_dallas — My reasoning is that you are right about all those historical cites. They exist! They cannot be ignored. They do not mean what you think they mean. Because none of them have any historical relevance to the 2A.
They all refer to rights protected at the founding by state constitutions. None of them was cited anywhere in support of the 2A. Gun supporters have ransacked the historical record desperately, in search of those citations. None have been found. If they had been, Heller would have been a shorter opinion. Nothing else would have been necessary.
There is a powerful historical argument to suggest it is illogical to suppose any such citations would have been relied upon by the founders, because all of them raised issues upon which they all knew they profoundly disagreed. For instance, to bring up personal self-defense with a firearm, and propose it as a nationally protected right, would threaten any hope of ratification by Virginia or North Carolina—the principal exponents of the militia right—a right they understood as a protection against what they referred to as, "servile rebellion." But to announce that as a national purpose could not have passed muster in Pennsylvania or Massachusetts. So the parts which provoked disputes got bypassed, left to the states to protect variously, as their various interpretations pleased them to do.
That is the accurate historical account of what happened. The burden is on advocates to the contrary to demonstrate otherwise, by citations to the historical record. None have been found. If they had been they would have been in Heller. They are not there. You are mistaken.
"They all refer to rights protected at the founding by state constitutions."
You're simply wrong about this. It's not even close, you're simply wrong.
Halbrook and Kopel, who you must be familiar with, have written extensively on this topic.
I've linked to these sources repeatedly. You're aware of their existence, whether or not you've bothered to read them. So, let's see a bit of it:
"Federalists cited the existing guarantees for personal rights in the state constitutions, [94] the presence of an armed populace, [95] and the lack of a granted power in the proposed Constitution to infringe upon individual liberties [96] as precluding the need for a bill of rights. In keeping with this approach, Coxe questioned the wisdom of considering amendments before the experiment had been tried. [97]
In 1788 Coxe served as one of Pennsylvania's last delegates to the Continental Congress, which held its final session early the following year. [98] In the meantime, the requisite nine states ratified the Constitution. [99] As a compromise with the Constitution's opponents, who agreed not to oppose the Constitution further, many federalists reversed their opposition to a bill of rights in order to entice the remaining states to ratify. On June 8, 1789, in the newly formed U.S. House of Representatives, James Madison proposed a bill of rights that included the following:
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person. [100]
Coxe was in an excellent position to know what Congress was doing; he was living in New York City (where the first Congress was meeting) and was serving as an unofficial policy advisor to several leading congressmen. [101] In this capacity, he *367 helped shape the Judiciary Act of 1789, which created the lower federal courts; legislation regarding the President's power to remove his appointees; and the patent bill. [102]
Perhaps alerted to Madison's proposals in advance of the general public, within ten days "A Pennsylvanian" again appeared in print, this time in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette with his Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution. [103] Probably the most comprehensive section-by-section exposition on the Bill of Rights to be published during its ratification period, Coxe's Remarks included the following:
As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people, duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which shall be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow-citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms. [104]
Coxe sent a copy of his essay to Madison along with a letter of the same date. [105] Madison wrote back acknowledging "Your favor of the 18th instant. The printed remarks inclosed in it are already I find in the Gazettes here New York ." [106] Madison added approvingly that ratification of the amendments "will however be greatly favored by explanatory strictures of a healing tendency, and is therefore already indebted to the co-operation of your pen." [107]
Madison apparently saw Coxe's defense of the amendments in the New York Packet the day before he wrote to Coxe. [108] The Coxe article also was displayed prominently on the first page of the July 4th celebration issue of the Massachusetts Centinel, [109] and was no doubt reprinted elsewhere. Just as Coxe had written energetically for the proposed Constitution, he now wrote with the same vigor for the proposed Bill of Rights."
So, not only do we have contemporaneous sources demonstrating that you're wrong, among them is the very author of the 2nd amendment himself.
Bellmore, neither Halbrook nor Kopel—both paid gun advocates without historical training, and without the slightest professional stake in reputations as historical scholars—merely demonstrate how easy it is to sucker pro-gun romanticists. Romanticists such as yourself, for instance, who long desperately for a historical basis to justify fantasies based mostly on popular entertainments created during and after the latter half of the 19th century.
You apparently can’t even tell that the the quotes you cite again and again (because you have nothing else) from the historically marginal Tench Coxe, are quotes in favor of a militia power—which by the way had been a long-standing basis of income for the Cox family—importing and selling arms to various militias, which as I have also noted, were so chronically short of arms—and especially gunpowder—that they were mostly all but imaginary.
Even Cox himself made exactly the point I have asserted again and again, that folks who feared a federal power over their private arms were misguided. Cox himself said such fears were baseless because those rights were protected by state constitutions, about which the federal government had nothing to say.
When you set out to re-quote cherry-picked historical references that present-minded advocates have selected for your confusion, do not be surprised when you end up confused. You do not even have any notion what it takes to avoid confusion—or deception.
You want to understand the 2A? Start by reading for a few years original colonial records from the pre-revolutionary era. That is the way history works. The context of any era under study is laid down during the years beforehand.
Stuff that happens after the era under study is utterly irrelevant. No one during the era under study knew any better than you do what would happen years later.
Approach history that way, and you will be puzzled at how little of what you expect to find will turn up. That is a routine early experience for even aspiring professional historians. But in your case it will also be because like nearly everyone else, you have bought a bunch of bushwah made up recently. Too much of it made up—or distorted—by the likes of Kopel and Halbrook.
I know these remarks will put not a dent in your confidence that you have it right. So try this challenge: from the era prior to ratification of the Bill of Rights, up to the date of ratification, cite exactly the quote from Tench Coxe you think is most unambiguously supportive of a federal constitutional right of personal self-defense with a gun. Note that I am not talking about personal gun ownership, which the militia right unambiguously supports. I am talking about personal self-defense, explicitly mentioned as a federally-protected firearms right.
Go find it. Quote it exactly. Say when and where it was uttered, and where the original record of it can be found today.
Good luck. If you find it, you will be astonished by the acclaim it will bring you. You will have turned up the one key bit of evidence so-longed-for by so many, and spared them forever more of the embarrassment of looking awkward while making stuff up.
Ok, I see what's going on. You're actually incapable of comprehending words that contradict your position. You're suffering from what Kates et all referred to as "gun-aversive dyslexia":
"The abysmal quality of the anti-gun health advocacy literature may be explained by six conceptually discrete factors: intellectual and locutional sloppiness; intellectual confusion; ignorance of criminological or other facts; fraudulent omission of material fact, or statement of part of the fact calculated to deceive by the suppression of the whole; overt misrepresentation of facts; and what we call gun-aversive dyslexia--a reading disability engendered by a fear and loathing of guns so profound that health advocate sages who encounter adverse facts may be honestly unable to comprehend them."
In reality Tench Coxe was a major Federalist. And here we present Madison, the author of the 2nd amendment, thanking him for publicly explaining it.
A triffle, means nothing!
Bellmore — Unsurprisingly, back on the attack, with more nothing, and with no quote from Coxe to prove me wrong.
By the way, all your repeated references to the Madison exchange show is that you have no experience reading Madison. Just get a good Madison biography and read it.
In correspondence Madison went out of his way to be gracious, and to make a show of accommodation with even opponents against whom he was most alertly on guard. He did it invariably. Think otherwise? Show any words from Madison to Coxe which tend to respond to that challenge from me you are dodging.
'Pfft. Is evidence all you've got?'
Stephen Lathrop 25 mins ago
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Joe_dallas — My reasoning is that you are right about all those
historical cites. They exist!
Lathrop - Yes they do exist - You cant ignore them
lathrops comment - "They do not mean what you think they mean."
lathrop - Explain how the plain meaning of writings leading up to and during the constitutional debate, through the bill or rights dont mean what was written.
Lathrop's comment - "Because none of them have any historical relevance to the 2A."
Absolute BS response - these were historical writing up and during the debate on the constitutional by both the federalists and the anti federalist who insisted on a BoR's. Try not pulling Stevens stunt in his "historical analysis"
Joe_dallas, challenge me with your best stuff, cited specifically. Name of the author, time and place where your citation was presented, in what context, and where is the original record to be found now.
History is no more a game of groundless assertions than is the law. You need citations, or your comments don't count. Show me what you have. I can tell you on the basis of standard rules of academic historical interpretation what is persuasive, and what not.
I will start you out with one rule to save you needless wasted effort. Nothing which actually happened after ratification of the Bill of Rights counts in this debate. In academic history, time's arrow points only one way. You do not get to presume prior influence magically exerted backward through time. Stuff that happens on dates after the era under study may indeed be history, but it is always irrelevant history.
So go find some relevant stuff, and we can talk about it. Here is what your jackpot would look like: something written by a major founder, during approximately the era from 1786 to ratification of the Bill of Rights, saying explicitly that self-defense with a gun was one of the rights intended to be protected by the 2A.
Here is what it would not look like: any assertions about foreign countries, or times and places distant from 13 colonies in the late 18th century, or written by someone not an American, living outside the United States, even during the Constitutional debates.
I mention these exceptions because examples of them show up so often in these debates to waste everyone's time. Let's stay focused.
You're not a historian, and historians aren't stupid enough to believe what you pretend they do. It has nothing to do with "influence." It has to do with evidence. Nobody claims that something in (e.g.) 1790 caused something that happened in 1789. But ideas rarely spring up fully formed spontaneously with no warning, so things that people thought in (e.g.) 1790 are evidence of what people thought in 1789.
But ideas rarely spring up fully formed spontaneously with no warning, so things that people thought in (e.g.) 1790 are evidence of what people thought in 1789.
Nieporent — You might say that. That is not totally incoherent. Especially with regard to January 1790, if the dated text under consideration says something like, “I had this talk with so-and-so over dinner Christmas last, and this is what he told me happened the week before.”
But the rule takes effect pretty quick, and by a year or two hence, a good historian treats the latter-day text as valid evidence of latter-day belief, but not necessarily dispositive of what happened a year or two in the contemporaneous past.
A big problem with doing it the way you suggest is that the longer you extend the interval to credit recollected evidence, the more evidence turns up which turns out to be contradictory, mis-recollected, or of questionable historical provenance.
Also—especially after big events with lots of participants—things happen to change recollections of what happened. And later events occasion re-assessed memories of what happened previously.
Among people who verifiably actually participated, earlier recorded memories can be be discordant with their own later accounts. Multiple people who interacted disagree about what happened during the interactions. And if many people were involved, it will almost always turn out that some of the participants do not even record or share any specific recollections until years later. That seems to have been the case with Paul Revere and his famous ride. And of course Madison withheld publication of his indispensable notes until many years later.
The longer you extend the interval to credit stuff like that, the more the confusions multiply. Eventually the multiplications seem exponentially to propel each other.
The clarifying methodology is indeed to treat cases like those as evidence of beliefs held at the time of the recollections, more than to credit such cases as reliable evidence of what happened on the dates recollected. Naturally, corroborative evidence reliably dated to be contemporary with events in question must get full weight.
On the other hand, three-plus centuries of history following the Plymouth landing are full of stuff that looks like cross-corroboration to show that half the Plymouth colony starved to death during the first winter. Authoritative texts published in the 1960s still referred to, “the starving time.” An annotated version of William Bradford’s journal published in the mid-20th century contains those very words in a marginal note.
In fact, there is no contemporaneous evidence at all to show that anyone who died at Plymouth during that winter and spring died of starvation. There turned out to be a mountain of long-overlooked evidence to contradict even a suspicion that the deaths which undoubtedly did occur were caused by starvation. That included the remarkable fact that nobody in any contemporaneous record ever mentioned starvation, or even being a bit peckish. So the historical question shifted to how the starvation tale got started, and why. Maybe that one has yet to be solved.
The issue how demanding to be about questions of that sort has been used at times as a means to sort historians on the question of methodological rigor, with chronological absolutists sometimes criticized as too rigorous. One of the best professors who taught me historical methods was sometimes called too rigorous, so maybe I tend that way myself. I found that if you get good marks from a mentor judged sternly rigorous, it seems not to do you discredit.
But that's a strawman, as no one piece of evidence — whether about historical or contemporaneous events, whether preceding or subsequent to the event one is trying to understand — is ever dispositive. The evidence could be cherrypicked. The historical original source one is relying on could have been mistaken or lying. Or there could've been good faith disagreement at the time about a given event or idea.
lathrop
One additional factor that destroys the anti individual right argument was the senate voted down a proposal to limit 2A to the common defence during the time congress as voting on the BoR.
Joe_dallas — Another exception, but this time not so egregious as the others I mentioned above. If you intend to show as a historical matter that something that did not happen implies a particular interpretation, you may have a point.
To prove your asserted implication, you need a lot more than mention that someone declined to do something. Doing things may look inherently purposeful.
Not doing things . . .? Who knows why? It is foolish to let motivated reasoning make you look certain, when everyone can see you ought to remain in doubt.
If I had absolutely nothing to the contrary, I might be inclined to drift very slightly in the direction of your interpretation. With a mountain of evidence, and strong reasons to the contrary, not only not so much, no drift at all.
You know, a really nice border wall combined with serious border enforcement would make it much harder to get those (alleged) guns into Mexico. Perhaps Mexico would be willing to pay for a portion of that wall and enforcement. If they are serious that is. Or maybe this is just a cash grab combined with a push for the imposition of progressive policies on another country.