The Volokh Conspiracy
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Did Yale, Princeton, and Duke Violate SFFA in Last Year's Admissions Cycle?
Following the Supreme Court's decision in SFFA in 2023, barring the use of racial preferences in admissions, admissions patterns at most elite universities followed the pattern one would expect: enrollment of black and Hispanic students declined, and enrollment of Asian-American students increased. Three major exceptions to this pattern are Yale, Princeton, and Duke. At each of these universities, enrollment of black students was basically flat, and enrollment of Asian-American students was actually down. Enrollment of Hispanic students, meanwhile, was flat at Princeton and Duke and actually up at Yale.
In today's New York Times, University of Chicago lawprof Sonja Starr argues that we shouldn't assume that these schools were cheating, and offers 3 alternative explanations:
The first possible reason is that schools do not admit students in a vacuum. They compete for them. Why did fewer Asian American students enroll this year at Yale, Duke and Princeton? Perhaps they went to other elite schools instead … The second plausible explanation for the schools' demographics has to do with the statistics themselves: Duke and Princeton had a large rise in the number of students declining to identify themselves by race. (Yale does not report this figure.) If that rise was concentrated among Asian American students, it could explain the apparent drop-off in their numbers. [DB This would not explain the Hispanic and African American figures.]… The third possible reason the critics' suspicion is unfounded is the most important: It is perfectly lawful for universities to seek to preserve racial diversity. Even if it turns out that colleges are deliberately seeking to keep Black and Hispanic students well represented, this would not in itself raise a legal problem.
Color me skeptical. First, I find it extremely suspicious that all three schools had almost exactly the same percentage of African-American matriculants this year as in the recent past, and two of the three had almost the exact same percentage of Hispanic students. Given what necessarily were substantial changes in their admissions processes, this is an awfully "interesting" coincidence. Relatedly, I find it unlikely that Starr's first explanation would have nearly the dramatic effect it would need to have to explain this year's matriculation results.
Second, each of these schools signed an amicus brief to the Supreme Court stating that there was no way no they could possibly achieve similar racial diversity as in the past without using racial preferences. If Starr is right that the universities in question found other ways to achieve diversity without using race as a factor in admissions, it suggests one of two possibilities, neither of which is flattering. First, the schools knew that they could achieve diversity without using racial preferences but declined to do so, even though pre-SFFA Supreme Court precedent required them to use race only as a last resort, and even though this meant that they were lying in their amicus brief. Second, the schools were able to achieve racial diversity without using racial preferences but had never bothered to try to do so before, again despite precedent requiring them to.
Most likely though, all three schools illegally considered race in filling a soft quota for underrepresented minority students while also avoiding accepting more Asian-American students.
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Come on, man.
You don't REALLY think a supreme court verdict actually applies to the elites do you?
“admissions patterns at *most elite universities* followed the pattern one would expect: enrollment of black and Hispanic students declined, and enrollment of Asian-American students increased.”
When all you have is an elite conspiracy hammer….
These particular universities would be the intersection of "elite" and "defiant".
This small minority of elite institutions? Well, that proves Longtobefree’s generalization!
When all you have is wokism and bigotry, on the other hand ...
Laughably non-responsive. Your handle is two words too many.
Your comment was responsive? Like begets like, or are you so blinded by partisanship you didn't notice I copied your comment?
Yes, it pointed out that the generalization was unwarranted. Now, how do you think yours was responsive?
Why exactly is having a ton of black students who are unqualified a positive thing? Is a white student's experience enriched because DaQuan or Shitavius is sitting next to him in class?
No one is this conversation said it was, so what are you talking about? This conversation is about whether elites or elite colleges generally ignore the law.
Is a white student’s experience enriched because DaQuan is sitting next to him in class?
Speaking from experience: yes.
Increased sexual opportunities can not justify racial discrimination.
Great point.
Many college students want to lay with cute white girls.
It's not a university's job to guarantee that.
Nor can racial discrimination be justified.
DB with an unproven but least charitable take on on one of his hobbyhorses? Color me shocked!
Malika with the unproven but least charitable take on someone else's take? Color me shocked!
Lol, yes there’s a less charitable take than they were cheating and acting illegally, so totes unproven. You may want to think a bit more when you figure you have something cute to say next time.
Wow, you really don’t want blacks and Hispanics at Ivy League schools! But I don’t recall the Supreme Court ordering an increase in Asian American students at the expense of either of those groups. And really, this was about strengthening legacy admissions and the sort for white students who are unfairly denied their birthright just because some poor kid is more qualified for the spot. The Asian American advocacy is as genuine as their concern for women’s health and the sanctity of elections.
No, really, this was about the universities discriminating against Asians because they were disproportionately more qualified for the spots, and the universities didn't like that, it took away spaces they needed for people who weren't as qualified on their merits, but who had the right skin color.
Whites are mostly bystanders in the academic quota wars, the real victims are the Asians and Jews, groups who have the misfortune to be disproportionately qualified, but not swarthy enough.
When segregation at UNC was ended, White enrollment declined.
Was that a bad thing?
Not if it was a result of better qualified people getting the spaces.
not for their basketball teams and marching band
The Constitution does not does not enact Mr. Brett Bellmore's telepathic findings.
It does, however, enact non-discrimination by government agents.
This was not the case for college admission until quite recently.
And the rest is just you making up what's in people's heads.
It should not have been the case after Brown was decided.
For 86 years you could have said the same about K-12. Was Brown wrong, then?
Segregation is not affirmative action, of course.
Does it give you a moment's pause that schools and even the Supreme Court see this distinction?
Segregation and affirmative action since roughly when LBJ took over, were both just systematic racial discrimination.
And I think you're vastly exaggerating how much the Supreme court is on your side.
people who weren’t as qualified on their merits
This is the real myth of this whole debate. There’s no such thing as a perfect total ordering of applicants based on some divine formula for “merit.”
This was really the point that you were pretending not to get on the Kansas Prof thread. There is inevitably a weighting of various factors, the values of which are to some extent subjective to the decider.
The trustees of the university (and at a government university, ultimately the legislature) are entitled to query the values chosen by the administrators, and whether their weighting is in practice actually as they claim it is. And so are the funders, insofar as their funding decisions go.
But the legal issue, where the law forbids X as a value with any weight, is simply whether the administrators have chosen X as a weighted value, either directly, or by subterfuge.
If applicants with X are chosen significantly more often than is likely by a weighting that appears to be X neutral, that is prima facie evidence that subterfuge is at work. But only prima facie evidence. An investigation might reveal subterfuge, or the absence of subterfuge. If the unusual statistical result does not persist in later years then that might suggest mere chance at work.
Obviously if administrators insist, in court, that Y cannot possibly occur without X, and then Y does occur, they claim without X, that is at least interesting.
Just to get this out of the way...
whether the administrators have chosen X as a weighted value, either directly, or by subterfuge
The Court pretty much said subterfuge was ok, actually. Thomas wrote a whole thing about how great subterfuge is in this context. It's called "race-neutral alternatives."
Anyway...
There is inevitably a weighting of various factors
The problem that you, David, and your ilk have always had is your absolute fixation on race. There are other factors that are explicitly illegal and in use, particularly sex, but do you care? Not at all. There are tons of factors that are "unfair" in the same way as race, like geographical origin, but do you care about any of those? Nope.
It's all about reducing the number of Black and Hispanic college students for you lot. That's the entire goal. Everything else is "subterfuge."
your absolute fixation on race
Actually, if I have a "fixation" it's on figures in authority acting as if the rules don't apply to them. To the extent that I am enthusiastic about equality - that's the issue that concerns me. If you're going to make a whole bunch of dumb-ass rules that the plebs are required to obey, then you should be made to obey them too.
Perhaps we'd then have fewer dumb-ass rules.
Well, thanks for the admission I guess!
This is just such a stupid argument. Race and geographical origin (assuming by that you just mean residence, and not place-of-birth) are not even remotely similar, even if neither reflect individual merit. Race is always an invidious factor. There's a reason that there have never been civil rights marches protesting the fact that people from Alabama get in-state tuition at Alabama state colleges while people from Georgia are charged higher prices, while hundreds of thousands of people marched against racial discrimination and millions supported legislation against it.
There's a reason that the federal government, states, and cities have laws forbidding racial discrimination in public accommodations and employment but not against most of the other factors that are taken into consideration in college admissions.
It's only "invidious" because you don't like seeing Black and Hispanic people going to college. Why else? You don't say.
yeah, it's not like the NFL, NBA, MLB choose new potential employees in an order from First to Last, I know Medical Screw-els do, as I think they enjoyed telling me I was selected from the "Alternate" list.
Frank
The E-lite (Pronounced “E-Light”) Institution I attended, the University of Auburn (and their Sports Teams are the “War Eagles” like with “Fent-a-nol” I’ve given up trying to get you Rubes to say it correctly),
increased their Asian and Afro-Amurican enrollments in 2024, maybe Minority students prefer a warmer climate and hotter chicks, can you say “Ass-simulation”??
Frank
Flip a coin. Heads secretary of Education DeSantis gives Yale, Princeton, and Duke a legal enema and yanks their federal funding. Tails Harris accuses all the other schools of racism.
"secretary of Education DeSantis"
Maybe AG.
secretary of Education would be Chris Rufo
best thing would be to disband the Departments of Ed-jew-ma-cation, (along with Energy, Health/Human Services, Transportation, Labor, Homeland Security, Veterans Affairs, unlike Rick "Oops" Perry, I can count higher than 3) none of which do anything productive in their respective areas and mainly make things worse. I present to you Secretary of Transportation Pete Booty-Judge.
Frank "Department of Fucking Things Up? is Jimmuh Cartuh still breathing?"
What this really shows is the stupidity of trying to define and control bigotry with laws. The rule of law is supposed to mean laws which can be understood and obeyed. When laws are so murky that no one can actually understand them, and when learned judges can spend years arguing over them and still not agree on what they mean, the laws have become nothing but tools for the rule of men.
Better to just drop all those laws and let the bigots come out of the closet for all the world to see. Then the woke racists can rejoice in their bigotry, the KKK racists can rejoice in their bigotry, and everybody else can get on with their lives and ignore all the bigots.
There's nothing "murky" about the law here, these particular universities understand the law and the court rulings quite well.
They're just determined to violate them.
The murkiness is self-evident in how long these laws have been on the books and been argued about and seen split decisions, and started a new cycle. If the laws were clear, none of that would happen.
If the laws were clear and the universities wanted to obey them, none of that would happen.
The problem is that the laws were clear, and the universities were determined to defy them.
When appeals courts split after years of study and discussion, over and over, no. The laws are not clear.
So willful misreading and defiance means the law is unclear? Contested sure but not unclear.
Brett, arguing things are super clear it's just that everyone is bad faith libs.
At odds with the lets cancel all the laws guy.
Love to see it.
Was Brown wrongly decided?
The laws aren't murky. And the U.S. has very successfully defined and controlled bigotry (assuming you mean actual actions and not mere thoughts) with laws.
This argument doesn't get any less dumb the more times you say it. People are not microchips; one cannot write code that resolves all aspects of a given situation.
I see they focus on matriculation rates, not acceptance rates. Wasn't the SCT case aimed at the latter?
One possible explanation would be that the schools admitted fewer black/hispanic students, but offered those accepted more generous financial aid packages than their competitors.
Another would be that they figured out non-racial criteria (like low performing high schools) that overlapped with prohibited racial criteria and used those factors to boost admissions decisions.
There is some possibility on both those fronts: Universities have been pretty open about offering racially discriminatory financial aid programs, they scarcely even bother to hide doing it. And there certainly have been efforts to base admissions on ‘under-served’ locations that just happen to line up with racial demographics.
But I think it’s probably the usual “holistic admissions” dodge, where you make sure to get a picture of the applicants, and then claim to be using sufficiently ambiguous admissions criteria that nobody can prove you're informally just running a quota based on the photos. These folks aren’t actually ashamed enough about racially discriminating to bother doing anything fancy.
" . . . running a quota based on the photos."
Since we're talking about financial add right now, I think they use zip codes and not photos.
And that's a valid way to support underprivileged folks.
Zip codes seem kind of non-specific. There is a lot of economic and other diversity within zip codes. Consider, for example, that you might be assuming the resident of Section 8 housing in an upscale area is well off. If you care about income or net worth, look at income and net worth.
Another is that they decided to make up for SFFA by admitting fewer (overwhelmingly white) legacy applicants.
I was one of 2 Jews in my med school class of 70, but being Alabama, probably was still "Overrepresentation", of course with an Irish last name, I was the only one who knew I was a MOTT. Didn't "Come out of the Sin O Gogue" until 3rd year when probably 1/3 of the Attendings were "In my Tribe" (HT N. Merchant). It didn't help my class ranking at all.
Frank
It's really quite entertaining when you write posts that seem tailored to appear on future LSATs, David. Reading them takes me back to my test-prep days.
Question: What assumption is necessary to support the inference that the unchanged year-on-year matriculation rate of Black students at three of several elite universities is "suspicious"?
Question: This is an inaccurate summary of what Starr has actually written for what reason?
Question: What assumption is necessary for this inference to be a valid one?
David, I know you're a smart guy. Your writing on racial/ethnic categorizations in the law is usually free of this kind of sloppy reasoning. I would recommend you not allow your passion on the subject to be infected with the same shitposting tendencies you display whenever writing about Israel.
"Question: What assumption is necessary to support the inference that the unchanged year-on-year matriculation rate of Black s[tudents at three of several elite universities is “suspicious”?"
How about, "the universities in question asserting in an amicus brief that they couldn't possibly have the same amount of racial diversity without using racial preferences?" Or, "the statistical odds of dramatically changing one's admissions criteria for a given demographic of students, but winding up with the exact same percentage, is extremely low?" Better yet, combine them.
How about, “the universities in question asserting in an amicus brief that they couldn’t possibly have the same amount of racial diversity without using racial preferences?”
This would not be a credited response. A claim made by a group of universities in an amicus brief has no causal bearing on whether Black students apply, or are accepted, to any particular university.
Or, “the statistical odds of dramatically changing one’s admissions criteria for a given demographic of students, but winding up with the exact same percentage, is extremely low?”
This would be closer to a credited response. The problem is that it’s factually unsupported in this case.
We are considering a group of universities, all of which had different admissions criteria pre-SFFA, and so would have to make different changes to their admission criteria post-SFFA, if any. Some may have gone only so far as SFFA required; some may have gone further. (Your contention, of course, is that a few did not go far enough.) With all the variables at play, and no data on how many “elite” universities we’re considering, the number of students involved, or their objective characteristics, I don’t think we have any basis for saying that the relatively unchanged rates of Black matriculation at three cherry-picked universities is so statistically improbable as to support an inference of shenanigans.
Put another way – consider all those schools where Black matriculation has dropped since SFFA. Why wouldn’t that support an inference that those schools are now improperly considering race – to Black students’ detriment? You don’t seem at all concerned about that possibility.
To anticipate your response: I’d expect you to say, “We generally have a sense of how qualified applicants to these universities are, including subcategories of applicants like Black applicants, and so can make some predictions about what we would expect a truly race-neutral set of admissions criteria to yield on a population-wide basis.” Right, exactly. It’s that kind of data we’re missing, for the inference you’d prefer to draw.
Some additional points to consider, some of which are made by others, some not:
1. Princeton has always had lower Hispanic numbers than other Ivies, and still does. To say that it hasn't changed much is not saying anything. It's harder to get in there if you are Hispanic
2. None of this discussion has touched on the "lived experience" piece of things. The types of students who are savvy enough to go to these schools are also savvy enough to write essays about the hardships they have endured due to [x]. The school values how the students handled these hardships.
3. The California schools somehow figured this out years ago. Maybe these schools were just better at implementing the model that those schools adopted.
4. Someone mentioned aid being better. Well, it IS better, esp. at Princeton, but Yale ain't too shabby. To the extent the schools are selecting for first gen (which they are), underprivileged (which they are), then they will be better at matriculating than, say Penn and Cornell, where they aid is crappy by comparison.
5. As someone else noted, there is a HUGE assumption that only the "top" students with the "top" scores get in and that should favor Asians. I am here to tell you that that's false. My Hispanic child had a near perfect SAT and got in to exactly one Ivy. All the others said no, not even a waitlist. There are apparently enough Hispanics with sufficiently high test scores to fill these quotas, and if they drop from 1500 to 1450 (which is fine, as it's better than test optional as a floor), there will be MORE THAN ENOUGH qualified students to meet whatever student body they want.
6. Schools want geographic diversity. Are races distributed equally across the country? The race & ethnicity breakdown may be affected simply due to the number of states they are drawing from.
7. There's no analysis here of majors. Do certain races pick certain majors? Schools need to fill all the departments, not just engineering, and that means that there may be a lot less competition in some areas and the racial makeup of applicants may be very different.
Just some food for thought. Maybe they used racial preferences. Or maybe they didn't care quite as much about the things that people who thing the racial makeup should look a certain way care about.
the universities in question asserting in an amicus brief
A strongly worded prediction made in an amicus brief? That's a mighty thin reed to base this accusation on.
I'm not going to bother to dig up the amicus brief because I don't trust David enough to feel the need. I'm confident that he's misrepresenting it. I suspect that the premise of the schools' statement is that the Court would prohibit the use of race entirely, which is far from what the Court actually did.
The amicus brief (which is linked in the post) contains a section titled, "C. Petitioner’s Race-Neutral Proposals Would Not Serve Amici’s Interest in Diversity." The contents of that section are consistent with Prof. Bernstein's characterization.
So you made me click into it, and of course, I was right and you’re one of David’s useful idiots. Why post such an easily verifiable lie?
Then there’s this whole paragraph.
This is exactly what the Court went out of its way to reassure universities that they could continue doing. They don’t have to “wholly ignore” race if an applicant raises it in their application as an important aspect of their background.
Once again, I’m exactly right, and you buffoons are at best misreading these things through your own biased lenses. But given David’s propensity to do so, I have no problem at all attributing it to bad faith on your parts. Straight up evil.
Page 19 of the amicus brief:
timal means of creating a diverse student body—and
thereby achieving Amici’s educational objectives—
involves a limited consideration of race and ethnicity in
admissions. By the same token, using exclusively raceneutral approaches to admissions decisions would
undercut Amici’s efforts to attain “the benefits of
diversity” they seek. Fisher II, 579 U.S. at 385.
Petitioner argues that “real diversity” would not decline
under its preferred admissions system, Pet. Br. at 70,
but Petitioner is wrong.
The record bears this out. As the district court
concluded in the Harvard trial, the evidence before the
court “convincingly establish[ed] that no workable raceneutral alternatives [would yield] the level of racial
diversity … necessary” to achieve Harvard’s
educational goals. 20-1199 Pet. App. 209. In particular,
the record showed that the race-neutral alternatives
proposed by Petitioner would lead to a near 33%
reduction in the number of African American students
admitted, absent other admissions policy changes that
would “result in a significant decline in the strength of
Harvard’s admitted classes across multiple dimensions,
including its potential for academic and scholarly
achievement.” Id. at 220.
Those findings are consistent with the experiences of
other institutions that have adopted race-blind
admissions
Perhaps you missed the word “exclusively” in that quote?
You’re not helping yourself, David, by doubling down on your lie. Anyone can read your post and the amicus brief and see that you misrepresented it in two distinct ways.
Also, I know this is a outright lie on David's part, just from memory!
Second, each of these schools signed an amicus brief to the Supreme Court stating that there was no way no they could possibly achieve similar racial diversity as in the past without using racial preferences.
They stated they couldn't achieve similar racial diversity while holding other variable constant like test scores. Maybe they decided to let some of the other variables float in order to maintain diversity. Eh David, too stupid to think of that?
On the other hand, I see no argument in the brief that answers this description.
God damn, liars all of you! Paragraph fucking two!
Look, they can assert all they like that it's impossible to properly educate a student body that doesn't match their racial quotas. There's no reason anybody should take that sort of nonsense seriously.
Sure, but that doesn't mean David and Noscitur aren't liars.
Harvard (and Yale) have "educational goals." One of them is a diverse student body. They didn't say, as David claimed, that "there was no way they could possibly achieve similar racial diversity." They only claimed that they would have to sacrifice other goals in order to do so.
Maybe Harvard decided to sacrifice diversity, and Yale decided to sacrifice test scores, or pay more out in financial aid, or admit fewer legacies, or admit more basketball players and fewer lacrosse players. Who knows what tradeoffs different schools decided to make.
But David's addled brain is so determined to find bad faith on the part of university administrators that it's incapable of even considering these possibilities. So, he has to lie about what they said in an amicus brief in order to maintain his delusions.
Racial discrimination doesn't become an "educational goal" just because an educational institution wants to racially discriminate.
I mean, diversity simply is an educational goal of these institutions. Maybe you don't like it, but denying it just reveals your ostrich-nature.
It's really more of a social justice goal than an educational goal.
"Question: What assumption is necessary to support the inference that the unchanged year-on-year matriculation rate of Black students at three of several elite universities is “suspicious”?"
Obviously the assumption is that these particular universities had, like the others, been running a racially discriminatory quota system. Now, why would we think that? Because,
"Second, each of these schools signed an amicus brief to the Supreme Court stating that there was no way no they could possibly achieve similar racial diversity as in the past without using racial preferences."
That does seem to be an admission that they were presently using racial preferences, doesn't it?
Now, why would we think that? Because,
Brett, yet again positing bad faith based on 'Because.'
Yes, because followed by evidence.
They came right out and said in a legal filing that they couldn't maintain the numbers without racial discrimination. Then they maintained the numbers.
This is evidence that they'd continued to engage in the racial discrimination they had confessed to being engaged in.
Brett: "Reality is precluded by claims made in legal filings."
Nah. They couldn't do it while competing against Harvard. With Harvard out of the competition thanks to the Supreme Court, maybe they can do it. All 3 of those schools are likely back-up choices for fully Harvard-qualified applicants who understand most applicants like them are destined losers in the Harvard admissions lottery.
Now, THAT is something like an argument. At least the posited effect is in the right direction.
Though it's still suspicious that it exactly compensated for the end of the quota.
It's always a reasonable suspicion, when you say you've abolished the quota, and the numbers don't budge at all, that you're lying.
Harvard is the safety school for those who couldn't get into Princeton.
I understand Brett not understanding how you should take predictions averred in legal filings.
That Prof. Bernstein is on the same page as Brett is not a great look.
Maybe you're the one having trouble understanding the difference between "iron clad proof", on the one hand, and "grounds for suspicion", on the other.
Oh, Brett.
You’ve NEVER made a distinction between grounds for suspicion and ironclad proof.
Above, you’ve already speculated yourself into a whole story about what these universities are plotting and doing.
But pretending you're a normal person, no what people predict in an amicus brief is not cause for suspicion when that doesn't turn out. That's just lawyering.
UNC cpuld npt maintain a 100% White student body without segregation.
Not that I needed more evidence of this, Brett, but this laughably demonstrates your total inability to parse the logical structure of an argument.
I'll try to spoon-feed this for you (and other MAGA heads too blinkered by the race angle to think straight):
What must be true, for this inference to be valid?
The answer is: The percentage of Yale's class that is Black would be different, if they were not considering race as part of the admissions process.
Now, what reason do we have to believe that to be the case? What would we need to know about Yale's admission criteria, the applicant population for the relevant year, and in particular the Black students that were admitted?
What you’re ignoring is the long list of schools where, when they stopped considering race, the numbers changed.
And you’re failing to explain why anybody would have bothered to run an explicit quota just in order to generate the exact same numbers they’d have gotten without one.
Is it theoretically possible that the quota had just, coincidentally, at these three schools and no others, been replicating the exact admissions numbers they’d have seen if they hadn’t admittedly been racially discriminating?
Sure, it violates no law of physics. It’s just wildly improbable to the point where nobody would credit it unless they were just determined to deny the obvious.
Numbers will not regress to the mean every single year in every single institution.
Or maybe they have added some other criterion that's a confounding factor. (First time college goers perhaps - correlates with minority groups).
What you want is a quota, but for whites and Asians. That's what you're insisting on.
You know, to make sure there's not discrimination going on.
What you’re ignoring is the long list of schools where, when they stopped considering race, the numbers changed.
I'm not "ignoring" anything. I'm just not supplying necessary assumptions when they're not supported by evidence or argument. Which is something you do all the time, so I understand why this is difficult for you.
Again: Why should we assume what happened at other schools should happen identically at Yale?
And you’re failing to explain why anybody would have bothered to run an explicit quota just in order to generate the exact same numbers they’d have gotten without one.
I really get sick of this type of response. "You have failed to rebut an argument I haven't adequately supported in the first place." Never mind the strawmanning and equivocating here.
Is it theoretically possible that the quota had just, coincidentally, at these three schools and no others, been replicating the exact admissions numbers they’d have seen if they hadn’t admittedly been racially discriminating?
Again, you supply the assumptions when the facts are not evidence. David himself does not even allege this. Read the goddamn OP, Brett; David is far more careful in his factual assertions than you can bring yourself to be. None of these schools had "the exact admissions numbers" they'd had previously. Only Black matriculation remained steady. At three schools out of however many. That is what David is pointing to as "suspicious."
Your responses are painfully stupid, Brett.
The other flaw is the one Ridgeway pointed out. This number
is different than this number
and there are many internal and external forces that influence the former given the latter, and which SFFA doesn't implicate.
Yet another flaw is assuming that the applicant pool was unchanged. Universities can recruit whoever they want. Maybe these three schools read the tea leaves and boosted their minority recruitment efforts, so they have way more Black and Hispanic applicants on the front end.
Yeah, I echo the WTF's around here.
No proof of any actions taken, just not the statistical outcome you would expect.
To police to a statistical expectation of worse minority enrollment is just a reverse quota, Prof. Bernstein.
A DOJ investigation [by a Trump appointed] AG seems appropriate
I went to a Top 10 law school. Most of my white peers had at least 170. The black students had 160-162. They belonged at shit schools like Hastings where Cums a lot attended, which means she probably had a 150 and belonged at Burger King.
No, you did not. LOL.
Yes, I did. I got a 177 on the LSAT after studying for 3 weeks, LOL
Also doubtful.
Since you’re evidently an impostor, I’ll fill you in on the gives: most law students would not give away their insecurities by referring to their school’s rank as “T10.” They’d use standard breakdowns like “T14”, “T6,” “HYS,” and the like, which don’t as obviously signal that you went to the lowest-ranked school in the group.
Similarly, a 177 LSAT is an objectively good score. If you’re saying that you got a 177 LSAT but went to an at best T10 school suggests a serious error in judgment most law students wouldn’t make, or an underwhelming undergraduate performance.
Finally – even if one were to credit your 177 LSAT claim and T10 law school rank, the most plausible narrative would be something like: “I pulled the genius move of getting a full ride at a lower-ranked school, and now I’m quite happy in my solidly midlaw career.” Which, again, is the sort of pathetic story most people wouldn’t be eager to share.
You're an idiot. One, I typed T10 to not give too much information on the internet. The T14 thing is the type of BS you would only read on Autoadmit or Abovethelaw. The latter went to shit after Elie Mystal, an angry and stupid unqualified black, took over for the eminently clever David Lat.
Two, if you actually knew anything, you'd know that many people with 177 LSATs end up at schools in the Top 10 and not Top 6. They get Biglaw jobs very easilyi, not Midlaw jobs.
Three, I no longer practice law.
One, I typed T10 to not give too much information on the internet.
And what I am saying is that "T10" gives out precisely the kind of information you think you're obscuring.
The T14 thing is the type of BS you would only read on Autoadmit or Abovethelaw.
No, it's not. It's a colloquial way of referring to a group of schools with national reach, at least when the T14 was relatively stable from year to year. It may be less relevant these days, but certainly (if you remember Autoadmit) it was relevant during your time.
The latter went to shit after Elie Mystal, an angry and stupid unqualified black, took over for the eminently clever David Lat.
Such an odd veer. Autoadmit... AbovetheLaw... to a racist swipe at Mystal? We weren't even in the neighborhood.
Two, if you actually knew anything, you’d know that many people with 177 LSATs end up at schools in the Top 10 and not Top 6.
I seem to have acknowledged that people sometimes do make that decision, yes.
They get Biglaw jobs very easilyi, not Midlaw jobs.
Probably. But we don't seem to be talking about you, do we?
Three, I no longer practice law.
Disbarred, huh?
If you were really smart you'd have gone into something more lucrative
I did.
Maybe Yale, Princeton, and Duke figured out that with Harvard's admission policies under legal attack, there would be a surfeit of especially-qualified blacks looking to apply elsewhere. On that premise, it might not have been hard to figure out how to make admissions hay at Harvard's expense.
Also, except for a demand that the judicial system arbitrarily penalize blacks on the basis of race, what method can Bernstein suggest to redress this horrifying indulgence of talented black people?
Hm, except for a demand that the judicial system arbitrarily penalize blacks on the basis of race, what method is available to stop Yale, Princeton, and Duke from arbitrarily penalizing non-blacks on the basis of race?
Maybe just, oh, ceasing to arbitrarily penalize ANYBODY on the basis of race?
Sounds like Brett wants a Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act but for schools.
Sounds like he wants to get there via Constitutional mandate rather than legislation.
And he he puts blind faith in the rest of the admissions process as put out by these same schools as meritocratic perfection.
Racial outcomes aside, this is more inchoate based paranoia than an actual thesis.
Sounds like I think the EPC applies to all government agents, including private schools that accept even one dime of government money, even indirectly. Wasn't that what Hillsdale was told?
I do think people actually trying to be color blind will probably be more successful at not discriminating than people who set out to discriminate, sure. That seems reasonable to me.
EPC requires an inspection and/or a preclearance regime?
That is some impressive legislating from the bench!
Did I say the EPC mandates Section 2? No, I did not.
"what method is available to stop Yale, Princeton, and Duke from arbitrarily penalizing non-blacks on the basis of race?"
What judicially-mandated policy do you think the EPC mandates?
No. The EPC only applies to state actors. Hillsdale and Grove City were about statutory requirements, not the EPC .
These colleges do not think that they are subject to law regarding admissions, and probably got legal advice that the Scotus decision has giant loopholes.
Plenty of school districts in the '50's and '60's though they can preserve segregation.
Color me skeptical.
David, we already know that your starting premise is that these institutions are full of evil, lying libs acting in bad faith. Given that, what possible additional insight do you feel you can offer the discussion?
Speaking of lying and bad faith, you claim to have read the amicus brief, but somehow missed this:
timal means of creating a diverse student body—and
thereby achieving Amici’s educational objectives—
involves a limited consideration of race and ethnicity in
admissions. By the same token, using exclusively raceneutral approaches to admissions decisions would
undercut Amici’s efforts to attain “the benefits of
diversity” they seek. Fisher II, 579 U.S. at 385.
Petitioner argues that “real diversity” would not decline
under its preferred admissions system, Pet. Br. at 70,
but Petitioner is wrong.
The record bears this out. As the district court
concluded in the Harvard trial, the evidence before the
court “convincingly establish[ed] that no workable raceneutral alternatives [would yield] the level of racial
diversity … necessary” to achieve Harvard’s
educational goals. 20-1199 Pet. App. 209. In particular,
the record showed that the race-neutral alternatives
proposed by Petitioner would lead to a near 33%
reduction in the number of African American students
admitted, absent other admissions policy changes that
would “result in a significant decline in the strength of
Harvard’s admitted classes across multiple dimensions,
including its potential for academic and scholarly
achievement.” Id. at 220.
Those findings are consistent with the experiences of
other institutions that have adopted race-blind
admissions
Yeah, I quoted that same part myself up above in exposing your lies. What's yer point?
Words to note:
* exclusively
* absent other admissions policy changes