The Volokh Conspiracy
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Kansas Prof Removed after Viral Video of Classroom Remarks
A health sports instructor at the University of Kansas is out of a job after a video clip of his in-class behavior went viral. The university's statements do not inspire confidence, even though the professor might well have been out of bounds.
Libs of Tiktok posted a short clip of an instructor in a classroom at the University of Kansas. In the clip, he seems to say in the middle of a class session, "There are going to be some males in our society that will refuse to vote for a potential female president because they don't think females are smart enough to be president. We could line all those guys up and shoot them. They clearly don't understand the way the world works." Suddenly remembering that he is being recorded, he then adds, "Did I say that? Scratch that from the recording. I don't want the deans hearing that I said that."
There is, of course, no context to the 32 second clip, though surrounding reporting suggests that the statement was made in the midst of a health sports class at some point this semester. The university announced yesterday that the instructor was under investigation, saying "His intent was to emphasize his advocacy for women's rights and equality, and he recognizes he did a very poor job of doing so." Today, the university announced that the professor had "left the university."
"The free expression of ideas is essential to the functioning of our university, and we fully support the academic freedom of our teachers as they engage in classroom instruction. Academic freedom, however, is not a license for suggestions of violence like we saw in the video," [Provost Barbara] Bichelmeyer said. "While we embrace our university's role as a place for all kinds of dialogue, violent rhetoric is never acceptable."
The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE) immediately issued a statement defending the professor. "The viral video shows an instructor making an off-handed joke—not communicating a serious intent to commit unlawful violence," [Graham] Piro said in a statement. "That's protected speech, and people advocating that the instructor be punished for his expression are advocating for the erosion of the First Amendment." Today, FIRE pointed out that the classroom statement could not credibly be viewed as a "true threat." As a consequence, FIRE asserts it is protected by the First Amendment and the instructor should be immune from adverse employment consequences for his actions. [The Academic Freedom Alliance has not made any statement on this matter, and I speak for myself alone here.]
I think the situation is more complicated that FIRE has so far made out, but that Kansas is focusing on the wrong issue. The core problem is not one of "violent rhetoric" and whether or not this speech is an example of a true threat. The core problem is one of unprofessional classroom behavior.
As it happens, I discuss such a scenario in You Can't Teach That! I argue there that traditional academic freedom principles and government employee speech doctrine as it applies to university professors should be understood to protect controversial classroom speech that is both germane to the class and professionally competent. Faculty speech in the classroom that is neither germane nor competent, however, is unprotected, and professors can be properly disciplined for such speech. For example, a chemistry professor who spends part of her class time stumping for Kamala Harris or an astronomy professor who instructs her students that the moon is made of green cheese is operating outside the bounds of academic freedom or First Amendment protections and can properly be disciplined. An African-American history professor who spends class time propounding critical race theory, on the other hand, should be understood to be operating within those protections.
But what about the Kansas sports health professor. The question is less about the violence of the political rhetoric than the fact of the political rhetoric. From the book:
Some academic disciplines have relatively well-defined boundaries regarding their subject matter, but others might be much more capacious such that it is less clear what topics might not be germane to a given class discussion. A lecture on early nineteenth century American literature might be expected to roam further afield than a lecture on thermodynamics. Allowances must likewise be made for speech that is non-germane from a subject matter perspective but that is apposite from a pedagogical perspective. Professors who tell jokes to help build community and sustain interest might be engaging in speech that is non-germane when taken in isolation but that makes sense in context. Professors pushing such boundaries no doubt owe the students an obligation not to be unnecessarily controversial. Jokes, asides, illustrations, and analogies should not themselves become a source of tension. A professor who "livens up" his lectures with a running series of acerbic political comments is not off the hook for introducing unnecessarily controversial material into the class simply because he finds his own remarks witty, just as courts have not been impressed with professors who aver that their sexually lewd remarks or crude language in class are just part of their teaching technique. Education is a social endeavor and professors cannot be expected to robotically stick to a script, but frequent digressions into tangential topics of conversation risk crossing the boundaries of academic freedom, especially when those digressions are contentious.
The question at hand is whether an instructor in a health sports class should be trying to "emphasize his advocacy for women's rights and equality" and encourage his students to vote for Kamala Harris. The answer to that question is probably "no," and it really does not matter whether he did a good job in his advocacy or a poor job or used violent rhetoric or some other form of rhetoric. A state university has both the authority and the responsibility to make sure that professors in its classroom engage in professionally appropriate speech and do not abuse their captive audiences by engaging in professional misconduct. Professional misconduct can get a professor disciplined, and even fired. A professor has no right to commandeer his health sports class in order to engage in political advocacy.
The Kansas instructor was at best dancing on the line, even if this single episode might not justify harsh discipline. But university officials should at least be asking the right questions about what is at issue in the case.
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I notice now that Kamala's losing ground theres been a huge uptick in the 'because sexism from evil men narrative. Keep doubling down guys!
Kamala is losing ground? Not sure what you're looking at considering the polling average has been remarkably consistent for months.
He's looking at reality. hbu?
LOL.
The reality is she's been holding a slight lead for several weeks. She hasn't lost ground.
1. that's baloney, according to what I have read. Maybe my news sources are biased;
2. let's bookmark this and come back to it after the election. 🙂
That is impossible.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2024/09/19/the-teamsters-saving-democracy-by-being-undemocratic/
The non-germain and professionally incompetent exceptions to the first amendment? At some point you guys should just admit that you don't support academic freedom.
I don't think "academic freedom" encompasses the Chemistry Prof taking time out in class to expound on Byzantine History. Unless it's a specifically chemical bit of Byzantine History. Or the Sports guy expounding on Entomology. Which is not to say that these folk shouldn't chatter about whatever they like out of class. But in class, I want my full money's worth of Sport in the sports sessions, and Chemistry in the chemistry sessions.
I wouldn't fire someone for one or two little transgressions, but after a while, if you want to teach Byzantine History you need to either apply for that job, or do it in your own time.
Why wouldn't it? The first amendment protects teaching Byzantine History just as much as it protects teaching Chemistry. And if an Astronomy Professor thinks the moon is made out of green cheese, why wouldn't the first amendment protect her right to say so?
First Amendment doesn't protect workers who don't do their job.
Yes, but many professors have argued for an exception to that rule for at least some professors' speech, and it's not clear what speech or why professors deserve special privileges.
Why not treat professors' speech the same as other government employees.
Oh, so now ALL government employees should be allowed to do anything but their job, and the First Amendment protects them?
Walk into the DMV or post office, the clerks are all talking to each other, refusing to help you, and they can't be fired because ... First Amendment?
"Oh, so now ALL government employees should be allowed to do anything but their job, and the First Amendment protects them?"
How about the other way around?
Incompetent professors (and DMV employees) should be fired. But that should be judged by their outcomes, not by any individual statements they make in class. The statements are protected by the First Amendment even if they have no educational value. Who cares if a chemistry professor teaches his students about Byzantine History as long as they learn their chemistry? I think there’s lots to be said for professors attempting to put their subject in a larger context and talk about other things than strictly chemistry chemistry chemistry.
[Sorry Twelve Inch, you get the reply even though it’s really addressed to Stupid.]
I have some sympathy with this, at least in theory. If you own an auto repair servicing business, you want the mechanics to do a good job, efficiently. You probably don't mind if they spend some time talking about repairing cars. That's training. And you probably don't mind if they spend a small amount of time talking about the Yankees pitching problems.
But how much yacking about which subjects is OK, is a matter of judgement, and the judgement belongs to the employer.
No different for private universities.
But when we come to government owned auto repair businesses, or universities, if 1A constrains the employer from taking into account what employees talk about, and for how much of the working day, in determining whether they're doing a good job or not, then we have hit upon one of the many reasons why the government sector is woefully inefficient compared to the private sector.
In any event I think TiP's point is that if there's no "employer sets the rules" 1A override for on the job speech, the override must apply equally to government employed auto mechanics, just as much as to government employed teachers.
Why? Mechanics and teachers seem to be trying to do different things, especially in the use of speech.
I think you're missing the point. Which is that whatever the employer (or you) might think of the value of off topic mechanic-speech, as against off topic teacher-speech, there's no hint in the 1st Amendment that it could apply differently to different employees' off topic speech.
En passant, I'll note that mechanics' off topic speech, and teachers' off topic speech are, by definition, equally off topic and therefore no part of what they are "trying to do" - in the sense of what they are being paid to do.
And, obviously, what they are being paid to do is determined by their employer.
"there’s no hint in the 1st Amendment that it could apply differently to different employees’ off topic speech."
Unless you look at the function of the 1st Amendment, perhaps (hat tip Breyer).
Even if the government wants to discipline an employee for excessive gabbing on the job, it can't, according to the First Amendment, depend on what the gabbing was about.
I've never heard of a professor getting fired for saying "I do like me some crunchy pretzel sticks" in class. So if a professor gets fired for saying "I do like me some Democratic healthcare policy" in class, it sure as shit isn't because they were wasting class time.
Unless you look at the function of the 1st Amendment, perhaps (hat tip Breyer).
Sure, if we pay attention to our imagination rather than to the plain old text, we can find whatever we like in the penumbra. Breyer was indeed an expert imaginer. Not to mention a world class balancer, with eights selected judiciously for arriving at the preferred answer.
Function isn't imaginary, perhaps read Breyer's book on this (it's short!).
We are talking about the government as employer. To the contrary, the First Amendment generally permits the government to fire employees for anything they say while on the job. The exception for professors is based on “academic freedom.” But, it is hard to argue that academic freedom includes off-topic discussions (e.g., political discussions in calculus class).
What did Breyer have to say that is relevant to this debate?
To the contrary, the First Amendment generally permits the government to fire employees for anything they say while on the job.
Yes, and if you read carefully, that was my point. They're being fired for what they said.
Lee is trying to pretend like they're being fired not for what they said, but rather for wasting time. That doesn't fly.
Randal : Lee is trying to pretend like they’re being fired not for what they said, but rather for wasting time.
You are, alas, mistaken :
moi : But how much yacking about which subjects is OK, is a matter of judgement, and the judgement belongs to the employer.
Moreover my example explicitly distinguished talking about repairing cars and talking about the Yankees pitching problems, and suggestesd that the employer was likely to be more comfortable with more of the former and less of the latter.
But how much yacking about which subjects is OK, is a matter of judgement, and the judgement belongs to the employer. (Emphasis mine.)
You're making it worse, not better. The First Amendment doesn't allow, for example, a government policy that you can waste 20 minutes endorsing the Republican candidate but zero minutes endorsing the Democratic candidate. It doesn't even allow a policy that you can waste 20 minutes on car talk but only 10 minutes on sports talk.
"Not wasting time" is a distinct purpose from "avoiding unprofessional topics." If your purpose is to clamp down on time-wasting, there's no rational basis to distinguish between different off-topics. If your purpose is to "avoid unprofessional topics," then it doesn't matter how long you spend on those topics -- they shouldn't be discussed at all. It's not "10 minutes of racist politicking is ok, but no more than that."
You're trying to mix them together and say that the reason racist politicking is prohibited is because it's wasting time. No, that's not the reason, and you can tell because wasting the same amount of time in other ways isn't a problem.
I think you are wrong. An employer can rationally believe that car talk will be more helpful to the employees than sports talk.
More helpful? It's either helpful or it isn't, right? If it's at all helpful, it wouldn't be wasting time.
An employer can rationally believe either is helpful only up to a point that justifies some time away from core work. And, the employer can rationally believe the threshold for "up to a point" is different for cars versus sports.
Ok. Explain the rationalization. I'll be the judge.
The employer, assuming it’s a mechanic, might rationally think that the car talk is relevant to the job in a way that the sports talk isn’t, but still doesn’t want the employee spending forever talking about it. (Words mine.)
That’s just saying that one topic isn’t actually off-topic, and the employer values efficient service. I’ll grant that an employer can rationally have different standards for off-topic speech than on-topic speech while still limiting even on-topic speech for efficiency purposes. "Efficient service" is a third distinct purpose. An oil change shouldn’t take more than 5 minutes, so if an employee spends 10 minutes gabbing about oil changes, then yeah, that’s a problem, but it’s the same problem as them spending 10 minutes futzing with the torque wrench. It’s not really about the speech at all, it’s about getting the job done.
Anyway that wasn’t my hypothetical. In my hypothetical, the car talk and the sports talk are both off-topic. This is a literature class.
The employer thinks car talk will help people repair their cars and sport talk will make people happier. But, the employer thinks the former is more important (less likely to miss work), worthy of an extra 10 minutes.
It's a close call but I'll give it to you.
It still doesn't help Lee with his racist politicking.
Help me out with what Lee's problem is (I don't want to scroll through the posts to figure it out).
Well, really it all started with Stupid, but Lee picked up the mantle.
The idea is that, as you say, the government can act against employees (e.g. professors) who waste time on the job talking about off-topic subjects, and in particular, it can be more tolerant of some off-topic subjects than others. And therefore, the idea goes, that's how this case should be analyzed -- as the government disciplining the professor for wasting class time.
That's obviously dumb. The professor wasn't punished for wasting class time. he was punished for what he said. In the cases we've been debating, about car talk vs. sports talk, the employer doesn't really have anything against the speech, just against the time wasted. But in cases like the one at bar, the employer is acting againt the speech, not the 10 seconds of class time it took to utter.
I think it's fine for the employer to prohibit speech like in this case, for much the same reasoning as the OP, although I would prefer the employer to spell out, at least in broad strokes, the prohibited subjects, rather than inventing it ad hoc. But that's a quibble.
The reason it matters is that if the government is empowered to prohibit speech by subject on the theory that it's a waste of time, even when the time wasted is de minimis as here, that's pretty much a blank check to censor anything. Discussions about slavery that last more than 0.1 seconds are prohibited, but discussions about golf are allowed to go up to 10 minutes. No no no. The government can't pretend it's protecting class time when really it's just suppressing certain disfavored topics.
Firstly, outside the university context, the government as employer can fire someone for taking viewpoints while on the job the employer does not like. It's only academic freedom that might restrict the government from acting against professors who preach a disfavored viewpont while on the job. But even in the university context, the OP makes a persuasive case that the government can act against speech which is not germane.
However, if the government does so in this case but would permit similarly speech on the same topic that takes a different viewpoint, they could be violating the First Amendment (assuming academic freedom is protected by the First Amendment).
Do you think the government can suppress any topic they want for any reason or no reason? Just tell the chemistry professor "You can't talk about ammonia. Any mention of ammonia and you're fired."
Ammonia? No, that cannot be suppressed because it is germane.
What about, say, no mention of Antarctica or you’re fired.
At first blush, it would appear Antarctica is not germane, so he could be fired. But, it would be up to a judge to hear both sides and decide.
You seem to be in roughly the same sinking boat as Lee. He says “wasting time,” you say “germaneness.” Both are way too broad of rationales for prohibiting even fleeting mentions of a topic (as in the professor in this case). That would inevitably lead to arbitrary enforcement — firing teachers who mention “Texas” but not teachers who mention “California” for example. It’s both unworkable and extreme.
The rationale Keith gives for why the speech in this case is punishable is that it’s “professional misconduct” to subject a captive audience to politicking. Not solely that it isn’t germane, like Antarctica. You really think a university could fire a chemistry professor for saying “I’ve always wanted to visit Antarctica”…? That’s nuts.
You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't really believe your position is any different from mine or Josh's. Which Josh has explained clearly enough.
An employer has an interest in productivity.
(a) Some talking is of its nature likely to detract from productivity - eg urging your fellow workers out on strike or offending the Muslim members of the workforce by banging on about the foolishness of religion. The employer is likely to want zero of this stuff.
(b) Some talking will be harmless ipso facto, and may add to the morale and enthusiasm of the labor force, eg sports. Thus the employer may be happy with it in small doses, until it gets lengthy enough to detract from the actual job, by more than it adds to morale.
(c) Some talking will be helpful in much larger doses, eg that which involves the experienced workers sharing ther knowhow with the juniors. But even this will have limits because there are actual cars to be mended, or decades of Byzantine history to get through.
The employer's judgement on this can hardly be reduced to a comprehensive set of rules published in advance.
So what counts as "wasted time" is {y-x} where x is the gross loss of production caused by the yapping (the size of x being determined by the length of time) and y is the gross gain of production caused by the yapping. In the case of annoying the Muslim workers y is negative and so y-x is necessarily negative. In the case of the sports talk y may be positive and small, accommodating only a small value of x. In the case of helpful talk, y may be larger, accommodating a larger x.
Cases (a) and (b) constitute non-germane talk, but (b) is acceptable nevertheless - in small doses - because it has a (small) positive value. (c) is germane and hence acceptable in somewhat larger doses.
Is this difficult ?
The Kansas Prof's speech was type (a) - non -germane and liable to be offensive to some class members. Hence the employer reasonably wanted zero of it. However as others have suggested, this seems too trivial an incident to make a good firing case of itself (the violence angle was obviously hyerbole.) So unless the guy has a record - ie a large negative y - the employer reaction seems over the top.
The First Amendment protects non-governmental actions from the government. It doesn't define protections for public employees when they are on the clock -- or even off the clock; think of the Hatch Act -- or against private employers.
We can certainly make arguments about those cases based on free speech principles, but they need to stand on their own rather than relying on 1A jurisprudence as an applicable authority.
As a matter of precedent you're just wrong, there are many holdings that academic freedom is a "thing" under the 1st.
As a matter of precedent the question is unsettled.
Maybe you should read Garcetti v. Ceballos (2006) and Pickering (1968) and then let me know what precedent says. Vikram David Amar and Alan Brownstein wrote at length on the question fairly recently: https://www.minnesotalawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/AmarBrownstein.pdf
AAUP also agreed with me, at least as of 2007: https://www.aaup.org/our-work/protecting-academic-freedom/academic-freedom-and-first-amendment-2007
Maybe someone should re-read Ceballos, which involved speech by an Assistant DA. SCOTUS said that when a public employee makes statements pursuant to their official duties (as was the case with the ADA), the employee is not speaking as a citizen for 1A purposes, and the employee can face employer discipline. It is true that the Court expressly declined to opine if this framework should apply to “speech related to scholarship or teaching," but a future Court would presumably have to address why such a distinction should make a difference.
There is circuit court precedent in support of the First Amendment protecting the speech of professors under the doctrine of academic freedom.
Josh R: That particular case is rather fundamentally different from this incident. Heim was disfavored based on his academic stance, not for making off-topic and inflammatory suggestions in the middle of a class lecture. I don't think any appellate precedent anywhere would support what Lowcock said (and realized contemporaneously as something that was beyond the bounds of what the school would tolerate).
I agree with the OP. He could have been fired for being off-topic but not for an inflammatory suggestion (it was not a true threat). But, you made a stronger claim:
To the contrary in the Circuits that have so ruled, academic freedom is part of First Amendment jurisprudence.
"The First Amendment protects non-governmental actions from the government. It doesn’t define protections for public employees when they are on the clock "
Uh, from the source you cited: "However, many courts that have considered claims of academic freedom – including the U.S. Supreme Court – have concluded that there is a “constitutional right” to academic freedom in at least some instances, arising from their interpretation of the First Amendment."
"Speech by professors in the classroom at public institutions is generally protected under the First Amendment and under the professional concept of academic freedom if the speech is relevant to the subject matter of the course. See, e.g., Kracunas v. Iona College, 119 F.3d 80, 88 & n. 5 (2d Cir. 1997) "
"Why not treat professors’ speech the same as other government employees."
Could it be something about how the function and purpose of professors re speech is different than the same for police officers or sanitation workers?
Does the first amendment say anything about the function of the speaker?
No. Does it say anything about government speech not having the same protection as other speech? Does it say anything about true threats, or libel, or commercial speech? Should all speech be absolutely protected, with no exceptions at all?
We are firmly in the construction zone, like it or not.
"I don’t think “academic freedom” encompasses the Chemistry Prof taking time out in class to expound on Byzantine History. Unless it’s a specifically chemical bit of Byzantine History."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire
Good one. Somewhere in the disordered, dusty storerooms of what remains of my memory, I must have unconsciously dredged up a shadow of a recollection of that, prompting my "unless."
Honestly he got fired more because his superiors/colleagues probably agree with his opinions and he cast an uncomfortable spotlight on that rather than because they disagreed with his opinions.
Also I'm too lazy to look it up but he looks like one of those sideline/nontenured instructors who if you are familiar at all with academia get canned all the time at the drop of a hat for all sorts of reasons, most far less spectacular than this. Maybe cry over all those other people.
Does the legislature get to make findings about what speech can get someone fired for professional incompetence, or is it just administrators that make that decision?
This is the Orwellian use of the first amendment I've discussed before. This isn't about protecting the individual right of the professor to speak his mind. And it shouldn't be, since it's government speech.
Instead, you guys want to create an exception to the government speech exception in order to protect bureaucrats from being accountable to the electorate.
That's terrible, and anti-democratic.
As a matter of policy do you think it's best for legislators to determine what should be taught and how in colleges?
Absolutely not. Legislatures should have nothing at all to do with what is taught in colleges, or how.
Unless the legislature, or the state constitution, has been foolish enough to create government colleges. In which case, like in any other function of government, the legislature should specify what is to go on there.
Of course they might choose to underspecify, and leave many of the details to the employees. If that works well, great. But if it works poorly, in the opinion of the legislature, then they are quite entitled to return to the business of specifying what they want, somewhat more precisely.
A government function is not a workers’ co-operative.
Again, I'm not talking about "entitled" but rather best practices. But one should note that folks that think the entire existence of program X is "foolish" might not have a good faith idea about how best program X should be run.
Well best practice would be to hire sensible employees, give them sensible general guidelines, and monitor regularly to see whether you're getting what you're paying for.
But best practice certainly includes stepping in and interfering with the employees' conduct of affairs, not excluding firing them, if you're not getting what you're paying for.
As to the foolishness of program X and the performance of sceptics about the wisdom of X , you just blew up the whole idea of a "professional" civil service.
The civil service is supposed to execute the lawful directions of the President, whether it thinks those directions are wise or unwise. (And so. mutatis mutandis, for state and local governments.) Sure they can try to persuade the President that the policy is unwise, but when the President says - "Noted. Now shut up and implement my policy" they're supposed to get on and do it, as best they can.
I would happily advise the Governor of State Y that the best thing to do, state constitution permitting, would be to voucherize the whole school system, and privatize the state university. Solving any 1A questions at a stroke.
But if the Governor declined my advice then I'd advise him, as best I could, how to nudge the government schools and colleges towards some kind of approximation to common sense.
Your faith in the wisdom and statesmanship of politicians is pretty incredible.
The issue is that the equities here are not about getting what you pay for, but performative red meat. Cancel culture but rightishly, if you will.
Any decision about best practices needs to understand the real lay of the land.
[Note that what's institutional best practice, and what's implementation best practice, are two different things. The state needs to be the final decider when it comes to the institutions it has stood up, chartered, and funds. But that doesn't mean that authority can't be exercised abusively.]
"Your faith in the wisdom and statesmanship of politicians is pretty incredible."
As they say, democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried.
"abusively" is a lovely way to put it.
Here it means "contrary to the will of the employees of the institutions we have marched through."
The government institutions must be protected from the elected bits of the government at all costs. That's democracy !
I’m not defending the prof’s removal.
But I am noting that top-down state regulations aimed at owning the libs and nothing more have become a trend for ambitious Republican governors.
That is not good practice.
Also, fuck off with your ‘march through institutions;’ if you want to allege a conspiracy bring proof beyond ‘these people are to my left.’
And you last paragraph is a strawman. I guess you didn’t care for my more considered and moderate opinion so you had to put words in my mouth to comfort yourself that you were indeed standing against demons.
I wonder how Sarcastr0 would react if a professor had made a similar comment offensive to Harris? Actually I doubt anyone wonders.
Your charge of hypothetical hypocricy extra dumb this time because it ignores my very first line: 'I’m not defending the prof’s removal'
I confess I had no idea what your point was in saying "I’m not defending the prof’s removal" or indeed in the rest of your comment, so I ignored it. Your obfuscatory and tangential style works against lucidity, and at least as often as not I can't be bothered to engage with it.
However, I am puzzled by your insistence that you don't defend the Prof's removal. Why would you ? He's a lefty spouting lefty thoughts.
Riva speculates that if he was a righty spouting righty thoughts maybe you'd be OK with his firing. I confess I haven't paid any attention to the Amy Wax saga, so I haven't paid attention to any views you might have expressed on the subject.
Anyway there's nothing inherently dumb about Riva wondering whether you'd be announcing that you don't defend Professor Righty being fired for saying that you should vote Trump to keep illegal immigrants out, during his class on Molecular Biology.
(I'll note in passing that the administrators' ratio about violent rhetoric was just as silly as Prof Whittington says.)
I don't defend the Prof's removal means that I'm okay with his firing.
Riva is trying to posit a double standard, but I'm pretty consistent across the board.
I'm fine with Prof's removal, and hypothetical right-wing mirror Prof's removal, and with Wax's sanction as limited to her dealings with students.
Consistent. Riva's buffer must be full.
I don’t defend the Prof’s removal means that I’m okay with his firing.
To ordinary English speakers "I don't defend X" means "I do not support X" or at the absolute minimum "I do not wish to offer a justification for X."
The ordinary English speaker would say, if they were OK with the firing, "I'd defend the Prof's firing" - ie the precise opposite of what you said.
I hope this gives you a window into my difficuties with your obfuscatory style. It occurs to me that perhaps trans linguistics is an outgrowth of Sarcastro linguistics. Where to confuse readers, you say the opposite of what you mean.
This makes me think about the police. The legislature determines the laws the police are to enforce. But the legislature does not involve itself in how to go about enforcement: the police come up with that entirely on their own. I suppose sometimes a city council might ban high speed chases or whatnot.
1. Does the first amendment enact your preferred educational policy into the constitution?
2. It depends, right? A priori it might seem like the legislature might want to leave that to a different level of government.
But if that ends up with, say, science teachers in public schools teaching that the world is flat, then as a matter of policy it might be better for the legislature to adopt a "no teaching that the world is flat" policy.
And the idea that first amendment gives some other level of government the right to decide whether or not students are taught that the world is flat is nonsensical, the first amendment is an individual right, not a mechanism for government officials to run the government unconstrained by the legislature.
Ultimately, democracy requires that voters have the final say in what public school students are taught.
I think there is a reasonable distinction between K-12 and universities that gives some latitude to professors (on-topic and not outright false) beyond what the voters desire.
"The question at hand is whether an instructor in a health sports class should be trying to "emphasize his advocacy for women's rights and equality" and encourage his students to vote for Kamala Harris."
According to the clip, he doesn't encourage anybody to vote for Kamala Harris. He says men shouldn't avoid voting for women because they don't think a woman can be smart enough to be President.
Yeah the reason Kamala is disliked is because she's a woman. (What is a woman btw?). There is absolutely no other reason real or imagined anyone can possibly dislike her.
Amos, I'm sorry if something happened that made you more irascible than usual today, but the instructor said that Harris' sex would be the reason some men would refuse to vote for her, not that it was the only possible reason.
The instructor and many other dem operatives are bringing it up now as if it is a primary factor.
This is non-responsive to Voize's point.
You pointed to "There is *absolutely no other reason*" and when Voize called you out on it you shifted to "dem operatives are bringing it up now as if it is *a primary factor*." Absolutely no other reason=/=A primary reason.
You’re wasting your time. He simply bends any discussion into whatever partisan point he wants to make. It doesn’t have to actually be responsive to what anyone might be writing.
He said they should be lined up and shot.
He advocated mass murdering people for ideological reasons.
Something you seem to be tote's okay with.
He said men wouldn't vote for a woman because they thought women are too stupid to be president should be lined up and shot.
And I'm totes OK with hyperbole.
Yep, I'll believe that last statement, if you think the First Amendment protects people from not doing their job.
Do you think he should be fired if he spent the equivalent amount of time “not doing his job” because he had to pee, for example?
What if he spent it telling the class about his awesome weekend at Yellowstone?
You’re obviously not actually concerned about him “not doing his job.” You’re concerned about the specific viewpoint he expressed in this one particular statement. Please try to be less stupid, Stupid.
Is your theory then that sounding off on politics at work has the effect of constricting your urethra, so that you don't need to pee till you get home ?
Does this work when you're driving too ? Could be handy.
(Apparently some British politicos well known for their oratory always liked to orate with a full bladder, on the theory that it sharpened their game. )
A competent instructor should go to the restroom before or after class, unless they have some temporary condition that causes incontinence.
But great examples of what you consider to be morally equivalent cases! It reinforced what many of us have considered about your morality.
"What if he spent it telling the class about his awesome weekend at Yellowstone?
How do you know he hasn't?
Randal, bureaucrats love to act on the one singular thing when they are actually responding to a laundry list of things. If they didn't have the list of all the other things he'd said, this would be a reprimand.
I know of one case where UMass Physical Plant fired a very problematic employee for driving a university vehicle without a valid driver's license because that's real simple to prove (he got arrested) where the 50 other things would each be a fight with the union.
Only problem is that he eventually beat the charge on the grounds that the notice of revocation had gone to his old address -- and UM wound up paying him 2+ years of back pay & reinstating him.
Prove he wasn't doing his job. That he threw in additional commentary doesn't mean he didn't provide the service the students had paid for.
You want me to quote you over the past year about how you wanted others harmed?
Are you or the government paying him to post here?
Barry Hussein Osama said the same thing yesterday about Black Males not being ready for a Bee-otch POTUS, without the shooting part (Black Males can do that themselves)
It's amazing, but I think the DemoKKKrats nominated someone even more unlikeable than Hillary Rodman, (Poke-a-hontas is close)
Frank
A guy in a totally different position said something without the controversial part at issue here!
No Frank, B Hussein did not include the shooting part and that is particularly sensitive because we’ve had *THREE* attempts to assassinate Trump that we know about (the third was an Iranian plot the FBI foiled — they arrested someone).
In light of that, I’m not so sure this *isn’t* a real threat as defined by law. I’m thinking of US v Hart (2000) that parking a (then) yellow Ryder truck outside an abortion clinic was a criminal threat in light of the then-recent Oklahoma City bombing. that used a Ryder truck.
See: https://casetext.com/case/us-v-hart-31
Homework assignment:
Assume the professor had said men who don't think men should be allowed to play on women's teams should be lined up and shot.
Any difference in relation to the class?
Any difference in reading it as a threat?
Any difference in what action, if any, the administration should take?
Compare and contrast to the actual example.
I would not fire him for it, but I would explain that we do not shoot people for expressing political opinions. And then I would ask for an explanation of how he thinks the world works.
" . . . we do not shoot people for expressing political opinions."
Donald Trump on line one - - - - - - -
Yes, and the whole Democrat Party stands for prosecuting him for his opinions, and his candidacy.
Sure, it's his opinions and his candidacy, that's it!
Well, on the other hand, to be sure, it is actually his outstanding demonstration of how much better this country can be when democrats are not in charge.
Nobody thinks men should be allowed to play on women's teams. Duh. That's why they're called women's teams.
Just wake up Rip Van Winkle?
This is of course untrue.
If someone won the Tour de France using a car, people would complain that it's a competition for people on bicycles, not cars. The complaints would not be assuaged by arguing that a car is a kind of bicycle. And the complainers would be right. A car is not a bicycle, however much some folk might claim otherwise.
Likewise, someone with testicles is not a woman.
This fad for letting men compete in women's events has more or less run its course now. Most athletic organizations are now fleeing from the absurdity. In ten years hardly anyone will admit to having supported it.
I am unaware of anyone with testicles being allowed to compete in women's sports.
The rest of us don't live under a rock like you apparently do.
https://thenetline.com/lia-thomas-transition/
https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/67367157 for a much more defensible (but still debatable) case
Ha – it’s not remotely defensible or even debatable. The article confirms he’s got testicles !
The BBC article contains one of the ripest absurdities I’ve ever seen. It says “she” has differences of sex development (DSD) which cause an elevated level of testosterone. This is, to coin a phrase, complete balls.
He has 5-alpha-reductase deficiency. Which is a DSD which causes a male – ie a human with testicles – to have feminised genitals. It doesn’t affect the testosterone production of the testes, nor the take up of that testosterone in the rest of the body, nor the masculinisation of the body apart from the genitals.
The guy does not have “elevated testosterone” he has absolutely normal testosterone – for a guy. Which is what he is.
His DSD affects his genitals, it has no effect on his athletic performance.
I agree Semenya should not be competing in women’s Olympic sports (or at least should be required to take hjrmones that reduce her testosterone levels, I am agnostic on that wrinkle). However, your continued insistence on referring to her as “he” because she has testicles is offensive.
She was assigned female at birth and identitfies as female. So sure, for the purposes of elite athletics, she is male. But outside of that context, you are denigrating her for no good reason. That is, your continued insistence that “male” categorically refers to a person with testicles harms the dignity of many people for no good reason (and no, not accepting gender identity as real is not a good reason).
As you are aware we’ve done this before. Several times. I quite agree that it might be rude to approach a fat person and gratuitously call him fat. It would not be rude to have a private conversation with someone else and in the course of that describe the fat person as fat. Unless the someone else was his Mom.
In a discussion forum such as this one, where it is asserted by one poster that the fat person is in fact thin, it is not at all rude to push back with the reality that the fat person is indeed fat. Especially if the original poster is arguing that it is not the case that thin people weigh less than fat people, per unit of height.
The reason for insisting, in this sort of forum, that people with testicles are always and necessarily male is that male is, and always has been, a reference to sex. Even in the genderish universe, sex is the reference point - male gender refers to traits, behaviors etc that are typical of the male sex.
That some folk do not like to be the sex they are is unfortunate for them. But it is what it is. Likewise fat, except that with fat you can do something about it. With effort and/or drugs you can become less fat. Alas for the gender dysphoric you cannot, in the current state of technology, become less male. All you can do is cosmetic.
I have no difficulty at all with males presenting themselves as females, in appropriate contexts, if that makes them feel happy. But wishing does not make it so, and in a discussion about reality, reality has to take precedence over the risk of hurt feelings.
In Caster Semanya’s case, his sex is at the heart of the controversy, it is not incidental to it. Calling him “her” in a discussion about his sex would be stupid, and confusing. And confusing is the point, of course.
Of course I know we have had this discussion before.
It's only been that way because gender identity is a relatively new concept (about 60 years) and it has yet to be widely accepted. Your usage mereely indicates you don't accept gender identity. And while it is not as bad as using "male" to Semanya's face, it still denigrates her.
I still don't get why you can say "denigrate" without the mob coming after you.
"Your usage merely indicates you don’t accept gender identity."
Not so. My view is that there are examples of abnormal gender presentation that are not really gender dysphoria - eg which are an expression of anxiety or depression, or following a craze, or autogynephilia, or mere fraud.
But that does not exclude the possibility of genuine dysphoria, and consequently the possibility of an innate mental sense of one's sex, that may differ from one's actual sex. If there is such an innate sense of one's sex - which I repeat, I do not exclude - then as I never tire of pointing out here, secondary sexual characteristics are developed by a fallible, though not very fallible, production line. Consequently a mind that feels it is male, may exist in the occasional female body. And vice versa.
My usage is semantic parsimony, and clarity. Male and man and female and woman, and he and her etc, have always referred to sex. They still do for most speakers of English - including a goodly proportion of those who vogueishly (or fearfully) follow the New Usage, and have to catch themselves on the cusp, or even sometimes over it, of saying the "wrong" thing.
My proposition is that those folks who think gender is important and wish to refer to it in preference to referring to sex, should come up with their own words to describe the things they want to refer to, and not purloin the existing words that have a perfectly good and clear meaning.
I say purloining because the New Usage is not mere natural lingusitic drift, it is a deliberate and concerted attempt to confuse sex and gender, and ultimately to try to make it difficult to refer to sex at all. Thus even you - a relative moderate in this gender lutta insist that instead of saying male, I must say "biological male" or "biological man." But you do not insist that those who like the New Usage circumlocute male and man to "genderly male" of "genderly man."
I am of course grieved that my choice to employ the normal usage of words distresses you, but not sufficiently grieved to kowtow to the demand that I should not refer to someone's sex, when I feel that is appropriate.
A discussion about the sex of athletes seems to me to be one of those appropriate occasions.
Historical tradition is not a good reason to require a new word when cerebrotype is just as leigitimate as pheontype (or genotype).
If cerebrotype were to graduate from postulate to confirmed, consistent, reality, then it would merely be a subsidiary element of phenotype, just as is, say, blood type. The idea of introducing yourself with your blood type is an old Some Like It Hot joke, IIRC.
And even if cerebrotype's reality were confirmed, it would not be relevant to the designation of sex, any more than any other kind of sexually differentiated secondary characteristic. Or genotype.
Sex is a reproductive category, defined by a very specific part of the phenotype. That's why humans, like any animals, categorize each other by sex. Hump the wrong thing or be humped by the wrong thing and you're toast as far as the next generation is concerned.
As you correctly noted, humans only came up with the notion of gender, differentiated from sex, within the past couple of generations. It's hardly a vital issue. Which is why 99% of humans pay no attention to it.
You keep on begging the question that "male" refers to sex and there is no sex/gender differentiation. Gender identity is new because we have new data. It may not be a vital issue for 99%, but it is vital to 1% and no reason for the 99% to object.
You keep on begging the question that “male” refers to sex
It does when I, and the great majority of the population, use it. I understand that there are other folk who choose to use it in a different sense. I don't think this qualifies as "begging the question" it simply qualifies as me choosing my words. And I really don't think it's a minority usage in the population as a whole, though it might be on college campuses. Moreover even that minority uses male in the sense of sex whenever it is talking about any animals other than humans. The New Usage is a parochial corner (college campuses and maybe HR departments) of a parochial corner (humans among animals.)
and there is no sex/gender differentiation.
Not quite sure why you keep on insisting this. One more time :
But that does not exclude the possibility of genuine dysphoria, and consequently the possibility of an innate mental sense of one’s sex, that may differ from one’s actual sex. If there is such an innate sense of one’s sex – which I repeat, I do not exclude – then as I never tire of pointing out here, secondary sexual characteristics are developed by a fallible, though not very fallible, production line. Consequently a mind that feels it is male, may exist in the occasional female body. And vice versa.
It may not be a vital issue for 99%, but it is vital to 1% and no reason for the 99% to object.
I object on the grounds that I do not want to stop in mid sentence any time that the very commonly used words man, woman, boy, girl, male, female, he, him, his, himself, she, her, hers, herself etc pop into my head as the appropriate thing to say - slam on the brakes and construct an awkward circumlocution to avoid the risk of offending someone who I'm not talking to, and who isn't even present. And I particularly don't want to do it in the course of a rational argument, where the awkward circumlocution makes it harder to make the point I wish to make.
This seems like quite a chore. And since it's 99% of us having to do it, that's a good reason not to do it. Otherwise we're into let's move the milk out of the dairy, rather than taking the cat out.
Treating people with dignity is not a chore.
Everyone is quite tolerant of slip ups, Lee, as long as you're not an asshole about it. And it quickly becomes second nature.
I have no intention of even attempting to allow it to become second nature. It is a foolish and deliberately confusing usage, at worst a deliberate deceit and at best a white lie, to be used very sparingly, in the presence of the afflicted.
It is a foolish and deliberately confusing usage, at worst a deliberate deceit and at best a white lie, to be used very sparingly, in the presence of the afflicted.
Naw, you're just vice signaling.
Your dramatic invocations of bad faith and dishonesty don't hold water. Look more like weak cover for being an asshole culture warrior.
Luckily it probably won't come up for you in any actual interactions other than performing online.
He has a micropenis and undescended testicles, which means that he is a man whose male genitalia look like lady parts, and unfortunately he was raised as a female due to the confusion.
How far do you want to take your dignity thing? If a person with testicles identified as a person with ovaries, would it be offensive to say he has testicles? How is that different that calling a male who identifies as a female a male?
People don't identify as having ovaries. They identify as male and female. And hundreds of thousands of Americans have a gender identity that does not match their sex. They are the evidence for gender identity being real.
Fighting the hypo?
But in any event, just like men with gender dysphoria don't like referring to themselves as men or males, many don't like referring to their junk by the names of masculine body parts. So if a man with gender dysphoria refers to his testicles as "outer ovaries", do you think it is denigrating to say he has testicles?
No, but your hypo has no relevance to the debate.
Would it be offensive to say [s]he has testicles?
Well, it depends on why you’re talking about her testicles. If you’re outing her or mocking her, like, pointing at her and announcing that “She’s got testicles!” all the time, then that’s offensive. But mentioning the fact that she’s got testicles by itself isn’t offensive.
How is that different than calling a male who identifies as a female a
maleman?Because she isn’t a man. Gender-wise, she’s a woman. And that isn’t some choice she made along the way. It’s a diagnosis.
If you’re worried about how you’re going to define “woman” in your Congressional testimony, define it as “An adult human of the feminine gender.”
“Male” and “female” are in a state of confusion. I prefer to keep them focused on sex rather than gender. It solves a practical problem — we need words for sex and for gender. Rather than “biological male” or “cis-man” or “trans woman” we can just say “male” for sex. And “male” and “female” don’t come up much in casual conversation. They’re somewhat clinical anyway.
I think that works out pretty well. Sex is defined genetically and produces males and females. Gender is defined experientially and produces masculine men and feminine women. There’s a strong correlation between sex and gender, but not a definitional one.
Many leftists can't even acknowledge that there might be more than one point of view on this issue. That's why we might be forced to regulate what leftist teachers are allowed to teach kids in public schools.
Many leftists can’t even acknowledge that there might be more than one point of view on this issue.
On what issue? The consensus definition of words? I think it’s the right that’s being intransigent on that one. Which side asked for a definition as a gotcha during a Supreme Court nomination? Hint: yours.
I’m surprised that word meanings are the focus of all this contention. Who cares what words mean? Just use a different one. When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.
"I think it’s the right that’s being intransigent on that one."
How so? I generally see the left, not the right, demanding that certain words, pronouns, etc. be used.
Even on this thread, no one on my side hassled anyone for referring to Caster Semenya as "she", but the converse was not true.
Are you serious? It's pervasive!
Likewise, someone with testicles is not a woman.
Yeah the reason Kamala is disliked is because she’s a woman. (What is a woman btw?)
Calling him “her” in a discussion about his sex would be stupid...
those folks who think gender is important... should come up with their own words...
He has a micropenis... which means that he is a man
Testes maketh males.
Some might consider having XY chromosomes somewhat indicative of being male... Actually come to think of it, let’s hear your definition of male and female. Now’s your chance to prove you’re smarter than a S.Ct. justice.
When you grow up, you’ll learn somewhere along the line that women don’t have testicles.
And these are comments on a post that's not even about trans issues!
The left is saying, what's the big deal with calling them what they want to be called? It's the right that's throwing a fit about the sanctity of the definition of "woman" etc., and they can't possibly violate their sacred duty to only use gendered words the way God intended.
And these are comments on a post that’s not even about trans issues!
Says the guy who introduced the trans issue into the thread 🙂
Nice try.
Nothing trans-related about what Longtobefree's comment. He/she/it used "men" and "women" in the usual way - as references to sex.
You were the one who introduced the transy usage.
Nothing trans-related about Longtobefree's comment.
Nice try again. Whatever you think of his language, he referenced a trans issue for its controversial nature, dum dum.
'in the usual way' is a telling construction. Like when people used to compare being gay with being 'normal.'
Pretending trans isn't a thing is not a way to avoid brining up trans issues, it's a way to stumble into more of them.
Using man, woman etc to refer to someone's sex IS the usual way.
Stamping your foot and declaring what's normal is not a winner's position to be in.
I do very little foot stamping these days. But when someone else insists that the moon is made of cheese, I am liable to demur. Though less liable if the insister is under the age of six.
Also I predict, somewhat presumptively, that in the fullness of time, even trans women will prefer "male woman" to "trans woman." "Trans woman" is like "cancer survivor" or "retard" in that it unnecessarily focuses on a person's condition.
Still leaves the confusion - is a male woman a man who thinks he's a woman or the other way round ? That's why new words are preferable.
Since no one understands Greek or Latin anymore, I propose "andrego" for a gal who thinks she's a guy and "gynego" for a guy who thinks he's a gal.
Still leaves the confusion – is a male woman a man who thinks he’s a woman or the other way round ?
Uh, I explained it pretty clearly above. A male woman is genetic male of feminine gender in this rubric. Do try to keep up.
I propose “andrego” for a gal who thinks she’s a guy and “gynego” for a guy who thinks he’s a gal.
Obviously you’re missing the core point, probably intentionally. The words that are needed are everyday words for describing feminine gendered people on the one hand and masculine gendered people on the other. The end goal is that in everyday conversation, a trans woman and a cis-woman are addressed in the same way.
The reason for that goal is allow trans people to live a healthy and prosperous life without constant degradation.
So coming up with new words for trans people isn’t worth shit, unless you’re proposing that they be used for everyone, which is retarded. Are you going to start calling yourself andrego? I didn’t think so.
If you're against the goal stated above… why? Why are you so adamantly insisting on language that denigrates trans people?
Uh, I explained it pretty clearly above. A male woman is genetic male of feminine gender in this rubric.
I assume you mean phenotypical rather than genetic. Yes, I can read your explanation but I'm not likely to remember it, since it is arbitrary rather than logical. A "male woman" could just as well be a phenotypical female of male gender. "male" is the adjective and "woman" is the noun, and as the adjective "male" describes a type of "woman."
To those 99% of us who think sex is more fundamental than gender, therefore, it makes more sense to start with "woman" grounded in the fundamental reality of sex, and then to take the qualifier "male" as the secondary quality of gender.
Anyway, the point is that "male woman" and "female man" will be confusing folk indefinitely if they catch on, which they won't.
Do try to keep up.
Why on Earth should I bother ?
Why are you so adamantly insisting on language that denigrates trans people?
I refer to Majors as Majors, even if they prefer to be referred to as Colonels. I refer to silver medallists as silver medallists even if they feel they were cheated out of the gold. I refer to 5 foot ten guys as 5 foot ten, even if they’d prefer to be referred to as 6 feet tall. I refer to boring movies as boring, even if their directors and stars would prefer me to refer to them as great.
If this qualifies as ornery, I’m ornery.
Obviously face to face, I might tell a white lie to humor a friend, or a child, or whatever. Depending on the circumstances. Equally obviously if a red faced Major demanded that I address him as “Colonel” I wouldn’t dream of doing so. The construction of white lies for humoring purposes is highly context dependent. An internet chatterboard is one of those contexts which argues for reality and clarity, in preference to disingenuous circumlocution.
The solution is simple; return to the tradition of the original Olympics and have participants compete naked.
It seems absurd, but the Biden-Harris administration is currently attempting to force school sports to allow men in women's competitions. The Olympics allowed male boxers to fight females.
"The Olympics allowed male boxers to fight females."
Citation?
https://quillette.com/2024/08/03/xy-athletes-in-womens-olympic-boxing-paris-2024-controversy-explained-khelif-yu-ting/
At the same time, on the substance, the IOC has acknowledged that after Khelif’s first win on Thursday, it scrubbed from its own website the notation that at least Khelif—if not also Lin—has high T. To explain this, it said in part that T levels don’t matter, that lots of females also have high T. This is intentionally misleading.
Female athletes with high T—including those with polycystic ovaries—have T levels towards the top of the female range, not outside of the female range or inside the male range. Their sex is not in doubt. As I explained above, “high T” in an athlete who seeks to compete in the female category is code in international sports for either doping with exogenous androgens or being biologically male with bioavailable endogenous androgens. There’s no indication that either Khelif or Lin is doping.
Thus the IBF rated them men based on unspecified (officially) tests, but unofficially spilled the beans on karotype.
The IOC rated them women based on ...... their passports. But also revealed and then tried to hide their "high T" - aka testosterone levels that, absent doping, can only be caused by testes.
Testes maketh males.
“The first is the one from the—reputedly unreliable IBA—that Khelif and Lin do have DSD that should make them ineligible. That is, the IBA or its representatives have said they’re genetic males with male advantage.”
“It’s important to note that the IBA’s statements about Khelif and Lin are doubted by the IOC and others because the IBA has a reputation for being less than reliable, and because the IOC says it hasn’t seen the results of the tests that were the basis for the IBA’s decision to declare them ineligible.”
So, a reputationally disreputable organization with a potential to axe to grind says their tests revealed they were.
Skipping not very elegantly past the point that the IOC itself revealed, and then tried to conceal, the high T levels.
(Also as noted on the thread where this was discussed in detail, the IBA disqualified these guys, and a week or two later clarified their rules to establish a straightforward karotype test. The latter is a very strange thing to do if you've just disqualifed a couple of competitors with XX karotypes ! )
You're skipping very clumsily around the fact you haven't seen any evidence to support your fauxtrage.
No, you just don't like his evidence.
In contrast, there is no evidence that these boxers are not males with DSD like Caster Semenya.
"there is no evidence that these boxers are not" lol
As Sherlock Holmes pointed out, contrary to the saying, absence of evidence is sometimes evidence of absence.
As Michael P points out, bacchys is simply ignoring the evidence he/she/it doesn’t like – the IBA tests, the IOC high T report, the boxers’ male-typical physique.
But even if you do brush past that, there’s an absence of one particular piece of evidence that positively yells – far louder than the non barking dog.
These guys (or “gals”) won Olympic medals in highly controversial circumstances with lots of folk saying they cheated because they’re guys. If they were in fact gals, they would be rubbing their critics faces in it by having the appropriate sex tests, publishing them, and proving that they are indeed gals.
There’s no argument that if they did that it would all be very embarrassing because the embarrassment is already out there. Publishing the results of a sex test would disembarrass rather than embarrass. So long as the tests showed they were gals.
But they haven’t done that. For obvious reasons. As Prof Coleman explained, there are only two ways to get normal male testosterone levels. Doping, or having testes. And doping doesn’t affect your skeletal structure.
Yes, it would be extremely easy for them to provide test reports saying they have XX chromosomes or female-typical testosterone levels. The IBA cannot officially release the test results due to privacy laws.
What a disingenuous question. Grow up.
Don, that flap about those boxers by all accounts was just claptrap; there is no credible evidence they were men, or ever had been men.
And it's not like the right hasn't been looking.
Note how Michel crumbled to angry burden shifting when confronted. And how you just got angry at even questioning the whole thing.
This is as false as the eating pets bullshit.
Some might consider having XY chromosomes somewhat indicative of being male. So much for science. Actually come to think of it, let’s hear your definition of male and female. Now’s your chance to prove you’re smarter than a S.Ct. justice.
And, by the way clown, as aside, importing 20,000 plus illegals into a community of 30,000 actually does have disruptive effects. Ask the park pond ducks invited to diner. And the residents who made 911 calls. And the victims of the auto accidents. How the f do illegals get so many cars anyway? Is this part of their benefit package?
Riva makes an aside!
Who would guess he couldn't stay on topic, and bot-like wanted to relitigate an old and busted (and racist) talking point.
No, Riva, I'm not going to engage with your programmed nonsense today.
You brought up the topic, you f'ing moronic clown. "This is as false as the eating pets bullshit." And to the people of Springfield, "please don't eat my cat, why would you do that? eat something else..."
"just claptrap" is a much better description of Sarcastr0 than the very real and justified debate about those boxers. There is ample evidence they are male, and your side engaged in blatant denialism by pretending otherwise.
Ample evidence!
Which you somehow can't provide.
When you grow up, you’ll learn somewhere along the line that women don’t have testicles. Except for Sarcastr0 that is, not really sure what species he is.
And in case no one ever told you, men shouldn’t hit women.
Oh, he's got the evidence! He just put it with the evidence that Haitians ate pets or Trump's chopper ride with Willie Brown or....
the Biden-Harris administration is currently attempting to force school sports to allow men in women’s competitions.
No, they’re attempting to force school sports to allow all women to play in women's competitions.
That's facetious, and is just as wrong as the person you're responding to.
Indeed. The Biden administration's Title IX Rule expressly gave no opinion on whether a trans woman should be required to compete in women's sports.
Better example, say that men who want to play on women's teams should be shot -- that'd get you fired in a lot of places.
But I say again, I doubt that was all the only thing they were upset with him about.
Make him write something 100 times on a blackboard.
I will not shoot Republicans, not even a little bit.
I will not shoot Republicans, not even a little bit.
I don’t think it could be construed as a serious threat, but after at least half a decade of claiming words equal violence on campus, then a threat of violence even if in jest, becomes easier to take action against.
Add to the fact that he was making the threat as part of a political endorsement, makes it even easier.
“Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” /Saul Alinsky
That's compelled speech. A First Amendment no-no.
A slate blackboard and chalk?
I can't remember when I last saw one -- we went to dry-erase "whiteboards" back in the 1900's and now it's all LCD boards you can run off your laptop.
Your book, which I will probably read, contains the phrase “…restore honest, patriotic education that cultivates in our children a profound love for our country”, attributable, I surmise, to the 1776Action.org group mentioned in the Amazon sample. I’ve read only the sample so far, so I’m not certain whether or not you endorse this statement, but the context suggests that you don’t. And yes, context always matters, in and out of the classroom.
That one opinion from an avowedly ideological advocacy source is probably neither here nor there. It’s a staple of right-of-center rhetoric that turns up regularly on Fox News et al. So I sometimes wonder what it really means. One reading would suggest that American educational institutions at all levels should maximize (perhaps to 100%) discussion of our positives and minimize (perhaps to 0%) our negatives so that students will grow up and grow into a devout love of country.
If my reading is correct, I find the proposal somewhat less offensive than knee-jerk jingoism. I also find that it falls short of my personal ideal, that education at all levels should emphasize the encouragement of students’ abilities to apply reason and critical thinking in areas where controversy exists. Certainly in the study of American history, perhaps not in math classes, although math and science education helps build the intellectual muscles students need to have for evaluating ideas in all areas of study.
So finally I wonder how proper education that “cultivates… profound love” differs from improper indoctrination. If American history is taught and understood as it was, not as how we wish it had been, will students not come to love their country on their own, a love of the ideals we share in our social contracts even when we fall short? There are so many positives in our history, and we shouldn’t feel a need to suppress the recognition and understanding of our negatives. If love of country is something that must be taught rather than experienced, what kind of love is it? After all, Soviet children were constantly bombarded with stories of the glories of communism, but they experienced the Soviet reality by observing their families having to queue up in long lines to buy a loaf of bread or fresh eggs.
It would be nice to have seen the entirety of his lecture to see the context of what he said (which, in the small one available does seem somewhere between very clumsy and seriously unprofessional). In my (clearly not dispositive) experience instructors in health sports courses are not wild-eyed radicals, so it would be interesting to see the overall context of the point he was trying to make.
It would be interesting to see this in the context of his personnel file and what other things he has said/done. This sounds more like the last straw than a singular incident.
He knew he was being recorded -- often that is the admin response to complaints about his teaching or classroom behavior, to counsel him to be a good boy and then record the class so that there is a record of it.
“We could line ______ ______ up and shoot them. They clearly don’t understand the way the world works.”
Not sorry to see this guy go to the unemployment line.
I’m not a lawyer, I’m an engineer. But I can conclude with 99% certainty, if he had filled in the blank with the name of the democrat candidates for president and vice president, the response would have been pretty fierce.
Oh wow, 99 percent! It must be true, then.
He was fired as is dude. You just really need your grievance!
The author's take is the correct one. This has nothing to do with violence. It's an abuse of professional power. Whether or not it's a firing offence, it's definitely punishable, including loss of pay for the rest of the semester. And warning that if it ever happens again, it's the loss of his job. And a general announcement to the rest of the faculty that anyone repeating this type of behavior will get the same treatment. Without that, the rest of them will assume that the university is only acting under duress.
https://casetext.com/case/us-v-hart-31
How is this different from parking a Ryder truck outside an Abortion clinic? And that WAS criminal speech.
Agreed. I don't think it's a true threat, but neither do I think the professor was just joking around. Completely unprofessional behavior, and depending on any past issues, how he reacted to the complaint, firing could be reasonable. I'll note that his "retraction" wasn't "Oh jeez, that was out of line, I went too far there", it was "I hope I don't get caught"
What exactly is "this type of behavior" you think the university should find objectionable? Was it clear in the university's rules and guidelines that "this type of behavior" was unacceptable and would result in dismissal?
Let's try this out on other groups:
We could line Jews up and shoot them. They clearly don’t understand the way the world works.
We could line Blacks up and shoot them. They clearly don’t understand the way the world works.
We could line women up and shoot them. They clearly don’t understand the way the world works.
We could line gays up and shoot them. They clearly don’t understand the way the world works.
We could line trans-people up and shoot them. They clearly don’t understand the way the world works.
We could line Muslims up and shoot them. They clearly don’t understand the way the world works.
We could line Asians up and shoot them. They clearly don’t understand the way the world works.
We could line the disabled up and shoot them. They clearly don’t understand the way the world works.
This is not protected speech for a professor by any stretch of the imagination.
You forgot the word “those.”
We shouldn’t ignore the fact that the 9/11 terrorists were Muslims from Al-Qaeda. We could line all
those
Muslims up and shoot them. They clearly don’t understand the way the world works.Not saying it's a great way to put the point, but it's way different from what you're suggesting.
A professor has no right to commandeer his health sports class in order to engage in political advocacy.
I don’t disagree, but I’m not sure by what principle this arises. Is it just supposed to be something everyone knows? What other opinions count as unstated firing offenses? This has a tincture of cancel culture to it.
This case would be a lot easier if there were employee guidelines that outlined, even in general, the out-of-bounds topics.
"In the clip, he seems to say in the middle of a class session, "There are going to be some males in our society that will refuse to vote for a potential female president because they don't think females are smart enough to be president."
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"Seemed to say"? Is anyone alleging he didn't say those words but instead said something else? I listened to the video clip several times and to me that is exactly what he said.
"Faculty speech in the classroom that is neither germane nor competent, however, is unprotected, and professors can be properly disciplined for such speech."
I wonder who gets to decide if speech is germane, or competent.
Majorities, of course!
Then why create an exception to the government speech rule?
This is the usual approach to finding ways to prohibit unwanted speech, from either the left or right – find a content-neutral way to frame it as “inappropriate” for the relevant context.
“Neither germane nor competent” is a useful standard for those wanting to clamp down on things like TPUSA finagling invites from College Republican chapters to Ben Shapiro. All that an administrator needs to observe is that Shapiro is not in any meaningful sense an academic, and has no interest in engaging in real dialogue. These kinds of appearances are entirely about causing a ruckus – ideally, you’ll get a few incensed lefties doing something absurdly over-the-top on video, which you can then push out to your outrage-media watchers. Shapiro's not "competent" to speak to any issue that is "germane" to the university's mission.
Same goes, I’d suppose, for campus “preachers” trying to harass LGBT students, professors who spend their free time trying to get graduates fired or blacklisted, professors who abuse their position to try to promote themselves on the right-wing speaking circuit, and so on. “Germane” and “competent” are both usefully flexible terms, aren’t they?
Here’s a thought: Instead of spending our time finding ways to better regulate speech, perhaps we can spend our time asking more fundamental questions like, “Why is this professor’s off-had remark such a big deal in the first place? Who is being harmed by this utterance?” We might discover that coming for this guy is as obnoxious as coming for every professor who refuses to engage in DEI-speak or use some kid’s pronouns.
No it’s not the usual way.
The usual way is to prevent the conservative student organisations from inviting “controversial” speakers, by straightforward “verboten”s, or by denying use of a hall, or by slapping a $50,000 security fee on them, or by allowing demonstrators to shout down the speaker and/ or hit him, without meaningful disciplinary action,
This is different. This is the employer telling the employee- sorry we’re gonna have to let you go. There’s nothing to suggest that if he’s invited back to speak at an event organised by lefty students, any attempt will be made to stop him yapping till his jaw hurts.
" that an administrator needs to observe is that Shapiro is not in any meaningful sense an academic..."
The old not an academic exception to the first amendment, eh? It doesn't occur to you that people who aren't academics might have things to say that are worth listing to?
This has to be the best counter to the "germane and competent" standard that I've heard on this thread.
And in any event, College Republicans are entitled to full first amendment protection. There speech isn’t government speech, so an exception to the government speech doctrine limited to germane and competent speech wouldn't prevent them from inviting any speaker they wish.
I appreciate Professor Whittington’s point that Professor’s don’t have the right to say absolutely anything they want on their employer’s time and dime, they have to behave professionally and they have to so things pertinent to their jobs.
I would go a bit further. I think that in multi-section and general ed courses, schools have a right to expect professors to stick to the curriculum and for their to be some consistency across sections in the material taught and grading.
At some point, you're out to the realm of an exception to the government speech doctrine, and you're just arguing that how much leeway professors are allowed in their speech is a policy consideration to be balanced with the other goals of the university, just like any other government employee speech.
I think that academic speech more or less has to be analyzed as a sui generis thing. I don’t think lumping it into other categories covers it without leading to nonsensical results. They aren’t exactly like government employees in general, and general government employee speech analysis doesn’t work. But they aren’t exactly like people in the public square in general either, and analyzing them as if they were also doesn’t work.
I think how much freedom of speech they get does depend to some extent on what they are doing. They get the most when conducting, publishing, and discussing their own research and in teaching their own work in a class set up for that purpose. They also get freedom to give their own opinions outside the classroom without triggering a government employee analysis.
But if they are hired to teach a general education course according to a syllabus, they can’t decide they’d prefer to teach their own work instead.
I don’t have enough information to judge this professor. I think it is a mistake to attempt to judge people based on brief snippets of out-of-context video. I think part of being educated is learning not to react to raw meat people throw in front of you as stimulus. If university officials think like knee-jerk members of a mob, rushing to judgment over something like this, what’s the point of having universities?
“There are going to be some males in our society that will refuse to vote for a potential female president because they don’t think females are smart enough to be president. We could line all those guys up and shoot them.”
It was a “health sports class” and the health sports instructor should have stayed out of politics and on health sports.
The comment though is flippant and hyperbolic and not a true threat. And “could” not “should”. Worth a reminder to stay on topic in classroom discussions but not worth termination. But this is the age of over reaction and virtue signalling.