The Volokh Conspiracy
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Do Professors Have a Right to Boycott Israeli Institutions and "Zionists"?
I was asked this question at a panel of the recent Israeli American Council national conference, and here is how I responded:
As a rule, the act of boycotting is not constitutionally protected, because it's considered an economic act, not a matter of free expression. That said, as a general matter, anyone is free to advocate a boycott, because advocacy is protected speech. In any event, regardless of constitutional considerations, no one is going to force a professor to submit a paper to an academic conference held at Tel Aviv University. So in that sense, professors are free, for example, to boycott Israeli universities as much as they want.
But a problem arises when a professor is acting on behalf of his institution.
The Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement advocates boycotting Israeli universities, which is against policy at all major universities. An individual professor has no right to go against university policy when acting on behalf of the university. The BDS movement also suggests boycotting anyone with ties to Israeli universities, and also anyone who supports what they consider Israeli violations of international law and human rights. By their lights this means, for example, anyone who supports any Israeli military action in Gaza or Lebanon, which they (absurdly) call "genocide" (and did so well before 10/7) Israel's actions. This, in turn, means boycotting almost all Israelis and most American Jews. This would be a violation of state law in many states, could be a violation of the First Amendment at state universities, would violate university policies regarding academic freedom, and likely would violate federal and state antidiscrimination laws.
And I think that's where we need to get tough. If a professor has said that he or she is personally pledged to adopt BDS and academic boycotts of Israel, we should insist that the rule that such a person may not serve as a dean, may not serve on hiring committees, may not serve on disciplinary committees, may not have any role in making decisions where they will have an opportunity to act on their stated principles and discriminate. The reason for this insistence is not because of the individuals' ideology, but because they have announced that in their professional lives they act in ways inconsistent with what would be their responsibilities acting on behalf of the university.
That said, merely stating "I think the BDS movement is a good idea," would not come within this rule, though universities would absolutely be within their rights to expect all faculty to sign a pledge that they will not discriminate based on national origin, ties to a foreign country, or political views before allowing that individual to wield university power.
Finally, I think professors have no right to refuse to write letters of recommendations to their students because they disapprove of their students' political views. There is, I think a way to do this without forcing a professor to write specifically to an organization that he disapproves of. Just tell the student, "I can't write a letter to ___ for you, but I of course will give you a generic letter of recommendation, and you can send it to whomever you wish."
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I have a number of serious disagreements with this post.
I do have some issues with your post.
1. ‘almost all Israelis and most American Jews’ support Israel’s actions in Gaza or Lebanon
I’m not sure this is right. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/10/01/slight-uptick-in-americans-wanting-u-s-to-help-diplomatically-resolve-israel-hamas-war/
In general, I see it among the antisemitic lefties equating Israeli interests with Jewish interests to the point that this kind of lumping in general makes me uncomfortable.
2. You’re ‘getting tough’ is probably within the legality of school-as-employer but it is very much against any kind of principle of free speech. If you’re concerned policies won’t be followed, the thing to do is wait until those policies are broken.
Assuming that a professor’s speech is enough to infer that they will go against administration policy is certainly ideological policing, if not full thoughtcrime.
People should be assumed as capable of being professionals, putting their personal views aside.
3. Letters of recommendation strike me the same as baking bespoke cakes. These are not letters taken from a catalogue.
The cure for the government insisting on such a thing is not ‘oh have some generic cakes around just in case someone asks for a cake for reasons you don’t like.’ The cure is ‘the government doesn’t get to insist on that.’
Finally, these do not look like content-neural policies. They look viewpoint and subject specific.
All in all, this seems a lesson in how free speech is hard when it’s your ox.
I do have some issues with your post.
“1. ‘almost all Israelis and most American Jews’ support Israel’s actions in Gaza or Lebanon.”
No, while I can see that this was ambiguous, that was just an example of the sort of thing they would say is supporting violation of human rights. Their view of Israel violating human rights is capacious enough to encompass the vast majority of American Jews’ opinions on Israel. And in the particular case, I didn't mean that American Jews generally support every specific action of Israel in either Lebanon or Gaza, but that they support Israel's general right to fight Hamas and Hezbollah, each of which the BDS types was claiming was "supporting genocide" well before 10/7.
“2. You’re ‘getting tough’ is probably within the legality of school-as-employer but it is very much against any kind of principle of free speech.”
No it’s not. People can say whatever they want, they just can’t say they believe in personally violating school policy X, and then expect to be able to act on behalf of the school.
“Assuming that a professor’s speech is enough to infer that they will go against administration policy is certainly ideological policing, if not full thoughtcrime.” You wouldn’t say that about a professor who announced “I boycott all people who identify as LGBT,” or “I don’t believe in hiring any female faculty.”
“3. Letters of recommendation strike me the same as baking bespoke cakes.”
No, it’s the same as the owner of the bakery telling you to bake a bespoke cake. Writing letters of recommendation is part of your job.
1. I can't argue with that broader definition. as characterized, though I'd note that the opinion of Jewish Americans are significantly, but not seismically different from Americans generally:
From the Pew link above, Polled Sept. 16 to 22, 2024.
Americans:
31% say Israel’s current military operation against Hamas is going too far,
12% say it is not going far enough
20% say it’s taking the right approach.
36% say they are unsure about Israel’s handling of the conflict.
Jewish Americans:
28% say Israel’s military operation is going too far.
24% say it has not gone far enough.
32% say it is taking the right approach.
13% are unsure.
How about a poll of MAGA Protestants:
It would be a split between "not going far enough" and "exploding beepers -- cool -- Israel apparently knows what it is doing."
There is a partisan comparison in the Pew poll, though not “MAGA”, on opinion about Israel’s military actions.
As of September, among Democrats/leaning Democratic:
50% “going too far”
11% “taking about the right approach”
5% “Not going far enough”
34% “Not sure.
And it has shifted significantly against Israel since December of last year.
As of September, among Republicans/leaning Republican:
13% “Going too far”
30% “Taking about the right approach”
20% “Not going far enough”
36% “Not sure”
Since December of last year, “Going too far” has increased 1%, “Taking about the right approach” has contracted 4%, “Not going far enough” has contracted 5%, and “Not sure” has increased by 7%
VERY bifurcated politically. Democrats started out pretty hostile to Israel and have only grown more hostile, while Republicans started out VERY supportive of Israel, and have cooled just a little.
I'd started out with the impression that the administration was sucking up to the Muslim vote, but forget that. Based on this poll, they're actually impressively standing up to their own base, these numbers are way too extreme to just represent Muslim sentiment in America.
And the people around here (including DB) are responding by outrageously calling half of Democrats antisemitic. Good luck with that strategy!
I don't think that noticing that half of the Democratic base are mildly to extremely antisemitic is going to improve them anyway, but it's got the virtue of acknowledging the truth.
Which is always worth doing, even when it's an ugly truth, and acknowledging it is unlikely to change it.
It is in no way true. It's just a way to deflect rather than wrestle with the actual issues. Watch as that number continues to go up and up and up, until "standing up to the base" is no longer politically feasible.
As to can't/shouldn't be able to say they want a policy other than the one they are bound to uphold, I am less convinced.
I can't speak generally, but in the legal and federal fields, employees are allowed to say that kind of thing all the time on other issues.
I don't think one should treat deans like political appointees; school administration is accountable to university leadership, but so far as I know you don't fire the dean with the board of directors changes.
3. Baking bespoke cakes is a bespoke cake baker's job, but it's unconstitutional to require said baker to bake every bespoke cake a customer asks for.
I'd be interested in other law profs weighing in on this bit, because while I've written letters of recommendation that's hardly part of my job description.
FWIW, I have a good friend who is a young law prof in a red state, and she takes Bernstein's side, so I'm probably wrong. But still unconvinced!
David said they can advocate for a different policy. What they can't do is say they will act against the policy.
I don't think you're right.
Saying 'no, I won't follow the policy of the administration' seems an easy layup to not make them part of the school administration.
That seems narrower than what the OP contemplates in 'getting tough:'
"If a professor has said that he or she is personally pledged to adopt BDS and academic boycotts of Israel, we should insist that the rule that such a person may not serve as a dean, may not serve on hiring committees, may not serve on disciplinary committees, may not have any role in making decisions where they will have an opportunity to act on their stated principles and discriminate"
Personal and professional are not the same.
I don't think "personally pledged" means in one's off-the-job duties, but rather one's (personal) conduct on the job. I base that conclusion on David's emphasis on conduct on behalf of the university. Perhaps David can clarify.
If I am wrong and David's "get tough" policy extends to off-the-job conduct not on behalf of the university, then I agree with you.
The clarification is that if a professor says, "I comply with the guidelines of the BDS movement" and then wants to act on behalf of the university, he or she should be asked to clarify as to whether this applies when acting on behalf of the university. If yes, then no go. If the professor says no, that's fine, but a university would then be within its rights to ask the professor who has publicly said he or she adheres to BDS to publicly clarify that the professor does not follow this policy when serving as an administrator etc.
Seems reasonable to me. Do you agree Sarcrastr0?
I don’t like the burden shifting to unprofessional until proven otherwise.
But I don’t know academia enough to know how extraordinary that is.
If it’s deployed for other issues, happy to not do a special pleading. But the reverse also applies.
The closest comparison I can think of on the top of my head is “I’m personally pledged to boycott universities located in cities which don’t sufficiently repress black crime.”
If we’re going to apply single standards, then such a person is likely a racist, he/she probably isn’t getting on any policymaking positions, and his/her very job would probably be in jeopardy. So under the single-standard approach, someone who “personally” pledges to boycott Israeli universities should be treated similarly.
Part of this seems to be the question of whether we want to apply the Amy Wax standard more broadly.
If a professor says appalling things (Or at least things that suggest serious bias against a group of students), should that professor be removed from any leadership or administrative positions? Should that professor be removed from teaching mandatory classes? Should they be formally admonished and suspended even if there is no direct evidence of discrimination in their professional conduct?
I tend to think the answer is yes to the first few questions and no to the third, regardless of whether the potato is a paleoconservative blowhard or a BDS fanatic.
"If a professor says appalling things (Or at least things that suggest serious bias against a group of students), should that professor be removed from any leadership or administrative positions?"
It depends on whether or not you support academic freedom. Freedom means the right to say things that people in charge find appalling.
To me the specific thing Wax did that was beyond the pale was not her execrable views but to insult her students in a way that went directly to making them unwelcome.
That's job performance, even if it's not like discriminating based on grades.
And it's also backwards looking, not a pre-crime thing.
You are certainly free to advocate that Amy Wax not be allowed to express ideas that you find beyond the pale, or ideas that make students feel insulted for unwelcome. But that's inconsistent with the principle of academic freedom.
And hand-wavingly calling something "job performance" doesn't mean it's not protected by academic freedom.
That's an odd reply to his comment. He specifically wrote that her views weren't the problem, but her insulting specific students was. In your view, does academic freedom protect the insulting of students based on their race or country of origin?
"He specifically wrote that her views weren’t the problem, but her insulting specific students was."
But that's a non-sequitur. The fact that your students are insulted by your views has nothing to do with whether or not your views are protected by academic freedom.
"In your view, does academic freedom protect the insulting of students based on their race or country of origin?"
In general, of course it does. You may be able to draw some line where a particular manner of insulting students might not be prohibited, but the fact that students find your views insulting doesn't mean that they're not protected.
Nice try twisting Sarcastr0's "insult her students" into "make her students feel insulted." We all know those aren't the same.
Making students feel insulted: "Israel is committing war crimes."
Insulting students: "Bill, as Jew you aren't able to comprehend Israel's war crimes."
“Bill, as a white person you aren’t able to understand what it feels like to be called a nigger”
Can you articulate a difference, or is it just ipse dixit?
And to be clear, if a professor believes that Jews are unable to comprehend Israel’s “war crimes,” are you claiming that it’s consistent with academic freedom to punish him for saying so?
There is a slight distinction that could make a difference in context. The professor in your example probably means non-Black, which makes the comment slightly more forgivable… but not enough to matter here since there is no context and hence no nuance. So I would put them both in the “insult her students” category.
And yes, academic freedom does not require allowing professors to insult their students. If a professor believes that Jews can’t comprehend Israeli war crimes, they can express that view as a general proposition. There’s no need to attribute it to actual individual students.
You still haven't articulated a difference between insulting the student and making the student feel insulted.
If a student is expounding on how black people shouldn't be insulted when they are called niggers because he isn't insulted when he is called a honkey, the teacher can explain her view of the difference directly to the student, even if the student feels insulted.
What, exactly, is the Amy Wax standard?
She said stuff that Sarcastro wanted to censor.
I believe one of Sarc's two example of her insulting students was that she said something like, "The primary purpose of American universities should be to educate American students."
That is why I asked for a specific 'Amy Wax Standard', and what specifically happened that has 'ignited' Gaslight0, so to speak.
What did she say that was so terrible? (aside from, "The primary purpose of American universities should be to educate American students." Oh, the horror)
And, is there objective data that supports or disproves what she said?
You could just search the web to find that she's a racist whom your fellow "we totally aren't racist" idiots are rushing to defend her repugnant remarks.
Your other option is to continue to pretend that you're just acting ignorant.
"You could just search the web to find that she’s a racist..."
So the Amy Wax standard is no academic freedom for people you think are racists?
“free speech is hard when it’s your ox.”
Tell me, Sarcastr0: if a particular professor happens to favor boycotting Muslims, would you, likewise, defend him on “free speech” grounds? Would you support his nomination as Dean of Diversity? Or as university president? Or are you just making an invidious exception in your otherwise impeccably “progressive” anti-discrimination worldview? What was it that George Orwell said about some animals not being as equal as other animals...
Yeah, Ed, my principles don't change just because you switch Israel for Muslim.
Also, you appear to be buying into the antisemitic assumption that Israel is all Jews.
I'm in favor of a hiring push for conservative faculty, because I believe most people are able to put their professionalism over ideology when they are called to.
And I think our country is set up on that same assumption. E pluribus unum and all that.
The "get tough" policy against pledges to adopting BDS while on the job is analogous to a sign which says, "we don't serve blacks." It's likely permissible as speech integral to illegal conduct.
On the other hand, I'm not sure about an affirmative requirement to sign a no-BDS pledge. Can a government employer require you to sign a pledge not to discriminate while on the job, or is that compelled speech? I'm leaning towards that being permissible but am not sure (I bet Eugene would know).
No, go all the way with this Josh.
The equivalent would be to apply a similar policy to, say, Zimbabwe. To refuse to teach International students from there, to not let your faculty go there to help them improve their agriculture and food preservation practices, and to banish anyone who has.
And also banish any Black student who went to Zimbabwe during time in the Peace Core, or perhaps any Black student in general because they are all the same race.
How long do you think that would last?
"Can a government employer require you to sign a pledge not to discriminate while on the job, or is that compelled speech?"
Seems like the government's interest in requiring its employees to agree to follow the conditions of their employment would outweigh the employees' interest in refusing to do so.
1. There’s a big difference between supporting having the US help end the war diplomaticly and wanting to boycott Israel or, for that matter, even thinking Israel is in the wrong over this war. The two are very far from equivalent.
2. A professor repeatedly states the civil rights laws were a terrible mistake, black people do not belong in universities, and he supports boycotting, divesting, and sanctioning black people for genoicide against the good Southern people, most recently acts of cultural genocide including the horrible destruction of Confederate monuments and efforts to snuff out even remnants of traditional antebellum Southern culture. Would you appoint this professor dean of admissions?
Ron Paul was right -- the Civil Rights laws, enacted under the auspices of the Commerce Clause, ARE unConstitutional. (Now as to the enforcement clause of the 14th Amendment, that's a different story.)
But imagine if a Con Law professor were to say that....
Given that the couple hundred or so con law professors have opinions all over the map, I’d be surprised if some con law professor somewhere hasn’t said that.
The relevant laws applicable to universities, Title VI and Title IX, are based on the Spending power, not the commerce clause.
And I believe under the auspices of the Higher Ed Act of 1965 and not the Civil Rights Act of 1964, although I believe incorporate the Civil Right Act by reference.
So if Congress uses the Spending power to enforce an unConstitutional law, what do you have? Can text be incorporated into a new law even though the law it appears in is itself unConstitutional?
It's generally not unconsitutional to condition spending on something that would on its own violate the Tenth Amendment. See for example, conditioning highway funds on a 55 MPH speed limit.
Justice Barrett recently floated the idea that the federal government should not be able to contract with a private party to break state law, which would significantly cabin the scope of the federal Spending Clause power. That approach might possibly affect some of the more current interpretations of Title IX. But the core goal of conditioning receipt of federal funds on prohibiting institutional discrimination as traditionally understood would still be a valid use of the Spending Clause. If a state can’t constitutionally pass a law prohibiting something, then Congress is free to use the Spending Clause to require it.
We have an object lesson in Amy Wax, who is a full-on bigot and protected.
Except in as much as she was unable to keep her views out of insulting her students; for that she can't teach first-years, but otherwise her sanctions are light.
Amy Wax is NOT a bigot.
Ah yes, according to you her speech falls under the "Objectively Bigoted" exception to academic freedom.
Consider the source...a moth to the flame.
Objectively excluding and insulting her students.
I’ve explained that to you five times now.
Your need to strawman even now shows how little you care to engage versus just attack.
Can you give examples of her insults?
https://abovethelaw.com/2023/04/amy-wax-admits-most-allegations/
“Wax also admitted that she said, “finally, an American” after she listened to a group of students with “exotic” names introduce themselves.
“American universities should primarily educate American citizens,” Wax told the audience.”
From the article, that was in her class, not some event.
That sounds like the type of insult directed at specific people that would qualify as unprotected speech. Your article didn't give any other examples, instead relying on general disparaging statements that are protected speech.
“ That sounds like the type of insult directed at specific people that would qualify as unprotected speech.”
There is no “insult directed at specific people” exception to the first amendment.
There is no University of Pennsylvania Provision of the First Amendment.
Eugene has argued that one-to-one speech is not protected from anti-discrimination laws which incorporate harassment as discrimination (e.g., “you are a diry Jew” said directly to a target.) It seems to me that “finally an American” said directly to a group of immigrants is not protected speech under Eugene’s doctrine.
"There is no University of Pennsylvania Provision of the First Amendment."
Certainly true, and the University of Pennsylvania is under no constitutional obligation to protect its professors' academic freedom. But Sarcastro has argued that Wax's speech is unprotected under rules that apply first amendment standards to private schools because her speech was "objectively bigoted"
"Eugene has argued that one-to-one speech is not protected from anti-discrimination laws which incorporate harassment as discrimination"
He argues that "directed" speech, i.e. speech directed at a particular unwilling listener, can be restricted.
But speech directed to the workplace at large, or speech directed to willing listeners but overheard by unwilling listeners, cannot be.
The speech at issue here was not directed at a particular individual.
And in any event, it's hard to imagine a more willing set of listeners than students who voluntarily signed up for Wax's class in order to hear her views, paying for the privilege, no less!
I believe “finally, an American” was directed at the immigrants in her class. And no, they weren't willing listeners any more than Jewish students would be if she said, "special welcome to the dirty Jews who took this class."
Why would it be directed to the immigrants specifically? It sounds like it was either directed at the American, or more likely said to the entire class.
In any event, it wasn't one-on-one speech.
And yes, they're willing listeners. As I said, they don't have to take the class, they take it because they want to hear her views.
FFS. It was said to the class, targeting each non-American student. "One-to-one" doesn't literally mean only one person can be the direct target. It also includes directly targeting a small group.
So, I guess you believe the Jewish student in my hypothetical was a willing listener. Ridiculous.
"FFS. It was said to the class, targeting each non-American student."
Did you read the article you linked to? Such speech isn't directed speech under the article's theory.
The article uses a poster that says, "Hitler didn't go far enough, kill the kikes" as an example of undirected, and therefore protected speech.
That would be protected speech because it was not directly targeted at named persons. In contrast, Wax's "finally an American" was said during roll call (of sorts) and is directly targeted at specific named people (the non-Americans) in the class.
You just conceded it was directed at the class. It's not directed at specific people any more that the kill the kikes poster is targeted at the specific Jews in the office.
You might be the stupidest person here, tiny pianist, if you can't understand speech directed to specific individuals as opposed to speech that's about an open-ended set.
"You might be the stupidest person here, tiny pianist."
I'll never be the stupidest person here as long as you're around, Randall.
A workplace, or a class, isn't an open-ended set. Perhaps that's why Prof. V limited his definition of directed to a particular person, instead of particular people.
A workplace, or a class, isn’t an open-ended set.
Finally, you get it! That's exactly Josh's point.
"Finally, you get it! That’s exactly Josh’s point."
Except that per the argument, speech directed at a workplace is protected. And Josh gives no reason that speech directed at a class should be different.
FFS. Wax’s (finally, an American) was not directed at the class “at large” as a general expression of her views to willing listeners. It was directed in a derogatory manner at the non-Americans in the class, directly to their faces.
"It was speech directed at specific named people in the class: 1) Americans to elevate them and 2) non-Americans to denigrate them."
Dat u?
That sounds like it was directed to the entire class.
And it sounds like you're conceding that there are potentially willing listeners in the class.
A direct denigration of some and elevation of others, to their faces, is not an expression of her general view to the entire class. The fact that those who are elevated are willing listeners does not change there are unwilling listeners who were direct targets to their faces.
Are you going to die on the hill that "finally, a Christian" after a set of Jews in the class introduce themselves is protected speech because it is directed to the entire class? Be my guest.
"The fact that those who are elevated are willing listeners does not change there are unwilling listeners who were direct targets to their faces."
Again, that's inconsistent with Prof V's argument:
"...so that restricting such one-to-one speech will leave speakers free to communicate to willing listeners."
The argument is that restrictions on speech to unwilling listeners aren't harmful as long as they don't restrict the speaker's ability to attempt to communicate with potentially willing listeners.
Your form of the restriction does not leave her free to communicate with potentially willing listeners.
Your form of the restriction does not leave her free to communicate with potentially willing listeners.
Let's examine how asinine you are. Which of these do you think should be protected?
1. "Bill, you're a dirty Jew" when the speaker knows that Bill is a Jew who is unwilling to hear it.
2. "Bill, you're a dirty Jew" when the speaker knows that Bill is a Jew but doesn't know whether or not Bill is willing to hear it.
3. "Bill and Sarah, you two are dirty Jews" when the speaker knows that Bill and Sarah are Jews who are unwilling to hear it.
4. "Jews are dirty" when the speaker knows that there are Jews in the audience who are unwilling to hear it.
5. "Jews are dirty, present company excepted" when the speaker knows that there are Jews in the audience who are unwilling to hear it.
If your answer is anything other than "only 4 and 5" then you're arguing in bad faith.
If your answer is "only 4 and 5" then you've been trolling Josh because you guys have been in agreement this whole time.
And that is the example I’m talking about.
She is a bigot and protected. Except for that one example where sanction is appropriate.
I think we agree.
It was speech directed at specific named people in the class: 1) Americans to elevate them and 2) non-Americans to denigrate them.
It's no different than taking role and exclaiming "finally, a Christian" when Smith speaks up after after Rosenstein, Feldman and Schwartz introduced themselves.
EV argues that speech directed at a specific person can be restricted, but speech directed to the workplace at large cannot.
You're trying to eliminate that distinction by expanding "specific person" to "specific people" and claiming that speech directed to the class at large is actually directed to all the specific people in the class. That undermines the entire point of the article.
What do you think is the distinction between speech directed to the workplace at large, and speech directed at all the specific individuals in the workplace?
FFS. Eugene does not say speech directed at more than one person is protected. He says speech which is undirected (not said directly to specific people) is protected. The concept of directed “at large” is gibberish. Either the speech is directed at specific people or it is undirected.
If someone posts on social media that “Jews are filthy,” that’s undirected. If they say all the Jews in this class are filthy, to their faces, that’s directed.
"The concept of directed “at large” is gibberish."
Take it up with the guy who wrote the article you linked to.
Even undirected speech can be said to be directed at some set of individuals, who can often be identified. Claiming that such speech is directed would nullify the entire argument.
The purpose of the one-to-on vs. one-to-many distinction is to ensure that the restrictions don't prevent the speaker from communicating with a potentially willing listener. Prof. V has written elsewhere:
Even if we except your view that students who voluntarily come to her class to hear her views aren't willing listeners, speech directed at the entire class isn't one-on-one, and may well be targeting some willing listeners.
Tiny pianist, you seem confused — probably intentionally — about the meaning of speech “directed” to an individual or set of individuals.
There’s a difference between who the speech is addressed to and who the speech is about. A workplace wouldn’t and shouldn’t tolerate a manager who puts up posters saying “My employee Kathy is a whore because she’s on the pill.” You’re pretending like that’s undirected speech because it’s on a poster. Which is retarded.
Similarly, going to Kathy and telling her that “Women who use the pill are whores” is clearly directed at Kathy.
For speech to be undirected, it needs to be neither addressed to nor about specific individuals. A poster saying “Women who use the pill are whores” is undirected.
This is all obvious to humans who have developed the ability to communicate with each other. You’ve clearly never experienced a workplace nor any other community of humans if you don’t know how this shit works.
Let's modify Randall's #3: The professor in a class says of two students, “Bill and Sarah, you two are dirty Jews” when the professor knows that Bill and Sarah are Jews who are unwilling to hear it. But, there are 20 other students in the class who are willing to hear it.
I say that is not protected speech and would be shocked if Eugene did not agree.
“I’ve explained that to you five times now.”
It doesn’t make any more sense the fifth time than it did the first.
“Your need to strawman even now shows how little you care to engage versus just attack.”
“Objectively Bigoted” were your words, not mine, correct?
I mean, at this point, claiming that your argument is that you only want to censor things that are objectively wrongthink would barely be a strawman.
“We have an object lesson in Amy Wax, who is a full-on bigot and protected.”
I repeat that I don’t know what happened with Wax, but a hypothetical professor who insults American students to their faces by saying they aren’t Americans has (let’s not mince words) engaged in censorship-worthy speech. Such a professor should be punished, on the grounds that yes, she engaged in speech, but then so does a libeler, and like libel her words come within an exception for unprotected, censor-worthy speech.
The BDSM, I mean BDS, people are an easier case. They’re like communists pledged to create a society in which “academic freedom” means freedom to be a good little Marxist-Leninist. Sidney Hook supported censoring such folks, and BDSers, who are pledged to a political boycott of academic institutions, are in the same deplorable basket.
It’s entirely possible most of the folks who say they want the US to do more to end the war diplomatically want the US to do things like put pressure on backers of Hamas or provide other incentives to get Hamas to release the hostages. America pressuring Israel to stop unilaterally and let Hamas keep its human prizes is not the only way US diplomacy can help end the war.
"People should be assumed as capable of being professionals, putting their personal views aside."
What has the contemporary American academy done to earn the benefit of the doubt? There have been untold numbers of incidents that counsel in the precise opposite direction in just the past year.
I gotta say.
I saw this post, and I immediately wondered...which side will Sarcastr0 come down on. On the side of the Jews. Or the other side.
I didn't need to wonder. But I was surprised it was the very first post.
But some of his best friends are Jews. He promises.
But just remember.... every time... every time... Every time, the Jews come up, and Sacastr0 decides to post. Every time....you know what side he's on.
It's not the Jew's side. Every time.
Odd that his comment doesn't come down on any particular 'side,' and instead challenges two statements by Bernstein, yet you claim it's somehow anti-Semetic.
Even more odd is that your posts can't meet the minimal standard of being truthful and not "I eat my own shit for breakfast because I like it" moronic.
Oh, it did.
You see, Sarcastr0 is arguing for those professors who support BDS to be able to be on hiring committees and other committees in Universities, so they can use their anti-Jew views to to influence institutional policy.
The whole letters of recommendation is such bullshit, the ones for Med School were from the Department Chairmen when it was Graduate Assistants Jug-Dish, Moe-hammed, and the guy who's name was a sequence of clicks and buzzes who taught the courses, ran the labs, gave and graded the exams. Best letter I got was from a Surgeon my mom worked with (did they(redacted)? been known to happen) never met the guy, but he knew what to write, every Med Screw-el Interviewer commented on what a great letter it was. Now I write them myself, for hard working young women, usually at the request of the mother, like in that "Soprano's" episode, what am I gonna do, say somebody's kid sucks?
Frank
Letters of recommendation are personal, academic, and professional. You can refuse to write one for any of those three reasons.
If I am going to recommend someone, I am putting my academic and professional ass on the line. They have to earn it, you don't get one just for taking my class. When you get a letter of recommendation from me, it opens doors, and on the other side, I do not intend to have any of them close for me as a result of the recommendation.
Generally, though, those seeking a recommendation already know they are in good graces, so it's never really an issue. But I do reserve the right.
Imagine you already wrote a letter of recommendation for Mr. Smith to attend grad school at Harvard, Berkeley, University of Chicago, and Penn. Mr. Smith now asks that you send the same letter to Tel Aviv University, to which he is also applying for grad school. What basis do you have to refuse the letter? You can personally boycott TAU and refuse to send the letter, but what's your basis for not turning the letter into a generic one and letting the student send it himself?
Slippery slope. It's my basis, which means my opinion. My judgement.
And you are welcome to disagree with me; from two opinions we will smile and wave to each other.
Well, yes, but you are also an employee of a university that has rules and policies. No one has guaranteed you a job for life if you deviate from those policies.
Suppose a professor states that his policy is not to write letters of recommendation for blacks, Hispanics, Jews or Catholics? Yes, that's his opinion, but the university can have an opinion that such is a firing offense.
It's better for him to admit being a bigot and not writing them than writing negative ones that the students don't know about.
So what does any of that have to do with refusing to write a recommendation?
Student: "Will you write me a letter of recommendation?"
Professor: "No."
Student: Sadage
That's how the script goes. "No" is a final answer that doesn't need justification.
Ooooh, that’s an easy one. I’m a Democrat. If a former employee of mine is applying for a job with Kamala Harris, I would be happy to write a letter. If on the other hand a former employee of mine wanted to work for Trump, I would absolutely refuse to do anything to help. He can get a letter from someone else. My moral disapproval of Trump means I’m having nothing to do with it.
It's part of a professor's job to write letters of recommendation for their students. It's not part of your job as an employer. Of course, you aren't required to write a letter for someone you deem unworthy. But you shouldn't say "I will write you a letter for NARAL, but not National Right to Life." And in the case of boycotting Israeli universities, if that's against university policy, not only shouldn't you refuse, you shouldn't be able to refuse. And note, while it hasn't come up, this is my policy in my own life--if I would write a letter for a student, I will write it for any job or educational opportunity, subject to it (a) being lawful employment; and (b) allowing for a generic letter in extreme circumstances. And also in my own life, I never had a left-leaning professor decline to write letters for me for internships, scholarships, etc for opportunities they weren't on board with.
One could argue that, to the extent Tel Aviv University is in material support of war crimes / terrorism, it's not a lawful endeavor.
You could do that, if you wanted to sound like someone from another galaxy.
Israel has committed no war crimes. Nor are they terrorists.
They are defending themselves against terrorists who do commit war crimes. And are unapologetic about it.
The pager thing was textbook terrorism.
Nonsense. It was a magnificently well targeted attack on enemy combatants and the enemy command and control system.
It was approximately as magnificently well-targeted as Oct 7 or 9/11 was.
Courteous to do so, but not a job requirement.
I linked below to a case where a professor was disciplined for refusing to write a letter for a student to study in Israel. ISTM that making it not a job requirement would be problematic if a professor chose not to do so for verboten reasons.
"It’s part of a professor’s job to write letters of recommendation for their students."
Please point out where in my university contract it states that this is part of the terms of my employment. It's not there. I can refuse every request for a letter of recommendation without recourse.
You are imposing your own moral code on the rest of us. Please stop projecting.
anyone desperate enough to come to you for a recommendation should be lucky to get the job shaving pubic hair off the stiffs in the Morgue
I just got someone a clerkship at the US Court of Appeals but thank you for sharing.
I'll bet that pays really well, maybe one day they'll work their way up to the morgue job.
Well, that shows how much you know about it.
The basis is simple. Generic letters sent by the applicant are near worthless.
Here is a case a few years ago where a professor was disciplined for refusing to write a letter for a student who wanted to study in Israel.
"Supporting the academic aspirations of your student is fundamental to your responsibilities as a faculty member.
So you're a proud racist if this is the context you use to employ such things.
seems easy to decide: Change "Zionists" for "Blacks", "Homosexuals", "Women", the "Dutch".
A telling analogy fail.
Zionists would properly analogize to 'supporters of black people' not blacks.
It's a political position, not a demographic.
OK, switch it out with "supporters of black people."
Have you measurably helped your position with this analogy?
And then there is this: https://www.thecollegefix.com/portland-state-considers-divestment-after-protesters-cause-1-23-million-in-damages-to-library/
At the very least BDS faculty ought not be on grad committees.
Student comes to professor for recommendation. Professor replies, sorry, you chanted "Palestine Will Be Free From The River To The Sea" at several campus marches. Which to me means you support Jewish genocide. So no letter for you.
Permitted or not?
"I won't be able to speak to your personal attributes, but I can talk about the excellent paper you wrote in my Anthropology 101 class."
How do you address the next line of that hypothetical conversation?
"But Professor X, why can't you talk about my personal attributes in your letter of recommendation?"
"If you really insist, I will talk about your total lack of moral clarity and enthusiastic support for genocide. Are you sure you want me to do that?"
That would be being an asshole.
Just refuse to write the letter.
I think you missed the first part - "I won’t be able to speak to your personal attributes, but I can talk about the excellent paper you wrote in my Anthropology 101 class.”
The premise in the hypo is that writing the letter is part of the prof's job, and that they are willing or required to write a generic letter,
Fair point.
C_XY,
Because the comment about personal attributes is not part of my academic judgement.
But in general, if you agree to write a letter, the content is your choice, not the requesters.
"As a rule, the act of boycotting is not constitutionally protected, because it's considered an economic act, not a matter of free expression."
Let me just state this outright: "Lochnerism" was RIGHT, and our liberties will always be precarious if they even endure, until it is revived. Economic liberty is just that important to people who live in an economy, dependent on economic transactions in order to even live, let alone exercise their other liberties.
The lack of economic liberty undermines all other liberties.
Historically, and world wide, corruption is mainly economic. You get in the way until paid to get back out of the way, you divert resources to cronies, and you just sit there winking until unasked-for “donations” come in as prophylactics against your interference.
Fundamental Theorem of Government: Corruption is not an unfortunate side effect of the wielding of power. It is the purpose of it from day 1.
Of course the corruptions who went into government needed to get back in control of economics, so they could block things, until their spouses manifested latent investment savant abilities.
A Supreme Court ruling to that effect was inevitable. And thus a well-intentioned clause to let Congress stop states from stepping on each other economically, i.e. to keep the trade routes open, became empowered to activate the plague of humanity, blocking the trade routes until the latent investment superpowers emerge.
They emerge not at birth, or under stress, or at puberty. They emerge when the power to get in the way is activated.
the corruptions who went into government
You've got a screw loose.
All human history, and most of the current Earth, is this way. It's been brought to heel, somewhat, by a constitution and a free press. But this is vastly the way of human history.
I am not the one with the screw loose. It is just sad recognition of the state of reality. There's a reason politics is loaded with people who can lie convincingly. Politicians even here don't get rich on their salaries as Servants of the People.
Calling a group of people corruptions is itself fucked up.
That your evidence has never been anything more than handwaving appeals to history makes it worse.
Corruption says what?
As Holmes in his dissent, which was later proven correct, Lochner adopted a laissez-faire economics as the lodestone behind it's Constitutional interpretation.
It is a philosophy you agree with. So you think it's right. No originalism, no further thought needed.
You commit the same error you inveigh against the excesses of the Warren Court for doing.
You're a living Constitutionalist as much as any in that era, just for modern conservativism not 1960s liberalism.
Correct, and note that, as usual, Brett allows no room for judgment, complexity, treating different situations differently, differing values, social contracts, etc.
Plus, it's all absolute, in caps. If we don't have an uber-libertarian economic system we are serfs.
Because Brett knows the TRUTH.
Economic liberty is a classic 9th amendment right. Respected until a fad for central economic planning swept the world in the early 20th century, and it had to be repudiated as it got in the way.
Jacob Howard, introducing the 14th amendment, quotes judge Bushrod on what Privileges and Immunities are:
"Judge Washington says: “The next question is, whether this act infringes that section of the constitution which declares that ‘the citizens of each state shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states?’ The inquiry is, what are the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states? We feel no hesitation in confining these expressions to those privileges and immunities which are, in their nature, fundamental; which belong, of right, to the citizens of all free governments; and which have, at all times, been enjoyed by the citizens of the several states which compose this Union, from the time of their becoming free, independent, and sovereign. What these fundamental principles are, it would perhaps be more tedious than difficult to enumerate. They may, however, be all comprehended under the following general heads: Protection by the government; the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the right to acquire and possess property of every kind, and to pursue and obtain happiness and safety; subject nevertheless to such restraints as the government may justly prescribe for the general good of the whole. The right of a citizen of one state to pass through, or to reside in any other state, for purposes of trade, agriculture, professional pursuits, or otherwise; to claim the benefit of the writ of habeas corpus; to institute and maintain actions of any kind in the courts of the state; to take, hold and dispose of property, either real or personal; and an exemption from higher taxes or impositions than are paid by the other citizens of the state; may be mentioned as some of the particular privileges and immunities of citizens, which are clearly embraced by the general description of privileges deemed to be fundamental: to which may be added, the elective franchise, as regulated and established by the laws or constitution of the state in which it is to be exercised. These, and many others which might be mentioned, are, strictly speaking, privileges and immunities, and the enjoyment of them by the citizens of each state, in every other state, was manifestly calculated (to use the expressions of the preamble of the corresponding provision in the old articles of confederation) ‘the better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of the different states of the Union.’”
There is little question that economic liberty was considered a key component of individual liberty. And why not? Anything necessary to life has to be a basic liberty, because if the government can casually deprive you of the ability to live, it can leverage that to attack any other liberty.
So, when Congress decided to attack freedom of political speech back in 2002, (The 'Bipartisan' Campaign Reform Act) how did they do it? They set out to regulate spending money on speech.
If you can't pursue a livelihood, you can't LIVE.
Just tell the student, "I can't write a letter to ___ for you, but I of course will give you a generic letter of recommendation, and you can send it to whomever you wish."
Curious. Is it standard practice to write letters of recommendation to individual programs or schools the student is applying to? I can see that being burdensome if, say, the student has six applications.
And what difference does it make anyway? If the professor is recommending the student, then does it matter if he or she is applying to University X or University Y? Other than the address, what are the differences in the letters?
I frequently get requests to write such letters.
The difference can be that the program at the company or university is or is playing to the professional strength of the student.
The best letters say why the person recommended is ideal for the targeted university, company or government agency.
This would be a violation of state law in many states, could be a violation of the First Amendment at state universities, would violate university policies regarding academic freedom, and likely would violate federal and state antidiscrimination laws.
Not so. The courts haven't been friendly to this sort of "disparate impact" theory.
As is often the case in your posts, David, you make the argument much easier to win by defining your opponents’ views in the most maximalist, objectionable terms imaginable – and then tearing them down.
I’m not sure what precisely you mean by the “BDS movement,” or what particular tenets you would properly attribute to it (as opposed to inferring freely and loosely from what you suppose they believe). Perhaps we can start with what the Palestinian BDS National Committee says about their “academic boycott”:
So it seems right from the outset that you are attributing to the BDS Movement positions that they have expressly disclaimed. Once this has been clarified, the remainder of your McCarthyist approach to purging BDS supporters from the ranks of university power completely unravels.
That said, the PACBI guidelines are clear that participants in the academic boycott are expected not to provide letters of recommendation for students seeking to study in Israel. Thus, professors who refuse to provide letters of recommendation, solely on the basis of the student’s desire to attend a university in Israel that is subject to the boycott, at universities with an express anti-BDS policy, would seem to be in violation of that policy.
Who knew that the resistance could be so bureaucratic!
I don’t buy it, Simon.
First, I’m unconvinced that no one is boycotted just because of their “affiliation,” with (which I assume really means “employment by”) certain schools. Otherwise, what is the point of boycotting institutions, rather than just individuals who PACBI doesn’t like? My impression is that these boycotts often extend to the entire institution, including even faculty who are hostile to Israeli government policies.
Second, I don’t understand your next-to-last paragraph at all.
the PACBI guidelines are clear that participants in the academic boycott are expected not to provide letters of recommendation for students seeking to study in Israel.
OK.
Thus, professors who refuse to provide letters of recommendation, solely on the basis of the student’s desire to attend a university in Israel that is subject to the boycott, at universities with an express anti-BDS policy, would seem to be in violation of that policy.
The refusing professor is in violation of what policy? anti-BDS? No recommendations to study in Israel?
Finally, why does PACBI make such a suggestion at all? A student may think, reasonably, that some Israeli university provides the best opportunity to study his subject of interest, or perhaps there are financial or other considerations that make it attractive. Why punish that student? Isn’t that punishing an individual?
The statement you quote sounds a bit like a fig leaf to me.
First, I’m unconvinced that no one is boycotted just because of their “affiliation,” with (which I assume really means “employment by”) certain schools.
You can believe whatever you want, Bernard. I’m just looking at what the sponsors behind the “BDS movement” say about their aims and strategy, when it comes to an “academic boycott.” You’re free to look at the guidelines on your own, and you’re also free to assume that people, in practice, disregard those guidelines, based on whatever evidence to that effect (if any) that you happen to have at hand.
Suffice it to say, when it comes to applying the BDS principles to individuals generally “affiliated” with Israeli universities, PACBI draws a consistent line between official representatives of the universities and cooperation designed to lend legitimacy to the universities as institutions, on the one hand, and academics who are appearing in their own capacity, presenting their own work, on the other. Quoth the PACBI: “Mere affiliation of Israeli scholars to an Israeli academic institution is therefore not grounds for applying the boycott.”
Second, I don’t understand your next-to-last paragraph at all.
No, it’s not very clearly written.
What I am saying is this: PACBI expressly states that BDS participants should not provide letters of recommendation to students seeking to study at “complicit” Israeli universities. This means that (per David’s approach) any professor at a school with an anti-BDS policy is potentially in violation of that policy, if they seek to act in accordance with the PACBI’s guidelines on writing letters of recommendation.
PACBI’s guidelines (again) address your question about this policy choice. They argue that students who support the BDS movement should not attend “complicit” Israeli universities. A professor’s obligation not to provide letters of recommendation to attend such universities is derivative of that principle.
I wouldn’t consider it a means of “punishing” students so much as calling upon professors not to take action that would indirectly serve to “normalize” complicit Israeli universities.
PACBI’s guidelines (again) address your question about this policy choice. They argue that students who support the BDS movement should not attend “complicit” Israeli universities. A professor’s obligation not to provide letters of recommendation to attend such universities is derivative of that principle.
And students who don't support BDS? After all, those seeking to study in Israel are unlikely to be supporters.
I wouldn’t consider it a means of “punishing” students so much as calling upon professors not to take action that would indirectly serve to “normalize” complicit Israeli universities.
Taking a leaf from your comment, you can consider it whatever you want. Regardless, it does, as a matter of plain fact, punish the student who wants to study in Israel. Anyone can disregard known, indisputable, consequences of their actions. That doesn't make those consequences disappear, or do anything, really, except let people absolve themselves, in their own minds, of responsibility.
And students who don’t support BDS? After all, those seeking to study in Israel are unlikely to be supporters.
I am not trying to defend how PACBI has chosen to draft their guidelines. I am taking issue only with David’s intellectually dishonest OP.
Taking a leaf from your comment, you can consider it whatever you want. Regardless, it does, as a matter of plain fact, punish the student who wants to study in Israel.
You seem to be having difficulty understanding the logical structure of David’s OP and the purpose of my comment responding, and you are trying my patience in trying to clarify things for you.
I don’t consider the PACBI’s policy vis-a-vis “punishing students” as any different from a group of nuns insisting that they are not “punishing” women employees when they refuse to certify that they do not want to provide access to contraceptive healthcare for those women employees (so as to enable those women to get contraceptive healthcare from insurers directly). The primary purpose of the PACBI guidelines is to provide guidelines for people who want to abide by the academic boycott, to use whatever is within their power to effect that boycott. That it may have a secondary effect on ambitious students who do not share their professors’ political leanings is beside the point.
Sorry to be trying your patience, but of course you are under no obligation to respond to my comments.
I will repeat, however, that the fact you consider PACBI's policies as equivalent to the nuns' policy you describe does not make it so.
Look, I have been in too many detailed, semantic arguments with reading-comprehension-challenged people today to get into the nitty-gritty on why the term “punishment” is not applicable to the reasonably foreseeable but not directly intended second-order effects of decisions made for express, known moral reasons. If you can’t understand why that’s a bad-faith assertion on your own, I’m not going to waste any more energy trying to make that point carefully.
So I am just going to do you the honor you’ve done me and respond in kind: “Nuh-uh!”
"so much as calling upon professors not to take action that would indirectly serve to “normalize” complicit Israeli universities."
As usual, when the claim is that you don't want something 'normalized', it's often something that is, in fact, already perfectly normal, and has been all along, that somebody is trying to "abnormalize", as it were.
Do you have anything interesting to say, Brett?
"the internationally-accepted definition of academic freedom as adopted by the United Nations Committee on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights (UNESCR)."
OK, what is that definition? I've been poking around but can't seem to find it. Can anyone assist?
“The Palestinian academic boycott targets Israeli academic institutions, not individual academics. Supporters of justice around the world may call for a boycott or protest against an individual academic, Israeli or otherwise, in response to his/her complicity in, responsibility for, or advocacy of violations of international law or other human rights violations.”
This is the kind of position I’d expect from the BDSM, I mean BDS types. They “merely” want to proscribe Israeli universities, plus individuals who disagree with a one-sided and biased definition of “human rights” by which Israeli self-defense is wrong but anti-Israeli terrorism is not worth complaining about.
This is the kind of position I’d expect from the BDSM, I mean BDS types.
And this is the kind of statement I’d expect from someone who is already committed to their conclusion, and who cannot by dissuaded by careful reasoning leading to a contrary one.
David’s OP makes the argument that professors committed to the BDS movement are likely to discriminate on the basis of national identity or ethnicity. I have highlighted how the “BDS movement” expressly disclaims this. Your response (as was Bernard’s) is to say: “Principles be damned! They’ll do the bad things anyway!” So how in the world could you be refuted? They’re damned either way.
At least David has the self-awareness to recognize how silly that would sound. He just makes a strawman argument based on premises he doesn’t expect his audience to carefully examine.
I’m not Bernstein, and I don’t have to defend his arguments.
The “bad things” the BDSers want to do are outlined in the quoted material you yourself provided. You're defending them from one charge by giving evidence, out of their own mouths, proving them guilty an *another* charge.
The only thing you *don’t* provide is the UN definition of academic freedom which the BDS group cites in its statement. Why not give everyone a link?
I found what may be the UN definition of academic freedom to which the BDSers refer. It’s from UNESCO, not UNESCR, but be that as it may, here’s some discussion of the relevant principles:
https://www.unesco.org/en/articles/protecting-academic-freedom-relevant-ever
These principles are broad enough to be, shall we say, in some tension with the BDS outfit which claims to support it. How can an institution enjoy academic freedom if it’s being choked off from intellectual sustenance from the international academic community as the BDSers want? And what would a boycott of an individual professor based on his/her opinions look like, and how would it be reconcilable with UNESCO’s principles?
The article has this quote in support of academic freedom:
"As Mr. George Haddad, President of Paris 1 Panthéon – Sorbonne University, reminded everyone 'the higher education world is a world of freedom: freedom to innovate, freedom to create, freedom to dream and freedom to share'."
How do Israeli universities have the "freedom to share" if their academic work is being boycotted?
I'm not asking you to "defend" David's arguments. I'm just pointing out that your nonsense is even worse than his.
I didn't supply a link to the "UN definition of academic freedom" because... I'm not your personal research assistant? Why in the world would you think that you could just launch a query into the ether and expect me to track things down for you? Especially when it's not actually that hard to do in the first place?
As I noted to Bernard, all of your questions/challenges to me are better directed to the BNC/PACBI's website, where the guidelines walk through their reasoning and address all of the points you're making to me. I am not here to defend them, and I am less than interested in what the peanut gallery has to say about the internal consistency of the academic boycott. I'm just reporting what they say themselves.
You “defended” the BDS people against charges of ethnic discrimination by showing them supporting attacks on academic freedom, the attacks to be launched either institutionally or personally.
“Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I will show that my client isn’t a purse-snatcher, he’s a pickpocket!”
And your quote invoked the UN definition of academic freedom, but you simply let the citation sit there, doing nothing, because neither your source nor you yourself bothered to explain what the standard was and how the BDS people were complying with it. It turns out they weren’t, which maybe is why they didn’t go into details about it.
You “defended” the BDS people against charges of ethnic discrimination by showing them supporting attacks on academic freedom, the attacks to be launched either institutionally or personally.
Again, you are mistaking me as presenting the guidelines as though they were my own recommendation to BDS participants. I don't particularly care to explain to you why it would be obvious that an academic boycott would include boycotting individual academics only if and when those academics actively provide intellectual support for the harms that the BDS movement is designed to help end. Since you're more interested in mischaracterizing their position than in understanding it, I'll just let you stew in your own confusion.
And your quote invoked the UN definition of academic freedom, but you simply let the citation sit there, doing nothing,...
You are such a petulant child. I responded to David's post with text from PACBI designed to rebut a particularly problematic inference. Yes, the block of text included a reference that I did not bother to footnote or hyperlink for people to review themselves. No, I did not bother to provide a link to the relevant materials when you asked for it.
So the fuck what? Why are you expecting me to supply the materials you think you need in order to demonstrate that the PACBI guidelines are internally inconsistent, when I'm not even here to say otherwise? Why are you continuing to bitch about it?
Are you people really this juvenile?
As I say, you’re choosing to defend the BDS people from an accusation of purse-snatching by calling them pickpockets.
“Again, you are mistaking me as presenting the guidelines as though they were my own recommendation to BDS participants.”
I did nothing of the sort. I *did* point out that you’re defending these BDS types with a quote showing them attacking academic freedom (even by their own definition, if President Haddad’s comment about “freedom to share” is accurate).
As I say, you’re choosing to defend the BDS people from an accusation of purse-snatching by calling them pickpockets.
Christ, you are dense.
No, I am saying, "The academic boycott is targeted at institutions, not individuals, and the guidelines expressly state that they reject anti-semitism or discriminating against people solely because they work at Israeli universities. So David's inference that BDS adherents cannot be expected to comply with federal non-discrimination law is invalid."
You are the one trying to make hay out of their statement that they support academic freedom. You are the one exaggerating their caveat re: "common sense" boycotts against individuals who actively support the occupation of Palestinian territories and the oppression of Palestinians into a hypocritical stance.
I am just pointing out, in response, that you are arguing in bad faith, or an idiot. One of those two.
“You are the one trying to make hay out of their statement that they support academic freedom”
So I am, how did you guess? But why does that offend *you?* You didn’t say they supported academic freedom, but *they* did, and by quoting them you made their remarks fully relevant. So I’m saying *they* don’t support academic freedom. I’ll presume that you do, since you never claimed to belong to this BDS outfit.
Maybe you think I should be talking about Bernstein? But what if I don’t think he’s making the best cast against the BDS types?
Maybe the BDS people could claim they aren’t illegally boycotting anyone because they’re Jews, but those who are in state schools are certainly announcing an illegal boycott against Israel-supporting wrongthinkers. (Private schools can, I’ll stipulate, engage in ideological boycotts because they’re not subject to the First Amendment.) Again, it goes back to purse-snatchers versus pickpockets: if they aren't violating the Civil Rights statute, the ones in state schools are threatening the First Amendment.
“a hypocritical stance”
I’m certainly sorry if I gave the impression I was calling the BDS people hypocrites; I think plenty of them have an internally-consistent set of beliefs. Bad beliefs, and not necessarily publicly-acknowledged beliefs, but beliefs nonetheless. But at least it’s an ethos, eh?
So I am, how did you guess? But why does that offend *you?*
Because the claim you are making is being made in bad faith, is built upon layers of misreading and invalid reasoning, and is utterly irrelevant to anything I’ve come here to say. You’re prodding me to do all of this work in responding to you, to debate something I don’t even care about. It’s fucking irritating, and childish.
Again, it goes back to purse-snatchers versus pickpockets: if they aren’t violating the Civil Rights statute, the ones in state schools are threatening the First Amendment.
This is just stupid.
I’m certainly sorry if I gave the impression I was calling the BDS people hypocrites...
This is all you’ve been saying, this entire thread, you pin-headed buffoon! Why do you think I “got that impression”? You have been pulling me into this asinine debate about how PACBI claims to adhere to the principles of “academic freedom” but then refuses to follow them when it comes to scholars defending Israel’s actions vis-a-vis Palestine. Of course I got that impression! That’s your whole claim!
What the fuck are we even doing here?
Are there any important schools in countries hostile to Israel to test the opposite situation? If relations with Israeli academics were cut off I would notice. I've worked with them. I might not notice a severing of academic ties with Lebanon, the Palestinian Authority, and Qatar.
"As a rule, the act of boycotting is not constitutionally protected, because it's considered an economic act, not a matter of free expression."
If my spending decisions are not Constitutionally protected, then the state can compel me to purchase products from Israeli companies.
Can it?
Why wouldn't they be able to? Courts have largely rejected constitutional protections for economic freedom. (As opposed to, say, sexual freedom). I'm not sure why the difference, but there it is.
Controlling economics is core to the corruption business model, key to all human misery through all time.
If they can force you to do one thing, they can force you to do anything.
Had your vaccine yet? Guess what? It was purchased in your name.
I'm not aware of any state that's tried to make people buy any particular kind of product, so it's rather a moot issue. But let's say a state required everyone to buy 10% of their groceries from certified women-owned companies. There may be some state or federal grounds to challenging the constitutionality of such a law, but I doubt saying that you have ethical objections to buying from women is going to win you the case on First Amendment grounds, even if it's true.
Uh, you never heard of Obama and the Affordable Care Act?
The Affordable Care Act was a federal law, not a state law.
If my spending decisions are not Constitutionally protected,
They are not. The government can ban products from the market, or ban (or place prohibitive tariffs on) imports from certain countries. It can also forbid you from traveling to some places.
Can the government forbid me from choosing not to buy Israeli products?
The people who drafted the 14th amendment certainly thought they were, but, of course, the Slaugherhouse Court was pretty determined to frustrate their aims.
Since when do professors have any obligation to write any letter of recommendation for anyone?
yeah, right, you tell Carmella Soprano you already wrote one for a deserving Trans-gender Afro-Amurican, with Trisomy 21, the Sickle Cell, and Achondroplastic Dwarfism.
Professor Bernstein — Would you be okay with a public university policy in support of the people of Gaza, which insisted on none but generic letters of recommendation for student supporters of Israel? And which likewise barred from university administrative jobs all professors who were overt supporters of Israel?
I do not ask that question to suggest a moral equivalence. I ask it to better understand how you think your policy advocacy can work without insisting on a particular moral disparity among parties who are in fact in contention over morality.
It seems to me you so strongly believe in the moral superiority of the pro-Israel position that you want it enacted into policy, and maybe into law.
I confess that I am having trouble following these arguments, so would greatly welcome anything more you have to say. But I reject now any allegation that I insist on moral equivalence.
The proper analogy or comparison would be a public university policy in opposition to a boycott of Gaza and/or academics from Gazan universities.
I don't think speak for DB, but my guess is he would be ok with preventing professors who call for such a boycott of Gaza from serving in university administrative positions. such as Deans, members of hiring committees, etc..
Let me suggest this:
If a woke university decides to adopt a robust policy of academic freedom, so that professors and students can without fear espouse unwoke ideas, then I’d be sympathetic to pleas from BDS types to take advantage of the same robust freedom protections.
BUT – if a university is into suppression of unwoke ideas, then I’d say they should be pressured to include BDS under the heading of unwoke ideas and subject to the same sort of suppression.
Otherwise – and I know this is difficult to envision – we could have a situation of "asymmetrical warfare" where professors and students could be punished for saying marriage is between a man or a woman, or that racial discrimination by the government is wrong, while these same students and professors can indulge in Jew-baiting “anti-Zionism” to their hearts’ content.