The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
The Trump Leaks Are Far Worse Than The Dobbs Leak.
Knives are out for Chief Justice Roberts, and poor Justice Alito.
A short while ago, I published a lengthy post detailing the New York Times's latest reporting on the three Trump cases: Trump v. Anderson, Fischer v. United States, and Trump v. United States. Here, I will offer several big-picture observations.
First, this leak is far worse than the Dobbs leak. In Dobbs, one or more people exfiltrated a draft opinion from inside the Court, and somehow that opinion made its way to Politico. (Maybe Jodi Kantor can tell us how that happened!) It was devastating for the draft decision to become public, and it nearly led to the assassination of Justice Kavanaugh. But the aftermath of the leak was swift and overwhelming: the Court was placed on lockdown, and a sweeping investigation was launched to find the culprit(s). But the Trump leaks are systematic and thorough. We have insights of confidential memoranda, detailed conversations at conferences, KBJ's changed vote, Justice Alito losing the Fischer majority, and information about many Roberts clerks were working on the case. This tapestry would require insights from so many different people. Moreover, all of this comes after the Dobbs leak when Chief Justice Roberts (apparently) put strict limitations on access to Court information. What did all of those measures accomplish? Apparently not much.
Second, and I alluded to this point in my earlier post, Justice Kagan is absent from this reporting. There is absolutely nothing about what she thought or did during these deliberations. There are insights into all of the other eight Justices, but nothing on Kagan. This isn't new. Back in the day when Biskupic got the scoops, Kagan was also largely absent. I think it likely that Kagan, or at least Kagan surrogates, are behind these leaks. If Kagan is willing to publicly undermine her colleagues in a speech at the Ninth Circuit, why would she do any less off-the-record? Moreover, this entire story is consistent with Kagan's MO, and describing the Court as bending over backwards for Trump. On that point, I would be willing to place a bet that the three Trump appointees rule against Trump in any election case that comes to the high court. Like in the tax return cases, Justices Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett will gladly knock Trump off the scene and declare their independence. Would you take the opposite bet?
Third, I am still flummoxed how Fischer was simply taken away from Justice Alito. Was this reassignment voluntary? Or was this like a scene in the Godfather, where Roberts made an offer that Alito could not refuse? It is difficult to imagine how difficult this term was for Alito. Barely two years ago, he was on top of the world, holding together a five-member bloc in Dobbs. Now he had only four majority opinions, and lost three! Roberts had seven signed opinions, and authored Anderson!
Fourth, I am still struck by the granular reporting that all four of Roberts's clerks were working on the opinion till the last minute. Was this some effort to heap praise on them, for shuttling back-and-forth between chambers? Or was it some attempt to place blame on them. For those who keep track of such things, here are the four:
1. Jason Bell (Harvard 2021 / Kovner (E.D.N.Y.) / Higginson)
2. Alexander Cave (Harvard 2020 / Srinivasan)
3. Benjamin Daus (Yale 2021 / Kovner (E.D.N.Y.) / Thapar)
4. Sakina Haji (Chicago 2021 / Newsom)
Fifth, we do not get much insights into Justice Barrett, other than that she frustrates her conservative colleagues. She is non-commital at conference, and then decides to break out on her own, with Justice Kagan as the wind beneath her wings. Justice Barrett continues to learn on the job, and figure things out as she goes along.
Sixth, Justice Jackson comes across as a savvy operator. She was in the majority for Fisher, as a way to get the Court to remand the case to Judge Chutkun. And I think she was poised to join the majority in Anderson on the "officer" stuff. Something happened there, but Kantor does not tell us. She is playing the game quite well.
I will close by renewing my call for Chief Justice Roberts to resign. He will never be John Marshall, or Fred Vinson for that matter. Historians will judge him harshly as a failed chief justice who kept digging his hole deeper and deeper, completely oblivious to how he is actually perceived. The only path forward is for him to stop caring about "institutionalism" and decide each case as a judge would decide the case. This game will never work.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
There were leaks during the Dobbs case about what was happening behind the scenes. Conservative outlets referenced what the conservative chambers were thinking.
We also had a whole draft opinion.
Another commenter referenced the leaks during the PPACA cases.
But, hey, I'm all for Chief Justice Roberts resigning. I have said so elsewhere before now. I grant that I want Biden or Harris there to replace him. He did enough to aid and abet the conservative movement to have a Republican president do so.
Plus, he was there longer than his old boss. 18 years is long enough. Think of it as a Washington "two-term" move that amounts to a de facto term limit.
"On that point, I would be willing to place a bet that the three Trump appointees rule against Trump in any election case that comes to the high court."
We shall see. His cases are usually so lame that it won't be too hard. Plus, they also gave him two major election wins this term already.
I mean they let Ken Paxton get away with Texas v Pennsylvania without sanctioning him and every lawyer who signed the brief or AGs who supported it as an amicus. That was a gift to Trump-world from SCOTUS.
People with legal theories I don't like should be sanctioned! -- LTG
In fact, they should be criminalized! -- DOJ
Ken Paxton, on behalf of the state of Texas made false factual claims, downplayed the terrible assumptions in support of the ridiculous statistical analysis saying there was a 1 in 4 quadrillion chance Biden could win, and then asked for a batshit remedy where he claimed that a state can ask the court to cancel the votes of another state. The lawsuit was so bad that the Texas SG declined to join it.
This wasn’t just a novel legal theory: it’s using false facts to request an insane remedy based on an insane standing theory. It violates several rules of professional conduct, and yes, is sanctionable just like if I filed a civil fraud lawsuit based on false facts and then asked that the court imprison the defendant.
I'm not so sure it is Kagan herself -- she is not stupid and has to realize if there is nothing about her it is going to point the arrow of suspicion right at her. A good leaker will include some not-really-damaging stuff about himself so as to avoid this.
Now as to her clerks -- that would not surprise me.
And this bullshyte isn't going to end until someone gets disbarred.
How does reciprocity work with being disbarred from the SCOTUS bar -- does it also get honored by state bars?
I agree it is very unlikely Kagan herself. She returns from Conference, talks to her clerks and....
All of this weakens the Fridays alone together discussing cases. The door is closed now and the eyes become slanted, the expressions questioning and the productivity poisoned.
Kagan, by winks and nods. Or she would fire any clerk who did this.
L, as they say, OL.
If John Roberts has lost Josh Blackman, he has lost
middle AmericaJohn Eastman!Rumors are flying that Chief Justice Roberts is now calling for Josh Blackman to resign.
In solidarity with Josh, I repeat my call for Cindy Crawford to go on a date with me and for Warren Buffett to give me 1000 shares of Berkshire A stock.
I thoroughly disapprove of court leaks no matter who is doing them. But what’s really funny is the court conservatives who, after spending two decades acting more like political ward heelers than judges, are shocked - shocked I say - to find that if they’re going to be political hacks, so will liberals. Ah well, what goes around comes around.
Given my druthers I’d far rather both sides dropped the politicking in black robes. But since conservatives don’t seem to be able to help themselves they should not expect better in return.
Given my druthers I’d far rather both sides dropped the politicking in black robes. But since conservatives don’t seem to be able to help themselves they should not expect better in return.
I don't view it as being that the conservative judges and justices can't "help themselves" to being partisan, but that some of them don't make any effort at all to hold back their politics. Given the four decade long history of conservative movement donors and legal activist efforts to get conservative judges onto the bench, I think it is a feature, and not a bug, that some conservatives on the bench are clearly so partisan.
Fine, just don’t complain when the other side responds in kind. Conservatives won’t have a majority on the court forever, at which time you may come to realize that all these norms conservatives are having so much fun blowing up were there for a reason.
"If he didn't want to be raped, he shouldn't be such a cute 8 year old wearing those skimpy shorts!"
You've posted something intended for your family group chat to the wrong place again...
Huh? This was after decades of leftists deciding that the constitution enacted their policy preference, from abortion to gay marriage to all sorts of things.
People who objected were told that complaints of judicial activism were just ways of saying we didn't like the decisions.
That's a perfectly valid perspective, but you really shouldn't abandon it when the shoe's on the other foot.
There’s a difference between legitimate policy differences over what the Constitution means and that’s not what I’m talking about. Much as I disagree with Dobbs it is one interpretation.
I’m talking about blatant result oriented favoritism that favors Republican candidates . Twenty years ago nobody would have thought presidential immunity was a thing. Or that special counsels were unconstitutional. Or that gutting the voting rights act or upholding gerrymandering could be squared with democratic norms. And those are the decisions that will ultimately come back to bite conservatives in the butt, probably when you least expect it.
Four conservative justices for a long time wanted to keep partisan gerrymandering cases away. Kennedy left it open but never found a case where he was willing to bite.
Vieth v. Jubelirer was decided in 2004. My complaint there is that if they wanted to let the political branches decide these cases, they should have been consistent. See, Shelby v. Holder.
"Twenty years ago nobody would have thought... that special counsels were unconstitutional"
Actually, Scalia did. More than 20 years ago.
https://fedsoc.org/commentary/publications/the-independent-counsel-act-an-unconstitutional-delegation-of-power-of-judges
There's more, but this is just one instance. It's worth looking up "exactly" what was thought back then.
Yes, and I forget if Scalia was all by himself on that case or if he had Thomas too. Twenty years ago, Scalia's views were considered completely out of the mainstream.
So, we've gone from nobody to...
All right, I suppose no opinion is so out there that somebody somewhere doesn't hold it, so technically "nobody believes the earth is flat" is hyperbole rather than literal fact.
Twenty years ago, the Scalia view was considered well outside the mainstream. That the most extremist justice of his era disagreed does not make his views mainstream.
No. That case was about the independent counsel statute, not about an ordinary special counsel.
A distinction without real difference, given the conversation.
"The terms 'special prosecutor', 'independent counsel', and 'special counsel' have the same fundamental meaning, and their use (at least at the federal level in the U.S.) is generally differentiated by the time period to which they are being applied."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_counsel#:~:text=In%20the%20United%20States%2C%20a,for%20the%20usual%20prosecuting%20authority.
I know in armchair law legal concepts don't actually matter, but in real life, they do. The terms do not in fact have the same meaning, notwithstanding what a random Wikipedia editor wrote. The distinction is fundamental. Scalia argued that the independent counsel statute was unconstitutional because of specific features of the independent counsel statute. (Hint: the "independent" part.)
Not because appointing a special prosecutor was itself problematic.
And that changes my central point how? (Assuming you're right; I didn't actually look it up to see if you are.)
It changes your point because your argument was that Scalia held some radical view on the issue of special prosecutors >20 years ago that nobody else held until now. But the view he had — though in dissent at the time — is now the mainstream view across the spectrum, but that view was not that special counsels are unconstitutional.
That is not the mainstream view across the spectrum. Most of the judges that have looked at it have reached the contrary conclusion; Aileen Cannon appears out there all by herself.
Sigh. I point out that you're mixing up independent counsels and special prosecutors, and in response you do it again. The independent counsel statute is expired, does not exist, and is widely regarded as unconstitutional now. Cannon's ruling was about an ordinary special prosecutor, not the independent counsel at issue in Morrison, which is what Scalia's opinion was about.
Scalia's issue was that the independent counsel was independent - of the executive branch that is. He was appointed and supervised by the judicial branch rather than the AG, who was able only to remove him for good cause or to request the court to act, and Scalia felt this arrangement improperly delegated executive power to the judiciary. The special counsel regulations don't have the same problems.
"I’m talking about blatant result oriented favoritism that favors Republican candidates ... or upholding gerrymandering."
https://statecourtreport.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/Grisham%20-%20Opinion%20-%2009.22.2023.pdf
What does the Supreme Court of New Mexico have to do with anything?
SarcastrO beat me to it. Armchair apparently thinks that if he can find someone else somewhere who kinda sorta did something similar it excuses whatever bad behavior we were actually discussing.
Your argument was it was "blatant result oriented favoritism that favors Republican candidates "
That No one could hold "upholding gerrymandering could be squared with democratic norms."
And yet you clearly see Democrats doing it.
Except for the minor detail that the New Mexico Supreme Court opinion came four years after Rucho v Common Cause, in which the US Supreme Court upheld partisan gerrymandering. So your citation to it is misplaced for two reasons. First, it appears the Democrats on the NM Supreme Court (assuming the NM Supreme Court is in fact majority Democrat; I didn't look it up) were following the lead of the Republicans on the US Supreme Court. As I said, these partisan decisions will come back to bite Republicans in the butt.
And second, my actual comment was that twenty years ago, nobody would have thought etc etc etc, so your citation to a 2024 case does nothing to disprove my point.
As with your failure to understand that mild hyperbole is a valid rhetorical device, you now don't seem to understand that what people are doing now is irrelevant to a discussion about what the norms used to be.
We've never criminally prosecuted a former President before, and there were grounds for every Democratic President back to at least Kennedy (who was also dead).
It's one thing to chant "lock her up" -- it's another thing to actually try to do it...
"It’s one thing to chant “lock her up” "
Ed knows what he says shouldn't be taken seriously.
Presidential immunity has always been a "thing". As is Judicial immunity, which makes one shake their head that any Justice would not have agreed with Presidential immunity. But then it was Trump, so they couldn't help themselves to dissent. So according to the dissent, they too can be charged in a state court (at least) once they retire, for anything they ruled on which harmed that state and/or its citizens. Immunity is not in the Constitution for judges or the Justices.
And having to listen to Sotomayor talk about 'democracy', a word to be found nowhere in the Constitution. We are a representative Republic.
Assassination attempt sound a little overblown (Trump suffered an assassination attempt); assassination plan?
Sweeping investigation to find the culprits? Hardly, and no "culprits" have been found to date.
Well, the perp is being charged with "attempting to assassinate a US Justice" so "assassination attempt" seems fair.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/27/politics/kavanaugh-roske-arrest-warrant/index.html
Initially, he thought he was going to kill three of them...
"Initially, he thought he was going to kill three of them…"
Would have made hoboe's day.
' it nearly led to the assassination of Justice Kavanaugh'
Give...us...a... fucking...break
Right, an angry Democrat with a gun stalking his home... no worries guys!
An angry right-winger once murdered a federal judge’s son, and had Sotomayor on a hit list. Blackman and the right didn’t give one single shit.
"once murdered"
Get real dude. Give me a break.
That really happened. And you didn’t give a shit then. And you don’t give a shit now.
Give…us…a… fucking…break
What. No seriously what are you going on about? Did it or did it not happen and did you give a shit? Yes or no?
hobie 4 hours ago
Flag Comment
Mute User
‘ it nearly led to the assassination of Justice Kavanaugh’
Give…us…a… fucking…break
----------
dipshit
I truly don’t understand what you’re on about? Did you suffer some brain injury?
The start of this thread was some dumbass dismissing that Lefty wacko who was attempting to assassinate Kavanaugh.
So applied his treatment to your defense of him.
Holy crap.
I didn’t defend him. At all. I just noted that neither Blackman nor you cared about an actual successful murder of a federal judge’s kid by a right winger and that person had planned to kill sotomayor.
You put “once murdered” in scare quotes like you didn’t believe it happened. And then said give me a break.
You blew it off as no big deal. Which proves my point about you: you’re a huge piece of shit.
So I gave it the same treatment that opened this thread.
Glad to see youre too stupid and still arent getting it
And you’re a sociopath.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esther_Salas
White supremacist is ignorant of something.
In other words, sun set to rise in east tomorrow.
Wikipedia? lol what no snopes or politifact or reddit or dailykos links?
It was a crime and a tragedy. And federal judges, true to their character, exploited the tragedy to get special treatment for themselves, even though there's no evidence that judges are at greater risk of violence than anyone else.
I'm not sure we put added sanctions or protections for attacks on certain public officials or employees because of a higher risk, but rather because of the threat to order such attacks may engender. As an analogy, disrupting the board meeting of a major private company where a CEO is being chosen may warrant a lesser punishment than interrupting a meeting of Congress where a new President is being chosen.
Why?
What if the board is attempting to -- say -- deal with a nuke plant that might melt down and kill lots of people. And it isn't the nuke plant that is the most dangerous -- a lot of chemical plants and oil refineries can go "bang" in a big time bad way.
Or say a railroad that needs to make a decision as to what they are going to do about a wrecked train in Ohio? Congress can meet next week and vote on the new President and it won't harm anything -- it's still going to be a couple weeks MORE before he takes office -- but the people of New Something, Ohio don't have a week.
I'd say disrupting that meeting is worse. Or disrupting one of the informational briefings about Three Mile Island back when that was an issue.
"What if the board is attempting to — say — deal with a nuke plant that might melt down and kill lots of people. And it isn’t the nuke plant that is the most dangerous — a lot of chemical plants and oil refineries can go “bang” in a big time bad way."
It's like someone fed a gerbil cocaine, put it in a box and shook it up and then put it in front of a keyboard.
"I’m not sure we put added sanctions or protections for attacks on certain public officials or employees because of a higher risk, but rather because of the threat to order such attacks may engender."
Judges lobbied to place restrictions on their personal information being posted on the internet, with nary a car for the families of non-judges who might be exposed by having their info being posted on the internet.
HaHa! You mean the guy who called the police on himself and turned himself in? If only the patriot hero rednecks who stormed the Capitol had been so cooperative
He only did it because there were cops present.
Had there been cops present (in the numbers there usually are) on Jan 6th, nothing would have happened.
Democrat terrorists: see police, give up
Republican terrorists: see police, beat them
Wasn't some of Obama's very own advisors convicted domestic terrorists?
No. This has been yet another edition of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
The Weathermen, look it up you lying Talmudist.
"The Weathermen" were not "Obama's very own advisors." Look it up, you inbred nazi fuck.
We really should stop trying to blame people other than assassins and would-be assassins for assignations and assassination attempts.
There's a truth to this, but also some to the argument that the ideas that motivate bad actions have sources. Maybe it's best to ask, is it foreseeable that some ideas are more likely to motivate people to bad actions than others? I mean, we already hold people accountable when their speech is an imminent encouragement of bad actions, if it's only the bad actor who is at fault this doesn't make much sense.
We hold people accountable if their speech is intended to, and likely to, incite imminent lawless action.
The problem with your position is that people are motivated to find such foreseeability in their opponents' speech, but not their own.
Remember the people who were sure that Sarah Palin putting crosshairs on a map incited the shooting of Gabby Giffords, but thought it was ridiculous when people claimed that Biden saying Trump had a bullseye on him incited the Trump shooting?
Or maybe it's your boy Harlan Thomas dishing while on his lavish junkets. That ever occur to you? Or does he just receive instructions while on them?
“I would be willing to place a bet that the three Trump appointees rule against Trump in any election case that comes to the high court. Like in the tax return cases, Justices Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett will gladly knock Trump off the scene and declare their independence. Would you take the opposite bet?”
Well that’s a dumb hypothetical because 1) Dems always release their tax returns so they’d never be in that situation and 2) the Trump election cases that went to SCOTUS, especially Texas v Pennsylvania, were complete and total shams that should have resulted in sanctions from SCOTUS. No Democratic election lawyer would file something like that and no Democratic campaign would try and do that.
Really???
Look into Congresswoman Lori Trahan's (D-MA) use of a joint checking account and her rich husband's money being illegally shifted to her (first) Primary campaign.
It's just that everything is OK if you are a Democrat.
Lol I like how you needed to go back to 2019 for your proof because if you did just this year, you’d have convictions of a democratic senator and a democratic president’s son.
No, see, the thing about it is, the fact that the Democratic-linked criminal defendants were tried and convicted expediently, while the Republican-linked ones continue to mill about in pre-trial motions, really just goes to show how the cases against the Republicans are shoddy, with no support at all, just politically-motivated, etc., etc.
HOW LONG did it take to FINALLY get something on that Democratic Senator???
And neither conviction was for campaign finance stuff, which I *think* is what Trump's 43 felonies purport to be.
Put down the ether-soaked handkerchief, Grampa.
DJT’s 34 felony convictions are for NY state crimes for falsification of business records.
He falsified business records in furtherance of getting elected, yes, but the fundamental crime was cooking the Trump Org books and getting caught.
That's an example of a Democratic campaign filing a frivolous lawsuit?
Really. What's there to "look into"? There was nothing illegal, as the Ethics Committee investigation found. (Note that it was Donald Trump's DOJ in 2019 that did not find anything to prosecute for.)
They will vote against Trump no matter the law, their lives are at stake.
There was literally no law whatsoever that says a state can ask the Supreme Court to throw out the election results in another state.
It's right there next to the law that said abortion can't be banned.
And yet, the cases discussed here show they will often vote for Trump.
Why is it white supremacists can be counted on to be so demonstrably dumb?
Gee, Prof. Blackman, your subhead says the knives are out for Chief Justice Roberts, and your final paragraph says Roberts should resign.
Blame the victim, why don't you?
FWIW:
Shots fired at Trump National Golf Club with former president on site
Per The Daily Mail
Probably one of those amazing diverse Secret Service agents pulling a Barney Fife with their gun.
An unrelated shooting between two dudes far away from Trump. Great story.
"FBI says it’s investigating ‘what appears to be an attempted assassination’ against Trump in Florida"
https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/15/politics/donald-trump-safe-shots/index.html
How many times are you nuts going to try to kill Trump?
"...you nuts..."
You wouldn't be insinuating yet another lie, would you? That would be so....entirely on-brand for you and your ilk.
The first registered-republican shot his earlobe, got plugged. Who knows who these latest goofballs are
Well the first one was an anti-immigrant accelerationist. So not us nuts. And if you were going with nuts who want to get people killed maybe you should stop trying to start a pogrom against Haitians in Ohio
No, you nuts.
You spent the last 8 years demonizing Trump, saying he was a existential danger to the nation, saying the world was going to end if he became President again and he needed to be stopped at all costs.
And now when “suddenly” there are two assassination attempts in a little more than 3 months, suddenly you’re like "well, let's wait" “oh it just happened, not us” "This sort of thing just happens, time to move on".
No. You nuts, your extremist language and attitude, you’re the threat to the republic here.
“No. You nuts, your extremist language and attitude, you’re the threat to the republic here.”
Lol fuck off. I’m not about to be lectured by a dipshit who supports a party who routinely uses extreme language against not only their electoral opponents but also against random groups of people. Trump literally calls Kamala a communist and won’t condemn fucking bomb threats made based on the hysteria he and his fellow travelers gin up. There have been actual mass shootings by people using trumpian rhetoric about immigration. Remember El Paso? Tree of Life? Buffalo? Yeah that’s what I thought.
Fuck you. Seriously. The dish but can’t take party who wants guns everywhere crying that people are being mean and using guns in a way that makes you feel unsafe is fucking pathetic. You’re a party of pathetic crybullies. Go fuck your self and your entire crybully movement.
And when Trump is shot dead in the next attempt? Then will you be happy?
Or will you be like “oh, it wasn’t us….” "I didn't mean to ACTUALLY kill him"....
U mad bro?
Nobody cares.
The leading candidate for the GOP nomination has almost been assassinated AGAIN...for the 2nd time in a little over 3 months.
And your response is "nobody cares"
Yes...I care. It's a national tragedy. You want a civil war? Have your side start assassinating all the members of the opposition. That's a good way to get one.
Again Trump and your party is getting the care you deserve. You can’t tell people to get over mass shootings and then expect people to cry about Trump. This is the world you wanted. Get used to it.
So, in your view, Trump DESERVES to be assassinated, because of his political views? Wow.
You want the example of the language the nuts use to justify their shooting. This does. Exactly this.
I like how you just get to put words in my mouth that I didn’t say. I didn’t say he deserves to be assassinated I said he deserves the same amount of care he gives in a similar situation. I don’t want him to die or even think he deserves to, but if he does I simply won’t care.
Again this is a dish but can’t take party.
Uh huh...
After all your talk of school shootings and how it's really Trump's fault for supporting the second amendment, you come out with the line "Again Trump and your party is getting the care you deserve."
And then get all surprised when someone "misinterprets" it to mean the "care" is getting Trump shot instead (ie, "taking care" of someone), because he "deserves" it.
Your language has effects. Think about it. Sounds a lot like you want Trump to get shot. And that he deserves it.
But if it happens, suddenly "oh, I didn't mean THAT".....
But you don't really care if Trump gets shot. Right?
I’m saying nobody cares that you’re mad.
Trump supporters are busy pointing fingers of hatred at migrants and whomever else Trump decides he doesn’t like, hurling lie after lie without regard to the harm they cause, while complaining that decent human beings are pointing out how absolutely terrible his (and your) behavior is.
Now you’re trying to blame people for pointing out the truth of his depravity, as though it would otherwise have been kept a secret. You don’t even begin to think that perhaps Trump’s own behavior might have something to do with anything. No, it must be the fault of evil liberals!
Y’all carry water for whatever racist, hateful thing he says at any given time. You parrot his lies. You can’t even bring yourselves to just say “That’s awful and untrue and shame on him for saying xxxxx,” even when using pseudonyms on the internet.
Your anger is just more partisan bullshit.
Nobody cares.
“Your language has effects. Think about it. Sounds a lot like you want Trump to get shot. And that he deserves it.”
Again. Coming from a Trump supporter this is delusional dish-but-can’t take moment . Yeah language has effects. And the right’s language regarding shootings, violence, and whipping up extremism has this effect: now no one cares when it happens to you. You’re welcome to become better people at any time but until you do don’t whine and cry that no one is extending grace you don’t extend to anyone else.
No one would hate illegals if they would stop eating our pets, raping our daughters, while getting extra privileges and tens of thousands of dollars.
Armchair -- never forget how WWI started.
No. I won’t. I’ll care about as much as you do every time a school is shot up, that is to say, not at all.
Maybe Trump should try not being a malignantly narcissistic piece of shit lobbing insults at every group except white nationalists and "Christians."
Felon? Check.
Sexual abuser? Check.
Pathological liar? Check.
Malignant narcissist? Check.
Racist? Check.
Bigot? Check.
Yeah, it isn't Trump's behavior that made a couple of randos think we're better off with him dead, it's the people calling out Trump's behavior as being bad! The would-be assassins never would've thought Trump to be a bad man without those damn liberals!
Nobody cares what a bunch retards believe about Trump.
Remember how much you *ached* to blame the first shooting on the Democrats?
And then it very clearly wasn't, so you sullenly complained no one cared anymore?
And now you pretend it was the Dems all along?
Pathetic lies. The need for a bloody shirt to justify extremism.
You want bad things, man.
Stop your filthy lying gaslighting. The Trump assassin was a Leftist looney with some curious ties to the FBI.
You people are sick and twisted.
It still gets me that the party who basically made it the norm to shrug off mass shootings expects us to care about this for more than 30 seconds. Oh wow the country you wanted armed with AR-15s isn’t even safe for political leaders. What a shocking and totally unexpected development.
They’re not actually unhappy with this, though. (They = Armchair, Ed, and the antisemite)
They want a Dem to be to blame, but they actually don’t seem very put out about Trump’s life being in danger.
No, we’re actually quite unhappy about this. Pissed in fact.
The Secret Service protection was piss poor in Pennsylvania, and only a miracle saved Trump’s life. The Secret Service denied Trump’s requests for additional protection there. Which was clearly needed. Two other people died.
And now we have a SECOND attempt in just over 3 months? It’s unbelievable. Where are the warnings? Where is the intel? How is this happening? Is someone DELIBERATELY dropping the ball here, trying to get Trump killed?
We’re pissed.
You know the old saying. Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.
It’s because you dipshits wanted to everyone to have guns. Well now they do and you’re mad at the inevitable results.
I actually think the Secret Service did their job here. I don't know how they were supposed to know that the gunman was bound for Trump's golf outing in advance. They scoped out the guy before there was a real danger, sent him fleeing, and then law enforcement caught and apprehended him.
The question will be whether the Secret Service should have secured the entire perimeter of the golf course. If that's what's needed nowadays, then maybe they should go to those lengths, for both candidates. But again I don't see what's unreasonable in initially thinking that might be overkill. Perhaps we just need to adapt to the fact that there are crazies everywhere and the only thing we can do about it is build a big security buffer around the most attractive targets.
And maybe Trump could golf a touch less.
“Details released at the press conference underlined how close Trump came to being shot at – yet again – so soon after a shooter grazed his ear at a rally in Butler county, Pennsylvania, on 13 July. Asked by reporters how far away the gunman spotted on Sunday was to his apparent target, the sheriff of West Palm Beach, Ric Bradshaw, replied: “Probably between 300 and 500 yards – but with a rifle and scope like that, that’s not a lot of distance.””
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/sep/16/second-trump-assassination-attempt-analysis
Sure sounds like real danger to me.
I'm amazed at how much the liberals here are downplaying this.
I just read a story claiming the rifle’s been misidentified and the officer was probably just talking out of his ass.
The Pennsylvania shooter was 400 feet away.
ETA: Dr. Ed has some fascinating commentary on the apparent choice of weapon, which you might find illuminating.
"I just read a story"
Which you didn't link to.
I did read a story though.
"Would-be Trump assassin Ryan Routh, 58, of Hawaii echoed Harris, Biden’s anti-Trump rhetoric as he backed Dem candidates"
"Law enforcement sources identified the suspect as Ryan Wesley Routh, 58.
Routh, who has a lengthy criminal record from North Carolina, frequently posted about politics and exclusively donated to Democratic candidates and causes dating back to 2019."
"He also bashed Trump in an April 22 post on X in which he declared, “DEMOCRACY is on the ballot and we cannot lose.”
He advised Biden, 81, in an April 22 X post when he was still running for reelection, to run a campaign around keeping “America democratic and free.”
He claimed Trump wants to “make Americans slaves against master.”
"DEMOCRACY is on the ballot and we cannot lose,” he wrote, a similar slogan commonly used by President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris.
“We cannot afford to fail,” Routh continued. “The world is counting on us to show the way.”
This is similar to language that Harris continues to use on the campaign trail. On Aug. 29, she said at a rally in Savannah, Ga., “We are fighting for our democracy.”"
https://nypost.com/2024/09/15/us-news/would-be-trump-assassin-idd-as-ryan-routh-58-of-hawaii-sources/
Which you didn’t link to.
So? It's out there. I'm sure you'll see it passed around soon enough.
“Would-be Trump assassin Ryan Routh... [blah blah blah]
Clearly it's incumbent on Kamala, et al., to pretend that Trump is a normal candidate who poses no existential threat to our system of governance, while Trump/Vance, et al., may feel free to continue goading white supremacists into taking matters into their own hands in Springfield, Ohio.
Democracy is, yes, still on the line with this election. I am frustrated that there are people who embrace violence, instead of a free and fair election, to address that threat. But I have tolerated enough violent rhetoric on this board, coming from MAGA, to be inured and indifferent to your cynical complaints. It all comes off as false.
The protectee is within 500 yards of an Interstate Highway -- yea, you need to have someone there to secure that fence line.
Criticizing Trump is why he got shot?
As I said, you care more about using this as a partisan cudgel than anything else. That's all you've been posting about here.
And you’re dumb enough to think anyone’s going to go along with your ‘say nice things about Trump or else you want him assassinated’ nonsense.
You are talking more violence than anyone else here this side of Dr. Ed.
No, Armchair, you’re ONLY interested in pointing the finger left. Whether it’s about the Secret Service hating Trump, or the ‘tone’ or an inchoate conspiracy that would have Brett Bellmore blushing.
That’s all you’re posting about – blame.
Go join Ed in the Civil War 2 crowd, your actual outrage seems that hasn’t kicked off yet.
Losers all. I don't know how the election will come off, but you'll be miserable either way.
So he's pulling a Sarcastr0?
Sarcastr0 tells me what I think again. It's his favorite way to argue. The strawman.
Doesn't matter what I actually say, Sarcatr0 magically interprets what he thinks I mean, and argues against that.
I'm reading what you say. Maybe in your private thoughts you are truly concerned. But here? Here all you're doing is yelling at the libs libs libs.
You seem almost desperate to be offended.
I'm not convinced the first shooter wasn't a Democrat.
Perp had an AK-47and a scope, which is a contradiction in terms.
https://www.the-express.com/news/politics/148739/donald-trump-shooting-fears-rifle-pushed-through-fence-florida-golf-course
The AK-47 was designed not to have its internal parts fit tightly so that it wouldn't jam and would be reliable even when dirty. But the cost of doing that means that the AK is not known for accuracy at distance -- it's not the gun you'd want for a 400-500 yard shot.
Nor was it intended for that purpose -- it was designed to spray a lot of bullets at relatively close targets.
"Multiple sources said Secret Service fired at the suspect. Officials believe an armed individual intended to target Trump, according to sources briefed on the matter."
Methinks that the USSS need a wee bit of marksmanship training -- remember that it was a STATE sniper who took out the perp who shot Trump, not them. Yes, it's nice to have him still alive because you can question him, but still....
"A long gun has been recovered, according to the law enforcement source."
Something that every golfer carries and isn't noticeable.
OK, maybe concealable in a golf bag, but not something your random golfer is carrying...
And do you folks have any idea what is going to happen if they actually kill Trump? The right wing is going to come loose and while it may not be a civil war, it definitely will bring back memories of 1968.
Why wait for the appropriate excuse to begin your glorious insurrection/secession you keep threatening? Just go on and do it. Call up Rittenhouse, mosey on down to the Piggly Wiggly and start firing.
Towards what end?
FAR more effective to arrange for the dozen trucks the store receives a day to not show up. Or are Piggly Wigglys not that big -- I've never been in one.
It does not surprise me that you're the sort the has never traveled.
I've seen reports it the shots were at Trump, it was two unrelated dudes, and it was the Secret Service taking down a wannabe assassin.
Wait a tick everyone; the first to the post reporting is not reliable.
Thus, FWIW.
Maybe the Daily Mail, like a clock that's right twice a day, will be right on this?
Ah, but you've forgotten about digital clocks! Don't set the bar so high.
More reports in and it sure seems like a 2nd attempt. Which federal agency do you think this one works at?
Right now, I'm betting on, "first real attempt inspired a false flag operation to pull focus."
You BlueAnon crazies should wait until you get your marching orders from the State Dept. via The Daily Show.
Why should I wait? The MAGAts here didn't wait to blame Democratic rhetoric.
Because it's you lunatics that historically burn down cities and mass murder people. By Any Means Necessary
Ah, yes, the great Obama purge of 2010, when millions of Republicans were rounded up and sent to the camps, their towns and villages burned to the ground.
Because, Gaslight0, unrelated dudes always carry long guns on the golf course.
You got a problem with dudes carrying long guns on golf courses?
Yes, I do.
What do you think I said in my post, Ed?
And what the do you think gaslight means?
What y'all did covering up Biden's dementia, Kamala's popularity and political skill, the non-partisanship of the DOJ, and the utility of Washington DC.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslight_(1944_film)
It doesn’t happen now because there are automatic valves that open to maintain the pressure, and natural gas (Methane) is different from gas manufactured from coal, but in Victorian times when a gas light was turned on, it would lower the pressure in the line. This would reduce the intensity of the flame in other gas lights that were on at the time, and that would mean that the metal mantle wasn’t heated as hot and *that* would reduce the amount of light given off.
It also could change the color a little bit, make it more yellow as the mantle wasn't as hot, depending on various factors.
Amongst other things, what the husband did was convince his wife that she wasn’t actually seeing the gas lights downstairs dimming when he was up in the attic with those gas lights on.
Convincing someone that (a) something they know to be true isn’t and (b) that it’s a sign of insanity is called “gaslighting.”
And once a photo of an actual rifle shows up, it kinda is conclusive.
This wasn’t a gang drive by on Trump’s golf course, as if that would actually ever happen.
https://www.the-express.com/news/politics/148739/donald-trump-shooting-fears-rifle-pushed-through-fence-florida-golf-course
No. You're being stupid.
1. I didn't lie. The point of my very short post was: "Wait a tick everyone; the first to the post reporting is not reliable." None of the rest was offered for truth.
2. Even if I did, every lie is an attempt to get people to believe the untruth, so gaslight just you making up a fancy word for lie.
3. Gaslighting is if I was trying to shake your self confidence via a long-term project. Do you think that's a windmill I'm gonna tilt at?
He wasn't on the golf course.
GaslightO, the FBI would beg to differ.
Again: what do you think my post said?
Thoughts and prayers. Just another grim fact of life we have to deal with. Time to move on.
Passions are high, emotions are running hot, now is clearly the wrong time to talk about gun control.
EXACTLY!
And anyone who knew ANYTHING about guns -- the AK-47 would be pretty much the LAST choice for a sniper rifle. AR-15 is superior but what you really want is a bolt action rifle. It's hard to believe but a LITTLE bit of difference on how the round winds up seated makes a BIG difference in accuracy, and I've never understood how as the rifled barrel spins the bullet, but...
Sounds like you've put some thought into how to pull off a presidential assassination, Ed.
No, I know a little bit about rifles -- and shooting a President at 400-500 yards involves the exact same combination of skill and equipment as shooting a piece of paper at 400-500 yards.
OR shooting a deer, or shooting a rabid Racoon. (Actually that takes more skill because you're trying not to hit it in the head so that the brain can be examined to somehow confirm rabies.)
It's not the weapon nor the skills of the marksman -- it's the choice of what to shoot at -- OR NOT SHOOT AT.
A three-ton SUV can be used to take your family through the woods and to Grandmother's House -- or can be used to murder your husband by repeatedly running over him. Stephen King notwithstanding, the SUV is not itself inherently deadly.
I support Trump, I intend to vote for him, and the absolute thing I want is him murdered. That doesn't mean that I can't technically evaluate the situation and conclude that an assassin who knew anything about guns would not pick an AK-47 because it is not accurate as a sniper weapon -- you want a bolt action gun, like Lee Harvey Oswald used to murder JFK.
Whoosh ....
That said, Grampa Ed isn't totally wrong. A scoped bolt-action rifle chambered in .308 Winchester would be a far better choice for someone who actually knew what they were doing.
Which kinda makes me think that whatever political valence (and I express absosmurfly zero opinion on that!) the alleged wanna-be shooter may eventually be tarred with, "smarts" is not in play.
While this is yet another example of "crazy people have way too easy access to guns problem" ... we often get lucky because unstable folks don't always have the best functional skill sets.
While this is yet another example of “crazy people have way too easy access to guns problem” … we often get lucky because unstable folks don’t always have the best functional skill sets.
The description could apply to Dr. Ed and a number of other frequent MAGA commenters here.
Assuming the person really wanted to do it.
There are people so craving attention and fame that they might want to take a shot at Trump just for the fame and fortune.
He had a Go Pro camera there so one presumes he wanted to actually murder Trump, but one always does have to wonder. It isn't that hard to find out that a bolt action rifle is more accurate at distance, although I would have selected a .30-06.
It will be interesting to see the perp's rap sheet.
I think what's interesting to me, about your comments, is that while the MAGA crowd is doing their usual, "This is the Democrats' fault!" spiel - you, our resident loon, seem to understand Routh's thinking.
What seems to be known about his ideological preferences suggests, to me, that he is a "Democrat" in the Tulsi-RFK, Obama-Trump voter mold. Kind of kooky and not easy to pin down within a strictly dichotomous political framework. (Kind of like the previous attacker in Pennsylvania.) Guy took it upon himself to organize volunteer troops in Ukraine, and even managed to get himself interviewed by national media doing so. But also violent to varying degrees throughout the years.
"Routh has a long criminal and civil court history, including a conviction for possessing a machine gun in 2022."
Why isn't he in prison right now????
You have words in quotes. They are not in this article or its comments. What source are you quoting?
btw, the case you mention was in 2002, not 2022. Per WaPo:
Why is there such an obsession with secrecy regarding Court proceedings? I think it was Justice Brandeis who noted that "sunlight is the best disinfectant." Why shouldn't that apply to what is probably the most corrupt Court in history? Thanks mostly to the complete lack of ethics on the part of Alito and Thomas as well as the blatant political opinions of Roberts and others, it is obvious there is a cancer growing in the Supreme Court. It must be excised, but first we need to see just how ugly things have become inside 1 First Street in Washington.
At this level the exercise of judicial power is barely different from policy-making. SCOTUS practitioners are more like lobbyists and opinions are policy documents/blog posts. They want to exercise massive amounts of political power without any public accountability, scrutiny, or even transparency. It is incredibly child-like when you think about it. And its actually incredible we’ve let them get away with it for so long.
Brandeis didn’t want the secret proceedings of his court to be that open to the sunlight.
It’s helpful for judicial proceedings to be private so that they can work things out. Sometimes, stuff coming out early could be a problem in a financial case or something.
So, I’m not big on leaking draft opinions — which helped lock things in place fwiw — and such. I am less concerned with stuff coming out after the fact that provides color commentary.
I guess a case can be made that the leaks regarding the process here can inhibit best practices for decision-making. That can be said about various behind-the-scenes stuff.
But, it is a weighing process, especially to the degree the Supreme Court acts in a corrupt and/or crummy way and media coverage can help clarify the situation.
Yes, these leaks are pretty boring, except to people who watch Scotus closely. I do not see what is bad about these leaks, or why they make Roberts look bad. Maybe Roberts narrowed an opinion in order to get a 6-3 majority instead of a 5-4 majority. Is that a bad thing to do?
Perhaps judicial deliberations should be open to the public — I disagree, but maybe one can make that case — but it's not reasonable to implement such a policy retroactively. When people speak based on the reliance that such communications are confidential, they should be entitled to continue to rely on that.
“It was devastating for the draft decision to become public”
Why is this so? Didn’t it just “move up” the anger as, iirc, little was changed from the official opinion? Heck, it may have helped “vent” some of the anger.
Justice Roberts has managed to place himself in roughly the middle of a 3-3-3 split court. If I were he, I wouldn’t worry too much about the wishful thinking of third rate hacks who call on him to resign.
And the reason Alito lost his majority is pretty obvious. He wants maximalist, no-compromise opinions in a 3-3-3 court where he has only 2 other solid maximalist votes and the middle 3 will often want to go only part of the way. He just doesn’t have the votes for his maximalist positions most of the time.
So it’s just not surprising that while sometimes he gets it his way, more often than not he’s shown the highway.
We've appointed six purportedly conservative justices only to have a 3-3-3 court?!?
What are the Dems doing that we aren't???
I would not expect all the liberal justices to be maximalist liberals either, but that doesn't come up much.
Josh opens the second paragraph by referencing "this leak". No antecedent "leak" in the prior paragraph, but a callback to a prior vomitous post. Fine, I think, I'll go check that out to try to figure out WTactualF he's talking about.
The word "leak" does not appear in the prior post, not once. You seem like the "guy in front of a bunch of pictures with strings connecting them" (y'all know the image!).
This is crap legal writing: stop assuming your audience can read your mind about whatever-it-is you think you're talking about.
“When I’ve lost Josh Blackman, I’ve lost America.” President Roberts, noting the TV coverage.
John Roberts is no William Rehnquist. Oh! For another Rehnquist as CJ.