The Volokh Conspiracy
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Prof. Robert Leider (GMU): Are Parents Responsible for School Shootings Committed by their Children?
I'm delighted to be able to pass along this item by Prof. Leider, who is an expert on criminal law:
On Wednesday, an all-too-familiar tragic scene played out, when a student at a Georgia high school opened fire on his teachers and classmates. The student killed four and injured nine others with a semiautomatic rifle. He stands charged with murder. But police also promptly arrested his father and charged him with four counts of involuntary manslaughter and eight counts of cruelty to children. Police have alleged that the father "knowingly allowed him to possess" the rifle. Although police have not released the full details of the case against the father, this case has the potential to drastically expand criminal liability against parents for the criminal acts of their children.
The law traditionally has not imposed a general duty upon parents to protect third parties against the criminal acts of their children. And for good reasons. Parents are not in a position to control their children's behavior at all times. Although parents may choose to have children, they do not choose the children that they get. Unlike the employer-employee relationship, parents cannot terminate a child who exhibits problematic behavior.
But there are some exceptions where parents may violate duties of their own. A parent can become liable when he fails to exercise control over the child and the child's wrongful act is reasonably foreseeable. Even here, however, courts (usually in the tort context—criminal cases are rare) have imposed a strict standard for what qualifies as reasonably foreseeable. To quote the Alaska Supreme Court:
A plaintiff must show more than a parent's general notice of a child's dangerous propensity. A plaintiff must also show that the parent had reason to know with some specificity of a present opportunity and need to restrain the child to prevent some imminently foreseeable harm.
Dinsmore-Poff v. Alvord, 972, P.2d 978, 986 (Alaska 1999).
Other courts have formulated similarly stringent tests. See, e.g., Wells v. Hickman, 657 N.E.2d 172, 178 (Ind. 1995) ("Imposition of a duty is limited to those circumstances where a reasonably foreseeable victim is injured by a reasonably foreseeable harm.… Specifically, the parent must know or should have known that the child had a habit of engaging in the particular act or course of conduct which led to the plaintiff's injury.") (citing Parsons v. Smithey, 504 P.2d 1272, 1276 (Ariz. 1973) ("On the subject of parental liability for failure to control children, it appears that the parents must have knowledge of the child's habitual conduct manifested by evidence of prior acts which are the same or similar to the act complained of.")).
In the Georgia case, liability would depend on what precisely the parents knew. It has been reported that the FBI previously interviewed the school shooter because of online threats. Certainly, if the parents were aware that the teenager represented a credible danger to the school, they would have had the obligation to control him, including (most obviously) by not supplying the child with a rifle. But reports indicate that the child denied making the threats and the FBI could not find probable cause (a very low evidentiary standard) that he did so. It is doubtful that one unsubstantiated allegation months earlier that a child made threats would place parents on notice that a child may be violent now.
With respect to the publicly known facts, the lack of specificity separates this case from the Michigan cases of Jennifer and James Crumbley, to which it has been compared. In the Michigan case, the Crumbleys were convicted of involuntary manslaughter for supplying a handgun to their child while ignoring his mental health problems. The child later used the handgun in a school shooting to murder four students and wound six others.
But the Crumbleys were on extensive notice that their son was troubled and potentially an immediate danger. Indeed, the Crumbleys met with school officials on the morning of the shooting in response to artwork by their son depicting violence and pleading for help. Yet, they did nothing to alert school officials about his possible access to a weapon, nor did they check to make sure their firearm was still in their possession. They simply left him at school. (Their case remains on appeal. Given how high the standard is for parental liability, they have a reasonable chance to succeed.)
Of course, police have not released all their evidence, and they are still investigating. When more evidence comes to light, prosecutors may have substantial other evidence that the Georgia parents were on specific notice of the danger.
As of now, however, the director of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation has framed the case as one of a parent "knowingly allowing his son to possess a weapon." But another major difference between the Georgia case and the Michigan case is that the Georgia case involved a rifle while the Michigan case involved a handgun. The differences in weapons matter legally. Because handguns are more susceptible of criminal misuse, federal and state laws more tightly regulate the possession of a handgun by a minor. In general, it is unlawful for a minor to possess a handgun. There are exceptions (e.g., target shooting and hunting), but many states additionally require that, even then, adults directly supervise minors. In contrast, federal law does not prohibit minors from possessing rifles and shotguns, nor do many states (including Georgia). Unlike with handguns, it is more common to permit minors unsupervised access to rifles and shotguns for hunting and target shooting.
Granted, this case involved an AR-15 type rifle. A few jurisdictions (e.g., Virginia) separate some semiautomatic rifles (designated as "assault weapons" or "assault firearms") and restrict juvenile possession in the same manner as handguns. But most states treat rifles and shotguns as a class, and do not separate rifles by type. Georgia is among them.
It is also unclear exactly how the Georgia child gained access to the firearm. A parent can also be liable for the acts of his child if he negligently entrusts a dangerous instrumentality to his child. The particular facts will likely be highly significant. Did the parent in this case consent to his son having possession of the rifle? Or did the child take the rifle without permission?
At the end of the day, however, it is not clear whether these legal technicalities will matter. We may be witnessing a development in the law of parental responsibility. Although school shootings and mass shootings are rare (they make up a small fraction of all homicides), they terrify the population far more than ordinary street violence. Americans may have had enough, and they may want the law to develop in a direction to impose a more substantial duty on parents to keep firearms away from minors. Guns are not the only dangerous instrumentality to which minors have access; cars cause thousands of deaths each year, too. If the law evolves, it remains to be seen whether it will be a "gun exception" to normal rules of parental responsibility or whether the law will impose stronger duties on parents in other domains as well.
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I would never endorse a rule that requires adults to always keep guns secured from children, in all circumstances. There are plenty of 16 year olds who can be trusted with this responsibility. One such example is linked below.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-home-invasion-teen-shoots-two-men-in-channelview/
But with this long haired bullied loser, it was clear to everyone that this kid was unstable and shouldn't have have had a Nerf gun, much less an AR, and it should have been clear to the father too. Charging him here was appropriate.
Yet you fanatics keep giving your children these powerful weapons (see Congressional Christmas post cards). Eventually, when enough of you do it, you'll all end up in jail and we'll finally have peace in this land. But a lot of innocent highschoolers will die in the process
You've been told a million times to sop exaggerating.
Which part exaggarating? Giving guns to children? Christmas post cards?
He was making a funny.
But exaggerating is his Standard Operating Procedure.
Firstly, most parents are not "giving" their children these weapons. They may be posing in pictures, but they are owned and in control of the parents.
Secondly, very very few have trouble. It's obvious though who has the potential for trouble, and not just in retrospect.
They may be posing in pictures, but they are owned and in control of the parents.
Bddogs — With guns thus in control of the parents, is it your point that makes the parents liable? If not, why not?
If the parents allowed a child that they knew, or should have known, to be dangerous to possess a firearm, then yes.
You liberal, rabidly anti-gun types love to use the term "powerful weapons." Yet, the AR-15, firing a 5.56x42 NATO round isn't particularly powerful, as rifle cartridges go. The common rifles that were previously the standard service rifles of the U.S. military were much more powerful - chambered in .30-05 and .308. I mean, much more powerful!
What's the point of you using the adjective "powerful?" Just to alarm and excite?
Suggesting a common sporting rifle is notably "powerful" is simply a demonstration of ignorance, but it (ignorance about firearms) is so ubiquitous in his circles he may not even have realized it. (If you said "powerful rifle" to me, I would think of a .308 or some kind of hunting rifle, not a .223 AR-15.)
But his worst offense was his crime against logic: "when enough parents arm their children, the parents will be prosecuted and end up in jail, which will end the problem of school shootings", presumably because at that point there will be no more unimprisoned parents left free to arm their children? ("Oh, and shame about all the highschool carnage!")
If there were no guns in the US, there would almost certainly be fewer mass murders (not to mention suicides). But there is no realistic scenario in which all the guns, or even a proportion of the guns sufficient to make a dent in the mass murders, can be removed from a society like the US in which they are so numerous. Magic is not an option. If you think mass deportations would rip the US in half, wait until you try to mass-confiscate firearms (and doing so in obvious violation of the Constitution).
Americans simply have to deal with the reality of their situation, and so long as enough of them refuse to do anything about it, nothing will change. Until the 2nd Amendment is successfully repealed (or the Constitution otherwise "terminated"), the US will always be awash with firearms and with the associated firearm-related crime and carnage.
I didn't leave the US because of crime, but I certainly now appreciate not having to worry about getting robbed, assaulted or killed as much as I did when I lived in and around major US cities. It's really too bad that many Americans can never be free of that kind of anxiety, because it must take a toll on them. But the only realistic solution is to leave and go somewhere less "free", but much safer and liveable. If I really want to shoot guns, I can always fly to Las Vegas...
For the ignorant, those numbers (i.e. .223 and .308 or 9mm) is the width of the bullet, measured either in fractions of an inch or milometers. The most common (non-AR) hunting round is .30-06 which means 0.30 inch in width, and a round first chambered in 1906 for the military, it is what the M-1 rifle used in WWII & Korea fired. People forget that was a semi-automatic rifle.
Federal law permits widths up to a half inch, i.e. .50 caliber, and there is a .50 caliber sniper rifle that I’d like to fire just once to say I’d done it because another law of physics is that for the bullet to go in one direction, the gun has to go in the other direction with the same energy. The advantage of the AR platform and why both women and smaller men like them is that a lot of that recoil energy is used to chamber the next round and hence doesn’t become recoil energy.
For the ignorant: it's not the "width of the bullet," it's the diameter of the gun barrel bore and the cartridge that fits therein.
If you're going to be pedantic, try to at least be accurate.
Diameter and width are the same thing for round objects. And the cartridge diameter/width is routinely larger, not the same as, the barrel bore.
I'd like to see a DI or weapons instructor's reaction if you talked about the "width" of a gun barrel or cartridge.
The fallacy here is the assumption that this problem needs to be solved in one fell swoop i.e. by "try[ing] to mass-confiscate firearms."
This is a chronic problem meaning it's susceptible to long-term solutions, like how you're not going to lose 100lbs from one incredible visit to the gym but instead need to adjust your lifestyle.
There are plenty of solutions short of terminating the Second Amendment that America could do to pull back from irresponsible gun proliferation over time, starting with overruling Heller as Egregiously Wrong.
If Heller is egregiously wrong then you're advocating terminating the 2nd Amendment. Stop the bullshit.
BDDGS — No. You could be arguing, and would be historically wise to argue, that the 2A really is about a militia purpose, and not at all about self-defense. The historical record to support that argument is far stronger than anything in the record Scalia tortured and twisted to create Heller. In fact, the argument that Scalia was egregiously wrong on history is overwhelming.
That does not mean that what Scalia was trying to do—to establish that a gun culture of self-defense existed at the time of the founding—was wrong. That did exist. But Scalia either ignored or did not notice that it was not interpreted alike everywhere. For instance, what Pennsylvania would tolerate was anathema in Virginia—and thus the self-defense question resisted a nationalized solution.
Had Scalia simply argued that, as a matter of history there is record to support it. But it is a record that such a culture was to be found not in the Federal Constitution, but instead expressed variously in the State Constitutions.
The problem to stick with Heller, while ignoring the historical reality, is that to do it precludes a federalized solution to today's gun policy problems. You cannot, under Heller, do what the founders did at the Convention—which is to leave all gun questions—except the militia question—to the states to decide variously, according to their own preferences and circumstances. To go back to that truly originalist interpretation affords a way out of the current gun policy crisis.
In a nutshell, there can be no satisfactory nationwide solution to gun policy problems. Preferences and circumstances differ too much among the states. Gun laws suitable for Wyoming get no acceptance in Massachusetts, and rightly so. Gun policies which gives satisfaction in Wyoming not only get energetic resistance in Massachusetts, but would also make Massachusetts more dangerous.
The solution is to let each state decide for itself what gun rights and gun regulations it wants. A national constitutional regime to let that happen is in fact what the founders bequeathed to the nation in the Constitution.
To decree Heller's misreadings of the 2A required no Constitutional amendment, and did not create a Constitutional amendment by default. The same process which created that Constitutional blunder can be used to correct it. No amendment is required.
I'm not a fan of Heller, and I think the "common use" test has a lot of flaws. But your description of history ignores that the 14th Amendment was intended to extend federal protections to the states, so what Virginia or Pennsylvania would have tolerated is not really relevant.
Also, you realize that under your proposed read, nearly every federal law pertaining to guns would be unconstitutional?
Stephen Lathrop 6 hours ago
BDDGS — No. You could be arguing, and would be historically wise to argue, that the 2A really is about a militia purpose, and not at all about self-defense.
Lathrop - If that was true, then why did the senate voted down the proposal to add the phrase "for the common defense" to 2A during the congressional debate when the BoR was being adopted back in 1791.
The Senate returned to this amendment for a final time on September 9. A proposal to insert the words "for the common defence" next to the words "bear arms" was defeated. A motion passed to replace the words "the best", and insert in lieu thereof "necessary to the" .[142] The Senate then slightly modified the language to read as the fourth article and voted to return the Bill of Rights to the House. The final version by the Senate was amended to read as:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
The House voted on September 21, 1789, to accept the changes made by the Senate.
See footnote 142
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#cite_note-149
Lathrop – If that was true, then why did the senate voted down the proposal to add the phrase “for the common defense” to 2A during the congressional debate when the BoR was being adopted back in 1791.
Joe_dallas — You invite a historical counterfactual. I decline the invitation.
As a matter of pure historically empty speculation, my response would be that Virginia and North Carolina cherished a notion of a militia purpose that extended not merely to the common defense, but to the particular defense of those states from some of the others. They sniffed the wind, and bridled at a whiff of militia restrictions yet to come.
SL- You are a counterfactual. Shut up already.
You can go ahead and tinker around the edges, such as praising the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act of 2022 because it is the "first major gun safety legislation passed by Congress in nearly 30 years", rather than because it has had any measurable effect on gun-related crime, but that won't solve the problems of today. To have any significant effect you need the 2nd Amendment to somehow not guarantee a fundamental individual right...
So long as it does, most if not all of your imaginary "solutions short of terminating the Second Amendment" are unconstitutional.
An honest application of the 2nd Amendment makes incremental violations just as unconstitutional as major violations, so what you're calling for is a selective violation of the Constitution--but for a good cause.
You demonstrate the usual mindset of somebody who wants to reduce "gun violence", while not giving a damn about any other sort of violence: Go after the innocent, and you'll sweep up the many fewer guilty in the process, without having to sort them out! And who cares about innocent gun owners? They're gun owners, by definition they're not really innocent.
And if you could wave a magic gun control wand, and, poof, it became impossible to own guns, that would work, and you could sit back and relax as gun violence was replaced with knife violence, club violence, Molotov cocktail violence, explosives violence, and so forth. Problem solved!
But you don't have that magic wand, thankfully, because you wouldn't put it down after that first wave, and would go after some other right to erase next.
Gun control measures are, like any other victimless crime law, incredibly hard to enforce. Like any other difficult to enforce law, compliance is high among the obsessively law abiding, (Who were never a problem to begin with.) and near zero for the criminal class.
So you'd disarm virtually no criminals, while disarming most of their victims, and call it a win, because the continued criminal use of guns would provide you with an excuse to double down, instead of admitting the policy was a failure.
Because gun control has never been about disarming criminals. It's always been about making the disfavored defenseless against the government. And today?
Almost everybody is disfavored in the eyes of the left.
Many, many more innocent highschoolers will die from your sweet sixteen SUV gifts.
“Americans may have had enough, and they may want the law to develop in a direction to impose a more substantial duty on parents to keep firearms away from minors.”
Or maybe it’s just politicians who always wanted that hoping that they can exploit a tragedy to impose a legal change the public wouldn’t want if given any time to reflect.
You know, like it usually is?
If you polled the public on: “should parents give AR-15s to their child after the FBI has informed them that their child has been posting about shooting up his school?” I don’t think they would come to your preferred conclusion after any amount of reflection.
If you polled parents on whether the FBI ought to bear some responsibility too, they might not come to a conclusion you would like.
If the FBI knowledge wasn't enough, are the parents somehow supposed to know more?
Are you arguing the parents withheld information from the FBI?
Are you arguing the FBI withheld information from the parents?
Are you arguing that the FBI is actually trustworthy?
What exactly are you arguing?
I’m arguing that the public doesn’t want parents who are made aware that their child is making threats to them go and give that child a gun. No amount of bullshit from Brett about “time to reflect” will ever change that basic reality.
"I’m arguing that the public doesn’t want parents who are made aware that their child is making threats to them go and give that child a gun."
But that isn't what happened here. Here the child was accused of making threats, but the authorities didn't have enough evidence to even make an arrest. I think that falls short of the parents being "made aware that their child is making threats".
But that isn’t what happened here. Here the child was accused of making threats, but the authorities didn’t have enough evidence to even make an arrest. I think that falls short of the parents being “made aware that their child is making threats”.
I don't think the threshold for informing the parents ought to be the same as for making an arrest.
Nor is the parental responsibility for not giving the kid guns in this scenario.
The standard for arresting someone and the standard for being aware your kid is doing disturbing stuff online and shouldn’t have access to weapons are definitely not the same.
As an analogy: The police can’t arrest a person outside a bar with a parking lot just because they think he’s drunk. If they tell his friends: hey he seems pretty drunk, but the friends say he’s fine and still let him have the car keys…don’t you think the friends are being negligent?
If they have a duty to keep the car keys away from him.
Negligent entrustment is a thing.
Letting a drunk drive away in his own car is not entrustment, negligent or otherwise.
By analogy, are you saying that unless there is a duty under the law, no one is, under general principles, obligated to take away keys or guns knowing something bad will happen? Is that the society you want? Just to keep your shiny objects?
Or perhaps that the threshold for knowing something bad will happen is higher than you think.
My understanding is that the FBI referred it to the Sheriff's Department where the boy was living at the time, and the kid alleged that his account had been hacked. He was being bullied and accounts do get hacked a lot, and while the FBI might have been able to do a forensic examination of the kids computer to tell if the threat postings had been generated there (.temp files and such), I doubt that Bubba at the Sheriff's Department would even have known that was possible to do.
My guess is that Bubba, who's seen accounts hacked before, believed the kid. (Psychopaths are good liars...) Father is 54, likely only has a high school education and would have graduated in 1988 before any of this stuff existed (the Web was invented in 1993), and probably agreed with Bubba that the boy ought to be more careful about passwords.
This isn't unreasonable....
I feel like you're dancing around a point you don't quite want to embrace.
Do you think the FBI is better equipped to play parent than the parents?
The FBI should be better at stopping mass shooters who are publicly plotting their mass shootings than some regular ol dude.
In other words, yes.
Bizarre. Or is it just more voltage?
The FBI is better equipped to assess threats than parents yes.
Within the context of a specific incident, sure. But the FBI involvement was more than a year earlier and all they had to go on is the fact that someone made an online post under the kid's name. I'm sure they deal with dozens (hundreds? thousands?) of such calls. Even when the kid does make the threat they're generally just screwing around.
The parent knew is was a possibility his son wrote the post, he was also clearly aware the child had mental health issues (the FBI didn't know about) and he gifted the child a gun.
Basically, if you don't want to hold the parent responsible you need to give government actors more authority (and responsibility) to intervene with troubled kids. I'm not sure that would be a popular position on this site.
It wasn't "under his name" if the account used a Russianification of the name "Lanza" (as I have read elsewhere). The FBI must have associated Colt Gray with the account in another way.
Isn’t it just an amazing coincidence how frequent the FBI is somehow involved in all these shootings?
They can’t find pipe bomber, stop school shooters, uncover mass murderers or presidential assasins, but they sure as shit can SWAT the fuck out of 70 Roger whatshisface with CNN in tow or hunt down Granny Go Go for spending 3.minutes inside the capitol and raid families for feloniously praying.
If the FBI knowledge wasn’t enough, are the parents somehow supposed to know more?
Yes. The kid lives with them, in the same house. The FBI questioned him for a while. Sure they know more.
The FBI didn't question him. The local Sheriff's Department did.
Some of your points are very well taken, though, yes, I absolutely would expect the parents to know more about what’s going on with their child in this instance.
Setting aside your mistaken premise — it was not reported that the FBI interviewed him; it was reported that local police interviewed him after the FBI alerted them about a possible threat — yes, of course parents are "somehow" supposed to know more about their own kid than a law enforcement agency that briefly interviews him.
"Knowing more" than zero is not equivalent to "knowing he's going to commit mass murder".
I am not saying that the parents should have known. I don't have the info to make that assessment (although it was just reported that the kid's mother called the school the day of the attack to warn them). I am saying that the parents have a lot more information n are in a better position to know than law enforcement is.
Yes, I read about that today. We don't know why she warned the school 30min prior to the shooting, and apparently the school tried to react to the warning, but did not manage to do so appropriately.
Reportedly, a kid was about to open the (locked) door of a classroom to Gray, but saw (presumably through the glass) that he was carrying a rifle, and didn't. If the kid had let him in, there probably would have been a lot more than four people killed...
a legal change the public wouldn’t want if given any time to reflect.
Is it possible that some of those who oppose the change would favor it if given time to reflect?
Again, you assume that you are automatically right, that any sensible person will agree with you in time, and those who don't must have ulterior motives unrelated to the issue at hand.
I don't know. It seems fairly reasonable that kids shouldn't have access to firearms or be allowed to use them, except when under the direct supervision of an adult.
You might want to think about some of the circumstances that come up.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/12yearold-shot-and-killed-armed-intruder-during-botched-home-invasion-police-say-b1802352.html
I'm glad that 12 year old is alright.
But I'm more concerned about the far more typical circumstances that come up.
I was allowed to take a .22 (bolt action) rifle out for target practice by myself at the age of 15.
Anyone who let Dr. Ed have access to a firearm at any age should be incarcerated.
The Rev Kirkland and LawTalkingGuy's access to their own diseased pee pees poses much more of a threat to society.
Dick Cheney is voting for Kamala. Bush’s daughter was whining about guns after one of her wealthy friends’ children had a brush with death in Franklin, TN from a crazed 2A nut.
> Guns are not the only dangerous instrumentality to which minors have access; cars cause thousands of deaths each year, too. If the law evolves, it remains to be seen whether it will be a “gun exception” to normal rules of parental responsibility or whether the law will impose stronger duties on parents in other domains as well.
Wow, sounds good, but there have to be some drawbacks right?
-----
also, egads, let's all watch out for that slippery slope!
Most of the time when people deny the reality of slippery slopes, it's because they want to be on the bottom.
With the first half of the Second Amendment written out of the Constitution by Heller, and with Heller's “reasonable restrictions” limitation gradually being written out too, the problem of gun violence will have to be addressed with peripheral measures like parental responsibility.
I’m reminded of the Onion headline: “‘Nothing can be done about mass shootings’ says the only country where it regularly happens.”
The US is not the only country where this regularly happens.
Brazil and Mexico have higher criminal homicide rates.
I was talking about mass shootings.
Crooks is looking like a prototypical mass shooter…Republicans successfully made it into an assassination attempt when he was clearly just a mentally disturbed suicidal Columbine freak.
A lot of people don't understand this: The US isn't an unusually violent European country that happens to be in North America. It's an unusually wealthy and peaceful American country.
We should be compared to the other countries in North and South America, not Europe. Our histories of being the product of colonization are similar, we just turned out a lot better than the rest of them.
Bellmore — To make up history to tailor it to your preferred present-day outcome is a bad choice. Among the United States, Canada, and Mexico, our various histories of colonization are far more different than alike.
If you limit the statistics to our white population, our crime is not that different from any country in Europe.
We have a lot of crime for a developed country because of our blacks, and to a lesser extent, our mestizo Hispanics. This is not up for debate
The 1st phrase wasn’t read out of the 2A. You were just misinterpreting it.
the leftist have tried to use the 1st phrase to read the 2nd phrase out of 2A.
That belief was dispelled when the senate voted down the proposal to add “for the common defense” into the language of 2a during the ratification process . Not so funny that Stevens completely ignored the senate debate when he pretended to use 'historical analysis"
"for the common defense" isn't the only thing that the 1st phrase brings to the table.
Randal - you are partially correct
The historical writings of the time described the right to keep and bear arms for the common defense and self defense.
Scalia got the military clause wrong. 2A protects the right of the people and the states to form militias for the common defense and the right of the people to keep and bear arms for self defense.
I'd assumed you were glad it was written out in Heller. Since, you know, it's the only reason Heller didn't rule that average Americans had a constitutional right to buy whatever weapons the government decided its soldiers should carry.
average Americans had a constitutional right to buy whatever weapons the government decided its soldiers should carry
That's what the Second Amendment should mean, it's what it originally meant, and we'd have way way fewer of this kind of mass shooting if that's what it still meant.
Please explain your "logic" on this one.
For better logic, see my reply to you, above.
Compare deaths per 100,000 from:
A. Opiates (or just fentanyl if you wish).
B. Motor vehicle accidents.
C. Guns.
You will notice something....
Is your argument that, there are several more dangerous things to American children than gun violence, so…we shouldn’t be concerned about gun violence? I think it’s reasonable to hold that all three examples warrant society’s attention.
In 2021, there were apparently 75477 unintentional opioid deaths; 48830 gun deaths (of which 20958 were murders and 26328 were suicides); 46980 motor vehicle deaths. Since the majority of murders (and suicides) are with guns, the danger of someone being murdered by opioids or vehicles is very small. Opioid deaths typically kill people who use opioids; motor vehicle deaths are almost always accidental and at a rate of about 1 per 75 million miles.
Vehicles (like Dr. Ed 2's favorite, snowplows) could kill substantial numbers of people, but of course not in school classrooms, and this doesn't seem to happen as often as mass shootings. Also, vehicles are used normally as a routine part of life; guns are not used with the same frequency, unreliable self defense statistics notwithstanding.
And nobody is trying to block all attempts to reduce opioid or motor vehicle deaths. So, yes, I do notice something, but it's not really favorable to guns.
(The other thing I notice is that huskerdru already gave a good reply to this.)
A gun can be more lethal than a car but the general principle would logically not apply to guns alone. For instance, perhaps, dangerous chemicals, or certain drugs would raise possibilities.
As I noted on the open thread, I'm agnostic until the full evidence comes out. In certain narrow cases, I (guardedly at least) would accept criminal liability.
Are you really from the Bronx? Next door in Queens the DA recently got a guilty plea to child endangerment from parents whose son drove like a maniac and killed somebody. They had given him a BMW. If they knew he liked to drive 100 mph on the frontage roads the case would be simple. There was no evidence they knew he was driving dangerously. The case against them was they knew he drove in the city at age 17. The minimum age to drive in NYC is 18.
https://queensda.org/parents-of-teen-driver-sentenced-on-child-endangerment-charges-in-groundbreaking-case-after-son-allegedly-killed-14-year-old-girl-in-gruesome-collision/
I’m missing your point.
And, no, I don't keep a close watch on coverage of local criminal cases.
I wasn't sure if your nickname was literal or a culture reference I didn't get. When I read it I hear Bruce Springsteen singing "that cat from the Bronx".
I was offering an example of a prosecutor reaching hard (overreaching) to impose liability on parents for a danerous instrument other than a gun.
It didn't turn out well for that cat from the Bronx ...
If you pass driver's ed and fulfill the other licensing requirements you can get a regular class D license at age 17, allowing you to drive unsupervised anywhere in the state, including the five boroughs.
Doesn't seem relevant here as the kid was 16 at the time of the crash, but might as well point out that 17 year olds can and do get full driving privileges in NYC.
The class D license is the wrong comparison. Public hazards associated with gun prevalence are more similar to public hazards associated with operating, maintaining, and driving school buses. Check out the licensing requirements and regulations associated with those. Heavy insurance requirements, unannounced equipment inspections, repeated government supervised medical examinations, and surprise drug tests multiple times per year for the drivers figure prominently.
The minimum age to drive in NYC is 18.
I did not know that. Does it apply to out-of-state drivers?
It’s 18 only if one hasn’t completed a certified driver’s ed course.
Has that changed? The rule used to be described as nobody under 18 ever, NY license or out of state license. I never had a reason to look closely. I try not to drive in NYC despite being over 18.
New York has three regions (NYC, Long Island, "Upstate"), each with different rules for drivers under 18. NYC allows 17-yr olds to drive if they have an adult (vs. junior) license, which they can get if they've passed driver ed and written/road tests.
"A gun can be more lethal than a car but the general principle would logically not apply to guns alone. For instance, perhaps, dangerous chemicals, or certain drugs would raise possibilities."
Georgia has a homicide statute (Georgia Code § 40-6-393) applicable where death results from the defendant's reckless driving or driving under the influence of alcohol or a drug. I haven't found a reckless homicide statute generally applicable.
Thanks. It would depend on specific state and federal laws to determine what makes you liable for criminal penalties.
My comment, to be clear to all, was discussing the general principle raised by the discussion.
I heard that the second degree murder charges were based on child abuse laws which I think is a stretch...
Things like this increase the risk and liability of having children. In a nation where the birth rate is declining, this just pours gas on that fire.
If you’re deciding not to have children because you fear you will face criminal liability due to giving a gun to a kid you’ve been warned has made threats to do a school shooting, that’s actually the right choice for both yourself and society at large.
Re-read what was written, bonehead.
RIF
I did.
“Things like this increase the risk and liability of having children. In a nation where the birth rate is declining, this just pours gas on that fire.”
The original post you are responding to is about potential criminal liability for parents that gave guns to kids who later become school shooters. Presumably that’s the “this” you were referring to in your post. You then connect “this” to a nation’s declining birth rates and indicate that “this” is a bad thing with the “gas on the fire metaphor.” So it’s easy to assume you meant that imposing criminal liability on parents in these situations will make people less likely to have kids and that will be bad for the nation. If you meant something else, you probably shouldn’t have used “this” and instead said what you actually meant.
"...giving a gun to a kid you’ve been warned has made threats to do a school shooting...
You're just making shit up.
Uh... are you Rip van Winkle except you've been asleep for 100 hours instead of years?
Why aren’t the groomers being held responsible? This is another tranny mass shooter. All the people responsible for transing this poor confused kid: the teachers, doctors, trans billionaire activists, the Feds, Hollywood, and Democrats writ large are more responsible than that poor father.
“Why aren’t the groomers being held responsible?”
Probably because you’re simply making shit up.
Kids just don't trans themselves, doofus. They are groomed by evil Democrats.
I mean that’s also just making shit up, but in this case I was referring to the made up statement that “this is another trans shooter” and the implication that many shooters are trans.
I mean if we’re being real here, you have way more in common personality wise with most mass shooters than the average trans person does. With the exception that you’re a much bigger pussy than either group.
Is there any good reason to believe that Colt Gray is transexual?
No
His social media account before it was nuked, and his long flowing girl locks and the sad demented shameful look in his eyes.
So you’re just making shit up. Got it.
When did you read the social media account, JHBHBE?
"I mostly comment on this board while I’m taking shit. I skim not study.
I like to keep my inputs/outputs consistent. Lower cognitive load.
Read shit, take a shit, talk shit, reply to shit. I keep the big brain stuff for more important matters. Like buttering up your mom."
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/08/23/lets-go-brandon-t-shirts-can-be-barred-from-middle-school-on-grounds-of-vulgarity/?comments=true#comment-10698877
"I call people who disagree with me pieces of shit"
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/09/05/thursday-open-thread-207/?comments=true#comment-10712573
Yeah so what?
That doesn’t mean I don’t believe what I say or live what I say or that it’s all a put-on.
The best snark or sarcasm is built around the truth. I’m sorry truth telling rustles your pretty pink jimmies. I know being a Statist Bootlicker, you only believe The Narrative, but us alphas dgaf about what the elites want us to believe. Only bootlicking serfs do.
btw, I don't literally take butter and lard up Frank's fat mom. Just an FYI for not guilty. I know he's gonna ask for picture proof and a 10,000 word rejoinder or some other fancy legal thing.
I have to admit that his shoulder-length hair, particularly when compared to his father's military spec haircut, is interesting -- particularly because it is a change from the shorter hair he had when younger.
That's the amazing thing about implications, they can be anything you want!
Smart!
Right. You use them to imply a bunch of fake shit to justify your odious views. It’s super obvious and you do it all the time.
Voltage!
Except, that a significantly higher percentage of mass shooters are transsexuals, than they make up as a percentage of the entire population.
How many mass shooters have been trans? I can think of one.
Where is information critical to support your bold statement recorded? I have to say I am somewhat sceptical.
This appears to be a tossed off turd by Donald Trump Jr.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/03/30/data-is-clear-there-is-no-clear-epidemic-transgender-mass-shooters/
The Dumber Don is always a good source of factual information.
Franklin TN was a gun nut like Crooks.
Franklin, Tennessee is a municipality about 20 miles south of downtown Nashville. How, pray tell, is that "a gun nut like Crooks"?
What facts support your assertion that the shooter is transgender, JHBHBE?
I ain't gonna write you a 1,000 word formal letter which you always ask others to produce on your schedule.
His social media account you head-in-the-sand clown.
Again, when did you read Colt Gray's social media?
And what content indicates that he is transgender?
The picture wearing the trans shirt and the pronouns? wtf, I agree with you that you can’t tell a tranny b/c they look like the sex they are no matter what they do, but you’re questions are stupid and pedantic.
When did I read her Twitter? At precisely 07:32 AM on Tuesday 9/1/2024 under a full moon. I know this is true because I recall a meteorite falling through the sky just as I had glanced at the clock and wall calendar before turning my head to my computer screen. I can verify this with my webcam and the hidden cam I use to make porn the Consuela my maid and her twin sister also named Consuela. What’s weird is that Consuela has bigger tits than Consuela, so it’s actually kinda hot. I also have a diary where I record my activities, just in case you need verification. I keep my diary where I hide my first edition of the infamous, and felonious, Ashley Biden diary where she recounts all the times she showered naked with her dad. Which is kinda creepy if you ask me. But as they say, potat-Oe , tomat-ah. To each his own I guess. I think i was also taking a dump at the exact moment, so we can also refer to my Turd Journal that I keep recordings of my shits for Sarcastr0.
Dang I missed the chance to say "logs". "... my Turd Journal that I keep LOGS of my shits for Sacastr0".
Dang. The future historians are gonna get a chuckle out of me missing that one!
Probably referring to this:
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2024/sep/05/viral-image/an-x-account-purporting-to-belong-to-the-apalachee/
Thank you for the link. Is anyone else unsurprised?
Because the left considers anyone who desires to shoot a thick load into a little boy's backside to be a hero.
When I was student-teaching in a special needs middle school classroom, of my students was a kid who shot himself in the head with his parents' handgun. The kid would forever live the life of someone who's shot himself in the head but survived. I never knew anything specific about the parents, but I could surmise that they would either be severely punishing themselves for the rest of the kid's life or not caring much at all while waiting for him to turn 18. I would have hoped for the former. Unfortunately no court could have sentenced them to that and made it stick.
The facts do matter. But isn't it something like a fact that adults who own firearms have some duty to ensure that no child should be able to get at the firearm while unsupervised? Or that it should be virtually impossible for a child to obtain a firearm on his own, without a parent's knowledge and consent? Watching porn surreptitiously is usually harmless, but we seem to be focusing a lot of attention on restricting kids' access to porn, some of which could be directed on the much more serious problem of kids and guns. We should be more or less hoping, IMHO, that these cases do crop up so that we can work through these issues in the public courts. Sadly, no political discussions and solutions can be expected from Congress or the states.
I'd like to see the same rule for guns and cars, statistically the latter are far more lethal.
The US sees something like 8 billion rounds of ammunition purchased and 3.5 trillion miles driven per year, with slightly more gun deaths than motor vehicle deaths in 2021 (as I posted above). Is 400 miles driven statistically equivalent to one round of ammunition? One murder per 400,000 rounds of ammunition, one motor vehicle death per 75,000,000 miles driven.
That is interesting.
Where did you get this idea?
The second degree murder counts as to the father appear to be quite a stretch.
Per Georgia Code § 16-5-1(d), a person commits the offense of murder in the second degree when, in the commission of cruelty to children in the second degree, he or she causes the death of another human being irrespective of malice. According to § 16-5-70(c), a person commits the offense of cruelty to children in the second degree when such person with criminal negligence causes a child under the age of 18 cruel or excessive physical or mental pain. Criminal negligence is an act or failure to act which demonstrates a willful, wanton, or reckless disregard for the safety of others who might reasonably be expected to be injured thereby, per § 16-2-1(b).
The father's culpable mental state and causation may be difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
My friend Bloggins thinks the nation is missing an opportunity to turn its gun plague around. He wants to make the nation’s private arsenals do useful work.
Bloggins raises a question of state-law self-defense justification for bullied students from middle school onward. He advocates a legal principle that self-defense immunity should apply to bullied students who fight back with deadly force.
Bloggins does not want to go overboard. He thinks immunity should be strictly limited to cases where school records show groups of specifically-named students who bully others in commonly targeted categories—mostly gay students, (including straight students targeted as gay by classmates). Also protected would be cognitively disabled students who had been bullied, especially kids with autism.
Whether other bullied students would be protected Bloggins would leave as a question for juries to decide on a case-by-case basis. Bloggins suggests jury instructions include a principle of legal analogy to specifically enumerated self-defense justifications for those in protected categories.
Thus, at least kids in protected categories could not be prosecuted if they killed those who bullied them. And of course parents of bullying targets would escape prosecution if they justifiably supplied weapons, and encouraged their progeny to defend themselves by killing their tormentors.
When I asked Bloggins about killings made in good-faith-but-mistaken belief that a student was a bully, Bloggins said he was unsure. I do not think Bloggins has thought through all the implications of his proposals. But Bloggins did say he was leaning toward legal protection for bullied students who killed school administrators who tolerated bullying, and did nothing to stop it.
As for deaths or injuries suffered by innocent bystanders, Bloggins said that those ought to be a non-issue. He insists it is well-established already that those are just a price that must regrettably be paid to get rid of school bullying.
Your slightly disguised criticism of Israel is not even funny; it's just stupid
Nico — Bloggins is an old friend. He is so over the top I rarely see fit to pass on his too-often outlandish views. But I assure you from decades-long experience, Bloggins remains literal to a fault. He is never figurative. Nor have I ever had indication that Bloggins gave Israel a moment's thought. He may never even have heard of it. He is that out of touch.
As a life-long Idahoan, Bloggins knows only enough to acknowledge that living there is somewhat like living in the United States, but not the same. Like nearly every adult male Idahoan, Bloggins considers himself a born-and-bred expert on gun policy. That was the only topic he meant to discuss in the comment above.
Cool story bro.
That actually is what happened yesterday in Maryland. There was a fight in the boy's bathroom and one kid (known to the police as a victim in the past) fatally shot the other.
I read about that. "Authorities were prevented by state law from questioning the [16-year old] suspect." Not sure how I feel about that as a general principle.
The statute is at Md. Code, Cts. & Jud. Proc. § 3-8A-14.2. It generally prohibits custodial interrogations until:
(1) The child has consulted with an attorney; and
(2) Law enforcement has notified the child's parent/guardian.
There's also a rebuttable presumption of inadmissibility for any statement made where LE has willfully failed to comply.
Personally, I have less of a problem with that, now that I've read it.
Being bullied is no excuse to use dealy physical force. That's just a ridiculous argument. A bullied student can just walk away, and change schools. As bad as bullying may be, it is not the presentation of deadly physical force.
Get a brain.
Being bullied is no excuse to use dealy physical force.
Oh but being a bit unnerved by a Black kid is a totally legit use of deadly force, amiright?
Who made this claim?
It's an idiot Zimmerman/Martin reference.
I'll grant that anyone would be unnerved by being sucker punched out of the blue, thrown to the ground, and having somebody repeatedly punching their head into the pavement. But "unnerved" still seems a disingenuous way to describe it.
While I do think whites who shoot blacks in self-defense situations should get the benefit of the doubt in most cases, being "a bit unnerved" does not qualify.
The interesting question here is *if* parents are held criminally liable for children's misbehavior, can that then become a defense against child abuse charges?
What's not being said is that -- going all the way back to Columbine -- school shooters inevitably have been bullied and they are fighting back.
No. This has been yet another episode of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
Ever notice how none of the things you think are "interesting questions" are either interesting or sane?
I am too lazy to research: Does anyone know if the Michigan parents are appealing their conviction?
They are.
The state says a parent cannot even prevent a child from having permanent life changing surgery, and will even help the kid hide it from the parents; how can they possibly be responsible for anything?
Are there any prosecutions of ghetto moms for this type of crime that can serve as precedent?
I know of Deja Taylor, but she plead guilty so there wasn’t an argument of what the legal standard is.