The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
The First Amendment Is an Arms Control Agreement
One of the functions of the First Amendment is to create a kind of arms control agreement: With respect to censorship, all sides agree to lay down their arms.
A personal confession: While I much enjoy writing, it was not a lot of fun to write parts of my new book on free speech on campus. Writing about the vicissitudes of fame or about habituation, is fun as well as intriguing; there's a lot there that's funny.
But writing about racist, sexist, and antisemitic speech doesn't exactly produce a bright smile.
Here's something that might produce, if not a smile, at least a nod: Seeing the First Amendment, in its current form, as an arms control agreement. Some people would much like to ban critical race theory on campus. Other people would like to ban teaching, or perhaps speech, that puts the United States and U.S. history in the most unfavorable light—emphasizing, for example, what might be seen as the centrality of slavery and racism.
Some people would like to ban antisemitic speech on campus. Other people would like to ban racist and sexist speech, regarding it as incompatible with the educational mission. How, it might be asked, can students learn, if they are demeaned by virtue of their skin color or their gender?
If we understand the First Amendment as an arms control agreement, we can give essentially the same answer to all these people. Properly understood, the Constitution requires all censors to lay down their arms.
Whether we are speaking of Florida or Texas, or Washington DC, or the University of California or the University of Mississippi, the First Amendment stands as a barrier. The right may be concerned with the erosion of patriotism or traditional values. The left may concerned with the maintenance of white supremacy or what is happening in the Middle East. So be it. Still, no point of view may be forbidden.
All this is a bit abstract, so let's bring it down to earth. The clearest account of the First Amendment as an arms control agreement came in 1943. That was highly improbable, because the United States was in the midst of World War II, when free speech might not be expected to have anything like a high water mark.
West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette raised the question whether school children could be compelled to salute the American flag—and to say the Pledge of Allegiance.
Justice Frankfurter's remarkable dissenting opinion is a good place to start. A Jew, Frankfurter began with an unusually personal word: "One who belongs to the most vilified and persecuted minority in history is not likely to be insensible to the freedoms guaranteed by our Constitution." But, he added, "as judges, we are neither Jew nor Gentile, neither Catholic nor agnostic. We owe equal attachment to the Constitution, and are equally bound by our judicial obligations whether we derive our citizenship from the earliest or the latest immigrants to these shores."
Frankfurter argued that the Supreme Court should defer to the decision of the state of West Virginia, which was to require the salute and pledge.
Writing for the Court, Justice Robert Jackson produced what is, in my view, the greatest opinion in the history of the Supreme Court. He had a lot to say about education in general: " Free public education, if faithful to the ideal of secular instruction and political neutrality, will not be partisan or enemy of any class, creed, party, or faction." The fact that boards of education "are educating the young for citizenship is reason for scrupulous protection of Constitutional freedoms of the individual, if we are not to strangle the free mind at its source and teach youth to discount important principles of our government as mere platitudes."
And Jackson ventured more broadly. "Struggles to coerce uniformity of sentiment in support of some end thought essential to their time and country have been waged by many good, as well as by evil, men." With his eye directly on Hitler and fascism, he added, "Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard."
In his view, "the First Amendment to our Constitution was designed to avoid these ends by avoiding these beginnings."
Thus the most famous sentence in Jackson's opinion: "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us."
That, in short, is the arms control agreement. We should immediately note that it cannot easily be squared with the original public meaning of the First Amendment. The best historical evidence suggests that the founding generation had a much more limited understanding of freedom of speech, and that the general conception of neutrality, signaled by Jackson, emerged pretty recently.
Though traceable to the 1940s, the arms control agreement did not firm up until the 1960s. These are noteworthy facts. It is perhaps unsurprising that a robust understanding of free speech would develop during the war against fascism, and that it would be specified and concretized during the fierce debates, many of them on campus, of the 1960s.
For the current period, the lesson is not obscure. College and university administrators have been, and might be, sorely tempted to punish points of view that are inconsistent with their values and that seem beyond the pale. They should avoid that temptation. They should lay down their arms.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
The question then becomes--what can people do to protect their right to speak. Can I walk past a pro-Palestinian encampment wearing an Israeli uniform? Defend myself if attacked?
When an encampment is tolerated by the police and the miscreants are demanding loyalty oaths as a condition to go to class, I would say that self-help is totally ok.
Weirdly, that is NOT the question.
There is so much wrong here it's hard to even start. But let us make it real basic-
The FA protects your right to mouth off, like you just did, without gummint telling you not to (it's more complicated, but that's the basics). And it protects the rights of other to tell you that you're an idiot.
It doesn't protect your right to "self-help."
"Weirdly, that is NOT the question."
Actually, it is.
Last time I checked, "Assault" and "Battery" are crimes in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts -- and I suspect elsewhere.
You have the right to wear an IDF uniform (or full Klan regalia) and to expect that anyone who physically assaults you will be prosecuted and punished. That's part of the "social contract."
"Heckler's veto" is something else, and there might be copyright (?) issues with you wearing a uniform the IDF doesn't authorize you to wear, but no one can assault you for wearing it and you have a right to self defense.
Oh boy.
Thank you for your contribution. And this has to do with the FA how?
Put more simply- the right to "self-help" (aka, issues involving fisticuffs with other private parties) isn't really what we are talking about.
But cool story!
This has to do with the 1st amendment because the state can't outsource it's 1st amendment violations by simply refraining from prosecuting people who assault those the state wishes would shut up.
.... I think you are missing, entirely, what the question was. Assuming the good faith of the question.
Assume private party A is wearing a provocative message, and they walk past evil person B, who dislikes that message.
Evil person B attacks A. That isn't the FA, that's criminal law.
Pretty simple. You're welcome.
Unless the State declines to prosecute Person B, because it agrees with Person B that Person A's "provocative message" deserves punishment.
If the state is choosing not to prosecute a violent crime, then there are certainly issues. Real issues. Big issues. Of course, this does happen- you can replace "provocative message" with "revealing clothing" and get a similarly bad result.
But that's not a FA issue; that's a different governance issue.
(I am quite sure that you can keep on changing the hypo to make some kind of point, but that's the problem with these threads. People just want to confirm their own a priori beliefs, not actually understand any of the issues.)
You're somewhat bilious today.
I shall answer you're point a bit lower down, as it's the same point.
I'm just annoyed because the OP is actually good and interesting (and if people bothered reading to the conclusion before typing their usual stuff, they might realize it is making a salient point).
And you would think that something as well-known and commonly accepted as "First Amendment jurisprudence and robust free speech protections that we enjoy today are a product of the 20th century," wouldn't be remotely controversial. But I didn't know I was in the company of so many scholars. *shrug*
See Prof. Volokh's article about Heckler's Veto.
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/03/25/hecklers-veto-two-related-meanings/
The anti-Semitic Hamas supporting little scunges want to ban all sorts of things, including the state of Israel. But no one, not even the victims of their offensive comments wants to ban their right to speak. They want to ban their physical harassment, their mob like occupations, their defacement of monuments. But not their speech.
You can add to the list their cowardice, hiding behind masks and scarves, maybe not so proud of their behavior.
Interesting and good post. I appreciate that you noted that our current, and robust, FA protection is not an "originalist" doctrine.
When people talk about originalism, they elide these important points. The massive and robust protection we have for free speech is neither rooted in the text ("Congress shall make no law" seems pretty specific!) nor is it rooted in original understanding; instead, it's rooted in 20th century jurisprudence.
And I happen to like robust free speech protection.
A much underappreciated point.
"“Congress shall make no law” seems pretty specific!"
This is kind of a silly point. At the federal level, basically all the power exercised by the executive branch, except for pardons and the immediate conduct of war, is at least nominally based on Congressional legislation. This means that, if Congress can make no law infringing on freedom of speech, or of the Press, the executive and legislative branchs, in enforcing laws, can't infringe them either.
Then you've got the 14th amendment, which extended this prohibition to the states.
So, "Congress" shall make no law is actually pretty inclusive.
““Congress shall make no law” seems pretty specific!”
This is kind of a silly point."
Woosh. As usual, Brett, you're just an originalist when it's convenient. I appreciate that you spouted words, but you haven't actually thought about what those words mean. Go ahead. Think through them for a second. There is a reason I wrote what I wrote.
If you want to educate yourself on the actual history and understanding of the FA, you should do that. But if you just want to believe that what we have today that matches you policy preferences (and is all 20th century jurisprudence), then feel free to continue not putting in the work.
I am addressing only the old, "It says Congress can't do this, so everybody else still can!" argument. I'm well aware that the 1st amendment has never been treated as being as absolute as its words would indicate.
Odd you posted that in response to loki noting FA protection is not an originalist doctrine, if you were responding to a whole different argument no one made.
Are you, though? Let's do this in TWO PARTS! Because I know that you're a real scholar that has done the work!
1. You addressed the argument. So, you are saying that the modern conception (rhymes with "late traction") is synonymous with Congressional laws (Congress shall make no law ...)? There aren't any cases, ever, of LATE TRACTION that might be an FA violation that isn't pursuant to a Congressional law?
2. You say that you are "well aware" that the First Amendment "has never been treated" in a certain way. So, you are totally familiar with the 18th and 19th century understandings on it? You've done the deep dive?
Cool cool. So explain to us, like we are slightly dumb golden retrievers, what that was!
Arf. Bark, arf, growl.
Clear?
Pretty much what I expected.
I wonder what it must be like to be so absolutely confident about so many complicated things?
*shrug*
"I wonder what it must be like to be so absolutely confident about so many complicated things?"
You seem to have a clear handle on that.
Ummm, the 14th Amendment changed EVERYTHING....
Cool cool. Because, of course, I have no idea what incorporation means. Heck, I probably wouldn't know Gitlow if you gave me the cite and told me the holding!
But just try to think this through? I mean, You understand that some case ... can't quite name it ... is also a part of the MODERN FA JURISPRUDENCE?
I swear, if people would just stop before they start typing. Think. Please.
Actually, incorporation is an originalist idea, since it was, after all, one of the original purposes of the 14th amendment. And originalists maintain that the Constitution's meaning remains fixed until amended. The 14th amendment changed the meaning of the Constitution to incorporate rights against the states that had formerly only applied to the federal government.
The only complaint originalists have about incorporation doctrine is that it was supposed to be via the P&I clause, and not quite so selective.
Yep. Cool story, but missing something really important.*
I would wait, but when someone is determined to not understand something, no amount of clues will help them.
*Of course, we could also discuss incorporation, and when it occurred, and what case it first happened in, and what that means for this conversation. Man, I wish someone could possibly think of it!
Incorporation as original intent is how Hugo Black saw it. But as I've learned since law school, that understanding is hardly universally held by historians or legal academics or lawyers.
originalists maintain that the Constitution’s meaning remains fixed until amended
Unless you listen to Will Baude, a well known originalist.
"Well known originalist" to his Mom perhaps.
If his mom is in the constellation of people who can intelligently discuss these issues, sure.
It would be wonderful if people here would actually be able to discuss Black's jurisprudence and why he had to make those "speech/not speech" mental gymnastics.
So you would describe (for instance) a supervisor at the District of Columbia DMV firing an employee for supporting Trump on Facebook as Congress making a law? Because I don’t think most people would!
Careful, Noscitur. First, you end up in a long conversation about the difference between Congress and, um, LATE TRACTION.
Next thing you know, you're discussing the finer points of why Justice Black was trying to make those fine "speech/ not speech" distinctions!
No, I wouldn't describe it as him making a law. I'd describe him acting contrary to or outside the law, because no law Congress could constitutionally enact could authorize such behavior.
.... wow. This is so wrong, I don't even know where to start. Truly. I was going to try and discuss "facially" and "as applied," but given the lack of understanding of how this works (and that those distinctions are modern) why bother?
The trouble with you anti-text folk is that you're outta practice in reading text. Which, in this case, is ...
"Congress shall make no law .....abridging the freedom of speech"
Note that this doesn't say :
"explicitly abridging" or "intended to abridge"
it just says abridging. It therefore applies to any law which does in fact abridge the freedom of speech. Thus in Noscitur's hypo, Congress has passed a law funding the District of Columbia DMV. The funds have been used to employ the supervisor, who has punished the Trump supporting employee's speech.
The law funding the DC DMV is therefore unconstitutional, as applied to the use to which the Congressionally enacted funding has been put. The fact that the law made no mention of abridging speech is irrelevant. What matters is that that the law has had the effect of abridging speech, and is therefore unconstitutional to the extent that it has that effect.
That Congress might not have intended that effect is equally irrelevant. The courts are entitled - using one of those Roberts saving constructions - to interpret the law as limiting the use of funds to those which avoid making the law unconstitutional.
Lee, and I mean this in the nicest possible way …
Did you read what I wrote? Look at it again. Think about it.
Now apply it to what you are writing here.
I will say this again- if you actually want to understand the history of the FA, and what people thought hundreds of years ago, go for it.
But what you wrote is exactly why I hate the types of analysis we see in the threads. It just presupposes modern understanding and how courts work and puts those understandings back in time, without any actual thought as to what the text says specifically, or what it meant at the time.
Because spitballin’ ideas is not a substitute for cogent legal analysis.
What reason, if any, do you have to believe that "no law ... abridging..." meant something different at the end of the 18th century from what it means today ?
My analysis of the text has nothing to do with how the courts work today, it simply analyses the text. It has nothing to do with the history of the FA, because that too is irrelevant to the text. If ancient judges arrived at different conclusions using different interpretative methods, how does that affect the original meaning of the text ?
The question is simply - what does the text mean and did it mean something different two hundred years ago ?
PS - you said "why bother ?' - what exactly did you mean that I should think about in more detail ?
Look at the post you responded to. I explicitly mentioned the distinction between "facially" and "as applied." That's what you're doing (although arguing that funding DC is the FA violation... I mean, okay then!).
But again, people are both ignoring the text (because "Congress shall make no law" is not the same as LATE TRACTION) and also the history. When the FA was put in, the guarantees were assumed to be the same as what we wanted as free Britons- the right to be free from PRIOR RESTRAINT.
The idea that this applied in any way to punishment only happened later, and solidified with Story. It's impossible to explain all of this in a comment here given how different things were- for example, it used to be in America that "the greater the truth, the greater the libel." Luckily, we quickly moved past that.
And so on. So what I'm saying is- learn. Really. If you care and are interested, it's fascinating. Don't just try to score cheap points. If you want to participate in actual conversations, then do so.
I am pretty good about conversing with reasonable people. Less so with people who keep asserting things that show me that they don't really care about the actual answers.
I’m sorry I don’t get LATE TRACTION. But since it doesn’t appear in the text I feel it is safe to ignore it. So I distinguish facially and as applied, which was the point you insist on, and your deep counter analysis runs to …. “I mean OK then !” So far I’m missing this claimed talent of your for conversing with reasonable people – though I’m pleased to see that you’re a little less bilious than higher up.
It’s interesting that you keep on quoting “Congress shall make no law” and keep on leaving out ” abridging … the freedom of speech.” My textual analysis involves both, of course.
You’re perfectly welcome to argue that the original meaning of “the freedom of speech” was not some infinite stretch of speech turf, but was limited to THE freedom of speech that was then extant. And that that particular THE freedom was limited to prior restraint. That’s a textual argument.
The difficulty is sketching out this limited “THE” zone in a context of various different limitations imposed by Kings and individual states. What is THE freedom of speech if Virginia and Massachussetts have different restrictions at the operative time ? Which THE gets slotted into the federal constitution ? Which is why the infinite turf general hypothetical freedom reading is easier to justify, as an interpretation of the text, than any particular limited version.
Of course you don't get (rhymes with) LATE TRACTION.
Just like you don't get the other jokes. Or understand what I have explained to you.
You'd need ... a little more background. On the internet, no one knows you're a dog. But you can easily tell which people on the VC have a base of knowledge, and which don't.
Again, the FA is cool. Maybe you should ... learn a little. Or not!
Here.
Want something fun?
Read Patterson v. Colorado (1907). Pay attention to what Holmes say about the main point of the First Amendment (205 U.S. 454, 462).
Then compare to ... wait for it ... Gitlow (1925). Notice Holmes opinion in dissent.
There was a real change. Understanding that change explains a lot about the First Amendment, and why things are the way they are now.
Thank you for those two citations....
....in neither of which Justice Holmes attempts any textual analysis whatsoever.
In the first case he states ex cathedra :
"In the first place, the main purpose of such constitutional provisions is "to prevent all such previous restraints upon publications as had been practiced by other governments," and they do not prevent the subsequent punishment of such as may be deemed contrary to the public welfare."
Which may or may not be a good take on the purpose of the 1st Amendment. But as you will be aware, purpose has diddley squat to do with the original meaning of the text, which is what in question here (since you asserted that "modern" 1A precedent is untethered to the original meaning.)
In the second case he goes full Breyer and merely bloviates on policy questions.
Since the guy makes not even a trial canter at the text, and makes as you say a "real change" between the two cases, you merely confirm that relying on judicial spoutings is a poor basis for a system of law. Better to stick to the text. On which Justice Holmes appears to be of no help at all.
/facepalm
I thought you might actually be curious about, you know, real history and stuff. Which is why I gave you something interesting. Because (no offense ... but) I don't really find you opining about your thoughts on the text of the First Amendment particularly enlightening. Given, you know, your lack of interest in the abundance of information out there.
Unfortunately, I learned my mistake. Have a good one.
You're welcome to prefer judicial bloviation to the text as your interpretive scheme, but if you want to make a point about what is and what isn't justified under an originalist approach, you have to make a point about the text.
I snuck off to read your cites on the assumption that you understood that, and that I would find Justice Holmes making some point about the text. He didn't.
Seriously, Lee.
Not everything is about scoring points on the internet. I gave you the two opinions because if you want to start seriously thinking about the FA and how we got to the place we are today, that’s a good start.
If, on the other hand, you simply want to continue asserting what you think the text means, without doing any of the work (which isn’t what you think the text means, but what the text would have meant at the time it was written) than I can’t stop you, and it’s pointless trying to have a conversation with someone who literally read those two cases (which any person who is serious about the FA knows), and the only thing they can say is, “HA! You didn’t give me anything to rebut my textualism argument, which is based entirely on my modern understanding of words and how courts work.”
But sure, you can avail yourself of Anderson v. Dunn, if you want some old-timey jurisprudence. Knock yourself out.
…I am reminded why I don’t regularly engage in substantive conversation now.
This has eerie echoes of that time I tried to explain the ex post facto clause, and gave them the facts (and quotes) that it was (1) well established in Blackstone, (2) was referenced in the notes of the Convention as to its meaning, and (3) had a contemporary Supreme Court case interpreting it.
…and they still insisted that as a matter of text, it didn’t just apply to criminal laws. Whatever. Have a good night.
I gave you the two opinions because if you want to start seriously thinking about the FA and how we got to the place we are today
We're obviously talking past each other. I have no interest in "how we got to the place we are today." I'm interested in whether and why where we are today is justified by reference to the text.
I already know that judges happily pull stuff from their rear ends. I'm more interested in judges who can explain that the text means "this" because {reasons.} Or even VC commentrs who are up to that task.
If you didn't want me to bang on about originalism, you shouldn't have introduced the subject.
Fine. Again, feel free to educate yourself on the actual history and meaning.
It’s not what you keep asserting. But you don’t want to do the work. So … not really worth the conversation, is it?
Think of it this way- why should someone who understands some stuff (not every thing, but some things) bother to talk to people who don’t want to do the work, but just keep insisting that what they are saying (which is neither originalist, nor textualist) is true?
Because if you don’t have even a basic grasp of things- if, for example, you just blow through Holmes in Gitlow and don’t even stop to think for a second, then I am wasting my time.
Again, good to know. So just think yourself right, and carry on. Or, you know, try reading the other case (Anderson) if you want a real feel for originalism. I mean … at least how courts used to write opinions and discuss the Constitution. You know, how it was expected.
I blew through Holmes in Gitlow quickly because it's a short opinion, in which he states as his fundamental point, quoting from another case :
“The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive
evils that [the State] has a right to prevent."
It's a policy argument. It has nothing to do with the text of the 1st Amendment.
If you thought that is why it is interesting (other than, you know, the reason I have to cite it on the reg), then you truly have missed the point. Because it is to contrast with the point of what he wrote in Anderson, which is grounded in an originalist take that was still prevalent in 1907.
Anyway, if you actually want to learn about things that other people might know about, I would recommend asking. As it stands, since you already know everything, I don't think I will engage with you in the future on substantive matters. Take care.
What Anderson are you refering to kemosabe ? The only Anderson you mentioned before was heard 20 years before Justice Holmes was born, so it seems unlikely that he wrote much in the case, with an originalist take or ortherwise.
If you meant Patterson then as I have explained he did not offer an originalist take, he offered a purposive take :
“In the first place, the main purpose of such constitutional provisions is “to prevent all such previous restraints upon publications as had been practiced by other governments,” and they do not prevent the subsequent punishment of such as may be deemed contrary to the public welfare.”
The clue is the deployment of "main purpose."
I’m not sure if there *was* an original meaning, considering how quickly after the Founding we had both the Sedition Act and the opposition to that Act, with both sides claiming that they had the better interpretation of the First Amendment.
The best approach is to see which interpretation of the First Amendment is most suitable to the republican (small r) form of government under which we supposedly live.
I have educated myself somewhat about Alexander Meiklejohn’s free-speech theories, and while I’m not saying I fully accept them, the good professor had a point. If we’re to govern ourselves, we should be able to discuss different options, which requires a broad freedom of expression.
In theory, I’d say that some ideas, once firmly established through the process of debate and contention, should be considered settled. But in the field of politics this principle is easily abused. If we say, for instance, that racist views have received a full airing, that such views have been weighed in the balance and found wanting, and that such views are therefore to be excluded from the public square, then the censors will simply call everything they dislike racist (including equal opportunity itself).
All the Alien and Sedition acts demonstrate, is that the anti-Federalists were spot on about the Federalists, and the need for a bill of rights. The existence of the 1st amendment, by itself, doesn't prevent Congress from enacting laws in violation of it.
You have to look at the reaction to those acts: They were widely attacked as contrary to the 1st amendment.
They demonstrate more than that. They clearly demonstrate that the understanding of the text of 1A was different at the end of the 18th Century for many political actors of the time. Which clearly demonstrates that there was no single original public meaning of the text, the great chimera of originalism.
So, a proper understanding of the original public meanings of ‘no’ and of ‘Congress’ would and should entail what, exactly, ESPECIALLY if one also accepts the incorporation doctrine?
For example, why shouldn’t defamation law be deemed to have fallen by the wayside after incorporation of the 1A in application to the US states (So that 'Congress' now includes/covers state legislatures)?
Why wouldn’t, or couldn’t, an originalist understanding of the 1A, coupled with incorporation, entail more free speech than the current doctrine currently permits? (Especially when considered in conjunction with ‘the’ original public meaning of ‘necessary & proper’, of ‘law’ (such that the executive branch cannot make it), etc?
I always thought the concept of 'sunshine is the best disinfectant' made the most sense to me. That is, people with opinions or views that most respectable people deem terrible or simply wrong...the best way to combat them is to let them express them so they expose themselves to the world as the idiots they are.
And then counter their views with alternatives.
I know there is a line in the sand somewhere where letting people 'peaceably assemble' to express their views turns into obstruction/disorderly conduct (particularly of late on campuses) and interfering with students actually getting to class or feeling safe on campus to attend class may be where the line needs to be enforced. But if some Hamas supporting campus anti-semite wants to write an OP/ED in the student paper I would argue to print it. Then share it. Let them bask in their newfound celebrity so that everybody else knows exactly who to avoid, who not to hire, etc....
As far as mandating what can be taught or not taught...that seems silly to me. I don't trust my local schoolboard of mainly non-teachers and random parents who have no knowledge or training in the subject to dictate to those who do what should or should not be taught or how to teach it. While public schools are not going to be Montessori type I'd rather my kids 3rd grade teacher who has a master's degree in early childhood education call the shots in her classroom than the local dipshit whose most legitimate claim to subject matter expertise is getting his wife pregnant. Just my .02cents.
Your 2 cents suck.
Imagine thinking a credentialed government employee should take precedent over a parent's right to choose what is taught to their own children. You seem to have forgotten what the government's role is and who the customer is.
Thankfully, those schoolboards do exist and that credentialed government employee is kept in check. Hopefully, more and more states attach the money to the students and not the school district.
Swede425 apparently doesn’t understand the difference between Sunday School and Monday School.
Parents can teach whatever they want to their children while education departments (state, county, local), set their curricula.
Are you implying that the public doesn't have oversight of what is taught to their children in public schools?
There is definitely somebody who doesn't understand here, and he's standing in your mirror.
The public has collective oversight over what is taught collectively to children in the public schools, but parents don't have individual say over what is taught to their specific children in public schools. (Sometimes schools allow that — for instance, sex ed is often opt out — but it is not required that they do so.)
Parents/the people elect school boards and politicians to decide whether "education departments" should even exist (they shouldn't) and if so, what they should do. These public servants are then supposed to carry out that will as their agent.
Having worked with and observed a whole lot of teachers over the years (and even been one once), I can say that there are some great teachers - and a whole lot of bad ones. Some teachers can be trusted to develop a full curriculumn unassisted. For the rest? Well, it's important to remember that school boards full of non-teachers were created for a reason.
Think of it like the civilian control of the military. There are really good historical reasons why you don't want the generals in charge even though they are necessary for operational control. The school board is the "civilian" oversight of the people who may be too close to their own discipline to hold onto the big picture.
The traditional way to solve the problem you outline would be to raise the pay of teachers.
Because raising the pay of generals would eliminate the inherent conflicts of interest? Because raising the pay of everyone magically introduces accountability into an unaccountable system? Not hardly.
Increased pay should be a result of improved output. You cannot merely assume causation.
You have a problem where a lot of your workers are not up to snuff, you increase the pay.
You're adding in unsupported complications like conflict of interest, or lack of accountability.
In fact, what do you mean lack of accountability? Teachers don't get tenure.
While I agree with you basic point (raising the level of pay would attract better teachers), I do understand what Rossami is saying too.
While teachers don't have tenure, it is also the case that de facto, it is nearly impossible to fire a teacher in many places.
Yeah, that seems a bad policy. Maybe end that and increase teacher pay.
Education, as they say, is the sliver bullet.
Ever see the Key and Peele TeachingCenter skit?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYOg8EON29Y
Yes! So good. Love Key & Peele!
Reforming education is one of those "must do" things that is just too hard, it seems, so we keep muddling through.
(I should add .... nearly impossible for performance. AFAIK, actual terrible misconduct can still get you fired in most places.)
Raising the level of pay would attract more teachers, certainly. It would attract more incompetent teachers, as well as more competent ones.
To be sure, to the extent that potential competent teachers are avoiding the teaching profession due to pay, you might see some shift towards more competent applicants at the margins.
But without some mechanism for distinguishing the competent from the incompetent, and getting rid of the latter, all raising pay would do is get more money spent.
Good lord, Brett. Yes, offering more pay gets you more talented people. Don’t be stupid just because you hate schools.
1. A larger pool of applicants means a higher talent ceiling.
2. More talented people demand higher pay for the jobs they will consider within their talent set.
3. Every single application process – job, grant, or admissions, is selecting at minimum to to avoid letting incompetent people through. This is not always an easy problem but to claim it’s an impossible on is demonstrably false.
My point is that it gets you more people, period. More competent AND incompetent people. It's all down to the selection after that, both pre AND post hiring.
"Every single application process – job, grant, or admissions, is selecting at minimum to to avoid letting incompetent people through."
Theoretically, yeah. Forgive me for doubting that this works in an industry that thinks measuring competence by looking at the quality of the output is wrong.
Disagree on the pay. Among my colleagues there is no correlation between who does the most complaining about their paycheck versus who is the better teacher. And an applicant who is only interested in which job pays the most is not a good pick.
The best teachers are attracted and retained (a) a work environment where they’ll be among, and supervised by, other competent professionals, and (b) being at a school with good students supported by parents that get it.
That second part means unfortunately that it will always be easier to get good teachers in nice suburban districts, and where the school board is dominated by parents with day jobs rather than activists of any type looking to make a name for themselves.
At the moment, teaching is a job you take if you have a calling, not if you want to make a living. So sure you can look at marginal differences, but you're not going to be in competition with much beyond that sector.
But what if you flipped that?
(To digress a bit, for kids these days the driving metric for STEM at least is entry level pay and opportunities for mobility. Not like it was when I was young when stability was key!)
According to the NEA, the average teacher salary is $70,000 a year. What do you think it should be to count as “mak[ing] a living”?
Point is, people don't go into teaching for the $$. And 70K career average salary is apparently not enough to bring in outside talent.
With the proviso that my only policy experience is STEM teaching jobs, but as I said in my parenthetical above, If you want to flip that narrative, the key number these days isn't the average salary, it's the starting salary.
Which has a national average of $44.5K.
For 180 days of work -- 1/2 a year.
On behalf of the teachers I know, Ed, fuck off with that nonsense.
"On behalf of the teachers I know, Ed, fuck off with that nonsense."
Another profane response to a reasonable point.
Why shouldn't we factor things like a reduced work-year into the salary of teachers?
Do the teachers you know expect to be paid more if asked to teach during the summer, or do they say that getting to teach during the summer is its own reward?
They don't work only half the year, TiP.
They don’t work the whole year. All you’ve got is a quibble?
"In fact, what do you mean lack of accountability? Teachers don’t get tenure."
What planet are you on, Gaslight0?
Yes, teachers are hired for an annual (school year) contract.
But in every state I am aware of, once the teacher has successfully completed three contracts, the district is LEGALLY REQUIRED to offer continuing contracts to teachers until the teacher doesn't accept one. So yes, they have lifetime tenure.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/08/31/the-rubber-room
A moment’s Googling shows contracts in VA continue “during good behavior and competent service.” § 22.1-304
So despite your 2009 New Yorker Article, which was quite well circulated at the time, you may once again be full of shit.
Loki has a much more moderate ‘in practice’ point above that is much harder to argue with. Maybe learn a bit from his approach.
Now go look up what VA court precedents have determined "good behavior and competent service" to mean. In particular, let's see what you find about teachers successfully fired for incompetence.
I'll also note that in my area (not VA), teachers as far down as kindergarten explicitly get "tenure" and it is worded as exactly that. Once they've passed a probationary period, they are functionally impossible to fire short of a felony conviction involving inappropriate conduct with a student.
Not what Ed said. More like what Loki said.
My reaction to that is above.
“You have a problem where a lot of your workers are not up to snuff, you increase the pay.”
No…. Because then you have the same workers who are still not up to snuff, but they’re just being paid a lot more.
That's like paying a contractor to work on your house, they do a crappy job, so you pay them more money?
Whatever you thought I was talking about, I think you have it wrong.
The supply of labor for a given job is not fixed when you vary the wages. Absent some edge cases, higher wages mean you get more applicants for new hires.
“higher wages mean you get more applicants for new hires”
Higher wages also mean you get less turnover in the current workers. And if your CURRENT workforce already is “not up to snuff”, increasing their pay so that they REALLY won’t leave doesn’t fix anything. In fact, it may make it worse. Because the "not up to snuff" workers don't dare leave their very well paying job..they know they couldn't get nearly as good a job elsewhere.
Additionally, if you're just offering higher wages, without any other qualifications, what you get is rent seeking behavior, where new people get in by "knowing" someone on the inside (the current "not up to snuff" workforce), and the learn from the same "not up to snuff" workforce to teach in the same "not up to snuff" way.
There are ways to allow turnover beyond encouraging retirement through low pay. One of which is firing, but hardly the only one (buy-outs, mandatory retirement, etc.)
Generally hiring is a competition, where the most talented gets it to the best that can be figured out. It is not a threshold qualification.
You’re just throwing chaff up none of which apply to this situation.
And you're still calling me an antisemite, which at this point just makes you look like an idiot.
"You have a problem where a lot of your workers are not up to snuff, you increase the pay."
Sigh. No, throwing money at the problem doesn't magically solve it. As Brett points out, raising teacher pay attracts more teachers, but administrators have the motivation and skillset to use the increased talent to produce the outcomes the public desires.
An unmotivated or incompetent administration will pay teachers more, sure, but they might not get better outcomes.
"In fact, what do you mean lack of accountability? Teachers don’t get tenure."
Rossami said the system was unaccountable. If there's no accountability for the people hiring and firing the teachers, there's no accountability.
For there to be accountability, the elected school boards need to be willing and able to fire the administrators who aren't producing the outcomes that the public desires. And that includes the content of the curriculum.
And ultimately, the public needs to be willing to elect school board members who will do what they want.
I thought Garcetti v. Ceballos, 547 U.S. 410 (2006), was fairly clear. If its in the course of your employment, the government can control what you say. The arms embargo framework works great for out-of-classroom or at least not required or prohibited speech for employees. But as to teachers, the state can (and I would suggest has an obligation) to ensure a high quality of education provided. That can mean prohibiting teaching of critical race theory or intelligent design, etc. But if people want to discuss or advocate ideas outside of the classroom, both sides of any issue should be discussed openly.
The arms control analogy looks good but starts to fail when limited public resources and opinions on obscenity and educational values require choices which might amount to back-door censorship. And we see increasing numbers of protestors whose screeching "speech" is about disrupting robust public discussion of some issues, such that government inaction looks like a thumb on the viewpoint scale. But I suppose I need to read the book.
The 1st amendment IS an arms control agreement. That's the problem!
People predictably lose interest in arms control agreements under two circumstances:
When complete defeat threatens.
And when complete victory seems attainable.
Arms control agreements are most appealing when nobody knows who's going to win, so maintaining the status quo seems better than risking complete defeat.
At the moment, the left almost totally dominates media outlets and academia, as well as the bureaucracy. If anybody is going to do any censoring, it's them. They see the prospect final victory, so where is the appeal of an arms control agreement that just delays that victory?
And the right, seeing the situation the same, will grasp at any weapon it can to stave off final defeat.
So the appeal of freedom of speech is at a nadir.
We have vastly more freedom of speech in the past 50 years we've had any time previously in America.
Doesn't mean we should stop hustling, but it does mean your doomerism is delusional.
And don't think I didn't notice you letting the right off the hook. As you always do.
We have vastly more freedom of speech to say things the mainstream finds objectionable, certainly.
It is very much more the case today that you can get in trouble for mainstream speech, like calling a guy "him". Especially in academia, expressing conventional right-wing positions can be very dangerous.
No, the 1A doesn't mean anyone has to play with you if they think you're being an asshole.
C'mon.
The First Amendment means that you have to keep talking to that weirdo at the cocktail party.
Right?
That has always been the case. The "trouble" you get into for "mainstream" speech is mainly social disapproval from people whose good opinion Brett doesn't care about.
Agreed.
That said, I have previously stated, and will continue to say, that while I think that the rhetoric of Brett, et al., is way off base, and that it ignores the very real threats to the FA from the right ...
I am concerned that FA principles are no longer seen as sacrosanct by a growing number of younger people. Obviously not to the extent that it is being constantly prattled on about, but as a strong FA absolutist, it is something that I find worrying.
"That said, I have previously stated, and will continue to say, that while I think that the rhetoric of Brett, et al., is way off base, and that it ignores the very real threats to the FA from the right …"
"And the right, seeing the situation the same, will grasp at any weapon it can to stave off final defeat."; Is this an expression of doubt that there is any threat to the 1st amendment from the right?
What I'm saying above is that freedom of speech is most secure when the opposing factions in a society are roughly equal in power, so that they both have the hope of prevailing by persuasion, and the fear of being subject to censorship.
But let the balance of power shift too far in one direction, and the side on the top doesn't fear censorship, while the side on the bottom doesn't want to risk the loss of what it still has. And BOTH sides start to abandon free speech.
Now, granted, the threat from the side in power is more immediate, but that lack of support from the side out of power isn't helpful.
The right and left are approximately equal in power, as can be seen by our political swings since WW2.
It's just that the right is full of truly comfortably and free people whining about being oppressed nonstop whenever they see any change at all.
The right and left are approximately equal in power when it comes to the elected branches. They are not remotely equal in power when it comes to dominance in the bureaucracy, or academia, or the media, or IT companies...
That last is particularly important, because most censorship today is performed by internet platforms, not government employees.
Dominance in academia, sure. Though I’m not so sure about pre undergrad.
Beyond that, it’s just you being you.
Yeah, like the N.Y. Community Education Council. I totally don't value their good opinion. But I'm pretty sure they're not running a cocktail party.
"No, the 1A doesn’t mean anyone has to play with you if they think you’re being an asshole."
Does it mean that the government can punish you for wearing a t-shirt that says "There are two genders"?
So much for arms control, I guess.
The hell we do.
"The best historical evidence suggests that the founding generation had a much more limited understanding of freedom of speech, and that the general conception of neutrality, signaled by Jackson, emerged pretty recently."
And that's okay. Law develops over time.
The idea that originalism is the only legitimate approach to applying the Constitution is one of the most successful con jobs. I grant "originalist" is such a flexible concept (see, e.g., Prof. Eric Segall's book ... not to be confused with the "Love Story" author).
And the attraction is shown by liberals pointing to favorite "proper" interpretations of original understanding.
The only thing that's more of a con job is living constitutionalism. You think people haven't noticed that living constitutionalists never say that the meaning of the Constitution has evolved in a direction they don't like?