The Volokh Conspiracy
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Is Mike Luttig A "Prominent Conservative"?
That may have been true about two decades ago, but conservative is as conservative does.
The front page of CNN.com blares the headline, "Prominent conservative endorses Harris, calls Trump a threat to democracy." Below the photograph of Mike Luttig is the caption, "It'll be the first time the retired federal judge, a veteran of two GOP administrations, has voted for a Democrat."
Is Mike Luttig "prominent"? And is he still a conservative? At one point, he was unquestionably both. The former Wunderkind held senior posts in DOJ and was appointed to the Fourth Circuit before most lawyers make partner. He was at the tip-top of the Supreme Court short list, but President George W. Bush passed over him to select John Roberts and Samuel Alito. In 2006, Luttig retired from the Fourth Circuit and became general counsel of Boeing. After that point, he fell off the map. I had completely forgotten about him. I had never seen him at any Federalist Society event. He did not offer any public advocacy. He said nothing about the leading issues facing the conservative legal movement. He was a non-entity.
But then January 6 happened. And the Luttig hagiography emerged. Greg Jacob, Mike Pence's counsel, relates that Luttig had no conversations with Pence prior to January 6. Jacob simply cited some of Luttig's tweets in his already-completed letter. That's it! Yet, somehow, Luttig is commonly viewed as Pence's close advisor, and a person who helped save the Republic. Never happened.
Since January 6, I cannot think of a single "conservative" position that Luttig has taken on anything. He has filed amicus briefs in several Supreme Court cases, always on the liberal side of the issue. As best as I can recall, he said nothing favorable about Dobbs, perhaps the crowning achievement of the conservative legal movement. Most recently, he has said nothing at all about Senator Schumer's nuclear jurisdiction stripping bill. He has organized a new organization that is meant to be a counter to the Federalist Society. All of his pro-democracy advocacy may as well be an in-kind donation to the Kamala Harris campaign. Formally endorsing Harris was a foregone conclusion. By what measure can Luttig still claim to be a conservative?
David French also recently endorsed Kamala Harris (which I flagged here). He offered this self-reflection:
I'm often asked by Trump voters if I'm "still conservative," and I respond that I can't vote for Trump precisely because I am conservative. I loathe sex abuse, pornography and adultery. Trump has brought those vices into the mainstream of the Republican Party. I want to cultivate a culture that values human life from conception through natural death. Yet America became more brutal and violent during Trump's term. I want to defend liberal democracy from authoritarian aggression, yet Trump would abandon our allies and risk our most precious alliances.
The only real hope for restoring a conservatism that values integrity, demonstrates real compassion and defends our foundational constitutional principles isn't to try to make the best of Trump, a man who values only himself. If he wins again, it will validate his cruelty and his ideological transformation of the Republican Party. If Harris wins, the West will still stand against Vladimir Putin, and conservative Americans will have a chance to build something decent from the ruins of a party that was once a force for genuine good in American life.
French, Luttig, and others have joined the august company of people like John Paul Stevens and David Souter, who insist that they never moved to the left, but the conservative party moved too far to the right. Tell me about it. To paraphrase Rahimi, legal conservatism is not trapped in amber. To paraphrase Forest Gump, conservative is as conservative does. As I wrote last year, "there should be a statute of limitations for calling a person a legal conservative."
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TL;DR: Luttig didn't agree with the (anti-governance) J6 riot, didn't agree with the (anti-individual-liberty) Dobbs decision, and has the temerity to be for democratic norms. Throw him out of the party.
Well, you got the "didn't read" part of TL;DR right. Pretty clear that you didn't read the Dobbs decision and not clear that you bothered to read the article above either.
There is no reading of Dobbs that can be reconciled with conservative principles of individual liberty UNLESS ones also adds Christian dogma about unborn fetuses to make it a competition of liberties.
Dobbs merely restored constitutional law. It took no stand on issues of Christian dogma. It was consistent with conservative principles of constitutional government.
Legal/judicial conservatism is different from political conservatism, though there is some overlap.
Dobbs was the quintessential culmination of judicial conservatism and is currently the high point for decades of work of organizations like the Federalist Society. It took down the bête noire of many a conservative legal scholar.
As an aside, what makes the reaction to Dobbs so humorous is that many people on the left simple even conceive of the difference between judicial conservatism and political conservatism. They think that conservatives are just like them: judicial theory flows from political will, so you might as well put Dem policy-makers into robes so they come to the politically correct result legally.
Actually, abortion is a political issue, and the judicial project to overturn abortion rights was a political project.
The policy consequences of this decision were always front and center. The political consequences were less so, but are now quite evident.
I'm no judicial realist, but don't pretend that partisan judicial projects like the Federalist Society are not political as hell.
You are claiming that John Ely, who wrote that Roe v. Wade was not merely bad Constitutional law, it wasn't even trying to be Constitutional law, was a conservative partisan? LOL.
Claiming Dobbs merely restored constitutional law is idiotic.
Roger, you might seem more such credible if you acknowledged the core issue: The Dobbs decision was primarily about a single 100% religion-based argument—determining if and exactly when the supernatural soul attaches to the natural (physical) human body.
There would be no Alito-written Dobbs decision were it not for an absolute religious faith—that is, belief without evidence—in the non-corporeal soul.
Without that faith in the unverifiable, unfalsifiable proposition of the human soul’s existence, abortion choice would have the same cultural status as the choice of a woman carrying the cancer-causing BRAC1 or BRAC2 genes to have a prophylactic double mastectomy. Simply out, there would be no controversy requiring adjudication.
He doesn't care about J6, and the Dobbs is actually pro-liberty (killing babies is not liberty, but allow them to exercise their right to life is).
So yes, throw him out of the party.
Blastocysts aren't babies.
Some species really do eat their babies, like you think Clinton does. Maybe we'll get as crazy as you with your forced pregnancies and start advocating to legalize infant sandwiches & pizza, and then we can compromise on a sane middle-ground like Row v Wade.
A guaranteed question for the next Republican SCOTUS nominee: How would you define "baby"?
Given that Trump has the very real possibility of sinking not just himself but the entire Republican Party, I would say the true conservatives are the ones doing everything in their power to stop him. However disastrous conservatives may view the prospect of a Harris presidency, another Trump presidency would harm them far more.
Your faux concern is noted.
Did I say I was concerned?
No it wouldn't. I can understand not voting for Trump because he's not a conservative, but not true conservative can vote for Harris, since she is way worse.
A conservative who agrees with our American system and wants its institutions to continue.
Which is the small-c conservative position in opposition to progressivism.
The person who plans to do bad things via the institutions, and within their limits
over
The person who has open contempt for our system and its institutions, and who is making plans to wreck whatever institutions get in the way of his whims.
What Sarcastr0 said.
I get Patrick's point that from a conservative perspective, a Harris administration would not be a day at the beach and should be avoided if possible. However, that is not the choice in a vacuum. The binary choice is Harris or Trump. Trump is poised to wreck conservatism, to say nothing of our institutions, for years to come. If you're a conservative, the long game is to hold your nose and support Harris. If you're a short sighted conservative, vote for Trump and see where it gets you.
Forgive me, but when did Prof. Blackman become the arbiter of "who is a conservative"?
One might argue that Dobbs is an anticonservative opinion, because conservatives like consistency in the law. Given that Roe v. Wade was on the books for 50 years, perhaps the conservative view would be to keep it on the books.
Perhaps Prof. Blackman's definition of "conservative" seems to require one to be a reactionary (the polar opposite of a revolutionary). I wonder if he thinks ex-President Trump is the model conservative, but I would guess not. His views on some subjects are about as anti-conservative as one could get.
Also, would a conservative not be one who would want more power in Article I institutions, rather than Article II or Article III institutions? That definitely is not Prof. Blackman.
Who made you the gatekeeper of who can and who can't describe other people's political beliefs?
Perhaps the Scotsman of No True Scotsman fame?
Or whoever named the non-sequitur, as in “can’t describe” ≠ “become the arbiter.”
Indeed. Blackman does not claim to be an arbiter.
He doesn't? This makes me think he does so claim: "By what measure can Luttig still claim to be a conservative?"
Certainly, CNN is no impartial arbiter.
But mostly, who actually cares?
No one, anymore = who really cares
It is all curated fake news, anyway.
So you claim all of CNN is curated fake news. Is that right?
Blackman cares, deeply. MAGAs care.
The issues for them are existential. They are struggling on a precipice. Their all-tribalism-all-the-time model will either seize from Republicans the title of Custodian-of-Conservatism, or MAGA's lunge to redefine as conservative their reactionary radicalism will tumble into the abyss, along with its off-balance acolytes.
The nation's future features either Republicans or MAGAs. They will not both survive.
Luttig is an ardent supporter of gun control. That means he is not a conservative. Period.
Maybe not now, but back in the day, Richard Nixon and Augusto Pinochet supported gun control
Roe is the perfect example of something that was long-term SCOTUS precedent, but never settled law - bitterly contested for its entire existence.
It's only the people that can actually settle constitutional disputes.
So your view is that Dobbs settled nothing, and the dispute remains as hotly contested as ever? Sounds accurate.
Not only that, but it appears to be a sort of homeostatic contest. Whichever party gains a lead encounters headwinds which increase in proportion to the size of the lead.
Dobbs wasn’t an anti-conservative decision because it got rid of Roe which was such a mess even RBG couldn’t defend it.
Ruth Bader Ginsburg's Warning About Roe v. Wade Came True
https://www.newsweek.com/ruth-bader-ginsburg-roe-wade-abortion-scotus-1702948
“In a much-quoted lecture she gave at New York University in 1992, Ginsburg noted how Roe was an example of how "Doctrinal limbs too swiftly shaped...may prove unstable."”
I’m a conservative libertarian that doesn’t think government has a role in the abortion decision, including funding and health care mandates, but Roe just was judicial legislation, and had to go. There are no trimesters in the constitution.
Of course, Ginsberg was criticizing the opinion as written, not the finding in Roe.
Because don't be ridiculous.
If you don't like finding any rights that weren't around in the 1800s, you're not very good at Constitutional jurisprudence or libertarianism.
Kazinski — To me, Roe looked more like a bulwark against judicial legislation. Given incessant legal demands, and legislative demands, from the anti-Roe faction, I am surprised that anyone would think otherwise.
In short, anti-Roe looks statist; pro-Roe looks individualist. Which party is demanding that the law step in, and which party is demanding that the law keep hands off?
The real question here is whether Josh Blackman is still a conservative, especially as he keeps entrenching himself in the MAGA dungheap. Does he think the tender stylings of Donald John Trump are the pinnacle of conservatism, as so many MAGAs do?
The real question here is whether Josh Blackman is still a conservative
In can't be a "real question" unless someone, for some reason, cares.
Indeed! Next time, Wade should take his irrelevant observation to the comments appearing under an article authored by Prof. Blackman.
260+ comments later yes people care.
And yes Josh is.
I'll never understand the silly hate for him.
I think whether Josh is conservative depends on one's view of conservatism. Is it a philosophy? A lens to view and evaluate things? Is it outcome-based? Josh has said in the past that his originalism is based on whether it gets him to his political goals. Does that mean he's an originalist?
"Josh has said in the past that his originalism is based on whether it gets him to his political goals. Does that mean he’s an originalist?"
No, it means he is what is obvious from nearly all his posts: He is a political hack masquerading as a legal scholar. He did the Calebresi without the excuse of old age or some sudden mental decline. He's just always been a political striver with no guiding principles other than obtaining power, particularly by sucking up to whoever might advance his career.
Admitting you just adhere to originalism to obtain your political ends is just being the caricature of "living constitutional" jurists/scholars, only with different policy goals.
It doesn't seem that it is possible for a "conservative" to critique maga-transformed present-day "conservatism" and still remain a "conservative". Unless you later pull a J.D. Vance and/or Nikki Haley style turnaround, confess your sins, and re-kiss the ring of the celebrity/entertainer/figurehead leader. Loyalty is the only test. Blackman could have addressed Luttig's arguments, but it is so much easier to question his loyalty, or write him off as washed-up, out of practice, or supporting the enemy.
Luttig has no arguments, except to keep saying that there was no peaceful transfer of power in 2021, and that Trump is wrong to complain about the election.
There was in fact a peaceful transfer of power in 2021, and the 2020 election did have many irregularities.
Luttig concedes that Trump may be superior to Harris on all other issues! He just somehow thinks a vote for Harris is a vote for democracy, even though Harris never even got any voter-elected delegates.
Trump did a helluva lot more then not complain. And, thanks for the Sideshow Bob defense of blocking the peaceful transfer of power.
Luttig is primarily concerned with Trump expressing his election opinions. Luttig wrote: "Because of the former president’s continued, knowingly false claims that he won the 2020 election, millions of Americans no longer have faith and confidence in our national elections, and many never will again."
Many will not have confidence, unless we fix our election procedures.
Your quote indicates Luttig believes Trump is not expressing an opinion, but instead is knowingly lying.
No, it indicates Luttig is misrepresenting Trump's opinion. Luttig's rant is long enough that he could quote Trump and prove him wrong, if he could. No, Luttig just claims that Trump knows that he is lying.
Luttig is giving Trump credit for not being delusional. Either Trump is lying (and that's not conservative in and of itself) or he delusionally believes he won and his attempts to steal the election are nonetheless not conservative.
Trump correctly observes that there were many election irregularities and unverified votes. If Luttig does not know this, then he is uninformed.
What utter BS. There were nowhere near enough irregularties or unverified votes to change the outcome of any state.
Right, those 3AM dumps that flipped key states from Trump to Biden weren't irregular!
They weren't something that actually happened!
That is neither the extent of Trump's claims nor an accurate rendition of the substance of Trump's claims.
"Just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the R. Congressmen.”
This is highly suggestive that Trump knew. We also know he was repeatedly told, including by his hand-picked AG Barr, that there was no fraud or irregularities to call into question the result. Trump either is insane or he knows the "stolen election" claim is utter BS.
In either case, he is utterly unqualified to hold any federal office, much less the highest one in the United States. Your defense of him, Roger R, is pathetic. I believe you are smart enough to know better, so it must be a character issue.
Roger S: "There was in fact a peaceful transfer of power in 2021..."
Roger, didn't Ashley Babbitt, along with 4 innocent citizens, including 2 LEOs, die in connection with the 2021 transfer of power you call "peaceful"? (Do you believe along with Kyrie Irving that the Earth is flat?)
It was perfectly legitimate for conservatives to have grave doubts about whether Trump would actually govern as a conservative in 2016. An erratic former democrat is hard to develop trust for.
And he is still a very imperfect leader of the conservative movement.
But there really can’t be a rational debate that Kamala Harris would govern more conservatively than Donald Trump. It’s worse than silly, it’s weird.
I actually even think to an extent that it was the Democrats that forged Trump into a reasonably reliable conservative, by hounding him so relentlessly his first 2 years in office.
It is rational to believe Harris would not be an authortarian who attempts to steal elections, blocks the peaceful transfer of power or kowtows to tyrants like Putin. It is also rational to believe those are conservative values that take precedence over other conservative values that Harris does not embrace.
Harris is already supporting using the US DoJ for the lawfare against her political opponent.
Kazinski — The rational argument is that Harris is conservative insofar as she continues as an institutionalist. It is a rational argument with considerable heft.
Trump could not be more-forthrightly anti-institutionalist. With the possible exception of bomb-throwing anarchists a century and more ago, Trump is the most anti-institutionalist public figure this nation has ever seen. You would have to invent an oxymoronic new political category—a conservative nihilist—to associate Trump in any way with conservatism.
"I actually even think to an extent that it was the Democrats that forged Trump into a reasonably reliable conservative, by hounding him so relentlessly his first 2 years in office."
Is anything ever Trump's fault among you cult members?
If you all would just let Trump do crazy shit, he wouldn't have done so much conservative shit. Don't hound him or he'll use the Office of the President to punish you! FFS, Kazinski.
No shit, Sherlock. Coming down hard on those who try to steal an election and block the peaceful transfer of power does not strip you of being a conservative.
Good point. Fabricating the Russian collusion story, violent rioting during the 2017 inauguration, colluding with the media to bury media stories like Hunter Biden's laptop, engaging in lawfare to win an election by putting your political opponents in prison is indeed, not conservatism.
If true, of course. But, you might be aware much of what you claim to be true others think is not true.
Hunter Biden's laptop is true. It exists. Problem is, to make it politically relevant you have to lie about what is in it.
To make it NOT politically relevant, YOU have to lie about what's in it.
I mean, Biden's out of the race, so it wouldn't be politically relevant if it had proof that Biden was a Manchurian candidate. But even when he was in the race, there was nothing in there of any interest.
Trump’s own appointee appointed Mueller. Lolololololololol!!!
Well spotted! But of course, Hillary & Co. never claimed to be "conservatives".
Kind of lost the plot, haven't you? What has Luttig got to do with any of those topics?
Attempted gatekeeping from below only serves to show one’s true colors.
Plenty of anti-Trump anti J-6 folks around here who would call themselves conservative, you gonna come at them? Prof. Volokh, or Post, or Somin, or Adler.
Something something profiles in courage.
I'm pretty sure Prof. Somin would not "call [himself] conservative." (With good reason, of course.)
As usual, you are wrong.
Old, white, male, born and raised in rural Idaho, career enlisted military (SMSgt (ret) USAF), retired from a second career in IT Security, I’m by temperament a natural conservative. As such, I judge conservatives by their belief in the importance of institutionalism; communitarianism surviving individuals; delayed gratification; and exhibiting humility about what we do not—and perhaps cannot—know.
Had Republicans not abandoned those principles long ago, I would likely still be one. So, instead, I’m an Independent who, when possible, votes for thoughtful, rational local Republicans (like in 2020, my own state’s Secretary of State, who ensured the accessibility and security of our 100% mail voting system against Trumpist attacks).
Regretfully, however, I’ve been unable to vote for a national Republican since GHW Bush’s reelection attempt. The three primary, amply demonstrated reasons for that are:
1) Nixon’s 1968 Southern Strategy through Reagan’s 1980 Neshoba County, Mississippi campaign speech signaling GoP acceptance of; growing to 1980’s-2000’s full pursuit of; and finally expansion to their current absolute dependence on (and R leadership’s resultant catering to) not just racist Southern Democrats, but a racist, xenophobic, Nationalist Conservatism base.
2) A demonstrated and increasing rejection of science-based/evidence-based decision-making.
3) An unfortunate, accelerating attraction to autocratic authoritarians, especially theocrats.
None of these are based on conservative principles. For decades, all have been debasing and corrupting American society’s culture and governance. Amplified by the last few years’ Trumpism, the result has been the devolution of Republicans into today’s purely populist cultural movement, motivated mostly by emotion-driven resentment, envy, greed, and rage.
I long for the return of a thoughtful, rational conservative party—hopefully, within my lifetime—but it will definitely not be the MAGAnistan that Prof. Blackman and his supporters so often and so ably exemplify here.
So, you're the sort of natural conservative who just naturally echoes long standing Democratic talking points, you're saying?
Unlike you, he's still able to recognize when the Democrats say something true. It does happen.
Exactly
"Nixon’s 1968 Southern Strategy through Reagan’s 1980 Neshoba County, Mississippi campaign speech" was when he claims to be a conservative, yet its a reason he is no longer.
It's a long enough comment I don't expect you to read the whole thing, but you'd seem more credible if you at least read the part you think you're replying to.
I remain conservative by temperament (helpfully defining that for you in the first paragraph) and voted mostly R from 1972 (the first year 18-year-olds could vote for President) through about the mid-80's. As I learned more about American history (rural Idaho schools didn't do a great job at that) and watched the GOP in action, however, what I did not remain was Republican.
And because I retain fundamental disagreements with both parties, have never been a Democrat either—since 1975, my registration has always been Unaffiliated in states with that option. The only times I've registered with a political party was to vote in a meaningful primary against an extremist of either party, then immediately switched back. Glad to live in Washington now, with no registration by party, and no partisan primaries.
By the way, for those who could not make it through the first paragraph, one cannot believe in the importance of institutionalism; communitarianism surviving individuals; delayed gratification; and exhibiting humility about what we do not—and perhaps cannot—know, while remaining a supporter of Donald Trump.
I'm neither a Republican nor a conservative, but I understand what you're saying here. The idea is to hew to a reasonably coherent set of principles, not to the dictates of personalities.
The present Republican Party is doing the latter, embracing Trump as a charismatic (in the Max Weber sense) leader, and principles be damned. Does it accord with Republican principles to ban Muslims from the United States, or to build a wall, or to do away with civil service? Or to terminate "all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution"?
Weber theorized that charismatic leaders were crucial for the transition from traditional authority (god -> king -> citizenry) to rational-legal authority ([republican] democracy and, yes, bureaucracy). The fear that Trump strikes into principled people on both sides of the political divide is that he represents a charismatic trend going in the *opposite* direction; something that I don't think that Weber expected.
Thus, folks like Luttig and French (and others) are not embracing the Democratic Party; they understand that a party led by a charismatic has no future beyond the charismatic's lifetime. They see (correctly, in my estimation) Trump as a cancer feeding on the party.
"Does it accord with Republican principles to ban Muslims from the United States"
It, of course, did not happen nor was even remotely proposed. But, please, go on.
"or to build a wall, or to do away with civil service?"
Absolutely should be. No wall insures that the moment a Democrat decides to not enforce immigration law, then the flood gates open and the problems caused by it arise.
And when you see the bureaucracy working AGAINST the executive, then yes, do away with it. It has served to make government even more corrupt but with nobody responsible for anything.
"Thus, folks like Luttig and French (and others) are not embracing the Democratic Party"
Just siding with the Dems on every issue humanly possible, so I am sure that is different, somehow.
Luttig helped implement DEI at Boeing where it led to crashes. So now he supports the DEI candidate.
Making wild assumptions about what a GC does so you can be awful and racist.
Way to go.
Purple Martin — Good comments all. And more legitimately Idahoan than most folks here would expect. What county in Idaho, by the way?
Parents were born in Canyon County when it was truly rural. I was born in Lewiston (Nez Perce County), raised mostly in the Magic Valley/Jerome County (graduated from Jerome High School). Of course that was back when, state-wide, Idaho could still elect people like Cecil Andrus and Frank Church.
Brett tries to claim the GOP has a policy platform and ideals, but in the end he come back to the antilib well over and over.
Interestingly George Wallace pulled an Arafat in 1976 saying one thing at the DNC and then in Alabama speaking at a Ford rally with Bear Bryant…but southerners still didn’t trust Ford because of his past support for civil rights legislation.
Here's the transcript of Ronald Reagan's 1980 Neshoba County Fair speech as well as a link to the audio recording. Please share with us which part of it is catering to "racist Southern Democrats" or a "racist, xenophobic, Nationalist Conservatism base."
Continuing Nixon's Southern strategy, the phrase "states' rights", which was the name of Strom Thurmond's segregationist party in the 1948 presidential election, and which was the basis for George Wallace's 1968 campaign in favor of racial segregation. Those are the only presidential candidates not from either major party to win electoral votes since La Follette in 1924.
Two things primarily. The first, as Magister already noted, was Reagan’s demonstration of an actor’s skill in code-switching before anyone had come up with that name. The theme of Reagan’s States Rights speech had long been fully understood by his Southern audience as code for the good old days of segregation and Jim Crow.
Second…
Glad to help you with that. Any other questions?
So, you advocate a GOP that continues conserving absolutely nothing?
Ummm, No? Is that a trick question?
My point was that I do not advocate and will not support a Trumpist GOP that goes farther in conserving absolutely nothing than the 20th Century GOP ever dreamed of.
Uh huh, Support the candidate who will impose society destroying communist price controls so the republicans can rebuild the party, or something, with a little not too subtle Russian collusion hoax silliness thrown in as a chaser. It would be simple to dismiss these establishment clowns as simply suffering from TDS but disgraces like this suggest something more is at play. This clown believes he will profit in some way if President Trump loses. (Wonder if Kamala bought him off too along with her social media influencers? But none of them can say anything because of the NDAs, someone call that fat slob Bragg). But maybe the best response to his endorsement is, no one knows who this clown is and no one gives a shit anyway.
At some point this thing really needs to be rebooted.
Weird and creepy obsession you have with me. You need a new crush Neioporon.
Ah, the "rebooted" means that must have been Riva? After one final chance a few weeks ago, I finally added him to my short list of blocked wastes of pixels. I clear that every few months...perhaps he'll have developed something new by then.
Or, did the bot provide anything beyond (just a sec...ah, here it is) "...rote repetition of the current day’s talking points from the fringe ultra-right echosphere, typically followed by simplistic gratuitous insult?" If so, perhaps I'll check in sooner than that.
Another one? (Or maybe just an alias ?) Whatever. Apparently I trigger you ladies. You girls must be particularly afraid of my comments to target me like this. And since walls do work, your ability to make asses of yourselves at the dnc convention seems to behave been significantly curtailed so I guess you have some extra free time.
What kind of dipshit uses calling people women as an insult?
Now you’re getting hysterical. But since you apparently know, you should probably write a comment or two defining what a women is to help out your deranged little democrat friends. They’ve even renamed the ladies restrooms at the DNC convention as “gender neutral restrooms.” Not the men’s though, because I guess not a lot of ladies (even democrat ladies) like to sneak into men’s restrooms. Oh and you might want to advise Walz on those tampons too.
A temper tantrum worthy of Trump himself from Blackman.
“I loathe sex abuse, pornography and adultery. Trump has brought those vices into the mainstream of the Republican Party. I want to cultivate a culture that values human life from conception through natural death. Yet America became more brutal and violent during Trump’s term.”
So he doesn’t care that Harris got her start by performing fellatio on a married man, nor that her husband’s first marriage broke up when he banged the nanny and apparently paid her to abort. He doesn’t care that Harris would appoint judges and justices who would weaken protections for religious liberty and might even reinstate Roe. He doesn’t care if Thomas dies on the bench and is replaced by some lockstep lefty who does not give a fig about originalism or the rule of law. He doesn’t care if an exhausted Samuel Alito just wants to retire and be replaced by an ideological equal.
The whole thing is so performative. “If I mouth the right shibboleths about Trump, I can be accepted as a Real Intellectual and a True Conservative.”
There might be actual arguments for conservatives to vote against Trump; this is not one of them.
So you don't support Harris, in part, because her husband had an affair.
Brother, have I got some bad news to share with you.
1. I'm a woman.
2. I never said that was why I didn't support Kamala. I am simply pointing out the comical hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy? Has Harris at one point accused Melania of having an affair? Because that's about the only way I can see squaring your bizarre accusation.
Harris personally blew Brown to get jobs she had zero qualifications for and that got her the start of her political career.
I do not think being a LITERAL whore in addition to a figurative whore really fits into conservative beliefs...but YMMV.
Harris personally blew Brown to get jobs she had zero qualifications for
...
LITERAL whore
See, unless the GOP can put a lid on made up sexist shit like this, they've got quite the electoral headwind to deal with.
Where would you even hear about if or how their relationship included oral? Or did you add that in because it's the most whorish to your puritan mind?
How do you know?
False.
Also False.
And false yet again.
Pretty impressive: one sentence, three lies and one thing you just made up.
Women can be brothers.
There are three assertions related to Harris in that sentence. The first ("she got her start") is false, the second is prurient speculation ("fellatio"), and the third is dishonest ("married man"). (Brown had been separated from his wife for a decade at the time.)
Her… husband? Years before he met her? What does that have to do with anything? Also, not the nanny. (It doesn't really matter who it was, but why include facts if you're going to get them wrong?)
Actually, married is married, and no one disputes the fellatio.
And way to miss the point: Kamala and her husband are not bastions of virtue, either.
Not sure what you mean by "no one disputes the fellatio." Who with knowledge exactly is making the claim, and who would be in a position to confirm or dispute it? It would hardly be surprising if two people who dated for a multi-year period engaged in oral sex, but as far as I can tell the only people actually asserting it as fact are people trying to make their relationship sound somehow sleazier.
No, married isn't married; there's married, and then there's married. And Harris's husband isn't running for anything, so it's hard to see why his virtue is relevant to the discussion.
It's always - all of it - about sex with these people, David. Abortion (people having pleasure for pleasure's sake). Men having sex with men. Trans changing their sex. Miscegenation. Fanni's relationship. Kamala's sex life. Pornography. Slut shaming. Breast feeding. It's endless and always boils down to sex. The incredible inability to deal with human sexuality that powers the right to this day.
You know, the OP did quote the French column.
Who, uh, brought up sex first?
People who vote Democrat because they feel that Trump brought vices into the GOP should take a good hard look at the party of Bill Clinton.
Pretty sure Lustig wasn’t a Clinton fan either.
Maybe they just prefer the real thing?
Harris got her start by performing fellatio on a married man,
I'm so tired of this shit about a 30-year-old relationship. Brown helped a lot of SF politicians in their careers. So he helped his girlfriend too.
He appointed her to two state commissions. Despite the ridiculous line being pushed by the GOP, and endorsed by theobromophile, these jobs did not put her in the express lane to the Vice-Presidency.
All this concern about morality coming from Trump cultists would be hilarious, if it weren't aimed at putting a complete scumbag in back in the White House.
Most recently, he has said nothing at all about Senator Schumer's nuclear jurisdiction stripping bill.
“I support a constitutional amendment that would repudiate the Supreme Court’s faithless decision in Trump v. United States and restore the animating principle of our Nation and of our Constitution that no man is above the law, least of all the President of the United States."
I don't see any similar support for Schumer's message bill. If could be done by statute, unclear why he would support an amendment.
Not supporting the overturning of a 50-year precedent or joining several conservative jurists who are wary at best about the breadth of Heller doesn't quite make him Stevens or Souter. Silly boy.
Several decades back, I posted the definition of conservative (value in established tradition, slow to change) vs. liberal (larger breaks with the past needed). A categorizer then listed as “conservative” everything the GOP did, and everything the Democrats did as “liberal”, thus negating the labels as anything but random letters, as both contained contradictions.
So is Trump conservative because he says he is? Because that’s what GOP supporters imagine as so because they're supposed to?
Running from a fight in Europe is not conservative. Blocking immigration to save union jobs is actually a liberal position favored by Bernie and Cesar Chavez.
You left conservatism.
That was only a useful definition so long as the right was defending territory it still held. Once you've lost a lot of territory, you're no longer trying to maintain the status quo, you're trying to change it, or functionally you've switched sides.
Yes, I summarized that as "random string of letters." Much sound and fury, signifying nothing (conservative, anyway.)
He punches the hated followers of false gods hard, though.
Notably, Brett offers no principled definition of "conservative." It's just "whatever Trump says." Which itself is simply "whatever we think'll piss off Democrats the most."
I'm saying the very concept of "conservatism" only makes sense in a defensive stance. And it's too late for a defensive stance, which is why, yes, the right is abandoning conservatism defined as defending the status quo: Because the status quo on too many issues is that the right has lost, and defending a status quo where you've lost is switching sides.
That's the only principled definition of "conservative" you can think of?
Wow, the Republican party is well and truly lost.
No, that's not a definition of conservatism, it's an explanation for why "conservatism" is losing relevance.
In a crude way, Luttig IS a "conservative", because his actions would conserve Democratic party victories. While Trump is attempting to achieve Republican victories.
Conservatism is a defensive stance, and if, as I keep saying, if after your side has lost you keep defending, you've switched sides.
No; he's attempting to achieve Trump victories.
Has any party ever lasted long with their platform being ‘a defensive stance?’
You got your strong personality to hold it together for now (more using you for himself, but he makes you feel successful), but good luck holding that vapor together once he’s out.
In a crude way, Luttig IS a “conservative”, because his actions would conserve Democratic party victories. While Trump is attempting to achieve Republican victories.
Brett, this is so sad in a pathetic way. Your entire lens on life is partisan. You can't even contemplate the existence of a principle that's not rooted in Democrat vs Republican.
I suggest turning off Fox News and Volokh (which used to include non-partisan subject matter but no longer) and enrolling in a continuing education Philosophy class.
I'd point out Luttig supported Bush who VASTLY increased welfare and government interference in medicine.
...but Trump was the one who abandoned "Republicanism"
Bush killed the GOP. Trump is trying to clean up the mess.
Bush killed the GOP
MAGA eats all.
Why yes, Brett. I often correct people accusing Trumpists of being reactionary, when the more accurate term is revanchist…
Glad to know you agree. Still, you are never getting back the Jim Crow South (including its male/female power dynamics), or fulling Justice Alito’s desire for governments worldwide to regain authoritarian theocratic territory lost over centuries. In fact, do I recall “We’re not Going Back” as one of the Harris campaign’s slogans?
My own decades-long stretch of national Democratic voting in federal elections corresponds with the R’s’ increasingly putting their revanchist crazies in charge (most obviously starting with Newt Gingrich), while the D’s far more often kept elevating their left-center faction to leadership, keeping their own crazies mostly on the powerless fringe.
Yes, I understand: Through most of WWII, the allies were revanchist. Because the Nazis had already captured extensive territory, and the Allies were attempting to recover it, obviously a bad thing.
What I understand here is that it is utterly mindless to dismiss the desire to recover lost territory as 'revanchist' without evaluating whether recovering the lost territory is a justifiable goal.
And that IS the sort of mindless conservatism left-wingers want, because they want 'conservatives' who will fight to conserve the left's victories, without thinking for a second what they're doing.
Politics is not war. The timeline is different, the methods are different, and the goals are not the same. Call me when Dems sign a treaty of surrender with the GOP.
Both sides use the language of war at times, but you seem to be going whole hog they are the same.
Your whole 'conserve the left's victories' is the hot take of someone utterly unmoored from the intellectual tradition of conservativism.
Thus your purity tests discard Ike, and Nixon, and the Bushes, and McCain, and Romney. And frankly if you admitted it to yourself Reagan.
Your vision is now Trump and destroying American institutions for being leftist (though only you can see it).
The politics of paranoid delusion, tied to someone whose goals are purely for himself.
"And that IS the sort of mindless conservatism left-wingers want, because they want ‘conservatives’ who will fight to conserve the left’s victories, without thinking for a second what they’re doing."
The least self-aware person on this site is always ready and willing to mind-read what his political opponents think and want.
Interesting illustration of part of the problem, which is a mindset that seems inherently unable to consistently differentiate between different things that have at least some surface resemblance.
I’ve used more than my quota of words here, so I won’t go into a full explanation of Brett’s fallacious logic. But it relies on not understanding something many learned from Sesame Street at an early age: One of these things is not like the others…all of these things are not the same.
It takes very little research to discover primary academic examples of revanchism include post-World War One Germany and the rise of Nazism, and the American South after the 1870’s orchestrated collapse of Reconstruction.
Know what it doesn’t include? The Allies in WWII.
The problem for Josh and other Trump supporters is that the list opposing Trump reads like a who-who of conservatives. Mike Luttig, Liz Cheney, David French, and a host of others. The people Blackman criticizes can articulate not only their conservative beliefs but also why they oppose Trump. Conservative In Name Only (CINOs) seem to base their conservative ideas solely on the support of a man, Trump, who himself shows little actual conservative values. Having grown up with real conservatives like William Buckley and George Wills so I think I know a conservative when I see one.
You can oppose Trump without endorsing Harris. Not voting or voting for a third party is a perfectly valid choice if you consider voting an expression of personal philosophy. Voting for Harris, someone who is very progressive and hostile to conservative ideas, is not consistent with being conservative.
If voting is a balancing act about outcomes, then voting for Trump will certainly advance the conservative cause more than voting for Harris. Trump losing is not going to "cure" the GOP of whatever French thinks is ailing it. It wasn't cured after his first loss or the repeated losses of the candidates he endorses. Why would this time be different?
Trump losing is not going to “cure” the GOP of whatever French thinks is ailing it.
It'll certainly do a better job than Trump winning.
If voting is a balancing act about outcomes, then voting for Trump will certainly advance the conservative cause more than voting for Harris.
Over what time frame are you looking at? In the short term, Trump winning would mean an executive branch run by people at least nominally conservative, even if they are really more MAGA faction or Trump loyalists than conservative. It would also mean federal judges that conservatives like being appointed (assuming that they also retake the Senate).
But over the longer term, it would only benefit the conservative cause if Trump’s term in office is successful for the long term benefit of conservative voters. If Trump being elected means benefits to the rich (such as with his promises of cutting their taxes), benefits to the tech overlords that have swung to his side recently, all while leaving middle and working class white Americans worse off because of tariffs that he still thinks Americans won’t pay for, the world becomes more dangerous because he won’t stand in the way of aggressors like Putin, and for all of the talk of drill, drill, drill, oil production won’t go up enough to really drop prices because that would cut into oil company profits. After all, $2 billion of Saudi oil profits are being managed by Jared’s firm now.
Trump losing is not going to “cure” the GOP of whatever French thinks is ailing it. It wasn’t cured after his first loss or the repeated losses of the candidates he endorses. Why would this time be different?
Trump losing didn't "cure" the GOP of Trumpism because almost all of the elected GOP politicians were too cowardly to stick to what they said they believed right after Jan. 6. All of the talk about Trump being responsible for the violence and disgrace of that day fell to the wayside, once it was clear that the Trump faithful weren't repelled by what happened, but instead just saw him as even more of a martyr. Trump's cult of personality just deepened.
"all while leaving middle and working class white Americans worse off"
IDK what "white" has to do with but middle and working class Americans were better off under Trump than Biden.
Only if your measure of "better of" is based on, "Do I have to see lots of Hispanic people?"
I mean, sort of, but not really. We're not talking about the party platforms here; we're talking about an election. Which is zero sum: if Trump wins, Harris loses, and vice versa. (I will bet you your entire life's savings that RFKJ is not going to win. In fact, I'll give you the whole field: RFKJ, Oliver, West, Stein.)
Harris is more conservative than Trump. Oh, not in terms of specific policies, necessarily. But in big ways: she doesn't want to burn down institutions, and Trump does. The biggest being democracy itself.
Trump is the metaphorical disease!
Well, this time feels like it really is the end for him… if he loses.
"Harris is more conservative than Trump."
Seek help.
Keep reading...he has an argument.
As of yet, you don't.
I read it. Its a dumb argument.
But it is an argument and that is more than you have provided.
Traditionally, folks that claim an argument is dumb provide some further explication.
I see you've chosen to go a much lazier rout.
Harris is for democracy? Tell me again how she got the nomination, without any voters voting for her?
Biden dropped out too late for the primary process.
All the voters voted for her, you antisemitic moron. The voters for a nomination are the delegates.
The voters voted for Biden delegates. Then Biden was forced out in a backroom deal. I don't know what was antisemitic about it, except that Josh Shapiro was going to be the VP, but he was dropped because he is Jewish.
Biden was not "forced out" and could not have been "forced out." Biden dropped out. At that point, the delegates were free to support anyone they wanted except Biden. And they settled on Harris, not surprisingly, given that the entire purpose of a vice president is to step in for the president if necessary.
All the press reported that Biden did not want to drop out, but was forced to. If he did not drop out, they were going to use the 25th Amendment to kick him out.
No press reported that. Perhaps you've confused TruthSocial with the press?
Note that we know for a fact that this did not happen, because that's not how the 25th amendment works.
You know he's not actually dead, and that he has in fact (and in person) endorsed Harris, right?
Presumably, your conspiracy theory can account for that, but I'd say you're in a rapidly dwindling minority for sticking with it.
I did not watch the DNC, but the clips of his speech are straight bangers.
The GOP will carp about advanced senility and Biden being forced out, but he basically put both of those to bed for anyone not committed to the nonsense narratives.
Gracefully done and good for him.
He will go down in history well thought of, I think.
Biden repeatedly and emphatically said that he was not dropping out. Then “Nancy made clear that they could do this the easy way or the hard way.”
Yes, Roger. It turns out candidates for President, even incumbents, need the support of their party, their donors, and the voters.
The right trying to turn this into a scandal is some great wild goose chasing.
Though at this point it's looking a bit like laying the foundation for some sour grapes/excuse making if Trump loses.
As far as I know, the way it has worked, since the first delegates to a convention were chosen by statewide popular votes, for pledged delegates to become free to vote for someone else to be the nominee after the first round of voting. That would only become an issue if no one had won a majority of the delegates. And that is why the party brass started making sure that candidates got outsized numbers of delegates relative to their vote share in the early states, and that would increase until it was plurality take all well before the end. That is how Trump got the nomination easily in 2016 with only 45% of the total votes cast in the primaries.
In this case, Biden was simply not an option for any delegate in any round of voting, so they became free to pick whoever they wanted.
No one was clamoring for a "do-over" of the primaries given the impossibility of that happening.
Really, though, no one is really buying that you are the least bit sincere in making that argument. It is only Republicans that have done so, and that is because they are pissed off that they have to run against Harris instead of against someone even older than Trump.
That's how the GOP does it. That's not how the Democratic Party does it; the Democratic Party allocates delegates proportionately throughout the entire primary process.
Also, to say that Biden was forced out is only true if you mean that he was "forced" to face the reality that his debate performance had lost him the confidence of most of his allies that he could win. Which was fully justified, since the one thing that Biden could most not afford to happen in that debate was what did happen.
I can't even think of what plausible things Trump might do from here on out that would cost him Republican support.
Yes, Biden's senility was used as an excuse by the cabal that kicked him, but the real reason was his declining poll numbers. His senility was known for a couple of years, and before all the primary votes.
Luttig's endorsement uses the word "democracy" 26 times. He has a funny idea of democracy, as democracy did not nominate Harris. And good democracies do not allow politicians like Harris and Biden to prosecute their political enemies.
Your mother is probably regretting her opposition to abortion after seeing you disgrace the family name with your stupidity. You literally have this 180° backwards. Only dishonest Trumpkins ever claimed Biden was senile. No "cabal" "kicked" Biden, but the people urging him to drop out did not "use" "senility" as an "excuse." Of course they urged him to drop out because of the polls. There was no secret about that.
The only "senility" is yours.
Your willful blindness in support of a 50 year grifter doesn't speak well of you.
I don't know if "senility" is the correct term, but Biden has definitely exhibited some age-related decline. So has Trump. But unlike Trump, Biden's not also suffering from some weird mental issues which prevent him from accepting reality when it makes him uncomfortable.
Roger, Democracy doesn't mean "everything is decided by a vote of the people", unless you're referring to some kind of commune. By that measure, even the US Constitution is anti-democracy, because it prohibits many otherwise "democratic" laws which would violate the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Harris was chosen by the Democrat Party, under their own rules, which as a political party they are free to draft as they see fit. Republicans didn't even bother holding primaries in every State this year (typical when the party is incumbent), and yet you don't utter a peep about how those voters have been "cheated"...
All good democracies permit--nay, demand--that criminals are prosecuted, regardless of their political positions. Your denial that Trump could have possibly committed the crimes he's been charged with is simply an article of faith among your tribe. Anyone who looks at the evidence objectively would agree that there is arguably enough to indict and try Trump for many different crimes.
I don’t know if “senility” is the correct term, but Biden has definitely exhibited some age-related decline.
No one is denying that. That's why Biden lost the faith of his party after the debate. The senility bit is the right overplaying their hand, as they do.
Roger doesn't do coherence, if you haven't noticed. Conceptual permanence is not his jam - he just takes a narrative that fits the moment and makes him angry at the left, repeats it a lot, and then onto the next narrative for the next moment.
I doubt there's a single human being who lived that long about whom one couldn't say that had he lost a step, physically and mentally, by his late 70s. But Biden is very clearly not "senile" even now, and the people claiming that he was obviously senile several years ago are lying.
Of course, and he did so prior to the debate. But, it did not become apparent how much he had declined to most of us until the debate. Dropping out at that point makes sense and since it was too late in the primary process, the nominee had to be selected by some means other than the voters. In no way is that sequence anti-democratic.
Willful blindness is real.
4 people challenge MAGA received wisdom.
Bumble goes with bare denial with a side of attack.
Really showing how much content there is behind the modern right.
Rationalize replacing Biden with Harris however you want. It was not a vote of the people. Nor is prosecuting Trump. We have an election where one side is putting up a nominee against the vote of the people, and is prosecuting the candidate on the other side. Harris is the most anti-democracy candidate we have ever had.
Candidates are elected by delegates, not 'the people.'
Harris has garnered the support of more of the Democratic polity than Biden did, and more enthusiastically. Both polling and the convention show this.
Roger is wrong both formally and functionally. He's more posting from emotion anyhow so I'm not sure if he's very put out by that fact.
Had Trump been assassinated, a new nominee would have emerged without the vote of the people. No big deal.
Had Trump been assassinated, there would have been multiple candidates trying for the nomination, and public debates. It would not have been decided by a secret cabal in a backroom deal.
There may or may not have been multipple candidates, with or without debates. But, the voters would have no say.
And, what secret backroom deal?
Rationalize replacing Biden with Harris however you want. It was not a vote of the people.
Yes it was. The people voted for her in 2020. That's the whole reason it had to be Harris.
It reads like a who’s who of ‘conservatives’ people on the right haven’t had much use for in many years. The sort of Republicans the shows like Face the Nation used to call in to predictably criticize the GOP from a Republican perspective.
It’s long been clear that a significant faction of institutional ‘conservatives’ were only comfortable with a portion of the conservative agenda, and simply didn’t need to say so as long as the parts they didn’t like weren’t going anywhere.
While Trump has, overall, been pretty good from a conservative perspective, better than either of the Bushes, for instance, let alone dogs like Romney or Dole that the party foisted on its voters, he apparently either hasn’t been great for the parts Luttig likes, or perhaps has been too good for the parts Luttig doesn’t like. Like gun control, or illegal immigration.
It’s a Main Street vs Wall Street Republican fight, IOW, and Wall Street would rather Main Street lose, even if its own agenda has to be on hold for a while.
You don’t seem to be comprehending the complaint against Trump that’s being made by these conservatives. It’s not that he’s too conservative or not conservative enough, or conservative in the wrong ways. It’s that he’s un-American. At some point you have to vote against the traitor candidate, even if he’s the one telling you what you want to hear.
No, I perfectly well understand the complaint against Trump they're articulating. I just kind of doubt it's their real problem with him, because they don't advocate voting third party or sitting the election out, they advocate voting for the Democrat.
Who is enormously worse on basically EVERY issue of interest to Republicans, and not even that much better in terms of personal morality.
A Harris victory, especially if accompanied by a Democratic Congress, will be highly destructive to basically EVERY cause ANY species of actual conservative cares about. You'd probably see some form of Court packing, to reverse all the recent Supreme court victories. Illegal immigration will turn into a positive Niagara, and they might even statutorily naturalize all the existing illegal immigrants just to prevent future deportations.
It's possible we might see the end of competitive elections after they got done 'fortifying' our electoral system against Republicans. This is like complaining that Churchill drinks too damn much, which is why you're enlisting in the SS for the duration.
No, I perfectly well understand the complaint against Trump they’re articulating. I just kind of doubt it’s their real problem with him, because they don’t advocate voting third party or sitting the election out, they advocate voting for the Democrat.
So then... you're just stupid? Obviously if you think Trump is bad for America, including conservative Americans -- which they do -- then the right move is to vote for the person who has a chance of beating him. Haven't you seen Hamilton? The moral of the story is to not be throwin' away your vote.
It’s OK to vote for someone else if you live in CA or WV (I voted for Russ Feingold in 2016 when I lived in CA), but not if you live in PA or MI. But, an endorsement of the only person who can beat Trump is a must no matter where you live.
I voted for Russ Feingold in 2016, but for Senate because I was living in Wisconsin.
Okay, Luttig is lying about his reasons for hating Trump.
Why?
Brett does not just not understand institutionalism, he thinks it's a lie.
Because he tends to think most deviation from his personal and often fringey takes are all done in bad faith.
I'll just repeat (or rephrase) what Randal wrote earlier. You simply can't be that stupid...if you think one candidate is absolutely evil or awful, and that horrific things will happen if that candidate is elected; then OF COURSE you vote in a way that maximizes the chance that he will lose. You don't do half-measures like voting for some 3rd-party candidate. (Exception: If you do happen to live in a 100% certain state like California or Kentucky, then sure--you don't need to vote for Evil Candidate's Dem opposition...you can indeed "waste" your vote by avoiding both of the major parties at the top of the ticket.)
(I assumed that, implicit in Randal's comment, was, "You--the hypothetical voter--happen to live in one of the true 7-8 swing states, or in one of the "probably not swing, but possibly might be, like Florida" states.)
OK, I understand that if you literally thought Trump was the Anti-Christ, evil incarnate, you might prefer losing to a merely finitely evil Harris. I mean, I understand the concept. I just don't understand why anybody who didn't already hate Trump for unrelated reasons, probably partisan or ideological, would plausibly believe that of Trump.
I am tacitly assuming that Luttig doesn't think Trump is evil incarnate, because I don't think Luttig is stupid or insane. Perhaps I'm wrong about that, and he IS stupid and/or insane.
Trump tried to steal an election and block the peaceful transfer of power. And if that is not enough for you, Trump rooted for the rioters for two hours instead of trying to stop the riot.
If my favorite liberal politican pulled that shit, I would turn on them in a heartbeat. I would vote for Ted Cruz over them just to make sure they lost.
Trump tried to steal an election to about the same degree that Gore tried to steal an election. They were both relying on wrongful acts of discretion by people running the process; Trump, members of Congress, Gore, vote counters and the Florida supreme court.
They both failed, Trump gets hell over it, Gore is recalled by Democrats as the guy who really won.
And Trump did absolutely NOTHING to block the peaceful transfer of power. You're just fantasizing that at this point.
I don't LIKE Trump, I'd far rather DeSantis had gotten the nomination. Not enough Republicans agreed with me. But you go with the candidate you have, not the candidate you wish you had, and Harris would be an absolute disaster for the country.
You sure do put in a lot of work apologizing for Trump.
For his convictions
For his indictments
For January 06
For his lack of core principles
For his coarseness
For his historical lack of character
For his attack on our institutions
Some you deny. Some you minimize. Some you just point left.
But it really says a lot where your battlefields are. And they are not about conservative policy.
Gore didn't do a Jan 6. He conceded when he lost his (imminently reasonable) challenge.
Nobody believes your tepid defense of Trump's treason.
He immediately conceded the moment the Supreme court put a definitive end to what he was doing, and not one second sooner. Sure, he didn't do what Trump did. Trump didn't do what Gore did. They both tried pseudo-legal means to subvert the outcome of a close election.
Thinking that Gore and Trump were the same because both filed lawsuits calls to mind the Buckley quote: "That is like saying that the man who pushes a little old lady into the path of a bus is morally equivalent to the man who pushes her out of its path, because they both push little old ladies around."
Gore filed suits based on reasonable legal theories about an election whose outcome was actually in doubt. He won some suits, lost some. And once SCOTUS definitively said no, he immediately conceded, even though at the time there was still legitimate doubt about the actual vote count. (Note that he had previously conceded on election night based on premature media reports that he had lost the election, because only a loon invents a vast conspiracy theory to evade that.)
Trump filed frivolous lawsuits about an election whose outcome was never in doubt; no person with a triple digit IQ thinks that Biden didn't legitimately win the 2020 election. After the courts, including SCOTUS, definitively rejected these absurd attempts, he not only did not concede, but organized a mob to attack the Capitol to try to prevent Biden's election from being certified. And forged documents and tried to pressure state officials into either fabricating votes (as we know from the recorded Georgia phone call) or just throwing out the election results and appointing his electors instead.
Brett has become so anti-institution that he can't tell the difference between using them and trying to wreck them.
Not that he doesn't trust and make use of these same institutions regularly.
It's a bit more subtle than "They both filed lawsuits".
The scheme Gore was using to subvert the election in Florida was relatively straightforward: Recounts typically do nothing to change the percentages in an election, what they usually do is slightly increase the valid vote totals, by resolving marginal ballots that the machine didn't read, but a human could. They do this in basically the same proportions, though.
So, you take an extremely close election. Wait until the end of the challenge period, (So that your opponent has no time to respond in kind.) and then file for hand recounts in four large counties that went heavily Democratic. The vote percentages don't change there, but the larger yield of valid votes makes them a larger percentage of the state vote total, and stands a good chance of swinging the count in Gore's favor, even if Bush actually won, and even if a state-wide recount would show Bush winning.
It was a way of gaming the system to turn the actual loser into a nominal winner, it in no way depended on Gore being the real winner.
As it happened, while the trick got Gore closer to winning, it didn't put him over the line. That's where he started doing things that were genuinely extra-legal: After the challenge period, whether a state-wide recount happens is determined by the Secretary of State, who in this case declared that there wasn't any cause for such a recount. Legally that was the end of it.
Gore got the state supreme court to order a state-wide recount anyway. But, crucially, a state wide recount without uniform counting standards. (The EPC violation the Supreme court found.) This enabled counters in Democratic areas to use systematically more lax counting standards than were prevalent, a way of rigging vote totals. Because the state supreme court had ordered this, it nominally wasn't illegal... Until the federal Supreme court declared it was.
But it was still an attempt to steal an election.
The scheme Gore was using to subvert the election
Refuge in fan fiction, yet again.
Any evidence Gore's lawsuit was in bad faith, hoping for something other than it's pleadings?
Let's accept (but only for the sake of argument) that Gore illegimately gamed the legal system in order to win Florida. It's still nowhere close to being a zillion miles from what Trump did.
That’s where he started doing things that were genuinely extra-legal... Gore got the state supreme court to order a state-wide recount anyway.
What? Your revisionist history isn't even coherent. In what way is filing a lawsuit that Florida's high court agreed with "genuinely extra-legal?" Please get a grip Brett.
Ted Cruz doesn’t believe this. Lindsey Graham doesn’t believe this. Mitch McConnell doesn’t believe this. They all know Trump is human garbage.
Below, you said the clear majority of GOP voters don’t believe it and that is true. They believe Trump is their savior from the establishment and if he says he won, it must be that the establishment stole it from him. And, no amount of evidence can convince them otherwise (this so-called evidence is part of the conspiracy).
So Brett, if you think Trump is the same as Gore and he did nothing to attempt to block the peaceful transfer of power, you are a delusional conspiracy theory nutcase.
And, no amount of evidence can convince them otherwise (this so-called evidence is part of the conspiracy).
I've gotten in more discussions over the "stolen" 2020 election, in person with someone close to me, than I could possibly count. The circular conspiracy thinking is always where it ends up. Why didn't any of the 'good' Republicans in appropriate positions to act on all of the evidence that the election was stolen from Trump end up doing anything meaningful with it? All of that fraud, and no prosecutions other than the normal handful of people?
Well, those Republican AGs, Secretaries of State, and so on must have been compromised! The Trump-appointed judges that ruled against the claims in court, too!
When someone answers a question about the lack of sufficient evidence for their claim of a conspiracy with another conspiracy claim, then there is no point in continuing to argue.
"Ted Cruz doesn’t believe this. Lindsey Graham doesn’t believe this. Mitch McConnell doesn’t believe this. They all know Trump is human garbage."
They all knew he was a threat to their control of the GOP.
Not my point. They all knew he lost and was trying to steal the election because he is human garbage.
Trump tried to steal an election to about the same degree that Gore tried to steal an election.
Your false equivalence here is not worth rebutting. Sarcastr0, Randal, and Josh R gave you far more respect than your argument deserves.
Maybe you should sit and ponder that for a while. To steal from Chesterton, until you understand where the idea comes from, you can't really judge whether the idea is reasonable.
not even that much better in terms of personal morality.
Unbelievable. Just fucking unbelievable. Harris had an affair, decades ago, with a nominally married man.
Trump's entire career, personal, business and political, is a series of lies, debt defaults big and small, marital infidelity, sex abuse, and who knows what else.
You can make a statement like that and angrily deny that you are a cultist.
You truly are out of touch reality - by a long way.
"They think Trump is a danger to the country, and yet they insist on supporting the only person who can prevent him from being elected. These can't be reconciled; I is very smart."
Even setting aside how dumb your argument is in this particular case, have you ever noticed how often you frame an argument this way?
1. So-and-so says he thinks X.
2. If he really thought X, he would do Y, because if I thought X, I would do Y.
3. But so-and-so is doing Z, not Y.
4. Therefore so-and-so must be lying when he says he thinks X.
You just never even consider the possibility that you're wrong at step 2. (Or, for that matter, the possibility that so-and-so has simply erred; to you, he must be lying.)
You forgot about the reeducation camps, and the mandatory trans-ing of all kids.
Worse, they forgot that Harris will, to quote Convicted Felon Donald Trump, “de-indust-ree-alize” the nation.
Wait, you Trump’s surrendering to the Taliban, Operation Warp Speed, $8 trillion added to debt, Fauci becoming a household name, George Floyd riots, and record amount of energy industry bankruptcies??? WTF????
This is like complaining that Churchill drinks too damn much, which is why you’re enlisting in the SS for the duration.
That's a good analogy of what's happening here!
The performative histrionics of Never Trumper 'conservatives' who are fully embracing leftist politicians and leftist policies were probably just Jennifer Rubins all along- in it for the grift, but if they can't run the GOP then they'll join the other side.
I don't know if you're suggesting Luttig has "joined the other side", but speaking for myself, I would happily vote for a decent Republican (as I have done for virtually my entire adult life) over almost any Democrat.
Opponents of Trump are not all leftists or converted leftists (at least I hope not!), although there are certainly some here who identify as such. There is no "full embrace" going on--except among MAGARINOs who have decided to drop to their knees in front of the Orange Messiah.
Care to share the name of a "decent Republican" you voted for?
Are you a Never Trumper who is "fully embracing leftist politicians and leftist policies?" Doesn't sound like it. I have no problems with opponents of Trump among the Republican Party or among conservatives.
I have a problem with those who are joining Team Blue, endorsing all of their moonbat policies and still calling themselves "conservative."
There is no “full embrace” going on–
We're in a thread of a blog post about "conservatives" trying to burn down the conservative political party while explicitly supporting leftist political parties and causes.
I think you need to be more cognizant of your surroundings when saying things like this. Seems a bit out of touch.
You confuse Republican and conservative. The MAGA GOP is not even remotely a conservative political party.
Trump represents what you're calling Main Street about as much as he does Greenpeace.
All Wall Street cares about is making money. They have no principles beyond that.
I think it was Milton Friedman that said something to the effect that the only social responsibility of a business is to make a return on the investments into that business.
Even before Gordon Gekko took that to its logical conclusion, business owners, investors, and executives had internalized that thinking. It never ceases to amaze me that Republican voters actually think that someone that could have been the model for that character really cares about them.
They don't. They think they are him.
"Trump, who himself shows little actual conservative values."
I don't want "conservative values", I want conservative policy.
William Buckley and George Wills were just pundits. Trump, faults and all, is a man in the arena.
It was George Will. I think you are confusing him with Chill Wills.
No, you don't. As you've made clear repeatedly, you want to be able to taunt your opponents.
"conservatives. Mike Luttig, Liz Cheney, David French" -- Not really. Conservatives voted Cheney out of office. French is widely hated among conservatives. I do not think Luttig has a following. He just hates Trump for reasons that have nothing to do with conservatism.
No; Republicans voted Cheney out of office. French is widely hated among MAGA.
Nope, Republicans voted Lizard Cheney into House leadership in January 2021….oops.
I'll give you Buckley. As for George Will, here's a 1986 review of one of his books by Sam Francis. Mr. Francis's thesis is that Mr. Will's "conservatism" is a mystification.
https://archive.org/details/the-case-of-george-will/mode/2up
Not sure how you can pass Buckley and hesitate at Will? I would suggest that Sam Francis is not the guy I would go to for a critique. He seems to have a dubious history and were he around I think he would be a Trump cult member.
He'd certainly have been one of the very fine people Trump was praising in Charlottesville. He was an overt and ardent white supremacist.
Do they realize that if people like Luttig get their way --- I will vote against them in every election permanently?
They asked me to hold my nose and vote McCain and Romney. Fuck the lot of them. They killed conservatism stone dead.
Weird how many McCain campaign managers turned into far lefties. Or how the former head of the RNC back when it was "really Republican" is now a quite lefty talking head on MSNBC.
Yes, we all realize that—were you under the impression that anyone here is trying to get your vote?
The fact that Donald Trump was the President and Commander in Chief most lacking in temperament, knowledge, judgement, and integrity any of us have ever known, isn't the main problem.
The issue is the percentage of Americans susceptible to the fantasies of such a narcissistic charlatan, while not enough to win a popular vote, is unevenly distributed enough to exploit the unanticipated minoritarian tilt of an electoral framework specifically constructed to forever block such as Trump from elevation to the nation's leadership.
I mean, I always knew they existed because I grew up with them (hey, Florida Man has nothing on Idaho Man!). But I never imagined that such people—exhibiting a particularly deadly combination of moral superiority and insecurity—existed in large enough numbers of the electorate as to not immediately reject even the thought of such as the so obviously unqualified and dangerous Trump.
The fix for that, however, is not to appeal to the populist, emotionally-obsessive, resentment, envy, greed, fear, and rage that drives the Trump base to their almost cartoonish lust for a Strong Man leader, for someone powerful to validate the greed, bullying, sexual abuse, racism, and xenophobia they once felt they should hide.
We are not going to win over that Trump base. What we are doing is working through and fixing the flaws in our particular flavor of representative democracy that are preventing the will of the consistent majority of American citizens—who reject the future Trump stands for—to be expressed in the principles and practices of our government.
It's not a certain thing—democracy never is—but I think we're getting there.
Is Mike Luttig A "Prominent Conservative"? That may have been true about two decades ago, but conservative is as conservative does.
I guess Sean Connery stopped being a Scotsman because he spent so many of his last years living outside of Scotland.
Indeed, no longer a True Scotsman. 🙂
Glad at least one person saw what I did there!
He’s Bahamian.
The Republican Party could never get too extreme for Josh.
Cleek's Law is an internet meme that says, "Today’s conservatism is the opposite of what liberals want today, updated daily". Corey Robin wrote a whole book, "The Reactionary Mind: Conservatism from Edmund Burke to Donald Trump" (2017) arguing this has generally been true of what calls itself "conservatism" everywhere and always. Luttig is a conservative, and at least moderately prominent. Blackman is a reactionary.
Burke was a Whig, not even conservative in his day. A false idol for American conservatives.
I agree. Why would American conservatives look up to someone thoughtful and interesting? It makes no sense. Catturd2 is the real idol for you guys.
Whig-ism is bad for a conservative party.
That’s absolutely right. Nothing is worse for conservative parties than abolishing slavery, expanding the franchise, and religious toleration.
Russel Kirk thought Burke was a conservative. But there do seem to be few constants in conservatism.
That fits pretty well with my emotional basis of politics: liberals are driven by hope, conservatives by fear.
The two top, perennial fears are fear of otherness (which explains anti-immigramt, anti-trans, etc.) and fear of change (which explains the phenomenon you're talking about).
Another, less slanted way of putting it is that liberals are driven by the desire to maximize their perceived upside, regardless of how much downside risk this produces, while conservatives are driven by the desire to minimize downside risk, at the cost of ruling out the absolute best case outcome.
Liberals are driven by love of perversion. There's a reason you guys think a man ejaculating into another man's diseased anus is the highest expression of human love and emotion.
Gay.
I used to keep a list of all the names this guy used, but gave up as not worth the few seconds it took every time.
Tiresome, creepy-way-beyond-weirdo blocked again.
I don't know who he was when I muted him. All I know is someone with a new screen name is (still) muted.
I do admit that you fellas who don't mute the crazies seem to be having a lot more fun...but at what cost, I wonder?
Using another internet formulation I’d say Luttig isn’t exactly a conservative:
Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
You mean like the in groups of BLM and Antifa who can riot all they want and cause billions in damage with few arrests and out-groups like MAGA that the entire DOJ has worked to imprison over a single riot with minimal damage?
Tons and tons of BLM rioters were arrested, and charged, and given enormous sentences.
You’re just a liar and/or puppet.
Anyway no, he means like trans people, who you guys are trying to legislate out of existence.
As has been pointed out many many times, the few arrests in 2020 is bullshit.
https://apnews.com/c51f66bd298157c52520ef56026e4857
"Associated Press tally shows at least 9,300 people arrested in protests since killing of George Floyd"
If you don't like the AP, feel free to do your own work. It's all over the place.
And nearly none of them were prosecuted. Alvin “I’m a semi-retarded negroid who hates whites” Bragg released nearly all of the looters with no charges.
More lies. There were many many prosecutions and long long sentences.
And Bragg wasn’t even in office at the time. But why are you bothering to respond to a racist loser/troll?
He’s the canonical “basement dweller,” as Trump would say. I don’t mind mocking him mercilessly.
That’s how MAGA got its start you know. Steve Bannon noticed that there were a lot of angry white virgins playing online video games in their moms’ basements as their only connection to the outside world… enough to form the dense nucleus of a retarded yet powerful political movement based on grievance and delusion, and especially delusional grievances.
The best way to defeat MAGA for good would be to get all those assholes laid.
Well here is the New York Times saying thousands of dropped charges
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/19/us/protests-lawsuits-arrests.html
Here is the Guardian citing a study that 90% of the charges were dropped against the George Floyd
protesters.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/17/george-floyd-protesters-charges-citations-analysis
Yes, this often happens when the police start issuing blanket arrests at protests — there’s not enough evidence to charge the vast majority of them.
Jan 6 didn’t play out that way because the police had better things to do than arrest people. They only arrested the people after the fact for whom they had evidence and could charge.
Lots of George Floyd protesters were charged, when there was actual evidence supporting the charges.
“Because of the former president’s continued, knowingly false claims that he won the 2020 election, millions of Americans no longer have faith and confidence in our national elections, and many never will again,” Luttig writes.
I do know that for four years, millions of Americans were told that the 2016 election was stolen with a few hundred thousand dollars worth of Facebook ads.
This was given the illusion of credibility by the federal law enforcement and federal intelligence establishments.
https://reason.com/2023/05/16/for-6-5-million-durham-report-finds-fbi-didnt-have-solid-dirt-on-trump-and-russia/
Nobody ever claimed that Hillary was the true winner of the 2016 election.
See the distinction? Or too thick?
They used similar language. Trump does not say that he won the 2020 election. He says that it was stolen from him, or that the election was rigged against him. Similar to what Democrats said in 2000, 2004, and 2016.
Trump said it was stolen from him by illegal votes for Biden being counted. None of Gore, Kerry or Clinton said anything close to that, nor did they act in any manner to steal the election.
https://theweek.com/speedreads/849983/jimmy-carter-says-trump-didnt-actually-win-election-2016
"I think the interference, although not yet quantified, if fully investigated would show that Trump didn't actually win the election in 2016," Carter said. "He lost the election. And he was put into office because the Russians interfered on his behalf."- President Jimmy Carter
Michael Tracey also wrote about this, pointing out a YouGov poll in 2018 showing that two-thirds of Democrats believed Russians®™ actually changed the vote totals!
Carter did not say that illegal votes were counted (or legal votes not counted). He said Russian interference persuaded voters. That’s sour grapes. It’s not anywhere close to being a million miles away from what Trump did.
He also said Trump lost the 2016 election.
Carter said he lost the election because Russian interference persuaded enough voters to vote for him. That’s not close to being the same as Trump claiming dead people voted, etc. Carter makes a debatble point. Trump spews BS.
To be sure, Carter concluding that Trump was therefore not legitimately elected is very bad. Had Trump limited himself to claiming Biden was not legitimately elected, then there would a commonality of sour grapes that wrongly stains the president (while still acknowledging that Carter’s sour grapes were based in reality while Trump’s was based in BS). But, Trump went way, way, way further than complaining. He tried to steal the election and block the peaceful transfer of power.
In no way did he try to steal the election.
Each of these was part of an attempt to steal the election:
1) Endorsing fake electors (there was no basis for having alternate electors since no state was legitimately in doubt, and in some states the electors illegaly swore they were certified).
2) Pressuring state officials not to certify (with no basis in fact to refuse to do so) and pressuring them to denounce the certification after they had (e.g., Rafensberger call).
3) Pressuring the DOJ to falsely announce there was enough fraud to place the election in doubt (BS, as Barr put it).
4) Pressuring Pence to unilaterally reject electoral votes.
5) Calling the mob to Washington and rooting for them for 2 hours while they rioted.
1) These were alternate electors, which the states rejected.
2) John Podesta pressured intelligence agencies to brief the electors in 2016, as Michael Tracey pointed out. Also, Tracey mentioned it was too obvious to mention what the electors were supposed to do with the briefing information they would have received.
3) Michael Tracey (along with so many others) also pointed out that the DoJ gave the illusion of credibility to Hillary Clinton's claims. I even linked to the Reason.com article about it in the comments above.
4) No different than pressuring intelligence agenciies to pressure electors to change their votes.
5) Organizing a protest in no way steals the election. By the way, the mob was mostly peaceful.
Other than #1, which is merely nonsensical — "alternate elector" is no more a thing than "alternate mayor" or "alternate president" is — this is all whatabouting (about an entirely different election) and based on false premises at that.
Podesta (a private citizen, with no authority) did not "pressure" anyone to do anything. Some electors publicly asked for a briefing, and he endorsed that request. Moreover, an intelligence briefing — unlike inventing fake votes — is not unlawful.
DOJ did nothing wrong in investigating Russian interference in the election, and it certainly did not do anything before the election.
Well, minority different, in that what you wrote is 100% fiction. Nobody pressured anyone. Not intelligence agencies, not electors.
Setting aside that there was nothing to "protest," an attack on the Capitol is not a "protest."
1) There is no reason to have alternate electors (when there is no basis for challenging the election) except to steal the election
2-4) That one transgression by Clinton (elector briefings) does not come anywhere close to what Trump did because it was a single transgression based on the fact Russia did interfere on behalf of Trump. Pressuring state officials and pressuring Pence to violate the Constitution, all based on 100% BS, is far, far different. And pressuring the DOJ to outright lie goes even further.
5) WTF is wrong with you? Did you not see the riot? Does it not bother you that Trump rooted for the rioters, instead of calling them off, for 2 hours?
"That one transgression by Clinton (elector briefings) does not come anywhere close to what Trump did because it was a single transgression based on the fact Russia did interfere on behalf of Trump."
Lefties STILL believe this lie.
"5) WTF is wrong with you? Did you not see the riot? Does it not bother you that Trump rooted for the rioters, instead of calling them off, for 2 hours?"
Feel free to provide evidence that he "rooted for the rioters".
And do you not know what "mostly peaceful" means? The Right did not fabricate the term.
I was making fun of Roger earlier for thinking that one violent death still counted as peaceful by coining "mostly peaceful trasition of power" and here you are embracing it! So so funny-sad.
And yes Russia interfered with the 2016 election, you have to be practically a flat earther to not believe in Russian interference. Good job dami.
As for the rest, it's the weakest whataboutism tea I've ever tasted. Briefing electors? How is that even a bad thing? At minimum it would depend on the contents of the briefing. If you're alleging that the intelligence agencies used the briefing to fraudulently mislead the electors, you're missing quite a lot of evidence.
The Mueller Report and a GOP_led Senate panel concluded Russia interfered on behalf of Trump.
Read the whole story:
And do you not know what “mostly peaceful” means? The Right did not fabricate the term.
When various media outlets started reported on riots committed in the name of Black Lives Matter®™, other outlets pointed out that 93% of the protests were peaceful.
https://thegrio.com/2020/09/04/over-93-percent-of-protests-were-peaceful/
That is roughly (within a few percentage points) the percentage of January 6th protesters who were peaceful.
When Kevin McCarthy called Trump during the attack on the Capitol and told Trump that it was Trump's people attacking and that he needed to call off the attackers, Trump responded, "Well, Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are." Spoiler alert: he did not call off the attackers.
Hilary Clinton in 2019
“You can run the best campaign, you can even become the nominee, and you can have the election stolen from you,”
Hillary Clinton with a bitter quote years after the election versus Trump stoking his actually deluded base.
Yeah, this is some weak apologia. But at least it doesn't show you for a 2020 truther.
“Stolen” is not the same thing as claiming to have actually won. Losers always complain about the election having been “stolen” by this or that factor outside their control… the weather, Swift Boat ads, the Supreme Court… but then they concede, because even though the election was “stolen,” they acknowledge that they lost the vote.
Trump still hasn’t acknowledged that he lost in 2020.
Get it? Or are you as retarded as Michael Ejaculacito and Roger "Master" America?
Trump did peacefully leave the White House on Jan. 20, 2021. Yes, he conceded that he lost.
Yes, he conceded that he lost.
In your dreams maybe, not in real life.
He DIDN'T leave 1/20/21?
You'd think that would have made the news.
He conceded that if he didn't leave, he was going to be arrested by his own SS detail. He didn't concede that he lost.
Trump does not say that he won the 2020 election.
Yes, he absolutely did and still does.
Editor's note: antisemitic moron is also a liar. Trump does in fact say that he won the 2020 election.
And so much has happened since then people forget we came closer to China nuking us because of Trump’s asshattery. How close?? Closer than before he lost which simply isn’t worth it because it’s nuclear war!!!!!
Nobody ever claimed that Hillary was the true winner of the 2016 election.
Clearly you've been locked in a closet from 2016-2020.
Please, enlighten me.
You can’t, because it’s a made-up MAGA talking point. The closest anyone came was Carter, already mentioned above, and even he was clearly saying that Hillary would’ve won if only <
insert grievance here
>, not that she did win.I think it's great how some folks disprove their own position so I don't have to.
"No one said anything! Except that one guy that I'm going to misquote!"
Besides that, I find your attempt to establish a motte-and-bailey is amusing.
So no, you've got nothing? As I thought.
The David French op-ed lists various ways that Trump does not further conservative values & how Republicans going “all in” (including out of loyalty to the head of the ticket) digs the hole deeper. It’s more than anti-abortion & net pro-life results.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/11/opinion/harris-trump-conservatives-abortion.html
It amounts to what “conservative values” mean to people, especially what is most important.
And, yes, Trump losing alone is not enough. He lost in 2020 but Republicans as a whole couldn’t quit him.
A few more Republicans, for instance, could have voted to convict him. They found ways not to, granted helped by a silly argument that Luttig supported (though to be fair, he supported other ways to keep him away from the presidency).
[No trial allowed after a president leaves office. Even if you buy that argument, Congress could have passed a resolution stating he committed insurrection and a law setting in place a procedure to enforce 14A, sec. 3 against him & others. This would have answered the “you have to enforce” argument & further helped to enforce it to address the specific needs of the times.]
“Conservative” can mean different things. So, it does turn on what you mean by conservative.
And, as others note, voting third party or not voting is not going to do it either. There are two realistic options — like it or not — and ultimately conservatives are going to have to bite the bullet there.
"He lost in 2020 but Republicans as a whole couldn’t quit him."
It's kind of weird to describe something people weren't trying to do as something they "can't" do. Yeah, in a manner of speaking people "can't" do things they seriously don't want to do, and are capable of refraining from doing.
I guess you could say that I "can't" saw off my arm, but I like to think I could if life or death circumstances ever demanded it. I just don't WANT to.
The vast majority of Republicans wanted to quit Trump (he would have been easily convicted by the Senate in a secret vote). They couldn’t quit him because they would have ended up like Liz Cheney. Cruz, Graham, McCarthy and almost all of his scyophants know he is human garbage. They decided to put their electoral future ahead of the country.
You're just hallucinating at this point. Or maybe by "Republicans" you just mean GOP establishment politicians, who might be as you describe, while I'm talking about Republican voters.
I know you don’t want to quit Trump. He opposes the people you oppose. Your “the Left” focus underlines your priors.
However, many Republicans rather not support Trump. The head of the Republicans in the Senate strongly spoke out against him after 1/6. Multiple members of his Cabinet.
And many more. Seven Republican senators voted to convict. Others, like McConnell, did not say he was innocent. They used procedural dodges.
These people are not just “establishment” Republicans. The people overall voted for them. Trump has a group of supporters. They don’t simply overlap with the Republican Party.
A segment of Republicans — we saw this in the primaries even with somewhat weak opposition — rather support someone else. Including closed Republican primaries.
And, some voted for Trump simply because they knew he was the nominee. There was no real opposition. As someone noted, Republicans didn’t oppose Trump partially since they were fearful of the base who supported Trump. Even those who would have survived if they challenged him.
So, beating Trump is not the only thing that the party has to do. The party itself has the have the courage and wherewithal to move on. But, beating Trump will be a start, especially since if he loses again, it is more likely he won’t be around four years from now.
I'm not even clear what you mean by "quit" Trump. I don't like the guy, I'd much prefer a different candidate. I just think he's not as awful as anybody the Democratic party would plausibly puke up, and certainly not as bad as Harris.
I'm certainly not going to be happy about voting for him.
So, what do you mean by "quit" Trump? That I have to not vote Republican just because the majority of Republicans disagreed with me about who the nominee should be? They've ALWAYS disagreed with me about that! The guy I favor never wins the primaries, ever.
"As someone noted, Republicans didn’t oppose Trump partially since they were fearful of the base who supported Trump. Even those who would have survived if they challenged him.
So, beating Trump is not the only thing that the party has to do."
So, in the end, your demand is that the institutional Republican party must find a way to beat it's own voters. Repudiate their own base's choice of nominee. Tell the people its survival depends on to STFU and vote for who they're told.
That isn't how democracy works, that's not how viable political parties work. If Trump has 80% support among Republican voters, the GOP establishment contriving to deny him the nomination would be political suicide, the party might not even survive as an entity if they did something that outrageous.
You expend more energy than almost anyone else on here defending and apologizing for Trump. Your reluctance seems quite cosmetic.
Another clue is how much your defense here as tellingly not been about policy, but about ‘tude, and anti-leftism.
That’s some quite airy, personality-driven populism.
It’s not a sustainable model for a political party.
I defend him because he's subject to an absurd level of lawfare, and over the top rhetoric, including outright documentable lies, and that offends me.
There's plenty to attack about him without having to make crap up, like his having praised neo-Nazis. But his foes never can bring themselves to just attack him as just another politician they disagree with. He's got to be some kind of unique monster, the new Hitler.
Well, what do you do when the new Hitler comes along? We saw what you do in Butler, that's what.
Seriously, stop it, and treat him like just another politician you disagree with. Because that's all he is, once you stop looking at him through the red haze of your hatred.
You never seem to actually attack him, just claim he’s sorta generally bad (but, you hasten to add every time, not as bad as those Dems!)
He’s not a new monster; he’s a nationalist populist demagogue. That’s a quite old monster, actually. Pretty new among US Presidents. (Jackson gave a lot of that up once he assumed power.)
I’ve never said Trump is the new Hitler.
Brett Bellmore, on the other hand, goes on about the Liberal Camps. You invoke Nazis in this thread. As the enemy Trump is fighting against (i.e. Dems)
What massive, blind, hypocricy. Physician, heal thyself.
I never seem to actually attack him? Man, that haze really is thick. I've attacked him plenty. Just not by echoing insane Democratic talking points.
Look, he has a history of cheating on his wife, that's pretty despicable.
He is guilty of sharp business practices, and lending his name to dubious enterprises that occasionally rise to the level of being scams, like Trump U.
He's a terrible braggart, in a really over the top way.
He takes being a fighter too far, he doesn't understand when it's time to admit he lost. Perhaps because of his over-inflated self-opinion he can't ever admit that he has legitimately lost? And he's way too willing to listen to people willing to tell him what he wants to hear, he can be pretty gullible that way.
He's become inflexible enough that he's not really learning much from experience, and as a result walks right into things he should see coming, like the fight with the National Archives being leveraged to prosecute him.
On many of the issues he ran on, he has no actual principled devotion to the right's position, but only adopted those positions to appeal to the right. This doesn't really distinguish him from your average establishment Republican like McConnell. On the bright side, unlike them he DOES understand the concept of "dancing with the one what brung ya", and generally sticks with those opportunistic policy positions.
In an ideal world, I'd much rather have President Rand Paul. In a somewhat less ideal world, I'd rather have President Ron DeSantis.
But in a world where the only alternatives are President Trump, or President Harris? Eh, it's not a hard choice, at least Trump isn't going all in on implementing a
command'opportunity' economy.See, Brett, this is why people say you don't attack him. That's not an "attack," Brett; that's a whitewashing. He is not guilty of "sharp business practices;" he's guilty of fraud and other dishonesty. And he didn't "lend his name" to some "enterprise" that happened to be a scam like Trump University; the way you've phrased it, he's practically a victim! He created scams and slapped his name on them. Repeatedly.
As career military (SMSgt (Ret) USAF) I had the honor of serving under five Commanders in Chief, and have since lived under the national leadership of four more. Of those, all but one sometimes made me proud, and sometimes disappointed me. Of those, there's only in I did not respect.
That one, Donald Trump, was different. I'd previously known of him primarily as a minor Kardashian-level minor television celebrity but was willing to consider that he might actually be smarter than he let on, with the arrogant, crude public persona mostly faked in service of his profitable reality show. Not the greatest thing, but not in itself disqualifying.
For me, the earliest absolute proof that he should never be under even the slightest consideration for President came when, as a candidate, he said the military should commit war crimes, combining that with a boast that if he ordered me to kill non-combatants—including women and children—I would.
No, I would not and I'm confident Kamala Harris is not. I would never follow such a person. How about you Brett? You’ve written enough here to give us some insight into your mind…enough that it seems nearly certain that you would. That’s what Trump does to people.
During his campaign, throughout his term, and since, Trump’s reinforced the world’s perception that under his reign, we wanted to be a nation where what’s-in-it-for-me greed and despotic might-makes-right power are valued over decency, integrity, and honor—and with personal blind loyalty to the despot you display, valued over all else.
And from early in Trump’s term, top military leaders acknowledged they ignore much of his direction to them, realizing that much of what he directs consists of non-serious, spur-of-the-moment whims that make little sense and contradict existing strategy or policy. Mostly, Trump would never follow up. Only if it came up again, would they try to put something together to brief him of the consequences.
And, while that was probably the best of bad choices, it set a dangerous precedent—indeed, that unique danger to the US tradition of civilian control of the military is just one more factor in the existential threat a Trump presidency continues to represent to the United States of America as a free representative democracy.
Donald J. Trump, the 45th President of the United States, never gave me the opportunity to respect him. He doesn't know the meaning of honor. He’s never once made me feel proud.
So, what happened to you? What caused you to end up here as nothing more than a dealer of oily, disingenuous, sycophantic defense of the president most lacking in temperament, knowledge, judgement, and integrity that any of us have ever known?
I just love being told by a bunch of leftists who is and isn't a true conservative.
You prefer getting told by Blackman?
Better than a bunch of leftists.
Not the question.
He answered your question, Peanut.
You think Luttig is a leftist?
Luttig just endorsed an extreme Leftist.
Xtreme. They're always xtreme leftists.
The right being so suddenly sure Biden was an xtreme leftist has been quite a site to see.
I had never seen him at any Federalist Society event.
The Federalist Society does not define who is a conservative jurist.
To be fair, Josh is quite young. I attended Federalist Society (founded 1982) events before he was even born (August 1984). It is therefore certainly possible that Judge Luttig also attended such events without Josh being aware of it.
It’s kind of like Pinnochio, just that it gets browner and browner, not longer and longer. Or maybe both.
“I had never seen him at any Federalist Society event. He did not offer any public advocacy. He said nothing about the leading issues facing the conservative legal movement.”
“He has organized a new organization that is meant to be a counter to the Federalist Society. All of his pro-democracy advocacy may as well be an in-kind donation to the Kamala Harris campaign. Formally endorsing Harris was a foregone conclusion. By what measure can Luttig still claim to be a conservative?”
Interesting.
https://reason.com/volokh/2020/07/31/reminder-the-federalist-society-does-not-take-positions-on-legal-questions/?comments=true#comments
“Critics of the Federalist Society often speak of FedSoc as some sort of collective whole–an autonomous institution that shares monolithic views, and can speak with a single voice. This conception is false. The Federalist Society goes out of its way to not take positions on legal issues. This openness is an essential element for the Federalist Society's existence. Members are free to agree or disagree with each other, privately and publicly. If the Society took an official position–that is, picked sides in a debate–then one member would be right and one member would be wrong. That sort of dogmatism is inimical to the society. And there are many, many positions on which FedSoc members disagree.”
“The Federalist Society avoids these difficulties by not taking a position. Members have the space to explore different positions, without violating some party line. I think critics of the Federalist Society have such a difficult time understanding–or believing–this position, because most other organizations follow the ACLU's model. For these critics, organizations can prescribe what shall be orthodox. And deviating from that orthodoxy–even slightly–is apostasy, and grounds for cancellation. That sort of dynamic does not work for the Federalist Society.”
LOL. LMAO.
To be fair, Josh never said that he'd attended any Fed. Soc. events...
Headline I'm pretty sure I will never see: "People Care About Something Josh Blackman Said."
Hillary is taking the stage!!! Shhhhhh!! Everybody STFU!!!!!!!!
Josh confuses "conservative" with "Republican." This is a category error. Conservatism is a set of beliefs and attitudes. The GOP is a political organization. The GOP was once party that promoted conservative ideas. It is now a populist clown show that doesn't believe in the peaceful transfer of power. That's not conservative and no conservative should feel obligated to be a Republican.
He also confuses "courage" with "going along with the ideological mandates of a cult."
The Democrat Party stands for open borders, handing out free money, and foreign wars. And prosecuting political enemies.
We had a peaceful transfer of power in 2021. All Republican agree with the peaceful transfer of power.
We had a peaceful transfer of power in 2021.
Lol, Roger, your state of delusion is always good for a laugh. How many violent deaths before you’d agree that a transition of power wasn’t peaceful?
Or perhaps you meant to say “We had a mostly peaceful transition of power in 2021?”
Also, how is it possible that you don't know the name of one of the two major American political parties? You're stupid stupid.
Not to mention that reflexive criticism of the other party is not a logical response to the argument that the Republican Party has lost its "conservative" bona fides.
The only violent death was an unarmed woman at the Capitol door who was shot by the Capitol police.
The transition of power was peaceful. There was a protest that delayed a vote for a couple of hours, but it did not affect the transition of power.
Ok so, you're ok with at least one violent death per "peaceful" transition. How many more before it's no longer peaceful? What if that death is, say, the sitting VP?
No, I do not think that policeman should have shot that woman.
According to Roger, the United States has always had a peaceful transition of power, meaning that only one person gets violently killed.
Regrettably violently killed.
Yes, regrettable. Not a reason to vote for Harris.
That's quite a threshold for what counts as violence, Roger!
Labels are transitory markers for argument.
Is this your argument against originalism? Sold!
I mean, they think David Brooks is conservative so...
Right, they say Brooks is conservative, when he hasn't voted for a Republican since 2004.
Blackman is spending his time on CNN. Perhaps it should be questioned whether he is a real conservative or not.
After all, this is the second time within the past month (I think) that he's brought up CNN and his time spent there.
Kick him off the party, Doug.
Ronald Reagan is the Platonic ideal of conservatism.
I would suggest that Luttig is closer to being a conservative than Blackman or anyone prominent in the Republican party today. They all hold positions that are about as far away from being "conservative" as it is possible to get.
Sure, that's Luttig & Company, except for the lawfare and embracing Democrat policies.
Blackman engages in a lot of spurious reasoning here, but the biggest oversight is his narrative for Mike Luttig. Luttig retired in 2006, worked with Boeing, and then (according to Blackman) re-emerged after January 6th, 2021. Blackman gives a typically cynical rendition of why Luttig re-emerged: it’s all left-wing hagiography of someone who is no longer conservative because Blackman says so. (Blackman neglects to acknowledge the just-as-arbitrary notion that he engages in anti-hagiography, rejecting the decades-long bonafides of a conservative because he dares not like Trump.)
Luttig didn’t drop off the map because he was no longer conservative. (FWIW, conservatives less out of tune than Blackman still thought about him; Luttig was potentially up for head of the FBI in 2017, and Ted Cruz mentioned Luttig as a potential Supreme Court pick in 2016.) He was busy working a very well-compensated job at Boeing. He very likely wanted to avoid the appearance of politics. Indeed, his coming forward in 2021 and 2022 may have been possible only because he had recently stepped away from Boeing, at the end of 2019 (according to a Boeing-published article, not that Blackman does research on these things).
The one thing Blackman’s article makes clear is how narrow the litmus test for being a Republican has become. It begins and ends with one question – do you support Donald Trump? – and is followed by cherry-picking either a hagiography or a condemnation based on the reply. Blackman may well be a legal expert in one area or another, but when it comes to politics, he stands for groupthink.
No, it makes more sense to say the Democrat Party has a litmus test -- to be a Democrat you have to support Harris.
Luttig has his own narrow litmus test in his endorsement. He says "democracy" 26 times, and will only vote for a candidate who is pro-democracy. And he defines that as supporting the candidate who never got any votes in any of the primary elections, and who supports jailing her political opponent.
As I posted at the bottom, 237 entries before me…
Conservatism isn’t exclusively defined as supporting Trump. I’m a conservative who is Never Trump. Many of the things Trump wants do (using big government) are not conservative.
Conservatism is also not embracing anything and everything Kamala Harris and her Democrat party want to do, just because the Republican party is currently enamored by Trump. Or demanding we destroy the rule of law (Section3 of 14A, turning misdemeanors into felonies, prosecuting the political acts of trying to “steal” an election) because the Orange Man is bad and it feels good to indulge our political hatred.
THAT is what is problematic about people like Luttig, or David French, etc and makes them not conservative. I’m not voting for Harris either (on principle going back to 2020, because she was part of a Judiciary Committee mob who accused Brett Kavanaugh of gang rape), but I don’t begrudge any conservative who does, as long as they do not cheer lead for her agenda, or hope for Democrat control of Congress. Divided government, like the filibuster, is our friend.
Right, no conservative would endorse Harris. And certainly not for the ridiculous reasons that Luttig gives.
Hey so you should read the comments you reply to:
"I’m not voting for Harris either...but I don’t begrudge any conservative who does"
Yeah, but we're discussing Luttig. Who, as it happens, IS on board with at least some of Harris' anti-conservative agenda.
Luttig is pretty hostile to 2nd amendment rights, and in Harris he's got a candidate much more in synch with his hostility to them than Trump. That's a reason for supporting her, but it's not a conservative reason for supporting her.
Piling her more litmus tests on the pile.
Hardly anyone is a true conservative to you these days.
Not 8 Justices, no President since Reagan and honestly not Reagan if you ever looked carefully enough to apply your many tears of purity.
No wonder you spend so much time on anti liberalism. Your towering antipluralism makes for a very small coalition.
Yeah, conservatism is a coalition. People who want different things get together to get them. I lend my aid in getting your part of the agenda done, you reciprocate.
This requires them to be at least tolerant of the parts of the coalition agenda that they don't value. They don't have to love it, but they have to be willing to pitch in anyway.
I've said that Luttig is a Wall Street, not Main Street, Republican. Wall Street Republicans don't much value the social issue part of the coalition agenda. And for a long while, Wall Street Republicans were in the driver's seat, and the social conservatives got bupkis in return for their service to the coalition. If Main Street Republicans managed to win primary fights with Wall Street, the party abandoned the seat. Republicans had nominated a majority on the Court, and Roe survived.
Now Wall Street is no longer ascendant. Main Street is. Does this cause Wall Street Republicans a moment of introspection, now that the shoe is on the other foot? Maybe cause them to reflect on the nature of coalitions?
Nope. They're all rule or ruin. The coalition turns out to have been a sham, the social conservatives were just being used, and now that they're getting what THEY want, it's an emergency, so much of an emergency that the GOP must die if Main Street can't be put back in their place.
You with your purity tests and gatekeeping and seeing bad faith and liberalism everywhere are not one for coalitions.
It’s a cult of personality, not a coalition. And what’ll happen post-Trump should be something that concerns you.
You sound like the literal actual tankies on other sites I go to. "These Dems would rather elect a fascist than a leftist!" kinda nonsense.
Again, it's you being against something first, and for something only as it aligns to what you're against. That's not sustainable.
It took a while, but in the 21st century under Trump, the R’s completed their decades-long devolution from the three-legged stool (of Business, Social Issue, and National Security conservatives) to a bouncing, erratic, monopodial social conservative pogo-stick of full, unreasoned, raging mob-based populism.
The MAGA populists’ dangerous resentment, envy, and rage kept growing, especially as Trump's followers realized his impossible promises weren’t being met, culminating with January 6th—the eventual R acceptance of that being just one example of how they now favor populist Caudillo authoritarianism—what St. Augustine called the libido dominante or the urge to dominate others—over a republic practicing representative democracy.
Yes, I was a de facto NatSec/Business R, willing to work in coalition with thoughtful Social Issue R's like David French, toward the subset of common goals we shared. But my streak of libertarianism prevented me from tolerating the fundamental theocratic authoritarianism that would never be satisfied until they redefined civil liberties (like Freedom of Religion) to mean Freedom of everyone to follow the precepts of MY religion.
Because of the inevitable dependence on emotion versus reason, I’ll never fully trust or vote for a genuine populist of whatever political persuasion.
And I'm pointing out that the three legged stool had at least one rung that wasn't allowed to bear any weight.
It wasn't that Trump's entirely possible promises couldn't be fulfilled. It was that the GOP establishment wouldn't permit them to be fulfilled. Actively opposed the border security they'd run on, too, for instance.
Nominally the GOP had been a reasonable coalition. In reality, it had been a bait and switch operation. And Trump's sin in the view of people like French was actually that he tried to fix that, he was actually TOO determined to deliver on campaign promises they'd gone along with for years but never meant to deliver on.
The very sad part of this is it’s true. The Republicans have been conning evangelicals and other social conservatives for my entire life. It’s really obvious from the outside.
But the so extremely sad part is that Trump is pulling the same con! He just changed it up a bit. In public, he says all the populist things you want to hear. But he’s not in it for you! He’s still partial to Wall Street. He doesn’t talk to them in public, but they’re on the same page.
Just look at what he actually accomplished as President. Tax cuts for companies and the rich and Dobbs. Dobbs wasn’t some populist victory, any Republican president would’ve gotten there. With so many Republican nominees on the Court it was inevitable. Plus look at him now ‐‐ he’s not pushing a pro-life agenda really at all. He failed to fix immigration, failed to build a wall, failed to repeal Obamacare, failed to get an infrastructure bill.
Anyway, what more evidence do you need that he’s conning you besides his incessant grifting? Do you own a Trump Bible, Trump Sneakers, and Trump NFTs? Operators are standing by.
Once again: Trump's sin is that he's a sociopathic lunatic with no redeeming features as a human being. There was no "bait and switch," Trump did not try to "fix" anything, and made no attempt to deliver on any campaign promises other than lynching immigrants.
Why are you taking the position that "Main Street" = "Social Conservatives"? I'm beginning to think that you don't know what Main Street is. Main Street Republicans are the moderates.
And, no, social conservatives were not "just being used." You continue to invent this fantasy in your head that the GOP wasn't trying to overturn Roe, even though they kept pushing to do so, and kept appointing judges to get there. And it was Mitch McConnell, not Donald Trump, who put the GOP in a position to achieve that goal.
MAGA is not well constituted to work with people with slightly different priorities; certainly compromising on priorities is right out.
They demand that everyone else in the GOP coalition bow to their whims. A mix of enforcing 1950s morality, tax cuts, and nationalism.
So far, where else could they go? It's a brittle coalition.
And then MAGA, as embodied by Blackman and Brett, shits on everyone else in the coalition of not having been appropriately submissive to the Real Republicans. Oh, I mean tolerant.
Meanwhile, MAGA is all in on 'deviate and you're a pariah.' MAGA is...not a pluralistic movement. Another way they're not very good Americans.
This is not a sustainable way to run a political party.
When has Blackman articulated a conservative position?
So much conservative when he said Alito is the soul of the Court, and Thomas is it’s brain.
Conservative, that’s the one that falls in love with men, not laws, right?